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simonn
March 2nd, 2007, 08:10 AM
I have been using linux for a few years as my main OS at home, a significant while before Ubuntu existed at any rate.

I used to answer questions here semi-regularily, but have got a bit bored of answering mainly the same questions over and over.

However, I have/had some time to kill and decided to have a read and maybe answer some questions anbd was shocked to notice how many answers were like this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=2234737&postcount=6



Don't try to do it yourself, just get automatix.


I am bound to be called a linux zealot for this, but how is someone going to learn if they just use tools like Automatix?

Possibly add a new repository, installing a package and possibly creating a symlink is hardly super villian stuff.

Same with the codecs.

Sure, it may be a little wierd for a newbie, but hey they are a newbie, things are going to be weird and frustrating for a little while.

Thoughts? Does automatix help users remain ignorant? Is this a good thing? Have I become an unintentional linux zealot :)?

ubuntu27
March 2nd, 2007, 08:20 AM
I personally think that Automatix and easy Ubuntu should be targeted towards user who are more experienced, for those who just want to save time...

New users should learn how to use their new OS.
And the only way to learn is by doing it themselves.

karellen
March 2nd, 2007, 09:07 AM
I don't know...I use apt-get & aptitude. However, I think that most of the user want to use an os, not to learn it. as long as they can click something on the screen and voila, music/video playback is here, they don't care...If for them the pc is just a tool, not a purpose by itself, why bother? :D

kelbizzle
March 2nd, 2007, 11:21 AM
I personally think that Automatix and easy Ubuntu should be targeted towards user who are more experienced, for those who just want to save time...

New users should learn how to use their new OS.
And the only way to learn is by doing it themselves.

I agree with you. I enjoy doing all those things... Installing codecs, and compiling source to get the programs I wanted. But now I'm installing ubuntu on so many customers computers that I use automatix or I tell them to use automatix. It works every time with no problems.

reza81
March 2nd, 2007, 11:25 AM
It can suck big-time if you e.g. install swiftfox & flash...

I think its bether to learn ubuntu properly

tom-ubuntu
March 2nd, 2007, 11:26 AM
Automatix is a nice tool.

I am using Linux for over 10 years. But I am tired of compiling stuff on my own, fiddeling around with configuration. I just want to use the OS, nothing else anymore. It should just work, otherwise I am loosing patient and don't care about it anymore. Got enough IT problems during the day to solve, no need for more in the evenings ;)

Kobalt
March 2nd, 2007, 11:33 AM
I always advise not to use Automatix. Instead I strongly recommand reading some Aptitude docs and using the repos...
Automatix is, after all, not far easier than Aptitude but it's by far much less reliable.
Instead of developping stuff like Automatix I would rather spend time developping Synaptic for instance...

viper
March 2nd, 2007, 11:53 AM
Personally if Automatix will help a newb get things like java, codecs, etc going, well that can be a good thing.
I have never had a problem with Automatix and would recommend it to people.

OffHand
March 2nd, 2007, 11:57 AM
Don't try to do it yourself, just get automatix.

This bothers me a lot too. People will just stay ignorant if all they hear is 'use automatix'.
It's not that hard to install most stuff... usually it is as easy as copy/paste a command.

Erik Trybom
March 2nd, 2007, 12:27 PM
I think Automatix is more of a pragmatic solution than a really good thing.

Myself, I had a lot of trouble installing certain apps when I first came to Ubuntu. Mp3, DVD-codecs, Opera (which was not in the repos then), Flash and so on. Now that I know more about the way things work I can see the problem with Automatix, but when I used it the first time it was a real saviour. I know that you should learn how to do it yourself and all that, but to newbies the most important thing is to get stuff to work.

I agree though that even if Automatix is useful right now, in the future there should be easy ways to install all those things without third-party scripts. I know that Feisty is taking some steps in this direction, but I'm sure we can go even further later on. Then Automatix will become a more of a tool for advanced users than an easy-installer for beginners.

Spr0k3t
March 2nd, 2007, 12:36 PM
I'm not a fan of Automatix. I tried to work with a computer system and automatix to see if it was at all possible to avoid the command line when setting up a Linux system with Ubuntu. While I did succeed in avoiding the command line completely, there were still some minor problems with the software installs. It was really simple problems that had to do with the way the software was installed. I installed NVU and Eclipse, both applications which should go into the Programming submenu of the application menu. NVU was correctly placed in the right category, but Eclipse was nowhere to be found. On the sister system (identical hardware), everything worked without problems using the apt-get or synaptic methods (former preferred). So instead of relying on scripts written by another, I'll be avoiding Automatix like the plague.

I'm no Linux expert, but I have learned quite a bit about the OS working with the terminal over any other method of application installs.

Adamant1988
March 2nd, 2007, 12:38 PM
Just use the documentation on how to do things yourself. It comes with bragging rights, whereas Automatix only feeds the head developers narcissism when you use it.

Obor
March 2nd, 2007, 12:59 PM
I personally think that Automatix and easy Ubuntu should be targeted towards user who are more experienced, for those who just want to save time...

New users should learn how to use their new OS.
And the only way to learn is by doing it themselves.

I used Automatix when I first installed Ubuntu and I liked that it made my PC usable right from the start. After few weeks I knew how to do things on my own and now use my own scripts when I need get things going after a fresh install.

What I'm trying to say is that Automatix didn't stop me from learning things but let me make my switch from Win less painful.

A lot of people want to use their computers and not spend time learning how they work in the background. I can fully understand that a busy person doesn't want to spend time learning an OS but just wants everything on the PC to work.

Sef
March 2nd, 2007, 01:00 PM
When I tried using Automatix, it borked my system. After that I just install using apt-get.

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 02:28 PM
Many threads about automatix these days !

