Proposal: Subforum for Advanced Tips/Users [Formerly titled "Ubuntu for Adults"] [Archive]

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 05:21 PM

Thought that tiltle might get noticed... :-P

Given the slow and unsteady progress in Debian these days, and the success of Ubuntu on many fronts, I feel I have to address this issue, with no malicious intenttions.....

I run Drake, among other systems as a viable debian based system, which releases regulary and updates well. And I've read the docs and codes of conduct and try to help and get help from forums and irc....which is where the problem comes in.

Not all users of Ubuntu are new to linux. Not all users use it because it is easy and popular. There are ideas and goals of this project that go way beyond that. But when trying to utilize the forums and irc one finds onceself bogged down in adolescent babble, misinformation, and general newbieness that tends to grate after a while.

Proposal? #ubuntu-advanced channels? A new section on the forums for advanced linux users who wish to support the project, as it seems the most viable debian based distro atm?

IN brief, a large part of the community is well served, but another sector is overlooked entirely...........sad when an ubuntu user has to go and get support from debian channels or deb central.....finding more obscure config options, talking more directly with devs or real advocates (as opposed to fanboys and fantatics) becomes a real chore as this distro reaches a wider user base... but im not sure how to go about becomiing invovled in such an effort. Ubuntu-offtopic isnt an answer..... I do feel that sections on forums and a new channel or two for people who want to power use this distro is fast becoming necessary, or if it exists, that it be more prominently displayed. Any ideas on how to kickstart some of these ideas,so people who wanna support ubuntu don't feel caught up in all the 'preciousness' ?

Looking forward to some positive feedback. I suppose if the post recieves 'you dont like it move on' or ' ubuntu rockz' feedback, that too is an answer. I'm already signed on to launchpad, but as far as community goes, that is hardly enough.....To be blunt, i avoid much of this forum which isnt the case with equally new user friendly distros.......how bout it guys?

Peace
.

jeffc313

February 14th, 2007, 05:26 PM

PriceChild

February 14th, 2007, 05:29 PM

I don't think this will, nor do I want this to ever happen.

This would only bring "elitism" in which is never a good thing. That's the end of argument, short and sweet.

Pricey

mips

February 14th, 2007, 05:32 PM

I really don't mind using debian resources, in fact I actually like them (especially the documentation).

meng

February 14th, 2007, 05:35 PM

I have heard that IRC support is not that good, but I have found these forums to be wonderful. There is the occasional puerile outburst (I wouldn't say adolescent, particularly as many members are in fact adolescents in the strict sense of the word) but in the main it's great.

justin whitaker

February 14th, 2007, 05:42 PM

I'm going to agree with Pricey on this.

If anything, the recent spate of "OMG this or that broke" shows me that not enough time and attention is being paid to bring the neophytes along.

For example: how about all of those "my usb drive has disappeared" threads? Most of them do not have a single answer. You cannot tell me that someone in this forum does not have the answer. There are some very very smart people here.

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community.

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 05:59 PM

Theres a difference between elitism and competence. Mainly , that elitism is barred from the forums because of the code of conduct. Why wade through many general and not quite appropriate sections when people want a place that has lets say ' remastering your own live cd' or compilation options?

To each his own, but this is the least useful forum i have used, and ive used forums from mandriva and PCLinuxOS to slackware and bsd....and debian is tricky because if you say Im on Ubuntu, theres usually a flame war, heh

If you like it, great, how do addtl options destroy what you like? If literal adolescents are at home here, fine.....im not an adolescent tho. I sense a certain resistance to add on to a version of an OS that is capable of providing choice, not limiting to what people feel is 'the right and only way; or envisioning disastrous outcomes to changes in the forms of add on forum sections and perhaps another irc channel....

I have seen a few distros simply post a warninng on their andvanced configurations section, or whatever title you choose....explicitly stating that most folks shouldnt try this at home, without a sense of possible consequences or getting in over ones head.

No offense, but what I see is a resistance to change and growth in some responses, rather than the signs of a distro trying to tackle a community, an enterprise and a growing community of devs and innovators.....which suprises me.

Im hoping people grasp one point thru all this ranting o mine, heh. That I'd rather stick with a great distro doing a great job for many.....rather than move onto something else...so these comments are meant as constructive......working from number of distros and as an advocate, surely people are aware there is a backlash among linux users about ubuntu......which i feel - if i could recommend places that people comfortable with debian or slackware could use as ubuntu support, might lessen the blowback that haslabeled ubuntu the dumbed down debian or the afrikan word for cant install slackware.....and assume that knocking such arguments out of the water would be a good thing for this distros continued success.

No ones removing what you like, think of it as more of an optional plugin :)

cheers

mips

February 14th, 2007, 06:10 PM

For example: how about all of those "my usb drive has disappeared" threads? Most of them do not have a single answer. You cannot tell me that someone in this forum does not have the answer. There are some very very smart people here.

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community.

The problem is it gets very tiring answering the same thing over and over and over. The issue has been dealt with many times. I would say about 90% of the questions asked here haven asked before and a solution provided.

I used to be very active in the networking section and then it just became tiring. So I started proving links to possible solutions which I still had to search for. Lately even that is to much.

Now if i spot something obvious I will just provide a link and say "Look into DNS". Some individuals will quite happily use this pointer and start searching and find a solution or hack two post together to sort it out themselves and you can see the sense of achievement once they get it working.

Others might start of on their own and get stuck but you can generally see they are trying and persevere. In this instance I will usually jump in and try and help to the best of my ability.

Then you get the guy asking something that has not been asked before and technical where he does not get a response, here I will also jump in as i see it as a learning opportunity for myself and helping someone out in the process if I do get it right.

Others like to be spoon fed to the point of expecting everything on a silver platter and then have the audacity to moan about people trying to help them but it doesn't work. The other day I gave someone a two pointers to a problem. Someone piped up that it was a pretty lame answer. The OP worked with the pointers though and solved his own problem.

The amount of help & encouragement people get from this community is far in excess of what they might receive elsewhere. Very few individuals here come across as elitist. If you tried to ask some of the questions asked here elsewhere you might just end up feeling like crawling under a rock.

This is a voluntary effort from all parties and not perfect. Geez the support here is better than most paid support I have seen.

I'm babbling. what I'm trying to say is that we are human and get tired. And when we see the same question again we just pretend we did not see it or silently hope someone else answers it.

Btw. I HATE writing documentation, but when I see something good I suggest to the poster to write a howto and post it into the relevant section but then again how many people actually go and read the howtos or the wiki or the UDSF ?

And I'm tired of people bitching about broken beta software, it's beta don't go there. How many Beryl threads here ? Beryl is Beta why are you expecting it to be stable ? I myself don't even use beta stuff as i prefer stability over eyecandy and annoying wobbly windows which adds very little functionality to my desktop.

Phew! I feel better now.

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 06:14 PM

For each of those people with a hardware or software issue, Ubuntu is not "precious": it is bewildering, difficult, broken, hard, and ultimately a negative experience.

My thoughts are that people should not be looking for self aggrandizement, for validation, in an operating system. If someone is so uber, then they should be trying to act as a guru and help out. Period. Write a how-to. Document something.

Paying it forward and back, so to speak.

If you were looking for positive feedback, I'm sorry, I can't give it. We need to be better at helping each other, not making arbitrary divisions in the Ubuntu community. >>

Many good points.... to clarify......im not advocating a real fork called Adult Ubuntu, its the same ubuntu we all use....and it isnt precous, but many of the attitudes are. That there is nothing wrong, that is the best, that it rockz....that someone with six weeks will give wrong advice to someon on forums cause they dont know but feel theyve mastered linux......which is in a sense, the very aggrandizement you are wary of.

I mentioned i submit bug reports, I also spend (spent ) time on irc helping folks configure and install.....but with 900 plus users it tends to ger real fast and blurry.....

There is no sense in segmenting a community....true.....but how does this do that? it gives people who might be 'guru' types a place to find other gurus who can help them out without the mosh pitt feel of the huge official forum......hope that clears up my intent in posting this. I say spent time on irc, because theres a lot of white noise that goes on in the name of ubuntu that may actually detract from folks getting the simple sane help they need...

To shut down options on the community (not that you guys are doing that, this is a discussion) is simply the flip side of the 'elitist; worries.......a community of fanboys misleading the new user, while driving many others away in frustration.......if , however , you are reading into my comments that i wish to use ubuntu to promote , define, or self aggandize myself, then the discussion becomes moot......because a) if i wanna do that ill install gentoo :-P and b) it would be quite easy to drop ubuntu and go to a distro that reeks of elitism, and difficulty. Did I mention, there is too much community possibility here to walk away from, in spite of a certain degree of frustration with the present status quo?

cheers

PriceChild

February 14th, 2007, 06:29 PM

If you want expert help on these forums, then post a good detailed thread, with a good title (not "omg help asap please!!!") in the appropriate section, and the best the forums have to offer will try and help. If you don't get replies then bump it after say 6 hours so a different timezone gets a look.

If we made "elite" forums... who gets to decide who gets in? How good do you have to be to get in? I regularly see people give absolutely genius replies with solutions that work perfectly on their 2nd or 3rd post.... you want to stop them coming into the "elite" section?

Pricey

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 06:40 PM

Not at all, and why call it an elite section? simply a warning that you might not want to experiment with posts in this section........no locked forum rooms imo......so no votes on who gets where......

