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ekimus
July 14th, 2005, 02:13 PM
Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.

kleeman
July 14th, 2005, 02:38 PM
This is a strange post- sounds like you are a bit nervous about sex roles. Personally I just tell my wife she is full of it when I think she is and I receive the same treatment in return. This is healthy! My wife is a very strong feminist and never expects me to modify my (usually coarse) behaviour :) :) and I don't expect her to modify hers. What's the big deal, we are all adults aren't we? Of course stupid macho aggro is another matter.

endy
July 14th, 2005, 02:57 PM
From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.

Teroedni
July 14th, 2005, 02:58 PM
Agree with Kleeman there

qoute
So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.
qoute


You dont need to care about that. It seems this is something you are making up.
](*,) ](*,) ](*,)

poptones
July 14th, 2005, 03:10 PM
I rarely even read the name of the person I am replying to before replying to them. Not only do I not care if the person is a man or a woman, I don't care how old they are or even if they are a "friend" or not.

if you think you should not care... then don't. It's really as simple as that.

kvidell
July 14th, 2005, 03:16 PM
I think what the OP is trying to ask is why did we feel the need to make a special place for our lady posters.
What makes them so "special" that they get their own forum. Why don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)

I wondered this originally but the mods posted some good reasoning for it (which is easily found since this forum is still comparitively small), and thought it was a cool networking strategy anyway.

Does that clear anything up or had you already gathered that?

And to poptones... Re: "I rarely read the name of the person who posted before": I rarely read the forum I'm in.
I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads".
I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Cheers,
- Kev

poptones
July 14th, 2005, 03:34 PM
I rarely read the forum I'm in. I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads". I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Ditto. But one thing I DO check is "threads I am in." And on that note I hope one of the moderators sees this and can respond: why is this not a "quick link?" In order to check up on discussion I have participated in I have to click search, advanced search, wait for THAT page to load (I am on dialup), click in "member name" and type my nick, then click "search" - every single time I visit here - just to keep track on discussion I have participated in.

This should be a single click or at most two. Am I overlooking something here?

I guess I could be... I didn't even know this place has a "women's forum." Are men allowed? What's to stop me from making an alt-ID and joining the fray? I must admit it does seem a bit silly and, in that it implies women need protection, I find it a bit offensive.

ROTFL. See? I didn't even know I was in the women's forum...

ekimus
July 14th, 2005, 03:40 PM
EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

endy
July 14th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Re: poptones

Going off topic here but I believe you can if go your your "User CP" on the forum, click on "Edit Options" and then locate the "Default Thread Subscription Mode" you can set how you want to subscribe to thread you reply to or start. Then use the "Quick links" button and select "Subscribed Threads". :)

primeirocrime
July 14th, 2005, 05:22 PM
I think this section of the forums is not inteded to be a safe environment for women or a place where women adress pre-concived representations of what is being a woman. It's more of a place for discussing-promoting-devise projects, ideas and concerns in Ubuntu but with a prespective of women that continue to be in lesser number in the IT world. Realising that there is huge population of men developing software and that not always they take a perspective diferent from them. It's not that Ubuntu Women is addressing GUI stuff like more pink and more flowers or watch your language! Just read a bit what the women in ubuntu women are talking about.

And I do not really see the need for every other spawn of ubuntu forums, we could go to a infinite number of option here and it's not about that I think. Ubuntu Women is not intended to be a kind of segregated place [«oh yeah, that is the girls club over there«]

Women are half of humanity, and in that group there are gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world contained.

This not to say that ubuntuforums main sections are male only areas [ with gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world]

poptones
July 14th, 2005, 05:24 PM
Aha! I did indeed miss that. Thanks endy!

Re the other stuff... I just don't agree, but I also don't think it's worth fighting over and , now that I realize where it was coming from that's probably where this will end up. I looked at that other thread where PT outlines the "reason for this forum" and the very first post pretty much confirmed exactly what I said: this forum implies women need some sort of "protection" and the messages here would be particularly scrutinized in that regard.

I'll tell you up front I'm a participant in some other online communities many here would probably find pretty objectionable, but I am all about equality legal and economic equality. And that doesn't mean ignoring people's sexuality or their gender, in fact I believe this is the biggest failing of the old school judeo-western "feminism."

But in a this forum it was just never an issue.. or so I thought. Like I said, most of the time I don;t even look at the person's name, I address their views or their technical issue and that's it. But segregating people for whatever reason just focuses attention on the thing you are trying to "equalize."

Also... I remember now, a few days ago, seeing something about "ubuntu women" on the front page. To be honest I thought it was just a thread about babes, like the bsd babes ( http://wigen.net/data/bsdmascots/#). Go figure!

poofyhairguy
July 14th, 2005, 06:20 PM
Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.


Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.

Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....

panickedthumb
July 15th, 2005, 03:17 AM
Hey you ever heard of the thing called PR? Its when you make symbolic actions for the sake of looking good, even if those actions don't do more than improve your image.

Guess what I consider the women's forum to be....
I don't want you to watch what you say because there's a woman around. I want there to be a way for women to feel comfortable posting in every section of the forums. If you have to "be careful" then it's reverse sexism. I've just seen a lot of places that WILL be more sarcastic and arrogant and condescending toward women, and that's what we need to stop. I want people to speak to men and women equally.

I give a rats ass about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums. We thought it was a good idea so I rolled with it and brought Kassetra on board. Kassetra's opinions on the matter differ from mine to an extent.

poofyhairguy
July 15th, 2005, 03:21 AM
I give a rats ass about PR. I came up with this forum when talking with a female on the forums.

Fine. I believe you.

rwabel
July 17th, 2005, 12:10 AM
Fine. I believe you.
The thing is, I even don't know if the person's entry is from a women or a man or if I help a women or a man.
Most IMPORTANT, I don't care who the other person is (what gendre, where he comes from, etc)!
I agree, it's sometimes interesting to know more about a person.

Just out of curiousity, why should a women be uncomfortable in the ubuntu forum? It's about ubuntu, linux, computer etc and not about gendre!

I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!

panickedthumb
July 17th, 2005, 01:03 AM
" I'm not against a women forum. I just hope it was not started because they feel uncomfortable here!"

I haven't heard about any women here who feel uncomfortable, but in other linux forums, and tech forums in general, along with tech jobs, there's a lot of sexism. We just want the women who may have had previous bad experiences to feel comfortable here.

super
July 17th, 2005, 01:38 AM
at least this thread answered some question for me:
where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?

consider me much comforted. ;-)

ekimus
July 18th, 2005, 11:13 AM
at least this thread answered some question for me:
where are all the females? and is there some weird male only rule to these forums?

consider me much comforted. ;-)

that's also something interesting, in most "women"-forums i saw it seems that the only people who care about it (including me) are men.

there was also some post stating that this is about ubuntu (or whatever forum) not about women which I like more. This should be a technical section imho, not something where I need to care about political issues. but that's just a personal opinion.

I have to admit it's kind of a standard question I ask whenever I find a forum which is basically about technical stuff with a special women section. It's always interesting to hear the opinions (not starting a flamewar but talking on an somewhat objective basis).

so long
\ekimus

btw: I just convinced my girlfriend to use ubuntu :). One more user *g*

poptones
July 18th, 2005, 12:00 PM
I finally figured it out: Men are from Mars, women are from Venus.

We're Martians. And M/A/R/R/S.. needs... women.

Put the needle on the record when the song beats go like THIS!

endy
July 18th, 2005, 03:22 PM
While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash (http://www.beagle2.com/index.htm) here too ;)

dataw0lf
July 18th, 2005, 07:54 PM
While we're inviting more women to mars can we also put a request in to stop earth dumping their trash (http://www.beagle2.com/index.htm) here too ;)

I'd rather have it dumped on Mars then in my backyard. My 2 cents (I don't plan on going to Mars soon).

Gnobody
July 19th, 2005, 04:48 AM
Yes, but are there any hot ones out there? :razz: :D :razz: :wink:

gretchen
July 21st, 2005, 09:45 PM
Yes, but are there any hot ones out there? :razz: :D :razz: :wink:

Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on. A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer. It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.

poptones
July 21st, 2005, 10:39 PM
Gretchen, may I offer something from the other side? I used to work online in the MSN "comic chat help" room. And though I am a dude I tend to feel more comfortable in the company of women and so I usually adopted a femal presence. In CC help I was "babelogue" (named after a favorite piece of music by my hero, Patty Smith) and so I know pretty well how that can be. If a guy even thinks you are a woman it can change the equation.

It really comes down to standing your ground. But there are plenty of guys who get belittled and put down for asking questions too - this is the plight of the newbie and it's not a male female thing it's a "geek" thing that still attaches itself to linux most of all because linux is so much more likely to attract those who are zealous in the old school "hacker ethos." It's that "wild west" attitude Poofy was talking about in another discussion we were having. But remember: even the wild west had plenty of levi wearin, straight shootin' wimmins.

Take solace in this: those who are most likelly to put you down for asking "newbie" type questions or would take the opportunity to try to flirt... well, there's a good reason they're doing that here, online: because in real life they're too geeky to get to touch a real live girl...

endy
July 22nd, 2005, 04:00 PM
No one can find out anything about you on the internet unless you tell them ;)

darkmatter
July 23rd, 2005, 10:16 AM
We definitely need more women. The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.

manicka
July 23rd, 2005, 11:00 AM
Sadly, although you are joking and I'm sure mean no harm, this is the reason that many women don't feel comfortable posting on linux forums, asking questions on irc, mailing lists and so on. A woman asks a question and gets asked out or put down instead of an answer. It's extremely frustrating after the first couple times.
Well said, gretchen :)

poptones
July 23rd, 2005, 12:07 PM
The lack of a real female presence is part of the reason why my wife is 'iffy' towards Linux.

Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads.

So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?

endy
July 23rd, 2005, 09:30 PM
I hear alot right now about not enough women being in IT, but I was thinking that maybe they just aren't interested that much and prefer to be high fly lawyers, brain surgeons and astronauts etc... If so what's wrong with that?

I never see any women digging up the road or working for refuse collection, should we try and entice them into that too? Of course not.

My point is if there is no discrimination by employers hiring women that go for IT jobs (which can't be if the industry wants more women) and the IT industry is healthy (it could always be better but it's not exactly dying) then what exactly is wrong? Seems like nothing to me.

panickedthumb
July 23rd, 2005, 10:59 PM
What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.

darkmatter
July 23rd, 2005, 11:50 PM
Interesting. I know a pretty tech-illiterate mom and her teenage daughter who have been using linux more than a year now and I don't think they plan to go back. They don't hang out in tech forums because they're not interested in that stuff. Mom plays games and trades patterns and daughter surfs and chats and shops for music downloads.

So.. what do you mean by "lack of... presence?" Lack of presence where?

I mean the lack of the "technically literate" presence of women in the forums. Although there are plenty of technically literate ladies out there, it seems like most do not actively participate in providing assistance. (My wife seems more comfortable asking women for help - heck, she doesn't even like asking me for help, but that could just be the fact that I get far to technical about things)

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2005, 01:04 AM
From what I recall of my education men and women do tend to use language quite differently and situations like this crop up all the time.

Damned right. A great many women will, when take care to say exactly what I mean in order to avoid confusion, will give me **** about being "too literal". Having had a mother who tried to raise her sons to be gentlemen, I refrain from telling them that on my planet, words have specific meanings. Other women, however, seem adept at speaking male, and my literal speech doesn't faze them.

Luckily for me, my wife speaks male.

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2005, 01:08 AM
why are women so special and the others not?

Because the loudmouths among the "fair sex" tend to make a big ruckus when they see us men get together and end up with a de facto "men only" group, whether it's Linux users, gamers, or cops. It's the same sort of thinking that will have a woman going for a "girls' night out" while complaining about how her man likes to play poker (or D&D) with the guys once a week. Some women think that they deserve to be treated like queens, and get snarly when the men in their lives think otherwise.

manicka
July 24th, 2005, 01:44 AM
guys,

Some of you are doing a wonderful job of scaring off any potential female members of this forum. Some respect for each other (male or female) wouldn't go astray.

let's cut down on the aggro and be nice to each other :)

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 01:56 AM
Amen.

Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all.

Furthermore, let it be said that women are not more special than men, as ekimus mentioned. It's just that I don't think there are many men in the ubuntu, linux, or tech communities who feel their descriminated against because of their sex. I've seen first hand the descrimination against women here (though not often) and in other communities (more than I'd like) and even in real life at work, etc, and the aforementioned example of my wife in Office Max. Some women don't make it easy, sure. People are people and they're as varied as jelly belly jelly beans. More varied, even. But when there's consistent discrimination, I think something should be done about it.

Again, stormy eyes, I don't think you're discriminating against anyone (you're blunt and honest with everyone, and I appreciate that), I just don't agree with you on this point.

jdong
July 24th, 2005, 03:23 AM
Umm, if you want to start a "Ubuntu Men" project, go ahead, and we'll list you here :)

Nobody's being discriminated against!

endy
July 24th, 2005, 04:09 AM
What's wrong is that my wife, who works at office max, gets asked for someone who knows what he's talking about all the time, when she does know what she's talking about. People have come right out and asked her "What, you don't have any guys who know what they're talking about working today?" It's not just in linux, its everywhere.

I agree, that is wrong.

I think that it would be nice if in my lifetime men and women could truely live equally with only their abilities relevent to the task at hand being important, as opposed to any other discrimination whichever form it takes.

poptones
July 24th, 2005, 04:31 AM
Endy, discrimination simply means telling one thing from another. Life is full of discrimination - do I buy a Ford or a chevy, do I run Windows or Linux, am I attracted to this person or that...

What PT and most of you are talking about is bigotry, not merely discrimination. Yeah, the world would be a lot happier place without so much of it... but look where we are now: in a "separate but equal" section of this forum.

People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.

manicka
July 24th, 2005, 05:05 AM
. People segregate themselves all the time. That's not how you defeat bigotry, that's how you foster it.

It depends on how you discriminate and the underlying issues. Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.

endy
July 24th, 2005, 05:19 AM
The point I was trying to make is that only the skills required for the job should be taken into account. No other factor is important, not gender, not race, not disability or anything. If the person is best qualified for the job, even if it means a department full of people from the exact same demographic, then they should get it. Idealistic isn't it?

Anyway I also think the word you may have been looking for is prejudice. A bigot is someone who doesn't listen to anyone else's opinion when they disagree. Sounds like the average family member at christmas to me ;)

(Note to self: Proof reading is good)

poptones
July 24th, 2005, 05:39 AM
big·ot
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.


Yes, it's pretty idealistic the scenario you describe. For one, because we are all human and therefore subject to a thousand different emotional predjudices. Example: applicant A has a college degree with great honors and several years experience. Applicant B has no degree but a few more years of experience. The boss also was a "self made man." Applicant A is a woman. Applicant B is a man. Applicant B gets the job because the boss feels more akin to this person. The fact he is a man and the other a woman has nothing to do with it, it's the common experience the two share as self motivated entrepreneurial types who choose to work "outside the system" that makes the decision. Sharing common experiences is an important factor in team building - but things are not likely to appear so "understandable" to the other applicant.

Just a few panels ago in this very thread someone was talking about the way men and women use language. People are different, and that is going to impact the way we deal with one another. It's (at best) naive to pretend things can be any other way so long as we continue to be human beings. Be confident and proud in your person and others will respect that - and them that don't won't respect anyone including themselves anyway... why allow someone like that to hold power over you?

poptones
July 24th, 2005, 05:47 AM
Positive discimination has been one of the ways that bigotry has been successfully dealt with on many issues.

Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2005, 06:04 AM
Amen.

Stormy, you know I love you, but I disagree with the last post here. I do agree that there are a great many women like those you mentioned, but that's not all.

Fair enough. It's not just the more obnoxious women, the ones who expect royal treatment at all times, that are at fault. I certainly didn't mean to imply that women deserve all the blame.

There's plenty of crow for the men to eat. There are guys who, for whatever reason, feel threatened by the presence of women in what used to be a "guys only" club. Add competence on the part of the women, and you may get insecure guys who are probably thinking, "Damn, this woman's as good as I am. She doesn't need me, but I need to be needed, so I'll cut her down to size."

Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image.

manicka
July 24th, 2005, 06:17 AM
I'd like to request that this thread be closed before it gets out of hand.

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 07:30 AM
"Let's face it: we guys are trained to show a stiff upper lip when there are women around. Asking a woman for help, for some guys, contradicts their macho self-image."

Amen. That's the issue at hand I believe, or at least one issue at the core of the problems.

This section of the forums isn't a segregation. Most of us in here at this point are men. If this were a "no-boys-allowed" section, and if there were no women in the other parts of the forum, then I'd agree with this being a problem. As it is, this is no more segregation than posting topics about backports in the backports section. One major concern tsjoklat and I had when creating the idea for this was making sure segregation doesn't become a problem.

poptones, yes, I think sexism is overdiagnosed, just like ADD in kids. People like to use it because it's an easy answer. However it does exist and we're trying to work it out.

manicka, I understand your concern about this thread being closed, but I want to attempt to alleviate concerns as best I can before closing it. lets all just make a conscious effort to not let the thread get out of hand. :)

aveline
July 24th, 2005, 07:49 AM
I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two? In this one thread I've seen hm... *counts..* 5 posts I find either a) intimidating b) rude or c) downright stupid... and some of you wonder why women have a hard time posting on technical lists/linux forums? Panicked thumb "gets it" as do a few others here...but for the rest...you don't seem to understand.

I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things. Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period. Not all of us do & I'm certainly putting my own little ass out here posting this & saying what I have. But then I've dealt with men far more than women and seen alot worse behaviours from grown & teen males so my skins a lil thicker than maybe some womens. *The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*

sigh I'm rambling... so I'm gonna shut up now.

aveline

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 08:19 AM
aveline-- congrats on coming out, especially since you made it through the (I imagine) horrid taunting of younger and more immature men. You're doubly screwed I'd imagine, because not only do you get the "stupid girl" comments but you probably get a lot of "OMG can I watch?" crap too.

I do speak literally, but I think I have a good grasp of language, and sometimes what seems to be most literal isn't the best way to get a point across. Language is meant to be understood, and the best way to get someone to understand is the way you should say that. So I'm rambling now too. Point being, every person, not just every gender or sex, speaks and understands differently, so clarity is important and understanding is important. Sorry if my clarity is failing me, it's after 3 am.

