Why "Ubuntu Women"?

[ekimus]

Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.

[kleeman]

This is a strange post- sounds like you are a bit nervous about sex roles. Personally I just tell my wife she is full of it when I think she is and I receive the same treatment in return. This is healthy! My wife is a very strong feminist and never expects me to modify my (usually coarse) behaviour :) :) and I don't expect her to modify hers. What's the big deal, we are all adults aren't we? Of course stupid macho aggro is another matter.

[endy]

From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.

[Teroedni]

Agree with Kleeman there

qoute
So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.
qoute


You dont need to care about that. It seems this is something you are making up.
](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

[poptones]

I rarely even read the name of the person I am replying to before replying to them. Not only do I not care if the person is a man or a woman, I don't care how old they are or even if they are a "friend" or not.

if you think you should not care... then don't. It's really as simple as that.

[kvidell]

I think what the OP is trying to ask is why did we feel the need to make a special place for our lady posters.
What makes them so "special" that they get their own forum. Why don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)

I wondered this originally but the mods posted some good reasoning for it (which is easily found since this forum is still comparitively small), and thought it was a cool networking strategy anyway.

Does that clear anything up or had you already gathered that?

And to poptones... Re: "I rarely read the name of the person who posted before": I rarely read the forum I'm in.
I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads".
I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Cheers,
- Kev

[poptones]

I rarely read the forum I'm in. I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads". I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Ditto. But one thing I DO check is "threads I am in." And on that note I hope one of the moderators sees this and can respond: why is this not a "quick link?" In order to check up on discussion I have participated in I have to click search, advanced search, wait for THAT page to load (I am on dialup), click in "member name" and type my nick, then click "search" - every single time I visit here - just to keep track on discussion I have participated in.

This should be a single click or at most two. Am I overlooking something here?

I guess I could be... I didn't even know this place has a "women's forum." Are men allowed? What's to stop me from making an alt-ID and joining the fray? I must admit it does seem a bit silly and, in that it implies women need protection, I find it a bit offensive.

ROTFL. See? I didn't even know I was in the women's forum...

[ekimus]

EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

[endy]

Re: poptones

Going off topic here but I believe you can if go your your "User CP" on the forum, click on "Edit Options" and then locate the "Default Thread Subscription Mode" you can set how you want to subscribe to thread you reply to or start. Then use the "Quick links" button and select "Subscribed Threads". :)

[primeirocrime]

I think this section of the forums is not inteded to be a safe environment for women or a place where women adress pre-concived representations of what is being a woman. It's more of a place for discussing-promoting-devise projects, ideas and concerns in Ubuntu but with a prespective of women that continue to be in lesser number in the IT world. Realising that there is huge population of men developing software and that not always they take a perspective diferent from them. It's not that Ubuntu Women is addressing GUI stuff like more pink and more flowers or watch your language! Just read a bit what the women in ubuntu women are talking about.

And I do not really see the need for every other spawn of ubuntu forums, we could go to a infinite number of option here and it's not about that I think. Ubuntu Women is not intended to be a kind of segregated place [«oh yeah, that is the girls club over there«]

Women are half of humanity, and in that group there are gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world contained.

This not to say that ubuntuforums main sections are male only areas [ with gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world]

[poptones]

Aha! I did indeed miss that. Thanks endy!

Re the other stuff... I just don't agree, but I also don't think it's worth fighting over and , now that I realize where it was coming from that's probably where this will end up. I looked at that other thread where PT outlines the "reason for this forum" and the very first post pretty much confirmed exactly what I said: this forum implies women need some sort of "protection" and the messages here would be particularly scrutinized in that regard.

I'll tell you up front I'm a participant in some other online communities many here would probably find pretty objectionable, but I am all about equality legal and economic equality. And that doesn't mean ignoring people's sexuality or their gender, in fact I believe this is the biggest failing of the old school judeo-western "feminism."

But in a this forum it was just never an issue.. or so I thought. Like I said, most of the time I don;t even look at the person's name, I address their views or their technical issue and that's it. But segregating people for whatever reason just focuses attention on the thing you are trying to "equalize."

Also... I remember now, a few days ago, seeing something about "ubuntu women" on the front page. To be honest I thought it was just a thread about babes, like the bsd babes ( http://wigen.net/data/bsdmascots/#). Go figure!

[poofyhairguy]

Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.


Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.

Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....

[panickedthumb]

Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.

Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....
I don't want you to watch what you say because there's a woman around. I want there to be a way for women to feel comfortable posting in every section of the forums. If you have to "be careful" then it's reverse sexism. I've just seen a lot of places that WILL be more sarcastic and arrogant and condescending toward women, and that's what we need to stop. I want people to speak to men and women equally.

I give a rats *** about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums. We thought it was a good idea so I rolled with it and brought Kassetra on board. Kassetra's opinions on the matter differ from mine to an extent.

[poofyhairguy]

I give a rats *** about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums.

Fine. I believe you.

[rwabel]

Fine. I believe you.
The thing is, I even don't know if the person's entry is from a women or a man or if I help a women or a man.
Most IMPORTANT, I don't care who the other person is (what gendre, where he comes from, etc)!
I agree, it's sometimes interesting to know more about a person.

Just out of curiousity, why should a women be uncomfortable in the ubuntu forum? It's about ubuntu, linux, computer etc and not about gendre!

I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!

[panickedthumb]

" I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!"

I haven't heard about any women here who feel uncomfortable, but in other linux forums, and tech forums in general, along with tech jobs, there's a lot of sexism. We just want the women who may have had previous bad experiences to feel comfortable here.

[super]

at least this thread answered some question for me:
where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?

consider me much comforted. ;-)

[ekimus]

at least this thread answered some question for me:
where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?

consider me much comforted. ;-)

that's also something interesting, in most "women"-forums i saw it seems that the only people who care about it (including me) are men.

there was also some post stating that this is about ubuntu (or whatever forum) not about women which I like more. This should be a technical section imho, not something where I need to care about political issues. but that's just a personal opinion.

I have to admit it's kind of a standard question I ask whenever I find a forum which is basically about technical stuff with a special women section. It's always interesting to hear the opinions (not starting a flamewar but talking on an somewhat objective basis).

so long
\ekimus

btw: I just convinced my girlfriend to use ubuntu :). One more user *g*

[poptones]

I finally figured it out: Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

We're Martians. And M/A/R/R/S.. needs... women.

Put the needle on the record when the song beats go like THIS!

[endy]

While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash (http://www.beagle2.com/index.htm) here too ;)

[dataw0lf]

While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash (http://www.beagle2.com/index.htm) here too ;)

I'd rather have it dumped on Mars then in my backyard. My 2 cents (I don't plan on going to Mars soon).

