Evangelism...

[mark]

I recently had the opportunity to "sell" Ubuntu to to a co-worker - and it didn't work.

His family's home desktop PC had become so malware-infested that it became unusable. I gave him a bootable CD with all the utilities he needed to attempt a cleanup - and, barring that, disk management programs to wipe it out and start over.

He asked me about this "Linux thing" I kept talking about - so I gave him the Hoary Live and Install CDs.

He came back & said, "I like it - but there's no multimedia stuff." He was referring to Windows media, Real media and QuickTime media from the Internet. Also - "when I go to some Web sites, it says I need Java - what's that? And what's a Flash player?"

Folks, the quandary of multimedia handling needs to be solved. Most people don't want to hear about "Open Source" software - they just want stuff to work.

If I were smart enough, I'd work on the coding myself. I'm not - so all I can do is call out the problem and hope that better brains than mine will do something about it. But if Ubuntu (or any distro) is going to make inroads on the Microsoft deathgrip on the desktop, this is a situation that needs to be solved.

[sapo]

www.ubuntuguide.org

flash and java are non-free thats why it didnt come with ubuntu... and all the multimidia and codec stuff are also non-free, so you have to install it by hand...

[drummer]

The multimedia codecs aren't there by default because of patent/copyright issues or some such.. Ubuntuguide.org (http://www.ubuntuguide.org/) is a good place to start, Mr. Bass' Add-on CD/zip (http://www.mrbass.org/linux/ubuntu/) might be more user friendly having all the extras in one step-by-step install script (although I haven't used it myself).

[Leif]

Yes but ubuntuguide isn't an answer to live cd problems. Given the debian/ubuntu free software philosophy, it might be better to offer people another live cd, such as knoppix, which afaik handles multimedia well. You might not be evangelising ubuntu specifically, but at least you're evangelising linux.

[XDevHald]

It's actually a good thing that it doesn't come with it, reason being is because then it would not really a hands on get dirty type of desktop. Ubuntu provides the sources, it's just the matter of, how are you going to handle it without it handling you ;)

Most users run from linux because they're afraid of to much on their lap, or just can't stand the fact that it doesn't come user friendly like Windows does. In all words, if someone really wants to run linux - "Ubuntu" and really needs these things to run smoothly, then yes the guide is an awesome bible to that production for the user. But things don't comne with a silver platter to those who want things easy, like windows :p

Kudos on the evangelising to others about Ubuntu!

[aysiu]

Unfortunately, sometimes the old saying "you get what you pay for" applies to computers. Sounds as if your co-worker wants a Mac--totally GUI, totally not Windows-crappy, totally expensive (yeah, I've seen the Mac Mini with its barely-acceptable-for-OS X-multi-tasking 256 MB RAM).

Linux is an investment of time and curiousity. You get a fully stable operating system with wonderful and supportive communities, and you can have fun doing it... if you have the right attitude. If you want everything to work "auto-magically," then you want a Mac.

Clearly Windows isn't working for this guy.

So either he 1. shells out the money for a Mac or 2. buckles down and learns to love Linux.

I've put a lot of time and energy into learning how to tweak my Linux install. I know a few nuances of boot/grub/menu.lst, and etc/X11/xorg.conf, and enabling certain repositories for libdvdcss2. It's fun.

The other way you could approach it (and I've read articles written by people who've done this) is to make yourself part of the "auto-magic." You say, "Look, dude, I'll back up your data, install Linux, put your data back, and introduce you to Linux programs."

Then, you set it up for him so that everything works, and he won't be able to complain.

[Leif]

Unfortunately, sometimes the old saying "you get what you pay for" applies to computers. Sounds as if your co-worker wants a Mac--totally GUI, totally not Windows-crappy, totally expensive (yeah, I've seen the Mac Mini with its barely-acceptable-for-OS X-multi-tasking 256 MB RAM)..

Well, actually, all the original post said was that the guy wants multimedia to work out of the box, and there are linux distributions that do this. Ubuntu has a different approach, and those of us who use it are clearly ok with that, but let's not ignore all the other distros out there that cater to other needs, such as Mepis, and probably dozens more.

[aysiu]

Well, actually, all the original post said was that the guy wants multimedia to work out of the box, and there are linux distributions that do this. Ubuntu has a different approach, and those of us who use it are clearly ok with that, but let's not ignore all the other distros out there that cater to other needs, such as Mepis, and probably dozens more.

