A Look at the Linux Distribution Situation - 2006-2007

[Rodneyck]

Here is an interesting piece regarding various distros, especially about Debian.

http://www.linux.org/dist/reviews/distro2006.html

[Adamant1988]

I just disagree with this, particularly about Mandriva and Debian.

Debian is not obscured, it is just coming into a new role. Instead of being the distribution to have, it's essentially playing "mother distro" to other, more lively, distributions. Without the hard work of the Debian crew, Ubuntu's development cycle would probably be much longer than 6 months, and Linspire just wouldn't exist at all.

As for Mandriva, they're attempting to shine some new light on their distribution with this whole "Metisse desktop". Hopefully it will help them out, or be integrated into other distributions, since it seems to be less hardware reliant than XGL or Beryl.

I'm a little upset that they forgot Sabayon in that list, it's my understanding that it's an up-and-coming distribution.

[RAV TUX]

I just disagree with this, particularly about Mandriva and Debian.

Debian is not obscured, it is just coming into a new role. Instead of being the distribution to have, it's essentially playing "mother distro" to other, more lively, distributions. Without the hard work of the Debian crew, Ubuntu's development cycle would probably be much longer than 6 months, and Linspire just wouldn't exist at all.

As for Mandriva, they're attempting to shine some new light on their distribution with this whole "Metisse desktop". Hopefully it will help them out, or be integrated into other distributions, since it seems to be less hardware reliant than XGL or Beryl.

I'm a little upset that they forgot Sabayon in that list, it's my understanding that it's an up-and-coming distribution.

The article which states it is based on Distrowatch only includes the top 9...Sabayon is the top 10 position....for a 6 month data span....perhaps he was limited in the size of his article?

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8783/snapshot60vq8.png

but after reviewing the list at Distrowatch I am not sure why he choose to include some and not others?

Linux.org managing editor Michael J. Jordan takes a look at the the most popular (according to distrowatch.com) Linux distributions and gives his opinion as to where he thinks they're going as of January 2007
Rising

Ubuntu - Ubuntu is, and has been for some time, the darling of the Linux community. The fact that this distribution gets more popular by the day must be proof now that we're not dealing with just hype. When you've been favorably compared to Microsoft's 5 billion dollar Vista operating system, you know you've done something right. Canonical Ltd., the foundation set up by South African millionaire Mark Shuttleworth, is fanatically committed to its improvement and is reaping the rewards of that commitment by its constantly growing user base. I would not be surprised if some day, in the not too distant future, the word Ubuntu, besides being synonymous with 'peace', becomes synonymous with 'Linux' as well, in much the same way that Red Hat is now.
Fedora - Speaking of Red Hat, along with Google web apps, the Red Hat-sponsored Fedora distribution is probably the best 'beta' software ever produced. The upcoming Fedora 7, slated to be released in the spring, promises to be Red Hat's best ever. Just recently, some pretty reliable statistics have revealed that Fedora's version 6 has been downloaded over a million times. That's pretty good in the crowded Linux landscape. And remember - it's supposed to be 'beta' software, not ready for prime time. Fedora has become the workhorse of the servers and desktops of a big chuck of the Linux world. Its future looks pretty bright.
PCLinuxOS - PCLinuxOS is what Mandriva could have been with committed people at the helm. We should all watch his up-and-coming Linux distribution carefully. Its light footprint makes it fast, but it doesn't omit anything you need (mplayer works out of the box, for example). At the time of this writing (Jan 2007), a new major version is due out shortly. Since its a Live-CD, you can easily take it for a test drive. I recommend it.
Linspire - The release of a 'Fedora' type version, called 'Freespire' has breathed new life into Linspire. The Rodney Dangerfield of the Linux community, the more vocal in the Linux movement have always been critical of this "commercial" distribution founded by ex-MP3.com owner Michael Robertson. Now under a new CEO, Linspire has also opened up its 'click-and-run' repository, which makes it easier to install Linux programs, to other distributions. Linspire just keeps plugging away with their plans to capture more market share for Linux and keeps increasing the number of PCs they sell at Walmart.
Xandros - After a sizable cash injection from Microsoft saved them from bankruptcy, Corel of WordPerfect and drawing application fame fulfilled their side of their Faustian bargain and stopped producing their own Linux distribution. This unit was sold off and became Xandros. Since then, Xandros has become, perhaps, the most user-friendly Linux distribution in existence. If anyone can capture Vista holdouts, it's Xandros, with its Windows refugee friendliness in the form of built-in Crossover Office. They are also making a valiant attempt to get their Xandros boxes into stores where people can actually see them and hopefully buy them.
Staying the Same