[Gnobody]

Yes, but are there any hot ones out there? :razz: :D :razz: :wink:

[gretchen]

Yes, but are there any hot ones out there? :razz: :D :razz: :wink:

Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on. A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer. It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.

[poptones]

Gretchen, may I offer something from the other side? I used to work online in the MSN "comic chat help" room. And though I am a dude I tend to feel more comfortable in the company of women and so I usually adopted a femal presence. In CC help I was "babelogue" (named after a favorite piece of music by my hero, Patty Smith) and so I know pretty well how that can be. If a guy even thinks you are a woman it can change the equation.

It really comes down to standing your ground. But there are plenty of guys who get belittled and put down for asking questions too - this is the plight of the newbie and it's not a male female thing it's a "geek" thing that still attaches itself to linux most of all because linux is so much more likely to attract those who are zealous in the old school "hacker ethos." It's that "wild west" attitude Poofy was talking about in another discussion we were having. But remember: even the wild west had plenty of levi wearin, straight shootin' wimmins.

Take solace in this: those who are most likelly to put you down for asking "newbie" type questions or would take the opportunity to try to flirt... well, there's a good reason they're doing that here, online: because in real life they're too geeky to get to touch a real live girl...

[endy]

No one can find out anything about you on the internet unless you tell them ;)

[darkmatter]

We definitely need more women. The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.

[manicka]

Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on. A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer. It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.
Well said, gretchen :)

[poptones]

The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.

Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads.

So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?

[endy]

I hear alot right now about not enough women being in IT, but I was thinking that maybe they just aren't interested that much and prefer to be high fly lawyers, brain surgeons and astronauts etc... If so what's wrong with that?

I never see any women digging up the road or working for refuse collection, should we try and entice them into that too? Of course not.

My point is if there is no discrimination by employers hiring women that go for IT jobs (which can't be if the industry wants more women) and the IT industry is healthy (it could always be better but it's not exactly dying) then what exactly is wrong? Seems like nothing to me.

[panickedthumb]

What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.

[darkmatter]

Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads.

So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?

I mean the lack of the "technically literate" presence of women in the forums. Although there are plenty of technically literate ladies out there, it seems like most do not actively participate in providing assistance. (My wife seems more comfortable asking women for help - heck, she doesn't even like asking me for help, but that could just be the fact that I get far to technical about things)

[Stormy Eyes]

From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.

Damned right. A great many women will, when take care to say exactly what I mean in order to avoid confusion, will give me **** about being "too literal". Having had a mother who tried to raise her sons to be gentlemen, I refrain from telling them that on my planet, words have specific meanings. Other women, however, seem adept at speaking male, and my literal speech doesn't faze them.

Luckily for me, my wife speaks male.

[Stormy Eyes]

why are women so special and the others not?

Because the loudmouths among the "fair sex" tend to make a big ruckus when they see us men get together and end up with a de facto "men only" group, whether it's Linux users, gamers, or cops. It's the same sort of thinking that will have a woman going for a "girls' night out" while complaining about how her man likes to play poker (or D&D) with the guys once a week. Some women think that they deserve to be treated like queens, and get snarly when the men in their lives think otherwise.

[manicka]

guys,

Some of you are doing a wonderful job of scaring off any potential female members of this forum. Some respect for each other (male or female) wouldn't go astray.

let's cut down on the aggro and be nice to each other :)

[panickedthumb]

Amen.

Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all.

Furthermore, let it be said that women are not more special than men, as ekimus mentioned. It's just that I don't think there are many men in the ubuntu, linux, or tech communities who feel their descriminated against because of their sex. I've seen first hand the descrimination against women here (though not often) and in other communities (more than I'd like) and even in real life at work, etc, and the aforementioned example of my wife in Office Max. Some women don't make it easy, sure. People are people and they're as varied as jelly belly jelly beans. More varied, even. But when there's consistent discrimination, I think something should be done about it.

Again, stormy eyes, I don't think you're discriminating against anyone (you're blunt and honest with everyone, and I appreciate that), I just don't agree with you on this point.

[jdong]

Umm, if you want to start a "Ubuntu Men" project, go ahead, and we'll list you here :)

Nobody's being discriminated against!

[endy]

What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.

I agree, that is wrong.

I think that it would be nice if in my lifetime men and women could truely live equally with only their abilities relevent to the task at hand being important, as opposed to any other discrimination whichever form it takes.

[poptones]

Endy, discrimination simply means telling one thing from another. Life is full of discrimination - do I buy a Ford or a chevy, do I run Windows or Linux, am I attracted to this person or that...

What PT and most of you are talking about is bigotry, not merely discrimination. Yeah, the world would be a lot happier place without so much of it... but look where we are now: in a "separate but equal" section of this forum.

People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.

[manicka]

. People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.

It depends on how you discriminate and the underlying issues. Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.

[endy]

The point I was trying to make is that only the skills required for the job should be taken into account. No other factor is important, not gender, not race, not disability or anything. If the person is best qualified for the job, even if it means a department full of people from the exact same demographic, then they should get it. Idealistic isn't it?

Anyway I also think the word you may have been looking for is prejudice. A bigot is someone who doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion when they disagree. Sounds like the average family member at christmas to me ;)

(Note to self: Proof reading is good)

[poptones]

big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Yes, it's pretty idealistic the scenario you describe. For one, because we are all human and therefore subject to a thousand different emotional predjudices. Example: applicant A has a college degree with great honors and several years experience. Applicant B has no degree but a few more years of experience. The boss also was a "self made man." Applicant A is a woman. Applicant B is a man. Applicant B gets the job because the boss feels more akin to this person. The fact he is a man and the other a woman has nothing to do with it, it's the common experience the two share as self motivated entrepreneurial types who choose to work "outside the system" that makes the decision. Sharing common experiences is an important factor in team building - but things are not likely to appear so "understandable" to the other applicant.

Just a few panels ago in this very thread someone was talking about the way men and women use language. People are different, and that is going to impact the way we deal with one another. It's (at best) naive to pretend things can be any other way so long as we continue to be human beings. Be confident and proud in your person and others will respect that - and them that don't won't respect anyone including themselves anyway... why allow someone like that to hold power over you?

[poptones]

Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.

Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.

[Stormy Eyes]

Amen.

Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all.

Fair enough. It's not just the more obnoxious women, the ones who expect royal treatment at all times, that are at fault. I certainly didn't mean to imply that women deserve all the blame.

There's plenty of crow for the men to eat. There are guys who, for whatever reason, feel threatened by the presence of women in what used to be a "guys only" club. Add competence on the part of the women, and you may get insecure guys who are probably thinking, "Damn, this woman's as good as I am. She doesn't need me, but I need to be needed, so I'll cut her down to size."

Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image.

[manicka]

I'd like to request that this thread be closed before it gets out of hand.

[panickedthumb]

"Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image."

Amen. That's the issue at hand I believe, or at least one issue at the core of the problems.

This section of the forums isn't a segregation. Most of us in here at this point are men. If this were a "no-boys-allowed" section, and if there were no women in the other parts of the forum, then I'd agree with this being a problem. As it is, this is no more segregation than posting topics about backports in the backports section. One major concern tsjoklat and I had when creating the idea for this was making sure segregation doesn't become a problem.

poptones, yes, I think sexism is overdiagnosed, just like ADD in kids. People like to use it because it's an easy answer. However it does exist and we're trying to work it out.

manicka, I understand your concern about this thread being closed, but I want to attempt to alleviate concerns as best I can before closing it. lets all just make a conscious effort to not let the thread get out of hand. :)

[aveline]

I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two? In this one thread I've seen hm... *counts..* 5 posts I find either a) intimidating b) rude or c) downright stupid... and some of you wonder why women have a hard time posting on technical lists/linux forums? Panicked thumb "gets it" as do a few others here...but for the rest...you don't seem to understand.

I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things. Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period. Not all of us do & I'm certainly putting my own little *** out here posting this & saying what I have. But then I've dealt with men far more than women and seen alot worse behaviours from grown & teen males so my skins a lil thicker than maybe some womens. *The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*

sigh I'm rambling... so I'm gonna shut up now.

aveline

[panickedthumb]

aveline-- congrats on coming out, especially since you made it through the (I imagine) horrid taunting of younger and more immature men. You're doubly screwed I'd imagine, because not only do you get the "stupid girl" comments but you probably get a lot of "OMG can I watch?" crap too.

I do speak literally, but I think I have a good grasp of language, and sometimes what seems to be most literal isn't the best way to get a point across. Language is meant to be understood, and the best way to get someone to understand is the way you should say that. So I'm rambling now too. Point being, every person, not just every gender or sex, speaks and understands differently, so clarity is important and understanding is important. Sorry if my clarity is failing me, it's after 3 am.

Do try to understand people who handle this situation poorly. Tempers get heated when a controversial topic such as this comes up, but it's an important one.

[regeya]

Lamest. Thread. EVAR.

Guys, if you're so insecure that you need to cut women down to size to feel superior...welcome to the 21st century. Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'...welcome to the 21st century. Both groups, lock yourselves in a room and try to catch up with the rest of us.

[panickedthumb]

"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"

And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"

EDIT: sorry if that was too over the top. It's just a bit frustrating when I've said repeatedly that this is to help women be comfortable with integrating with the community, and hell, even help men feel more comfortable with women integrating into the community if the case presents itself. There's no special place to play.

[Knome_fan]

http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg

[aveline]

"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"

And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"

*falls over laughing*... so true... hehe

oh and ya I got alot of the "can I watch!?" stuff...among other stuff. *sighs* Believe me you would not wanna hear some of the stuff I've gotten because of my sexual prefs...thats not even getting into some of hte other stuff in my life.

Ty for the welcome Thumb. Its appreciated.

aveline

[panickedthumb]

http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg
That's one of the most varied groups of people I've ever seen *L*

[senorcheaposgato]

Alright, here's my two cents.

first cent: This isn't about elitism, segregation, private clubs, or sexism.

second cent: This is about comfort in what is, unfortunately, a male-dominated sphere.

For the past year, I've worked at a job that involves selling electronics--networking, drives, printers, digital cameras...standard fare computers and accessories, you know what I mean. And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology. (DISCLAIMER: Not all customers have this predjudice, and some customers are just assholes to everyone. I'm not making a blanket statement, I'm simply saying that it exists.) In my experience, most men would prefer to talk to another man about their technology woes; similarly, most women prefer to talk to another woman.

In extreme cases, I have dealt with customers who are looking to buy their first computer/set up their first network who say they don't need my help with anything, but could I bring over one of the male associates? I pride myself on the fact that I know what I'm talking about most of the time...I also know enough to ask for help when I need it. I bust my *** at my job, but that kind of lack of respect makes me really, really happy that I'm done with them in 11 days.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that the women (or female impersonators) involved in this project aren't doing it to feel special or separate. I really do believe that it's comfort. For me, just knowing that there are at least a few other women who use Ubuntu and are on the forums is encouraging. Look, isn't the entire Ubuntu forum (or any forum) a group based around a common interest? This isn't a threat to anyone. This is another place to discuss...whatever. Who knows. As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above. They're still people.

Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals. Or some animals. You get the point.

[poptones]

And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology.

The real irony there is so much of it is made by women. Every electronic assembly line I have ever seen has been predominantly staffed by women. When you see the Chinese factories on tv, who are the workers? Mostly women.

When I was first starting out professionally some twenty-odd years ago I had a boss who I love dearly to this day. He was awesome - supportive, understanding - a true friend. He valued my intellect and always stood up for me when the bean counters would try to get me canned because I wasn't typical engineer material. And one of my most shocking memories of him was once when I was overdue on a project and under real pressure to deliver a prototype I had spent the day soldering components to my one and only copy of a printed circuit board that had just come in. Ordinarily I would have given it to our line boss who would, in turn, have given it to his best tech to assemble, but I felt particularly pressured to get everything done "my way" - even though a line tech, who did this stuff for hours every day, would have been able to assemble the board quicker.

So he comes over to me in the afternoon and asks "did you get the prototype debugged yet? " and when I said no and explained why he asked "why the hell did you spend half the day putting it together? That's women's work..."

[endy]

<snip>

As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above. They're still people.

Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals. Or some animals. You get the point.

Hey, I'm a vegetable you insensative clod! I also think I saw a few animals roaming around here too... Anyway, if those men don't want your help because you're a woman then that's their loss. Really, how pathetic. Also I notice your location says your in the USA, I wonder if any girls from other countries could share their experiences. I wonder if this is more common in the states right now?

In reply to poptones: I'm sure you realise what I said was wishful thinking, I don't ever expect to see true equality in the world after all, we're screwed from the start; we're only human ;) However I like to think in terms of "Aim for the stars and you'll make it to the moon."

A very interesting topic so far and so I hope no one forces it to get closed.

[Stormy Eyes]

I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two?

Welcome. Don't mind me; I can be harsh at times, but I try only to be harsh with people who deserve it -- regardless of gender.

I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things.