Do try to understand people who handle this situation poorly. Tempers get heated when a controversial topic such as this comes up, but it's an important one.

regeya
July 24th, 2005, 08:45 AM
Lamest. Thread. EVAR.

Guys, if you're so insecure that you need to cut women down to size to feel superior...welcome to the 21st century. Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'...welcome to the 21st century. Both groups, lock yourselves in a room and try to catch up with the rest of us.

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 08:48 AM
"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"

And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"

EDIT: sorry if that was too over the top. It's just a bit frustrating when I've said repeatedly that this is to help women be comfortable with integrating with the community, and hell, even help men feel more comfortable with women integrating into the community if the case presents itself. There's no special place to play.

Knome_fan
July 24th, 2005, 09:48 AM
http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg

aveline
July 24th, 2005, 09:53 AM
"Women, if you need to have a separate place to play because you can't play with the opposite sex, or you feel the need to be a total ******* to be 'competitive'"

And Travis said with his dying breath, "They... missed... the... point.... *gaaack*"

*falls over laughing*... so true... hehe

oh and ya I got alot of the "can I watch!?" stuff...among other stuff. *sighs* Believe me you would not wanna hear some of the stuff I've gotten because of my sexual prefs...thats not even getting into some of hte other stuff in my life.

Ty for the welcome Thumb. Its appreciated.

aveline

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 09:58 AM
http://people.debian.org/~dnusinow/posse.jpg
That's one of the most varied groups of people I've ever seen *L*

senorcheaposgato
July 24th, 2005, 10:11 AM
Alright, here's my two cents.

first cent: This isn't about elitism, segregation, private clubs, or sexism.

second cent: This is about comfort in what is, unfortunately, a male-dominated sphere.

For the past year, I've worked at a job that involves selling electronics--networking, drives, printers, digital cameras...standard fare computers and accessories, you know what I mean. And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology. (DISCLAIMER: Not all customers have this predjudice, and some customers are just assholes to everyone. I'm not making a blanket statement, I'm simply saying that it exists.) In my experience, most men would prefer to talk to another man about their technology woes; similarly, most women prefer to talk to another woman.

In extreme cases, I have dealt with customers who are looking to buy their first computer/set up their first network who say they don't need my help with anything, but could I bring over one of the male associates? I pride myself on the fact that I know what I'm talking about most of the time...I also know enough to ask for help when I need it. I bust my ass at my job, but that kind of lack of respect makes me really, really happy that I'm done with them in 11 days.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that the women (or female impersonators) involved in this project aren't doing it to feel special or separate. I really do believe that it's comfort. For me, just knowing that there are at least a few other women who use Ubuntu and are on the forums is encouraging. Look, isn't the entire Ubuntu forum (or any forum) a group based around a common interest? This isn't a threat to anyone. This is another place to discuss...whatever. Who knows. As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above. They're still people.

Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals. Or some animals. You get the point.

poptones
July 24th, 2005, 10:25 AM
And yes, I can confirm that there is a prejudice against women in technology.

The real irony there is so much of it is made by women. Every electronic assembly line I have ever seen has been predominantly staffed by women. When you see the Chinese factories on tv, who are the workers? Mostly women.

When I was first starting out professionally some twenty-odd years ago I had a boss who I love dearly to this day. He was awesome - supportive, understanding - a true friend. He valued my intellect and always stood up for me when the bean counters would try to get me canned because I wasn't typical engineer material. And one of my most shocking memories of him was once when I was overdue on a project and under real pressure to deliver a prototype I had spent the day soldering components to my one and only copy of a printed circuit board that had just come in. Ordinarily I would have given it to our line boss who would, in turn, have given it to his best tech to assemble, but I felt particularly pressured to get everything done "my way" - even though a line tech, who did this stuff for hours every day, would have been able to assemble the board quicker.

So he comes over to me in the afternoon and asks "did you get the prototype debugged yet? " and when I said no and explained why he asked "why the hell did you spend half the day putting it together? That's women's work..."

endy
July 24th, 2005, 11:04 AM
<snip>

As far as I'm concerned, people posting here (or anywhere else) can be male, female, gay, straight, bisexual, asexual, transsexual, transgender, animal, vegetable, mineral, or any combination of the above. They're still people.

Well, unless they're vegetables or minerals. Or some animals. You get the point.

Hey, I'm a vegetable you insensative clod! I also think I saw a few animals roaming around here too... Anyway, if those men don't want your help because you're a woman then that's their loss. Really, how pathetic. Also I notice your location says your in the USA, I wonder if any girls from other countries could share their experiences. I wonder if this is more common in the states right now?

In reply to poptones: I'm sure you realise what I said was wishful thinking, I don't ever expect to see true equality in the world after all, we're screwed from the start; we're only human ;) However I like to think in terms of "Aim for the stars and you'll make it to the moon."

A very interesting topic so far and so I hope no one forces it to get closed.

Stormy Eyes
July 24th, 2005, 12:35 PM
I've been on this forum um... what? a week? two?

Welcome. Don't mind me; I can be harsh at times, but I try only to be harsh with people who deserve it -- regardless of gender.


I'm sorry but male privilege (sp?) exists...as does sexism and other things.

I won't deny that sexism exists. I try not to indulge in it, myself, because my parents taught me that it's not the gentlemanly thing to do. But if being white, blue-eyed, and male confers privileges, you can be damned sure that I am going to take advantage. I'm out for myself, you see, and I try to play the hand life's dealt me with as much panache as I can muster.


Some women find mens attitudes, literal speech, general demeanor just freaking intimidating. Period.

And some men (myself included), find womens' attitudes intimidating. What would you think and feel if you wanted to earn somebody's respect only to find out that nothing you could do would ever be good enough?

Now, I'm a man and I like women, but there are too many women who insist on telling me something's wrong and then giving me the cold shoulder when I offer to help. There are too many women who either belabor the obvious, repeat themselves ad nauseum, or just won't get to the frigging point.

Of course, being a man, I probably just don't understand women. But I'm trying, which is more than can be said for many women when it comes to men. Now, being a man and something of a romantic, I am going to do things that may **** some women off. I am going to hold the door for you. I am going to speak literally and precisely, and if you say something that doesn't quite make sense to me, I am going to try to figure out exactly what you mean. I will smile at you if I think you're pretty.

What I won't do is ask you to find a man to answer my question if you're capable of answering it yourself. Nor will I deliberately patronise you. Catch me doing it, and I'll apologise. And, if you'll pardon my Arabic, I will assume that you know your **** until you prove otherwise.


*The ultimate hell: come out as a gay woman among teen/young male gamers... I did & I survived.*

You're braver than I am. If I wasn't straight, I'd do my best to keep it on the down low. I wouldn't tell strangers, and I certainly wouldn't tell my family unless they asked me point-blank if so-and-so was a lover and not just a friend. And I certainly wouldn't tell brat gamers who aren't man enough to lose gracefully, but instead call superior players "faggots".

Personally, I don't care if you like men or women. It's none of my business, and I certainly won't ask if I can watch. If I wanted to watch two women playing together, I'd rent a porno.

senorcheaposgato
July 24th, 2005, 06:00 PM
The real irony there is so much of it is made by women.

Yes, in fact, it is. I can't argue that. Unfortunately, it is made by women in a manufacturing sense. While assembly lines may be staffed in large part by women, how many are involved in the creative process? Unfortunately, I think we all know how small that number is.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not in any way belittling their contribution. Theory is all well and good, but without the product, it's not too much use. However, I do find it unfortunate that the production seems to be, as your boss said, perceived as "women's work." Hopefully that kind of attitude is changing.

The bottom line is that women are a marginalized group within technology innovation. I think all of us have a variety of theories as to why this is; for myself, I see it in terms of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer.

Bear with me here, I'll try to explain.

Ok, this is a theory that I hold to be true in a language/educational sense. Take reading, for example. In the US, kids are expected to learn the basics of reading in kindergarden, and refine those skills over the next several years. If, however, a child does not acquire these basic skills at the "right pace," the child is almost certainly doomed to mediocre academic performance in the future, simply because so much of later education depends on strong reading abilities.

So. The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level. I would suppose that the beginnings of computing were male dominated simply because of the social climate of the times. Women weren't really allowed to be in any academic field (generally speaking), so it wasn't just that we were kept out of computing.

No foundation, no acheivement--does that make sense?

Society and history have interacted in such a way that women do not feel that technology is a field open to them. Yes, I do think that it is a choice for women not to go into the field, conscious or not. Unfortunate? Yes. Self-perpetuating? Definitely.

So that's my theory. Feedback, please! What do you think?

charlieg
July 24th, 2005, 06:38 PM
I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.

And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!

panickedthumb
July 24th, 2005, 07:44 PM
I think that for an 'Ubuntu Women' sub-section of the forums, an awful lot of men seem to post in it.

And just to excuse myself, I was just browsing out of interest!
Well, that's the beauty of it. This section of the forum deals with women in the community, but it isn't only FOR women. There are easily more men here than there are women, and they have different opinions about the subject.

I am the one who came up with the idea for this section, and I'm a man myself :)

poptones
July 24th, 2005, 09:16 PM
So. The fact that women have been marginalized from the beginning of computing, as well as from our own early experiences, many women don't have the basic skills to reach a high level.

I disagree with most of this right out of the gate.


"Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew. There are many homes where the parents are technically phobic and so neither the males nor females have a chance to learn the technology, and I have met plenty of technically illiterate men who just never seem to "get it."

When I was young and about to marry, my ex (darn, now you know how that story ends) invited her best friend (of course) to be maid of honor at our very small, private ceremony. later we went to a restaraunt for reception and as she walked past the floodlights in front of the place she gave everyone quite a show. You see, she had never in her life worn a dress before and her mother had not told her to wear a slip! She was the only daughter in a family of boys and her mother was not a "girly girl." So, Cathy grew up learning "boy stuff." She was 17 and had a Dodge she had restored and hotrodded - when it came to cars she knew things, but when it came to "being a girl" she didn't even know how to dress.

The mom and daughter near here... mom took classes and such but still doesn't really seem to "get it." She prefers gnome and always seems a bit afraid she's going to break something. Daughter digs KDE, tweaks it out and, when she wanted to rim MP3s and couldn't figure out how to get MP3s in linux, she installed WINE and used iut to run winamp and some ripping tool she knew from windows. I didn't even tell her about WINE, much less how to go about it. But she installed it and configured all on her own. This is a 16 year old girl who lives in a home where the internet access is doled out in minutes, where dad would prefer the computer (and the TV set) were carried off to the dump, where mom has had a computer for years but still knows little more about it than what games she likes to play. They keep their only child locked away from the world like some Rapunzel. Even though she's a girl and comes from a family where gender identities are likely to be strongly encouraged (most of the family are christian fundamentalists) she's a strong willed kid who is into anime (especially yaoi - boy-boy relationship stories), has a healthy distrust of the government, and has a very intuitive sense regarding computers. She's a true geek - even though, nearly 18 now, still is being kept in that tower and so has never really had the chance to embrace it.

Just two (three?) examples of the fallability of stereotype. I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.

And by the way, this is NOT just the product of antiquated conservative thinking. When I was in my twenties I was a dancer (ok, a male stripper) and I also dj'd sometimes at the club where my girlfriend worked (who, obviously, was also a dancer). Her sister (who ALSO was a dancer) had a daughter, and that daughter was, as you might expect, being raised with values that did not fit well within much mainstream thinking. Her mother was very independant and she had raised her daughter to be that way. She was an awesome kid, very confident in herself and her gender and sexuality - in other words, she didn't see being a girl as a disability, but as a source of empowerment. You might be surprised by how many of those "liberal feminists" she came into contact with took just as much offense at her attitudes and upbringing as you might expect of conservative mainstream christians.

panickedthumb
July 25th, 2005, 12:13 AM
poptones, you did READ senorcheaposgato's post right? You seem to be agreeing with her.

"I've met plenty of women who seem to lack confidence in computers (like mom up there) but they also just happen to lack confidence in most things. It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence."

This is exactly what she was saying, or at least, that's what it seemed to me.

I know you like debate and sometimes like playing devil's advocate, but you say straight out that you disagree and then go on to show evidence of the point you're arguing against? It doesn't make sense.

senorcheaposgato
July 25th, 2005, 12:34 AM
"Computing" is not something innate. A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother, you cannot make the argument "it's always been like this" because in every case of every individual it starts anew.

I never meant to imply that computing is innate. Some things are (basic reflexes, usually gone before adulthood). Everything else has been sacrificed for the sake of potential.

I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports. I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive. As you put it:



It's not a technical issue, it has nothing to do with linux or cars and everything to do with more generalized gender roles and girls being raised to lack confidence.

Yes, traditionalized gender roles are a problem. Even though I wasn't raised to lack confidence and I don't follow stereotypical gender roles, cultural history and society still affect my life every day.

The fact is, women didn't get in on the ground floor. No, that's not the only problem. But it HAS had an effect.

The fact is, women are NOT encouraged to learn how things work and how to fix them.

The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys." Let me make it perfectly clear that I do not think that all men with computer skills look down on women in technology. Some do, just as with every other field.

Look, nature vs. nurture is really a pointless debate. It's both. It's context. It's interaction. A multitude of factors contribute to any problem, and women in computing is no different. Sure, we could argue their relative importance until the end of time. I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones. I don't think I was clear in my previous post: I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.

Everything is interaction. Everything is context. Yes, it's a new start with each individual--potential. But no decision is made in a vacuum: it's impossible to make any choice without the influence of society, expectations, personal goals, etc.

Free will...hm. Not as free as I'd like to think.

poptones
July 25th, 2005, 01:45 AM
I'm not saying that women lack a crucial gene that causes men to understand cars, computers, and professional sports. I'm saying that women aren't encouraged to have that drive.

Yes, but I'm saying that doesn't matter. This argument is way too common - it's "societal" and "cultural." They said the same thing about being gay, that it's because they are "raised gay" somehow, that being molested in childhood or being taught to fear members of the opposite sex makes people gay. The same thing is also commonly said about child abusers and pedophiles when, in fact, objective science shows the direct opposite to be true - that people who are molested as children are less likely to molest, that people who were abused as children are more likely to police themselves to avoid repeating that mistake. (Not that this cannot follow a "tree," however - children are likely to become adults who carefully safeguard against the faults they percieve in their parents, which can cause an overcorrection - and so, their children, rebelling against those faults, end up making the same mistakes as the grandparents)

My mother encouraged me to pursue my interests in science and in music, but she died when I was a child. My father never encouraged me in anything, except financially, and I never asked him to buy me a doll so I have no idea how he would have reacted. Keep in mind, though, I was a child long before the pop cultural rise of anime. Were I that same boy of ten or twelve today I might indeed be asking for an anime model kit (http://www.hobbyfan.com/popup_image.php?pID=459&pic=e) rather than a funny car. Such things simply did not exist when I was a boy (I suppose that would have at least put his mind to rest regarding me being attracted to girls).


The fact is, women feel uncomfortable with technology because of society's reaction, as well as the sexist views held by some "computer guys."

But... why is this seen as a "problem?" How often do we hear of special programs directed at encouraging men to settle down from their careers and become house-husbands?

Like I said, the reason those guys often try to pick up on women is because it's just part of who guys are. Guys are driven to sex and this is not some social construct - gay men tend to be just as aggressive among one another as straight men toward women. When I was working phone support I often found myself being flirted with by gay men - and guess what? I enjoy it. I like being flirted with and I would sometimes respond in kind. I'm not gay but many of my friends are and, frankly, since I'm not twenty five any more I kind of miss being checked out not just by the cute girls but even the old men at the gym. Anyway, I'm supposed to be editing not adding more crap here...


I really don't see a huge difference of opinion, Poptones. I don't think I was clear in my previous post: I don't think computing is an innate skill, I don't think that the patriarchial structure of society is wholly responsible for male-dominated industries, I don't think that society's expectations are the only problem.

And apparently I wasn't enirely clear about what I disagreed with, at least so far as what I thought I read in your original comment. What I mean is that it IS "nurture" but it's not so much a matter of encouraging this interest or that, but of engendering confidence. And I am not so certain that is even possible to the degree in women as it is in men, simply because the male tendency is to completely overestimate one's self. (That tendency is not just because "boys are raised that way" for I can assure you I was not and though I lack confidence I still too often suffer overconfidence to a degree I have rarely seen in any woman. )

And I am certain (but of course unable to objectively prove, for if that were possible I would be telling this to everyone from Oprah to Nelson Mandela) that the difference in the sexes plays a part in it - to wit: hormonal and physiological differences have been shown to lead to certain "stereotypical" differences. I don't know anyone who would not agree that higher levels of testosterone seems to directly lead to certain behaviors - and, speaking as a former bodybuilding enthusiast I know from experience it affects both women and men in very similar fashion. But men are "blessed" with higher levels of this through much of their early lives, which is going to lead to early reinforcement of thought patterns and behaviors, which leads to more repetition of certain behaviors...

I don't think women's lack of confidence is just a matter of nurture is what I mean. and that lack of confidence will play an important role. I'm tempted to really break this down (ie racial and cultural) for more specific examples, but I fear that might, likewise, really trigger a flame war. Anyway, think of those hormonal balances and how they might tend to vary given differing genetic lines. Societies and cultures shape evolution for humans just as much as for animals, therfore it is reasonable to expect that in certain cultures women who are docile and submissive are more likely to reproduce and that men who are aggressive and successful in some capacity (even if it is just at domineering and exploiting others through force) will also be more likely to reproduce. What impact do you expect this would have on evolution in that geography? In other cultures, however, women who are flambouyant and confident and outspoken may be more likely to get the attention.

Is it any accident artists tend to have artistic children? What then of engineers? That is whole different type of commitment - yet there are women doctors and I don't know anyone who reacts negatively to that.

I'm saying that stereotypes are no accident - and that "social" does not simply mean "psychological" but real, physical differences. Anomalies do exist (and yes, I do consider myself one of those anomalies) but their existence does not disprove the basic accuracy of an archetype.

Having said that, where do we go to start a "poofs of ubuntu" discussion area? All they're talking about in the "otaku" discussion is robots and mechas and stuff...

senorcheaposgato
July 25th, 2005, 02:47 AM
I won't dispute the importance of biology. Genetics, hormones, etc. do play a part in the way we are. I'm not arguing that point.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things. Yes, humans evolve just like everything else. But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone. No man is an island. The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations. To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out." You can't breed alone.

Yes, I am different than men. I am also different than women, although this difference is (biologically) less significant. Biologically, hormonally, emotionally, psychologically....I'm not what you are.