In general the best and the more secure is to install things yourself following the official instructions, this page contain almost all you need :
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/RestrictedFormats

As for automatix itself, the main bad thing is that it makes some upgrades to edgy or feisty to fail in some cases.
So if you use automatix don't blame ubuntu devs if your upgrade fail.

stokedfish
March 2nd, 2007, 02:41 PM
I never had any problems with Automatix.

Actually, the opposite. I do not recommend to use apt-get or aptitude to install the codec stuff, Automatix works just fine.


People will just stay ignorant if all they hear is 'use automatix'.
Which makes sense.

Users just shouldn't have to bother about codecs and stuff.

It's Ubuntu's fault and choice not to make it easier...therefore the huge success of this script.

I'm all for it, really. Doing it the APT-way simply makes no sense in my opinion as long as there is Automatix...

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 02:51 PM
Did you really took the time to read the link i posted before writing this ?

I will quote the part about codec which concern any ubuntu release from feisty fawn :

Feisty Fawn 7.04 Development Branch

*

Click Applications → Add/Remove. Select Other and then select the Ubuntu restricted extras package. Click OK.
*

To play most DVDs you'll need the libdvdcss2 package from [WWW] here. This is a third party package, and not supported by Ubuntu. See Installing Software to install the file.
*

Users of x86 systems may also install some additional Windows codecs that are only available in third-party repositories.How this will be more complicated than downloading automatix, install it then run it then choose what you need ?

Other point, posts like "automatix works fine for me", "automatix didn't work for me" don't have any sense without any argument explanation on how and why you used it.

stokedfish
March 2nd, 2007, 03:10 PM
No, I didn't read your link, but I know about the automatic codec installation in Feisty.

However, Feisty is not even in Beta state yet and so far Automatix has been the best option.

Also, I doubt this change in Ubuntu will happen for ms fonts as well...

Henry Rayker
March 2nd, 2007, 03:12 PM
I don't think the use of Automatix is any worse than all of the "least common denominator" Beryl installation instructions (this includes ways to install your video drivers). I've never had a single issue with using Automatix (I install a bunch of stuff from it, though andI know, it's bad...but I'd rather spend my time elsewhere...if I have a problem in the future, I'll fix it) however, seeing all of the "Update broke my system. Now all I have is DOS?!?!" posts, I imagine Beryl and the shoddy installation instructions have a bigger effect.

I feel like Automatix gets chastised for being the devil's hand in Ubuntu a bit too often when there are other things who seem to have a larger effect.

To frodon, that covers installation of ONE library...the one needed for DVD playback. No mp3, or many others. The appeal of Automatix is that you use one program, once installed, to install many items. To do this via the repos, I'd need to go hunting for 3rd party repos, wouldn't I? I don't recall what all I installed via Automatix, but codecs, fonts, and more.

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 03:21 PM
I feel like Automatix gets chastised for being the devil's hand in Ubuntu a bit too often when there are other things who seem to have a larger effect.you don't get it, automatix install advanced things so when a noob install advanced things and try to upgrade to the next ubuntu version he has problems and it's where automatix is bad.
Users who know what automatix do will never have problems with it and they are right to use it.

It's why i always recommend easyubuntu over automatix for beginners because it install things in a way that won't create any problems when you will be willing to install the next ubuntu version.

So it's not a question of automatix being evil, it's a question of automatix targetting beginners and to require advanced tweaks to make an upgrade to the next ubuntu version to work without problems, it is paradoxal isn't it.
It's why somehow automatix is not for beginners.

To conclude, automatix is good for common linux user but not for beginners (just my opinion obviously).

EdThaSlayer
March 2nd, 2007, 03:21 PM
Just use the documentation on how to do things yourself. It comes with bragging rights, whereas Automatix only feeds the head developers narcissism when you use it.

:lolflag: Calm down, they are just trying to help ease the transition from Windows to Linux. :)

OffHand
March 2nd, 2007, 03:36 PM
I never had any problems with Automatix.

Actually, the opposite. I do not recommend to use apt-get or aptitude to install the codec stuff, Automatix works just fine.


Which makes sense.

Users just shouldn't have to bother about codecs and stuff.

It's Ubuntu's fault and choice not to make it easier...therefore the huge success of this script.

I'm all for it, really. Doing it the APT-way simply makes no sense in my opinion as long as there is Automatix...

More power to you but Automatix is a 3rd party application and apt-get is native and thoroughly tested by years of use. Besides that, it is not Ubuntu's fault that there are patent issues.
If you do not want to understand that or deal with it, maybe you should use Windows XP/Vista instead.

Henry Rayker
March 2nd, 2007, 03:42 PM
frodon, I understand where you're coming from, however...the guides for installation of Beryl and 3d accelerated drivers are also targeted at these same "noobs" when Beryl and 3d accelerated drivers are also "advanced things" without giving any detail into the fact that, after a kernel update, X will typically no longer boot.

I'm not saying Automatix is a good thing, per se, but I just don't think it's any worse than a couple other things (Beryl included) which have a MUCH better reputation. I was a noob when I first used Automatix...but I've come a long way since then. I think Automatix does serve a purpose for the noobs as a way to ease the transition. If I had to search for 3rd party repos (which are also looked down upon) just to play my music and videos I'd amassed over the years, there's no way I'd have stayed.

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 03:58 PM
I'm not saying Automatix is a good thing, per se, but I just don't think it's any worse than a couple other things (Beryl included) which have a MUCH better reputation. I was a noob when I first used Automatix...but I've come a long way since then. I think Automatix does serve a purpose for the noobs as a way to ease the transition. If I had to search for 3rd party repos (which are also looked down upon) just to play my music and videos I'd amassed over the years, there's no way I'd have stayed.I don't think automatix is bad on principle but just not good for total beginner. About codecs devs have hear the user feedback and there's now one package to install all the codecs from the add/remove apps, so i would say that from feisty this problem is solved (you will just have to install w32codecs and libdvdcss not a big deal).

For beryl and nvidia latest drivers we do our best to spread the idea that it is not for beginners, if you still think this message isn't understood then we can surely discuss this all together and find solutions to better spread this information.