MEPIS - Warren Woodford's decision to use the Ubuntu repositories for his distribution may have been good technically, but not so good for his 'brand'. The truth is, if you want Ubuntu, there's always the real Ubuntu. Also, there was controversy for his handling source code, vis-a-vis the GPL's requirements. MEPIS, a technically superior distribution should be on the rising tide, but it isn't.
SUSE - I would say that because of Novell's pact with the devil, ehem, Microsoft, and its ham-fisted PR about it, it's almost falling. But the fact is that SUSE is just too good a distribution - technically, visually, to really be on a downward slope. There are too many important projects associated with it (Mono, for example) for us to begin to write it off. Novell, despite their pairing with Bill Gates and Co, have too much fight left in them to be written off. If anybody can turn the Microsoft pact, a sow's ear if there ever was one, into a silk purse, it's Novell.
Falling

Debian - The word Debian used to be synonymous with stability and reliability. Lately, unfortunately, if you looked up Debian in a Thesaurus, you might find the words fundamentalism and intransigence. Luckily, you won't find the word 'irrelevant' yet because of the popular distributions (Ubuntu, Xandros, Linspire) that are still based on it. It used to be that new versions of Debian always took a long time because, to paraphrase Orson Welles' Gallo commercials, 'they would release no distro before its time'. Increasingly, however, the delays are being caused by political issues rather than than technical ones. The latest cause for delay is the issue of whether developers should get paid for working on it or not. For those of us who live in the world where you have to pay for rent and food, you'd think this would be a no-brainer. But, this issues has slowed down Debian production. To the outside observer, it reminds one of the famous Life of Brian scene where a group divides itself into 'Judean People's Front and The People's Front of Judea'. Compensation or not, there's was no Debian Etch at the end of 2006.
Mandriva - Next to Mandriva in a Thesaurus, you WILL find the word 'irrelevant'. And to think this distribution used to be so damn good.

Michael J. Jordan can be reached at Michael.Jordan**AT**linux.org
http://www.linux.org/dist/reviews/distro2006.html

[RAV TUX]

The article which states it is based on Distrowatch only includes the top 9...Sabayon is the top 10 position....for a 6 month data span....perhaps he was limited in the size of his article?

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/8783/snapshot60vq8.png

but after reviewing the list at Distrowatch I am not sure why he choose to include some and not others?
http://www.linux.org/dist/reviews/distro2006.html

Edit that: The article states it was for 2006....Sabayon in 2006 was in the 19th position so I can completely understand why it didn't make the list.

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/8882/snapshot61xt1.png

Still wondering why he made no reference to Slackware, Gentoo, or Damn Small Linux?

[SunnyRabbiera]

I just disagree with this, particularly about Mandriva and Debian.

Debian is not obscured, it is just coming into a new role. Instead of being the distribution to have, it's essentially playing "mother distro" to other, more lively, distributions. Without the hard work of the Debian crew, Ubuntu's development cycle would probably be much longer than 6 months, and Linspire just wouldn't exist at all.

As for Mandriva, they're attempting to shine some new light on their distribution with this whole "Metisse desktop". Hopefully it will help them out, or be integrated into other distributions, since it seems to be less hardware reliant than XGL or Beryl.

I'm a little upset that they forgot Sabayon in that list, it's my understanding that it's an up-and-coming distribution.
The parts I dont like is his generalisation for Mepis, in some cases I have seen Mepis handle hardware and software lightyears better then ubuntu yet he suggests folks just forget about it.
Warren Woodford worked hard to get most of those drivers and its not chap for him...
This is coming from a former Mepis user of course, and yeh I kind of miss it as I think its better then Ubuntu in some ways... at least the ones that came before the current build that I have been having so many issues with.

[RAV TUX]

The parts I dont like is his generalisation for Mepis, in some cases I have seen Mepis handle hardware and software lightyears better then ubuntu yet he suggests folks just forget about it.
Warren Woodford worked hard to get most of those drivers and its not chap for him...
This is coming from a former Mepis user of course, and yeh I kind of miss it as I think its better then Ubuntu in some ways... at least the ones that came before the current build that I have been having so many issues with.Actually, admittedly Warren Woodford did not work that hard for good hardware detection, he just used KNOPPIX for hardware detection,...any reasonably clued dev will have KNOPPIX hardware detection as it's base...the hard work for the most part was on Klaus Knopper's part.

Interesting project that Klaus and his wife(Adriane) are working on: Adriane Knoppix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriane_Knoppix) (Adriane Knopper, who has a visual impairment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_impairment). She has been assisting Knopper with a version of Knoppix for blind (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blindness) and visually impaired people).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Knopper

[SunnyRabbiera]

Perhaps, but Warren did work hard on a lot of things for Mepis...
I know he is bound to port some of the stuff to ubuntu soon though, Mepis could easily fill in the spot currently occupied by Kubuntu as a good KDE based ubuntu.
To me Mepis runs circles around Kubuntu, I have always had issues with it as opposed to Mepis that has worked for me till the recent non beta 6, I thought that Mepis beta 2 was better then the full fledged Mepis 6

[RAV TUX]

Perhaps, but Warren did work hard on a lot of things for Mepis...
I know he is bound to port some of the stuff to ubuntu soon though, Mepis could easily fill in the spot currently occupied by Kubuntu as a good KDE based ubuntu.
To me Mepis runs circles around Kubuntu, I have always had issues with it as opposed to Mepis that has worked for me till the recent non beta 6, I thought that Mepis beta 2 was better then the full fledged Mepis 6
This could very well be but I was neither impressed with Kubuntu or Mepis...my apologies in advance mates.

