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akak8ty
October 4th, 2006, 06:26 AM
been there done that. my first day was riddled my ignorance by mostly men who were berating my experience in the IT genre, but we never used Linux- only windows platforms.

Thank Goodness someone published an article written by an IT professional who felt the same way when he got here- I believe he called it being "flamed by the fan boys" I have a few choice words for it myself, but they are not appropriate for this forum- being over 40 I was mature enough to rise above the ignorance, and have a fairly decent working system ...NOW- I figured Ubuntu was proving to be just as unstable as Edgy eft, so I might as well use Edgy.
I have had my share of problems, as others have but most of my solutions came from researching the issue.
Knot 3 was a joke.

I am too damn old and sick for foolishness. I came here to get windows off my machine and a alternate operating system in its place. I have done that with only moderate support from this forum, the rest, like anything else I've done I figured out myself.

Men have such frail ego's, don't stoop to their level and deny who you are- stand up for yourself, take what you need and leave the BS behind.
You have a choice, and I have always put to "thine own self be true" before most things.

Ben Sprinkle
October 5th, 2006, 04:28 PM
I think it's good.
I love women.

elpuerco
October 6th, 2006, 08:41 AM
I apologise if some of my post goes off topic, and also there is no intention on my part to offend anyone, I am just stating my own personal view.

My perspective in the UK it always seems to be the case that if there is a 'man only' area/group or whatever eventually some feminist will take them to court to force female entry. It does not go the other way!

I hold the door open for all male or female and love women like most red blooded males ;)

I know it is definitely a mans world and women usually have to work harder to acheive the same as a man gets for half the effort.

Alas....."not begging to get flamed here!"...but, the fact is it is a mans world, always has been and probably always will be. It does not matter how much woman or some men protest at that statement it is a fact.

I also strongly beleive that there are areas that should be strictly off limits to women examples are:

The fire service. Women may be capable but are not as strong as men and I am sure there are many times in fire emergencies that male strength rules supreme.

The armed forces. I am sorry but we live in a world where to put it bluntly we all know the evil that women suffer in conflict at the hands of the enemy. Why in Gods name would a country place women troops in such a dangerous situation where everyone knows what will happen to them if caught.

It does make me wonder however that if every country on the planet was ruled by female parliments the world would almost certainly be a better place.

What is that saying? "Men make war, women make love?"

aysiu
October 6th, 2006, 08:47 AM
If you believe men are generally physically stronger than women, why not just make the basis for fire and military service physical strength instead of gender?

That makes no sense.

So a weak man would be eligible to apply for the fire service (and likely get rejected), but a strong woman would be rejected flat out?

As a physically weak man myself, I take offense to that whole line of thinking. I'm often put in awkward situations where people have that mentality of "Oh, we have some heavy stuff that needs to be moved around. Are there any men here?" Why don't people just say, "We have some heavy stuff that needs to be moved... any strong people here?" If the strong people happen to be mostly men, so be it. But if there's a strong woman or a weak man, don't suppose the former can't help or that the latter can.

elpuerco
October 6th, 2006, 01:30 PM
As I stated in my post, no offence intended, but that is my view.

OK point taken regarding the fire service, yes it could be that there are cases where a woman could be stronger than a man, fair comment.

But taking into consideration the physical design differences that the male of the species is "usually" stronger than the female my comment is also a fair one.

But my view on the military still stands! Are you telling me that in a war zone a female captive will be treated in the same manner as a male? I don't think so.

Rightly or wrongly that is my personal view on the question of "it is a man's world"

A just one point to add....if we really do as some feel, live in an equal society, or want to feel that we do answer me this.....

Is it still not the case in almost all if not in fact all cases that the saying "women and children first" applies?

Why not children first, then first come first served?

Mmmmm I think I am opening a can of worms here?

Let me make myself clear as one has to in this pollically correct gone mad world.....

It is not my intention to offend anyone of any specific gender, race or creed, if I have then I apologise unreservedly.

However I am as is my right stating my views.

If the moderators or others for that matter feel my post has drifted off topic than please say so and I will call it a day.

I cannot say fairer than that surely?

Ben Sprinkle
October 6th, 2006, 04:33 PM
Alright alright let's end it mouse boy and cat man. Everyone is equal. :)

ProjectGod
October 10th, 2006, 12:59 PM
why do we need women?
cause theyre gorgeous and i'd be desolate and wretched without them :biggrin:

sorry i just can't help myself.

elpuerco
October 10th, 2006, 02:23 PM
hohohohohohohohho

here here :D

egon spengler
October 14th, 2006, 02:00 PM
But my view on the military still stands! Are you telling me that in a war zone a female captive will be treated in the same manner as a male? I don't think so.

As a guy you would still be prone to torture (see Guantanamo bay or Uzbekistan). I really doubt that if for whatever reason you got the Abner Louima treatment and had a sink plunger forcibly inserted into your anus you'd breath a sigh of relief afterwards and think "Lucky I wasn't female, it would've been much worse"


A just one point to add....if we really do as some feel, live in an equal society, or want to feel that we do answer me this.....

Is it still not the case in almost all if not in fact all cases that the saying "women and children first" applies?

Why not children first, then first come first served?

"Women and children first" really only applies to emergency situations, in what instances of everyday life do you hear it applied? It's interesting though that you take the somewhat patronising attitude of women being as weak as children and in need of more protection then the average guy as somehow being a blight on your freedoms or something. "Goddamn these women, their feeble asses will get saved first"

On top of that you repeatedly ackowledge that it is indeed a man's world yet for unknown reasons you begrudge females every little slight advantage they do have.


Oh, and for all the people replying along the lines of "I'm not sexist, I love women the gorgeous little creatures" do you honestly lack the marginal intelligence it takes to see the sexism in that or am I just missing truck loads of irony? It's not even that I especially care about the sexism, it's just stupidity is somehwat galling (unless of course you're all just cleverly ironic and I'm the stupid one)

kopilo
October 15th, 2006, 08:49 AM
why do we need women?
cause theyre gorgeous and i'd be desolate and wretched without them :biggrin:
I second this notion. :mrgreen:

DoctorMO
October 15th, 2006, 06:46 PM
Logical Mode: Women grouping produces false results when used to get generalised and statisticaly significant data. The most efficent data assignment is a gender property instead of a grouping (although I think it's a group of properties really). I am not a man I am a human who is a male. same for every other human grouping; it falls down to wanting to know something about people you don't know yet by suggesting they will fall into a generalised datum.

It's it better to just think of people as people and then find out what their like?

Lin-X
October 17th, 2006, 09:45 PM
Maybe women don't like the idea that during conventional warfare men have the weapons and women are left completely unarmed and untrained. You know how women are treated in times of war? Well, sweety, so do we.

Old Pink
October 17th, 2006, 09:51 PM
If there is a Ubuntu Women forum, surely there should be a Ubuntu Men forum? Who exactly is this sexist towards? Are we saying men don't deserve their own forum, or are we saying women don't deserve to be included in the regular discussion?

I personally think this is slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?

aysiu
October 17th, 2006, 09:53 PM
Matt H, you have no idea what you're talking about. Ubuntu Women is not a separate ISO.

Please read the sticky (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679)--that's what it's there for.

DoctorMO
October 17th, 2006, 10:06 PM
Yea Matt. H is wrong this isn't a version of ubuntu but a place we can make Women welcome in the Ubuntu comunity.

Old Pink
October 17th, 2006, 10:43 PM
So, I was wrong? I made some edits, am no longer wrong and feel the same way about a different subject. Move on.

kairu0
October 17th, 2006, 11:18 PM
This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.

Oops.

emarkay
October 18th, 2006, 01:19 AM
Totally for fun: Wimmin? They's cute 'nd cuddily and lotsa fun!

Semi seriously: Without them, none of us'd be here!

Seriously: Wouldn't it be nice if gender suddenly became a non issue - everywhere?

Unfortunately it is near impossible to elminate the biological instincts that affect us, and there is some research that shows that there ARE physiological gender differences that may preclude a complete elimination of the stereotypes.(read "The Female Brain" - http://louannbrizendine.com/ )

But for now, I try to be as unbiased as I can in life and online.

Buzzygirl
October 18th, 2006, 01:57 AM
I personally think this is slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?