Tucatts

February 14th, 2007, 06:45 PM

Well, I am a noob and I must say that I have been very happy with this forum. I see where the gentleman who started this string is coming from and I appreciate his comments. At the same time, as others have stated Ubuntu can be a bit confusing and so forth but I have been able to get all my various problems resolved right here on this forum. Either by a direct request or mostly by just using the search option and finding a solution that has already been posted. That is almost the greatest asset of this forum, the search option, very nicely done. Spent yesterday instead of being productive and finding business, installing 9 new patches for 5 XP machines, configuring a new counterspy update and so forth. I could have fixed a broken x server a hundred times in the amount of time it took me to mess with xp.
In short, Ubuntu is a very real option for folks like me so keep this forum going and help the noob's and this OS will continue to grow. Best one I have tried hands down and I can't wait until I am competent enough to start helping more myself.

Nikron

February 14th, 2007, 07:06 PM

Well, I have to ask then, why not just use Debian or a similar distro then? They target you more than Ubuntu does obviously. If Ubuntu simply works better, or some such reason, then if you need help you might as well put a highly detailed post in the appropriate forum..

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Debian s release cycle, the fact that a benevolent dictator for life (Mr. Shuttleworth) stops endless wrangling over releases and rules....a release scedule......in that sense, ubuntu is working better atm.........besides, i am leaning more toward an IRC answer....live online support and thought this thread might actually pull together some collaborators, for either an additional hacking ubuntu section here, an new IRC channel or both......

Its simply a matter of cutting down on wading thru alot of options that dont work so well for all concerned.......I dont think permission is required to say - begin a hacking ubuntu or ubuntu-advanced channel....but i wouldnt do it all on my own if no one wanted one or cared to contribute.....Mips, any feeback on the IRC idea? you seem to express some of the same frustrations....

Nikron.....I answered the question you had to ask early on.......your question is more of a 'if you dont like it, find another distro' which is counter productive towards people collaborating on one distro

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 07:28 PM

Glad to hear it Tucatts.....no one suggested removing anything,much less the forum, and i know it works foro many.....also congrats on the latest business productivity......Just suggested something addtl.....

cheers

Nikron

February 14th, 2007, 07:33 PM

I do like the idea however, but since I'm a noob I really can't help. I'd just visit the advanced forum to read what I can learn to do in my spare time. Wish you all the luck.

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 07:58 PM

Thats my point Nikron.....you might find some interesting things there, join in discussions etc....btw, 'noob' status doesnt last forever, before you know it, you;ll be curious about what else your buntu system can do , and maybe consider advising others newer than yourself.....

Is there a comprehensive list of all th irc channels currently running for ubuntu, btw?? maybe i havent found one already in exixtence?

dcraven

February 14th, 2007, 08:51 PM

If such an IRC channel existed, I'd probably hang out there for a bit. I have a feeling though, that it would just turn into another regular support channel. People will just join both and send the same message to both hoping to have a larger audience, and therefore get a faster response.

It's a good idea though.
~djc

Steveire

February 14th, 2007, 09:14 PM

I agree with the OP.

There are posters starting threads with the title 'Ubuntu' and content asking for help to edit their applications menu.

I read a while ago about there being two types of posters (probably an aisiu post). One type sees a thread like that and prefers to post the answer. The other type prefers to ignore the thread and let someone else give an obvious answer to the question. I'm guessing OP is looking for a community of category B posters, where discussion centres around issues that you won't find the answer to by searching these forums.

As people seem to prefer to start a thread rather than search, most topics are duplicate. A forum with less white noise would be good, so that meaty threads don't get buried. I think the forum discussion forum is the place to bring it up.

aysiu

February 14th, 2007, 09:42 PM

I've moved this thread to a more appropriate place.

I find this idea intriguing. It's worth considering, but we must also consider the dangers.

Can it be elitist? Could it turn into something elitist? There is that danger, and I think we should be aware of it.

But the idea could also have some merits. We have an Absolute Beginner section. It might be worth exploring a Cutting Edge Ubuntu section or Advanced Tips and Tricks section with a subheading like Use at your own risk.

While the setting up of such a forum is not intrinsically elitist, the existence of such a subforum within these general forums could breed elitist attitudes, especially if a new (and beginning) user happens to stumble on the advanced section by accident. I would like to think the new user would be politely directed to the appropriate place, but because of the high concentration of advanced users in that section, it could get ugly... almost like the Backyard of a month ago.

Even a reply like This forum is for advanced users. Your question about mounting Windows partitions is more appropriate in Absolute Beginner may seem perfectly innocuous to the person posting the reply but would easily come off as elitist and rude to the beginner trying to get to her Windows files.

I don't know anything about IRC, but one good implementation of this might be to create an entirely different Ubuntu Forums (I can hear the cries now "Splintering the community! Reinventing the wheel!"--all those things were said about the Kubuntu Forums when they came out, and they have not harmed the original Ubuntu Forums in any way) called advancedubuntu.com or ubuntuhacks.com. The best way to avoid what people are calling "white noise" is to go to another place entirely. And with a URL that didn't have the word forum in it, you'd be far less likely to get beginners accidentally stumbling in there.

WinterWeaver

February 14th, 2007, 09:50 PM

Well.. I'm still very very noob to Ubuntu and Linux, and I have to say that these forums was the best thing that every happened to me.

For about 5 years before I came to Ubuntu, I've tried various other distros, mainly as a hobby, and I had sooo much trouble getting started. Ubuntu and these Forums changed that for me completely. Now I'm running a Ubuntu system at home, and at work. 3 of my Work colleagues are also running ubuntu, because I was promoting it.

These Forums motivate me, and I come back every day to read. This is what a community is about. This is what Ubuntu is about, the word, the culture. It's about helping the community.
So when I see someone ask the same question, as a problem I previously had, then I will try and answer that for that person, and I love it if I get there before any of the "Elite"-users, not because it makes me better, but because it makes me feel that I'm giving back to the community which has helped me out so much.

If there is a Elite Forum and/or Elite IRC channel (or whatever you may want to call it) then, as others have mentioned, people will go and post there. Especially if they are noob like me... heck that's exactly what I did. Some of my first posts was moved exactly because of this :P

So if you really want to have a Elite question or something you want to do, then post that as a well written question, in a manner that others will know... hehe, there are many forums which I look at and go: "he? wtf does that mean.... ok I'll just move on and leave that for the Pro's"....

So basically I don't really think it's necessary. These forums are brilliant! Of course this does not mean you shouldn't try do something like this with others, on another forum or IRC channel.

Ta,

WW

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 09:52 PM

Thanks Steveire, your category B kinda sums up the frustration level atm.....but i dont think a whole nother forum is an answer....some folks have put up unofficial ubuntu forums already iirc.

I found #ubuntuforums on freenode..... a much smaller channel, where many work on this forum and described the headaches of having to remove and replace posts in a fourm this large......so the right info gets to the right users. Not being an admin, i ll take their word that it is a major migraine producer.

Even on that channel though, the whole idea of a channel for more advanced problems seems to set some people off on rants about ;'leetism' .....which is sad cause tryig so hard to be ' non-leet' as it were, is its own form of reverse leetism....didnt realize a suggestion about beginning versus advanced ubuntu use would create so much attitudinizing........

Attitudinizing btw, which will no doubt be detrimental to the distro when people consider it for small business as a windows replacement, and see the current state of affairs.....may put them off entirely on actualy buying into a supported version. Somehting to think about if a distro is to get past its flash in the pan heyday and really compete with Novell or RedHat. longterm.....

Still, if the white noise here gets too much, you may have a better shot with category B questions on #ubuntuforums......

As for me, i guess ill keep distros heavy on knowledge and light on the rant/rave factor on my production boxes and continue with ubuntu as a testing distro for the time being.....

Peace

aysiu

February 14th, 2007, 10:03 PM

I don't know any small businesses that would need advanced tips. For basic getting set up and productive, this forum can't be beat. If the business needs any more than that, they can shell out for paid support from Ubuntu:
http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid

I'm not an advanced user, so I don't know if this is correct, but wouldn't truly advanced tips either apply to all distros or be easily adaptable (at least to someone who is more advanced than I am) to any other distro?

Honestly, I don't even know what kind of advanced things you're talking about (on these Ubuntu Forums, we have HowTos on running an existing Windows partition in VMWare, backing up your entire installation to a .tar.gz file, and setting up MythTV). What kind of advanced things are you talking about? Would there be anything on the Gentoo forums that you'd say, "It's a shame I can't adapt that to Ubuntu because I'd need an advanced Ubuntu user to explain how it applies to Ubuntu"?

By the way, your rant about people going off on elitism being "reverse elitism" doesn't make any sense. People who don't like elitism aren't saying they're better than you. They're saying they don't want to encourage elitism. I have seen plenty of elitists say they're better than other users, though--smarter, more capable, whatever.

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 10:39 PM

Man the traffic is fast in here....i thought i was answering one person and when i finished there were two more replies.....my sympathies to forum admins and moderators....heh

I am fully aware that one of ubuntu's main goals/targets is to get people with no linux experience onto a better alternative than windows and to provide them with the freedom and opportunities of the Nix world....