I won't deny that sexism exists. I try not to indulge in it, myself, because my parents taught me that it's not the gentlemanly thing to do. But if being white, blue-eyed, and male confers privileges, you can be damned sure that I am going to take advantage. I'm out for myself, you see, and I try to play the hand life's dealt me with as much panache as I can muster.

Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period.

And some men (myself included), find womens' attitudes intimidating. What would you think and feel if you wanted to earn somebody's respect only to find out that nothing you could do would ever be good enough?

Now, I'm a man and I like women, but there are too many women who insist on telling me something's wrong and then giving me the cold shoulder when I offer to help. There are too many women who either belabor the obvious, repeat themselves ad nauseum, or just won't get to the frigging point.

Of course, being a man, I probably just don't understand women. But I'm trying, which is more than can be said for many women when it comes to men. Now, being a man and something of a romantic, I am going to do things that may piss some women off. I am going to hold the door for you. I am going to speak literally and precisely, and if you say something that doesn't quite make sense to me, I am going to try to figure out exactly what you mean. I will smile at you if I think you're pretty.

What I won't do is ask you to find a man to answer my question if you're capable of answering it yourself. Nor will I deliberately patronise you. Catch me doing it, and I'll apologise. And, if you'll pardon my Arabic, I will assume that you know your **** until you prove otherwise.

*The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*

You're braver than I am. If I wasn't straight, I'd do my best to keep it on the down low. I wouldn't tell strangers, and I certainly wouldn't tell my family unless they asked me point-blank if so-and-so was a lover and not just a friend. And I certainly wouldn't tell brat gamers who aren't man enough to lose gracefully, but instead call superior players "faggots".

Personally, I don't care if you like men or women. It's none of my business, and I certainly won't ask if I can watch. If I wanted to watch two women playing together, I'd rent a porno.

[senorcheaposgato]

The real irony there is so much of it is made by women.

Yes, in fact, it is. I can't argue that. Unfortunately, it is made by women in a manufacturing sense. While assembly lines may be staffed in large part by women, how many are involved in the creative process? Unfortunately, I think we all know how small that number is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way belittling their contribution. Theory is all well and good, but without the product, it's not too much use. However, I do find it unfortunate that the production seems to be, as your boss said, perceived as "women's work." Hopefully that kind of attitude is changing.

The bottom line is that women are a marginalized group within technology innovation. I think all of us have a variety of theories as to why this is; for myself, I see it in terms of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Bear with me here, I'll try to explain.

Ok, this is a theory that I hold to be true in a language/educational sense. Take reading, for example. In the US, kids are expected to learn the basics of reading in kindergarden, and refine those skills over the next several years. If, however, a child does not acquire these basic skills at the "right pace," the child is almost certainly doomed to mediocre academic performance in the future, simply because so much of later education depends on strong reading abilities.

So. The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level. I would suppose that the beginnings of computing were male dominated simply because of the social climate of the times. Women weren't really allowed to be in any academic field (generally speaking), so it wasn't just that we were kept out of computing.

No foundation, no acheivement--does that make sense?

Society and history have interacted in such a way that women do not feel that technology is a field open to them. Yes, I do think that it is a choice for women not to go into the field, conscious or not. Unfortunate? Yes. Self-perpetuating? Definitely.

So that's my theory. Feedback, please! What do you think?

[charlieg]

I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.

And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!

[panickedthumb]

I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.

And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!
Well, that's the beauty of it. This section of the forum deals with women in the community, but it isn't only FOR women. There are easily more men here than there are women, and they have different opinions about the subject.

I am the one who came up with the idea for this section, and I'm a man myself :)

[poptones]

So. The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level.

I disagree with most of this right out of the gate.


"Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew. There are many homes where the parents are technically phobic and so neither the males nor females have a chance to learn the technology, and I have met plenty of technically illiterate men who just never seem to "get it."

When I was young and about to marry, my ex (darn, now you know how that story ends) invited her best friend (of course) to be maid of honor at our very small, private ceremony. later we went to a restaraunt for reception and as she walked past the floodlights in front of the place she gave everyone quite a show. You see, she had never in her life worn a dress before and her mother had not told her to wear a slip! She was the only daughter in a family of boys and her mother was not a "girly girl." So, Cathy grew up learning "boy stuff." She was 17 and had a Dodge she had restored and hotrodded - when it came to cars she knew things, but when it came to "being a girl" she didn't even know how to dress.

The mom and daughter near here... mom took classes and such but still doesn't really seem to "get it." She prefers gnome and always seems a bit afraid she's going to break something. Daughter digs KDE, tweaks it out and, when she wanted to rim MP3s and couldn't figure out how to get MP3s in linux, she installed WINE and used iut to run winamp and some ripping tool she knew from windows. I didn't even tell her about WINE, much less how to go about it. But she installed it and configured all on her own. This is a 16 year old girl who lives in a home where the internet access is doled out in minutes, where dad would prefer the computer (and the TV set) were carried off to the dump, where mom has had a computer for years but still knows little more about it than what games she likes to play. They keep their only child locked away from the world like some Rapunzel. Even though she's a girl and comes from a family where gender identities are likely to be strongly encouraged (most of the family are christian fundamentalists) she's a strong willed kid who is into anime (especially yaoi - boy-boy relationship stories), has a healthy distrust of the government, and has a very intuitive sense regarding computers. She's a true geek - even though, nearly 18 now, still is being kept in that tower and so has never really had the chance to embrace it.

Just two (three?) examples of the fallability of stereotype. I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.

And by the way, this is NOT just the product of antiquated conservative thinking. When I was in my twenties I was a dancer (ok, a male stripper) and I also dj'd sometimes at the club where my girlfriend worked (who, obviously, was also a dancer). Her sister (who ALSO was a dancer) had a daughter, and that daughter was, as you might expect, being raised with values that did not fit well within much mainstream thinking. Her mother was very independant and she had raised her daughter to be that way. She was an awesome kid, very confident in herself and her gender and sexuality - in other words, she didn't see being a girl as a disability, but as a source of empowerment. You might be surprised by how many of those "liberal feminists" she came into contact with took just as much offense at her attitudes and upbringing as you might expect of conservative mainstream christians.

[panickedthumb]

poptones, you did READ senorcheaposgato's post right? You seem to be agreeing with her.

"I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence."

This is exactly what she was saying, or at least, that's what it seemed to me.

I know you like debate and sometimes like playing devil's advocate, but you say straight out that you disagree and then go on to show evidence of the point you're arguing against? It doesn't make sense.

[senorcheaposgato]

"Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew.

I never meant to imply that computing is innate. Some things are (basic reflexes, usually gone before adulthood). Everything else has been sacrificed for the sake of potential.

I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports. I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive. As you put it:


It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.