I'm not saying that stereotypes are all lies. Yes, they do exist for a reason. However, stereotypes are a lot like statistics: over an entire population, they may hold true. On an individual level, don't trust them. If 3 out of 7 people do [behavior X] then it's tempting to say "Hey, out of the 7 people I ate dinner with last night, 3 of them engage in [behavior X]!" Statistically speaking, you should be right. Are you? quite possibly not. It may be that [behavior X] is more prevalent in men from Maine, and you ate dinner with 7 women from Nevada.

Biology plays a role, undoubtedly. I agree that stereotypes are based in some truth, but only apply at the population level. There are differences that cannot be explained by nurture; there are also differences that cannot be explained by nature.

It's more complicated than that.

poptones
July 25th, 2005, 03:49 AM
Personally, I'm not a big fan of evolutionary psychology. It has it's points, it makes sense in a lot of ways. However, I think it completely overlooks a lot of things. Yes, humans evolve just like everything else. But (here it comes...) they don't evolve alone. No man is an island. The mating behaviors that have determined the direction of evolution across the globe occurred in group situations. To the best of my knowledge, the only impact solo mating behaviors have had on evolution is to "weed it out." You can't breed alone.

I miss something here, because every point you make seems directed toward proving the validity of the thing you claim to not be "a fan of."

Of course you're not what I am. So? I'm not what most men are, either. we're all different but as different as we are we're still similar in many ways and, within that, many of us are similar in more ways still. But one doesn't diminish the importance of the other.

newbie2
August 9th, 2005, 01:17 PM
“Neither of them responded,” she said.
"Diliwal did admit, however, that the data might exist."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/09/ms_loses_women/

krusbjorn
August 9th, 2005, 05:13 PM
Really? In what ways? I live in the deep south. All I see from "positive discrimination" is how it breeds even deeper resentment in the segment that feels threatened. You cannot outlaw bigotry any more than you can outlaw love.

Well, I can only speak for Sweden, but it has done a lot of good here.

If there are second to none women in a certain profession there are also second to none women getting experience in that profession. If you need a new employee and get to choose from one with experience and one who has the education needed but dont have any experience working, you choose the one with experience. Of course, no one can blame you for that.

When the public sector (or any other institution or company) use positive discrimination, the men, of course, feel that they are treated unfarily. And perhaps they are. If you are more skilled than your competitors for the job, and they dont choose you, of course it's unfair. That's the bad side of it.

The pro, however, is that if more women get employed, more women will have experience. And after a while, there will be a lot of more women in the profession, which will motivate even more women to educate themselves in the subject. When you have used positive discimination for a while, you won't need it anymore, since there will be a "better" balance between men and women in the profession.

There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with care , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.

Thats how it have worked here. Of course, I have no idea whatsoever of how it has worked in the States or other countries.

Cheers.

endy
August 13th, 2005, 10:46 PM
Mod parent +5 Insightful...

Oh wait, wrong site :D

manicka
August 14th, 2005, 12:30 AM
There are always good and bad sides. I believe that if you use positive discrimination (for women, immigrants or whatever), and use it with care , it can actually have tremendous effects over time. It simply gets things rolling, and once rolling, it will keep doing that by itself.

bravo, well said :)

manicka
August 14th, 2005, 02:36 AM
I shouldn't even get involved in this, given my opinion that -- man or woman -- you do not deserve anything in life unless you can earn it on your own merits. If you're not good enough, then that's nobody's fault but your own.
ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.

Stormy Eyes
August 14th, 2005, 02:53 AM
ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

I should know better than to suggest on an international forum that government solutions only breed more problems. Oh well.

bam
September 5th, 2005, 05:20 PM
ah, the vitriolic prose of the white middle class male and the myth that everyone has the same opportunites in life.

It never ceases to amaze me how many people believe this to be our reality.


opportunities are what we make them, you may see it as an obstacle, I see it as an opportunity. Just a matter of viewpoint, not society.

[quote=A baby must even be taught how to suckle its mother,]
this is an autonomic response, doesnt have to be taught, its instinct.


as for the subject, who care where thwe knowledge came from man woman child monkey dog its all the same as long as something was gained. Right?

programgeek
October 13th, 2005, 03:41 AM
I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?

aysiu
October 13th, 2005, 03:52 AM
Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice. What would really be unnecessary is a Ubuntu Men because the Ubuntu forums are already overrun with men as it is--why make a separate forum for what already exists?

I'd highly recommend you read Unlocking the Clubhouse (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0262632691/qid=1129172077/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-6031602-0937443?v=glance&s=books). I checked it out of my library--very informative.

I realize your intentions are good, but I don't see that a debate like this will turn out productive. When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought:

1. Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination.

2. Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs.

Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

kelsey23
October 15th, 2005, 10:55 PM
I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?
Ubuntu Women is actually a pretty sexist idea. Who cares if I am a woman or if I am a man? I am a Linux user. I understand the idea is too make women feel more comfortable, but this forum is like saying "ohhhhhhh I see your a woman come here and post now!" Now that makes me uncomfortable. By your logic, we should have a "Ubuntu Gays" too, and I can bet you that a person who said they are gay or something would face a lot more harrsment than a person saying they are a woman.

aysiu
October 16th, 2005, 12:05 AM
Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.

2notch
October 16th, 2005, 08:00 AM
Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why.

There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum.

For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".

Suck it up guys, admit it. I do.

*** I'll probably get some heat on this...bring it on.***

-- vv

Lord Illidan
October 16th, 2005, 08:08 AM
Come on guys. Tell the truth. You and I both know that to find out that there were women out there that know how to compile a kernel, write a locked down PHP script, or even install Ubuntu on their mom's computer, is the object here. And you know why.

There's no discrimination here and you know it. It's the same in every other Linux forum.

For you Linux women that don't get it yet, the ultimate Linux geek bliss is to find a woman that thinks like they do. Talks on their level. One that eats, breathes and sh*ts Linux. It doesn't matter if you are Black, White, Asian, Indian or whatever. It's your *mind* that matters. Therefore, "Ubuntu Women".

-- vv

Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.

az
October 16th, 2005, 08:15 AM
Clearly, you subscribe to ideology #1. I subscribe to #2. Nice to meet you.
That's cool.


Here is my two cents:

So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
"Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
there will be a need to take action.

Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school. I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field. The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

2notch
October 16th, 2005, 08:18 AM
Ah, well... we Maltese men can wait.. and hope...
I haven't yet met a single girl in my school who can use Linux...so I am hoping in vain.

They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.

Lord Illidan
October 16th, 2005, 08:20 AM
They are so rare and therefore so highly sought after. Have faith my friend, it's the one you least suspect.

Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??

Lol...couldn't resist!!

2notch
October 16th, 2005, 08:25 AM
Gosh, does that mean that the Linux geekess at my school is that airhead blonde??

Lol...couldn't resist!!

Could be! That Mexican party girl of mine runs her own linux boxen now. Who would have known!

az
October 16th, 2005, 08:49 AM
....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

Lord Illidan
October 16th, 2005, 08:58 AM
....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

I dunno about the other, but I am certainly not ugly, and the last time I picked my nose was...the day before tomorrow...lol
Can't we have a joke here?

2notch
October 16th, 2005, 09:15 AM
That's cool.


Here is my two cents:

So long as there are people who begin their posts with:
"Hello gentlemen" or "I need a wise man to help"
there will be a need to take action.

Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school. I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field. The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.

az
October 16th, 2005, 10:35 AM
I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.

The thread lost credibility before that. That is the point.

2notch
October 16th, 2005, 11:19 AM
nuff said...gone to pick nose and seek out blonde, nose-picking Linux geekess.

Leif
October 16th, 2005, 11:34 AM
great. if I were a woman, what I'd take from this thread is that if I posted here, a bunch of horny geeks would know I'm a woman, and start chasing me.

geekchic9
October 16th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Exactly, Leif.

Viewing female Linux users as only something to chase after in order which to mate is a form of sexism. Why? Because they are being treated differently in a negative way than any other Ubuntu user.

I looked up sexism in my dictionary and it said that sexism is "discrimination against people on the basis of sex, specifically discrimination against, and prejudicial stereotyping of, women."

How is Ubuntu Women discriminating against women? The creators of this forum were not discriminating against women. They were advocating the use of Ubuntu for women.

Advocacy: "To speak or write in support of a cause."

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users? Although no factor alone can specifically determine why, I'm betting a large part of it comes from the sexism of male Linux users in the Linux community. Are you confused? Just look at this thread and Leif's disgusted reaction to it. It's a perfect reason why women are typically scared off from the Linux community.

This is why Ubuntu women have so much work to do. And why I ask supporters of Ubuntu women to make a stand and volunteer to help. It won't take much time or effort, if that's what you're worried about. Write a post supporting women Linux users. Go to #ubuntu-women on freenode.net. Encourage female friends who are sick of Windows to try Ubuntu. Any of these things would help out the cause, which is to encourage more women to try Linux.

Thanks for reading,
Morgan (geekchic9)

Teroedni
October 16th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Totally agree with you geekchic9:)
I think the UbuntuWomen is a good idea

flibble
October 16th, 2005, 02:55 PM
Great thread and a great idea for a Ubuntu Women forum.
I think you guys are probably totally decent people, but those comments you made are examples of how the society we live in effects all of us.
When you equate Ubuntu women with dumb blondes and mexican party girls, that has a negative impact on the women reading this forum. They're derogatory images. They paint a single picture that the value of women is their attractiveness (to men).
When you dismiss this impact by claiming you were 'only joking', that has an impact on the women reading this forum too.
I don't believe you guys intended to talk down to women, not for a second, but you did. Our society is steeped in this and it effects all of us and it happens all the time despite our best intentions. I'm certainly subject to it; I do it too. That's why we need to take action to address it by creating spaces where women are encouraged to speak.
It's us redressing a problem that we share, and doing so helps all of us.
Groovy :f

Leif
October 16th, 2005, 03:03 PM
I'm all for ubuntu-women. If it serves to make women new to ubuntu feel more welcome, it's well worth it. And to respond to the original poster, why yes, if black people feel they are being discriminated against in the linux community, or gay people(yes, I have seen homophobic comments on these forums), or any other community for that matter, and feel that they would like to do something about it, I think they should be given the platform.

Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

aysiu
October 16th, 2005, 04:18 PM
A lot of the issues we're discussing now are addressed in an article entitled How To Encourage Women in Linux (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/), including not making sexist jokes.

spooky-mac
October 16th, 2005, 04:31 PM
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that most Linux users are men. Why aren't more women Linux users?Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?

BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating.

Just my personal opinion. ;)

Leif
October 16th, 2005, 04:50 PM
Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?

and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ? you think society could have some part here ?

the point of this forum isn't to fascinate you. the point here is that women are already being treated as "different", whether you know it or not. this is an attempt to make up for that.

anyway, I'm getting tired of a bunch of guys sitting around discussing whether it's ok for the "womenfolk" to do something or not. perhaps it might be worthwhile to have a sticky about elementary affirmative action and feminism for this forum so these discussions can be put to rest.

aysiu
October 16th, 2005, 04:51 PM
BTW: I dislike the idea of a women forum, because it involuntarily leads to treating women as something "different". The ideals behind it might be some good ones, the result is not really fascinating. I think you'll find that men in Linux tend to treat women as something "different" regardless of whether you have a forum dedicated to women or not. Again, see link above.

And, honestly, sometimes it's okay to be seen as different. I hate it, for example, when white people say, "You know, I don't really see you as Asian." Well, what do you see me as then? What are you--blind? I'm copying Margaret Cho's comedy routine, but I've often felt the same way. The question is really does that "difference" make you mistreat the person (say as a sexual object) or encourage you to realize how underrepresented certain populations are in the Linux community.

Unfortunately, debates like these are usually counterproductive and put activists in a catch-22. If we say there's a problem, we're accused of whining or having a victim mentality. If we don't say there's a problem, the problem doesn't get fixed. As I said before (which people seem to have conveniently ignored), if one of my arms has its muscles atrophying, I may, in fact, treat it as "different" from other body parts until it's exercised enough to be balanced out with the rest of my body. You don't give medicine to everyone, just the sick ones.

There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.

Lord Illidan
October 16th, 2005, 04:54 PM
Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?

kvidell
October 16th, 2005, 05:00 PM
Ok, I take back my deragatory comments...
About Ubuntu Women forum, why not let the women decide?
Have you actually read the forum?
This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
:-P

And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k :-P)
- Kev

towsonu2003
October 16th, 2005, 09:33 PM
Have you actually read the forum?
This is in no way shape or form the only topic about this...
:-P

And where's my LBGT forum? (j/k :-P)
- Kev

Hey, that's a good idea too! (not joking) Why not?

It would be soo cool! Is there demand (now there is)?

As for the original question:
Sexism and devotion to patriarchy (being too political? let me know) is too common among men (geek or not), so a Ubuntu Women to "let" (sic) women be comfortable (and raise their voice when necessary as a sub-community) seems to be an excellent idea.

poptones
October 16th, 2005, 10:04 PM
This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to make an example...

Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man...

But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people identifying themselves by products? Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define other women by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").

I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the symbols of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.

Leif
October 16th, 2005, 10:24 PM
This is going to sound like a troll, but I use the example only to make an example...

Where is the intergenerational forum? And the beastiality forum? Some of us just can't play your games, man...

But seriously... don't you think the question of "why aren't there more women linux users" really just comes down to the notion of people identifying themselves by products? Car companies play this up - for example, the Ford Escort and the newer Cougar were designed specifically to make them more appealing to women - but how many women define themselves by the car they drive? How many women define other women by the car they drive? Women even accept the notion of men being defined by the type of car they drive when they don't allow it of themselves - ie "he drives a benz" means something differen to a women than "she drives a benz" (if she even notices that "she drives a benz").

I know women who use linux because they are social conservatives who use linux because it fits with their political beliefs. But that still doesn't mesh with model of the men (like myself) who use it for the very same reason - because women tend to define themselves more by the epehemeralities of "politics" and "beliefs" first and the "products" just naturally follow - but men tend to focus first on the symbols of their beliefs, rather than the beliefs themselves.

I don't even understand what the point of that post was, but I'll bite.

yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is exactly the same thing as bestiality. it's always the same argument, as if there's some kind of slippery slope from good old traditional values. "Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria."

as for the car thing, you're generalising from a single, traditionally male example (the bigger the car...). So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then.

matthew
October 16th, 2005, 10:44 PM
I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense.

We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

I realize that perhaps <pick your favorite minority> might also be under-represented. I also know that no group has found it as difficult as women have at times to break in to the men's club feeling that often dominates the Linux world. If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present. You will likely hear sexist remarks and probably watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters. Hmm...why wouldn't she feel comfortable?

So, I don't see a need to start a "blond/brunette/redhead" series of forums. Nor do I see a need to start one based on skin tone or nation of origin. I do see a real need to work in two directions so that 51% of the world's population feels welcome here.

First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments. The moderators are doing a GREAT job with that.

Second, we need to actively say, "Hey, ladies! We want you to come and be a part. We want your knowledge and insights as intelligent, capable computer users (or just plain people for newbies)." This separate forum was designed to say that in as loud and obvious a way possible.

poptones
October 17th, 2005, 02:40 AM
So you do not know a single woman who wants a Chanel dress ? A Gucci bag ? Jimmy Choo/Manolo Blahnik shoes ? Tiffany diamonds ? No ? Maybe it's just my circle of friends then.

Must be.

Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know of some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts.

yes, because a forum for women or lbgt is exactly the same thing as bestiality.

Fine. Leave out the beasiality (of which I was joking) but, since you address it, let's leave in the intergenerational part. Because there are grandparents out there and other older folks who we are not directly addessing and who could be. and what about the children? Where is the children's forum? are they to be relegated to the kubuntu project alone?

having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.

First, we need to police ourselves and this forum for sexist attitudes and comments.

Some people are sexist. Some people are racist. "Policing" them into silence also silences any opportunity to share and to learn, and propogates a lie.

If you go to a linux users group meeting you will almost always find it full of males with few to no females present.

That's just because so many of them are still in the nervertouchedaboobie club...

...watch the room fall lustfully silent if/when a lady enters.

Especially if she looks like Marta Kristin or Katherine Schell.

Personally, I'm still saving myself for Angela Cartwright...

matthew
October 17th, 2005, 06:54 AM
How many computer-girls looks good? 1 out of 10?:???: This is an example of the attitude I was discussing. Thank you for providing an example of why women often feel devalued in the computer world.

In the interest of balance, fairness and humor I offer the following:
How many male computer-geeks look good? 1 out of 10?

Who cares? That's not what the community is about.

reub2000
October 17th, 2005, 08:12 AM
This seems to be linux evangelism masquerading under feminism.

xingmu
October 17th, 2005, 12:31 PM
In reponse to Lief's comment that "maybe we should make a sticky..." I have drawn up a summary of the arguments and counter-arguments made about Ubuntu Women recently. I'll post here first, so that people can review it and add as they like. Then if we have consensus, perhaps we can make it a sticky and save ourselves from threads like this in the future.

Why do women need their own space on Ubuntu Forums?

aysiu: Women traditionally have felt alienated in the world of computing. If you look at any polls in Linux forums of gender, women are usually well under the 10% mark. I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.

Mattew: I think the whole point of having a separate forum for women is simple. We want to make sure that women, who are grossly under-represented in the Linux community, know that they are welcome. I don't mean welcome in the passive, "I've never done anything to discourage their being a part" sense. We want to welcome women in a more proactive way that says, "We know that sometimes in the Linux community you have been mistreated and we specifically want to communicate that we plan/intend/are working to make these forums a safe and welcoming place for you."

Creating a separate forum for women is discrimination.

xingmu: Although the word discriminate has the meaning "to set something apart from another," this does not necessarily entail unequal treatment. And before you begin to bring up the historical fallacy of "separate but equal," remember that neither women or men are not prohibited from participating in any Ubuntu forum they choose. Separate forums does not have anything to do with forced segregation, it's simply giving dedicated space to a topic in-demand.

aysiu: When it comes to things like this, there are basically two major schools of thought: (1) Nothing should ever be explicitly separate. To institute such a separation is tantamount to discrimination; (2) Discrimination has already happened. We're trying to single things out and correct the wrongs. Obviously, you subscribe to #1. I subscribe to #2. If my right arm is atrophying, I'm going to exercise my right arm a bit more than my left. I don't consider that discrimination--it's the rectification of a problem. Likewise, if I see very few women using Linux, I'm going to try to encourage them as much as possible.