I use Mepis, and I still had to download libdvdcss2. I also had trouble using Xine for DVDs and KsCD for CDs. I ended up having to use Ogle for DVDs and Xine for CDs. I don't think any Linux distro is guaranteed to detect all hardware on any machine. There may be some distro out there (who knows which one) that will have multimedia out-of-the-box for his machine, but who knows which one it is?

[tread]

Maybe the live cd could popup a message after gnome starts, pointing the user to ubuntuguide.org for simple instructions on how to install multimedia stuff, and explaining in simple words why its not installed by default?

[mark]

My comments were not an indictment or accusation, merely a statement of fact. Obviously, I'm okay with the state of the desktop in Linux today - but there's a huge potential audience out there that isn't getting what they want/need from Microsoft and (I think) would go for a viable alternative in a New York nanosecond.

IMO, to say "this is Linux - take it or leave it" or "get a Mac" doesn't address the issue. If Linux is to continue to make inroads in the mainstream user camp, a better answer has to be developed. Otherwise, we may as well come out and say "Linux is too elite for you numbbrains - go back to Windows or your Mac".

As I said, if I had the smarts I'd try to do something about it. Since I don't, all I can do is kibbitz ("them as can, do - them as can't, criticise")...

[aysiu]

No, definitely. If we can get Linux to work straight out of the box for almost all hardware, great. A lot of it has to do with legal/copyright issues (libdvdcss2, for example), though.

I think we're almost there. Linux has made great strides with Mepis, Ubuntu, Blag, and Mandriva. It was a lot easier for me to install and configure these distros now than it was twelve months ago.

My guess is that Linux will be ultra-user-friendly before Longhorn arrives.

[benplaut]

<rant>
what alot of [linux] users don't understand is that when people say He came back & said, "I like it - but there's no multimedia stuff." He was referring to Windows media, Real media and QuickTime media from the Internet. Also - "when I go to some Web sites, it says I need Java - what's that? And what's a Flash player?"

they're not looking for how to do it... they're looking for it to be there, ready to use. I don' think linux should be a love it or dump it kind of thing. I think that it really should be that you love it becuase it works. No messing with jre plugins, no muddling through ubuntuguide (no offense... i love their work) to get mplayer- it should already be there!

People don't want to learn, they just want it to work.
</rant>

[Leif]

<rant>
what alot of [linux] users don't understand is that when people say ...they're not looking for how to do it... they're looking for it to be there, ready to use.
</rant>

When talking about hardware detection, I agree with you. Avoiding trivial things that should be setup correctly out of the box (dma, sound, etc.), I agree with you.

But when it comes to multimedia support, there IS a tradeoff that can't be avoided, as this stuff is proprietary. You want it to work out of the box ? Get Xandros, or some other non-free distro. You pay for it, it works, and it's still cheaper than Windows or OS X. This is not a *Linux* problem, but an ubuntu problem.

If you want to evangelize, ask your friends how they would like to pay for their multimedia support : cash or time ? Advise them accordingly.

[thechitowncubs]

Very true... things need to work. I'm sure if there was some work to get the multimedia installed by default, Ubuntu would skyrocket.

Is there anyway to get by this "non-free" stuff installed by default or made free, what is stopping that?

[Jenda]

Very true... things need to work. I'm sure if there was some work to get the multimedia installed by default, Ubuntu would skyrocket.

Is there anyway to get by this "non-free" stuff installed by default or made free, what is stopping that?
You will (hopefully) never see non-free stuff installed in Ubuntu, because it is in conflict with the philosophy of Free software. Ubuntu is very rigorous in this aspect, and that is IMO a good thing.
As for being made free, that is probably not that easy. Flash and Java are simply closed proprietary formats, and will therefore always (until divine intervention makes Macromedia and Sun GPL them) be non-free. I am no expert, but I think the case is similar with many other formats like .mp3, .mpeg not to mention wma., wmv. et c.

[benplaut]

I can't play dvd's or divx or realmedia straight off a clean XP install either, for the same reason. They don't ship with this stuff included either. You have to download or buy and install. So why should Linux be different?