I never really thought about participating in any other way. I don't give a second's worth of thought as to the gender of the readers/posters... I care more about what you know than what type of plumbing you've got. :)

PrinceArithon
October 18th, 2006, 05:14 PM
What about what operating system?? :mrgreen:

Aaron

elpuerco
October 18th, 2006, 06:30 PM
As a guy you would still be prone to torture (see Guantanamo bay or Uzbekistan). I really doubt that if for whatever reason you got the Abner Louima treatment and had a sink plunger forcibly inserted into your anus you'd breath a sigh of relief afterwards and think "Lucky I wasn't female, it would've been much worse"

Don't know who Abner Louima is, don't care about GBay either, but please, women fair far worse than men in any conflict civilian or otherwise.

Der....I am not saying women are weaker than men, actually I am saying I don't think they should be sent into a war zone, but hey you know best :rolleyes:


"Women and children first" really only applies to emergency situations, in what instances of everyday life do you hear it applied?

emergency situations of course!


It's interesting though that you take the somewhat patronising attitude of women being as weak as children and in need of more protection then the average guy as somehow being a blight on your freedoms or something. "Goddamn these women, their feeble asses will get saved first"

:confused: where did I say women were as weak as children?
:confused: where did I say they were a blight on my freedom?
:confused: You last qoute is your own, I never said that?


On top of that you repeatedly ackowledge that it is indeed a man's world yet for unknown reasons you begrudge females every little slight advantage they do have.

You miss the point entirely


Oh, and for all the people replying along the lines of "I'm not sexist, I love women the gorgeous little creatures" do you honestly lack the marginal intelligence it takes to see the sexism in that or am I just missing truck loads of irony? It's not even that I especially care about the sexism, it's just stupidity is somehwat galling (unless of course you're all just cleverly ironic and I'm the stupid one)

](*,)

Last and not least, lighten up for God's sake! ;)

elpuerco
October 18th, 2006, 06:33 PM
If there is a Ubuntu Women forum, surely there should be a Ubuntu Men forum? Who exactly is this sexist towards? Are we saying men don't deserve their own forum, or are we saying women don't deserve to be included in the regular discussion?

I personally think this is slightly sexist, and should a women want to try Ubuntu she should do exactly the same as a male and download the regular edition, and talk about it in the regular forum, why should she be any less capable of this?

Excellent post! I agee 100% ;)

elpuerco
October 18th, 2006, 06:35 PM
This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.

Oops.

Holy crap!

I just fell off my seat laughing at you post. Golly I needed that laugh thanks:D

DoctorMO
October 19th, 2006, 12:45 AM
This whole thread is absurd and I'm not even going to patronize it by adding yet another reply.

Oops.

I agree and will be following his lead!

Damn,

Ben Sprinkle
October 20th, 2006, 04:23 PM
42 is not an anwser, it's an error code. the universe is saying 'Error 42: meaning to universe not found'

That's from that one movie!
I forget whats called. But it said 42 is the meaning of life!
Whew!

DoctorMO
October 20th, 2006, 10:41 PM
No the film was the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy by Douglas Adams (or a rewrite there of) which started life as a BBC radio show. then DNA made a Book (well 5 books: The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy, The Restraunt at the End of the Universe, Life the Universe and Everything, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish and the worst book ever to come out of Megadodo Publications of of Ursa Minor Beta, Mostly Harmless)

I'm a big fan of the books and the radio series even the tv show was passable but the film... hmmm, even though I was at the world premier in London and got to meet some of the cast... it just doesn't have the same feel and the american interjections and the romatic plot fail the majestic single finger up at the universe the original was all about.

But enough of that: how many women read H2G2?

egon spengler
October 22nd, 2006, 01:13 AM
Excellent post! I agee 100% ;)

Small wonder being similarly dense

tubasoldier
October 22nd, 2006, 01:55 AM
IWhy don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)


You Go Boy! We need this so we can read about how Ubuntu has penetrated your life!

kateshine
October 22nd, 2006, 06:05 AM
Wow. Can I just say - wow.
I just read (well, scanned near the end) through this thread in one sitting, and can I say - wow.

1. The fact that people have such strong feelings - that this thread exists at all - is proof that a discussion, of SOME sort, is absolutely necessary. If it means a separate forum is necessary, so be it.

2. This whole conversation is idiotic.

3. I realize that 1. and 2. contradict each other.

4. This is about more than sex/gender relations.

5. It is about affirmative action. Groups who have historically been marginalized by mainstream culture are now being supported in ways that the majority deem unfair. Whether it is unfair, or whether it is the ONLY thing that is fair, is something I will not address.

6. I am a woman

7. I make no claims to be a tech goddess, Ubuntu or otherwise

8. I feel very nervous making this post. I am afraid I will be looked down upon. Whether that is my own low self-esteem is a matter not to be addressed here.

9. I am not a stereotype.

10. I do not speak for anyone other than myself

11. Congratulations. For the time being, you have successfully scared me away from the forums. (But you have not scared me away from my newly discovered, yet already beloved Ubuntu)

12. That is all.

Kate

migla
October 22nd, 2006, 11:24 AM
Seeing as women as a group are structurally discriminated against (as can be found out by statistics on wages or statistics on for example discovered and treated medical conditions and a plethora of other issues) everywhere in the world and have been for all time, I'm in favor of having a forum for highlighting women in particular, just like there often are womens groups within political parties and other sorts of groupings.

I would like it if we all could just be humans to each others, but the general norm everywhere is still the man, so womens point of view (wherever it may differ from a mans experience) needs to be considered.

Lin-X
October 22nd, 2006, 03:14 PM
I agree with Old Pink that we don't need a women's forum, but that is really beside the point because this is not a women's forum, it's a place where men come to attack women. First we had whining because the women had a seperate group, then complaining about women wanting to be included "eveywhere." Some how it seems that behind all this boiling tostesterone is the fervent idea that women should not exist anywhere. Don't fool yourself, this is a men's forum. Man is the One, woman is the Other.

Sef
October 22nd, 2006, 03:41 PM
I agree with Old Pink that we don't need a women's forum, but that is really beside the point because this is not a women's forum, it's a place where men come to attack women. First we had whining because the women had a seperate group, then complaining about women wanting to be included "eveywhere." Some how it seems that behind all this boiling tostesterone is the fervent idea that women should not exist anywhere. Don't fool yourself, this is a men's forum. Man is the One, woman is the Other.

(Bold is mine.)

Not all men have attacked, whined, complained, and think of woman as the other. Some men have and I will agree with that. But to say all men have is to cut yourself off. (Just like the men who think of women like what you stated in your post.)

Ben Sprinkle
October 23rd, 2006, 01:11 PM
No the film was the Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy by Douglas Adams (or a rewrite there of) which started life as a BBC radio show. then DNA made a Book (well 5 books: The Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galexy, The Restraunt at the End of the Universe, Life the Universe and Everything, So Long and Thanks for All the Fish and the worst book ever to come out of Megadodo Publications of of Ursa Minor Beta, Mostly Harmless)

I'm a big fan of the books and the radio series even the tv show was passable but the film... hmmm, even though I was at the world premier in London and got to meet some of the cast... it just doesn't have the same feel and the american interjections and the romatic plot fail the majestic single finger up at the universe the original was all about.

But enough of that: how many women read H2G2?

That's right, I saw that movie awhile back. Never read the books, but books are generally better then the movies. :)

elpuerco
October 23rd, 2006, 03:53 PM
Small wonder being similarly dense

You are very observant indeed as it is true that my density is such that it would be nigh impossible to forcibly insert said plunger into my anus!

You however I feel would have no such trouble, as I am sure the plunger + handle + the inserters arm would fit comfortably up yours ;)

matthew
October 23rd, 2006, 04:17 PM
Alright, I'm officially offended by some of the most recent posts. This thread is done. Please read post #156 (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1646955&postcount=156)if you need help understanding why.

Women, you are welcome in Ubuntu and in these forums. We need you because without your presence society degrades rapidly and because without your unique perspectives we are incomplete.

Pay no attention to the chauvinistic remarks some of the guys made. I'll go give them noogies and tell them their rudeness is not welcome.