[steven8]

I love Kubuntu, but was let down by Mepis.

[RAV TUX]

I love Kubuntu, but was let down by Mepis.

I will add very, very let down by Mepis...I honestly have not tried Kubuntu enough to say the same.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I love Kubuntu, but was let down by Mepis.
I honestly think Kubuntu sucks, I have had more issues with it then with any KDE based distro.
Under mepis I think things are cleaner and I think its better for media then kubuntu.
even ubuntu basic is better in a lot of respects, I honestly dont see the point in kubuntu now that KDE is in the ubuntu repo's.
Xubuntu maybe as XFCE is a lighter load then gnome.
but i think kubuntu needs great refinement, I honestly think they should stablilize it.
of course the current mepis has let me down but I might go back to it once the bugs are out of it.

[xabbott]

I posted some general thoughts on this blog's comments (http://beranger.org/index.php?fullarticle=2351).

I'll just reply to some of the comments I've seen here.

Mandriva, Metisse is not ready and Mandriva only makes themselves look worse for relying on it as a major feature.

Sabayon, it's identity is so tied to Beryl being installed by default. It's DW rating is reliant on people who can't install Beryl or those who simply want to see it. It also helps that they need a press release on Distrowatch all the time. The actual userbase will dwindle as others include Beryl and/or the weekly Sabayon news goes away. Just remember Yoper was once an up and comer. Had you used Distrowatch to gauge the future of distros then you would have thought it was the second coming.

Mepis, It's goals of being "the apple of linux" (1) have been done much better by many others at this point. The creator also burned bridges by his almost disdain for GPL. To this day I believe you have to pay for the source (please correct me if I am wrong).

Kubuntu, it can't be that bad considering how many KDE developers use it.

(1)tllts.org interview March 16, 2005

[SunnyRabbiera]

Mepis the apple of linux?
bull!
Look warren did goof by not releasing the sources, but there are times where GPL does seem too demanding.
Plus Warren did recode most of his stuff to give mepis the polish that so many like over Kubuntu, if Warren is the villain here hre doesnt deserve to be...
he did a lot of hard work for his distro, he has no teams and develops the thing on his own.

[xabbott]

he did a lot of hard work for his distro, he has no teams and develops the thing on his own.

He did it alone by choice, he's been offered plenty of help. Also show me what you feel he's done. By his own admission all he does is change some scripts... Or atleast that was one of his original defenses as to why he didn't provide source.

[SunnyRabbiera]

well he did strike some arrangements to allow certain drivers (line nvidia) to work without much modification.
as for anything relating to GPL, hey Warren could easily go for a little less demanding licence like a BSD liecence.
Heck ubuntu could do that if they felt the GPL was getting to hostile, ubuntu does a lot of things that slip right past the GPL and it might make things easier for Mark Shuttleworth.
I actually met warren though, let me tell you he is a good guy and I do know he took a great risk by allowing nvidia stuff

[igknighted]

I posted some general thoughts on this blog's comments (http://beranger.org/index.php?fullarticle=2351).

I'll just reply to some of the comments I've seen here.

Mandriva, Metisse is not ready and Mandriva only makes themselves look worse for relying on it as a major feature.

Sabayon, it's identity is so tied to Beryl being installed by default. It's DW rating is reliant on people who can't install Beryl or those who simply want to see it. It also helps that they need a press release on Distrowatch all the time. The actual userbase will dwindle as others include Beryl and/or the weekly Sabayon news goes away. Just remember Yoper was once an up and comer. Had you used Distrowatch to gauge the future of distros then you would have thought it was the second coming.

Mepis, It's goals of being "the apple of linux" (1) have been done much better by many others at this point. The creator also burned bridges by his almost disdain for GPL. To this day I believe you have to pay for the source (please correct me if I am wrong).

Kubuntu, it can't be that bad considering how many KDE developers use it.

(1)tllts.org interview March 16, 2005

That is an incredibly unfair statement. There are many distro now with beryl either preinstalled or with a setup manager (Mandriva/PCLOS for example). I think that a massive DVD based distro is more than a beryl demo. I for one wouldnt download over 3 gigs for that purpose. On the contrary, what defines Sabayon is that it is both (a) Gentoo and (b) easy to install. I think this draw towards learning gentoo is where most sabayon users are drawn to. On top of that, the default artwork is gorgeous, well ahead of almost any other distro (not including beryl here). It is just a solid distro all around.