Cool, now Ubuntu Forums has a place to pick up chicks.

xingmu: The purpose of Ubuntu Women is to welcome women in the Ubuntu community as a person (who has a mind and feelings), not as a sex toy. This type of unwanted sexual attention is exactly what has put some women off from computing. This forum is trying to provide a place where women will have some reassurance this type of sexism won't be tolerated.

Face it, women just aren't interested in computers. This forum is a waste of time.

Leif: and why do you think this is ? because of innate differences ? because God made us this way ? or do you think there's a slight possibility some of it may have something to do with women having been considered intellectually inferior for centuries and not allowed to take part in the technical professions ? you think society could have some part here ?

I don't think that women should have their own forum, it's not fair.

Leif: Just because I belong to the majority white-straight-male-techie demographic here, doesn't mean I should feel threatened by any development that aims to help someone other than me. What benefits any of us benefits all of us, as a community.

xingmu: If there are people who want this forum and use it, who are you to say whether they are entitled to it or not? There are no restrictions, that I have heard of, to prevent someone for making a case to create another special interest forum on Ubuntu Forums.

What does gender have to do with Ubuntu? OS's don't care what sex you are.

xingmu: An OS is made by people for people. It's not a living entity on it's own. So it's not that hard to see how gender and OS's can be related. For instance: How do we get more women involved in Ubuntu development? How do we encourage more women to use Ubuntu? How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks? And there are lots more issues that can relate to both Ubuntu and women. Hopefully we can address them here.

BLTicklemonster
October 17th, 2005, 02:59 PM
I don't want to sound like a troll.. But I do think I have my right to at least give my opinion..

Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

Operating systems have no advantage or disadvantage to people of different genders. Women, especially in the linux community aren't treated any differently from men in terms of their relation with the operating system.

Why women? What makes you so special? Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?
It's only sexist or racist if it's meant to be. Otherwise, you don't get it and should sit down and let people work things out themselves. Do you realize how much DOESN'T get done due to people outside looking in trying to be sidewalk referees constantly yelling sexism and racism and all other isms when in all reality it's nothing at all.

BLTicklemonster
October 17th, 2005, 03:05 PM
I completely agree with you here azz, however, you completely lost credibility with the nose picking thing.
I agree, that post really boogered it all up. Who knows where it would have gone otherwise? Yeah, I know, it's not funny.

Leif
October 17th, 2005, 06:18 PM
Honestly, I don't know any women like that. I may know of some women like that... but I don't know them personally, nor do I think I would have any more in common with them than with the men in my extended family who gather around the television for sports broadcasts..

look, this is a sidetrack, and I'm afraid the point of it still "escapes me", as you so nicely put it. you made a generalization, I suggested this may be incorrect because I know people who don't fit it, now you're saying since you don't relate to these people, my point is invalid. fine.



having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.

this is not about sexuality. I'm not in favour of the women's forum because they are women, but because I'm in favour of helping out those who may be facing an inordinate amount of hostility. when the dentists in this forum make it heard that they're being discriminated against, we'll discuss it. as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit. I'm not sure how many children use ubuntu, and whether old people are discriminated against, but surely we could also make them feel welcome, if that's what they want. if someone can create a tutorial that explains to my mother what the concept of a program, or window is, I will be eternally grateful.

there is an ongoing discussion whether anything not purely technical should be allowed on these boards. one point of view is that encouraging non-technical issues will create a community, instead of a helpdesk. I'm not sure about all implications of this, but I completely fail to see what harm the women's forum could do. then again, I guess that's because I do not see it as sexist.

BLTicklemonster
October 17th, 2005, 06:24 PM
You try to be nice, and this is what you get.

fluffy
October 17th, 2005, 11:14 PM
so that women dont have to put up with this kind of nonsense from people like u ... and so they can get on and help each other and let other women see that women use linux too

is that something that so threatens u that u have to post in opposition to it?

rjwood
October 17th, 2005, 11:26 PM
....Right and you two are probably ugly boys who pick your noses.

Why do matters of gender have to lead to matters of sexuality (or lack thereof?)

OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)

BLTicklemonster
October 17th, 2005, 11:42 PM
OH-AZZ your showing your age..isn't that what it is ---age. freud said everything leads to sex (or sexuality I guess)
Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)

rjwood
October 17th, 2005, 11:53 PM
I'm all for it ladies. It is a shame that from my point of view being an american guy and having 4sisters along with 2 much older brothers and 4 daughters and one son(middle child) (quite handsom too ladies), girls spend alot of time attacking one-another ( quite viciously i might add) during their school years while guy's are learning to bond using sports and the like. I have never really liked the idea of teaching girls to be much like guy's through sports and compitition,But maybe it's a good idea. I don't know. I do know that girls seem to feel very alone. Too bad. I watch my daughters suffer thru these things and am amazed at their strength. Keep it up ladies and I applaud you for caring for your gender. Unfortunatly most of us guy's don't get it early enough..

rjwood
October 17th, 2005, 11:56 PM
Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him) I agree mostly but he was the father of phychology and he was useful.

But I think he was more a victum of his time too as we all are.

poptones
October 18th, 2005, 02:55 AM
...as for the grandparents and children, despite you thinking this is hilarious, I think the idea has merit

Where did you get the idea I thought that was hilarious? I explicitly said "seriously" before making that point. I'm totally serious about that - there are more old people than there are women and every last one of us will, if we are lucky, grow old ourselves. Having a forum for older users and for children might well drive the creation of more and better software.

Simple example: you still cannot change the colors of links in either thunderbird or evolution. Unvisited links are this hideously garish blue that is almost unreadable with any color theme that does not put the blue on top of a light grey or green. With dark themes links are pretty much illegible unless you have perfect vision, and that ain't something most folks over 40 have - whether they be male or female. In fact this is probably LESS of a problem for men since some men can be colorblind (and thus see the blue as a lighter shade of grey) but colorblindness is not something at all common to women. This has been a "known bug" in evolution for YEARS (I actually found a discussion of this in an email thread from 2002 and the main developer then said he knew about it and had no time to devote to it) - years later, and still no one does anything about it. How about ubuntu putting a bounty on this?

eonish
October 20th, 2005, 10:11 PM
There's no point to having a men's forum, because we already have an almost-all-men's forum. There is a point to addressing the underrepresentation of women. If you don't want to address it, go live your life, but don't stop others from trying to help out.
I dont think we have any 'all-men's' forum at all. I dont see anything manly about threads like "OpenOffice 2 final released" or "HowTo: Install and Use Beagle Easily". We probably would have an almost-all-men's forum if there were threads such as "Top 50 women" or such. But I never saw that. So I would rate this community, safe-for-all (as long as you are interested in linux.. lol)


I believe in initiatives that help underrepresented populations get more representation. It's not sexist; it's sense. That's like saying it's distro-ist to have a Ubuntu forums instead of just a regular Linux forums or even just "forums." The whole idea is to target a population that needs a voice.
There are forums and communities representing almost every topic that is (or is not) worth discussing about. There are forums dedicated to discussing about movies, specific movies, men, men who smokes, women who smokes, smoking... everything!
This forum, I believe, is about Ubuntu - Linux for Human Beings. It is neither supposed to represent nor underrepresent men or women. Just a bunch of people discussing about ubuntu.

Now I understand what you are saying and I agree that there are too few women using linux. Ubuntu for women is an interesting idea. The IRC channel sounds like a great beginning for the cause.


How can we show new female users that the Linux community is not just for white male geeks?
Being a brown male geek... The idea that linux community seems to be for white male geeks _never_ crossed my mind once. My brown female non-geeky sister (who uses ubuntu 100% on her system, btw) never seemed to think so either... but I'll get her input later.

Mrtn
October 23rd, 2005, 11:24 PM
Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist. Its like saying, thats where you belong away from us superior and more intelligent men.

Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.

Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.

I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.

If this forum is not focused on women, then there is no use for it. What you basically are saying with this forum is that:

1. The main forum is focused on men, which may or may be not true but now it is stated as that it is true. This will make any future integration much more difficult because males will think: We had our own forum **** off and the females will think the same.

2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.

I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.

kanem
October 24th, 2005, 12:33 AM
Having a seperate forum for Women is sexist....
It's not up to the oppressive sex to determine what is and is not sexist against women. If women decided there was a need for a women's forum here then that's their perogative and you don't have the right to question it.

Now whether or not a women's section belongs in a Linux distro's forum is another matter to debate. And you may have some good reasons for why it shouldn't be present. But unless you have had to deal with sexism all your life as women have you don't get to decide if it's sexist or not.

Leif
October 24th, 2005, 12:41 AM
Martin, did you actually read this thread before posting, or did you just see the thread title and decide to post for the hell of it ? You say :



Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise. In fact, I think males would be glad for more females messing around with Linux.

despite you (miraculously) not having seen any, there's plenty of discrimination against women going on in the IT world.



Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. I would never ever check this forum as man, because it is made for women.


yes, yes, let's all pretend there's no disparity here.
you've completely misunderstood the point of this forum. it is not about segregating women, it's a place to discuss ideas on how to promote a better, more equal place for women in the ubuntu community.



I don't care who posts in what forum, but I refuse to post in a ubuntu women forum for any other reason than to say that it is crap. We love you to post in 'our' forums, because they aren't our forums. They are for ANYBODY with the same topic of interest. This forum is focused on women, hence it will not grab my attention.

why ? you say you'd like to have more women in linux. that's what this project is about.




2. Females should stick with this forum and stay away from the males.

I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong. I just feel that putting attention on women because they are women and they are a minority is bad. Women should get attention because they do something exceptional or something good for the community which would earn them respect in the community in the same way males earn it.

I'm really sorry, but I cannot understand how you've come to these conclusions, despite all the posts trying to sum up what this forum is about.

this is not about segregation. this is not putting women at the back of the bus. this is not about having the womenfold have their playground.

this is not a women-only forum. and this is definitely not where women are supposed to post about everything. technical things still go where they belong.

this is a forum about finding ways to level the playing field for women in linux, because they have to go through more hassle than you or I do. it's about discussing how to make a more inclusive community.

just because you don't know about the problems women may face, doesn't mean they don't exist. it may be that you even know some female linux geeks who get along just fine, and that's great, but I happen to have quite a few female friends in computer-related disciplines, and I know the crap they have to put up with sometimes. most men cannot even imagine these difficulties, because we never have to deal with them.

most importantly, this is a forum whose future the female users of ubuntu should get to decide upon, and so far, I have heard female voices in support of it, and the only voices opposing it are male.

me, I'm posting here because I feel strongly about creating equal opportunities. I feel much good can come from admitting the problems and discussing solutions. you don't want to help out, that's fine too.

matthew
October 24th, 2005, 03:37 AM
I think this forum will not improve the situation and make it far worse. But perhaps I am wrong.
You are wrong for all the reasons posted previously in this thread as well as recently by both kanem and Leif.

Mrtn, your post shows a complete lack of understanding of the actual issues being discussed and I find it utterly senseless to try to persuade you further as it is obvious you could not have read all the previous posts in this thread prior to making your ridiculous post. I'm not against you having an opinion. I am against you posting such strong statements with what appears to be no real effort to actually comprehend the various viewpoints first. Ignorance is forgivable, intelligently stated and thought out disagreements are fruitful, posting rehashed arguments and poorly thought out statements ("Having a separate forum for women is sexist") is just sad.

fuscia
October 29th, 2005, 01:26 AM
i demand a tranny forum.

towsonu2003
October 29th, 2005, 09:01 AM
Lmao, Freud was a sex fiend, everything lead to sex to him. (don't pay any attention to him)

the simple reason we even can talk about sex itself is freud, so don't be _so_ harsh on him :)

---------------------------------

also, I read so many posts saying that opening a women's forum is sexist. I'm simply amazed. people really need to read some stuff about feminism, especially radical feminism, in order to understand that a free (read: free from men) space for women is always useful _against_ sexism (and patriarchy, for that matter).

The basic reading I can offer is "A Room of One's Own" by Virginia Woolf (should be available in your local library), a very well known book by an extremely well known feminist. In this book, she proposes (in _over_simplified terms) all women should get a "room" of their own to keep themselves away from the "boredom" (sic) caused by men's socio-economic demands and domination.

I believe this forum will be very useful for both the women end-users of ubuntu and its women developers, once the forum is cleared from thread(/t)s like "what's the point", "change the name", and "can women post here for tech" (and that's my own post). I believe that these thread(t)s (and the ones that are sure to come) are the response of a patriarchal society's 'natural' reaction to a women-controlled community.

------------------------------------

I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously.

Ubuntu can make its way into identity politics and sociology/women's studies classes as the only IT product that is open and welcome to all identities (in those identities' terms)... This is as radical as linux can get.

fuscia
October 29th, 2005, 07:28 PM
people really need to read some stuff about feminism, especially radical feminism, in order to understand that a free (read: free from men) space for women is always useful _against_ sexism (and patriarchy, for that matter).

as in 'free from beer'?



I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously.

oops! i thought you guys were joking too. my bad.

dbott67
October 29th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Actually, everybody is WAAAAYYYY off base as to why this forum was created:

It's the only place in the forums that that female Ubuntu users don't have to worry about someone leaving the toilet seat up.

Simple (that, and no pee on the seat, either).

-Dave

fuscia
October 29th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Actually, everybody is WAAAAYYYY off base as to why this forum was created:

It's the only place in the forums that that female Ubuntu users don't have to worry about someone leaving the toilet seat up.

is it for women only? (serious question)

dbott67
October 29th, 2005, 07:56 PM
As long as you put the seat down, I'm pretty sure you're welcome here.

(I mean, you're here... I'm here... azz is here... aysiu is here... we're all guys... I think)

Of course, now all the women are rolling their eyes and thinking, "Heck, we LET them have every other forum on these boards and all they want to do is hang out in here.. C'mon girls, let's go to the garage and fix the car."

fuscia
October 29th, 2005, 08:07 PM
i don't need an electric fence to be kept out of women's bathrooms. i just need to know if it is open to everyone, or not. if it's a clubhouse for women - fine, i'm gone and 'sorry for the intrusion'. but, if it's for discussion of women and ubuntu, in which all are invited to participate, that would be quite different. either way is cool with me.

BinaryDigit
November 1st, 2005, 03:25 AM
My understanding is that this forum was created to encourage more female linux users. It's not only exclusive to women, it's just mean to encourage *more* women to discuss issues, whether it be sex related, computer related, experiences we've gone through in life, etc. Men and women can chime in just like any other forum on this site.

matthew
November 1st, 2005, 04:47 AM
It's not only exclusive to women, it's just mean to encourage *more* women to discuss issues
I'm pretty sure that was just typed quickly.
I think you intended to write "It's not only not exclusive to women, it's just meant to encourage..."
:):):)

BLTicklemonster
November 1st, 2005, 04:53 AM
How many Windows sites show enough interest in chicks to be nice enough to giv- whoa, I mean how many Windows sites show enough interest in females to give them a place to talk to one another?

I think it showed class (unlike me just now, of course).

(I can't believe 1. that this post exists 2. that it's still going on.)

warpforge
November 1st, 2005, 11:08 PM
It's not up to the oppressive sex to determine what is and is not sexist against women. If women decided there was a need for a women's forum here then that's their perogative and you don't have the right to question it.
This is very poorly reasoned. It's even a logical fallacy. Someone's personal stake in a matter doesn't grant them any authority over a topic. A well-reasoned argument will always trump "but it affects ME!" I can only scoff at your notion that I have no right to question your ideology.

Your post is rife with loaded terms like "the oppressive sex," as if oppression is inherent in the male gender as much as you argue computer illiteracy is NOT inherent to the female gender. You can't have it both ways. Males can't have inherent evil characteristics while females enter the world tabula rasa.

This forum is a bad idea for several reasons, but the question that most concerns me is, "What is this forum FOR?" Can males post questions here? Are males allowed to post responses to inquiries for females? I assume the answer to the latter is "yes," but then how would that response differ from a response in the main forum? Do you intend responses to talk down to thread posters in this forum? I assume not. And do you really expect users to check this forum IN ADDITION TO other relevant forums for questions? Seems like a waste of time.

The only value I see to forums like these are to establish social groups, and perhaps that's best done more broadly than with Ubuntu.

geekchic9
November 2nd, 2005, 06:17 AM
Warpforge,

You post some good questions. We plan to discuss the first one more generally at #ubuntu-women this Saturday (Nov. 5) from 12 PM to 5 PM CST. Can anyone convert that to UTC? If you (any of you) can't make it, but want to answer the question "What is 'Ubuntu Women' FOR?", then send me an email at morganlandry (at) gmail (dot) com. I look forward to everyone's responses!

Ted_Smith
November 27th, 2005, 03:41 AM
I'm new to Ubuntu and these forums. While browsing to see what's where, I noticed this forum and it caught my eye. Not because I thought 'Hey, they'll be load of chicks chatting there - I'll go and spy on them', but what I actually thought was 'How cool is that - a targetted Linux forum for women - I'll go and see what stuff they've suggested, contributed, created, etc'. Instead, the first thing I read is a forum titled 'What's the point?' and a load of 'political correctness' debates to follow.

Come on...no one can ever do right these days. Why can't people accept things for what they are. There's hardly any women in computing generally, especially Linux. I work in the field of forensic computing - a very narrow, specialist and evolving field concisting of only a couple of thousand people. There's probably less than 50 women in that but those women contribute a lot of good stuff - no different to the men. But would they all want to meet up and have a party of their own without any of the guys? Probably. But if us men suggested it, would we be criticised for suggesting it and get called sexist pigs? Probably.

I think it's great that someone has taken the initiative to encourage Linux women to get more involved with Linux with the supposed incentive that women chat with women. Shame it can't be taken the way it is intended.

Ted

matthew
November 27th, 2005, 05:02 AM
Ted: thank you!

BLTicklemonster
November 27th, 2005, 06:01 AM
I'm new to Ubuntu and these forums. While browsing to see what's where, I noticed this forum and it caught my eye. Not because I thought 'Hey, they'll be load of chicks chatting there - I'll go and spy on them', but what I actually thought was 'How cool is that - a targetted Linux forum for women - I'll go and see what stuff they've suggested, contributed, created, etc'. Instead, the first thing I read is a forum titled 'What's the point?' and a load of 'political correctness' debates to follow.