Zlatan
February 25th, 2007, 04:04 PM
why do u need this forum? are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand, please argue. e.g. guys do not demand for something like this and they are ok.
what's wrong with you?

bapoumba
February 25th, 2007, 05:23 PM
Hello :)

This thread is sticky and pretty much explains it all:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=34679

There are very few women in the overall Linux community, and they often face specific rude or sexists comments, even if it is largely improving thanks to active groups like debian-women, LinuxChix or ubuntu-women (and other distribution-women groups). Everybody is welcome in this forum, regardless of gender. There is nothing wrong ;)

PriceChild
February 25th, 2007, 05:44 PM
Ahem

are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand,

There are very few women in the overall Linux community, and they often face specific rude or sexists comments,

Zlatan
February 25th, 2007, 08:30 PM
I just had a specific comment upon me- please create my own forum?;]
if seriously- i suppose moderators should work better in general forums in order to feel EVERYONE ok there. and there will be no need for such separated forums.
more about comments- they are everywhere and for everyone. people are social beings and they can not avoide them.
anyway... whatever...

gamerchick02
February 25th, 2007, 08:37 PM
why do u need this forum? are women too good for general forums? or too dumb? i do not understand, please argue. e.g. guys do not demand for something like this and they are ok.
what's wrong with you?

The correct philosophic answer would be "Why not?"

And I say, "why not?". It doesn't hurt anything. I like having a group of women I can turn to with problems. Not to say that the men aren't helpful (they are!) but sometimes women can describe things differently.

Anyway, I was involved in some women's groups in college (engineering major) and I found it to help me greatly. It keeps things in perspective. It also lets women know that there are other women who are interested in linux/computers/engineering/whatever.

My $0.02.

Amy

Henry Rayker
February 25th, 2007, 08:50 PM
One major advantage is the fact that, if women come to the forums, one first question they'll have is, "Am I the only girl in here??" If she sees a group devoted to her gender, she will feel more welcome and comfortable.

The thing is, males expect this community (and most computing communities) to be filled with males; we don't need that kind of comfort. If a guy were considering taking a traditionally female hobby, he would probably seek other males with the same interests.

Zlatan
February 25th, 2007, 08:55 PM
personally i do not have a problem with girls in linux, my wife uses ubuntu as well. i wonder why girls tend to have problems with it, e.g., asking about other girls in forum, etc.

PriceChild
February 25th, 2007, 09:06 PM
i wonder why girls tend to have problems with it, e.g., asking about other girls in forum, etc.Zlaten please stop.

Henry Rayker
February 25th, 2007, 09:11 PM
Girls don't have any more problems with using Ubuntu than males do. Both genders ask questions. The forums aren't, however, just a place to ask questions; they're a place to fit in, answer questions and just, generally, fit in and establish a community. You could ask the same thing about the LOCO groups...why do people from Ohio need to have their own forum? These groups are establishing a community composed of members who share some traits (location, minority gender, etc)

johnc4510
February 25th, 2007, 09:11 PM
This sub-forum is no differnt than having a separate LoCo Team. I say more power to you. I also have seen PriceChild and bapoumba on the main forum a lot and always pay close attention to what they have to say.

r4ik
February 25th, 2007, 09:38 PM
Place in correct perspective please.

Respect or love for another gender/race or faith has nothing to do with understanding it.

TheWizzard
February 25th, 2007, 11:55 PM
why do u need this forum?

"why the hell not?"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Friedman#Politics)

Zlatan
February 26th, 2007, 08:28 PM
"why the hell not?"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinky_Friedman#Politics)

so maybe i need my personal forum? please create one:)

aysiu
February 26th, 2007, 09:58 PM
This has been discussed ad nauseum. I've merged you with all the discussion that's taken place before. If you believe you have something original to add, by all means, keep discussing this topic.

Zlatan
February 27th, 2007, 10:51 AM
This has been discussed ad nauseum. I've merged you with all the discussion that's taken place before. If you believe you have something original to add, by all means, keep discussing this topic.

thank you, aysiu. that was an interesting thread:)

i still wonder someone says it is not sexism to maintain such forum, when there's SEX in it's name. i understand that there could be a good will but i am sure this is not the way to avoid sexism to create separate forum. this is my opinion.

darklyndsea
February 28th, 2007, 10:47 PM
I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.

bapoumba
February 28th, 2007, 10:53 PM
I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.
Welcome, darklyndsea. You can find uselful links here: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=305147

kopilo
March 1st, 2007, 12:21 AM
One major advantage is the fact that, if women come to the forums, one first question they'll have is, "Am I the only girl in here??" If she sees a group devoted to her gender, she will feel more welcome and comfortable.

The thing is, males expect this community (and most computing communities) to be filled with males; we don't need that kind of comfort. If a guy were considering taking a traditionally female hobby, he would probably seek other males with the same interests.

Just thinking that because there is a forum dedicated to one gender it could also be highlighting how much of a minority women in linux (and IT in general) are.

I guess females are an accepted minority so it doesn't make that much of a differance.

HasratUSA
March 9th, 2007, 08:04 AM
is that girls-only? come on invite me and i'll solve all your linux-related problems from a-z lol seriously :lolflag:

bapoumba
March 9th, 2007, 09:33 AM
@ HasratUSA: moved your post to this more appropriate thread. You should read it.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 01:52 AM
Where is the Ubuntu Men board?

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 02:21 AM
why would you want a Ubuntu Men's Forum?

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:34 AM
For the same reason there is a women's board.

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 02:35 AM
For the same reason there is a women's board.
and what do you think that reason is?

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:46 AM
The community would be for Ubuntu men, a group designed to make men more comfortable with Linux and the Ubuntu Community. It would NOT be meant to separate men from the rest of the community.

In the spirit of equality it is my firm belief that if women have a special area that men should be afforded that same opportunity. To be honest I was offended to see the Ubuntu Women area when one of the issues raised was to avoid sexism... the creation of a special area is in itself sexist. Then again I am very sensitive to issues of inequity; being male in the United States will do that once you turn eighteen.

Personally I think one of the reasons society still has sexism and racism is the fact that the very groups that "claim" discrimination will segregate themselves in to groups.

MetalMusicAddict
April 6th, 2007, 02:52 AM
Not that its that big a deal but I do see where someone could feel like its divisive.

Why not a forum for just black or white folks? If we can have a forum for specific sexes, why not race?

In the end I really dont care, just playing devils advocate.http://ubuntuforums.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

yabbadabbadont
April 6th, 2007, 02:55 AM
just playing devils advocate.http://ubuntuforums.org/images/icons/icon13.gif

Hmmm... perhaps we need a forum for Devil's Advocates too. ;)

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:57 AM
Hmmm... perhaps we need a forum for Devil's Advocates too. ;)

LOL

At least you made me laugh.

I truly think communities should stay together and not segregate themselves. I used to dream that racism and sexism would end, but I no longer believe I will live to see it. Part of the reason is that special interest groups serve their special little groups and do nothing to address issues in general. The object should be to level the scales, not tilt them a different way.

adam.tropics
April 6th, 2007, 03:58 AM
...I used to dream that racism and sexism would end, but I no longer believe I will live to see it....

That's actually quite sad.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 04:03 AM
That's actually quite sad.

I agree... but with the passing of youth so too the passing of over-abundant hope.

adam.tropics
April 6th, 2007, 04:08 AM
...then I suggest you spend plenty more time here. It may help to restore some of your faith in your peers!

Motoxrdude
April 6th, 2007, 04:11 AM
Eh, look at this forum. at least 95% are males. It's already a "mans" forum.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 04:45 AM
Adam:

I have faith in the people that are here and most of the people I live near, but for some reason society as a whole does not inspire such faith. My goal now is to pass along those dreams and hopes to my children so that maybe in their lives things can change.

Motox:

Its an Ubuntu users board... not a man's board nor a women's board.

Motoxrdude
April 6th, 2007, 05:53 AM
Adam:

I have faith in the people that are here and most of the people I live near, but for some reason society as a whole does not inspire such faith. My goal now is to pass along those dreams and hopes to my children so that maybe in their lives things can change.

Motox:

Its an Ubuntu users board... not a man's board nor a women's board.

Yes, but it mostly consists of males, so it pretty much is a "mans" forum anyway. Not to exclude anyone or anything like that.

aysiu
April 6th, 2007, 06:03 AM
My thoughts on the issue (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=405517#post405517).

