Vista here, Xp there... may be a voice outside the chorus

[MadeR]

I see many threads against XP or Vista containing the concept "linux should be used instead because it is better than M$".

I use FreeBSD since a while and recently I approached Kubuntu (i really love kde) and I tried to install FreeBSD and [KX]?Ubuntu at work; yes XP is present on my hard drive only to play Bethesda's Oblivion with all graphic features.

Now I really do not understand the "against Vista campain".
Linux has 3 great problems, basing on my experience at work; I'll also add some examples.
Remember the idea is fixing what is not easy to use in Linux, not saying this other things work; a room is not clean is dust is under the carpet.

1) estethics: using more than 1 set of library (gtk, qt, tk, ...) really breaks estethics and usability. For example at work a girl asked me: why can't I drag and drop a file into a skype if this thing, KDE, uses the sames briks as skype? (yes she was referring to qt). Or: why in amsn the graphics are so ugly and function in a different way (single/double click), or drag and drop, copy and paste not working etc...
Beryl catches the eye, but... unless you have a graphic card driver that supports AIGLX, is it a nightmare (from a point of view of setting up an office workstation)... XGL? often graphics are corrupted and you have to edit 1k file to assemble it all.
estethics is not useful, for all, only for gain a larger user base.

2) hardware: 90% of PC in office uses a DLINK DWL-G520+ wireless card.
It. Does. Not. Work. With. ACX drivers. Period.
I tried all firmwares packed in ubuntu, the ones contained in the windows drivers... nothing, no way.
But searching for hours in a forum a solution, when you have to setup machines in a office (time critical task) is not an option.
If the solution is closed source driver, be it! Something is better than nothing.
I wish there exist ndiswrapper also for X. Many PC in the office have ATI X1650 and.... well you know. It's not "install the driver and fire X", it's "compile, download, understand XGL, preach it won't crash or crash other programs, and pray that kernel upgrade will be in number as few as possible, else rebuild the kernel module in all PC".
ease of use and install are not useful for all, only for gain a larger user base.
You can't even date to ask (or scare?) a newbie to care about compiling or reading pages and pages of howto's.

3) software: pages like this one: http://www.linuxrsp.ru/win-lin-soft/table-eng.html are gold but they are too empty. Helping Windows users migrate to Linux is also giving them tools to work as... simply and powerfully as they were used to.
Also many simple things are missing in the standard utility... "how much free space is there on my disks"? (no opening a console and typing df is not straightforward i think, not searching some utility deep in a menu).

4) Universe, Multiverse, codecs... all useful things but a bit too complicated. Yes I know, many programs can't be integrated in Ubunto due licenses too different in aim to GPL... but I wish you could see my friend's face when he clicked on a avi and I said her you have to install the codecs, but downloading them and then clicking is not enough. You have to activate the option (multiverse, plf repository) for enabling them.
She simply answered: "who uses /why use an OS where you have to get an university degree just for handling simple problems?" :D

So my idea: linux will be an alternative to windows when all of the above problems will be solved, but unfortunately, NOT NOW.

What do you think? I know in many point my words are not so subtle or "politically correct" but:
1) English is not my native language;
2) politically correctess only complicate things. if a problem exists, let's tlk about it!

[DoctorMO]

hardware: 90% of PC in office uses a DLINK DWL-G520+ wireless card.

I don't think so, no office would be daft enough to use wireless instead of ethernet for _all_ their machines; security is just too bad.

And sir I take offence at your stance, instead of posting about how your helping the developers in the kernel get this wifi card working or how your fixing the above issues your passing a complain onto unknown people who have no responsibility to make your life easyer.

Please stop moaning and do something useful that really helps, this kind of complaint really doesn't help anyone.

[tigerpants]

She simply answered: "who uses /why use an OS where you have to get an university degree just for handling simple problems?" :D


The simple reply to that is: why bother doing anything that requires any knowledge? Hell, let's just all sit about dribbling instead.

[Tomosaur]

As much as I'd like to help you out, this is almost exactly the wrong place to request such features. Developers do not read this forum (or at least, not 'officially'). If you have requests for the linux kernel, then visit http://www.kernel.org. If you have requests specifically for Ubuntu, then visit http://launchpad.net/Ubuntu.

The people on this forum are just people who use Ubuntu. They're not obligated to fix your problems, and the vast, vast majority have absolutely nothing to do with Linux or Ubuntu development.

[finferflu]

I think he was just talking against the "anti-Vista campaign", not complaining against Linux.