Come on...no one can ever do right these days. Why can't people accept things for what they are. There's hardly any women in computing generally, especially Linux. I work in the field of forensic computing - a very narrow, specialist and evolving field concisting of only a couple of thousand people. There's probably less than 50 women in that but those women contribute a lot of good stuff - no different to the men. But would they all want to meet up and have a party of their own without any of the guys? Probably. But if us men suggested it, would we be criticised for suggesting it and get called sexist pigs? Probably.

I think it's great that someone has taken the initiative to encourage Linux women to get more involved with Linux with the supposed incentive that women chat with women. Shame it can't be taken the way it is intended.

Ted

lmao, we are supposed to have a free and open society, yet the minute you try to be inclusive, the vocal minority comes unhinged and starts criticizing everyone.

towsonu2003
November 27th, 2005, 08:05 AM
/me is surprised that this thread is still alive... guys->nothing better to contribute?

PS. I know posting here to say that is paradoxical... I am...

psyguy92
November 27th, 2005, 08:51 AM
Linux has nothing to do with gender. From this starting point, a women's forum is silly. That's my first reponse.

Before you flame me, here's my second response:
Ubuntu has made a sociopolitial statement with the variation of race and gender in its artwork and the general tones it sets. It's an all-inclusive community. To the extent that we are to be an inclusive community built around the commonality of interest in FOSS/computing, we should support diversification of topics that bind us together as a community. This entails fragmentation, because groups of people will be drawn together (and thus apart from the main group) based on interest/commonality. If there is a strong enough pull to coalesce around an interest or identity, be it gender, race, sexual orientation, or an artistic flare, the creation of and participation in a subforum based on that interest or identity serves to nurture a cohesive framework of participation and sharing that underpins a community.

This seems positive to me. If the women's group thrives, there is interest. If it doesn't, it essentially does not exist. If we want a gay group, a black group, a muslim group, a xyz group, we should say so. If xyz thrives, there is interest. If not, redirect to /dev/null.

cheers!

xelink
November 27th, 2005, 09:22 AM
no offense, but who gives a damn? I couldn't care less how someone else was born, it's their choices and their lifestyle that I try to judge by.

Also, I don't care that ubuntu stands for class, racial, gender, [insert group here] equality or anything, I couldn't give a care if people are equal - simply because it is not the nature of the world. Clearly races, genders, groups, etc. are not equal, not in anyway. How is it fair that some are more vulnerable to one disease over another? How is it fair that one race is more apt for a certain task. It is not fair nor is it equal. I don't care about equality per se, I care about being fair and just. If someone, is moral hardworking, and an overall high acheiver, I am going to respect them no matter what. The idea of social-racial-economic-gender-etc. equality is based on an impossibility, something which would be novel, but just isn't the case. The best thing to do is just give everyone their just deserts and simply not care. Atleast that is how I see it. I am only 16 though, my views may change in time. One could say my definition of being humane fals somewhere along the lines above, being fair and just, helping a brother out, even if you aren't a brother.

What I do care about is that this is a good distro, with a good comunity, aimed towards ease of use, and functionability.

lotusleaf
November 28th, 2005, 02:18 AM
I don't want to sound like a troll

Yet you follow with the word:


But

so too late. :)


Do you realize how sexist the idea of "Ubuntu Women" is?

What about debian women? (http://women.alioth.debian.org/) Perhaps you should ask them if their site is sexist? :rolleyes:


Should we make an ubuntu for blacks too?

Do you have issues with BET (http://www.bet.com/) too? :rolleyes:

ironwoodcarver
November 28th, 2005, 06:39 AM
well hello to all see not gender specific I'm an older male and remeber the burning of the bra's in the 60s I will tell you that personnally I could care less of what other forums other users use as I see it we are supposed to be all inclusive but if someone is not comfortable in one environment they should be able to go to an environment thay are comfortable in I don't see the issue maybe I'm blind by the way I am a male.white and straight and like to tell sexist jokes to feminists but that does not mean I don't respect them.

What the feminist movement did was fight for their rights as the blacks did in the US all the more power to them I'm an artist and I will never say my art is better then a woman or gay person we all have our uniqueness and thats what should be appreciated to knock one group of people shows lack of understanding and I know this will make some people angry but so what it tells me they are lacking in education. If we discrimate agianst an other we had better educate ourselves about them before we judge them.:confused:

ironwoodcarver
December 3rd, 2005, 06:45 AM
wow it appears I have had the last word on this topic I can't believe , well dreams do come through :)

Kelpie
December 5th, 2005, 03:28 AM
i once was in a school with an exchange student from some other country who said windows was horrible and linux was better and she was a girl...

xD with that said, i'm a female too, i havent used linux yet but i think i will get the hang of it, once i get some things, but yeah im one of those rare geeky girls fascinated in geeks and computers xD and electronics period

i dont think its sexist, its just something to make females feel more comfortable about it, computers like everything else has been seem to be a 'guy' thing, but some of us girls dont care xD

BWF89
December 8th, 2005, 03:52 AM
I don't see why we need a seperate forum for women.

Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?

Leif
December 8th, 2005, 07:47 PM
I don't see why we need a seperate forum for women.

Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?

so you're saying women should be ok as long as they don't use their own name (Jane, Mary etc. are not really unisex) or anything feminine sounding.

women : welcome as long as you hide your gender !

aysiu
December 8th, 2005, 09:31 PM
Isn't it true, too, that women who don't have a distinctly feminine-sounding username are also immune to sexist remarks and demeaning sexual comments about women?

Stormy Eyes
December 8th, 2005, 09:35 PM
Unless their name implies that their a girl (names with chick, girl, and women) whose going to know what they are anyway?

And who's going to care? Pardon my Arabic, but the possession of a **** and balls isn't going to make somebody more proficient with Linux.

Roobert
December 9th, 2005, 01:53 AM
so you're saying women should be ok as long as they don't use their own name (Jane, Mary etc. are not really unisex) or anything feminine sounding.

women : welcome as long as you hide your gender !

I don't ever consider gender unless it's explicitly brought up in a post. Everyone is a tagline and a graphic, for god's sake. Even the ones with women's names could be guys trolling as women. So I don't think about it or really care for that matter what gender you happen to be.

TeeAhr1
December 10th, 2005, 09:24 PM
Sorry, latecomer to this thread (I just had the feeling that it was bound to get ugly and flame-y, and wanted no part of it - whether or not I was right, you may be the judge). But I finally bit, and would like to add my perspective. Sorry if this is long, but I've got eight pages of replys to consider here.

First off, I was unsure before, but having seen some of the reactions just on this thread, I totally agree with Asyiu, Leif, et. al. Immaturity and willful ignorance such as have been demonstrated here are the reason a women's forum is important. IMPORTANT NOTE: I'm not saying everyone who disagrees with that opinion is being immature or ignorant. But a couple of people damn well have been, and I don't feel the need or the desire to name names; in your heart, you know who you are. Hell, I'm a guy, and I don't want to listen to some of this crap either; can't imagine how I'd feel if I were a woman.

Okay, so there's my general thesis. A few points were raised that I'd like to speak more specifically to:


Very simple: Because males seem to be generally more interested in computers, just as they are more interested in cars, trains, aeroplanes, anything that has to do with high-tech. Many men see computers as a "fascinating toy", while most women see them as a worktool and don't make much noise about it. And some 75% of Windows users are male, too... so what's the point?
Okay, I don't know where you got that stat, but I'm willing to roll with it as a back-of-the-napkin number, until/unless someone shows me differently. And it's a good point. Here's another number for you to chew on. According to the age and gender poll on this site (and yes, I know that a forum poll is inherently unscientific, but I don't have any more reliable numbers, if you do, post 'em), we are 96% male. Ninety-six. Last I checked, 51% of the global population was female. I'd say we have an issue here.

Anybody is welcome in the forums! I never ever saw anybody make any remark from which you could conclude otherwise.
For the record, me either, until this thread (not you, Mrtn).

Its just dumb, its admitting that they are under-represented and putting them into a seperate cabinet because for now they are so small that we should fit them in there. Let them write on the same forums, because if they write something nice then it will be good if everyone is able to read it. *snip*
I don't think that's the point of the women's forum at all. I had actually never looked at it before, but just went over and kind of skimmed to get an idea of the conversations going on, and it seems to be mostly a general discussion forum, like this one, focusing more on issues of specific interest to women. It is not a technical support forum. If it was, I'd agree with you 100%. I would ask the question, "why is it tucked away as a subcategory of '3rd Party Projects?'" Women do post in the main technical forums, and have helped me with my dumbass newbie problems several times.

Martin, did you actually read this thread before posting, or did you just see the thread title and decide to post for the hell of it? *snip*
Okay, you made some other totally vaild points in this post, but the tone was kind of mean. I don't think Martin was trying to be confrontational here at all.

no offense, but who gives a damn? *snip* What I do care about is that this is a good distro, with a good comunity, aimed towards ease of use, and functionability.
Well, I give a damn, for one. But you are totally right in that you are under no obligation to, and that's fine, and I'm certainly not going to respect you one bit less for it. It's a forum available for those who want to use it, and if you don't, then that's your perogative. I personally think the the user support here is excellent, and there's a great community of people around it that make that possible. If you're not interested in a particular topic of discussion on another part of the forum, fine.

Pardon my Arabic, but the possession of a **** and balls isn't going to make somebody more proficient with Linux.
You're brilliant, thx!

having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.
NOTE: I am deliberately not quoting or discussing your appallingly offensive bestiality comment, except to say that I am thoroughly disgusted at you. Moving on to more discussion-worthy points.

Disclosure: I'm gay. Yeah, "eew," go ahead, get it out of your system.

I don't know about dentists, not being one. I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, almost as base a self-identifier as one's gender. Would you say, for example, "I am a dentist man?" I am a gay man. Notice the order in which those words fell. Using the same logic as earlier, you may or may not choose to believe that 10% of the population is queer. Personally, I don't even know if I believe that, but it's a commonly used number, derived from Kinsey, IIRC. Anyone here believe that 10% of the people who post in ubuntuforums are queer? I don't.

I said earlier that I had never heard an explicity sexist comment in the technical forums. A search for the word "gay" brings up 65 hits. "Queer" gets 12, "***" 3, "******" 2, and 6 for "homo." (Note: I did not actually read these threads, just searched for the word. I'm sure that not all of those 65 for "gay" were homophobic.) How many posts have been removed for homophobic comments I have no idea.

Which leads nicely into...

If there is a strong enough pull to coalesce around an interest or identity, be it gender, race, sexual orientation, or an artistic flare, the creation of and participation in a subforum based on that interest or identity serves to nurture a cohesive framework of participation and sharing that underpins a community.

This seems positive to me. If the women's group thrives, there is interest. If it doesn't, it essentially does not exist. If we want a gay group, a black group, a muslim group, a xyz group, we should say so. If xyz thrives, there is interest. If not, redirect to /dev/null.

I also read about the posts (to this forum) that joked about opening separate forums for transsexuals, lesbians, and other oppressed identities. Although their authors were just joking (in order to downplay this particular community as well as all those identities), I believe their ideas were invaluable and must be considered seriously.

Ubuntu can make its way into identity politics and sociology/women's studies classes as the only IT product that is open and welcome to all identities (in those identities' terms)... This is as radical as linux can get.
Absolutely, you both said it better than I could have. Furthermore, I hereby formally move that an expirimental "Ubuntu GLBTQ" forum be considered. As psyguy said, if there's no interest, then the hell with it. If it takes off, I think it would be a fantastic thing for not only Ubuntu, but the Linux/open source community in general. Every single voice we add makes us stronger. I mean, if that's not the point of open source, what is?

Okay, I've said my piece. I told you it was going to be long.

Leif
December 10th, 2005, 09:27 PM
I don't ever consider gender unless it's explicitly brought up in a post. Everyone is a tagline and a graphic, for god's sake. Even the ones with women's names could be guys trolling as women. So I don't think about it or really care for that matter what gender you happen to be.

great, and neither do I. unfortunately, not everyone feels this way.

poptones
December 10th, 2005, 10:57 PM
I don't know about dentists, not being one. I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, almost as base a self-identifier as one's gender.

Wrong. Completely. Utterly. Totally.

I don't know what's up your butt on this, but most of my friends are gay. A couple have also been transgendered... calling me a homophobe because I disagree with you says much more about you than about me.

If you are a man who expresses himself outwardly as a woman, that is an expression of gender - you are, for all practical purposes, a woman. It has nothing to do with what may or may not be dangling between your legs nor does it have a ****ing thing to do with your sexual orientation. I have a friend in Atlanta who got a sex change operation because he perceived himself to be a woman; now she has been living with her girlfriend about two years.

That she is attracted to women or men is not something that can be discerned from her expression of gender. You would have no way of knowing her or my sexuality without asking and, unless that person offers the information it is none of your business anyway.

Discrimination against people based on their beliefs is wrong - but as a breeder who has faced a lifetime of that very same discrimination simply because of my mannerisms and personal style I can still state this is not at all the equivalent of discrimination against people because of their skin color or their gender.

psyguy92
December 11th, 2005, 12:54 AM
Quoting TeeAhr1:I don't know about dentists, not being one. I do know that one's sexuality is, if not quite, almost as base a self-identifier as one's gender.

Reply by poptones:
Wrong. Completely. Utterly. Totally.
-=snip=-

Discrimination against people based on their beliefs is wrong - but as a breeder who has faced a lifetime of that very same discrimination simply because of my mannerisms and personal style I can still state this is not at all the equivalent of discrimination against people because of their skin color or their gender.

Firstly, sexual orientation is not a belief. It is an identity, as are female and male and white and black.

I'm sorry to hear of your plight - having been assumed to be such an extreme pariah - being assumed to be gay... *sigh*. And no, lets not equate discrimination based on sexual orientation with discrimination based on gender. Why not?

Women: paid less (assuming incompetence) and raped (assuming weakness and male entitlement).
Blacks: ever heard of the klan?
Gays: heard of Matthew Shepard?
Quoting Wikipedia:
Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, 21-year-old Matthew Shepard met Aaron James McKinney and Russell Arthur Henderson in a bar. According to McKinney, Shepard asked them for a ride home. Subsequently, Shepard was robbed, severely beaten, tied to a fence and left to die. McKinney and Henderson also found out his address, intending to burgle his home. Shepard was discovered, by a bicyclist, 18 hours later, alive and unconscious.

Shepard suffered from a fracture from the back of his head to the front of his right ear. He also had severe brain stem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heartbeat, body temperature, and other vital signs. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. He died at 12:53 a.m. on October 12 at Poudre Valley Hospital in Fort Collins, Colorado.

Police arrested McKinney and Henderson shortly thereafter, finding the bloody gun as well as the victim's shoes and wallet in their truck. The two murderers had attempted to get their girlfriends to provide alibis.

Not stated in that quote was that the murderers pretended to be gay to lure Matthew, and that Matthew was targeted because of his sexual orientation.

In our enlightened day and age, gays are beaten bloody with the end of a pistol, tied to fences, and left for dead just for being gay. Surely one can find no marginalization and drive to associate amongst one another based on this. Doesn't it seem reasonable to downplay discrimination in this case?

Downplaying discrimination is a recipe for atrocity. Please be careful.

poptones
December 11th, 2005, 02:49 AM
In our enlightened day and age, gays are beaten bloody with the end of a pistol, tied to fences, and left for dead just for being gay.

Blah blah blah... oh poor me...

It is not my responsibility or that of Ubuntu to atone for these idiocies. There is simply no way for anyone here to know whether you are gay or straight or black or white or green or male or female or anything else if you do not make it an issue yourself.

The way you reacted to my comments about beastiality portray your hypocrisy in all their rainbow colored glory. I was not at all being sarcastic, beastiality is a sexual preference that involves no one but the partners - just as homosexuality. If you were really so all about "being inclusive" you would be able to look past any offence you might have felt - after all this is exactly what you are demanding of others. Why not also set up a forum for multiple partner households and one for onanists and one for pedophiles...

Your sexuality is your business, it has no place here.

aysiu
December 11th, 2005, 02:58 AM
I don't think Ubuntu Women was started because women in general are oppressed in the world (you could make a good case that they are, but I think it's irrelevant).

The point is really that women are severely underrepresented in both the computing and Linux worlds, and that people who are interested in the Ubuntu Women project (whatever form that may take) want to rectify that underrepresentation.

Women in general: roughly 50% of the world's population
Women in Ubuntu: roughly 4 % of the population

Can anyone make the case that gays and lesbians are underrepresented in Linux or Ubuntu? If so, maybe that might be a legitimate project.

TeeAhr1
December 11th, 2005, 03:07 AM
I am not debating this with you, poptones. You should know that I've reported that last one as a bad post.

THIS SECTION IS NOT MODERATED EXCEPT FOR THE FOLLOWING SITUATIONS:
...2. Personal attacks towards individuals and groups.
To paraphrase your own post, your bigotry is your own business, but it is not welcome here.

The rest of this thread has been really interesting stuff. I think a couple of you are full of it, but I'm sure y'all might feel the same way about me (especially after my two-page post back there). That's good; disagreement is good.

TeeAhr1
December 11th, 2005, 03:09 AM
Can anyone make the case that gays and lesbians are underrepresented in Linux or Ubuntu? If so, maybe that might be a legitimate project.
Good question, and I don't know. I guess a "sexuality survey" in Community Chat might be a good place to start. Unless someone's got a better (read: more reliably scientific) method in mind, I'd be glad to post it.

Stormy Eyes
December 11th, 2005, 03:18 AM
The point is really that women are severely underrepresented in both the computing and Linux worlds, and that people who are interested in the Ubuntu Women project (whatever form that may take) want to rectify that underrepresentation.

I have a little trouble with such statements as yours. Why not let individuals do as they will, without concern for whether or not they fill some arbitrary quota?

aysiu
December 11th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Good question, and I don't know. I guess a "sexuality survey" in Community Chat might be a good place to start. Unless someone's got a better (read: more reliably scientific) method in mind, I'd be glad to post it. I don't know how accurate that survey would be. While heterosexuals may gladly come forward and pronounce themselves het, gays may not (even behind a username) want to proclaim themselves gay in a survey.

I'm not saying anyone would lie, necessarily--they may just not bother answering the poll.

aysiu
December 11th, 2005, 03:21 AM
I have a little trouble with such statements as yours. Why not let individuals do as they will, without concern for whether or not they fill some arbitrary quota? I'm not trying to twist anyone's arm to join Linux to meet a quota. Usually when a demographic group is underrepresented, there are reasons that group is underrepresented.