Apparently, if your left foot got run over by a car, you would insist the ER operate on your entire body and not just your left foot... so as not to discriminate against other parts of your body that may feel neglected. If that's what equality means to you, then you must have an interesting life.

bapoumba
April 6th, 2007, 10:47 AM
@ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times.

When women will be fully integrated in Linux communities, when they will not face specific useless comments anymore, when most of them will not see the need of (distribution)-women groups (ubuntu-women, debian-women, fedora-women...) or LinuxChix to be able to discuss freely and deal with all of this, then these areas, mailing lists, web sites will disappear.
In the mean time, they do exist. If you are questioning the need of such places, requesting a men's area is not the best way to do it ;)

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 01:58 PM
@ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times.

When women will be fully integrated in Linux communities, when they will not face specific useless comments anymore, when most of them will not see the need of (distribution)-women groups (ubuntu-women, debian-women, fedora-women...) or LinuxChix to be able to discuss freely and deal with all of this, then these areas, mailing lists, web sites will disappear.
In the mean time, they do exist. If you are questioning the need of such places, requesting a men's area is not the best way to do it ;)

I will read it, but to be fair if a women area is created so too should a men area be created - equality should be equal. Trying to correct an issue by creating a different issue is not a solution. creating an area for women without creating an area for men is sexist... just like what happened in the real world with the forced removal of male only colleges despite the fact that sexist female colleges still exist. Wellesly, Mount Holyoke, etc -- I give lots of credit to Vassar for realizing the duplicity of the seven sister colleges and becoming coed.

I find it odd that people engaged in an on-line forum would run around proclaiming themselve female when they feel they are feel they need a special area to feel comfortable. On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.

The fact is that by making a set of women centric forums you have actually halted the integration of women in Linux communities.

I do not mean to appear rude, but I have strong convictions about racism and sexism particularly in regards to groups that operate in the shadow of "we are the opressed minority" while all the time they seek nothing more than to achieve unequal benefits above others in the name of righting some past wrong.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:10 PM
Ten years ago, the medical falculties took action to increase women enrollment in med school. I was just speaking to a police officer who says the same thing just happened five years ago in their field. The is a recurring pattern accross many occupations in the past few years.

No such thing has happened in the computer science discipline yet.

And all of those actions are forms of gender descrimination because they seek to advance one sex over the other. I see a need to ensure that girls and boys are exposed to math and science equally -- I see the need to give girls role models that are involved in math and science (TV Shows like BONES are great), but to actively seek to employ or allow entrance to a school based on sex is by definition sexist.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:12 PM
I personally am glad that this forum is here, because I don't know any women in real life who use Linux, and it's good to know I'm not alone.

You are not alone -- you are a human being and there are lots of human beings using Linux.

panickedthumb
April 6th, 2007, 02:14 PM
I think you're missing the point of the section. When I started the forum section with Kassetra, it was because we both knew many women who used Ubuntu and didn't feel comfortable posting because of the male dominance and how men joked around about them. The IT sector is dominated by men, and women have a really hard time getting anywhere with the snobbish guys. Therefore-- this section was created as a "buffer" zone so to speak, to get women accustomed to the community so they could totally integrate, like what you're talking about.

bapoumba
April 6th, 2007, 02:24 PM
I will read it, but to be fair if a women area is created so too should a men area be created - equality should be equal.

You probably have noticed that the ubuntu-women sub-forum is in the 3rd Party Projects (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46) area. Please browse through these projects.

ubuntu-woman has an ubuntu mailing list, a wiki and a web site, an irc channel, mentoring programs, irc classes etc.
Basically, it's a project to encourage women participating in Ubuntu community and feel welcome. Last survey showed around 2.5% women in Ubuntu community. Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.

Henry Rayker
April 6th, 2007, 02:31 PM
You are not alone -- you are a human being and there are lots of human beings using Linux.

No offense, but I think that bears absolutely no consolation. Obviously there are lots of human beings using linux...the giraffes haven't figured out a way to get the disks in the drives....long necks, you know. Psychologically, people tend to feel included when there are other people who share something in common. The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender.

As far as "taking action to increase enrollment" goes, in many fields (such as the Computer Science field, for example) women aren't hired simply BECAUSE they are female. "Increasing enrollment" could, quite easily and, in many cases does mean to stop the discrimination that's already in place; another obvious choice is to attempt to equally prepare both genders for such jobs/school/etc. The med school example was, more likely than not, just a situation where an incredibly disproportionate number of females who were eligible to apply for med school weren't, so they attempted to increase based on that...the only attempt at "advancing one gender over the other" is in terms of the current state of things where women are getting screwed over.

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.but thats never going to happen, even with all the encouragement and incentives in the world ;). there are interests/activities that males generally find appealing and there are interests/activities that women generally find appealing, and operating systems or programming will never be one of those interests/activities that women will ever generally find as appealing as blokes do. not until women become men, anyway.

megamania
April 6th, 2007, 02:36 PM
In the spirit of equality it is my firm belief that if women have a special area that men should be afforded that same opportunity.
"the spirit of equality" should not lead to do the same things for different beings.

Ubuntu Women has a logic in this mostly-male linux-world. There would be a need for Ubuntu Men if the situation was the other way round.

"Equal rights" doesn't mean "same things for all", because different people/species have different needs.

In my opinion, one of the big mistakes of feminism was/is the will to do the same things as men. It would be much better to fight for the respect of differences (which is the beauty of life) rather than to fight to have the right to behave like something you are not.

Lucifiel
April 6th, 2007, 02:41 PM
As a female, I can say it's really difficult trying to learn computers on your own. Nevermind sexism, the different cultural attitudes governing the roles of "males" and "females" as well as "men" and "women" can be a real downer.

Heh... the reason why many females choose to pretend to be a male is because many still somehow regard females as an alien species when it comes to computers. Not to mention the learning approach, etc. ,etc.

The reason why I said "cultural attitudes" is because more than once, many have tried to apply their various cultural ideologies to me. That is: "What a woman/female/girl should behave like" and so on and not to mention, the stereotypical American white male who tries to pick a bone with me(Sorry for the stereotype but I've met so many of them, it's become a common thing for me). They were lucky, I wasn't as aggressive or as vocal as I am now. :)

bapoumba
April 6th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Hello CN :)

Well, this is a very wide question here. Why would women not be interested in IT, or in Sciences in general? Probably because of stereotypes in education, girls are driven to some areas, boys to others. Neither ones are fully raised according to their individual skills or prefered subjects.

Ubuntu is also desktop oriented, it's a distribution aiming at end users, not only at kernel hackers. So why half of these end users are not women?

frodon
April 6th, 2007, 02:50 PM
@PrivateVoid , i think that on a general note it's better to talk about equity rather than equality because equality don't always imply equity ;)

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 02:51 PM
Hello CN :)

Well, this is a very wide question here. Why would women not be interested in IT, or in Sciences in general? Probably because of stereotypes in education, girls are driven to some areas, boys to others. Neither ones are fully raised according to their individual skills or prefered subjects.

Ubuntu is also desktop oriented, it's a distribution aiming at end users, not only at kernel hackers. So why half of these end users are not women?
because mens and womens brains are very different. of course, we all would like to see equality for both men and women where there can be, but men aren't women and women aren't men.
testosterone, on its own, tends to make males naturally more interested in gadgety things than females.
thats why, even in a perfect world, there will always always always be inequality.

i'm not saying that no women are interested in IT, science, and gadgety things. far from it. but in general, they will always be less interested in it than men are.

panickedthumb
April 6th, 2007, 02:58 PM
yes, but I think bapoumba is saying that everyone uses computers (almost) whether they're men or women, and Linux can be a viable alternative for windows for both men and women, so women shouldn't be discounted because they aren't "typically" interested in technology.

Just look at the "Did I turn my sister into a computer geek?" thread in the cafe.

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 03:35 PM
yes, but I think bapoumba is saying that everyone uses computers (almost) whether they're men or women, and Linux can be a viable alternative for windows for both men and women, so women shouldn't be discounted because they aren't "typically" interested in technology.