Use what is free to use, or develop your own and make it available. :)

Fortunately, with Ubuntu, and Synaptic, it is quite easy to get everything working anyway! ;-)

good point... forgot about that...

haven't done a winXP install in ages. Win 2000 is the only worthwhile OS made my MS :roll:

[spednik]

With regards to the "it just should work" points, i disagree.

I think most people switching to Linux just exect it to be windows, but with different fonts and things.


People should research what they are getting into before they start. I looked into ubuntu for a while, so i knew, that right after i finished my install, i had to get the multimedia codecs, etc.

[Kyral]

isn't there a script that does most of that..........

Anyway. I preach Open Source and Linux anytime I get the chance (My extended family has learned NOT to ask what Linux is unless they want a 2 hour rant :razz: ) but I also say "Look, give me two hours. I will Set it up, install everything you need, anything you need at all." Now some like my sister are addicted to "name-brand software" (like AIM over GAIM, AOL ( ](*,) ) over Firefox, etc) so there is no chance for them, but for most of the people who are pissed off about MS' bull****, they just need someone to sit down and show them, or do it for them. The Linux Community, although it is still very welcome, needs to become "less geek" becuase the current image of Linux (at least what I get) is that its still a very geek thing to do, as in that the average person doesn't need it (might be true). I mean, why not have a "Let us do it for you" option in the installer. Apt already gets OO.org and a lot of other packages, how hard would it be to run another script into the setup routine?

Well, there is my take on the situation. VIVA LA LINUX!!!

[nocturn]

My comments were not an indictment or accusation, merely a statement of fact. Obviously, I'm okay with the state of the desktop in Linux today - but there's a huge potential audience out there that isn't getting what they want/need from Microsoft and (I think) would go for a viable alternative in a New York nanosecond.

IMO, to say "this is Linux - take it or leave it" or "get a Mac" doesn't address the issue. If Linux is to continue to make inroads in the mainstream user camp, a better answer has to be developed. Otherwise, we may as well come out and say "Linux is too elite for you numbbrains - go back to Windows or your Mac".

As I said, if I had the smarts I'd try to do something about it. Since I don't, all I can do is kibbitz ("them as can, do - them as can't, criticise")...

I do not disagree with you, but there is little Ubuntu can do today to make the multimedia experience better without exposing themselves to legal issues.
Even putting links in the menus 'download MP3 player' can be considered illegal (specially in the US).

It is Linux/Ubuntu who suffers from the effects of this, but the cause is with proprietary software and silly patents.

You may not be able to program around this, but do you see a practical solution to implement these features, without liability?

[nocturn]

<rant>
what alot of [linux] users don't understand is that when people say

they're not looking for how to do it... they're looking for it to be there, ready to use. I don' think linux should be a love it or dump it kind of thing. I think that it really should be that you love it becuase it works. No messing with jre plugins, no muddling through ubuntuguide (no offense... i love their work) to get mplayer- it should already be there!

People don't want to learn, they just want it to work.
</rant>

I respect your opinion, but how do you suggest that Linux/Ubuntu/The Community handles this?

None of these things can be done without violating patents, licenses or draconian laws like the DMCA (remember Sklyarov?) as far as I know.

[nocturn]

I can't play dvd's or divx or realmedia straight off a clean XP install either, for the same reason. They don't ship with this stuff included either. You have to download or buy and install. So why should Linux be different?

Use what is free to use, or develop your own and make it available. :)

Fortunately, with Ubuntu, and Synaptic, it is quite easy to get everything working anyway! ;-)

Indeed, and even with WMP installed, it still pops up "Unknown codec, downloading codec, download failed" when you load a Xvid movie. Not very helpful either.

[Jenda]

None of these things can be done without violating patents, licenses or draconian laws like the DMCA (remember Sklyarov?) as far as I know.
I don't. What happenned?

isn't there a script that does most of that..........

Anyway. I preach Open Source and Linux anytime I get the chance (My extended family has learned NOT to ask what Linux is unless they want a 2 hour rant ) but I also say "Look, give me two hours. I will Set it up, install everything you need, anything you need at all." Now some like my sister are addicted to "name-brand software" (like AIM over GAIM, AOL ( ) over Firefox, etc) so there is no chance for them, but for most of the people who are pissed off about MS' bull****, they just need someone to sit down and show them, or do it for them. The Linux Community, although it is still very welcome, needs to become "less geek" becuase the current image of Linux (at least what I get) is that its still a very geek thing to do, as in that the average person doesn't need it (might be true). I mean, why not have a "Let us do it for you" option in the installer. Apt already gets OO.org and a lot of other packages, how hard would it be to run another script into the setup routine?