Yes, traditionalized gender roles are a problem. Even though I wasn't raised to lack confidence and I don't follow stereotypical gender roles, cultural history and society still affect my life every day.

The fact is, women didn't get in on the ground floor. No, that's not the only problem. But it HAS had an effect.

The fact is, women are NOT encouraged to learn how things work and how to fix them.

The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys." Let me make it perfectly clear that I do not think that all men with computer skills look down on women in technology. Some do, just as with every other field.

Look, nature vs. nurture is really a pointless debate. It's both. It's context. It's interaction. A multitude of factors contribute to any problem, and women in computing is no different. Sure, we could argue their relative importance until the end of time. I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones. I don't think I was clear in my previous post: I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.

Everything is interaction. Everything is context. Yes, it's a new start with each individual--potential. But no decision is made in a vacuum: it's impossible to make any choice without the influence of society, expectations, personal goals, etc.

Free will...hm. Not as free as I'd like to think.

[poptones]

I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports. I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive.

Yes, but I'm saying that doesn't matter. This argument is way too common - it's "societal" and "cultural." They said the same thing about being gay, that it's because they are "raised gay" somehow, that being molested in childhood or being taught to fear members of the opposite sex makes people gay. The same thing is also commonly said about child abusers and pedophiles when, in fact, objective science shows the direct opposite to be true - that people who are molested as children are less likely to molest, that people who were abused as children are more likely to police themselves to avoid repeating that mistake. (Not that this cannot follow a "tree," however - children are likely to become adults who carefully safeguard against the faults they percieve in their parents, which can cause an overcorrection - and so, their children, rebelling against those faults, end up making the same mistakes as the grandparents)

My mother encouraged me to pursue my interests in science and in music, but she died when I was a child. My father never encouraged me in anything, except financially, and I never asked him to buy me a doll so I have no idea how he would have reacted. Keep in mind, though, I was a child long before the pop cultural rise of anime. Were I that same boy of ten or twelve today I might indeed be asking for an anime model kit (http://www.hobbyfan.com/popup_image.php?pID=459&pic=e) rather than a funny car. Such things simply did not exist when I was a boy (I suppose that would have at least put his mind to rest regarding me being attracted to girls).

The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys."

But... why is this seen as a "problem?" How often do we hear of special programs directed at encouraging men to settle down from their careers and become house-husbands?

Like I said, the reason those guys often try to pick up on women is because it's just part of who guys are. Guys are driven to sex and this is not some social construct - gay men tend to be just as aggressive among one another as straight men toward women. When I was working phone support I often found myself being flirted with by gay men - and guess what? I enjoy it. I like being flirted with and I would sometimes respond in kind. I'm not gay but many of my friends are and, frankly, since I'm not twenty five any more I kind of miss being checked out not just by the cute girls but even the old men at the gym. Anyway, I'm supposed to be editing not adding more crap here...

I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones. I don't think I was clear in my previous post: I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.

And apparently I wasn't enirely clear about what I disagreed with, at least so far as what I thought I read in your original comment. What I mean is that it IS "nurture" but it's not so much a matter of encouraging this interest or that, but of engendering confidence. And I am not so certain that is even possible to the degree in women as it is in men, simply because the male tendency is to completely overestimate one's self. (That tendency is not just because "boys are raised that way" for I can assure you I was not and though I lack confidence I still too often suffer overconfidence to a degree I have rarely seen in any woman. )

And I am certain (but of course unable to objectively prove, for if that were possible I would be telling this to everyone from Oprah to Nelson Mandela) that the difference in the sexes plays a part in it - to wit: hormonal and physiological differences have been shown to lead to certain "stereotypical" differences. I don't know anyone who would not agree that higher levels of testosterone seems to directly lead to certain behaviors - and, speaking as a former bodybuilding enthusiast I know from experience it affects both women and men in very similar fashion. But men are "blessed" with higher levels of this through much of their early lives, which is going to lead to early reinforcement of thought patterns and behaviors, which leads to more repetition of certain behaviors...

I don't think women's lack of confidence is just a matter of nurture is what I mean. and that lack of confidence will play an important role. I'm tempted to really break this down (ie racial and cultural) for more specific examples, but I fear that might, likewise, really trigger a flame war. Anyway, think of those hormonal balances and how they might tend to vary given differing genetic lines. Societies and cultures shape evolution for humans just as much as for animals, therfore it is reasonable to expect that in certain cultures women who are docile and submissive are more likely to reproduce and that men who are aggressive and successful in some capacity (even if it is just at domineering and exploiting others through force) will also be more likely to reproduce. What impact do you expect this would have on evolution in that geography? In other cultures, however, women who are flambouyant and confident and outspoken may be more likely to get the attention.

Is it any accident artists tend to have artistic children? What then of engineers? That is whole different type of commitment - yet there are women doctors and I don't know anyone who reacts negatively to that.

I'm saying that stereotypes are no accident - and that "social" does not simply mean "psychological" but real, physical differences. Anomalies do exist (and yes, I do consider myself one of those anomalies) but their existence does not disprove the basic accuracy of an archetype.

Having said that, where do we go to start a "poofs of ubuntu" discussion area? All they're talking about in the "otaku" discussion is robots and mechas and stuff...

[senorcheaposgato]

I won't dispute the importance of biology. Genetics, hormones, etc. do play a part in the way we are. I'm not arguing that point.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things. Yes, humans evolve just like everything else. But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone. No man is an island. The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations. To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out." You can't breed alone.

Yes, I am different than men. I am also different than women, although this difference is (biologically) less significant. Biologically, hormonally, emotionally, psychologically....I'm not what you are.

I'm not saying that stereotypes are all lies. Yes, they do exist for a reason. However, stereotypes are a lot like statistics: over an entire population, they may hold true. On an individual level, don't trust them. If 3 out of 7 people do [behavior X] then it's tempting to say "Hey, out of the 7 people I ate dinner with last night, 3 of them engage in [behavior X]!" Statistically speaking, you should be right. Are you? quite possibly not. It may be that [behavior X] is more prevalent in men from Maine, and you ate dinner with 7 women from Nevada.

Biology plays a role, undoubtedly. I agree that stereotypes are based in some truth, but only apply at the population level. There are differences that cannot be explained by nurture; there are also differences that cannot be explained by nature.

It's more complicated than that.

[poptones]

Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things. Yes, humans evolve just like everything else. But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone. No man is an island. The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations. To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out." You can't breed alone.

I miss something here, because every point you make seems directed toward proving the validity of the thing you claim to not be "a fan of."

Of course you're not what I am. So? I'm not what most men are, either. we're all different but as different as we are we're still similar in many ways and, within that, many of us are similar in more ways still. But one doesn't diminish the importance of the other.