[Jussi Kukkonen]

I think he was just talking against the "anti-Vista campaign", not complaining against Linux.
The evidence suggests otherwise: 3 lines spent on the Vista-issue, over 30 lines spent on another why-linux-is-not-ready post (with no content that hasn't been discussed to death on this forum already -- outside the chorus indeed).

[delfick]

i would just like to say there is no need to get angry, he is pointing out valid problems with linux...... :D

smile instead :D it's less stressful :P

[MadeR]

I don't think so, no office would be daft enough to use wireless instead of ethernet for _all_ their machines; security is just too bad.

And sir I take offence at your stance, instead of posting about how your helping the developers in the kernel get this wifi card working or how your fixing the above issues your passing a complain onto unknown people who have no responsibility to make your life easyer.

Please stop moaning and do something useful that really helps, this kind of complaint really doesn't help anyone.

well I meant in our office, most of connection are wireless :)
and I posted an howto (for ubuntu dapper if I am not wrong) relating to Wifi and ACX111 using ndiswrapper.

mine is not a complain, is just a collection on thoughts about why linux is not yet a real threat to windows, unless the user is above average. :)

[MadeR]

I think he was just talking against the "anti-Vista campaign", not complaining against Linux.
Exactly.

[justin whitaker]

i would just like to say there is no need to get angry, he is pointing out valid problems with linux...... :D

smile instead :D it's less stressful :P

Agreed. I use Linux because:

1. I know how to (mostly).
2. I know that I do not want to support a company that treats me like a criminal.
3. The price is absolutely right, even if you factor in the price of my time. I spend as much time tinkering with Linux as I do trying to keep an XP system clean and sprightly.
4. On some level, I understand that using Linux is just the right thing to do.

Not because it is flawless. There are alot of issues outstanding, but in order to be part of the solution, you need to be onstage and in the chorus. :)

[MadeR]

As much as I'd like to help you out, this is almost exactly the wrong place to request such features. Developers do not read this forum (or at least, not 'officially'). If you have requests for the linux kernel, then visit http://www.kernel.org. If you have requests specifically for Ubuntu, then visit http://launchpad.net/Ubuntu.

The people on this forum are just people who use Ubuntu. They're not obligated to fix your problems, and the vast, vast majority have absolutely nothing to do with Linux or Ubuntu development.

My post is not an outcry to have problems solved.
It's just a pool of thoughts about how useful and intelligent is attacking always and everywhere another OS, when defensors of that OS could point out more than a few problems in "our OS": "they attack the shotcomings of Windows, but they do not see the 'problems' of their OS: if they are so unfair, probably what they advertise about linux is overbloated".

[MadeR]

Agreed. I use Linux because:

1. I know how to (mostly).
2. I know that I do not want to support a company that treats me like a criminal.
3. The price is absolutely right, even if you factor in the price of my time. I spend as much time tinkering with Linux as I do trying to keep an XP system clean and sprightly.
4. On some level, I understand that using Linux is just the right thing to do.

Not because it is flawless. There are alot of issues outstanding, but in order to be part of the solution, you need to be onstage and in the chorus. :)
And that's my way too.
I was only selecting a few points that could help the widespreading of linux to other users who.... how to say... need the tool for crafting, and have no will/time/experience to craft the tool, stating also that if a tool is too complicated to use, may be another more imperfect but also more simple will always have the major share.

It happened also (for example) with mac, commodore and amiga vs. pc in the '80s, price wars, am I wrong?

[picpak]

As far as codecs goes, Feisty makes it a lot easier. Double click, it asks if you want to install the codecs, install them, done.

Beryl? From what I've heard, they plan to have it installed by default. Graphics drivers will be much easier to install. Wireless tools are in by default.

Really, just wait for Feisty.

[justin whitaker]

My post is not an outcry to have problems solved.
It's just a pool of thoughts about how useful and intelligent is attacking always and everywhere another OS, when defensors of that OS could point out more than a few problems in "our OS": "they attack the shotcomings of Windows, but they do not see the 'problems' of their OS: if they are so unfair, probably what they advertise about linux is overbloated".

I can totally see where you are going with this. Many times I have felt, after a night of trying to get World or Warcraft to run, "why the hell am I bothering?" I could be just sitting down to play the game on Vista, XP, or a MAC.

I think alot of people get wrapped up in the hyperbole, and the time they invest in Linux. Linux is by no means perfect.