But why a request for a section or part of a section devoted to advanced configurations or writing your own scripts or setting up a server farm or ...you name it, should set a bunch of folks- usually self professed new users or beginners - off bandying about the word elitist, and setting 'advanced users' in quotes, and picturing all black or white scenarios where it has to be LEET USERS versus ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS which will set the ultra sensitive into tears is really beyond me. So is the fact that with a distro like Ubuntu, where one of its other main goals is enterprise linux, people think companies should just shell out the bucks or shut up.

I deal with too many businesses, and as an advocate of OSS, it does more harm than good to think 'why cant they just buy it and be done with it.' Maybe they want to test the community version before signing that contract? Maybe their sysadmin is running debian and sees benefits in switching to ubuntu? maybe they care less that it rocks and more about how easy an upgrade can be from one release to another?

I wont even get into how reverse snobbishness is as great an evil as snobbishness if it isnt already grasped. Maybe the following link will provide some background:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handicapper_General

As you can see, its neither elitism or a rant per se.......a complaint perhaps. See also CS Lewises 'Screwtape Proposes a Toast' for a great explanation of why education in the US is failing miserably because it applies the lowest common denominator of the barnyard mentality to educational institutions....regardless of student capacity, knowledge, achievement or ability. It seems, with ubuntu, it always comes down to 'other linux users hate us because theyre elitist' which makes as much sense as the US saying the world hates us because of our freedoms. It may be simple and comforting but it doesnt address the root cause of why such a great OS gets such mixed and often hostile reactions. Maybe its time a great number of ubuntu fans realized we have met the enemy, and it is us?

If that seems to be a rant, then you havent been around much true ranting is my guess...its called discussion and debate.

Peace

hypersonic5

February 14th, 2007, 10:42 PM

I'm not sure about having an "advanced user" section as I agree with the others that it might foster elitism, but I think the forums could use a "highly technical" board for serious discussions and the like.

aysiu

February 14th, 2007, 10:45 PM

If that seems to be a rant, then you havent been around much true ranting is my guess Guess whatever you want. You have no idea how many rants have crossed this forum.

You are ranting. I've taught in both public and private schools in America, and these forums are nothing like the "it'll hurt Joey's self-esteem" coddling that's prevalent in schools today. Maybe you don't see these threads because the moderators close them or Jail them too fast, but we get plenty of people who require so much ego stroking (different from hand-holding) that even we "reverse elitists" can't take it any more.

Unfortunately, in America, there aren't many alternatives (whether in the public or private spheres) to grade inflation or "self-esteem is all that matters" approaches to education. Fortunately, however, there are many places for advanced Linux users to learn tips from other advanced users--that is not the goal of the Ubuntu Forums.

As I proposed before, it may be best for Advanced Ubuntu to be its own forum. Or, as I suggested before (but you have not addressed this yet), what's wrong with advanced users getting help on the Gentoo forums or some other forums targeted at advanced users? Is it that difficult for advanced users to translate emerge to apt-get or su to sudo?

mephisto786

February 14th, 2007, 11:08 PM

Given that emerge is a version of bsd ports in gentoo form, and apt is, well apt? yes. there is something very wrong in going to gentoo for help with advanced apt configuration. What didnt come across in your previous post for me (and given the hi volume, i may have read too fast) was that you thought maybe a whole other forum would be a better idea....some felt that it was the opposite, a fragementation... I can see your point now , given the parameters of this forum as you laid it out that it might be the only solution....

What does not quite get addressed tho, with linux in general , is a refusal to stay out of judging another's distro, so many get flack going to another distros forums et al and in many, many cases? the hardest hit are ubuntu users who may like the distro because it does its job and does it well, but has become a distro many love to hate because it is seen as being 'dumbed down.' Running it may disabuse people of that idea, but if they have no place to go for advanced useage of what is essentially a derivative of the 'difficult and advanced' debian, they will get caught in flame wars and be told to get off the 'newb distro' and onto a real distro. My question remains: Is that all Ubuntu is designed for and / or is capable of? Or is it possible the community does itself a grave disservice by limiting its public image to exactly that. That and no more?

Btw, telling me I'm ranting might be considered offensive , and therefor in breach of the Ubuntu Code of Conduct... :-P

To be blunt, if I didnt find value in this distro I would't spend even half this much time in thrashing this issue out here. It's so much easier, if kudos is what someone wants, to simply hang around a gentoo room and make ubuntu jokes. For those, at any rate, that think they raise themselves up by putting others down. The intent of starting this thread was not to be part of a problem, but part of a solution. No distro is perfect, so such debates remain, imo, somewhat necessary.

cheers

PriceChild

February 14th, 2007, 11:47 PM

Btw, telling me I'm ranting might be considered offensive , and therefor in breach of the Ubuntu Code of Conduct... :-P

Personally I think that this comment was not needed and in extremely poor taste.

However If you feel that any member (inc. staff) of these forums is violating the Ubuntu CoC or Ubuntu Forums CoC then please don't hesitate to report the post or bring it up in the Resolution Center.

seijuro

February 15th, 2007, 12:08 AM

I agree with both sides of this debate though I do think perhaps the idea presented by the OP would be better implemented as an IRC channel than an added section to these forums for the reason I will mention in a minute.

On the one had I really see where the OP is coming from that some users who have been around Linux a long time may want somewhere to gather to solely discuss such things as advanced scripting, custom compiling, kernel/module/software hacking, possibly even independent developer issues (making games, new software ideas etc). Personally I'd be very interested in a place like this and be willing to contribute/hang out.

On the other side of the coin I have to agree that in general terms a gathering of advanced users can easily and has a high probability of becoming elite even when that is not it's original intention. Because of the aim of Ubuntu and these forums I think this sort of gathering place is too dangerous to be implemented here. Dangerous in the sense that in spite of all the best intentions newbies will undoubtedly pop up asking the same old questions and the responses they may receive from such a group. Dangerous in the sense than in spite of all the best intentions a homogeneous group has strong tendencies to reject outsiders which could easily lead to elitism when it is a group of advanced users or even produce a situation misunderstood as elitism and cause intense friction in the community.

mephisto786

February 15th, 2007, 12:49 AM

to each his own Price.......it is a remark that could be taken as offensive and derogatory if the meaning of rant is the webster definition..... but it would be even more childish and egotistic to take a simple remark and file a complaint.....

im assuming you think it makes light of the Code? It could be quite an offensive comment to some, and that code of conduct exists to keep everyone in check but there is no need for scouring posts looking for proofs to indict people in what might become spirited debate....the smiley merely emphasizes that im not taking offense but that someone could and that its a light rebuff and not a theat to take action....no offense meant to code or poster.....

"disagreement is no excuse for poor behaviour and poor manners. We might all experience some frustration now and then, but we cannot allow that frustration to turn into a personal attack. It's important to remember that a community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one. We expect members of the Ubuntu community to be respectful when dealing with other contributors as well as with people outside the Ubuntu project with users of Ubuntu."

Though I signed the code, I'm sure I have occasionally strayed outside its boudaries as well.......does that clarify the comment?

dcraven

February 15th, 2007, 05:11 AM

Ugh.. Only in the Ubuntu community would this be such a big deal. Suddenly I've lost interest in the idea :).

Cheers,
~djc

mephisto786

February 15th, 2007, 11:34 AM

Heh, that makes two of DJC....... :-)

cheers

Steveire

February 15th, 2007, 06:33 PM

Well let's leave behind the issue of the code of conduct, and perhaps split it from the thread to get back on track.

I don't think an elite forum is being requested at all. I think what's bein requested is a forum in which the same questions are asked all the time, stock answers given, and a few smilies posted.

I think a forum without that is what is being requested. Think of the qualities of a mailing list in a forum - without the lollercons. No white noise.

I think it might work as a general forum most threads in it would be equally suited to another forum on this site. The only thing would be that they do not come up every week. Topics of the type that do come up regularly could simply be moved into the right forum.

There's been some really good threads in this forum (http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=32&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1). It fairly low traffic, and there are some really experienced UNIX/Linux posters there. Advanced questions get advanced answers.

mephisto786

February 15th, 2007, 08:35 PM

Steveire,
Thanks for getting back to my main intent....tho i get a bit confused by the word forum, as opposed to section or thread....maybe folks thought i meant changing this forum (as in the entire collection of threads, sections, rooms, topics, areas, call them what you will) when i meant an advanced questions, advanced answers 'section' to this forum as a whole. A place to jump directly to when you know it is not an average problem with a sticky posted solution, or when you want to try and fix your onfiguration for a very specialized reason or problem, or wanna get creative and remaster an ubuntu live cd....you might go directly to the section Steveire described above.

May I suggest not splitting the code of conduct diversion ? im sure there are pages of discussion on it, and it doesnt warrant much continuation here...imo. I also checked the list of #irc channels via the ubuntu forums and home page and there isnt really an irc channel for such either.....tho there are offtopic, ubuntu women, etc. It was a suggestion/ request...but if it flies that much in the face of general consensus, theres always ubuntux forums, an unofficial space that may have more freedom and leverage to bring up advanced questions and answers....without accusations of elitism.

http://www.ubuntux.org/

Being unofficial might provide more room for diversity....i guess time will tell.

cheers

Steveire

February 19th, 2007, 06:41 PM

So has this been put to rest then?

aktiwers

February 20th, 2007, 03:10 PM

I must agree with mephisto786, that this is a good idea.
Why not?
Okay I probably wouldn't have enough knowledge's (cant even spell it?) to join in on the conversations, but I would enjoy reading them.