[newbie2]

“Neither of them responded,” she said.
"Diliwal did admit, however, that the data might exist."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/09/ms_loses_women/

[krusbjorn]

Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.

Well, I can only speak for Sweden, but it has done a lot of good here.

If there are second to none women in a certain profession there are also second to none women getting experience in that profession. If you need a new employee and get to choose from one with experience and one who has the education needed but dont have any experience working, you choose the one with experience. Of course, no one can blame you for that.

When the public sector (or any other institution or company) use positive discrimination, the men, of course, feel that they are treated unfarily. And perhaps they are. If you are more skilled than your competitors for the job, and they dont choose you, of course it's unfair. That's the bad side of it.

The pro, however, is that if more women get employed, more women will have experience. And after a while, there will be a lot of more women in the profession, which will motivate even more women to educate themselves in the subject. When you have used positive discimination for a while, you won't need it anymore, since there will be a "better" balance between men and women in the profession.

There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with care , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.

Thats how it have worked here. Of course, I have no idea whatsoever of how it has worked in the States or other countries.

Cheers.

[endy]

Mod parent +5 Insightful...

Oh wait, wrong site :D

[manicka]

There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with care , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.

bravo, well said :)

[manicka]

I shouldn't even get involved in this, given my opinion that -- man or woman -- you do not deserve anything in life unless you can earn it on your own merits. If you're not good enough, then that's nobody's fault but your own.
ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.

[Stormy Eyes]

ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

I should know better than to suggest on an international forum that government solutions only breed more problems. Oh well.

[bam]

ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.


opportunities are what we make them, you may see it as an obstacle, I see it as an opportunity. Just a matter of viewpoint, not society.

[quote=A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother,]
this is an autonomic response, doesnt have to be taught, its instinct.


as for the subject, who care where thwe knowledge came from man woman child monkey dog its all the same as long as something was gained. Right?

[programgeek]

I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?

[aysiu]

Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice. What would really be unnecessary is a Ubuntu Men because the Ubuntu forums are already overrun with men as it is--why make a separate forum for what already exists?

I'd highly recommend you read Unlocking the Clubhouse (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262632691/qid=1129172077/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6031602-0937443?v=glance&s=books). I checked it out of my library--very informative.

I realize your intentions are good, but I don't see that a debate like this will turn out productive. When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought:

1. Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination.

2. Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs.

Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

[kelsey23]

I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?
Ubuntu Women is actually a pretty sexist idea. Who cares if I am a woman or if I am a man? I am a Linux user. I understand the idea is too make women feel more comfortable, but this forum is like saying "ohhhhhhh I see your a woman come here and post now!" Now that makes me uncomfortable. By your logic, we should have a "Ubuntu Gays" too, and I can bet you that a person who said they are gay or something would face a lot more harrsment than a person saying they are a woman.

[aysiu]

Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.

[2notch]

Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why.

There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum.

For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".

Suck it up guys, admit it. I do.

*** I'll probably get some heat on this...bring it on.***

-- vv

[Lord Illidan]

Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why.

There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum.

For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".

-- vv

Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.

[az]

Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.
That's cool.


Here is my two cents:

So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
"Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
there will be a need to take action.

Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school. I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field. The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

[2notch]

Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.

They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.

[Lord Illidan]

They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.

Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??

Lol...couldn't resist!!

[2notch]

Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??

Lol...couldn't resist!!

Could be! That Mexican party girl of mine runs her own linux boxen now. Who would have known!

[az]

....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

[Lord Illidan]

....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

I dunno about the other, but I am certainly not ugly, and the last time I picked my nose was...the day before tomorrow...lol
Can't we have a joke here?

[2notch]

That's cool.


Here is my two cents:

So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
"Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
there will be a need to take action.

Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school. I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field. The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.

[az]

I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.

The thread lost credibility before that. That is the point.

[2notch]

nuff said...gone to pick nose and seek out blonde, nose-picking Linux geekess.

[Leif]

great. if I were a woman, what I'd take from this thread is that if I posted here, a bunch of horny geeks would know I'm a woman, and start chasing me.

[geekchic9]

Exactly, Leif.

Viewing female Linux users as only something to chase after in order which to mate is a form of sexism. Why? Because they are being treated differently in a negative way than any other Ubuntu user.

I looked up sexism in my dictionary and it said that sexism is "discrimination against people on the basis of sex, specifically discrimination against, and prejudicial stereotyping of, women."

How is Ubuntu Women discriminating against women? The creators of this forum were not discriminating against women. They were advocating the use of Ubuntu for women.

Advocacy: "To speak or write in support of a cause."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users? Although no factor alone can specifically determine why, I'm betting a large part of it comes from the sexism of male Linux users in the Linux community. Are you confused? Just look at this thread and Leif's disgusted reaction to it. It's a perfect reason why women are typically scared off from the Linux community.

This is why Ubuntu women have so much work to do. And why I ask supporters of Ubuntu women to make a stand and volunteer to help. It won't take much time or effort, if that's what you're worried about. Write a post supporting women Linux users. Go to #ubuntu-women on freenode.net. Encourage female friends who are sick of Windows to try Ubuntu. Any of these things would help out the cause, which is to encourage more women to try Linux.

Thanks for reading,
Morgan (geekchic9)

[Teroedni]

Totally agree with you geekchic9:)
I think the UbuntuWomen is a good idea

[flibble]

Great thread and a great idea for a Ubuntu Women forum.
I think you guys are probably totally decent people, but those comments you made are examples of how the society we live in effects all of us.
When you equate Ubuntu women with dumb blondes and mexican party girls, that has a negative impact on the women reading this forum. They're derogatory images. They paint a single picture that the value of women is their attractiveness (to men).
When you dismiss this impact by claiming you were 'only joking', that has an impact on the women reading this forum too.
I don't believe you guys intended to talk down to women, not for a second, but you did. Our society is steeped in this and it effects all of us and it happens all the time despite our best intentions. I'm certainly subject to it; I do it too. That's why we need to take action to address it by creating spaces where women are encouraged to speak.
It's us redressing a problem that we share, and doing so helps all of us.
Groovy :f

[Leif]

I'm all for ubuntu-women. If it serves to make women new to ubuntu feel more welcome, it's well worth it. And to respond to the original poster, why yes, if black people feel they are being discriminated against in the linux community, or gay people(yes, I have seen homophobic comments on these forums), or any other community for that matter, and feel that they would like to do something about it, I think they should be given the platform.

Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

[aysiu]

A lot of the issues we're discussing now are addressed in an article entitled How To Encourage Women in Linux (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/), including not making sexist jokes.