Just look at the "Did I turn my sister into a computer geek?" thread in the cafe.
oh, ok. so what you're saying is that, given that there may well be a (say) 60:40% ratio for men and women, respectively, using computers in general, why isn't this ratio being reflected in ubuntu?

panickedthumb
April 6th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Yes, that's part of it at least. At least that was one of the goals when kass and I started it... since then I haven't been as involved so I'm not sure this is a current goal. I think it should be though.

I do agree with you to the point that men may be biologically more likely to want to try linux, but it's also got a lot to do with the nature vs. nurture debate. We may never really know. But I think women have been taught that it's not "ladylike" to be interested in technology, and that could be the problem we should solve.

Anyway, we moderators are highjacking the thread :)

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 03:59 PM
<hijack>
that seems fair enough as far as i can see :).

nurture does play some part.
</hijack>

aysiu
April 6th, 2007, 04:36 PM
@ PrivateVoid: please read the thread aysiu's pointed at you. I was even thinking about merging your's in there... It's been discussed so many times. I've gone ahead and merged it in.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 05:30 PM
I think this section of the forums is not inteded to be a safe environment for women or a place where women adress pre-concived representations of what is being a woman. It's more of a place for discussing-promoting-devise projects, ideas and concerns in Ubuntu but with a prespective of women that continue to be in lesser number in the IT world. Realising that there is huge population of men developing software and that not always they take a perspective diferent from them. It's not that Ubuntu Women is addressing GUI stuff like more pink and more flowers or watch your language! Just read a bit what the women in ubuntu women are talking about.

And I do not really see the need for every other spawn of ubuntu forums, we could go to a infinite number of option here and it's not about that I think. Ubuntu Women is not intended to be a kind of segregated place [«oh yeah, that is the girls club over there«]

Women are half of humanity, and in that group there are gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world contained.

This not to say that ubuntuforums main sections are male only areas [ with gay, handicapped, any other ethnical variety that exists in the world]

I personally agree that there is no need for special interest group forums too -- that includes special forums for women who are actually the majority in the world. There is no need to segregate women to a special forum they can hold their own in the "main" forums just as well I suspect.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 05:43 PM
I think you're missing the point of the section. When I started the forum section with Kassetra, it was because we both knew many women who used Ubuntu and didn't feel comfortable posting because of the male dominance and how men joked around about them. The IT sector is dominated by men, and women have a really hard time getting anywhere with the snobbish guys. Therefore-- this section was created as a "buffer" zone so to speak, to get women accustomed to the community so they could totally integrate, like what you're talking about.

Perhaps what was needed is a special forum in which the "snobbish guys" could act snobbish and then the main forums could be cleaned of that attitude.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 05:45 PM
You probably have noticed that the ubuntu-women sub-forum is in the 3rd Party Projects (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46) area. Please browse through these projects.

ubuntu-woman has an ubuntu mailing list, a wiki and a web site, an irc channel, mentoring programs, irc classes etc.
Basically, it's a project to encourage women participating in Ubuntu community and feel welcome. Last survey showed around 2.5% women in Ubuntu community. Make it 50%, then we will talk about equality.

%'s have nothing to do with equality. Opportunity beign equal is what is important. I still can not see any reason to segregate women off in to their own community.

If you were asking the population to be sensitive to women using Ubuntu/Linux and did not ask for special areas I would be all for that.

To me this issue is just like women complaining about the "Glass Ceiling" but at the same time not forcing the issue that they should have to register for the draft (United States).

I admit that I have no idea what it is like to be a women, but no women knows what it is like to be a man either.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 05:55 PM
No offense, but I think that bears absolutely no consolation. Obviously there are lots of human beings using linux...the giraffes haven't figured out a way to get the disks in the drives....long necks, you know. Psychologically, people tend to feel included when there are other people who share something in common. The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender.

As far as "taking action to increase enrollment" goes, in many fields (such as the Computer Science field, for example) women aren't hired simply BECAUSE they are female. "Increasing enrollment" could, quite easily and, in many cases does mean to stop the discrimination that's already in place; another obvious choice is to attempt to equally prepare both genders for such jobs/school/etc. The med school example was, more likely than not, just a situation where an incredibly disproportionate number of females who were eligible to apply for med school weren't, so they attempted to increase based on that...the only attempt at "advancing one gender over the other" is in terms of the current state of things where women are getting screwed over.

1) "The biggest and easiest for us to associate is gender" -- I really don't believe that. There are simply too many holes there. No one knows what gender a person is on the web; so why would it matter unless you seek to make it an issue? I would think grouping by language or culture more important than Gender. I do not think you would find chinese women chosing to hang out with spanish women over grouping with chinese men -- the language barrier alone would be an issue. My other point here is that racism, nationalism, and sexism can only cease once people no longer see that at the "best" way to group people. Just because current "norms" in society make it ok to have female only colleges but not male only colleges doesn't make the practice correct. Would you be offended if there were all male colleges, or if golf clubs restricted membership to men only? I would not be! If there can be male institutions then there can be female only institutions - I would imagine in some areas that is needed, but in general areas I think it is just an accepted form of sexism.

2) Actively increasing enrollement bases on gender is sexist - if you wish to support sexist policies that is your choice. You claim that there are cases in which women are not hired simply because they are women, but then you support an active policy of hiring women ONLY because they are women. Both are equally unacceptable to me. People should be hired because they ARE the MOST qualified.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 05:59 PM
"the spirit of equality" should not lead to do the same things for different beings.

Ubuntu Women has a logic in this mostly-male linux-world. There would be a need for Ubuntu Men if the situation was the other way round.

"Equal rights" doesn't mean "same things for all", because different people/species have different needs.

In my opinion, one of the big mistakes of feminism was/is the will to do the same things as men. It would be much better to fight for the respect of differences (which is the beauty of life) rather than to fight to have the right to behave like something you are not.

There is still no need for Ubuntu Women as an area -- some select moderators; yes. Some instructions for "rude" males to be respectful; yes.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 06:06 PM
As a female, I can say it's really difficult trying to learn computers on your own. Nevermind sexism, the different cultural attitudes governing the roles of "males" and "females" as well as "men" and "women" can be a real downer.

Heh... the reason why many females choose to pretend to be a male is because many still somehow regard females as an alien species when it comes to computers. Not to mention the learning approach, etc. ,etc.

The reason why I said "cultural attitudes" is because more than once, many have tried to apply their various cultural ideologies to me. That is: "What a woman/female/girl should behave like" and so on and not to mention, the stereotypical American white male who tries to pick a bone with me(Sorry for the stereotype but I've met so many of them, it's become a common thing for me). They were lucky, I wasn't as aggressive or as vocal as I am now. :)

I agree with you on the cultural attitudes... As a society we have to afford people the right to puruse what interests they wish as long as they don't harm other people or our environment. Boys who want to be nurses should not be mocked. Men who want to be home with their families should not be ridiculed or have promotions held back from them. Women who want to be physicists should not be mocked. Women who want to climb the company ladder and never see their families should not be ridiculed.

There are "issues" in every field that affect both genders and often in different and opposite directions. At times these differences in gender expectations actually cause further problems for the opposite gender. If it was more acceptable for men to be "Mr. Mom" in society then more women would have the oportunity to be the "Career Women" while the children still got the attention they deserve. I am in the job I am in because I want to spend time with my children and I get paid less than several females I know... and am often told if I want more money I should put more time in to show effort -- yet those women are not expected to do that -- because they have kids. I have kids too... and usually am the person who cooks dinner so why am I expected to put in probono hours for my workplace to earn a promotion or increase in pay?

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 06:11 PM
@PrivateVoid , i think that on a general note it's better to talk about equity rather than equality because equality don't always imply equity ;)



e·qual·i·ty
the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability.



eq·ui·ty
the quality of being fair or impartial; fairness; impartiality


I acknowledge that people are different and not truly equal. I am weaker than other people mentally, physically and emotionally... at the same time I am stronger than others in those areas. I had not really separated the two thoughts... but yes equity to me is the only way to achieve meaningful equality of opportunity.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 06:16 PM
Yes, that's part of it at least. At least that was one of the goals when kass and I started it... since then I haven't been as involved so I'm not sure this is a current goal. I think it should be though.

I do agree with you to the point that men may be biologically more likely to want to try linux, but it's also got a lot to do with the nature vs. nurture debate. We may never really know. But I think women have been taught that it's not "ladylike" to be interested in technology, and that could be the problem we should solve.