I think mephisto786 is right when he says that it will bring more people to the community. Also I think more advanced users will show up, and I see that as a good thing. More people to help newbies, more people to work on Ubuntu and more people to the community.

Also I think it could erase the whole >>ahh ubuntu, the african name for " cant install debian"<< thing, or atleast make it better.

Just my 2 cents..

mephisto786

February 21st, 2007, 02:20 PM

Thanks for your two cents. You'd be surprised at the number of people using ubuntu and not being vocal about it cause of the "cant install debian' slurs...in todays news, Eric Raymond officially dropped out as a Fedora Dev and is trying Ubuntu out.

That stems in large part from what Ubuntu offers, as a community, and yet most people who have it installed with other distros don't bother all that much with its forums or irc channels because of the afroementioned clutter and white noise, and demands for ,,,,as someone put it ,,,,more than just hand holding. They want something fixed and they want it now often leaving more experienced people exasperated and burnt out.. Just the other day on a channel i got an uboto warning to remain on topic. Problem was, I was taking about apt-get....?!

I think a large part of the silent ubnutu users reticence and much of the burnout for forum admins and channel ops might actually be alleviated by places or areas where they can hammer out the problems they are having without all the attention that many new and sometimes panicked users seem to be having. Ubuntu grew out of Debian (to address a need that Debian was not meeting, if not several needs) and now, it just might be time to entertain the thought that just as experienced ubuntu users and developers grew from their own 'newb hood' in linux that some more growth towards a larger community with a wide range of experiences might be just the thing.....

Question is, is anyone willing to collaborate on either a new unofficial forum, or help run an irc chat.....the topic has been talked to death. If anyone is interested in somehow addressing this,..and brainstorming ways around the impasse that some face now, i suppose now is the time to put forth ideas, and see where that leads. As mentioned earlier, perhaps another forum entirely, but -as far as i know - no one is stonewalling an ubuntu (*buntu of all flavors) advanced irc chat......

Any suggestions besides the aforementioned?

teaker1s

February 21st, 2007, 02:46 PM

Regarding the very first post and posters in this thread-I'm not looking for infraction points so please alter/delete if not suitable.

The forums try to be all things to all people and I see people trying to move the goal posts in respect of advanced support/elite. Now as I see it the forums provide excellent free support via the community and there are various reference document sources.
If an advanced technical question goes unanswered on both ubuntu and debian then maybe it's time to find an alternative method or pay for support if this is mission critical and required in a timely manner.

Second part of this is as has been proved by a recent departure from the forums of someone who had a good project, but talked down to people and lacked social skills-Do we really want to move from a family feeling where everyone is equal to a situation were people may be feel inadequate.

reminds me of my first redhat linux experience:(

Steveire

February 21st, 2007, 08:48 PM

I don't like this getting back to 'A forum for the elite' personally. Most posters here wouldn't particularly like elitism and pretentiousness.

I also don't think it's a good idea to start *another* *new* *forum*. Ubuntuforums is run very well, and there are knowledgeable posters about. I don't think many ubuntu/other distro developers post here though, and if they do, I doubt they're replying to 'How do I get My Documents from my windows partition' or 'How to play mp3s...???!!! :):):)'

It seems to me that a new forum would fit into this site*. You can ask for support there, and if it's a common problem, the thread gets moved to General support or whatever. No white noise.

What needs to happen is a clear definition of what the scope of such a forum would be, whether/why it is needed, and if it would attract posters who do not want to sift through noise. Also, some way to dispel this notion of an elite forum seems necessary.

* For clarity wrt mephisto786' previous point,
site is ubuntuforums.org containing forums,
forum is anything with forumdisplay.php in the url containing threads,
thread is anything with showthread.php in the url containing posts by users.

teaker1s

February 21st, 2007, 09:26 PM

mephisto786

February 22nd, 2007, 12:56 AM

I agree, the preoccupation with elitism is out of place and a diversion...at some point, if such a section were included, it might be something like Advanced Hacks and Tricky Configurations....but no doubt there is something not PC (politically correct) for many even using those words.

When I want my system running smooth and stable, tho, i would only have myself to blame if went to such a section thinking it made me some kind of hacker or elite ubuntist....but there are enough people out there who might wish to try things like chrooting, emulating, remastering ubuntu cds for various need, pushing a testing release to the limits to help track bugs, booting a poor man's ubuntu install from flash drive, recompiling a kernel......and there would be a place they could go directly. I also noticed the thread about a forum ambassodor to the dev team, somewhere round here.....again, this might prove helpful to that project as well. It could be a place whose very name warns us not to try these things on your production box, while inviting devs to have a place where they can see how things are running (or breaking?) and why.... If Ubuntu is an everyman's distro, that covers a lot of ground.....I spent a couple of hours the other day wondering why I was going thru dependency hell trying to install gcc and related compiling tools to drake. It would be a good place to ask such a question and it might even prompt people building and working on the distro to figure where the problem lay....the repos atm, the LTS upgrade defaults, whatever......like othes pointed out, you end up googling to what are often very non supportive sites when problems arise, rather than 'coming home' as it were......

I dont think its rocket science to come up with a name people can live with for more complicated distro solutions, questions and configurations. One of the main complaints I hear, which is annoying when you are trying to advocate a really universal OS like ubuntu , is that, 'it gets boring'.....knowing the work that goes on behind the scenes and the complexity of the underlying debian roots of this OS,,,,i know that's not true. Letting others discover its not true is the main aim of any hackish or 'advanced config' section on these pages.....

cheers

Velvet Elvis

February 23rd, 2007, 03:38 AM

This (and a buggy savage driver somewhere along the line) is why I went to debian. I was just checking in to see what the community response was to ESR's defection and saw this.

I've been running linux on my desktop since 1996. I started with slackware, moved to Ubuntu when Slackware dropped Gnome and moved to debian around the time of x.org 7.0. I've got the obligatory geekshelf full of O'Reily books that I never use because man pages /usr/share/doc are easier. If I post on a forum it's because I either a). have exhausted the resources I have at hand, or b). am working against the clock and don't have time to figure it out. That means I wouldn't have time to deal with well meaning newbies taking their best guesses. No offense, but that gets really old. I do freelance geekwork. Paying for support is out of the question. With no formal training and more and more IT jobs being outsourced overseas, it's getting harder and harder to make a living this way.

The root of the problem here as I see it is a failure to address multiple usage cases. Now is probobly about the time that IT managers are going to feel safe installing the LTS release for the first time, so there is going to be more of this kind of thing. The solution would be to directly address additional usage cases that are currently neglected. A section with subheadings for topics dealing with professional use is what's needed. This would of course imply a greater skill level but that difference would not be the focus. The focus would be the setting in which Ubuntu is used. Example subheadings could be: sysadmin, developer, graphic design, multimedia and audio, etc.

Keep in mind that professional users are the ones most likely to create custom modifications and donate their code back to the community. They also know how to file proper bug reports. These are the people you want to lure to your platform. Admitting that they have unique needs and seeing what you can do to meet them is how you go about doing that.

Steveire

February 23rd, 2007, 12:24 PM

education of posters to check forums and documentation before posting-would help as some seem totally unable to search forums or google their problem first.-Would cut down some of the questions repeated

I'm not sure it's about education.

People like to post questions to forums rather than search.php or google, whether it's been asked before or not. New users especially like hand holding.

Other people like to post answers to such questions. Over and over again. They like to 'get there first'.

Ubuntuforums makes this possible, and there's no reason to change that.

I'm in another group of people who considers the above to be noise. It could be room for another forum. Although I haven't seen much support for the idea, or a post from a decision maker. Maybe it's considered a bad idea, and no matter what the title is, it will look elitist. That could cause problems.

aysiu

February 23rd, 2007, 01:31 PM

I think it should be another forum.

Seriously.

ubuntuforums.org, for better or worse, is focused on trying to help new users.

If you want to create a new forum called ubuntuprofessional.org, go for it. It can have forums for enterprise, for advanced users, etc.

apjone

February 23rd, 2007, 01:35 PM

maybe if we set something up like

http://alpha.qunu.com/index.html

that may be good.

PriceChild

February 23rd, 2007, 01:46 PM

maybe if we set something up like

http://alpha.qunu.com/index.html

that may be good.irc?

AlanRogers

February 23rd, 2007, 01:56 PM

Well, I am a noob and I must say that I have been ... able to get all my various problems resolved right here on this forum. Either by a direct request or mostly by just using the search option and finding a solution that has already been posted.... and therein lies the root cause of the problem.

Too many people find these fora and sign up merely to post a question that they basically can't be bothered to search for the answer to themselves, usually arriving here via Google (http://www.google.com) or similar. It's indicative of today's spoon-fed society where people don't actually WANT to learn, they want it done for them.

The above poster is, so far as I can see, of the same mind-set as I am; trawl for it first and post only if you can't find it. You may still be pointed at a link to a previous thread but at least it started with a Search, not a Help Me Post!

That's the root cause of the problem but, short of flaming them which would destroy the good reputation of this forum, I don't know what the solution is. You can lead people to information but you can't make them read it.

23meg

February 23rd, 2007, 02:04 PM

ubuntuforums.org, for better or worse, is focused on trying to help new users.

That's seen as the core of the problem, as far as I can tell. Since its name is Ubuntu Forums, not Ubuntu Beginner Forums, and it's the biggest Ubuntu forum site, and the only official one, it's expected to cater for users of varying skill levels.