[spooky-mac]

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users?Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?

BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating.

Just my personal opinion. ;)

[Leif]

Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?

and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ? you think society could have some part here ?

the point of this forum isn't to fascinate you. the point here is that women are already being treated as "different", whether you know it or not. this is an attempt to make up for that.

anyway, I'm getting tired of a bunch of guys sitting around discussing whether it's ok for the "womenfolk" to do something or not. perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a sticky about elementary affirmative action and feminism for this forum so these discussions can be put to rest.

[aysiu]

BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating. I think you'll find that men in Linux tend to treat women as something "different" regardless of whether you have a forum dedicated to women or not. Again, see link above.

And, honestly, sometimes it's okay to be seen as different. I hate it, for example, when white people say, "You know, I don't really see you as Asian." Well, what do you see me as then? What are you--blind? I'm copying Margaret Cho's comedy routine, but I've often felt the same way. The question is really does that "difference" make you mistreat the person (say as a sexual object) or encourage you to realize how underrepresented certain populations are in the Linux community.

Unfortunately, debates like these are usually counterproductive and put activists in a catch-22. If we say there's a problem, we're accused of whining or having a victim mentality. If we don't say there's a problem, the problem doesn't get fixed. As I said before (which people seem to have conveniently ignored), if one of my arms has its muscles atrophying, I may, in fact, treat it as "different" from other body parts until it's exercised enough to be balanced out with the rest of my body. You don't give medicine to everyone, just the sick ones.

There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.

[Lord Illidan]

Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?

[kvidell]

Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?
Have you actually read the forum?
This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
:-P

And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k :-P)
- Kev

[towsonu2003]

Have you actually read the forum?
This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
:-P

And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k :-P)
- Kev

Hey, that's a good idea too! (not joking) Why not?

It would be soo cool! Is there demand (now there is)?

As for the original question:
Sexism and devotion to patriarchy (being too political? let me know) is too common among men (geek or not), so a Ubuntu Women to "let" (sic) women be comfortable (and raise their voice when necessary as a sub-community) seems to be an excellent idea.

[poptones]

This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to make an example...

Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man...

But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people identifying themselves by products? Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define other women by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").

I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the symbols of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.

[Leif]

This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to make an example...

Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man...

But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people identifying themselves by products? Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define other women by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").

I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the symbols of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.

I don't even understand what the point of that post was, but I'll bite.

yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is exactly the same thing as bestiality. it's always the same argument, as if there's some kind of slippery slope from good old traditional values. "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria."

as for the car thing, you're generalising from a single, traditionally male example (the bigger the car...). So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then.

[matthew]

I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense.

We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

I realize that perhaps <pick your favorite minority> might also be under-represented. I also know that no group has found it as difficult as women have at times to break in to the men's club feeling that often dominates the Linux world. If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present. You will likely hear sexist remarks and probably watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters. Hmm...why wouldn't she feel comfortable?

So, I don't see a need to start a "blond/brunette/redhead" series of forums. Nor do I see a need to start one based on skin tone or nation of origin. I do see a real need to work in two directions so that 51% of the world's population feels welcome here.

First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments. The moderators are doing a GREAT job with that.

Second, we need to actively say, "Hey, ladies! We want you to come and be a part. We want your knowledge and insights as intelligent, capable computer users (or just plain people for newbies)." This separate forum was designed to say that in as loud and obvious a way possible.

[poptones]

So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then.

Must be.

Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know of some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts.

yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is exactly the same thing as bestiality.

Fine. Leave out the beasiality (of which I was joking) but, since you address it, let's leave in the intergenerational part. Because there are grandparents out there and other older folks who we are not directly addessing and who could be. and what about the children? Where is the children's forum? are they to be relegated to the kubuntu project alone?

having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.

First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments.

Some people are sexist. Some people are racist. "Policing" them into silence also silences any opportunity to share and to learn, and propogates a lie.

If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present.

That's just because so many of them are still in the nervertouchedaboobie club...

...watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters.

Especially if she looks like Marta Kristin or Katherine Schell.

Personally, I'm still saving myself for Angela Cartwright...

[matthew]

How many computer-girls looks good? 1 out of 10?:???: This is an example of the attitude I was discussing. Thank you for providing an example of why women often feel devalued in the computer world.

In the interest of balance, fairness and humor I offer the following:
How many male computer-geeks look good? 1 out of 10?

Who cares? That's not what the community is about.

[reub2000]

This seems to be linux evangelism masquerading under feminism.

[xingmu]

In reponse to Lief's comment that "maybe we should make a sticky..." I have drawn up a summary of the arguments and counter-arguments made about Ubuntu Women recently. I'll post here first, so that people can review it and add as they like. Then if we have consensus, perhaps we can make it a sticky and save ourselves from threads like this in the future.

Why do women need their own space on Ubuntu Forums?

aysiu: Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.

Mattew: I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense. We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

Creating a separate forum for women is discrimination.

xingmu: Although the word discriminate has the meaning "to set something apart from another," this does not necessarily entail unequal treatment. And before you begin to bring up the historical fallacy of "separate but equal," remember that neither women or men are not prohibited from participating in any Ubuntu forum they choose. Separate forums does not have anything to do with forced segregation, it's simply giving dedicated space to a topic in-demand.

aysiu: When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought: (1) Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination; (2) Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs. Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

Cool, now Ubuntu Forums has a place to pick up chicks.

xingmu: The purpose of Ubuntu Women is to welcome women in the Ubuntu community as a person (who has a mind and feelings), not as a sex toy. This type of unwanted sexual attention is exactly what has put some women off from computing. This forum is trying to provide a place where women will have some reassurance this type of sexism won't be tolerated.

Face it, women just aren't interested in computers. This forum is a waste of time.

Leif: and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ? you think society could have some part here ?

I don't think that women should have their own forum, it's not fair.

Leif: Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

xingmu: If there are people who want this forum and use it, who are you to say whether they are entitled to it or not? There are no restrictions, that I have heard of, to prevent someone for making a case to create another special interest forum on Ubuntu Forums.

What does gender have to do with Ubuntu? OS's don't care what sex you are.

xingmu: An OS is made by people for people. It's not a living entity on it's own. So it's not that hard to see how gender and OS's can be related. For instance: How do we get more women involved in Ubuntu development? How do we encourage more women to use Ubuntu? How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks? And there are lots more issues that can relate to both Ubuntu and women. Hopefully we can address them here.

[BLTicklemonster]

I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?
It's only sexist or racist if it's meant to be. Otherwise, you don't get it and should sit down and let people work things out themselves. Do you realize how much DOESN'T get done due to people outside looking in trying to be sidewalk referees constantly yelling sexism and racism and all other isms when in all reality it's nothing at all.

