What's needed for progression

[Arthemys]

For a strong progression of the open source community, what's required of its participants? (forum / irc users, developers, etc...) This could have been a poll, but I felt it was too open ended.

In short, I'm asking for a sort of "What do we need to form a call to arms," If that makes any sense. :P

[bored2k]

IMO the biggest impact/acceptance can be made through word-of-mouth (opensource users --> public). Lately people are just tired of ads so I don't think it would be a good idea to have "Use Open-source" banners all over, because then they would feel disgusted by this and start thinking in a negative manner. D'autre part, explaining how open.source can avoid possible legal problems to parents or just concerned human beings can make people curious about it ("Unless you have a very special writting format, there is no need to spend 250 dollars on a propietary Word processor, etc"). I just like to explain how open.source can make us avoid future problems with the law and just feeling happy because you know the author is not going berserk because people are stealing his software.

[thorN]

I think open source software will come to full strength once the hoardes of technology users in the general public start to feel the advantages.

Currently, most "home PC" users are consuming, uninformed and are basically wasting their money due to ignorance.

I obviously can't guage the opinions worldwide, but here in (moderately) socialist Britain, and especially in the lower/middle class area I come from, American style consumerism just isn't the way things are going (hopefully).

This means that everyone is jumping off the Microsoft ship - I've seen this everywhere, from the community run centres where people are freely using OSS to be more productive than companies suckered into being MS "Gold Certified Partners"

Oh yeah, and ultimately the higher quality of the software is what counts. At college, it does matter to students that OpenOffice.org can Freely export to .pdf, Firefox correctly renders CSS and that The GIMP can use .png.
And that they can do this on a £50 computer.

I know I'm not particularly coherent, but basically I think a communistic attitude will grow in the future, reaching it's full potential partly through the use of OSS.

[jonrkc]

I have really mixed feelings about it all. I'd love to see Linux and other alternative OS's (open-source, that is) start to predominate at the "ordinary" user level, but if my experience is typical,and to judge from thousands of expressions of frustrated users I've read on the Web in the past three years, I think it probably is--then it's useless to preach to non-technically minded people to adopt Linux, BSD, or anything else of that nature. And that is so sad.

On the other hand, I DO make it a habit to inform my Windows-using friends about the moral and monetary advantages of using non-Windows software. I at least try to get them to use freeware or shareware for Windows when possible, instead of the Microsoft equivalent. I even try to get them to consider going to Apple.

To make real progress with Open Source, I believe things are going to have to be made much easier for the general user. I know this is a view that elitists in the Linux community sneer at, but I believe those who sneer have not considered the practical facts long enough.

In some instances, too, Open Source software is going to need to be presented in a less adolescent way, to appeal to "serious-minded" business and even home users. It's only natural for high-school kids, who are some of the best developers, to express themselves in their own jargon when describing their software, and it doesn't put me off (I'm 65, by the way) or offend me, but it's going to make a LOT of people think twice before even trying out something packaged in an envelope of non-standard English (or French, or German...). It will make many people question the integrity of the package.

[poofyhairguy]

To make real progress with Open Source, I believe things are going to have to be made much easier for the general user. I know this is a view that elitists in the Linux community sneer at, but I believe those who sneer have not considered the practical facts long enough.


We don't sneer. Many geeks wouldn't mind a little easier to use OS. Problem is that those things cost time and money, things that are in limited supply in life. Yet its still being done (just not at the rate everyone who wants it wants).

[tread]

I agree .. anything that makes life easier is good. What's needed is a smaller learning curve .. which means trying to catch users before they hit the Microsoft level, cos its difficult to adjust to Linux after that.

Which means - more games. If kids can get their games on Linux, they will use it more .. the most frequent argument I listen to not using Linux is - but I can't play my favourite game.

Note: I am really talking only about the home user environment here ..

[poofyhairguy]

Which means - more games. If kids can get their games on Linux, they will use it more .. the most frequent argument I listen to not using Linux is - but I can't play my favourite game.


How do you do this though? We could make open source games, but they won't be flashy and heard about (aka reviewed in game magazines) and so kids won't want them. But we don't have the numbers to demand more games as a platform, they take a lot of money to port. Eventually we will have the numbers, but I don't see a quick fix for games. Afer lots of thinking, I believe that gamers will be one of the last groups to adopt Linux.

If you want to hook kids, get Linux in schools. Ubuntu is trying to do that.

[23meg]

We do need much easier to install distros that do much more "out of the box". Putting in your time and energy to improve Ubuntu or any other distro in this aspect will definitely speed up the progression.

[23meg]

How do you do this though? We could make open source games, but they won't be flashy and heard about (aka reviewed in game magazines) and so kids won't want them. But we don't have the numbers to demand more games as a platform, they take a lot of money to port. Eventually we will have the numbers, but I don't see a quick fix for games. Afer lots of thinking, I believe that gamers will be one of the last groups to adopt Linux.