I think this is quite a valid proposal, and depending on how it's implemented and used, can be a valuable addition to the forums.

My line of thinking here is: the Absolute Beginner forum exists as a place for beginners to ask pretty much every kind of question. It's a forum section meant for a specific group of people, unlike the other sections, which are meant for specific areas of operation, such as specific hardware configurations (PPC, AMD, x86-64) or specific use cases (Education and Science, Programming, Multimedia and Video). Had the beginner forum not existed, the questions asked there each have their places to which they'd go to in the rest of the forums.

Similarly, a "Technical Users" section can be another one based on a specific user group.

Nobody jumps on the beginners that ask the same questions over and over every day "you newbie, go and RTFM". Instead, people patiently help them. I frequently answer questions in that forum and haven't even once seen a user talk down to a well intentioned beginner. That's one of the big upsides of this site.

Similarly, nobody should talk down to advanced users for needing help on advanced issues.

mephisto786

February 23rd, 2007, 05:00 PM

Similarly, nobody should talk down to advanced users for needing help on advanced issues.

Some of you might want to look at the Suse forums run by invision board.......its an interesting mix of beginners to enterprise, with all ranges in between.....

So its either a new forum....which has not been dismissed, should folks be interested in setting one up....or the standard and official one here.....? I will point out a problem, in additiion to some of the good points posted above. concerning 'unofficial forums' or unofficial anythings for that matter.

I just downloaded nUbuntu, the 'buntu based pen test distro. In a word or two? poorly realized, poorly supported, shut down forums and no resorurces to test this unofficial product - gives a bad name to things unofficial, and can, by extension, smear ubuntu in general, imo.

Open Source is about choice, and the freedom to make a pen test distro is one of the perks of FOSS......but it is such an unofficial offshoot that it amounts to a waste of time and all google requests ask " DO YOU MEAN UBUNTU? And its one of the few things that dont show up on the search functions here.......maybe by keeping 'advanced users' and techies in the fold this would spur growth, not half realized projects? The one in question is listed somewhere on Ubuntu's site as an unoffficial derivative, which led me to take the plunge.....after all, ubuntu found my wireless card and connected with nary a hitch. Would be nice to have a place or places here to connect to and get consensus and help on a linux phenomenon which can only get bigger. A distro already competing on the Enterprise front and lookng to recruit more talent to futher its numerous goals.

For those paying close attention to the ubuntu business model, its community and its backers, i find it hard to imagine such resistance, or as the previous poster put it so well, talking down to advanced users and sending them into an unofficial netherworld coming from canonical or the dev teams. Mark Shuttleworth was not an evangelizing 'newb', but a Debian dev. With plans far beyond bringing new users into the fold. That is a major point of this distro but not the only one. FYI, the tone on Kubuntu forums is a bit more staid and beginner to advanced friendly, but from what I can see, even that forum was controversial when first proposed. If an Enterprise/Techie/ Developers/ forum - ie 'advanced' meets similar resistance, one wonders whether to keep on with trying to rally nix users who want more to do something official...unofficial.....or just wait for Debian Etch to get released so folks can move on. Maybe a poll is in order, since there seem to be a number of different user groups participating in this discussion? In brief, I just dont know why taking ubuntu further must be an 'unofficial' and unsupported option.....But we can talk ourselves in circles at this rate, or we can take an action.... what about a poll of forum users.....a procedure and plan of implementation amenable to most if not all users, and a way to keep all of us official.......if the devs, techies and enterprise users, and pen testers can come here, they are more likely to help out on other sections. Should they get to impatient with new users? They will be pointed to the forum rules and code of conduct...and their comments moderated or removed ..which :( does give the already swamped moderators even more to do,,,,,but perhaps this would also bring in folks willing to help moderate, edit, and help out?

For those who agree with my main point....maybe we should look into irc and forum options, start a poll here, propose feasible options..... the Suse forums seems to do rather well handling all the above user groups under one banner, without people of any background being scared off......or at least it was last time i checked, round the time of the Novell . MS deal....*cough* ahem. Plan of action anyone? Perhaps discussing this with the Kubuntu forum as well? signed,

open to suggestions,

cheers

Velvet Elvis

February 23rd, 2007, 06:24 PM

Heh. On the suse forums they don't crap for using proprietary forum software either. Or maybe they just delete it as soon as it pops up. I do have to give ya'll credit for keeping this thing going on vb. I'd have migrated to fusetalk with this kind of load.

I fail to see how it's in the best interest of your community to turn away the people who have the most to offer. The anti-geek sentiment seems to have grown a lot around here. It's really bizarre and very counterproductive.

mephisto786

February 23rd, 2007, 08:38 PM

As for the anti-geek sentiment, I don't see that as laid out in the site itself, which is billed as

<<Web forums

We'd like to thank our volunteer community members who run the web forums devoted to Ubuntu.

The following web forums provide an excellent place for you to meet other Ubuntu users and developers. They are a good way to find out more about the Ubuntu community without subscribing to high-traffic mailing lists and cluttering your inbox.

We ask you to observe the same Code of Conduct on these forums as you would on any Ubuntu list or site. >>

So I'm not sure at what point the forum became first and foremost a new user site. I thought thats what the absolute beginners talk section was for. Which excludes pretty much everyone who knows their way round ubuntu......and yet we're worried that an experienced user section would drive people away?

/me looks around for any devs and other plain old users...... :-P

T2R1T1R2

February 23rd, 2007, 11:16 PM

Hello all,
This is my first actual post on the Ubuntu forums, but as many have said, I find this forum invaluable when I get stuck trying to figure out some new and interesting way to make my poor computer have seizures. I've only been using linux for about 6 months, but within 3 days had converted both of my computers to linux only boxes. I think I did it so that I could no longer just reboot into windows and find the "easy way" out. I personally like having the ability to constantly change my system and fix minor "problems" (which most likely wouldn't have come up if I hadn't messed with it in the first place). That being said, I thought of something that made me register and come back to this post. This is supposed to be a community. In life, very seldom would you try to enter a community without knowing someone already in it. Whether you were forced to know them (from work or school or ....) or previously knew them, you would still most likely be able to find someone to help ease the transition between you previous community and the one you find yourself in. Why not create some form of "buddy system" for newbies. I had the bonus of knowing someone who had been running linux for about 10 yrs when I made the switch. I realize that this would require established users to interact on a regular basis with people who have no prior knowledge of anything but microsoft programs, but it would also create even more users able to assist others. Just a thought.

mephisto786

February 23rd, 2007, 11:49 PM

Great thought, and part of the whole concept of 'ubuntu' ...."A person with ubuntu is open and available to others, affirming of others, does not feel threatened that others are able and good, for he or she has a proper self-assurance that comes from knowing that he or she belongs in a greater whole and is diminished when others are humiliated or diminished, when others are tortured or oppressed." *Desmond Tutu)

.....Question is, how to implement the idea. I know that kubuntu forums has added a feature where users can award kudo points to people who have given them a correct, clear answer in a proper manner.....not a perfect system, but one might - notice the might- guess that the more points a poster has racked up, the more satisfied and happy the qeustioners were with that persons help. Its not perfect but could help newcomers to find more seasoned users to buddy up with?

cheers

yigal.weinstein

February 24th, 2007, 03:33 AM

mephisto786, I believe you have raised an incredibly valid point in this . The forums are becoming a mush pot of mostly neophyte fear, "my laptop is broken" etc.. This is not very practical, and I am glad that at least people are thinking what a solution to, at least what I see as, a dilemma of a good idea that may have grown to fast called Ubuntu.

I certainly do not have an immediate solution but I will think about it and am eager to see what other's ideas are concerning this problem.

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 08:00 AM

thanks for your reply yigal......fear seems to be a primary stumbling block on a number of levels and i look forward to hearing from people willing to gamble a little time energy and thought into making all sorts of ubuntu users feel at home, not only recent converts......as i mentioned before, kubuntu is quite helpful, and official in its way, and ive been posting with them whether they would like a bit of desktop agnositc / advanced hacks section to promote the ubuntus as a whole........Some of the latest feedback here makes me feel maybe im not wasting my time after all in conitnuing to plug an idea that seems to frighten people off, so they call it ranting and raving and elitist....i think the definition of ubuntu by desmond tutu says it all......im not afraid if youre more knowledgeable than me cause you learnd from someone someone and i learn from you and can pass it on to someone else.....

the only thing i do fear atm , is the cult of mediocrity that can result from so much elitephobia and a false sense of equality. In vision the blind man is not equal to the seeing man...he may howerver, hear better than the seeing man. we all come from who we are as a communnity.......as always , welcoming ideas, and views on a matter that seems to strike a chord.......It is quite easy, if one didnt care at all about the ideals behind this distro to just write off all of this and move onto somthing more , erm, compatibe to experience and knowledge levels....Prolem is, that is not a community, nor is that 'ubuntu' - thats called a clique. Community requires a bit more work to pull disparate pieces together and make a whole greater than the sum of its parts.

peace

peace....

PriceChild

February 24th, 2007, 08:49 AM

.....Question is, how to implement the idea. I know that kubuntu forums has added a feature where users can award kudo points to people who have given them a correct, clear answer in a proper manner.....not a perfect system, but one might - notice the might- guess that the more points a poster has racked up, the more satisfied and happy the qeustioners were with that persons help. Its not perfect but could help newcomers to find more seasoned users to buddy up with?We will not be implementing this.