[BLTicklemonster]

I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.
I agree, that post really boogered it all up. Who knows where it would have gone otherwise? Yeah, I know, it's not funny.

[Leif]

Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know of some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts..

look, this is a sidetrack, and I'm afraid the point of it still "escapes me", as you so nicely put it. you made a generalization, I suggested this may be incorrect because I know people who don't fit it, now you're saying since you don't relate to these people, my point is invalid. fine.


having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.

this is not about sexuality. I'm not in favour of the women's forum because they are women, but because I'm in favour of helping out those who may be facing an inordinate amount of hostility. when the dentists in this forum make it heard that they're being discriminated against, we'll discuss it. as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit. I'm not sure how many children use ubuntu, and whether old people are discriminated against, but surely we could also make them feel welcome, if that's what they want. if someone can create a tutorial that explains to my mother what the concept of a program, or window is, I will be eternally grateful.

there is an ongoing discussion whether anything not purely technical should be allowed on these boards. one point of view is that encouraging non-technical issues will create a community, instead of a helpdesk. I'm not sure about all implications of this, but I completely fail to see what harm the women's forum could do. then again, I guess that's because I do not see it as sexist.

[BLTicklemonster]

You try to be nice, and this is what you get.

[fluffy]

so that women dont have to put up with this kind of nonsense from people like u ... and so they can get on and help each other and let other women see that women use linux too

is that something that so threatens u that u have to post in opposition to it?

[rjwood]

....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)

[BLTicklemonster]

OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)
Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)

[rjwood]

I'm all for it ladies. It is a shame that from my point of view being an american guy and having 4sisters along with 2 much older brothers and 4 daughters and one son(middle child) (quite handsom too ladies), girls spend alot of time attacking one-another ( quite viciously i might add) during their school years while guy's are learning to bond using sports and the like. I have never really liked the idea of teaching girls to be much like guy's through sports and compitition,But maybe it's a good idea. I don't know. I do know that girls seem to feel very alone. Too bad. I watch my daughters suffer thru these things and am amazed at their strength. Keep it up ladies and I applaud you for caring for your gender. Unfortunatly most of us guy's don't get it early enough..

[rjwood]

Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him) I agree mostly but he was the father of phychology and he was useful.

But I think he was more a victum of his time too as we all are.

[poptones]

...as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit

Where did you get the idea I thought that was hilarious? I explicitly said "seriously" before making that point. I'm totally serious about that - there are more old people than there are women and every last one of us will, if we are lucky, grow old ourselves. Having a forum for older users and for children might well drive the creation of more and better software.

Simple example: you still cannot change the colors of links in either thunderbird or evolution. Unvisited links are this hideously garish blue that is almost unreadable with any color theme that does not put the blue on top of a light grey or green. With dark themes links are pretty much illegible unless you have perfect vision, and that ain't something most folks over 40 have - whether they be male or female. In fact this is probably LESS of a problem for men since some men can be colorblind (and thus see the blue as a lighter shade of grey) but colorblindness is not something at all common to women. This has been a "known bug" in evolution for YEARS (I actually found a discussion of this in an email thread from 2002 and the main developer then said he knew about it and had no time to devote to it) - years later, and still no one does anything about it. How about ubuntu putting a bounty on this?

[eonish]

There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.
I dont think we have any 'all-men's' forum at all. I dont see anything manly about threads like "OpenOffice 2 final released" or "HowTo: Install and Use Beagle Easily". We probably would have an almost-all-men's forum if there were threads such as "Top 50 women" or such. But I never saw that. So I would rate this community, safe-for-all (as long as you are interested in linux.. lol)

I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.
There are forums and communities representing almost every topic that is (or is not) worth discussing about. There are forums dedicated to discussing about movies, specific movies, men, men who smokes, women who smokes, smoking... everything!
This forum, I believe, is about Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings. It is neither supposed to represent nor underrepresent men or women. Just a bunch of people discussing about ubuntu.

Now I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are too few women using linux. Ubuntu for women is an interesting idea. The IRC channel sounds like a great beginning for the cause.

How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks?
Being a brown male geek... The idea that linux community seems to be for white male geeks _never_ crossed my mind once. My brown female non-geeky sister (who uses ubuntu 100% on her system, btw) never seemed to think so either... but I'll get her input later.

[Mrtn]

Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist. Its like saying, thats where you belong away from us superior and more intelligent men.

Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.

Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.

I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.

If this forum is not focused on women, then there is no use for it. What you basically are saying with this forum is that:

1. The main forum is focused on men, which may or may be not true but now it is stated as that it is true. This will make any future integration much more difficult because males will think: We had our own forum **** off and the females will think the same.

2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.

I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.

[kanem]

Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist....
It's not up to the oppressive sex to determine what is and is not sexist against women. If women decided there was a need for a women's forum here then that's their perogative and you don't have the right to question it.

Now whether or not a women's section belongs in a Linux distro's forum is another matter to debate. And you may have some good reasons for why it shouldn't be present. But unless you have had to deal with sexism all your life as women have you don't get to decide if it's sexist or not.

[Leif]

Martin, did you actually read this thread before posting, or did you just see the thread title and decide to post for the hell of it ? You say :


Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.

despite you (miraculously) not having seen any, there's plenty of discrimination against women going on in the IT world.


Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.


yes, yes, let's all pretend there's no disparity here.
you've completely misunderstood the point of this forum. it is not about segregating women, it's a place to discuss ideas on how to promote a better, more equal place for women in the ubuntu community.


I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.

why ? you say you'd like to have more women in linux. that's what this project is about.



2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.

I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.

I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand how you've come to these conclusions, despite all the posts trying to sum up what this forum is about.

this is not about segregation. this is not putting women at the back of the bus. this is not about having the womenfold have their playground.

this is not a women-only forum. and this is definitely not where women are supposed to post about everything. technical things still go where they belong.

this is a forum about finding ways to level the playing field for women in linux, because they have to go through more hassle than you or I do. it's about discussing how to make a more inclusive community.

just because you don't know about the problems women may face, doesn't mean they don't exist. it may be that you even know some female linux geeks who get along just fine, and that's great, but I happen to have quite a few female friends in computer-related disciplines, and I know the crap they have to put up with sometimes. most men cannot even imagine these difficulties, because we never have to deal with them.

most importantly, this is a forum whose future the female users of ubuntu should get to decide upon, and so far, I have heard female voices in support of it, and the only voices opposing it are male.

me, I'm posting here because I feel strongly about creating equal opportunities. I feel much good can come from admitting the problems and discussing solutions. you don't want to help out, that's fine too.