Edit... lol about Mepis being the 'Apple of linux'. For the worst looking distro to make this claim just really makes me laugh.

[RAV TUX]

That is an incredibly unfair statement. There are many distro now with beryl either preinstalled or with a setup manager (Mandriva/PCLOS for example). I think that a massive DVD based distro is more than a beryl demo. I for one wouldnt download over 3 gigs for that purpose. On the contrary, what defines Sabayon is that it is both (a) Gentoo and (b) easy to install. I think this draw towards learning gentoo is where most sabayon users are drawn to. On top of that, the default artwork is gorgeous, well ahead of almost any other distro (not including beryl here). It is just a solid distro all around.

Edit... lol about Mepis being the 'Apple of linux'. For the worst looking distro to make this claim just really makes me laugh.

agreed for the most...Sabayon has been around for a while just under a different name rr64, anyway the focus that nay sayers have about SL only happened when Beryl (on their own accord) decided to make Sabayon Linux the official Beryl distro......this has never been a focus of the SL devs, the shear fact that they pay attention to detail in every aspect from the visual in art to writing code to update the latest Linux Kernel...is just the cultural revolution of Sabayon Linux....

even Ubuntu plans to knock off the acceleration manager that Sabayon developed...allowing users to easily manage Beryl....if you don't want to use Beryl you simply turn it off,...quite easy.

passer byers love to say nasty things about the simple things two feet in front of their face(Beryl)....take a look under the hood and you will see Sabayon is the most advanced OS to date....better then any other Linux OS, OS X or any OS in existence.

The fact that Sabayon is Gentoo is the main reason I use Sabayon, I starting using them before Beryl was there by default...if it didn't include Beryl I would still use it simply because there are a thousand other reasons why it is superior to all.

I will give mention to other OS's that are also impressive:

rPath (Red Hat based)
Wolvix Hunter (Slackware/SLAX based)
Nepalinux (Debian based)

[Rodneyck]

....take a look under the hood and you will see Sabayon is the most advanced OS to date....better then any other Linux OS, OS X or any OS in existence.


For such an alleged advanced OS, it sure has a lot of bugs. I love Sabayon's qt update related kdeinit bug that hoses your installation (check their forum and read about his baby.) This happened to me twice. The only way out of it is reinstall the OS, the most advanced indeed.

[RAV TUX]

For such an alleged advanced OS, it sure has a lot of bugs. I love Sabayon's qt update related kdeinit bug that hoses your installation (check their forum and read about his baby.) This happened to me twice. The only way out of it is reinstall the OS, the most advanced indeed.
I actually mod the forums and have yet to come across this, but I trust that it is there....

Also I have never experienced the problem you speak of....I am in contact with the devs and a host of users daily...I have never heard mention of your stated problem...it must be some variable that may be unique to you and a handful of users...perhaps in your hardware but I am not sure?

I have yet to see an OS without a bug though,....the important thing is how this bug is handled...I trust it will be addressed in 3.3...which should be released soon I trust

[xabbott]

... Sabayon is the most advanced OS to date....better then any other Linux OS, OS X or any OS in existence.

Wow...no...just no.

In any case, if Beryl isn't *your* reason for using it I can safely say it's one of the only reasons it's achieved more buzz lately. Just reading the recent reviews will point that out.

Also it being Gentoo based doesn't say much about it. Gentoo aims to be highly optimized and gives you only what you want. Which is what Sabayon is not. I personally don't even think binary Gentoo distros are a good idea.

Although if it is one of the few good 64 bit distros, then I'll accept that. I don't use any 64bit PCs so I'd have to take your word on it.

[RAV TUX]

Wow...no...just no.

In any case, if Beryl isn't *your* reason for using it I can safely say it's one of the only reasons it's achieved more buzz lately. Just reading the recent reviews will point that out.

Also it being Gentoo based doesn't say much about it. Gentoo aims to be highly optimized and gives you only what you want. Which is what Sabayon is not. I personally don't even think binary Gentoo distros are a good idea.

Although if it is one of the few good 64 bit distros, then I'll accept that. I don't use any 64bit PCs so I'd have to take your word on it.The 64 bit is great but so is rPath...

if you know of anyone looking for a outstanding 64bit OS both are rock solid.

[Rodneyck]

I actually mod the forums and have yet to come across this, but I trust that it is there....



Oh, it's there. A number of people in this thread experienced it.
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3078&highlight=kdeinit

and here..
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2372&highlight=kdeinit

and third post down here...
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2239&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kdeinit&start=15

and here..
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2918&highlight=kdeinit

There's more, but that illustrates my point. The problem is that qt is a dependency of many apps, so its a crap shoot when updating. I have a list of other problems/bugs in Sabayon, so I am still amazed at the statement it is the greatest.