If you want to hook kids, get Linux in schools. Ubuntu is trying to do that.
How do big companies get their games heard about? They pay money to magazines; both for reviews and ads. My point is: we need a number of "killer" open source apps / games that are well sponsored, thus can develop fast and get famous fast. Where would Ubuntu be today without its sponsorship? And Firefox?

[tread]

How do you do this though? We could make open source games, but they won't be flashy and heard about (aka reviewed in game magazines) and so kids won't want them. But we don't have the numbers to demand more games as a platform, they take a lot of money to port.


That is true. I wasn;t thinking of open source games really, the big names is who we need to target.

Unfortunately, there is no good example here .. Lokigames went down.
It used to be really difficult to get hardware acceleration going on Linux .. and so gaming tended to stay a Windows only thing. And partially, the blame lies with us (or at least me) .. I wanted everything free, monetarily too. I think this applies to a lot of the Linux community too. So now that I know better, well .. Loki is gone and there arent all that many games for Linux now. Running them under wine doesn;t count .. its still a windows game.

I'm rambling here, I'm afraid I can't put my finger on the exact point. But I think what I am trying to say is, if we want something, we also need to support it .. otherwise it's gonna die.

[poofyhairguy]

how do big companies get their games heard about? they pay money to magazines; both for reviews and ads. my point is: we need a number of killer open source apps / games that are well sponsored, thus can develop fast and get famous fast. where would Ubuntu be today without its sponsorship? and Firefox?

Ok. I get your point. Its just that I personally believe that any OSS project that has little business use will always have little funding for advertisement and development. Ubuntu, Firefox and Openoffice all have business (and by that I mean anything from industry to academia) uses. Games do not. Money is made by selling games not using them, so they will not the get donations/support pro-business projects will.

I mean....are you a millionare? Do you have money to be THE OSS game benefactor? Do you know anyone that does? Do you even know how to convince someone that it might be a good idea?

I'm not belittling your comments. It just that I can never ignore economic realities and OSS games are not economically viable IMHO.

[23meg]

I mean....are you a millionare? Do you have money to be THE OSS game benefactor? Do you know anyone that does? Do you even know how to convince someone that it might be a good idea?

i wasn't talking just about games but all OSS in general, games included. i'm not a millionaire, and i don't think i have to be one to suggest that the more millionaires OSS gets to sponsor it, the more explosions in its popularity we will witness.

as for games, a few good sponsored games for Linux could turn the attention of the big boys into making more pay games that run natively on Linux. i've heard people suggesting possibly interesting business schemes such as ad-sponsored open source games (how many pitch-side ads are there in the typical football game? you could fit in many); i haven't looked deep into the possibilities, but there must be some.

expecting everything for free is really a common pitfall, but let me think out loud: why is it that cooperative volunteer efforts can spawn things as huge, and hugely successful as whole open source kernels, operating systems, productivity software, but just not games? is it really all about the potential exchange value?

[NoTiG]

Just look at this thread. You people are asking yourselves ways to make linux more widespread. you WANT this to happen. Why ? i want the same thing and I don't even know. maybe we are all rebels but... I think it will happen without even trying.

Schools
Goverment
Other countries

The thing about linux is the more people that adopt it the better it will get.. its like a snowball effect. It can only get better and better and already its good enough for alot of people. Once the whole world is using linux (china + 3rd world countries) and our schools use it... why shouldn't they use it ? and if anyone says they should use windows because thats what they will use in the "real world" im going to beat their head with a stick. just think about this comment for a second:

"schools should use windows and photoshop, proprietary programs because that is what they will use in the real world. "

The reason why that is wrong is because....... one program is like another. your not teaching them To use a certain program. you are teaching them to learn how to think and interect so that they can use SIMILAR programs. its not a giant leap in logic. if you teach someone the gimp first im sure they can use photo shop later.

Second... if people start using linux / gimp in school then theres a good chance that will actually shift what the professional companies will use for their software since everybody would already be trained and it would cost them less.

But here is one thing i think ... no matter how good or even better than windows linux might be... how will it ever take over if windows has deals with the OEM's to have it preinstalled on every computer ???? It's impossible. THe whole world isn't going to buy their computer (paying for windows) then put linux on it afterwards. And when will OEM's that are not manhandled into including windows on their PC put linux on ? Here is what is scaring them:

Windows applications. THere are just so many for windows (will makers, card makers... anything you can think of) theres a program. waaay more than linux. So the only way to fix this is:

Have the latest version of wine preinstalled preconfigured on them... and make sure that it runs every windows ap (turbo tax, quicken.. all that good stuff)

Proprietary codecs. for instance windows fonts... maybe mp3, avi... . this area is getting better though. Solution:

whatever is not legally able to be instlaled by default on the desktop.. simply put a script on the desktop that the user can run which they can install after they access the internet. problem solved.