Well, there is my take on the situation. VIVA LA LINUX!!!
Although there is a script for it, I agree that it would be nice to have that sort of option in the installer. But if indeed even thatcould be controversial, God help us all...

[Leif]

Although there is a script for it, I agree that it would be nice to have that sort of option in the installer. But if indeed even thatcould be controversial, God help us all...

Yes, it would mean trouble. One thing is people on the web pointing to where to get this stuff, but having it officially endorsed by ubuntu wouldn't work.

[nocturn]

I don't. What happenned?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sklyarov

Basicly, he created an Adobe Ebook decrypter that could convert Ebooks to PDF, primarily to enable a text-to-speech engine to read them. This was assigned work by his employer, Elcomsoft, and 100% legal in Russia (where it was done).

When he visited a convention in the US, he was arrested by heavily armed agents (he was just there to speak at the convention).
He was charged with circumventing a copy protection device under the DMCA (which has no meaning in Russia).

This case marked a sad day for the computing community for many reasons. Primarily because someone was arrested for breaching the laws of another country by doing something in his own country and by taking on an individual programmer, while the work was commisioned by his employer (who stood by him every step of the way to his credit).

Since this case, many people from the online communities regard the US as unsafe territory.
It is also interesting to think that a German Ubuntu dev could be arrested when entering the US because he helped package the patented MP3 format for his employer.

[bored2k]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sklyarov
I was not aware of this. That is a really sad and pathethic story.. I'm not going to get into U.S. politics but that is just sad.

[nocturn]

I was not aware of this. That is a really sad and pathethic story.. I'm not going to get into U.S. politics but that is just sad.

It is very sad indeed.
And it makes a good point becauseAFAIK the patent on the MP3 format has no effect in Europe (meaning that it would be legal to distribute playback software here).

[Brunellus]

The point about everything needing to "just work" is well-made; unfortunately, as many other people have pointed out, civil and criminal liabilities make it impossible to implement some multimedia features "out of the box" in ubuntu.

Flash and Java are closed, yes, but available gratis. Where attracting new users away from MS is the goal, I find it ridiculously self-defeating that these things are not BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to install--maybe with a CLICK HERE FOR FLASH SUPPORT link.

I think the OP's coworker might have been much better served with Linspire. In fact, I think that, at least initially, distros like Xandros and Linspire will lead the linux desktop movement--at least until licences and patent restrictions on multimedia formats are loosened.

[LongTooth]

The fact that multimedia does not work right out of the box is the major reason people new to linux tend to shy away from it. More often than not, a newbie needs someone to look over their sholder when first starting out with Linux.

Like the previous poster said, there are some distros that for some reason or other, multimedia does work right from the begining. I can not figure why some distros can provide this in their distros and others can't. As an experienced Linux user, but by now means a guru, I find Ubuntu the easiest distro to work with. ie, adding multimedia codexs, Java, Flash, etc. But someone new to the scene might not think so. It's certainly eaiser to add these than many other distros I've worked with.

While Ubuntu is my main distro that doesn't stop me from playing with others. Some new to me and others I've tried in the passed. If for nothing else to see what they have to offer. Some leave me befuddled and dazed as to why they do things the way they do. Slackware need one to delve deep into it just to get the scroll wheel on a mouse to work. The scroll wheel! My god! Why is it needed to go that deep for something so basic? But it comes with Java and Flash is installed!

With other distros it all works. Frugleware is a distro I'd recommend to any newbie if the install was easier. Why? All the multimedia works. Java is there. So is Flash.

Enough of my ranting. Oh, one other thing, the Ubuntu community is a great one. No better.

[Zifnab]

Unfortunately, it would seem that ubuntuguide isn't always up to date though. I eventually found instructions for linking the JRE from sun.com as a plugin.

Not the first time I've found it to been out of date either :( ...

[Leif]

Unfortunately, it would seem that ubuntuguide isn't always up to date though. I eventually found instructions for linking the JRE from sun.com as a plugin.