What automatix did good and i congratulate it for that and also easyubuntu is to put in light the need of a central codec package to the ubuntu devs eyes. Now that this goal is reached i see automatix more has a tool for users a bit used to linux in general, so as i said i'm only against any speech that automatix is the solution for beginner or to make the linux transition because beginners will never understand why their upgrade don't work out of the box and say that linux isn't ready because upgrades fail.

Now for the automatix reputation here it has much to do with arnie's behaviour and not automatix itself and i won't comment this.

digTro
March 2nd, 2007, 04:00 PM
For me it doesn't really matter whether I use apt or Automatix to install. I just choose whichever is easier to install package XYZ. And IMO, using Automatix doesn't mean that it's preventing me from learning stuff. Even when I'm using apt, most of the time I just blindly copy-paste commands and execute them. I have no clue what happens behind the scenes.

Sunflower1970
March 2nd, 2007, 04:39 PM
I like Automatix. It worked wonders for me. Once I got my system(s) up and running it's given me more time to learn other things about Linux instead of getting frustrated with just configuring my OS to make it usable (nVidia drivers). As I get to be more knowledgeable I can see my use of Automatix diminishing, and me relying on aptitude, or apt-get.

In my experience, Automatix was a huge help, just as Easy Ubuntu was for others (wasn't in my case) as a noob. I'd recommend it to others as an option, but let them know there are risks involved. But there are always risks involved with any 3rd party software.

Bagboy23
March 2nd, 2007, 04:48 PM
The original post goes on the premise that everyone has patience and enjoys fiddling about with technical bits and bobs. This is far from the truth as average users who don't compile things every month just want an easy way to install applications that allows work to be done. Things such as report writing, Internet browing, watching movies and listening to music is simplified through Automatix and the like.

I think it's important to understand that not everyone finds the computing domain interesting, thus will want to do as minimum as possible to get some real work done on a computer. Also if it is a question about learning - People tend to learn things that are important to them and computing isn't always on the top of their list.

Somenoob
March 2nd, 2007, 04:59 PM
Installing video drivers in Windows is easy. When users switch to GNU/Linux they probably want the official driver so installing it without the help of an automatic installer can be difficult for them, and since they are beginners this will give them the wrong image of Linux and they'll think that every task is hard. So let Automatix/Envy/Easy-Ubuntu be a default, but inform them of other video drivers and traditional installation methods.

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 05:04 PM
Installing video drivers in Windows is easy. When users switch to GNU/Linux they probably want the official driver so installing it without the help of an automatic installer can be difficult for them, and since they are beginners this will give them the wrong image of Linux and they'll think that every task is hard. So let Automatix/Envy/Easy-Ubuntu be a default, but inform them of other video drivers and traditional installation methods.:confused: it is only if you want the really latest version.

Video drivers are in the repositories, it takes 2 sec to install without opening even a web browser.

Bagboy23
March 2nd, 2007, 05:13 PM
:confused: it is only if you want the really latest version.

Video drivers are in the repositories, it takes 2 sec to install without opening even a web browser.


Hence the need for automatic installers 'like Synaptics'.

frodon
March 2nd, 2007, 05:23 PM
Hence the need for automatic installers 'like Synaptics'.You can install them from synaptic since the beginning, the discussion is only about latest versions which are not always in the repositories.
An i would add that i saw on the specification of the future version of ubuntu that they will be automatically installed on a fresh ubuntu install, I think ubuntu devs can't do better.

Adamant1988
March 2nd, 2007, 06:50 PM
:lolflag: Calm down, they are just trying to help ease the transition from Windows to Linux. :)

If you *must* use a script to load bits on your computer, just use EasyUbuntu.

Lymen
March 2nd, 2007, 08:01 PM
I've been fighting my way through Ubuntu for almost a year, just because I don't want to use Microsoft... totaly out of principle. I had very little computer knowlege (still don"t) and I just wanted it to work. I would boot back and forth so I could listen to music, watch videos, see the flash websites etc... after much googling and searching the forum I found synaptec (yay!) that thing is great, but lots of codex were missing, or I did not know where to look.

I found Automatix on the ubuntu forum and tried it and it all worked great! now no more windos for me. I dont know how to compile, or what it means. copy paste command lines are ok, but I can never remember any of the commands. I realy like point and click. gimme pictures of what I need to load...sorry guys

I'm very excited about ubuntu and am spreading the word.
I just hope I did'nt cause too much damage so I can upgrade to feisty fawn when it comes out...

Great conversation!
thanks :)

FaceorKneecaps
March 2nd, 2007, 08:20 PM
I have only been using ubuntu for 4 months and when I started out I read about automatix but what happened was that I did some installations using aptitude and then automatix so I ended up with 2 versions of flash and java. Automatix seems like a good idea but I'm never gonna use it again. It just installs regardless of whats already in the system, and that didnt do me any favors, rather the opposite. Atleast Add/remove, synaptic, and aptitude communicates with the system so thats my choise from now on.

jackrobinson
March 2nd, 2007, 09:12 PM
I have only been using ubuntu for 4 months and when I started out I read about automatix but what happened was that I did some installations using aptitude and then automatix so I ended up with 2 versions of flash and java. Automatix seems like a good idea but I'm never gonna use it again. It just installs regardless of whats already in the system, and that didnt do me any favors, rather the opposite. Atleast Add/remove, synaptic, and aptitude communicates with the system so thats my choise from now on.
Automatix installs java from the ubuntu repositories... and aptitude would do the same unless you used from exotic third party repo.. There is no way you could have had "two copies" of java.
As for flash, Automatix uninstalls the version in the repositories (because its broken) and downloads and installs directly from the Adobe site.