Think of it more as removing obstacles to Linux migration rather than forcing women into Linux.

If I feel a sharp pain in my arm but nowhere else in my body, I'm not going to treat my arm the same way I treat the rest of my body because clearly something (a disease or condition) is preventing my arm from acting normally. I'm going to pay special attention to getting rid of that disease or condition so that my arm can join the rest of my body as normally functioning.

There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women. Getting rid of those some things is the point of Ubuntu Women.

TeeAhr1
December 11th, 2005, 03:42 AM
I don't know how accurate that survey would be. While heterosexuals may gladly come forward and pronounce themselves het, gays may not (even behind a username) want to proclaim themselves gay in a survey.

I'm not saying anyone would lie, necessarily--they may just not bother answering the poll.
Yeah, I agree, as I tried to make clear with the unless anyone's got a better idea part, I just don't know of any better way to do it. I'm Googling in another tab right now trying to find some sort of comprehensive demographic survey of Linux users, so far to no avail. I'll update if I come up with anything...

poofyhairguy
December 11th, 2005, 06:32 AM
There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women.

All the women in my life use a lot of Linux. My sister has a Linux cell phone, loves her TiVo that runs on Linux and needs her wireless router that uses Linux for her Powerbook.

Not to criticize.

Stormy Eyes
December 11th, 2005, 08:39 AM
There's something (or a bunch of things) impeding Linux adoption for women. Getting rid of those some things is the point of Ubuntu Women.

That "something" might be that they just can't be bothered. Lots of men can't be bothered to knit, yet nobody claims that men are underrepresented in the knitting community.

Leif
December 11th, 2005, 12:05 PM
That "something" might be that they just can't be bothered. Lots of men can't be bothered to knit, yet nobody claims that men are underrepresented in the knitting community.

men can't be "bothered" to knit in most instances because they would never try it since it's an "unmanly" thing to do (me, I find it relaxing). if women can't be "bothered" to at least try linux, it might have something to do with it being perceived as a "boy's toy".

in my martial arts club (not "mine" of course, just a student), we've made a special effort to target women during our recruitment drives at events such as freshers fayre the last couple of years. this is because generally women tend to see martial arts as a guys' thing, but once we've explained that they don't need to be super-strong to do our style, and that there are other women doing it who enjoy it we get quite a few recruits.

women success stories from our club are very enthusiastic to come and speak at such events to convince people that you don't become some kind of psychotic weirdo when you do martial arts, and that it's fun and a unisex thing to do. we approach more women than men, because men are more likely to approach us anyway.

the result is that our club has moved from a 10:1 ratio to more of a 6:4. still work in progress, but it has done a lot of good already. my technique has improved from having a wider range of body types to train with, and off the mat, it's a more civil environment.

anyway, sorry for the long post, but I'm a believer in positive reinforcement or whatever you want to call it, since I've seen it work, and since I also believe that having a more balanced community is a good thing that must be actively worked towards.

poptones
December 12th, 2005, 06:40 AM
OK then.. what do we do as a community to get more men into knitting?

Teh Ethan
December 20th, 2005, 10:44 AM
I understand the motivation for people to want this kind of an environment available to them, and usually, I'd encourage it.

But this isn't the kind of place where your sex doesn't have to matter. You can't see the people you're talking to. You don't know anything that they don't tell you.

Why should we have a special forum for women? Call me crazy, but "I'm a woman, so I'm scared to be a part of the Ubuntu community" - which may or may not be legitimate for some people - is pretty much invalidated in an anonymous situation like the Ubuntu forum.

I'm all for equality, and I don't judge based on anything but character. Being somewhat of a minority myself, I can see why that's so important. But when we're all anonymous, nobody can be prejudiced against you unless you tell them that you're a kind of person they don't like.

So doesn't a women's forum, by nature, have to be seperatist? Isn't that what we're trying to avoid here?

Please correct me if I'm wrong. These are just my opinions and they may be based on things that for some reason aren't entirely accurate.

Ethan

Leif
December 20th, 2005, 11:58 AM
not to be short with you, but your points (and others) have been discussed at some length before :
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=74884

this thread needed to be moved to the backyard as it contained some unpleasantness, but also a lot of good discussion disappeared with it too.

joshuapurcell
December 20th, 2005, 05:20 PM
I think it's a little funny that if Ubuntu (and Linux in general) is for all people we would still feel the need to separate the forums into places based on things such as gender or sex preference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for having certain areas of the forums designated as a place where people of certain upbringing, background, nationality, gender, sexual preference, etc. can call their corner. But as soon as you open that door up you will will start getting a flood of equally valid requests to open up a new forum dedicated to someone else's religion, hobby, favorite color, caste system status, monetary worth, etc.

Go ahead and keep this forum open specifically for women, but I had better see a forum dedicated to gays and lesbians open up as well because there really is no difference as far as an operating system and forum goes, and this goes for any other request that comes up in this or other threads. I somehow think that a gay forum would never take off in this community though, and I'm not sure that it needs to any more than some other arbitrary label people like to wear.

How does hanging unneeded labels on people really help Ubuntu? How will it change a person's experience while using Ubuntu or being on this forum? I can't imagine that it would change it very much at all. One things for sure, it will cause a segregation of the community while drawing unneeded remarks from the more immature folks in the community.


having an lgbt forum would make this about sexuality and not gender - that was ther point I was trying to make. Sorry it escaped you. Having a segregated women's forum may or may not be a good thing, but having a forum for people of a specific sexual orientation in a place where the topic is supposed to be software and computers seems to me about as logical as having a forum here about dentistry.I have to say that having a gay forum would not be bringing sexuality into this forum any more than having a women's forum does for some people. At the same time, why even bring the gender label up by creating a forum for it if the topic for this and all other forums "is supposed to be software and computers"? How does gender help or hinder in that discusion? None at all I'm afraid, and neither would a forum for lesbian and gay people.

Leif
December 20th, 2005, 05:35 PM
But as soon as you open that door up you will will start getting a flood of equally valid requests to open up a new forum dedicated to someone else's religion, hobby, favorite color, caste system status, monetary worth, etc.

yes yes, let's just trivialize gender discrimination in techie communities by putting it on equal status as discrimination based on "hobby and favourite colour". as for the others (religion, caste status), if you belong to a religion or caste that you feel is discriminated against in the community, please, feel free to have your voice heard.



Go ahead and keep this forum open specifically for women, but I had better see a forum dedicated to gays and lesbians open up as well because there really is no difference as far as an operating system and forum goes, and this goes for any other request that comes up in this or other threads. I somehow think that a gay forum would never take off in this community though, and I'm not sure that it needs to any more than some other arbitrary label people like to wear.

you had better see it ? then form it yourself. noone's stopping you. if enough people want it, it will happen, and in that case I'm sure it would be a valuable addition to the community



How does hanging unneeded labels on people really help Ubuntu? How will it change a person's experience while using Ubuntu or being on this forum? I can't imagine that it would change it very much at all. One things for sure, it will cause a segregation of the community while drawing unneeded remarks from the more immature folks in the community.

what label ? what segregation ? this is not where women are supposed to be confined. it's a forum to promote wider participation of women in the community.

joshuapurcell
December 20th, 2005, 06:32 PM
yes yes, let's just trivialize gender discrimination in techie communities by putting it on equal status as discrimination based on "hobby and favourite colour". as for the others (religion, caste status), if you belong to a religion or caste that you feel is discriminated against in the community, please, feel free to have your voice heard.Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once? Isn't that one of the good things about the Internet? Is it not better to be inclusive to everyone equally? Creating forums centered around various labels begins to make this equal inclusion much harder to do.
you had better see it ? then form it yourself. noone's stopping you. if enough people want it, it will happen, and in that case I'm sure it would be a valuable addition to the communityI was saying that I'm not for having separate forums for things such as this unless there are separate forums for other labels as well. Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.
what label ? what segregation ? this is not where women are supposed to be confined. it's a forum to promote wider participation of women in the community.I'm not trying to be rude, but this last portion of your thread sounds very similar to the argument that southern American politicians used to defend the Jim Crow laws of the South years ago. I'm well aware that this forum is not trying to hide any thing such as discrimination of women, but while trying to go in the opposite direction of discrimination this forum has the potential to draw unneeded attention to a label in a way that has no place in this or any other community.

If anyone is interested, take some time to read what Morgan Freeman has said about a similar attempt at relegating the history of black people in America to one month of recognition (when it is really inseperable from the rest of American history):
Morgan Freeman Defies Labels (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/14/60minutes/main1127684.shtml)

I know that some here don't think creating a forum specifically for women would be separating women from the rest of the community, but what other possible outcome will it have? And if this forum isn't for drawing unneeded attention to the gender of those who participate in this forum, then why call is 'Ubuntu for Women' at all?

aysiu
December 20th, 2005, 06:51 PM
Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.

I'm not trying to be rude, but this last portion of your thread sounds very similar to the argument that southern American politicians used to defend the Jim Crow laws of the South years ago. I'm well aware that this forum is not trying to hide any thing such as discrimination of women, but while trying to go in the opposite direction of discrimination this forum has the potential to draw unneeded attention to a label in a way that has no place in this or any other community. I don't think the other requests would be "equally valid" or that the "label" "has no place in this... community."

Women in Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically are severely underrepresented. They make up 50% of the general population (some say 51%), yet they make up only 4% of the users of these forums. You'd be hardpressed to make a case that other groups for whom the floodgates would be opened are underrepresented by that large a margin.

Clearly there is a problem, and ignoring it does not make it go away. As a person of color, I hate it when people say (especially in America) that they "don't see race." What that really means is they don't see race problems, and they hope by treating everyone "equally" that race problems will just go away because they ignore them.

Same for gender. Just because you choose not to see that women are underrepresented in the computing world, it doesn't mean they aren't. For more on this phenomenon, read Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262632691/qid=1135100981/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/103-8069050-2500662?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). You could also try reading this entire thread, as your views have already been argued here many times, as have the rebuttals.

Leif
December 20th, 2005, 07:03 PM
Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once? Isn't that one of the good things about the Internet? Is it not better to be inclusive to everyone equally? Creating forums centered around various labels begins to make this equal inclusion much harder to do.

that's great. some people also care about being able to express the things that they feel identify them online as well. you want to be anonymous, good for you, but should we not try and help those who want to be openly, heaven forbid, female ?



I was saying that I'm not for having separate forums for things such as this unless there are separate forums for other labels as well. Because this could open up a flood of equally valid requests for various forums centered around labels other than 'Linux user', I think it would be wise to reconsider opening that door at all.

I don't agree with this "could" logic. You assume that because there's a women's forum someone will want to create a tibetan-buddhist forum. All these other forums you envision happening require a certain number of people to make them happen, and a motivation. This is a bridge to be crossed once we get there. Otherwise we'll stay overawed with the possibilities, discuss things ad infinitum and perhaps never start anything. At least this way we can discuss things ad infinitum and get some good initiatives for women in ubuntu going :)

QUOTE=joshuapurcell]
I know that some here don't think creating a forum specifically for women would be separating women from the rest of the community, but what other possible outcome will it have? And if this forum isn't for drawing unneeded attention to the gender of those who participate in this forum, then why call is 'Ubuntu for Women' at all?[/QUOTE]

I agree that the forum could use a better name. But I repeat that this is not a place to segregate women. It's a place to organize initiatives to make ubuntu a more welcoming place for women.

What Morgan Freeman says is very interesting, and I see his point. Yes, if we could all start seeing eachother as just human, then inequalities would also disappear. But, on the flip side, I don't think people will see eachother as equals until they are, in fact, equals in social status and opportunity. It is only through promoting equality in representation that the respect necessary for everyone can be instilled.

Finally, though, I'd like to point out that by allowing the community chat section, and allowing conversations about non-linux topics at all, these forums encourage the generation of an organic community. I think this is an interesting experiment. In this community, people must be allowed their voice, and to form their own sub-projects if they want to. Unless we shut down the community aspect here, and make it a strictly support forum, any project with enough people behind it deserves its space, and noone has the right to deny them this freedom.

joshuapurcell
December 20th, 2005, 07:06 PM
I don't think the other requests would be "equally valid" or that the "label" "has no place in this... community."

Women in Linux in general and Ubuntu specifically are severely underrepresented. They make up 50% of the general population (some say 51%), yet they make up only 4% of the users of these forums. You'd be hardpressed to make a case that other groups for whom the floodgates would be opened are underrepresented by that large a margin.

Clearly there is a problem, and ignoring it does not make it go away. As a person of color, I hate it when people say (especially in America) that they "don't see race." What that really means is they don't see race problems, and they hope by treating everyone "equally" that race problems will just go away because they ignore them.

Same for gender. Just because you choose not to see that women are underrepresented in the computing world, it doesn't mean they aren't. For more on this phenomenon, read Unlocking the Clubhouse: Women in Computing (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0262632691/qid=1135100981/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i3_xgl14/103-8069050-2500662?n=507846&s=books&v=glance). You could also try reading this entire thread, as your views have already been argued here many times, as have the rebuttals.This is where I'm getting at: How and why does this gender label meet some standard that others aren't meeting? You have said that other minorities aren't discriminated as much as women, but how would you really know when talking about things such as race, religion, or sexual preference? If you have studies to show this is how the forum community is made up, then I'll not bring it up again. The point is that you can't know about some groups since it isn't an issue that is discussed here, and it may not need to be. Also, the arguments I've given are still valid and up for debate even after I've read the entire thread. These arguments are worth repeating if they aren't understood the first time.

Leif
December 20th, 2005, 07:08 PM
This is where I'm getting at: How and why does this gender label meet some standard that others aren't meeting? You have said that other minorities aren't discriminated as much as women, but how would you really know when talking about things such as race, religion, or sexual preference?

Because it's staring us in the face ? Because enough of us know about it ? I have enough friends who've suffered through this to make me a supporter of this forum. If enough people who are being discriminated against in other ways get together and want to put something together, I will support this as well.

aysiu
December 20th, 2005, 07:25 PM
I've linked to an entire book written on the subject of women facing challenges in the computing world.

If you can find any indication that gays or buddhists or any other group is severely underrepresented / discriminated against in Linux or computing in general and you have a passion for making them feel more comfortable, then start working on getting that forum together. No one's stopping you.

TeeAhr1
December 20th, 2005, 10:16 PM
Semi-related: Please see my new thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=106412).

DevilsAdvocate
December 22nd, 2005, 10:46 PM
The point of a "forum for women" would be to bring more women into Linux? right.

Do you think a "forum for women" will actually draw women towards linux, even if they were on the edge? And the women it does draw, what will be the position of this forum relative to the rest of the community in a year or two? It's sowing dischord.

I think a better way to attract women to Linux would be to add features to it that would be specifically a draw to women. For example, think of how advertiser's in any other field appeal to women? I won't cite examples to avoid total flaming.

Leif
December 22nd, 2005, 11:45 PM
Do you think a "forum for women" will actually draw women towards linux, even if they were on the edge? And the women it does draw, what will be the position of this forum relative to the rest of the community in a year or two?

So you're saying since it might not work out perfectly, why bother trying ? Why don't we try and see instead.


It's sowing dischord.

This will settle down eventually. Ubuntu is not the only linux community with a women's initiative, and I'd be surprised if they didn't go through this kind of reaction as well. And even if it doesn't settle down, it's not like controversy is new to the linux community.



I think a better way to attract women to Linux would be to add features to it that would be specifically a draw to women. For example, think of how advertiser's in any other field appeal to women? I won't cite examples to avoid total flaming.

I don't know what features you're talking about, this still doesn't mean this forum should go away. Assuming your suggested features are valuable, why can't we use both ?

matthew
December 22nd, 2005, 11:50 PM
The point of a "forum for women" would be to bring more women into Linux? right.No.

You are talking in marketing terms. I am thinking in community terms. Marketing tries to recruit. Community tries to welcome and nurture.

As far as I am concerned marketing Linux is a waste of time...why try to convert people? Let people know it exists...okay.

However, when someone is interested I want them to know they are also welcome, especially those who are so obviously underepresented as women. That's the point of the forum...although it has admittedly been hijacked by a bunch of men arguing over a stupid non-issue. (i.e. if you think this forum is a waste/useless/wrong then just don't participate.)

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 12:56 AM
So you're saying since it might not work out perfectly, why bother trying ? Why don't we try and see instead.




This will settle down eventually. Ubuntu is not the only linux community with a women's initiative, and I'd be surprised if they didn't go through this kind of reaction as well. And even if it doesn't settle down, it's not like controversy is new to the linux community.



I don't know what features you're talking about, this still doesn't mean this forum should go away. Assuming your suggested features are valuable, why can't we use both ?

I'm saying the risks could outweigh the benefits and I believe both are possible. But, we could try and see certainly.

You could use both but I am suggeting that one would have a positive effect and the other negative.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 12:59 AM
No.

You are talking in marketing terms. I am thinking in community terms. Marketing tries to recruit. Community tries to welcome and nurture.

As far as I am concerned marketing Linux is a waste of time...why try to convert people? Let people know it exists...okay.

However, when someone is interested I want them to know they are also welcome, especially those who are so obviously underepresented as women. That's the point of the forum...although it has admittedly been hijacked by a bunch of men arguing over a stupid non-issue. (i.e. if you think this forum is a waste/useless/wrong then just don't participate.)

Mathew I believe you are not talking in marketing terms, but I believe marketing is part of the idea behind a "forum for women." I ask you this? Why would a forum for women be necessary if it's simply to make them feel welcomed and such? Aren't the standard forums friendly, welcome, and unbiased (excluding MS sentiment)?

Leif
December 23rd, 2005, 01:09 AM
Mathew I believe you are not talking in marketing terms, but I believe marketing is part of the idea behind a "forum for women." I ask you this? Why would a forum for women be necessary if it's simply to make them feel welcomed and such? Aren't the standard forums friendly, welcome, and unbiased (excluding MS sentiment)?

no, not always. just yesterday someone was asking to be treated like a blonde woman to illustrate how stupid he is with regards to linux. and this forum is meant to foster a better environment for women in linux in general, regardless of the forums themselves.

DevilsAdvocate
December 23rd, 2005, 06:35 AM
So we should we have a forum specifically for blonde women too?

isotonic
June 1st, 2006, 09:04 PM
I kind gave up reading the arguments after the first page here. All I have to say is I don't see why all the fuss really in having a women's group, or any other special interest group (SIG) within the broader community. That's the whole point of a SIG and you shouldn't have to justify it to others if they choose not to participate.