[RAV TUX]

Oh, it's there. A number of people in this thread experienced it.
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3078&highlight=kdeinit

and here..
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2372&highlight=kdeinit

and third post down here...
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2239&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=kdeinit&start=15

and here..
http://www.sabayonlinux.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2918&highlight=kdeinit

There's more, but that illustrates my point. The problem is that qt is a dependency of many apps, so its a crap shoot when updating. I have a list of other problems/bugs in Sabayon, so I am still amazed at the statement it is the greatest.

Still stand by my statement...still the greatest according to me(not anyone else)...I am sure the bugs will be overcome with 3.3.....btw if you can show me an OS without bugs I would be more impressed.

[RAV TUX]

Still stand by my statement...still the greatest according to me(not anyone else)...I am sure the bugs will be overcome with 3.3.....btw if you can show me an OS without bugs I would be more impressed.

also instead of complaining why don't you be a big fish in a small pond and help these guys out....

@ #sabayon-dev-help you find this notice:
Needed: c++ and qt and pyqt programmers with knowledge of linuxlikewise at #sabayon you find this notice:

#Sabayon-dev-help - developers wantedso continue making bug reports and if you know how to code help these guys out....they are an awesome group of people who have worked hard to bring users enjoyment and are being bankrolled by no one...

continue testing and reporting and this will add to the overall improvement...

I know a common problem is some people are not setting aside enough space for the DVD install...

[deanlinkous]

someone please get whoever wrote this crappy article a CLUE.....PLEASE!!!!

big clue needed on aisle 5.....

[K.Mandla]

someone please get whoever wrote this crappy article a CLUE.....PLEASE!!!!
I never bothered paying much attention to linux.org, but as of late it has somehow become irritating to me. A long time ago I remember a thread that wanted to pressure the owner into making it a little more professional; I think now perhaps the idea was a good starting point.

[Adamant1988]

The site is crowded and of poor quality. But then again a lot of open source sites suffer that..

[RAV TUX]

I never bothered paying much attention to linux.org, but as of late it has somehow become irritating to me. A long time ago I remember a thread that wanted to pressure the owner into making it a little more professional; I think now perhaps the idea was a good starting point.

linux.org needs help from Artificial Intelligence (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=19)
I am really impressed with his Blog (http://polarbeardk.blogspot.com/) it is simply outstanding!

[deanlinkous]

Freespire the new breath of Linspire?
Fedora-like?
New CEO?

Laughing too hard to continue to poke fun at that worthless article....scary really...

[Adamant1988]

Freespire the new breath of Linspire?
Fedora-like?
New CEO?

Laughing too hard to continue to poke fun at that worthless article....scary really...

You seem very down on Freespire/Linspire (but then again, not unusual for you).

Freespire is a new breath for Linspire, in the sense that it should help speeding up the development of new releases, as well as making them more stable/usable.

Freespire is Fedora-esque in the respect that it is the community developed derivative that is designed to speed up the development of the flagship product (akin to the RedHat-Fedora relationship)

I'll assume by "New CEO" they're referring to the fact that Kevin Carmony was put in charge.

[xabbott]

Yea, I think people are way to negative towards Lin/Freespire.

[deanlinkous]

No only negative toward hype, spin, and silliness....
Cant help it if a lot of that is exactly what is used to "sell" spire....

Should freespire have to be a new linspire breath? They are already late according to their google calendar..... Is that really the reason they created freespire? Why not just overhaul linspire itself? Maybe they want a new name because everyone has beard of linspire so they hope a new name will be considered a new product and everyone will try it...again.

If you truly think Linspire/Freespire relationship is similar to RedHat/Fedora then....well....okay.... It would take pages to describe all ways it is not similar. But keep buying what they are selling because they sell everything....

New CEO?

I simply used those as a example to support my statement that the article is clueless. Actually, I wonder if it was a advertisement......might explain it.

[Adamant1988]

No only negative toward hype, spin, and silliness....
Cant help it if a lot of that is exactly what is used to "sell" spire....

Should freespire have to be a new linspire breath? They are already late according to their google calendar..... Is that really the reason they created freespire? Why not just overhaul linspire itself? Maybe they want a new name because everyone has beard of linspire so they hope a new name will be considered a new product and everyone will try it...again.

If you truly think Linspire/Freespire relationship is similar to RedHat/Fedora then....well....okay.... It would take pages to describe all ways it is not similar. But keep buying what they are selling because they sell everything....

New CEO?

I simply used those as a example to support my statement that the article is clueless. Actually, I wonder if it was a advertisement......might explain it.

Firstly, I would like to know what your personal issue is with Linspire Co. So far everything they've said they would do has actually been followed through. Red Hat Linux suffered the same problem that Linspire suffers now, it's development started to take too long as a "proprietary" design (meaning that it was only being actively developed by Red Hat staffers and such). They were falling behind other distributions, and fedora was created to help speed the development of the distribution. Essentially loading a lot of the work onto community developers. No, they're not exactly alike, but the general overview is that both serve the same purpose.