jackrobinson
March 2nd, 2007, 09:13 PM
If you *must* use a script to load bits on your computer, just use EasyUbuntu.
easy ubuntu is a broken and extremely poorly coded application. Automatix is miles ahead in terms of complexity and sophistication

jackrobinson
March 2nd, 2007, 09:17 PM
You can install them from synaptic since the beginning, the discussion is only about latest versions which are not always in the repositories.
An i would add that i saw on the specification of the future version of ubuntu that they will be automatically installed on a fresh ubuntu install, I think ubuntu devs can't do better.
not everything that automatix installs is from the repositories (though it does stick to the official repos wherever possible). It goes for workarounds when it realizes that the Ubuntu MOTU often make a shoddy job of package management. I have said it earlier with ample examples that upgrade breakages happen because of poor package management by Ubuntu. Frankly I think the Automatix team should take charge of Ubuntu Universe and Multiverse to assure higher quality.

stokedfish
March 2nd, 2007, 09:54 PM
Besides that, it is not Ubuntu's fault that there are patent issues.
If you do not want to understand that or deal with it, maybe you should use Windows XP/Vista instead.
Of course it's Ubuntu's fault.

One can make codecs easy to install without running into patent issues. If you do not want to understand that or deal with it, maybe you should use gNewSense instead. They could have included sth like Automatix by default a long time ago and auto-run it right after the install of the distro.

But so far they've chosen not to, for no obvious reason...

Anthem
March 2nd, 2007, 10:24 PM
You know what I hate? People that hire electricians and plumbers.

I mean, if you're going to live in a house with running water and electricity, shouldn't you learn how to weld copper pipe and reconfigure homerun circuits?

This country would be better off if we got rid of electricians and plumbers.

stokedfish
March 2nd, 2007, 10:26 PM
No, you shouldn't.

I prefer spending time with my girlfriend instead of fixing codecs just to be able to watch a dang movie.

But to each his own... ;)

aysiu
March 2nd, 2007, 10:37 PM
Even though some of these threads are closed our outdated, you may find these reads interesting:
Should Automatix be included in Ubuntu by default? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=332926)
What has been your Automatix experience? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=123569)
A open letter to the Ubuntu community re: Automatix (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=207166)

My bottom-line take on Automatix:

1. It's an option among many options. No one option is the best option for everybody. Recommendations should be decided on a case by case basis, and sometimes it makes sense to not recommend one particular method but to details options--several methods that a new user could try.

2. It's a program. Programs have flaws. Programs can also be wonderful. There are people who think Automatix is the cat's pajamas. Others who think it's the cat's stinky sock. Has it worked perfectly for some people? Yes. Has it broken other people's systems? Yes. Use at your own risk--same for any software.

3. Automatix has had problems in the past. Some of the problems have been addressed by the Automatix team, but there's still lingering FUD about Automatix. On the other hand, it is, like many programs a work-in-progress. People should neither villify nor deify Automatix.

4. I'm going to try to state this as diplomatically as possible. Arnieboy has created a wonderful product for the Ubuntu community, but not everyone in the community finds it easy to get along with his personality. A lot of the hoopla about Automatix is related to interpersonal conflicts.

As for the whole learn-it-yourself v. have-Automatix-do-it-for-you debate, I think that's all about choice. Some people want to learn. They should learn. Others don't want to learn. Why should they have to? I'll say that learning has its upsides, though... especially when the Automatix website is down for two days...

saulgoode
March 2nd, 2007, 10:42 PM
Of course it's Ubuntu's fault.

One can make codecs easy to install without running into patent issues...

And yet even Microsoft (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=367933) seems unable to do so.

aysiu
March 2nd, 2007, 10:48 PM
Isn't easy codec installation a specification for Ubuntu's upcoming release (Feisty Fawn)?
https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/easy-codec-installation

OffHand
March 2nd, 2007, 11:03 PM
No, you shouldn't.

I prefer spending time with my girlfriend instead of fixing codecs just to be able to watch a dang movie.

But to each his own... ;)

My girlfriend can survive 5 minutes without me ;)

FaceorKneecaps
March 2nd, 2007, 11:17 PM
You know what I hate? People that hire electricians and plumbers.

I mean, if you're going to live in a house with running water and electricity, shouldn't you learn how to weld copper pipe and reconfigure homerun circuits?

This country would be better off if we got rid of electricians and plumbers.

I am an electrician and I know for a fact that 6/10 fires start out of electricity. Now, we electricians start none of those fires because we know what we do. You hobby electricians do start fires, and mainly cause you're ignorant, ignorant meaning a hinder for information. You are responsible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You hate skills you dont have. It's called a god complex.

Adamant1988
March 3rd, 2007, 01:30 AM
easy ubuntu is a broken and extremely poorly coded application. Automatix is miles ahead in terms of complexity and sophistication

and I would still much rather use it than touch anything that certain developers of the Automatix community have produced. THAT should tell you something.

Artificial Intelligence
March 3rd, 2007, 09:17 AM
not everything that automatix installs is from the repositories (though it does stick to the official repos wherever possible). It goes for workarounds when it realizes that the Ubuntu MOTU often make a shoddy job of package management. I have said it earlier with ample examples that upgrade breakages happen because of poor package management by Ubuntu. Frankly I think the Automatix team should take charge of Ubuntu Universe and Multiverse to assure higher quality.

That joke made my day! :popcorn:

Thank for the laugh.

Bagboy23
March 3rd, 2007, 09:22 AM
Ubuntu package management is the best thing about Ubuntu and a pivotal when selecting a Linux distribution. I always come running back to Ubuntu for its package management AND it's forum support. No other distro has this great a support.

Gerard Barberi
March 3rd, 2007, 09:31 AM
I'll say that learning has its upsides, though... especially when the Automatix website is down for two days...

I like using automatix as well. But, luckily I knew how to do those things manually. I had no choice Automatix was down.

I only use it because it's less time consuming.

Point, click, select, start... Go outside and grab a smoke.

ramjet_1953
March 3rd, 2007, 11:03 AM
I think that this question will go round and round forever.