There is a closed thread in this subforum on the subject.

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 03:59 PM

I wasnt really saying it should be added here, just one way that one forum came up with, for a possible variety of reasons, including to urge folks to help users by answering their questions. Given the size and traffic here, I dont know if there would be any point.....thanks for the link though, i hadnt seen that post yet.

My point, atm , is that we can all talk, but if some usrers want other or additional features, it goes beyond discussion at some point toward brainstorming, consensus , options and venues......In reality, I don't know if any kind of buddy system per se would be do-able, rather merely thanking yigal and others for ideas....

Cheers,

T3h_Dohtem

February 24th, 2007, 04:25 PM

23meg

February 24th, 2007, 05:01 PM

This is one of the best forums I have ever used, there are excellent guides on some of the distro specific issues and it is easy to search and find any solution to your problem, or any tips for your tools. Why would we want to separate the knowledge from the general forums? Knowledge accumulated over a long term can only be found with a forum search, not by scanning hundreds of index pages top to bottom, and a new forum doesn't separate the knowledge available. Anyone, not just experienced users, can still find it with a forum search.

It is not hard to find OR start a serious topic on advanced linux use, there are many out there already. The only thing you would accomplish is to separate the knowledgeable people from the rest of the users, and criple the backbone of the support network. The point is, due to the popularity of Ubuntu among those new to Linux, questions of an advanced nature are fewer in number than intermediate and beginner questions, and since they can only receive attention from a small group of people, they can get buried pages behind in the general thread indexes easily. A separate forum would let experienced technical users focus on such queries easily by just visiting that specific subforum.

Does the Absolute Beginner Talk forum separate beginners from the rest of the forums? On the contrary, it gives them a sense of belonging.

It goes against everything that I see the open source community standing for. We are a vast array of people working together with our individual talents to make things better for all. On top of that, the whole idea of a forum is for ANYONE to be able to read and comment, or ask questions and to better themselves through shared knowledge.Anyone will still be able to read and comment. It's just that the threads will be started by more technical users, similar to how threads in the beginner forum are started by beginners, but get attention from people of all skill levels. It's just that you're not expected to start a thread on advanced iptables configuration or setting up a server in the beginner forum.

Ubuntu for Adults? The only people I have ever seen trying to separate themselves as "adults", are children.It's not a good name and won't be the title of the subforum in any case; I don't think the OP meant it that way either.

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 05:31 PM

r, the title was meant as a teaser.....? As in Adult Ubuntu, as in Adult movies?? which i thought was clear enough by the first line, ie "thought that would get people's attention.....

The only one trying to separate users are the ones going on that a new subforum section would mean it is somehow restricted, or that people in it would then get all full of themselves and never venture out to say, helping newcomers. The opposite is intended. Many of us don't want to wade thru often mistaken newcomers answers, or try to find a specific use for , example , 'remastering a live cd for xyz purposes'in a section called 'live cd'......

There are plenty of forums out there for advanced linux? Yes, but what about people working to integrate within UBUNTU linux? Sending someone off to DebCentral or Remote-Exploits.com when they are running ubuntu is as alienating as the 'rtfm'and 'get lost newb' attitudes filling other distro forums....nor has it taken into account a number of very valid points made in favor of an additional subforum. The fact of the matter is, and i think it has been mentioned in a number of threads on a numer of topics, that there are very few developers and seasoned ubuntu users here and having space for them would actually attrace an additional section of the user base without restricting anyone elses basics needs and freedoms. Communities seek integration, you suggest that some of us can just go elsewhere. It is because of the ideas enshrined in numerous ubuntu topics that i have already wasted this much time trying to gather views, come up with ideas, and in cases like this, rebut FUD based biases.

We, in this forum, will not be a 'vast array of people' with individual talents when the actual
raison d etre of the forum as stated on the sight is for all users and devs , nor will a sense of ubuntu (in the Xhosa sense) come about when people ignore the following, already posted in full up above: "A person with ubuntu is open and available to others, affirming of others, does not feel threatened that others are able ..." No closed subforum or segregation of users is intended or should result from a hacking buntu section....the most that has been recommended is a 'dont try this at home' warning if your box is your production box....many of us in the FOSS world are also testing, debugging, reviewing etc, on test machines and again, such a section gives them a direct one click link to an area devoted to things less general and yes , often more advanced. Things a sysadmin needs quick access to but someone running their home desktop doesnt. Knowledge is 'separated' within the forum, by sheer necessity already....including an absolute beginners section, an offtopic section, a section for third party apps.

I suggest reading carefully and thinking before you decide what you think someone meant, and by extension accuse them of crippling backbones and creating some bizarre user apartheid......and then insinuate that someone is a child.

<Completely Different Subject> BTW, PriceChild.....do you have a link for that closed discussion, I didnt see it and am looking into as many views and points about these forums in general and reasons why things did or didnt work...? if you got a moment, and can link me, i wouldnt mind glancing at it...thanks.

aysiu

February 24th, 2007, 05:36 PM

Here's the link:
User Reputation / User Ratings? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=16051&highlight=rating)

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 05:38 PM

You said it better than i did, 23meg....thanks.... i also noticed we are practically neighbors, iin the global sense. I know Jordan doesnt have an Ubuntu LoCo.....any thoughts on a Near East Loco, for people a bit southeast of Italy and Northeast of Africa? :D

<end of unrelated tangent....for the moment>

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 05:39 PM

thanks ayisu.....man, there are times this site indeed hits a rush hour.......ack! tell me when its time for lunchbreak, heh

aysiu

February 24th, 2007, 05:59 PM

I've retitled the thread to describe the actual content. Ubuntu for Adults may be eye-catching, but it's not descriptive, and it's also a bit misleading.

mephisto786

February 24th, 2007, 06:08 PM

Touche' .....and thanks again for the link.....its kinda like i figured......it could be quite divisive and diverting....interesting that you guys did try it for a bit tho.....

Is it lunchtime yet?

:-)

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 04:22 AM

II took a few moments this morning to scan over the ongoing debate. I really have to say, that I was struck by ayisu's suggestion for a subsection " Cutting Edge Ubuntu: Advanced Tools and Configs" ...(I tweaked it a wee bit) with the warning that these are "not things to try without risking a borked machine or getting in over ones head." Prominently displayed. Personally I dont mind what area it would go in, some have said the area this subforum is in is low traffic.....so why not?

NO requirements to enter, only that you heed the warning this is not always supported or recommended advice , tools or workarounds......moniotred in basically the same way the rest of the areas are monitored.....I;ve mailed someone at Kubuntu forums as well, and we are discussing the posibility of having a similar section there......but one that is a bit desktop agnostic, not only kde or gnome but kde and gnome and xubuntu and flux et al......And am looking into irc options as to provide initially a low traffic ##UNOFFICIAL support section, with many of those drawn to the Cutting Edge section here to be the first invited to pariciopate by advertising it here at the beginning. But again, free to all with a topic line that it is unofficial and unsupported cutting edge tweaks and workarounds, and general discussion....sometimes light, sometimes heavily into guiding someone thru a rough patch while networking their office or troubleshooting.

OF oourse, this would require a decision I suppose, from the staff here, so this ongoing thread can take a breather and be wrpaped up.......

Is there a next step? a poll, a meeting of you admin types behind closed doors? :-P

I ve purposely spent the last several days doin little else but tying ubuntu offerings, and going to chats and forums and ircs and im farily sure we could get an intial group of semiregular postsers to visit, post stickies and get the ball rolling....but dunno what the next step is at the froums mods end of things. I suppose either a NO, or an okay, lets give it a shot.....?

cheers

aysiu

February 25th, 2007, 04:42 AM

mips

February 25th, 2007, 05:26 AM

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 10:39 AM

Like the ESR ' how to ask quesitons the smart way link to, btw....could be a good sticky for the opening sticky section introducing some subforums. Not a must read, but just to have it there would be intstructive. It's been a few months since I've read it so I certainlly wouldn't mind another read of it.

Er, so, if there is a space, i could telll people on irc running ubuntu (or its cousins) that they have a place to bring some tricky hack big problems,, scripts, iptables problems etc.....naturally I would hope those supporting the idea in this thread stop by and start some how tos and Q&A....Do we still wait for a go ahead from the rest of the mod teams? As I mentioned earlier, something along the lines of what nyisu recommended title and intro wise.......

Guess I'll wait till I see a section or another post before going full speed ahead on collecting stickies and coming up with questions and workarounds that have been driving me nuts.... keep me updated, if you fully greenlight this. Glad we could hash something out.....

cheers

Steveire

February 25th, 2007, 10:39 AM

I think it is a pretty good idea. If you can have a absolute beginner section why not a guru section.

Could actually put the gurus to good use. If we see common problems in other section that are not being solved we could task the gurus to come up with a solution and a howto.

I really see no harm in implementing this idea.

No need for references to gurus either though. Simply 'the next step'. You have your mp3s playing, you're read/writing with ntfs-3g, you have your outlook express contacts in Evolution. What next? Maybe nothing.

You could go on using it and help others do the same. Or, maybe you want to refactor a liveCD to give to your peers preinstalled with k3dsurf, ktechlab, or whatever other tools you'd like immediately useful on a liveCD. This doesn't have to be seen as a 'guru' task. There are excellent tools for doing this, but advanced threads get drowned out by recurring threads on these forums.