Get over yourselves, people.

dvarsam
June 21st, 2006, 02:51 PM
Hello!


What's the point... of having a separate forum for women?

Cause it sounds good!:D

We could even call it:


Women's Panties - No strings attached!

:mrgreen:

K.Mandla
June 21st, 2006, 06:43 PM
... What's the point... of having a separate forum for women?
What's the harm?

Stormy Eyes
June 21st, 2006, 11:18 PM
Can I not have my voice heard without hanging labels on myself or others for once?

I agree. This is the f---ing internet. For all you know, I could be a cat. Does it really matter if I'm a cat or a human being? Not really. Does it matter if I'm male or female, or whether I'm straight, bisexual, or gay? Not really. Does it really matter where I was born or where I live? Not really. Does it really matter if I worship one god, many gods, or no gods at all? Not really.

Perhaps I'm feeling a bit idealistic today, but this whole "Oh, we don't have enough of group X" makes me want to commit grab my sledgehammer and start busting heads. Whatever happened to extending a welcoming hand to anybody who knows his **** or is willing to make an effort and learn? Patience and willingness to learn isn't a trait exclusive to men, or to women, or to Americans, or to Europeans. They're traits that anybody can have, and the ones who are patient and willing to learn are the ones we should be courting -- no matter what their gender, sexual preference, ethnicity, religion, or political persuasion.

yaaarrrgg
June 22nd, 2006, 02:28 AM
I think there are at least two issues here, and many valid points that support each side.

For one, there is the moral issue of putting people into groups (like male/female). This fundamentally contradicts the ideals of ubuntu...that all people should be seen without predudice and differentiation.

Also there is the practical issue. As long as women prefer windows to linux, linux is never going to be compete with windows in any serious way as a desktop OS. The female demographic is as large as the male demographic, and will have a say on what gets installed on family computers. In this case, where both people can use windows, but only one person can use linux, linux makes no sense to use. If one adheres perfectly to the ideals of ubuntu then linux will suffer.

I think the best route is a compromise between ideals, and practical issues. Of course it also means we lose the purity of strict ubuntu fundamentalism. :)

BWF89
June 22nd, 2006, 03:03 AM
Unless you have a name thats like "hotchick20234" or "princess23023" whos gonna know your a girl?

Stormy Eyes
June 22nd, 2006, 04:59 AM
and will have a say on what gets installed on family computers.

Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run. Ladies, if you want to run Windows, buy your own computers. Don't move into a man's house and expect him to change his OS for your sake; we already give you our closets and put up with questions like "Does this skirt make me look fat?"

kassetra
June 22nd, 2006, 05:20 AM
Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run. Ladies, if you want to run Windows, buy your own computers. Don't move into a man's house and expect him to change his OS for your sake; we already give you our closets and put up with questions like "Does this skirt make me look fat?"
Of course... the same can be said for all the guys that move into the woman's apartment - because hers is always clean - don't touch her computer and don't expect her to change whatever it is that she runs - get your own computer and stop using her superior hardware. :p It's bad enough that we can't sign on to a game server with our usual screen names without getting, "DUDE! You're a CHICK?! WILL YOU MARRY ME?!" (or worse.)

*snicker*

KiwiNZ
June 22nd, 2006, 05:24 AM
The answer is mutual respect . This applies not only in marriage but in all walks of life.

Be aware of others needs as well as your own. Give, take and compromise.
Seek always a solution that fits all.

yaaarrrgg
June 22nd, 2006, 05:55 AM
Not if the men get backbones and insist on their right to decide what OS the computer they paid for will run.

Unfortunately, most guys run Windows too. So a brute force tactic will not really help linux that much either.

How a product is "sold" is almost more important than the product itself. I think Microsoft understands this, but linux folks tend to focus only on technical merits.

Do you think AOL would have been as popular if it didn't specifically target women? Or Tai Bo? Or SUV's (which are just macho mini vans). Women are a key component to winning the desktop (and possibly the only realistic chance linux has). You can't ignore this demographic and expect success.

BWF89
June 22nd, 2006, 01:20 PM
@yaaarrrgg: Linux can't very well target women, or regular non-techie people in general until we get better hardware detection (Linux didn't recognise my last 2 Canon printers) and get the OS about as easy to use as Windows.

Stormy Eyes
June 22nd, 2006, 02:01 PM
It's bad enough that we can't sign on to a game server with our usual screen names without getting, "DUDE! You're a CHICK?! WILL YOU MARRY ME?!" (or worse.)

I can't do that either, and I'm not a "chick".

yaaarrrgg
June 22nd, 2006, 02:49 PM
@yaaarrrgg: Linux can't very well target women, or regular non-techie people in general until we get better hardware detection (Linux didn't recognise my last 2 Canon printers) and get the OS about as easy to use as Windows.

True, but you are focusing only on the technical aspects of the problem.

For example, Mac OS has much worse hardware support, and effectively limits what you can use. Although Mac understands good marketing better than Microsoft (the recent macs ads are great). No one really thinks much about Macs restricting hardware, because the ads focus on creativity and freedom.

Also, Ubuntu is already user friendly enough for women to use ... My wife loves it, and the other day, her mom was over and used it with no questions. I was pleasantly shocked.

A while back I used to work in marketing (editing TV ads). It might be an exageration, but I would say the quality of a product has nothing to do with the commercial success (look at pop music). There's the product, and the marketing. Each is important.

But the issue with this debate is that many times we only look at a one-dimensional slice of a multi-dimensional problem. Reminds me of the parable of the elephant, in Buddhism. I'm not necessarily disagreeing with your points, just noting that the technical problems are only part of the picture. Good marketing can solve some of the the worst techincal problems, and even make them look like added features.

A forum for women would be a great way to get feedback on what women want (in terms of apps, features, games, etc). If you can get the women, the guys will follow.

EdThaSlayer
June 22nd, 2006, 08:10 PM
gender equality. We should treat them the same way they treat us :)

aysiu
June 24th, 2006, 06:31 PM
If you found out that your arm was getting only 4% of the nutrients that the rest of your body was getting, would you consider it favoritism or "reverse discrimination" to get that arm examined but not your whole body?

Wouldn't you think that something's wrong and that your arm should get special attention, at least until you can make sure it gets the proper nutrients the rest of your body's been getting?

Women make up at least 50% of the world population, but if this forum is any indication of how they are in Linux, they make up around 5% of the Linux-using population at best.

Clearly, there's something wrong that needs to be addressed.

I don't see cat users or gay users (or whatever other ridiculous comparisons people want to make) as being in any way underrepresented in Linux use. Sorry, but you can joke about it all you want--women aren't made to feel comfortable with Linux, and that's a real problem. Some women (the 5% already here) don't care and will just go ahead and use it anyway. Good for them. That doesn't mean there's no problem.

Read more here:
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

thunderduck3141
June 24th, 2006, 08:34 PM
i dont see any reason for there not to be women using linux, the more the merrier i always say
but special attention should not be given to them
it is like scholorships for just minorities, dicrimanation that is looked down appon
but by all means encourage women to get into linux, my gf had never even heard of it before, now she uses ubuntu on her (shudders) mac (oooo how i dispise macs, but they fight micrososft, so the enemy of my enemy)

aysiu
June 24th, 2006, 08:36 PM
And I suppose if the steering in your car is misaligned, you'd rather just keep driving it that way so as not to be discriminatory against any other part of your car... instead of just fixing the alignment.

After all, why should the left side of your car receive special treatment?

dronepower
June 24th, 2006, 09:42 PM
5% using linux is very little indeed.
Here at home I make my Ubuntu girlfriend proof.

She only needs to click on the firefox and evolution icon and she is happy with that.

melissawm
July 11th, 2006, 04:02 PM
Just my 2 cents...

Regarding the utility of this forum: most of you must live in the US, or Europe, right? So you know, women go to school, they go to the university, they have virtually the same opportunities men have, right?

Have you seen a thread here about brazilian ubuntu (women) users? Well, in Brazil, things are not as pretty: that does include men as well as women. But the culture is still very different, and it does discriminate against women when we think about computers, science and math. I know - I'm a mathematician (the only girl in the class), a linux user and IT'S NOT EASY. Many things are involved, but let's stay in focus.

One of the objectives with the forums and ubuntu itself is to make linux popular, right? Show the people it can be used by anyone. Well, in Brazil, women are already scared of computers - not because they are stupid, but because they were never shown how it works, or because they always heard it was "not for women", which is the same thing that happens in science and math. Now, do i think this is exclusively a women's problem? NO. But is it worse with women? Absolutely!!! And I do think we could think of alternatives and projects to make women more familiar with linux.

Heck, if you go to a LUG - there are only guys most of the time!! And they DO look down on you most of the time for being a girl, that is a fact. So I would just like to say that, maybe this forum is not useful for you guys, but I do think it could be useful for many things - including the organization of projects that could bring women to realize they would be happier with linux..

kassetra
July 11th, 2006, 05:49 PM
So I would just like to say that, maybe this forum is not useful for you guys, but I do think it could be useful for many things - including the organization of projects that could bring women to realize they would be happier with linux..

Exactly the point. :)

jenred
July 12th, 2006, 10:21 PM
Thank you kassetra and melissawm!

I've been lurking around this forum for many months to see what direction it might take -- and I think that one very positive possiblity is exploring ways women in the West...

(where we have basically the same opportunities as men, and they are usually protected by law - I know, I know but when you compare our situation to many many many women in other places we are EXTREMELY fortunate. Do a little traveling outside the US, Canada, and Europe and you will see to what I refer)

...might contribute to helping women, in less gender equal societies, "even the playing field" through technology.

Men are allowed and encouraged to help!

Guess I should finally post something with regards to the above.

Jen

kadymae
July 15th, 2006, 01:47 AM
To me a forum like this a way of sending up a flare that (like comics) Linux is for EVERYONE, including women, who are welcome here.

Though it is less so on these forums than some others I have perused, there is a certain "boys club" mentality to computers, and more often than not, when a woman makes a (valid) unpopular point, she's likely to be attacked with a gender based ad-hominem attack.

---

And, as an aside, why not a GLBunTu board?

I mean, I don't think GLBT linux users face quite the same issues of "othering" and "no girls in the clubhouse" that many women face in computer and gaming forums, but hey, I'm willing to be educated, and if it's another way to promote the ideas and ideals behind Ubuntu, I don't see anything wrong with asking for a forum to be set up.

kadymae
July 15th, 2006, 01:59 AM
No one can find out anything about you on the internet unless you tell them ;)

I know you meant this well, your arguement boils down to "if women just take gender neutral names, most people in tech forums will assume they're men and all will be well."

I. Don't. Think. So.

It's the equvalent of *"passing".

There's nothing wrong with who I am. There's nothing wrong with being a woman.

I want to travel in circles where I don't have hide who I am or pretend to be something else in order to be taken seriously or be treated equally.


---
* in case you don't know what passing is --

Passing refers to the ability of a person to be regarded as a member of a particular group other than his or her own, such as a different race, ethnicity, class, sex, or disability status, generally with the purpose of gaining social acceptance. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passing)

(Emphasis mine)

aysiu
July 15th, 2006, 02:02 AM
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

monkieie
July 18th, 2006, 03:53 PM
I can't just read through all of this *emotion* and not give my two penneth-worth...

Being a European I can't help but get the impression that the US tends to over-egg the pudding as far as equality is concerned. Equality is good and right and certainly belongs in our modern society but do we have to segregate certain classes to "equalize" them? As was previously mentioned here, the forum as a whole is open to anyone who feels free and I honestly haven't been aware that it is necessary to have a seperate part for girls :rolleyes:

HAVING SAID THAT though - feel free ladies. I don't know what irritates people about this whole issue. After all, nobody forces anybody into looking into this area. Okay, I personally may not find it necessary but that is, after all, only my personal opinion. Anything which may encourage more girls into computing - especially linux ;) can only be a good thing.

Just for the record; my experience shows that of the girls who DO get interested in computing, quite often can indeed kick our proverbial bottoms.

Many a time in CS have I been humiliated by the female species ](*,)

nursegirl
July 18th, 2006, 06:14 PM
I'm surprised that we've reached 9 pages without anyone talking about the general value of diversity.

An example: I'm a 5'2" woman. If I were to design a car by myself or with other short women, we wouldn't spend much time thinking about things like adjustable headrests, the height of the roof of the car, how far back the seats can slide, etc. Not because I don't like tall people, but because I don't really understand what it's like to be tall.

If I were to invite my 6'4" friend to design the car with me, suddenly we'd be making a car that would be comfortable for many, many more people. But, he's *very* skinny, and I'm about average, so we would probably never design a car with care towards the needs of larger people.

None of this is even necessarily about prejudice, or bigotry, just the normal inability that we have to live outside our skins enough to *really* get other people's needs.

So, if a larger person were to sit in a car that I've developed, they will feel a little uncomfortable. Perhaps physically, or perhaps everything might physically fit, but feel slightly "off". The shifting column might be slightly too close or too far, the headrest might be mildly uncomfortable. What happens over time is that there's this build-up of psychic distress. This vague sense that "this is not for me."

As a woman involved with computers, I'll often find myself experiencing a mild psychic discomfort about different forums, mailing lists and IRC channels. It's hard to pin down why, but something doesn't fit me.

Now, Ubuntu's been the best tech community I've ever been in, but there's always room for growth. The more we actively encourage women to be involved, the less likely women are to experience the discomfort that comes from being involved in communities and using tech products that were built "by men for men."

Leif
July 18th, 2006, 11:16 PM
EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

They are not. This subforum was created, and stays in existence, due to demand. People want it, there is demonstrable inequality in representation, fair reason to believe there should be action to balance it, and there's no reason against it, and that's all there is to it. Quite a few people have posted in this thread, proving that the demand is there.

As for gay, lesbian, transsexual etc. forums, if there is a demand for them, I for one will heartily endorse their creation. Having a women's forum doesn't preclude opening other forums.

I know I've said more or less the same thing on other threads in this forum, and I'm sorry for the repetition. It's just that the same questions seem to keep popping up.

Also, let's not pick on the suse people. I know we're all jealous of that chameleon mascot :)

aysiu
July 18th, 2006, 11:27 PM
I don't see how "afro(whatever)-people," GLBT, physically handicapped people, etc. are in any way as underrepresented as women are in Ubuntu.

Women make up over 50% of the general population and only 4% of the Ubuntu population. That seems like a pretty serious issue to me.

monkieie
July 19th, 2006, 07:52 AM
Women make up over 50% of the general population and only 4% of the Ubuntu population. That seems like a pretty serious issue to me.

Yes but it's hardly any wonder really. If you consider how many women are intereseted in computers / IT at all, it's only a small minority. Of those users of course you then have to divide them up between Windows, Linux, MAC etc users. I for one would welcome it if my girlfriend would be more intereseted in computing but try as I can, it just isn't her thing at all (she's more into art).

aysiu
July 19th, 2006, 07:57 AM
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x106.html

deanjm1963
July 19th, 2006, 08:08 AM
I think it's an awesome idea for a Ubuntu Womens forum. Women are so underestimated in the IT field, and especially in the opensource area, it gives those who wish to participate in the forum a congenial environment to put forward ideas, etc.

Has anyone taken a look at the latest Gentoo Weekly Newsletter?

If there isn't a good enough reason for a Womens Forum here, this is certainly it.

Just scroll down and check out some of their main players

The Gentoo Boyz (http://www.gentoo.org/news/en/gwn/20060717-newsletter.xml)

:)

monkieie
July 20th, 2006, 05:10 PM
http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x106.html

There are some good points in there but in the case of my partner I believe that there are two root causes:

She doesn't like technical applications
She is too lazy to learn.

She never has liked any technical issues but was always more inclined towards the arts and as far as laziness is concerned I am not being derogatory but she simply spends her free-time in other ways. I believe that even if she were a man, she wouldn't be into computers either.

Where I do agree with the link however is that many women simply lack a healthy portion of self-confidence. They should learn to be a bit more pushy and a tiny-bit self-centered...in a healthy way of course :mrgreen:

webman
July 21st, 2006, 01:12 AM
EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

I agree. it would be nice to have them join, however I don't agree they (women) need their own format ie. women ubuntu. We need to think of people as computer users that use Ubuntu. No special favor or attention. Ithink the only seperation that should be present is level of expertise.

_simon_
July 21st, 2006, 11:36 AM
The more we actively encourage women to be involved, the less likely women are to experience the discomfort that comes from being involved in communities and using tech products that were built "by men for men."

I'm trying to get my head around this paragraph!

I think this "discomfort" is down to each individual person, my other half is involved in many different types of community. She is registered on here but isn't techie at all and so does not participate. It's not because she doesn't feel comfortable, simply that she doesn't care for the subjects catered for on here.

What I am trying to say, all be it very badly is that you cannot encourage people to join in that have no interest in joining in. Compared to men, women aren't as techie hence why there are so few females on the forums compared to men.

My other half knows there is an "Ubuntu Women" section but still has no inclination to take part even though she uses Ubuntu.

People will use what they want, people will take part in what they want.

You could hold a huge PR campaing tomorrow - TV, Radio, Bill Boards, Womens magazines! etc and I'm pretty sure it would have no impact on the current size of the "female ubuntu community".

I think the idea was worth trying out but has it been a success?

One forum that I administrate has a female community of about 95%. We trialled a technology section and kept it updated with various security alerts etc.... I have since removed it as it simply was not a subject any of the female members were interested in. So what if there was a new Windows vulnerability? I wrote a post trying to win over a few users to linux. One woman showed interest but alas her tech knowledge was next to non existant and without physically spending lots of time with her I could not even help her try linux.

You have to be technology inclined in order to be on any type of tech forum. Encouragment won't help...

Sorry - think I rambled a lot there!

monkieie
July 21st, 2006, 12:19 PM
You have to be technology inclined in order to be on any type of tech forum. Encouragment won't help...

Sorry - think I rambled a lot there!

don't be sorry Simon - I agree wholeheartedly with you. That is the whole point - if you're not into these things then you're not into them. No two ways about it.

nursegirl
July 25th, 2006, 07:35 PM
That is the whole point - if you're not into these things then you're not into them. No two ways about it.