And the third big one is: DIrectX. Yes there are two ways to write games... DIrect X and openGL... openGL i think is going to be used for the playstation. John carmack said a long time ago that openGL USED to be better.. but now they are pretty similar. BUt the problem is....... as long as game companies are using directx instead of OpenGL... linux won't be mainstream........ because it will always have to emulate windows direct x.. and it will never be as fast efficient as it is on windows. and really... Gaming is what is driving the hardware business so... linux will not win the desktop until it wins Gaming.

Sry its late and i dont have time to proofread.

Edit: TO clarify my post there are basically two things that need to happen.

1. Sink money and resources into wine.. so that all aps (CAD, photoshop, etc.....) will work on linux. Once you can walk into the computer store and feel confident in buying any program for windows and be able to use it on wine/linux.. then this step has been reached.

2. GAMES. the gaming industry IS driving the hardware industry. Get gaming companies to use openGL instead of directx so that native ports will be possible. Wine/emulation is not good enough for games where performance is such a key issue. hopefully the Doom 3 engine wil have some good games made from it. The two most popular pc games are probably CS:S and WoW which are both direct x. I hear they are both playable which is good news... but im guessing performance is lower right? How do you get gaming companies to use openGL instead of directx ? Sink money/resources into openGL to make it better than directx ? Or... if linux does infiltrate schools... will that cause more programmers to use open GL for gaming ? Im not sure how to solve this one.

[tread]

Don't rely on Linux spreading in 3rd world countries .. piracy is rampant there. I come from India, and I know what I am talking about. I also have this feeling that Microsoft doesn't really dislike piracy all that much .. it gets kids hooked onto Windows, and they are the ones who will eventually make company policy decisions.

Catch them young!

[23meg]

i don't know how longhorn which will do hardware checks to ensure genuinity will fare in the so called third world, though. maybe it will still be fine with older hardware and software, but people will be having a harder time getting on with a pirated windows with new motherboards containing Fritz chips and new TC (http://www.againsttcpa.com)-enabled apps.

[tread]

Well, then we might see Linux spread further :)

Linux has a decent presence in India, but Microsoft still rules the roost. But, like I said .. things are changing. When I was in college, I remember spending 3-4 days installing Linux in netcafes .. some friends and I convinced the netcafe owners to switch from pirated windows to Linux.

[poofyhairguy]

expecting everything for free is really a common pitfall, but let me think out loud: why is it that cooperative volunteer efforts can spawn things as huge, and hugely successful as whole open source kernels, operating systems, productivity software, but just not games? is it really all about the potential exchange value?

First let me say that this is a good netversation. I have an answer to your question. Half of it is the same answer I give when people ask "how can all this software be free?"

Organizations (and individuals at a micro level) need operating systems on their computers to do things. Browse the internet to check mail and connect with clients/students/etc. or make office documents in an office program suite. Almost every business that is medium sized at least has one secretary that needs to make a text document that looks nice every now and then. Before open source software, every company had to pay MS in order to do what we now call basic computer functions that lead to productivity (I know there are other office suites besides MSes, bear with me). So in the old situation all the money went to MS (or adobe with photo programs, etc.) where they would use the money to develop a new version that you once again had to pay for.

OSS allows organizations to pool their resources together and create programs in which they invest in rather than buy. The money donated to Firefox/Openoffice/Linux is gained back when other organization's money adds to the pool and makes the software better for you. Open source software is like a pyramid scheme that works. Since every organization that uses a computer needs productive software (yet can't afford to develop the software by themselves) it benefits them to invest in OSS software that they can always use how they wish and always get the development fruit that grows from their money (while MS/Adobe/whatever forces you to rebuy the improvements your original investment in the software provided).

But games are WAY different. Games are unproductive software. For an organization that needs productivity, the less games the better. Thats why OSS games can only succeed on the small scale- whatever individual users put into them.

In summary, the difference is that the kernel/openoffice/firefox/etc. is needed anyway for productivity (so the economic world can turn) so those projects can turn into great successes. If you look at any major OSS project you will find some corporate sugar daddy (even Mark's donation to the OSS community in Ubuntu is through a corporation) somewhere. They have the money that is needed for all of the advertising/bug testing/feature adding that the best software needs. Games are only needed for entertainment. The only corporations that see a revenue stream in games are companies that make and sell them (and arcades I guess but they are almost gone). So they won't pay to support an OSS game products that are given away for free.

What games do exist exist because a bunch of hobbiests have put work into it. Some are very fun, but none are on the level of Half-life 2, Doom 3, Final Fantasy _ when it comes to graphics/testing/the things that makes games popular. None can reach the quality of the Linux kernel/Firefox/big productive OSS app. And they never will be because they lack big money backing because they are unproductive.

The economic reality is this way. Now if Linux gets a big enough userbase the games will come but I have NEVER seen a plan that can make an OSS game on the level of what is needed to switch over hardcore (even medium core) gamers.