To which I counter: if I'm not using it, not reporting bugs, not trying to code, not somehow contributing....it won't get better. That's a tough thing to swallow, personally: putting up with buggy code, bad UIs, ridiculously convoluted ways to do things....in the end, I think it will be worth it.

I do not heed, nor pay any attention to fan boys, and neither should you. Anyone saying "Vista is the savior" or "Linux is the savior" goes into the ignore pile.

[MadeR]

As far as codecs goes, Feisty makes it a lot easier. Double click, it asks if you want to install the codecs, install them, done.

Beryl? From what I've heard, they plan to have it installed by default. Graphics drivers will be much easier to install. Wireless tools are in by default.

Really, just wait for Feisty.


How unstable is Feisty? Is it worth installing it and keep it updated?
I mean, from my experience in FreeBSD, the unstable branch is useable at home, your only concern should be to save a working kernel and it is a easy thing to do.
I "returned" to linux after many years, somewhere i have my old SUSE and Mandrake CDs, because for a while I wanted to try something new, so I used FreeBSD.
Now on my HD I have Kunbuntu 6.1, FreeBSD 6.2 and XP tweaked only to play Bethesda's Oblivion.

[justin whitaker]

How unstable is Feisty? Is it worth installing it and keep it updated?

I have not tried Herd 4, but Herd 2 and 3 were dead stable for me, just lacking in the amount of available stuff in the repos, and some odd icon errors.

[MadeR]

I have not tried Herd 4, but Herd 2 and 3 were dead stable for me, just lacking in the amount of available stuff in the repos, and some odd icon errors.
Does the unstable branch automatically upgrades from one herd to the next one?

[justin whitaker]

Does the unstable branch automatically upgrades from one herd to the next one?

The Herd releases are milestones, not separate code bases. So install one, and you can upgrade to the next one...although I saw somewhere here the current upgrade is massive (>1gb).

[MadeR]

ok I am downloading kubuntu feisty herd 4

[PrinceArithon]

As far as codecs goes, Feisty makes it a lot easier. Double click, it asks if you want to install the codecs, install them, done.

Beryl? From what I've heard, they plan to have it installed by default. Graphics drivers will be much easier to install. Wireless tools are in by default.

Really, just wait for Feisty.


You have me aching for Feisty like a homeless person does a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20......If it is that simple I'll be able to convert many people over to Ubuntu even easier now....


Also just to kinda adress the first part of this whole thread. Of course people are going to be talking bad against XP. When many of them switched from XP to Ubuntu it was like going from a horrible ex-girlfriend to a new one. So of course they are going to be slamming XP. As for Vista, many of us are angry at the non-privacy we will be getting with Vista.

Yet there is that point that focusing so much on all of this is childish, which I agree.

Aaron

[picpak]

You have me aching for Feisty like a homeless person does a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20......If it is that simple I'll be able to convert many people over to Ubuntu even easier now....

I haven't covered everything. Just go here: http://www.ubuntu.com/testing/herd4

[maniacmusician]

I'm looking forward to feisty...but I thought I'd point out that I don't think Ubuntu will ever include Beryl by default. That doesn't really matter...it is dead easy to install Beryl as long as you have an AIGLX-supported card (card with open source drivers or an nVidia card). If you don't have an AIGLX-supported card, then it'll be hard no matter what...Ubuntu can't do anything to ease that.

[MadeR]

I'm looking forward to feisty...but I thought I'd point out that I don't think Ubuntu will ever include Beryl by default. That doesn't really matter...it is dead easy to install Beryl as long as you have an AIGLX-supported card (card with open source drivers or an nVidia card). If you don't have an AIGLX-supported card, then it'll be hard no matter what...Ubuntu can't do anything to ease that.
uhm... I do not think so.
A script would solve things.
Generate the startxgl.sh file and exec in sequence the lines to compile, then install, the driver.

[Sammi]

uhm... I do not think so.
A script would solve things.
Generate the startxgl.sh file and exec in sequence the lines to compile, then install, the driver.It's exactly the drivers that are missing. Only Intel and Nvidia have drivers that can be used for Compiz/Beryl. All other brands haven't made drivers that support aiglx or even xgl, which makes it impossible to run Compiz/Beryl with a card from the producers.

[DeusEx]

regarding the original post:
I agree with points 1,2 and 3. Those are a nightmare, at least for Dapper Drake.

[RAV TUX]

moving to the windows forum

[3rdalbum]

Aesthetics is the one point that hasn't been addressed in this thread.