However here's my $0.02 worth.

Because a lot of Linux users are enthusiasts, they scorn even a GUI method of doing something, even when it just requires a couple of clicks.
One only has to look at the "Absolute Begiiner" forum to see this. Some poor newbie just wants to get something going and he is presented with lines and lines of code, when just a couple of clicks in a GUI would do it.

Per se, I don't have any problems with the command line, I use it every day myself.

However, there are more and more people who are coming over to the Linux Desktop as USERS not computer hobbiests. They just want a system that will get their work done.

For these people I think that AutoMatix is a great tool and should be supported fully by the Linux community, as it can only do good to get these computer USERS on board.

For the geeks, there will always be the command line, so quit complaining, just because there is an alternate, easier way to do someting.

And don't use the old excuse, that if they use AutoMatix, they won't learn anything. Did it ever occur to you that many people DON'T WANT to learn how to use the command line.

They just want a sytem that is reliable, cost effective and runs the software that they need.

Regards,
Roger :cool:

frodon
March 3rd, 2007, 01:09 PM
I think that this question will go round and round forever.

However here's my $0.02 worth.

Because a lot of Linux users are enthusiasts, they scorn even a GUI method of doing something, even when it just requires a couple of clicks.
One only has to look at the "Absolute Begiiner" forum to see this. Some poor newbie just wants to get something going and he is presented with lines and lines of code, when just a couple of clicks in a GUI would do it.

Per se, I don't have any problems with the command line, I use it every day myself.

However, there are more and more people who are coming over to the Linux Desktop as USERS not computer hobbiests. They just want a system that will get their work done.

For these people I think that AutoMatix is a great tool and should be supported fully by the Linux community, as it can only do good to get these computer USERS on board.

For the geeks, there will always be the command line, so quit complaining, just because there is an alternate, easier way to do someting.

And don't use the old excuse, that if they use AutoMatix, they won't learn anything. Did it ever occur to you that many people DON'T WANT to learn how to use the command line.

They just want a sytem that is reliable, cost effective and runs the software that they need.

Regards,
Roger :cool:You don't need command lines to do what automatix do, just wanted to let you know, you just need to open synaptic ;).

This is an old myth that you need command lines to install codecs and drivers.

I think the question is badly asked, it is not really: is automatix good ?
bur more : When automatix is useful ? and who is the real target of such automated scripts ?

Tomosaur
March 3rd, 2007, 01:30 PM
The reason command line is preferred when giving support is that it's a lot quicker to type:


sudo aptitude install build-essential


than it is to type:

Click System > Administration > Synaptic package manager > Type your password > Click 'search' > Type 'build-essential' > Click 'mark for installation' > Click 'apply'.

It's nothing to do with 'geeks' or a disdain for the GUI - it's a very valid indication that the GUI is still much slower than the command line in getting things done. The person who requested the support isn't 'learning' - they're just getting their problem fixed quickly. There is no requisite for them to remember the particular command - but if it fixes their problem, then all is well in the world.

orb9220
March 3rd, 2007, 04:15 PM
sudo aptitude install build-essential

or other weird yes I said wierd commands with cryptic flags assume two things.

That I have the memory to remember this command in 3,4 weeks down the line when I need it.
which I don't. I am sorry but you need to think outside your age group. I had no problems with this when I was <35 but as the years come the memory starts to falter.

And because the command line is more powerful/faster it should be used instead of gui. No I don't need more power I need simplicity and ease.

I am sorry I have tried to remember and am finding I have to open a text file that is on my desktop and look up what I need to type. Since alot of these commands I might need to use in a "once in a blue moon" it is next to impossible to remember them.

And the second is typing. I can touch type at 30-40wpm with about 85-90% accutacy that is not good enough for command line, And since I don't use symbols much in my typing the requirement for them in commands slows me down even more.

Commands are Cryptic and unintuitive placing an even higher burden on memory recall.

Why are command line diehard's trying to force us to learn it when we don't want to.
Can you just accept the fact for good or bad that there is a new breed flocking to ubuntu and linux and they are not Geeks they are Users.

Can you just accept them without sneering or looking down on them just because they don't want to learn the term or vi or mount,etc...

I am glad the powerful command line is there and stays as an alternative for me. I just don't have the time or motivation to endless learning and tweaking as I did when I was younger.

And if programs like easyubuntu or automatix2 can do it for me I'll use them.

jackrobinson
March 3rd, 2007, 05:01 PM
You don't need command lines to do what automatix do, just wanted to let you know, you just need to open synaptic ;)
yeah? and search for what? "codecs"? ROFL..
you are a hobbyist.. 80% of ubuntu users are not. The ubuntu devs are learning from this brilliant concept called automatix (and shamelessly not acknowledging it) and have released a codecs metapackage for Feisty.. Automatix continues to teach while a small bunch of folks out here waste their time hating its creator.. now that really makes me laugh :lolflag:

Tomosaur
March 3rd, 2007, 05:03 PM
or other weird yes I said wierd commands with cryptic flags assume two things.

That I have the memory to remember this command in 3,4 weeks down the line when I need it.
which I don't. I am sorry but you need to think outside your age group. I had no problems with this when I was <35 but as the years come the memory starts to falter.

And because the command line is more powerful/faster it should be used instead of gui. No I don't need more power I need simplicity and ease.

I am sorry I have tried to remember and am finding I have to open a text file that is on my desktop and look up what I need to type. Since alot of these commands I might need to use in a "once in a blue moon" it is next to impossible to remember them.

And the second is typing. I can touch type at 30-40wpm with about 85-90% accutacy that is not good enough for command line, And since I don't use symbols much in my typing the requirement for them in commands slows me down even more.

Commands are Cryptic and unintuitive placing an even higher burden on memory recall.

Why are command line diehard's trying to force us to learn it when we don't want to.
Can you just accept the fact for good or bad that there is a new breed flocking to ubuntu and linux and they are not Geeks they are Users.