Anyway, we moderators are highjacking the thread :)

You can hijack it all you want... just because you are mods doesn't strip you of having valuable input.

My daughter has been interested and encouraged to enjoy sports and technology. In the first two or three months of her toddling around she always came over and pointed to the parts of my computer when I was cleaning out the case or swapping parts. She to this day still loves technology -- though more interested in watching clips of boy bands. (she is only six, but takes after Daddy there too... I had my first date in Kindergarten).

My son has shown interest is sports and women's shoes, but not technology. I am fine with both.

My unborn daughter has only shown the desire to kick mommy's tummy alot so far, but I am sure she will be her own unique person when she is born on the 24th of April.

My appologies for going response crazy... I am rather passionate on the topic -- and I truly do not mean to disregard the feelings of others or offend while trying to express my thoughts and feelings.

daynah
April 6th, 2007, 06:32 PM
Then there's no need for...

http://www.witi.com/ Women in Technology International
http://www.anitaborg.org/index.php Anita Borg Institute for Women in Technology
http://www.womenintech.com/ Women in Technology (Maui Economic Development Board)

http://www.awm-math.org/ Association for Women in Mathematics
http://www.math.ca/Women/ Canadian Committee for Women in Mathematics

http://www.setwomenresource.org.uk/ UK Resource Centre for Women in SET
http://www.awis.org/careers/edfoundation.html Association for Women in Science

http://www.awc-hq.org/ Association for Women in Computing

http://www.agnesscott.edu/ Agnes Scott College
www.brynmawr.edu Bryn Mawy College
www.cnr.edu The College of New Rochelle
www.douglass.rutgers.edu Douglass College of Rutgers University
...just all of the colleges on this list and more http://www.womenscolleges.org/colleges/bycollege.htm


Go to them and tell them that.

THE SCIENCE BEHIND WOMEN: In fact, why do you go to the American Psychological Association and debate them. Like... even though Science and math aptitude is unrelated to gender (http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/gender.html), women aren't going into science related fields. (http://books.apa.org/books.cfm?id=4316085) Yes, we are [Women and minorities] mak[ing] gains in science and engineering education (http://www.apa.org/monitor/nov00/edstats.html), but we're still wondering why women choose medicine over engineering. (http://www.apa.org/monitor/sep03/clues.html)

YES, WE HAVE A UTERUS: It's psychology, my dear boy! The atmosphere that we were raised up in that said we should be paper monkeys, we're good at English, we should be elementary school teachers. We should have jobs that give is the most flexibility for when we get knocked up and then the most time to tend to our home and family, basically, though not in those rude words. Not an astronaut (jeeze what if you get knocked up in space). Not a doctor (hospital comes first, not your baby you must have waiting at home).

WOMEN'S MOLD; "HOUSEWIFE": Granted, I want to be a housewife, I'm not a feminist, but it does sorta peeve me off when people don't realize that this is happening to the women and men (yes, you're being brainwashed to like and not like certain careers too) of our world. Just understand that you've been herded into a certain mold. If you suddenly go "Oh that's why I never fit!" Then yippie! If you do fit, like me, then please help other people who may be stuggling to fit and be giving themselves anxiety because they can't.

MANS' MOLD; "I PROMISE I'M NOT GAY": Not all accountants have to be men, women can be good at math too. And golly gee, if you're a guy who's really nit picky and you wanna be a personal assistant and follow someone around, do their laundry and schedule their life for them 'cause being a control freak makes you happy, then don't force yourself to be an accountant. Go be a PA and don't worry about the gay jokes, only you and your girlfriend need to worry about what goes on in your pants.

THE LACK OF NEED: It's social pressure like THAT that is the reason THIS group is here. Now if you don't like it, you don't have to participate. But there is enough social pressure in this world to create a lack of women to create a need for this group in the 3rd Party section. This is an odd forum that is here because of a lack of need, which is a need. We want this distro for every human, male and female. Not just 3% of women, all women. At least the 28% of women who use windows (yup of all people who use Windows, only 28% are women).

All humans. All languages. All countries. All parts in pants.

(it started getting long so I titled the paragraphs funny ways to keep you reading.)

(oh and I love gays, but the majority of hetero guys, even if they also are a okay with gays, have some odd fear of being perceived as gay. I pick on my boyfriend for it all the time. "You're looking particularly gay this evening." "What?!")

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 07:07 PM
I am not trying to say there is no need for women only groups, but if there is a need for a womens only group there should be a need for a male only group of the same kind.

I can understand the need for male only groups about prostate cancer. I can understand the need for all female groups in regards to menopause.

As for all one gender colleges I think the jury is out on the value of that, but recent studies show that both males and females do better in single sex learning environments. In today's world though it is men who suffer inequity in that area.

From what I could find there are ONLY four all male colleges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_colleges_in_the_United_States

while the list you pointed me to shows 55 for all female. In the 70s and 80s all male colleges were assualted by feminist groups and they ended up going coed for the most part, yet those same feminist groups protected the right of all female colleges to exist and promoted them. Why should men be denied that same opportunity? That is inequity. That is wrong. That is sexist.

In general if there is a gender only issue (prostate cancer) then a gender based group makes sense and is equitable even if there is no corresponding counterpart for the other gender. If a gender benefits from having a single sex organization in areas that both genders have a stake in there should be three groups -- female - coed - male -- this allows men and women to have the same choice.

While you give me examples of organizations that does not constitute an actual proof of need -- just like the Klu Klux Klan doesn't prove that we need racist lunatics running around in bedsheets.

ComplexNumber
April 6th, 2007, 07:07 PM
Like... even though Science and math aptitude is unrelated to gender (http://www.apa.org/monitor/jan06/gender.html), women aren't going into science related fields. (http://books.apa.org/books.cfm?id=4316085)except that that is a fringe opinion, dayner :). next you'll be quoting some fringe opinion that men and women have the same language ability, which isn't true. of course, if you look hard enough, you will find it. science is all about debate and contrary opinions and evidence.

in general, women/girls do have higher language skills. and in general, men/boys do have higher maths and spatial ability. note the italics
.
thats not to say that the best in the maths field are always found amongst men(marilyn von savant, anyone?) or that the best amongst the literary field are going to be women (dickens and shakespere, anyone?).

i just thought i'd point the above out, even though its not really concerned that much with the main point of the thread.

panickedthumb
April 6th, 2007, 08:30 PM
The point of this section isn't to "Segregate women into their own section." It's to show a female presence so that women will feel comfortable integrating into the community.

I'm going to just come out and say that I don't agree with a lot of what LinuxChix does for example, because a lot of it feels like segregation, but that's not what this section is about.

tom56
April 6th, 2007, 09:08 PM
PrivateVoid: I think you are trying to take the idea of equality to a ridiculous extreme to justify your arguments. By complaining about the drafting of men over women, and about all-female colleges you are setting up a straw man that bears little relevance to this discussion.

The point of the Ubuntu Women forum is that women are under-represented in the Ubuntu community, as well as in the wider context of the open source community. An Ubuntu Women forum allows all of us, male and female, to work out why this is together - and to show to women who look to open source that they will not be alone.

The reason there is no men's forum is that the arguments for the women's forum wouldn't apply. Men are neither under-represented within the community, nor pre-judged or disriminated against on the basis of their gender. Certainly there are examples in the wider world where this does occur, e.g. nannying/childcare, and I am sure that such groups (male childcarer unions) do exist for the same reasons that Ubuntu Women exists.

I'm afraid that some of the thinly-veiled sexism displayed by you and others in this thread is part of the reason for such low numbers of women in the FOSS community.

RANT OVER :D

daynah
April 6th, 2007, 09:44 PM
Actually, men do better co-ed. I'm at work now, but it's in my notes somewhere in the basement where that came from. Basically it's because they have a group to be better than. Not that I'm against an all boy's school, if I could afford it, I think I'd send my future son to one. :)

ComplexNumber, that isn't a "fringe" opinion. That (men and women having the same physical science and math ability) can be and has been proven. The reason women do not perform as well in these subjects "in the wild" and do not seek out these fields is completely social, and due to the same belief in their physical inferiority that you have in us.

We are not physically inferior. I can do the same math as you can, and you can can make the same beautiful prose that I can. But you've been raised that beauty is a woman's domain and I've been raised that the cold hard rules of mathematics are a man's domain.