There is no technical reason for Qt programs not to look like GTK programs. In fact, Yellow Dog Linux makes KDE look almost exactly like Gnome, and both DEs use the same theme. Ubuntu doesn't do it this way, that's all. (maybe it should?)

Drag and drop is a problem with the X server. X only allows one type of data to be transmitted in a drag and drop event (one textual-representation of the object dragged), and this causes problems because programs have different data types. This problem requires complicated workarounds, so program developers (especially commercial developers) don't bother about implementing DND. Most Windows users don't do DND anyway; it's the Mac users who are accustomed to it.

However, it's definately possible to get DND going between a KDE program and a Gnome program. I know that you can drag a file from Nautilus to K3B, because Nautilus transmits a regular file path and K3B can understand a regular filepath. The problems arise when a KDE program transmits a URL (i.e. "audiocd://Track 01.wav") to a Gnome program, when the latter needs a filepath.

This can be solved, and it probably will be solved. Reimplementing the drag 'n' drop system in DBUS will allow multiple data types to be transmitted after a drop. For instance, dragging an image file would cause a KDE dragee to transmit the image data, a URL to the image, and a filepath to DBUS; if the dropee is Nautilus for instance, it would ignore the image data and the URL, and just work with the filepath. Or if the dropee was GIMP, then GIMP would ignore the URL and filepath and just use the image data itself.

Now, let's just hope that someone implements this, as I don't know how to program with DBUS, and it requires the co-operation of the Xorg developers.

[erlyrisa]

Aesthetics is the one point that hasn't been addressed in this thread.

There is no technical reason for Qt programs not to look like GTK programs. In fact, Yellow Dog Linux makes KDE look almost exactly like Gnome, and both DEs use the same theme. Ubuntu doesn't do it this way, that's all. (maybe it should?)

Drag and drop is a problem with the X server. X only allows one type of data to be transmitted in a drag and drop event (one textual-representation of the object dragged), and this causes problems because programs have different data types. This problem requires complicated workarounds, so program developers (especially commercial developers) don't bother about implementing DND. Most Windows users don't do DND anyway; it's the Mac users who are accustomed to it.

However, it's definately possible to get DND going between a KDE program and a Gnome program. I know that you can drag a file from Nautilus to K3B, because Nautilus transmits a regular file path and K3B can understand a regular filepath. The problems arise when a KDE program transmits a URL (i.e. "audiocd://Track 01.wav") to a Gnome program, when the latter needs a filepath.

This can be solved, and it probably will be solved. Reimplementing the drag 'n' drop system in DBUS will allow multiple data types to be transmitted after a drop. For instance, dragging an image file would cause a KDE dragee to transmit the image data, a URL to the image, and a filepath to DBUS; if the dropee is Nautilus for instance, it would ignore the image data and the URL, and just work with the filepath. Or if the dropee was GIMP, then GIMP would ignore the URL and filepath and just use the image data itself.

Now, let's just hope that someone implements this, as I don't know how to program with DBUS, and it requires the co-operation of the Xorg developers.

I'm no programmer, but I wouldn't mind seing something other than drag and drop. Some of my ill's with linux is that its the same as everything else. -the first time I saw X I thought wow - now that's simple yet powerfull. Gnome and KDE are neat aswell , but I wreckon it's time wasted by developers when things like Voice and Gesture recognition will become the norm. The typical Windowed GUI is impractical for the keyboard/mouse less environment. I'm sure that companies like Msoft and Apple already implement the next gen PC secretly in some Bill Gates Den.

Some idease include:
Symphony OS (Which I am Planning to test - I just wish it could be more integrated with the apps)
Vista (Yes I am salesman) - all Msoft has todo to make vienna's(the next msoft slicedbread) interface workable for Voice recognition is integrate the startmenu with system dialog boxes (open/save/print etc) and push developers to program the WPF way : that way UI elements can be mixed and matched between Apps and Documents ,so when you see a bar graph in an app you say something like "Grab bar graph titled XY and save to My Charts". In effect for next gen PC's 'the app' and 'the document' will be the same thing. For example : I do my finances on a spreadsheet, yet being the novice and have never seen how spreadsheet works. I talk this:
Computer:
Open new spreadsheet
Start Calculator
Embed Calculator (currently running process has already been determined by the OS)
5+5 equals
set contents to cell a1
10-5 equals (cell contents get updated)
set contents of column a to calculators answers (the column gets selected and a paperclip icon asks what you want to do - yet the defalut action was to create a new dictionary in which the contents are updated via new calculator object .answer values)


I wreckon Bill Gates is already using such a system to do his financials.