Can you just accept them without sneering or looking down on them just because they don't want to learn the term or vi or mount,etc...

I am glad the powerful command line is there and stays as an alternative for me. I just don't have the time or motivation to endless learning and tweaking as I did when I was younger.

And if programs like easyubuntu or automatix2 can do it for me I'll use them.

Again - you're missing the point. People with problems are not told to use the command line because of snobbery or anything, they're told it because time is precious, and we're all just volunteers here. Telling someone how to do something with a few simple commands is MUCH quicker than telling someone how to do something via the GUI - when he/she may or may not even have the necessary program installed to configure whatever it is he/she is trying to configure. It is not YOUR time we're concerned about, it is our own. I know I don't want to sit around trying to remember exactly how many clicks it takes to mount a hard disk via the GUI - I can just tell you the command and move on.

Once your problem is fixed, you can go about learning how to do it all via the GUI. It's just a learning process. If you've used Linux all your life and switched to Windows without taking the time to learn about the pitfalls you may face - then you're going to have the same, or similar problems.

Yes - there are times when something is difficult, or even impossible, to do via the GUI. This situation is improving. I myself am working on something now which should help a few people. The new users have to understand that those who help them are just people - very few of us, if any, work for a Linux related company, very few are developers, very few are anything other than people exactly like them. We had problems, came here for help - followed it through, and then stuck around. Most of us would have been told to use the command line, most of us did, and here we are. Those people who come here and say 'Everything is broken, and I don't want to touch the command line' are missing the point of co-operation and community. We can't help them if they're not willing to be helped. Describing how to configure your system through the GUI is horribly painstaking and slow, often completely wrong depending on how the user has their machine set up, and confusing to read and understand. A command is a command - if you type it in and it fixes your problem, fantastic. It's nothing to do with a preference for the command line, it's a vote against spending all day describing what the user should see on their screen.

Conversely - if people actually bothered to look through the GUI themselves - it's highly likely they'd find a GUI based solution to their problems. The real problem is ignorance and a fear of messing up - many people don't even TRY looking for a solution somewhere in the vast array of GUI tools available to them, before coming here.

frodon
March 3rd, 2007, 05:43 PM
yeah? and search for what? "codecs"? ROFL..
you are a hobbyist.. 80% of ubuntu users are not. Did you read at least one of my post ?

From feisty and further releases :
Click Applications → Add/Remove. Select Other and then select the Ubuntu restricted extras package. Nothing else to do. Show me something easiest than that !

The ubuntu devs are learning from this brilliant concept called automatix (and shamelessly not acknowledging it) and have released a codecs metapackage for Feisty.. I need to correct that, the concept is from easyubuntu, automatix was just a fork which is now a seperate project. So devs and also automatix have learned from easyubuntu, take the time to inform yourself please and congratulates the right persons at least.
The concept to acknoledge is easyubuntu and especially Keyes (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=39636)

The rest i won't comment.

az
March 3rd, 2007, 05:53 PM
I need to correct that, the concept is from easyubuntu, automatix was just a fork which is now a seperate project. So devs and also automatix have learned from easyubuntu, take the time to inform yourself please and congratulates the right persons at least.
The concept to acknoledge is easyubuntu and especially Keyes (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=39636)

The rest i won't comment.

Actually, there were discussions about such packages in Multiverse from the very beginning.

orb9220
March 3rd, 2007, 06:02 PM
Tomosaur

You are correct in that it is easier to give fixes in a command then telling a new person to go thru the menu's. I understand this appreciate anyone who gives time to give me the command.

And I agree that a large percentage of new person's are lazy rather not be bothered to even do a simple search in the forums.

There is always going to be a group that can't be bothered with learning coming from windows . And they will fall away and go back to windows.

But the original thread was
Automatix is it a good thing? and the impression I seem to got was that
"Why? you have the command line" kinda attitude and maybe I was overeacting a bit. Sorry. I just get the feeling from some that anything to make ubuntu easier is wrong.

Tho I lack advance skills telling people how to do something in the Gui I generally take the time and show them where the function is since I can never remember the command snytax.

Or just sharing threads so they can read the solution for themself's.

Tomosaur
March 3rd, 2007, 06:09 PM
But the original thread was and the impression I seem to got was that kinda attitude and maybe I was overeacting a bit. Sorry. I just get the feeling from some that anything to make ubuntu easier is wrong.

Tho I lack advance skills telling people how to do something in the Gui I generally take the time and show them where the function is since I can never remember the command snytax.

Or just sharing threads so they can read the solution for themself's.

I know how you feel. I think a lot of the bitterness towards Automatix stems from other things than the command line vs GUI debate. Without wanting to bring it all up again - basically the Automatix team took their ball and went home. The 'Automatix is unnecessary' statements are, in my opinion, a (not so) subtle jibe at the Automatix developers, rather than elitism or things of that nature. It's not great for the forum, or the new people's experience of Ubuntu.

jackrobinson
March 3rd, 2007, 06:19 PM
The 'Automatix is unnecessary' statements are, in my opinion, a (not so) subtle jibe at the Automatix developers
I totally agree and I think this should stop. Its a pity because even the forum staff condone it.

jackrobinson
March 3rd, 2007, 06:23 PM
I need to correct that, the concept is from easyubuntu, automatix was just a fork which is now a seperate project. So devs and also automatix have learned from easyubuntu, take the time to inform yourself please and congratulates the right persons at least.
The concept to acknoledge is easyubuntu and especially Keyes (http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=39636)

The rest i won't comment.
Easy Ubuntu was a very good concept but extremely primitive. Automatix took it to a much higher level and gained immense popularity because of the intelligent thought that went into its design. It continues to impress inspite of what a few of Automatix's detractors continue to strive for.. I think its a case of sheer envy.. and it makes me laugh as well.

jackrobinson
March 3rd, 2007, 06:25 PM
Actually, there were discussions about such packages in Multiverse from the very beginning.
Well nobody saw anything materialize while automatix actually made it happen.

aysiu
March 3rd, 2007, 06:34 PM
One only has to look at the "Absolute Begiiner" forum to see this. Some poor newbie just wants to get something going and he is presented with lines and lines of code, when just a couple of clicks in a GUI would do it. You're wrong.