An example of a way this has been studied (this is one of the few I remember from one of my many classes I've gone over this) is... Top school, I forget which one. The scientistt picks out the same number of men and women in pairs. Each pair has the same grades in their math and the same SAT scores. They are divided into different groups group. One group is given the normal "this is a standardized test" blah blah talk and has men and women in it.

In this group, the women do more poorly than the women (why? they were equally matched).

In the next group, the same talk is given, but added the sentence "This test has not been shown to have any gender bias." The women either do as good as their counterpart, but often do better (showing that their grades that were used to match with probably had been a low ball indicator of their ability).

The last time, the counter parts are split up, segregated by sex. The basic talk is given, nothing about sex is mentioned. The women do just as well as expected, but the men do horrible. Why is that? Why would they do awful if women aren't there? (see first paragraph)

The most striking thing about this was that the sentence "There is no gender bias" could make the gender bias go away! If there really was a gender bias then it wouldn't be able to go away so easily... thus the gender bias must be all in our heads.

Thus, it must be caused by things around us, not by genes.

Thus, the only way to fix it is by fixing the thinking that goes on in all of our heads.

The thinking that causes you to think that females are physically inferior in mathematics and science.

I'm going into science. I want to study stress and its effect on the body (thus all the psychology courses also). I'll get a doctorate in Neuropsychology and Behavorial Neuroscience (or just a major in redundancy, you know, whatever). I want to study the neurobiology of social behavior. But people like you keep me down.

People like you make me wonder every day why, if I'm so gosh darn good at English (and I'm good, folks) why don't I just give in, I still have time to change my major, and be a teacher. I don't have to fight it. I wont need a doctorate. It'll be all women around me. Less supplies, cheaper books. More time at home with the future hubby. People like you make me want to give up.

And then we get a safe place like this little bitty spot on Ubuntu forums, and instead of most of the discussions being us finally getting a place to talk geekiness with other girls (another thread is us girls saying "Yup, don't have another girl in the world to talk to about geek stuff save here" go look at it, pretty sad), you people, yeah, you people who make me wanna give up my dream come in here and take over this whole section.

Well then. Why don't we just close it. Us girls wont be able to tell if we're talking to another girl or not, we'll think everyone on here is a guy, and we're still the only girl in the world who likes this stuff, and we are in fact all alone. Maybe we should just start acting like a "real" girl should. English teacher, expensive skirts, nice house, talk about boyfriends (not beryl) all the time, and jeeze, just give it up.

We'll give it up, for you, 'cause you whined.

yabbadabbadont
April 6th, 2007, 10:21 PM
This same thing used to frustrate me all the time when I was tutoring kids in math. Boys and girls both, though the girls more than the boys. All I would hear is, "Math is too hard. I can't do it." It would take a while, but I usually could get it into their heads that it is only hard because society has been telling you that it is hard long enough that you believe it yourself. Once I convinced them that it is only a matter of knowing, and following, a set of simple rules, they would start to get it. Once they realized that they could do it, it became fun. (and a lot easier for me to help them)

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 10:27 PM
PrivateVoid: I think you are trying to take the idea of equality to a ridiculous extreme to justify your arguments. By complaining about the drafting of men over women, and about all-female colleges you are setting up a straw man that bears little relevance to this discussion.

The point of the Ubuntu Women forum is that women are under-represented in the Ubuntu community, as well as in the wider context of the open source community. An Ubuntu Women forum allows all of us, male and female, to work out why this is together - and to show to women who look to open source that they will not be alone.

The reason there is no men's forum is that the arguments for the women's forum wouldn't apply. Men are neither under-represented within the community, nor pre-judged or disriminated against on the basis of their gender. Certainly there are examples in the wider world where this does occur, e.g. nannying/childcare, and I am sure that such groups (male childcarer unions) do exist for the same reasons that Ubuntu Women exists.

I'm afraid that some of the thinly-veiled sexism displayed by you and others in this thread is part of the reason for such low numbers of women in the FOSS community.

RANT OVER :D

Tom56 you are so out of line its disgusting. I am not exhibiting sexism. I am asking for equity. Sure this forum is a small issue compared to womens colleges and the draft, but the fact remains that things are unequal in society -- on both sides -- and I would like to see groups solve issues for both genders not just one.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 10:31 PM
Daynah: I need some time to find it, but the latest material I have seen indicates that both sexes did better when they were in single sex classes. The study I need to find was at the elementary level -- so not sure if it applies to higher levels of education.

I am not sure why you have exploded with the idea that people don't want girls to be part of Ubuntu -- I certainly do -- I just want them to be part of it without special arrangements. I would like to make them feel comfortable to be in all areas not just ones labeled women.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 10:33 PM
The point of this section isn't to "Segregate women into their own section." It's to show a female presence so that women will feel comfortable integrating into the community.

I'm going to just come out and say that I don't agree with a lot of what LinuxChix does for example, because a lot of it feels like segregation, but that's not what this section is about.

Now that I can buy to a certain extent... I would endorse anything that makes women feel comfortable as long as it does not make others feel uncomfortable.

tom56
April 6th, 2007, 11:08 PM
Tom56 you are so out of line its disgusting. I am not exhibiting sexism.

To deny the existence of discrimination is to encourage it. I would also preceive the following as sexism:



I find it odd that people engaged in an on-line forum would run around proclaiming themselve female when they feel they are feel they need a special area to feel comfortable. On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.

Essentially you're telling people to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in. You're suggesting that this a boys' club and if women want to join then they can, just so long as you don't know they're doing it.

You seem to have an unjustified level of fear of a female community that I cannot even begin to comprehend. You think there should an Ubuntu Men group? Fine, then set one up - no one is stopping you. We'll soon see if such a group is needed based on the number who join you.

I apologise if I seem harsh, and I do believe that your intentions are good. But it is based on a false premise of there already being an equality that does not, in reality, exist. You believe that because everyone has an equal oppurtunity, then equality is the end result. Unfortunately there isn't equal oppurtunity, even if only for historical reasons (the lack of women in the community drives others away, and the problem propagates itself).



But it's too late and I'm too tired to get into further discussions about patriarchies and prejudice (Jane Austen's poor-selling follow up, donchaknow ;)).

EDIT: And now I feel really bad because your last post (#356) was so sensible

jrusso2
April 6th, 2007, 11:29 PM
All men should read this link

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 11:58 PM
To deny the existence of discrimination is to encourage it. I would also preceive the following as sexism:

Essentially you're telling people to pretend to be someone else in order to fit in. You're suggesting that this a boys' club and if women want to join then they can, just so long as you don't know they're doing it.

Err.. no. I did not tell them to be someone else. I told them there was no need to tell people that they were in a certain group -- that is a horse of a different color. I am suggesting that web forums, not just this one, are a club of humans with no need to tell us if they are female, male, brown, white, or yellow.


You seem to have an unjustified level of fear of a female community that I cannot even begin to comprehend. You think there should an Ubuntu Men group? Fine, then set one up - no one is stopping you. We'll soon see if such a group is needed based on the number who join you.

There is no need to comprehend my "level of fear" because there is no fear. What there is a need to do is understand that just because I am not aligning myself with the current politically correct discriminiation that it does not make me afraid. I simply believe that to remove discrimination that you fight to remove it everywhere not just in select areas. You do not focus on one groups plight while ignoring anothers. You should seek to address both sides of the issue at the same time - equity. You do not create equity by asking for favorable treatment for one group over another.


I apologise if I seem harsh, and I do believe that your intentions are good. But it is based on a false premise of there already being an equality that does not, in reality, exist. You believe that because everyone has an equal oppurtunity, then equality is the end result. Unfortunately there isn't equal oppurtunity, even if only for historical reasons (the lack of women in the community drives others away, and the problem propagates itself).

I do not believe there is equity. My argument does not rely on that existing. Women have a certain set of inequities and men a different set, I seek to deal with both. Women should not be degraded if they choose career over family, nor should men face ridicule if they choose family over career. Fixing both sides of that equation actually helps both genders, fixing only the female aspect will never fix the problem.



But it's too late and I'm too tired to get into further discussions about patriarchies and prejudice (Jane Austen's poor-selling follow up, donchaknow ;)).