I think naming such a section would be important. Let's see what the staff think anyway.

mips

February 25th, 2007, 10:43 AM

No need for references to gurus either though.

I will reference as I please thank you.

PriceChild

February 25th, 2007, 10:44 AM

Isn't the next step from Absolute Beginners... "General Help"?

Then if you have more in depth questions on networking, you go to that forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=136)... programming/coding means you go to that forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39), packaging is here (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44). etc. etc.

I don't believe we should make one general subforum for "advanced" topics when we have a plethora of more specific subforums where the "guru"'s hang out.

Personally I feel that an advanced section would have a negative effect on these other subforums which are more than adequate IMO.

Thats just my opinion though :)

Pricey

reacocard

February 25th, 2007, 11:27 AM

Isn't the next step from Absolute Beginners... "General Help"?

Then if you have more in depth questions on networking, you go to that forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=136)... programming/coding means you go to that forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=39), packaging is here (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=44). etc. etc. ....

Yes, but what about things that don't fit into any of these categories? Things like recompiling a kernel, or remastering a livecd. IMO, That's what such a forum as we're discussion should be for: advanced topics that don't fit into any existing category and go beyond 'General Help'. Currently, such topics are either buried in an existing category, or wind up in the cafe.

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 11:29 AM

Your opinion and input is noted and appreciated Price. Which is why Cutting Edge is a better name for it.....I think we;re passed the debate over how or why new users are separated from the advanced from advanced because they wont be. Nor why the 'order must go from beginning upward in stages......a big ladder with may levels is not a good analogy for a community of any kind. Theres a reason the distro logo is a friiggn circle after all.....like the wheel off fortnee in the tarot, a wheel shape means sometimes you are at the top (the so called advanced' but wheels spin, leaving you sometmes a the bottom begging people in absolute beginners finding out how to configre therye lastest releaes....Folks entrusted to mod that section will be the first to send standard how do i set my wifi up to the corrrect networiking / wireless threads, and threads wheree the wireless problems are too complicated and too risky for new users to give it a shot can be bunped to the place that wanrs them theres are hacks and workarounds to do any number of unusal things with your buntu box. This is UNSTABLE territory, but as we are part of the debian tree in some way,, why should we just mix in devs and people testng a Sid equivalent package among a user group who might think, well if he can do it i can do it,,,and then youll have them on you hands complaining that ubuntu doesnt work and the advice i got hosed my system.......If I dont; like the tone of a forum I choose to stay away.If iwant to see a forum implemeted (and im not alone in this obviously, then why not a piece of cyber turf open to all but mostly of interest to whats under the hood and how things get developed and tested etc.....Honeslty, if they were more than adequate, you wouldnt see anyone agreeing to give it a shot. It would be pure redundancy. Blocking such a subfourm goes against what this distro is. I dont' mean this in a personal way, but i think i saw somewhere round these sites that youre19? Some of the posters in here are not and their jobs and income and the time they have left at the end of the day to invest in contributing to open source, and dealing with rasing families means they migtht take running this distro far more seriously and at far more risk to their data, their companies data and their timesheets.......THESE people seem to say, we are not being served as well as the absolute beginner, the hobbyists, the students and the literal adolsecnets mentioned pages back. We are not being served at all. Instead we're told to wade thru erronious answers to questions we werent asking in the first place and keep answerin the same questions over and over only to find the guy who couldnt get sound didnt even try but went back to windows after twelve people tried their damndest to get the new guys sound up..

One of the best distro community support experiences I have had were ones where users and devs interacted fairly regularly and there werent heiratchies except ones based on specializations and shareable skills. Two examples come to mind......the new user friendly pc-bsd and the classic slackware.....you leann to step back gracefully if youre over your head, and learn, and if you know and can really help? then do so. People won't get swelled heads cause theyre in the Cutting Edge forum. Cutting edge means many things. I dont run Edgy, I run dapper because thats not the cutting edge side i lean toward at the moment. I would like to see more mature discussions and learn more specific things than what i see in the farily general forums......I want to discuss with hardcore programmers why i am being told to study pascal before python......and i want to debate, listen and learn from them. Its unforutnate that only yesterday, after a solid 16 hours of focussing on irc support and these forums and kubuntu, i kept running across people in bsd and slack and remote expploit 'backtrack' distro rooms who do run ubuntu -and can be found regularly giving polite, seasoned advise - but then commiserate in FreeBSD rooms that they cant stand the level of whininess and the 'no, you do i for me' or else i cant be bothered mentality....or the guy who may be having his hard drive dying in real time being helped on irc with a thousand interuptions , by someone who clearly is a hacker in the best sense of the word and a competent sysadmin, walk him thru tests and fixes i certainly didnt understand. All the while deflecting the repeated, impatient and rude newcomer WHY won't SOMEONE HELP ME cut and pastes. Then? meeting some of these people i the other distro rooms, hearing the grumbling about people pouncing all over anyone who seemed to know how to do things demanding they be shown how to apt get NOW! or Where is my kmenu, whichh means even the docs on the distro are too much of a chore to look at, and they ve learned the squeakiest wheel gets the grease.

Whats sad is to meet these helpful people in passing in another distro channel and hearing them say " I cant take that whining anymore.....or being told by an op that discussing sid releases are offtopic when ubuntu is based in part on sid snapshots.....' These people feel excluded from beng more involved with ubuntu cause there is no place for them to benefit and ontinue learning.......You said no on the first page of this discussion and havent really changed your arugument even when that argument was passed on and other issues were raised/, In brief, you see the idea, or one part of it, as bound to fail, and rather than give it a shot, and then have to cut it loose if it does fail, you advocate doing nothing. That, in my opinion is limiting and detrimental to the distro. And thats why i havent shut up about trying to effect a small addition to a large official forum rather than have a fragmented community.....an oxymoron if ever there was one.

In the same viein , i tend to agree that we might not wanna call folks out and out gurus....thats just my opinion.,,,what makes a guru a guru, and when does a newb become a non newb? No idea.......i feel ths subforum should give attention to community needs and not to ego inflation or deflation. Though i d rather see seomething implemented even if the name irked me personally, rather than do nothing at all cause something ;might' go wrong. ....

Is there a system in place that can have this proposal reviewed by the necessary mods at this point?

Or do we simply thread on............. and on............. :-P

peace.

John.Michael.Kane

February 25th, 2007, 12:04 PM

The staff have been unusually silent about this. I mean, I've chimed in a few times, but I'm not speaking as a representative of the staff--I'm just one moderator.

Anyone else have thoughts on this topic?

Personally I don't like the tone of the thread,and I feel this will give a breeding ground to RTFM or you don't belong here green user attitude that plague other avenues of help.

aysiu Wheres the guarantee those asking for this will not

1) Subject new users to abuse. ie: everyone is curious,and will want to ask questions

2) Turn into a section where only certain people are allowed.

Also wheres the guarantee those asking for this have the skills,and knowledge to backup the request for such an advance section.

Are those asking for this willing to sign,and be held to CoC

aysiu theres a lot of give us in this thread yet I don't see anyone offering up their skills,and knowledge or how it would run. Just a lot of we want it.

If this section was to be made I also feel it would have to be heavily moderated.

doobydave

February 25th, 2007, 01:06 PM

I have been thinking similarly to the OP about these forums over the lasts week whilst trying to get the proprietary ATI drivers to work.
On reflection, I think it is more the specific subject rather than the forums in general, as have have used them many times in the past successfully without having to post a question.
This topic (video driver install) however needs addressing. Posts on this subject appear in most topics on rather a large scale with a level of noise that makes constructively searching through them very challenging.
Whilst I would consider myself a linux noob, i do not require hand-holding while copying & pasting text from a how-to into the command line - even if i understand only 85% of it.

Maybe you could achieve all this by implementing a way of searching for threads with no emoticons:lolflag:

aysiu

February 25th, 2007, 01:09 PM

Thanks for the input, SD-Plissken.

As you can see from my first response (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=2157697#post2157697), I had similar reservations, though not as strongly expressed.

I'm not really for the idea, but I do think it's at least considering, and so I would like to continue to have staff input on it.

aysiu

February 25th, 2007, 01:27 PM

Yes, but what about things that don't fit into any of these categories? Things like recompiling a kernel, or remastering a livecd. It's called Tutorials & Tips (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=100) and already exists.

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 01:28 PM

Of course it would be heavily moderated......and I've signed the COC, though whether all here are obliged to I dont know.....this is not an OUR subforum in any sense of the word. You seem to posit YOU vs US,,,,,,which to repeat again , is negative jumping off point to enter into any dialogue. The assumption, stated over and over that experienced linux / ubuntu users are incorrigibally nasty, impatient , eltist and wanting to take over? If that is not a generaliazaiton and a sterotype i dont know what is.

Qualifications? Everyone here, all 9000 probably qualify for something......I hope to come here for help as much as to post topics......if not mroe so. I go for help where it can be found.....if that post is under begnners , i go there. IF i know its a difficult chore not undertaking lightly, i d be more inclined to stop in the new subsection which ayisu has intentionally imo labeled as a CUTTING EDGE and not a GURU or ADVANCED USErS section.

Are we also going to ask people in the beginners section to prove they are beginners, and not merely trolls lying in wait to mock the new guy? I know forum modding on this scale can be a royal pain in the asterisk, but I sense a great deal of implied animosity and accusations of gimme, gimme, gmme among others.......That does wonders for the many who use this great software and then try to find help in the forums and channels .....