Telling someone how to do something with a few simple commands is MUCH quicker than telling someone how to do something via the GUI You're right.

On a text-based online forum commands are always quicker, especially when you can copy and paste--no need to retype the commands or memorize them. They are also less likely to lead to error or confusion.

It has nothing to do with snobbery or the GUI. In fact, if people were anti-GUI, they'd never ask you to use Synaptic Package Manager.

billdotson
March 3rd, 2007, 06:50 PM
I started messing with Linux about a month ago and I prefer to install all of my things from the command line and I really only use synaptic when I have to to find the name of the program. In the terminal if the install gets botched you can look and see what the problems are and work towards fixing them.

barney_1
March 3rd, 2007, 07:21 PM
This bothers me a lot too. People will just stay ignorant if all they hear is 'use automatix'.
It's not that hard to install most stuff... usually it is as easy as copy/paste a command.

I see your point but copy/paste doesn't equate to learning. I would like to see Linux more universally adopted and for those that don't consider configuring a PC an adventure, there must be a point and click option.

SmiLey497
March 3rd, 2007, 08:04 PM
Automatix is an option and is not required. Also Automatix does not have every package you need to you will eventually have to use the terminal or synaptic. Automatix was great for when installing codecs, wine and my nvidia driver but i've also used apt-get, synaptic, compiled from source, converted rpms, install by Bourne shell, and just a couple days ago used the terminal to install flash9. Every command i learn i usually save it in a txt file so i never forget.

If you don' t like automatix then don't use it, simple as that

FaceorKneecaps
March 3rd, 2007, 08:33 PM
If you don' t like automatix then don't use it, simple as that

And that is the point. Same as the tv I might add, and see how far that ideology went. I think Automatix should be a choice and not an sulution. You people do know the simplicity of automatix and therfore you give it away. But what you are not considering is that the majority of people does not have the skills required. If you feel stupid, there are dumber persons inolved!

AndyCooll
March 3rd, 2007, 08:47 PM
My vote would definitely be that Automatix is a good thing. I'd say the same thing if this discussion was about Easy Ubuntu too.

When I started with Linux and Ubuntu I found Automatix to be a blessing. It helped me painlessly to get my system up and running to a standard I wanted in no time. I could just as easily have chosen Easy Ubuntu, I just happened to come across Automatix first. I'd come from a Windows GUI environment (like most folk) and had never used a command line. Automatix helped ease the transition.

As time has passed I've grown more confident with Linux. And I've gained a basic knowledge of the command line too. I still prefer a GUI for many processes, however I no longer have fear of the CLI, and I can also see why folk say it is faster and more flexible. Indeed for some functions I too prefer to use the command line.
And I've also moved beyond the need for Automatix too , As time has gone on I've learnt how to install apps, how to edit repositories, what additional software I need to install etc etc. So now prefer to install everything myself rather than using Automatix.

So even though I no longer use Automatix, I'll always be grateful to Arnieboy and his team for helping my transition from Windoze to Linux. And then I'll always be grateful to everyone else who's helped me move on and learn how to become my own administrator of my Linux operating system.

:cool:

riven0
March 3rd, 2007, 10:18 PM
I really don't understand why everyone is hating on Automatix or the developers. It's good for new users. I've grown out of it myself, but the one time I did use it, it worked great and made my life easier. How can that be a bad thing?

Anthem
March 3rd, 2007, 10:41 PM
I am an electrician and I know for a fact that 6/10 fires start out of electricity. Now, we electricians start none of those fires because we know what we do. You hobby electricians do start fires, and mainly cause you're ignorant, ignorant meaning a hinder for information. You are responsible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You hate skills you dont have. It's called a god complex.
:laugh: Ok, that's hilarious. You must not have seen the big SARCASM tag.

My point was that we don't expect people to learn to wire their houses just to move in, and we don't expect people to learn plumbing just to have a sink and a toilet. Using Automatix is like hiring an electrician... a better option for most people. Saying "It's important for people not to use Automatix so they can learn how their computer works" is like saying "It's important for people not to hire an electrician so they can learn how their wiring works."

The point is that most people don't want to be handymen. They just want their stuff to work. If Automatix gets them set up without a hassle, how can that be a bad thing?

A lot of newbies (me included, when I started on Linux) hose their system when they start using commands they don't understand. There's no reason for that to happen if the system is well-designed.

Anthem
March 3rd, 2007, 10:43 PM
I really don't understand why everyone is hating on Automatix or the developers. It's good for new users. I've grown out of it myself, but the one time I did use it, it worked great and made my life easier. How can that be a bad thing?

Absolutely right.

C-A
March 4th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I think its a good thing. People who want to use it can, people who don't want to use it don't have to. It saves a lot of time when you do a clean install. Also, new linux users who do a clean install only to find out that their graphics drivers are not up to par and that they do not have support for many codecs and plug-ins will (and do) appreciate automatix. Otherwise, it can be frustrating to have to learn how to install and set up so many things when all they want to do is use their computer. Use of automatix does not mean that they will never learn how to do these things on their own, but it does give them an option when they first begin to use linux. Also, if someone chooses to use automatix and never learns how to install all of the programs, codecs, and plug-ins on their own without automatix, then I don't see this as bad. People have different levels of interests in computers. People who simply want to use their computer without understanding much about it should have that option without being considered dumb or lazy.

ramjet_1953
March 4th, 2007, 07:21 AM
Originally Posted by ramjet_1953
One only has to look at the "Absolute Begiiner" forum to see this. Some poor newbie just wants to get something going and he is presented with lines and lines of code, when just a couple of clicks in a GUI would do it.