You seem to have an issue with them selling their services, heaven forbid that a company wish to make money. You probably think Novell is evil as well, eh? I have yet to purchase anything from Linspire Co. myself (granted, I was lined up to purchase a gold subscription to CNR), but I fully respect their right to sell whatever they like. You seem to be generally ignorant and paranoid of anyone that "sells" linux. But then again maybe your disdain for Linspire Co. comes from the fact that they didn't appreciate you voicing your paranoia on their forums?

[deanlinkous]

I appreciate the way you assume it is something personal...nice way to twist the issue.
RedHat was falling behind? really....
No....what they sell is hype, spin, and proprietary while espousing freedom, choice, easy, and so forth.
RedHat is commercial linux done right (about as right as it can be anyway)....
But as I said - I just picked up on those items as proof that the article is off base in many regards.

[Adamant1988]

I appreciate the way you assume it is something personal...nice way to twist the issue.
RedHat was falling behind? really....
No....what they sell is hype, spin, and proprietary while espousing freedom, choice, easy, and so forth.
RedHat is commercial linux done right (about as right as it can be anyway)....
But as I said - I just picked up on those items as proof that the article is off base in many regards.

I haven't forgotten your little spout on the Freespire forums. You obviously have a grudge.

Yeah, Red Hat Linux was falling behind, probably way before you got involved with linux in any way at all. Fedora was created to offload the work onto the community, Red Hat would then take Fedora, determine which parts were stable enough for Red Hat Linux and include those.

Linspire Co. Sells a service, CNR, which works wonderfully. They are using the exact same design system that Red Hat uses (One community developed distribution, and another "proprietary" one that leverages that). Tell me what Linspire Co. does wrong, and give me real examples not blatantly biased slander. Is this the part where you go on about the inclusion of proprietary technologies inside of the OS (flash, codecs and drivers)? Is this the part where you slander them for trying to "sell linux"?

Now, I don't see a problem with either of those (admittedly) controversial issues that surround the OS. I know a lot of people do on Moral grounds, and that's fine if that's your complaint with them. But what they're doing is smart business.

Oh, and Red Hat uses every available method to keep people locked in (this is well known) So I'm going to assume your problem with Linspire/Freespire doesn't lie in it's corporate backing or proprietary design. Since Red Hat (which does not offer a desktop product) has both going for it.

[deanlinkous]

slander....bias.....
geez I dont have a chance to argue anything now do I...

-hiding links to distrowatch and then claiming it is somehow a accident
-having paid money to not be a party to the SCO claims
-selling people on one technology, only to switch and sell something else
-rebranding free software, slapping it in a box and selling it
-claiming that lindows is not name confusion with windows, while asking that someone shutdown freespire because it does casue name confusion
-designing a system that practically guarantees users will have to run as root
-illegally distributing microsoft media codecs
-old outdated (some non-working) software in CNR so they can claim they have lots of packages available
-no security team, using/keeping packages that other distros consider security risks
-claiming "free security updates" but forgetting to say you have to go and get the source and patch it yourself - even if you just bought the product yesterday!
-CNR that calls home, encrypts packages, does not let you install unless it can verify your account yet not providing any other supported way to install software

Which blantantly slanderous bias are you talking about? I think anywhere I have discussed these issues I have provided proof that supports my statements so I am not sure how it is slanderous if it is the truth, not really bias since it is the truth, and...well I guess it is blatant. Blatant that spire is a company that wants to make a buck (and that part is okay) but to ONLY make a buck and everything else (not alright)...

Anything else you wish me to clarify for ya since you seem intent on twisting this into a *spire issue. Just remember that YOU started this, not me. So try not to accuse me next week of *spire bashing and use this thread as proof.

Strange, I thought RedHat wanted to concentrate more on a stable and tested business solutions type of desktop rather than selling a on-the-edge desktop but they still wanted the community input. Yes they wanted to accellerate development in general but they did not want that "beta" stuff in their corporate solution. I also feel like it was redhat being more open and transparent, more friendly sort of company. I certianly think RedHat could of kept up with anything - heck they have the manpower but they did not want to have that "beta" quality in a official redhat product so we have fedora. You do know that practically all the devs on fedora core are AFAIK redhat employees dont you? At least I must of read that somewhere since according to you I have not been using linux very long. How does RedHat keep people locked in? You do realize that some of the software you are using right now was likely developed by Redhat and possibly even a technology that was bought by redhat and released to the community? Anything like that from *spire?

[Adamant1988]

-hiding links to distrowatch and then claiming it is somehow a accident
I remember this is what sent you up in flames before. The links were removed, tell me, do you also hate Mandriva for this same reason?