We have all the time in the world on more days. I have to do a better job of making my position clear, because you clearly believe things that I do not stand for. I appologize for not being better at conveying my thoughts.


EDIT: And now I feel really bad because your last post (#356) was so sensible

No sweat -- human communication is 80% body language and tone and that is not duplicable in a forum.

Lets just continue to work towards understanding each other and we can then hopefully truly make a difference in the world.

With one son and two daughters I would love to see equity.

cprofitt
April 7th, 2007, 12:00 AM
All men should read this link

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

Fairly good read thanks for the link.

FrozenFOXX
April 7th, 2007, 04:44 AM
All men should read this link

http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

It's quite possible I'm wrong but in reading over that I've come to the disturbing conclusion that there's absolutely no way to NOT discourage women from Linux. Assuming you followed all the steps you'd eventually reach the point where you'd feel pretty safe you're not doing anything wrong, correct? That would lead you to the bottom about, "But I don't do that." That section pretty plainly states that you're still a part of the problem anyway and nobody's told you, that's all.


If I could get some clarification on that I'd appreciate it.

wulfhound
April 7th, 2007, 08:03 AM
Hi there,

I've seen quite a bunch of projects supporting women in different areas. To be honest I feel quite disturbed by those projects. Not that it's a bad idea it's just that a lot of these projects work in a way that is really annoying.

A lot of people that are active in such projects tend to care more about the actual person tey are talking to than the subject they talk about. I found that most of those people are like

"Uh, oh, there's a women here. We now need to play nicely, watch our speech, and because it's a woman we can't say: 'You're talking ********' when she actually does"

This is one thing that disturbs me most about these things, the second thing is that 90% of the time men start to think in these terms and that's imo the worst thing to do because (hopefully) when I say something that offends everyone can stand up and talk by his/herself.

When I talk to an indivudual I don't care what sex he or she is. I try to keep my speech at the same level they do. I try to be patient when I know more on topics, and try not to aks questions where I could find the answer myself, so that I don't start annoying other people.

So my question is why do I need to care wether I get an answer from a man or woman, or wether I answer a question.
Or in a wider view: Why should I wether it's a woman or a man.

PS: I normally don't put in this disclaimer but this is a special topic to talk on so: I'm not a native english speaker, if there is something with a really offending wording in there:

1. tell me (and pls also tell me how it's right)
2. try not to start flaming.

Maybe people watching what they say is an issue with women in real life if, say, they're in an office and you don't want to start trouble (yes, BOTH genders can be touchy about things you say to them, implicating that women are "touchy" is actually a stereotype), but this is the net. If people want to reach out to others in their own gender, that's their thing. Encouraging more women to try Ubuntu is nice.

Here's the other thing: no one knows who's who online. I am sure a lot of the people posting on the ubuntu forums are women, and you just never realize. When I say a lot, I just mean, you never know. It's not like you could tell from any of MY posts that I'm a woman.

Just my $0.02....

Sandaili

wulfhound
April 7th, 2007, 08:07 AM
I think what the OP is trying to ask is why did we feel the need to make a special place for our lady posters.
What makes them so "special" that they get their own forum. Why don't other "special interest groups" get their own forum too, then? (I want a Gaybuntu forum! ;P)

I wondered this originally but the mods posted some good reasoning for it (which is easily found since this forum is still comparitively small), and thought it was a cool networking strategy anyway.

Does that clear anything up or had you already gathered that?

And to poptones... Re: "I rarely read the name of the person who posted before": I rarely read the forum I'm in.
I use the "New Posts" button the find things to reply to. Occasionally the "Unanswered Threads".
I rarely pay attention to where it actually is.

Cheers,
- Kev

LOL...

Now I'm imagining some Ubuntu for Men forum where it's somewhat marketed like the Burger King commercials...do men actually like that kind of marketing? I personally hate where Burger King has gone (sexy women are great!!!! BUT! they're kinda creepy.....if they left out the creep factor, then looking at them wouldn't make me feel...weirded out...)

If you all want to make a men's corner I think that'd be sweet. Ubuntu for MEN, not GEEKS! LOL!!! (since people tend to think that Linux users are little twiggy nerds and whatnot)....(okay, not everyone ;) )

Sandaili

gruepig
April 7th, 2007, 09:45 AM
On-line forums do not require you to tell us your religion, sex, skin color, nationality or any other information about yourself.

True, sex/gender disclosure isn't required. But it is something that many people *want* to disclose. It is something everyone should be able to disclose, without that unduly coloring their future involvements in the community.

Like it or not, most people on the Ubuntu Forums and other Linux/tech communities are male. If a woman does not announce her sex/gender, she will likely be assumed to be a man (not just human, but a man; it's a statistically valid assumption). Suggesting that women can hide their sex/gender in order to avoid discrimination or childish behavior is effectively to suggest that women can join the community by pretending to be men (and/or being mistaken as men). In other words, one can either appear as a member xor a woman, but not both.

(Note: I've taken your quote out of context, and I doubt this is at all what you are suggesting. However, it is something that has been suggested by others in this and similar threads.)

Women should not have to pass as men to be accepted as computer geeks. Not all computer geeks are men (or women who "act like" men), and it's valuable for geeks and potential geeks of all ages and genders to have some examples and role models.

BTW, yes, I'm a woman and a Linux sysadmin. I work with many other women sysadmins, developers, and other techies. We may be the minority, especially in the traditionally male-dominated Internet forums, but we do exist.

DoctorMO
April 7th, 2007, 04:50 PM
it's a statistically valid assumption

i disagree, even if 99.9% of people are men (unknown factor anyway) and 0.1% are women, you should still treat anybody like a human being first. in regards to not having a difference in behaviour between how you treat women and men in real life if the first step towards being fair.

dinda
April 10th, 2007, 05:29 PM
I get this question very often. One of the trends that see in both Linux Chix, Ubuntu Women and similar groups is 'story sharing' of specific incidents of discrimination against women in the community or just tech in general Some examples are just bad service in computer stores, via phone support calls, IRC trolls and inappropriate comments/questions online. It's a pretty well documented trend that is disturbing. What I've yet to see is a men's group posting such stories; i.e. "I was in IRC the other day and some creep started PMing me asking what I was wearing." or just a few minutes ago in the Ubuntu women IRC channel, this gem from
"Buckminste: Lay bear thy bosoms or leave post haste!"

So I guess when we start seeing the "I just got my tech skills insulted b/c of my gender" or "b/c I'm a man they just assumed I knew nothing technical about Linux/SysAdmin/prgramming/etc." post by men then we won't need women's groups.

UbuntuniX
April 10th, 2007, 05:37 PM
The trouble with "equality" is that most people handle it with hypocrisy.

Often, on this subject, men might treat women delicately, for example, because they believe in "equality". The problem is, generally, women are still treated differently, for better or worse.

teaker1s
April 10th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Reading the last few posters, I would like to say all people with an interest in computers get equal time and help from me.

I do think from my experience of forums that politeness and manners=more help

I won't treat anyone differently because of who they are or where they come from-all I look for is polite two way communication.

I think that everyone from all backgrounds should be encouraged and helped with their computing-for me that is Ubuntu

Pro-reason
September 5th, 2008, 03:38 PM
i disagree, even if 99.9% of people are men (unknown factor anyway) and 0.1% are women, you should still treat anybody like a human being first. in regards to not having a difference in behaviour between how you treat women and men in real life if the first step towards being fair.

Any how would we go about doing that, given that there is no pronoun in English for “a human being”?

NewbieGirl
September 5th, 2008, 11:42 PM
Guys - and gals - I don't get it.... I found Ubuntu, I installed it - including on my husband's computer, I maintain it - on both machines.... In what way does a PC care about the gender of the person F*** - umm xcuse me - messing with it??

You might as well talk about women and PCs in general.... those that are afraid of Linux might just be afraid of computers.. or gadgets... or simply anything new.... but this is beginning to sound like general population - of either gender...
I don't believe in gender-related learning impairment (did I misspell it?)

Sef
September 5th, 2008, 11:47 PM
I don't believe in gender-related learning impairment (did I misspell it?)

You spelled it right.


Any how would we go about doing that, given that there is no pronoun in English for “a human being”?

In descriptive english, they is often used as singular.

Finally, Locked. This thread for necromancing.