[QUOTE=aysiu;2241415]You're wrong.

Where am I wrong?
It's fine to make such a "God Like" statement, without qualifying it. What do you base it on?
I take the time almost every day to go the the "Absolute Beginner Forum" and see exactly this!

Regards,
Roger :cool:

nu2this
March 4th, 2007, 10:38 AM
When I first started with linux in general one of my biggest problems was just getting started.
The installation difficulty I had with Flash & mplayer almost caused me to abandon the whole idea of linux. Enter Automatix with it I was able to get installed the basic stuff, without it I wouldn't be here. That is why I recommend AX to newbies. Just like me I think they want to 1st get comfortable with Linux. When one migrates from windows to Linux let me tell you it's overwhelming!
I had to do things for what for me at the time was major stuff!! Firefox needs that Flash it doesn't come with it. Sure you have to install it in windows too but not like here. Yeah it's easy for me now but back then(with Breezy) that was a whole 'nother kettle of fish. Even with copy & paste some things didn't come out right initially. AX got it in for me. After that I was able to learn CLI & Synaptic on small stuff then got into the big stuff. There will always be those who are lazy,but IMHO more people get in the same way I did. AX is a good thing we all had to start somewhere. Not everyone here had the privilege to get in on the start of Linux(I didn't). So for those here that think AX is bad chill be cool!
Most of those that use AX stay with Ubuntu they'll read these forums then they'll try stuff out & then learn I did!
Finally, whether or not someone learns or stays lazy that's their choice isn't that a part of what Linux is about?

frodon
March 4th, 2007, 11:48 AM
Easy Ubuntu was a very good concept but extremely primitive. Automatix took it to a much higher level and gained immense popularity because of the intelligent thought that went into its design. It continues to impress inspite of what a few of Automatix's detractors continue to strive for.. I think its a case of sheer envy.. and it makes me laugh as well.Easyubuntu is not primitive, it is safe, i mean you won't have issue trying to upgrade to the next version of ubuntu that's why it installs less things and is beginner oriented.
Automatix is as good, it just targets more experienced users because installing latest nvidia drivers for example you need to know that after a kernel upgrade your computer won't boot if you don't re-install the drivers again. The same happen for some package that automatix install which creates unmet dependencies running an upgrade to the next version in some cases. This is not really a problem because it's easy to downgrade a package to get the upgrade working but if the users is a beginner then it can be problem.

I don't really understand why many of you like to turn the discussion to a "automatix is better than easyubuntu" or "automatix teach ubuntu devs the way to go" and so on, all these discussions are senseless for me.

Synaptic, easyubuntu and automatix are all good and useful tools but don't target the same kind of users all you need to know is what kind of user you are. The only thing which hurts for me is people advicing total beginner things like "you want drivers just install automatix !" because it's sure that they will come back here on next kernel upgrade saying they have a blue screen when they boot. and this is what i want to avoid not advicing automatix but more easyubuntu or just synaptic for total beginners. For the rest of the users (the non-beginners) automatix can be just fine and i have no problem at all with this.

Does anyone understand this point or am i alone with this?

Artificial Intelligence
March 4th, 2007, 12:04 PM
I'm with you, Frodon. That's the issue I'm worried about.

bailout
March 4th, 2007, 01:27 PM
It does annoy me to see it recomended as a first solution to every problem. I saw someone ask how to get rar support, which simply involves installing a couple of packages from the repos but instead he was advised to install automatix.

I think the old ubuntuguide was better tbh. It provided easy to follow instructions and was crucial for people like me who had little experience getting into linux.

jackrobinson
March 4th, 2007, 08:44 PM
Easyubuntu is not primitive, it is safe, i mean you won't have issue trying to upgrade to the next version of ubuntu that's why it installs less things and is beginner oriented.
Automatix is as good, it just targets more experienced users because installing latest nvidia drivers for example you need to know that after a kernel upgrade your computer won't boot if you don't re-install the drivers again. The same happen for some package that automatix install which creates unmet dependencies running an upgrade to the next version in some cases. This is not really a problem because it's easy to downgrade a package to get the upgrade working but if the users is a beginner then it can be problem.

I don't really understand why many of you like to turn the discussion to a "automatix is better than easyubuntu" or "automatix teach ubuntu devs the way to go" and so on, all these discussions are senseless for me.

Synaptic, easyubuntu and automatix are all good and useful tools but don't target the same kind of users all you need to know is what kind of user you are. The only thing which hurts for me is people advicing total beginner things like "you want drivers just install automatix !" because it's sure that they will come back here on next kernel upgrade saying they have a blue screen when they boot. and this is what i want to avoid not advicing automatix but more easyubuntu or just synaptic for total beginners. For the rest of the users (the non-beginners) automatix can be just fine and i have no problem at all with this.

Does anyone understand this point or am i alone with this?

Frodon: After all this screaming and explaining.. I have just one question... Did you know that Automatix installs the nvidia drivers from the official Ubuntu repositories and it would be the same if you installed it from synaptic or apt (with the same official repositories)? (so much for upgrade breakages)..... whats the deal here? really... Before you make a comment, at least LOOK AT the CODE ONCE or clarify with the automatix devs! Do you guys even make an effort to communicate with them??

frodon
March 4th, 2007, 08:56 PM
Useless provocation my friend, if you don't want to talk in a productive way then don't post, i won't answer this sorry.

jackrobinson
March 4th, 2007, 08:59 PM
Useless provocation my friend, if you don't want to talk in a productive way then don't post, i won't answer this sorry.
umm... so letting you know that Automatix installs the nvidia drivers from the official ubuntu repositories was not productive?

John.Michael.Kane
March 4th, 2007, 09:13 PM
This thread has run it's course.

Bottom line theres a tool for every job when it comes to installing software under linux. Use what works for you.


Thread closed..