Not the first time I've found it to been out of date either :( ...

You're right, it does fall behind at times, but you do realize that ubuntuguide is an effort made by one person, right ? If you feel like it, you could get in touch with the maintainer of the guide, or you could go to the ubuntu wiki and add it there.

[poofyhairguy]

I can not figure why some distros can provide this in their distros and others can't.

Because some distros (mostly those that are mainly the work of one person- slackware/MEPIS) don't mind possible legal troubles. Ubuntu (since it has a whole company behind it) decided its not worth the risk.

[Jenda]

Basicly, he created an Adobe Ebook decrypter that could convert Ebooks to PDF, primarily to enable a text-to-speech engine to read them. This was assigned work by his employer, Elcomsoft, and 100% legal in Russia (where it was done).

When he visited a convention in the US, he was arrested by heavily armed agents (he was just there to speak at the convention).
He was charged with circumventing a copy protection device under the DMCA (which has no meaning in Russia).

This case marked a sad day for the computing community for many reasons. Primarily because someone was arrested for breaching the laws of another country by doing something in his own country and by taking on an individual programmer, while the work was commisioned by his employer (who stood by him every step of the way to his credit).

Since this case, many people from the online communities regard the US as unsafe territory.
It is also interesting to think that a German Ubuntu dev could be arrested when entering the US because he helped package the patented MP3 format for his employer.

Urhh... This is REALLY bad. And to think I am going to Alaska this summer...
Thanks for the explanation, though.

Flash and Java are closed, yes, but available gratis. Where attracting new users away from MS is the goal, I find it ridiculously self-defeating that these things are not BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to install--maybe with a CLICK HERE FOR FLASH SUPPORT link.

I disagree. "attracting new users away from MS" is NOT THE goal of Ubuntu. As Linus once said, it's just a pleasant side effect (ad destroying MS). I am quite confident Ubuntu has that at most as ONE of the goal, if even that.
That would be the main goal of the Microsoft Eradication Society. www.microsuck.com or the better, old address www.f***microsoft.com

Unfortunately, it would seem that ubuntuguide isn't always up to date though. I eventually found instructions for linking the JRE from sun.com as a plugin.

Not the first time I've found it to been out of date either ...

Then you should report that to jiyuu9.

[ddewolfe]

Has bunny had a stroke? His (her) pupils are unequalin size.

[nocturn]

Flash and Java are closed, yes, but available gratis. Where attracting new users away from MS is the goal, I find it ridiculously self-defeating that these things are not BLATANTLY OBVIOUS to install--maybe with a CLICK HERE FOR FLASH SUPPORT link.


For Flash, you already have this.
I don't install flashplayer system wide (because not having it saves you tons of popups and other junk.
When I need it (visiting a flash site), FF prompts me to find the missing plugin, locates flash and downloads it to my home directory. It works without a problem.

As far as attracting users is concerned, Linux does not suffer the marketing bug that MS has. Commercial products need to sell, no matter what. In a commercial setting, it can make sense to make bad products to increase profit (think of somehting like a lightbulb with an unlimited lifetime, it could ruin its manufacturer).

Free software can survive without a market share (or with a small one), consequently, we can take decisions based only on quality. If that wins over users, fine. If it doesn't, no problem.
I would hate to see good software ruined or ideals abandonned just for the sake of converting people.

[nocturn]

Like the previous poster said, there are some distros that for some reason or other, multimedia does work right from the begining. I can not figure why some distros can provide this in their distros and others can't. As an experienced Linux user, but by now means a guru, I find Ubuntu the easiest distro to work with. ie, adding multimedia codexs, Java, Flash, etc. But someone new to the scene might not think so. It's certainly eaiser to add these than many other distros I've worked with.


The problem varies for each package.
You can redistribute Sun Java legally, but only if you do not offer any replacement packages (like GPL replacements for Java). Ubuntu can not agree to this.

Multimedia Codecs are a different issue, every distro that installs them by default today does so illegally (even though the MP3 format for example is not valid in Europe AFAIK, they can still be sued in the US). Things like DeCSS could even land people in jail on US soil under the DMCA.

Some distros like Mepis simply take the risk, hoping/guessing that they will not be a big enough target to get sued. It is somewhat like playing Russian Roulette.