I would agree with you to some degree, except the FLOSSPOLS Women in Free Software Report (http://flosspols.org/deliverables/D16HTML/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integrated_Report_of_Findings.htm) (or see the presentation with summary - pdf alert) (http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=64995) shows that in proprietary software, 28% of the developers are female, while in Free/Libre Open Source Software, only 1.5% of the developers are female. I think that it's meaningful for open source projects to ask why are females more interested/willing/comfortable working on proprietary products rather than open source projects. What is it about F/LOSS projects that make even technologically skilled women less likely to step forward?

Debian Women, Ubuntu Women, Linux Chix, etc. are there to help us find the answers to those questions and support us becoming communities where technologically-inclined women feel just as welcome/comfortable/able to contribute as they do in the world of proprietary software.

nikkiana
July 26th, 2006, 04:40 AM
I would agree with you to some degree, except the FLOSSPOLS Women in Free Software Report (http://flosspols.org/deliverables/D16HTML/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integrated_Report_of_Findings.htm) (or see the presentation with summary - pdf alert) (http://lxer.com/module/newswire/ext_link.php?rid=64995) shows that in proprietary software, 28% of the developers are female, while in Free/Libre Open Source Software, only 1.5% of the developers are female. I think that it's meaningful for open source projects to ask why are females more interested/willing/comfortable working on proprietary products rather than open source projects. What is it about F/LOSS projects that make even technologically skilled women less likely to step forward?

Debian Women, Ubuntu Women, Linux Chix, etc. are there to help us find the answers to those questions and support us becoming communities where technologically-inclined women feel just as welcome/comfortable/able to contribute as they do in the world of proprietary software.

I can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming.

One of the things that I noticed while I was in school was the fact that some of the guys I knew were REALLY into programming... They wanted to spend every waking moment programming whatever their creation was... I remember time and time again feeling kinda inferior because I just simply didn't like programming as much as some of my classmates did. Sure, I did my work, passed it in and got good grades but I always did the bare minimum because I wanted nothing more to move on to doing something that I found more personally rewarding.... Like, say, knitting.

Sad to say, I probably will be more likely to end up working on a propritary project... Not because I feel more comfortable, but more because I need a job and I need to eat, and programming pays the bills. To me, it's a skill set for a job, not a passion that I want to spend every waking minute on...

While I apperciate everything all the open source programmers do, I just don't have the drive to be one of them....

monkieie
July 26th, 2006, 11:19 AM
I can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming.


good point. Isn't it common knowledge anyway that women are more "sociable" creatures than their male contemporaries? I can certainly believe that women place more value on social intercourse than men do and let's face it, to get really into programming of any kind does kind of demand a lot of time in front of the monitor.

matjaz_pirnovar
July 26th, 2006, 07:37 PM
Hey guys,

Just popped onto forum and saw this section...

Now are we talking about the gender/sex or part of Ubuntu world who have difficulties getting it?

Dividing on men and woman seem totally old fashioned to me, to be polite.

I have seen more then enough girl-friends that are as good or much better experts in computer world than several others. So please, let's drop gender division.
Well, why the percentage of women in Ubuntu is small (4%)..well, that's another issue...

I think, why would it need to be higher? When you don't force anyone into things they don't resonate with and when you drop too high expectations, small percentage wouldn't even look like a problem.
What is wrong with small percentage?

Why not staying open to everyone who likes (the spirit of) Ubuntu and things will work out fine. I think we perhaps make too big deal out of male/female participation.

To put it philosophically: When there is spirit and community is open...things should work out right.

:)

Matjaz

aysiu
July 26th, 2006, 08:23 PM
To put it philosophically: When there is spirit and community is open...things should work out right. I guess the issue is that even the people who say, "We're all just human," often do not create a community that is "open" but include sexist remarks and exclusive language in everyday conversation on the forums.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41

panickedthumb
July 26th, 2006, 08:46 PM
aysiu, how do you always seem to have a relevant link for everything? ;)

anyway, matjaz, I'd suggest reading what I've wrote about Ubuntu Women in the past. There is no separation of the sexes here. That's in fact what htis is fighting against

aysiu
July 26th, 2006, 08:50 PM
aysiu, how do you always seem to have a relevant link for everything? ;) When I don't have a relevant link... I don't post. No, seriously, though--I bookmark. When I find a good link, I have a folder specifically for Linux stuff.

matjaz_pirnovar
July 27th, 2006, 08:09 PM
anyway, matjaz, I'd suggest reading what I've wrote about Ubuntu Women in the past. There is no separation of the sexes here. That's in fact what htis is fighting against[/QUOTE]

Yep, thanks. I have gone through some of the postings.

Good topic though. Won't attend at the moment, since I feel it can drag me into it and will be diverted from other things I'm doing. Will be in touch though...

Though I think that initial title of the thread is misleading: "why do we need women?"

Who is "we"?

Ubuntu community, technical 'world', something else?

Let's be precise. Otherwise the title itself could carry sexistic flavor.

Smile.

M

nikkiana
July 28th, 2006, 12:32 AM
I guess the issue is that even the people who say, "We're all just human," often do not create a community that is "open" but include sexist remarks and exclusive language in everyday conversation on the forums.

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/x28.html#AEN41

That was an interesting read... But it did cause me to ask myself a question...

At what point are women taking what the men they talk to on tech mailing lists, messsage boards and work with say far too seriously?

If it had been me who had been the chick with a hardware problem in question and someone fellow blamed it on "female stress" I wouldn't have chalked it up to sexism... I would of thought he was teasing and making a joke... and in fact, that's what I did think was going on and was rather surprised at the offended responce as I kept reading the conversation.

I sometimes wonder if the problem doesn't lie so much in men being sexist as it does in women being too serious too much of the time.

Just a thought...

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 12:43 AM
The two aren't mutually exclusive--you can be "just teasing" and being sexist at the same time.

Sef
July 28th, 2006, 01:25 AM
can really only speak for myself, but I find I'm hesitant to contribute to any sort of open source project despite the fact that I know I'm probably quite capable of doing so because it would cut into time spent on other interests and hobbies that I enjoy more than programming.

One of the things that I noticed while I was in school was the fact that some of the guys I knew were REALLY into programming... They wanted to spend every waking moment programming whatever their creation was... I remember time and time again feeling kinda inferior because I just simply didn't like programming as much as some of my classmates did. Sure, I did my work, passed it in and got good grades but I always did the bare minimum because I wanted nothing more to move on to doing something that I found more personally rewarding.... Like, say, knitting.

This post by nikkiana points out the different ways that boys and girls are taught what is important.

Girls are taught to socialize first then accomplish.

Boys are taught to accomplish first then socialize.

Hence for girls the path is more important than the goal. For boys the goal is more important than the path.

frup
July 28th, 2006, 10:47 AM
i havent read every post here but i have 2 things i want too add...

ubuntu for women... a way to stratagise getting more women to linux? mostly men isnt it.. the automatically doubled linux users?


as far as i know current scientific thought considers women socialise more as this is the main for of grooming in human apes. as female monkeys need to group together and socialise for survival and "culture" they groom more, males often form bachelor colonies or go by themselves solo. so they dont need/learn to talk as much...

gamerchick02
July 30th, 2006, 01:00 AM
Wow. This is a really interesting thread. I started reading it last week, got away from the computer, and just finished it up.

I do have a couple things to add:

I went to a mostly male school in the Midwest (Kettering in Flint MI, for anyone who's interested). Attitudes there were very accepting of women in my degree program (mechanical engineering). I can't speak for the other degree programs, but in my interactions with students in other degree progams men and women worked together. This is not to say that there are men who don't have problems with women in their degree programs, because there are. I'm just saying that I had a good experience there.

However, I did seek out a women's group. Men weren't excluded, but women were highly encouraged to attend this group. It made me feel more welcome in the general community of Kettering students. Being in a mostly-female group helped me become more tuned to what was going on at the school. I was able to be in the mostly-female group, and then go out to my classes (which were mostly guys) and interact much better with them, because I felt more at ease.

I think that's what this women's group is trying to do. It's a place for women to feel comfortable in a male-dominated community (like my college). It may help the women involved with Ubuntu become more comfortable with the community, if they have a place to chat with other women who have similar interests.

I don't know if that's what this community was started for, but that is my two cents. :)

Amy

aysiu
July 30th, 2006, 01:44 AM
Thanks for sharing your experience, Amy. My understanding of this Ubuntu women project is the same as yours.

nikkiana
July 30th, 2006, 05:36 PM
Very well said, Amy. I agree with you 100%.

matjaz_pirnovar
July 31st, 2006, 01:54 PM
Agree with you Amy. Well put.

I believe it would contribute greatly also to Ubuntu.

PS: Maybe there could be section on Ubuntu forum, available (specifically) for women for similar purposes.
Anybody thought of that? Any ideas?

:)
Matjaz

Chemroydal Tissue
August 2nd, 2006, 04:16 AM
Just a quick question, and slightly off-topic, but are there any moderators who are women on the forums?

-Phi-
August 2nd, 2006, 04:54 PM
kassetra (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=7047) used to be a mod. Not sure who else.

- Phi

akak8ty
August 22nd, 2006, 05:38 PM
My experience with some of these guys here has been that they have their heads where the sun doesn't shine.

SO if you want a decent answer, or to know how to do something without a cynical response- ASK A WOMAN

We get the job done, we don't act like ego maniacs with inferiority complexes- and the most helpful person in the forum when I first began WAS A WOMAN.

There are chauvinistic pigs in some of these threads, so don't be offended, just come here if you want to know the answer to a question with out getting the proverbial run around because you are a woman.
Be honored that this thread has been started-
WOMEN ARE THE COMPETENT ONES. *\o/* =D> =D> =D> =D>

akak8ty
August 22nd, 2006, 05:41 PM
For the record I drink double espresso's.
Leave the beans for the men. They are full of them ;)

:-\"

aysiu
August 22nd, 2006, 05:43 PM
We get the job done, we don't act like ego maniacs with inferiority complexes Yeah, I hate it when they claim to be IT experts and can't figure out how to burn an ISO or know how to ask for help properly.

akak8ty
August 22nd, 2006, 06:32 PM
Yeah, I hate it when they claim to be IT experts and can't figure out how to burn an ISO or know how to ask for help properly.

Its difficult to ask for help when upon my first inquiry was offended by the candor of those responded- and I am not that frail.

A friend of mine and I were discussing that we really try to avoid this forum because people are too cynical.

The only reason I logged on today was to because my X server went bonkers and would not let me log in. I actually got what I needed elsewere- but had to comment on the womens thread, because its so typical for the mentality I have encountered here to separate genders.

Like I said, I got far more helpful and sincere input and a fully working version of Ubuntu outside of the forum.

I personally am not an IT expert, but it was once my job to over see a bunch of lazy men who would rather play computer games then help my support staff meet deadlines because their system was down. It was great fun to take their keys and escort them off the property.

Your retort Dr psychocat is once again null. http://www.bushtarion.com/forums/images/smiles/new_snipersmilie.gif

jperez
August 23rd, 2006, 02:59 AM
Well, I for one am happy that there is a forum just for women, and I am male. I agree with it being here since I know many women don't think the way we do. Sure, I tend to be "a guy" when it comes to certain things, but I try to think in both aspects to help out those around me, male or female and having grown up with my mother, my older sis and younger sis (yes, I am the middle child), I know things can be done differently. Like they say, a woman's touch. I like that this forum is up so that any women I recommend Ubuntu to, I can let them know about it. Keep up the great work ladies!

Jesse~

tagra123
August 23rd, 2006, 03:20 AM
EDITED:

kvidell is right, this is my point:

ubuntu for afro-(whatever)-people
ubuntu for gays | lesbians
ubuntu for transsexuals
ubuntu for physically handicapped people
ubuntu for psychologically handicapped people (don't know the correct phrase)
ubuntu for SuSE users *g* (no harm ment)

why are women so special and the others not?

Don't forget

ubuntu for rednecks

ubuntu for the rest-of-us

akak8ty
August 23rd, 2006, 03:47 AM
Yes, I do have to agree. There doesn't need to be a separate thread for women, and not other special interests groups.
Its Ubuntu For People isn't it?
So far I've encountered some pretty big (word I am not allowed to say-per the forum nazi's:roll:)

But I must confess, a woman does a better job ;)



Don't forget

ubuntu for rednecks

ubuntu for the rest-of-us

ExMachina
August 25th, 2006, 03:59 AM
We need women bc they smell good.. and like some have said are more forgiving with people who may not know exactly how to ask a question or just need to know somthing "stupid"..

GO GO WOMEN YOU ROCK...

elpuerco
September 4th, 2006, 12:20 PM
The 'women only' thing narks me a tad!

Going off topic here...

But why do women feel they need to infiltrate everything? If they see a men only club they take it to court if they are not allowed in etc etc.

But at the same time we have to put up with women only swimming sessions, women only car insurance etc etc. But if there was a man only swimming session or car insurance you can bet they would start shouting.

Lest us not forget at the same time they expect the doors to be held open for them, women first etc etc.

DONT FLAME ME, just sayin how I see it :confused:

akak8ty
September 4th, 2006, 01:13 PM
Growing up we had a different meaning for 'nark' at least in the states. I think AU and GB have another meaning.
It bothers me a bit as well- but its not surprising to me on this forum- and I am a woman.
I don't believe there needs to be a separate forums for any particular group- as we are all the same.
My first inception into Ubuntu I was quite taken back by the condescending attitudes of the men.
It was a woman's input (Ann, with numbers-667 I believe) that lead me in the right direction- and further readings online
I found that others felt the same way, so it wasn't just me
This topic has come up in another forum and I can't believe in this day and age it would be an issue- but in the reign of the Bushevick Regime we have indeed gone backwards, even downhill in the states.
Its difficult for me. Especially when reading the definition of Ubuntu, and my first experience was quite the opposite.
Unfortunately it is clear to me there is male chauvanism still looming, and feminism. A sure sign of gender insecure people to be so extreme.
I personally don't share the beliefs of either group.
I guess I am not so hung up on myself, and as a person feel socially tolerant towards all of human kind.
I apreciate your confusion because there really does not need to be a separate forum here for women.
We are talking about a computer program, not gender specific issues.
I won't flame you, because when I was very new to the program, that was what I was subject to- by the men. (One may have been a woman- it's hard to tell with images and names) I was very offended, and further flamed for expressing it, or attepmting to stand up for myself. Very unpalatable. But again, I was not alone in my experience, as was clearly validated by others on a private level.

Fortunately Ubuntu has enough to peak my interest further, (even though its clear to me Dapper Drake may still be a work in progress, and proved that by pulling an msn act by releasing an unstable upgrade) I realize that social ignorance is still quite prevalent in society. That is quite unfortunate indeed.
Clearly the direction we are going- as Einstien said WWIV will indeed be fought with sticks and stones-
Thanks guys for leading us BACK to the stone age.

Lin-X
October 3rd, 2006, 07:47 PM
Why do women "need to infiltrate everything"? Because culturally "everything" is automatically labeled MALE. Example: the PGA, Professional Golf Associatione is for men; women have the LPGA --- why don't men have to have the MPGA? Same with almost every other institution. Women are either barred or they are ignored. Maybe this forum is not so bad, but when I started using Linux four years ago, I soon saw the need to present myself online as male. I developed several personas for different forums; to this day, there is one forum where the members think I am a middle-aged man who is semi-retired from teaching highschool history classes, and another where I am known as a fifteen year old boy. I didn't do this because I thought it was funny, I did it because on many forums my posts were simply ignored (Knoppix for one), or I was flamed or scolded for being "stupid" (that's the nicest word applied to me.) I can't believe I am the only one who has experienced this.

As for having a Women's Forum here, I am very leary of the "special women's group" thing. In my experience this often leads to a kind of ghettoism that simply pushes women's ideas to the side so men don't have to be exposed to them. It can also backfire in another way: men don't visit women's groups. The very ideas and viewpoints that might help women's assimilation into
"everything" are never seen by men; only other women go there. It's preaching to the choir. I don't mean that this is so on this forum necessarily, or that I think there should not be a women's forum; I just don't see the need and have mixed feelings about the idea.

One last thing, what makes you think women "expect to have doors opened" for them. If you don't want to do that, don't. No one is going to care.

aysiu
October 3rd, 2006, 07:59 PM
Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).

And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.

I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.

I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...

akak8ty
October 3rd, 2006, 08:39 PM
Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).

And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.

I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.

I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...

Yes, I have to agree with aysiu. Its a little scary at your need to change identities, however. If you can't say what you need to as the very person you are- there is a problem.
Now I know in the states, the Bush regime has sent us spiraling backwards, that's no excuse. They'll also be our demise.

I hold doors for everyone and that is sometimes tricky to do NOW with a cane in one hand, trying to hold myself up and the door for others.
I have always been that way, and my disability didn't stop my desire to do the next right thing for the person in front, or behind me regardless of gender- we are human beings first.
In this day and age gender shouldn't even be an issue, although I am aware in some cultures it is. That is most unfortunate indeed.

Ohh- I realize I said something similar a couple posts up- so at least I am consistent in what I think and how feel :rolleyes: I have one identity. A 40 something woman with a passion for all there is in life who now lives in screaming pain every day, and can no longer do all there is in life. Technology I can still do...but its not enough any more.:(

Lord Illidan
October 3rd, 2006, 08:42 PM
Ubuntu Women is hardly a woman's ghetto, especially since most of the people who post here are men... or claim to be men (how will we ever know?).

And some women do expect to have doors opened for them. Others don't mind. Others despise it. People vary in tastes, cultures, expectations, and experiences.

I'm a man, and I love having doors opened for me. I'll be offended if someone opens a door for a woman and doesn't open one for me, too.

I'm rather surprised that you had to pretend to be a man to have your questions answered. Generally (and granted, things may have changed in the last few years on the Linux scene), I've found that men will bend over backwards to help Linux users who appear to be women. If anything, the annoying thing appears to be men hitting on new users who appear to be women. That's another problem altogether...

Aye, if I know a user is a woman, I'll help her out even more...go out of my way...especially if she looks good, hehe!

Lin-X
October 3rd, 2006, 10:18 PM
Well, lucky you! all of you who have never had any problem in Linux forums because you are female! I have had.

I did not say I couldn't say what I had to as my real identity; I said that when I used my real identity, I was invisible or slammed for being who I was.

I did not say that this women's forum was a ghetto; I only remarked that setting aside seperate areas for women within a larger group can lead to a weird kind of banishment. I've seen this many times in many types of environment. In any case, I don't really see a need for a women's forum, but it I don't object to it.

(Gee, this woman seems upset and critical. We wonder what's wrong with her. Maybe she's just imagining it. ... where have I heard that before?)