-having paid money to not be a party to the SCO claims
I don't know enough about this one to argue with you on it.
-selling people on one technology, only to switch and sell something else
I'm not sure what you're referring to here, clarify?
-rebranding free software, slapping it in a box and selling it
Novell sells "free software" in a box, do you also hate them? Red Hat does it as well. Clarify what you mean, since obviously there is something more to this.
-claiming that lindows is not name confusion with windows, while asking that someone shutdown freespire because it does casue name confusion
Lindows - Windows = 1 Character difference. Freespire - Freespire = Exact match.
-designing a system that practically guarantees users will have to run as root
Having installed it before (both Linspire and Freespire) I can tell you this is a myth. It tells you when you can set up more users and makes it absurdly easy to do so. At this point it's the user's choice to run as root.
-illegally distributing microsoft media codecs
They are actually legal. Show me one document that says they're distributing them illegally, please. I want it from a reputable source too.
-old outdated (some non-working) software in CNR so they can claim they have lots of packages available
This falls back to the reason Freespire was created. Things were getting out of date. The CNR repos are now synced with the debian repos to provide packages.
-no security team, using/keeping packages that other distros consider security risks Which ones are you referring to?
-claiming "free security updates" but forgetting to say you have to go and get the source and patch it yourself - even if you just bought the product yesterday!
This surprises me, you can't CNR the updates? Because when I installed it CNR downloaded all the updates for me just fine...
-CNR that calls home, encrypts packages, does not let you install unless it can verify your account yet not providing any other supported way to install software
Apt-Get has been working on Freespire for some time now. Accounts are free, anyway.

[Adamant1988]

.

Strange, I thought RedHat wanted to concentrate more on a stable and tested business solutions type of desktop rather than selling a on-the-edge desktop but they still wanted the community input. Yes they wanted to accellerate development in general but they did not want that "beta" stuff in their corporate solution. I also feel like it was redhat being more open and transparent, more friendly sort of company. I certianly think RedHat could of kept up with anything - heck they have the manpower but they did not want to have that "beta" quality in a official redhat product so we have fedora. You do know that practically all the devs on fedora core are AFAIK redhat employees dont you? At least I must of read that somewhere since according to you I have not been using linux very long. How does RedHat keep people locked in? You do realize that some of the software you are using right now was likely developed by Redhat and possibly even a technology that was bought by redhat and released to the community? Anything like that from *spire?

Interesting question, I read a really good article on RedHat's lock-in techniques that they use to keep their service contract oriented business model going. I'll try to dig them up for you.

[deanlinkous]

service is not lock-in, solutions are not lock-in unless the technology behind that is hidden and closed.

A service is a choice. If you want the service then you have to stay with the company that can provide it. You can always get a different service from a different company or come up with your own solution. You aren't locked in. Most of the actual "technology" that redhat uses is open/free so you are welcome to design your own solution if you wish.

[deanlinkous]

The links were removed, tell me, do you also hate Mandriva for this same reason?

Hate? None of this is personal, please stop trying to make it into something personal.

It is a decpetive business practice and shows the nature of the company and those running it. Yes, they have changed tactics a little - this does not mean they have changed the nature of their business.

Does mandriva have graphics that say "CLICK HERE TO TRY MANDRIVA" and those links register a hit on distrowatch? Do they have graphics that say "MANDRIVA IS A PROUD SUPPORTER" and it links to distrowatch hit page for the distro?

I don't know enough about this one to argue with you on it.
They are indemnified from the litigation. They have paid for the "right" to the (supposed) infringing IP in linux according to SCO. Amazing you do not know about this since you seem to imply you know all about them yet I know nothing.

I'm not sure what you're referring to here, clarify?
skype>gizmo just one example

Novell sells "free software" in a box, do you also hate them? Red Hat does it as well. Clarify what you mean, since obviously there is something more to this.
Does Novell take Firefox/Openoffice, stick it on a CD and sell it for 29.99?
What about taking Gimp, calling it something else, not even mentioning that it is the GIMP and selling it for 79.99? Of course this was not linspire itself but another MR venture....

Lindows - Windows = 1 Character difference. Freespire - Freespire = Exact match.
Uh at the time it was Linspire - Freespire! Very different and a lot more than one character.

Having installed it before (both Linspire and Freespire) I can tell you this is a myth. It tells you when you can set up more users and makes it absurdly easy to do so. At this point it's the user's choice to run as root.
It has a button to setup more users. What new user is going to know how, why or even what purpose another user account would serve? I mean it is just one person using the computer why have more than one account. But I was referring to making it practically impossible to get stuff DONE as a user. Things dont work, cant get them configured correctly and so forth so practically requires root for a functioning system. Search the Linspire support site for SCANNER and see how easy it is to use a scanner as a non-root user. Look at the freespire forums and you will see plenty of complaints about not being able to get "stuff" done unless they are root.