I thought this was one persons idea, asking for feedback, some agreed some didnt and now its a with us or against us scenario? When I signed the COC and spent hours posting and helping on buntu related forums, I assumed that meant I was part of a commnunity. But one 'politically incorrect' (read misunderstood) proposal and its becoming clear that I never was a part of the community and that I harbored such 'elitist, RTFM, ranting, childish, self aggrandizing, gimme gimme gimme kind of guy' that many posters imply me to be.

I;m not sure I;m the one who has to re read the CoC.....I'm not the one dragging in my negative expereinces from previous proposals, an overworked mod staff and a heavy volume of daily traffic into this argument.....And now I'm being grilled for qualifications? Maybe I mistake the tone of your last post SD, but I find it confrontational and suspcious....

I also sense alot of it reflects more on past events that I and many of the pro-subforum posters in this thread weren't a part of. Please feel free to clarify if I;m reading you wrong......

mips

February 25th, 2007, 01:32 PM

mephisto786,

Smaller paragraphs please, your 2nd last post would be a pain to read :)

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 01:41 PM

heh, sorry, you wouldnt beleive the cut and paste catastrophes ive been having today between the phone, iMls and irc.......and lil or no sleep......which is sad cause one of my day jobs is as an editor.......

Not sure its wise to edit oneself tho, you never see all the mistakes......

Just be thankful I wasnt reading james joyce before posting, then i may have skipped puncutaion as well...........owww, this forum is giving me carpal tunnel,,,,,,

cheers

John.Michael.Kane

February 25th, 2007, 02:04 PM

My post,and feelings stand. your sidestepping the issues I brought before you.

Your the one asking for an advance section,and I have not seen any proof of the issues I brought up addressed by you or anyone else backing you for this section.

I'm not attacking you. I'm attacking your proposal,and the motives for it,

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 02:20 PM

Attacking the proposal is fairplay....attacking my motives implies distrust from jump street....... what havent i answered, and there is no colllective we, until ubuntu forums gives the go ahead to let anyone post in the new section.

Its up to you to insist for example that people who psot there must sign the CoC.....its not about qualifications, its about trying things with our systems that shouldnt be dropped into a begginers room, or even your basic 'music and mulitmedia' section to choose one at random...because it may involve advanced compiling , discussions of DRM hardware, using non supported and buggy tools like automatix *or so i hear, i use easyubuntu when setting up)

Why is it that advanced use has to imply only advanced users.....all of us are free to get in over our heads from day one with any distro.....the ball is in your court completely because a) you have the option to make room for it
b) set the conditions under which it is run
c) monitor it as closely as you like
d) tell us what we need to 'qualify' for a subforum that will demand no qualifications or special rules to get into unless you yourselves stipulate them
e)demand all of those who use it sign the CofC

Its the Cof C by the way, which makes me go on, tho it starts to feel like flogging a dead horse or swimming upstream....

The We you speak of are individuals debating a new subforum......but there is no collective involved, and theres a good chance some people who liked it wont use it and some people who hated the idea will find it useful.

To be frank, Im puzzled as to what more you want from me, and why you would question my motives having no previous expreinece with me before, well...today....

You seem to suspect there is a powerplay i work. I am looking for a two click fourm site that might reflect where many buntu users are atm, neither new, nor necessarily guru, but we want to lean, teach what we know, and practice the rules that govern not only this fourm but the entire project.....

I see this as a chance to pay it forward in a very specific way. You look at me like im asking for a handout??

signed,
Puzzled

PriceChild

February 25th, 2007, 02:27 PM

Why is it that advanced use has to imply only advanced users.....all of us are free to get in over our heads from day one with any distro.....In the same way, why is it that advanced users may not use General Help or any of the other more specific subforums?

John.Michael.Kane

February 25th, 2007, 02:37 PM

I question your motives cause you have no time put in on this forum for one thing,and your requesting an advance section with no known prior knowledge shown in the way of helping any of the users on these forums.

Yet your asking for a section that would not only make some green users uneasy but possibly alienate them for fear of asking questions,and getting their heads handed to them.

And yes I do suspect there is a power play at work on your part. As you seem to only want to help so called advanced users.

matthew

February 25th, 2007, 02:42 PM

Okay, I really think what other staff have been saying has been adequate, but I'll chime in anyway.

Advanced users are welcome to post on topics anywhere in the Ubuntu Forums. There is a special part of the forums for Absolute Beginners, the rest is for all other users. That includes advanced users.

This is our official answer.

mephisto786

February 25th, 2007, 03:22 PM

I come here, and look for answers when i need them....most of my help is at kubuntu forums which i defintely admit, i ve begun using recently because of a wish to become further involved with the Ubuntu community than i had been.

The forum is not something I want to either run, or dictate. The forum was requested because there are alot of people who stay away altogether because aside from answering the same questions most other users can and do answer, they feel they hanve no stake in furthering their ubuntu use here. I actually want help from advanced users, i dont pretend to be offering help to them. If I came here for some of the advanced questions i run into, that arent answered elsewhere, I'd probably stay on fro a few more hours reading posts and helping beginners. Helping gurus gets me nervous. But I'm willing to try to point out to people i deal with in FOSS advocacy that no, ubuntu is very user freindy buts its no more a newb distro than debian.....its what you make of it.

The reason i help more at kbuntu of late is because i am primarily a kde user. But thanks to the last release, I spend alot more time now just learning all three main desktops, and its known, even if unspoken that Ubuntu forums is the official one, whereas Kubuntu came afterwards, partly as a decision of this form. Consider it going to the source if you will, i still rely on kde for most of my work.

Ive said it earlier, and i ll say it again. My primary focus, since i started with unix in my early 40s, is in advocacy. I try my hand at coding, study sysadmin tools and applications and protocols and systems.....but its like starting piano at the age of five versus fifty. I may someday write an app, but my background is in communications. I was thinking ubuntu is the project that is really doing the most good in the most places for the most people after serveral years of nix use. And recently decided to commit.

I did not think however , that broadening the scope of this forum as many another user freindly distro has done quite successfully, would create such FUD and ruckus.....I've reviewed the LTS release in a local business magazine and write online for a number of FOSS sites and am willing to stand behind this project much more fully of late. Or at least I was....

My point of view then, is one of an advocate, and an intermediate nix user wanting to reach higher. But if I read your last post right, I shouldve been here chatting up a storm from the first warty download i tried to install, not complained that there are different levels of users, have six coffee mugs next to my name, and not say words that might scare a newcomer.....

When I was a new comer? the word kernel scared me. Still does actually. Bravery isnt the absence of fear its walking thru it. But I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that this official forum was part of a larger picture. It was a part of free shipit cds, and educational projects, and debian development, and giving people more free options. And advocacy, and getting ubuntu into the enterprise playing field. I was never happy with the way this forum was laid out, but i can scratch about and find what i need. But I hold up my end supporting the ubuntu project and didnt think asking you folks to add a section on teaching my buntu box more tricks and helping keep it healthy and functioning to the best of its abiility and tweaking it (you know, all those freedom selling points of linux) requried a period of indentured servitude to this forum until i could be trusted to suggest a subforum and maybe become more involved on a level i feel comfortable with.

Its inevitable, as things stand now, that newcomers will be made nervous by something or other. I become nervous when i watch someone asking about which version they should intall for thier office desktops and servers and they are told by an equally new user : Edgy/

That is misleading and potentially harmful to the community and the project. When you point out articles and interiews with mr shuttleworth? you are still told youre wrong and that edgy is the stable release. I work in offices, i advocate linux. That level of ignorance unintetionally misleading people makes ME nervous.

Do I bite their heads off? No, lifes too short. I point out that LTS is intended to help businesses keep a stable running system with less experimental bleeding edge apps, and generally move on to another irc channel, or hit google to find right answers.

Guess I didnt realize that 'these; forums only means this forum and not any other official buntu forum , LQ Forums Ubuntu section, Ubuntu blogs , and unofficia forums. I didnt reaiize the community had been so ghettoized already.

My bad.

regards

matthew

February 25th, 2007, 03:51 PM

mephisto786: I have no idea what you are rambling on about.

These forums are filled with people who enjoy helping other people. It doesn't matter whether those being helped are beginners or advanced or experts, everyone who asks gets all the attention and help possible.

Some of the people answering questions have been using linux/unix for a very long time. Some have learned just enough to answer a question that they themselves asked just last week. In each case the questions are being answered by someone who wants to try and help others in the same way they themselves have been helped.

The reason the Absolute Beginners are separated out with their own forum is to tell those giving the answers to make their answers as clear and basic as possible, perhaps adding in additional information to help teach the newcomer.

If you have an advanced question, ask it. That doesn't require a special forum.

By the way, comments like these that follow do not help you make your point. They make you look rude. Unless that is your intent I suggest you change your posting style. Thank you.I did not think however , that broadening the scope of this forum as many another user freindly distro has done quite successfully, would create such FUD and ruckus.....I've reviewed the LTS release in a local business magazine and write online for a number of FOSS sites and am willing to stand behind this project much more fully of late. Or at least I was....Guess I didnt realize that 'these; forums only means this forum and not any other official buntu forum , LQ Forums Ubuntu section, Ubuntu blogs , and unofficia forums. I didnt reaiize the community had been so ghettoized already.

My bad.