They are actually legal. Show me one document that says they're distributing them illegally, please. I want it from a reputable source too.
They are legal NOW. They WERE distributed illegaly. See if you can find the settlement agreement and look for this part of it
a. LindowsOS version 4.0 and LindowsOS version 4.5 (now
renamed Linspire 4.5) include the following copyrighted files owned by
Microsoft: wma9dmod.dll, wmadmod.dll, wmspdmod.dll, wmv9dmod.dll, wmvdmod.dll
(collectively, the "Windows Media Files"). Within ninety (90) days of the
Effective Date of this Settlement Agreement, Lindows shall cease any further use
or distribution of the Windows Media Files in any product or by any method of
distribution. Lindows, its successors in interest, and present and future
subsidiaries agree to make no further use of the Windows Media Files in any
product at any time.


This falls back to the reason Freespire was created. Things were getting out of date. The CNR repos are now synced with the debian repos to provide packages.
Did someone design a system that you cannot remove stuff from the warehouse? Is their some reason they could not update the packages? I believe we are discussing linspire as well as freespire, so I think it is all relevevant. So they could not fix Linspire but now everyone should be happy they have moved on to freespire. So they create a mess then sell you the new hope(mess)? Why would packages that do not work be in a warehouse? Why would every lib be listed as a package? Certainly not so they can claim they have 20,000 packages available and that is better than some other distros.


Which ones are you referring to? The ones that have all been updated by other distros. The ones marked critical-security-risk but that linspire did not feel there was a security risk. :) Search the LINSPIRE forums for security issues and you will find plenty. Here is a bone or two for you.
http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=421694
http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=387958
http://forum.linspire.com/viewtopic.php?t=420715

In one or two of those it was stated that they are working on a solution. Did you ever see one? Does this sound like a company you want to trust? I trust them enough to know they are out to make buck, PERIOD! Just admit it and then we wil agree. If you see nothing wrong with making a buck via whatever means then just say so.


This surprises me, you can't CNR the updates? Because when I installed it CNR downloaded all the updates for me just fine...
You paid for CNR. I did not. I do not want CNR. I do not want it calling home. Maybe I do not have internet or something. Remember CNR was not always free. I paid 59.99 for linspire yet I have to get my own security updates using source code? Sheesh!!! No other linux makes me do this. So I HAVE to purchase CNR after purchasing the OS just so I can get a security update. (if there was a security update)

Apt-Get has been working on Freespire for some time nowI assume you are talking about those betas. The ones that you cannot set your networking settings up using a GUI and so forth.... All you will get using apt on linspire is breakage! If I use apt on my newly purchased 59.99 linspire OS then I have just lost any chance of filing a support ticket.

I wish I had time to provide all this cold hard proof you want but you may take what little I gave you and investigate a little yourself - who knows what you might find. At the very least you will find a company that IMO cannot be trusted to do anything but make a buck, period!

[unbuntu]

Hey...don't want to get into your hot debate here, but just want to point out that Linspire may not be as evil as you think...they donate a portion of their revenue to the Open source community and they also invest in open source software like Nvu. I never tried Linspire before but may give it a spin when Freespire 2.0 comes out.

[Adamant1988]

Hey...don't want to get into your hot debate here, but just want to point out that Linspire may not be as evil as you think...they donate a portion of their revenue to the Open source community and they also invest in open source software like Nvu. I never tried Linspire before but may give it a spin when Freespire 2.0 comes out.

I wouldn't call it a hot debate. I'm just pointing out the flawed logic behind targeting Linspire Co. Specifically. I've had the pleasure of talking with Kevin Carmony, briefly, he didn't seem like a bad guy at all.

[kazuya]

i like where linspire was going. it is giving back and taking steps forward as well to make linux known. I applaude them.

[argie]

Interesting, 'Debian is dying', haha. Funny. Very.


Look warren did goof by not releasing the sources, but there are times where GPL does seem too demanding.

That's a dangerous line to be taking.


well he did strike some arrangements to allow certain drivers (line nvidia) to work without much modification.
as for anything relating to GPL, hey Warren could easily go for a little less demanding licence like a BSD liecence.
Heck ubuntu could do that if they felt the GPL was getting to hostile, ubuntu does a lot of things that slip right past the GPL and it might make things easier for Mark Shuttleworth.
I actually met warren though, let me tell you he is a good guy and I do know he took a great risk by allowing nvidia stuff
AFAIK, they can't mix BSD-licence code with GPL-licence code.

[RAV TUX]

AFAIK, they can't mix BSD-licence code with GPL-licence code.
Interesting that you say this because Gentoo already has a working release of Gentoo/FreeBSD.


Portability toward other operating systems, such as BSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BSD)-derived ones, are under active development on Gentoo/ALT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo/ALT) project. The Gentoo/FreeBSD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo/FreeBSD) project already has a working release, while Gentoo/NetBSD, Gentoo/OpenBSD and Gentoo/DragonFly are being developed. There is even a project to get Portage working on the Hurd (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurd) although development is slow.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentoo_Linux