iTunes declared illegal in Norway? Other european countries to follow suit

[Old Pink]

Looks like I'll finally get my DRM .m4p files to play in amaroK! :D

http://www.mbhoy.com/29-01-2007/norway-declares-itunes-illegal

Interesting news, hopefully everything will go smoothly and Apple will allow us to convert .m4ps to .mp3.

Show your appreciation, leave a comment. :)

:guitar:

[Polygon]

i hope so too, the itunes music store is a great thing, but the drm really turns it off for me

hopefully if they do this, it will be for music purchased from all music stores, including the united states one, and not just from the norway/sweden/germany/wherever

[jeffc313]

Looks like I'll finally get my DRM .m4p files to play in amaroK! :D

http://www.mbhoy.com/29-01-2007/norway-declares-itunes-illegal

Interesting news, hopefully everything will go smoothly and Apple will allow us to convert .m4ps to .mp3.

:guitar:
What I hope is that Apple fails to comply, and every country bans iTunes store. I hate apple

[Old Pink]

What I hope is that Apple fails to comply, and every country bans iTunes store. I hate apple

Wouldn't go this far, I like this quote, from the article:

“I understand that a company feels the need to protect its products from piracy,” said Thon. “However, this should not negatively affect customers who through lawful means have obtained downloaded files. Today, iTunes´ use of DRM-technology renders the customers without rights in dealing with a company which on a whim can dictate what kind of access customers will have to products they have already paid for.”

Simply, we paid for it, it's ours. Let us have it, no restrictions. :D

[Kernel Sanders]

Simply, we paid for it, it's ours. Let us have it, no restrictions. :D

Wouldnt go that far :/

[Mateo]

i disagree with this strongly. if you don't want apple's DRM, simply don't buy from them. that's consumer choice. freedom is great.

[maniacmusician]

man, I kind of hope iTunes gets banned too. I've never liked it, or apple. Actually, iTunes was one of the worst pieces of software that I ever used on Windows.

Besides that, as a musician, I can appreciate that their online music service is a disgrace to music and the people that work hard to make it. I can't think of many artists that support DRM. They want to make money, yes, but they'd like to do it in another way than locking down tunes for people.

[Old Pink]

All I want to do is play my .m4p files in amaroK. :)

[FyreBrand]

man, I kind of hope iTunes gets banned too. I've never liked it, or apple. Actually, iTunes was one of the worst pieces of software that I ever used on Windows.

Besides that, as a musician, I can appreciate that their online music service is a disgrace to music and the people that work hard to make it. I can't think of many artists that support DRM. They want to make money, yes, but they'd like to do it in another way than locking down tunes for people.I think if iTunes gets banned or loses mass market share that will be a bad thing because it will only make room for Microsoft to move in. I think it's poor logic to assume that if Apple's DRM is broken that DRM will go down the tubes.

I'm not a DRM supporter and I do think it's a baaddd thing, but it's also important to think about what happends when there is a void and what fills it.

I also don't know a lot of musicians that think DRM is great, but then it's the publishers and not the artists that are making the rules.

[maniacmusician]

I think if iTunes gets banned or loses mass market share that will be a bad thing because it will only make room for Microsoft to move in. I think it's poor logic to assume that if Apple's DRM is broken that DRM will go down the tubes.

I'm not a DRM supporter and I do think it's a baaddd thing, but it's also important to think about what happends when there is a void and what fills it.

I also don't know a lot of musicians that think DRM is great, but then it's the publishers and not the artists that are making the rules.
well that's what is wrong :)

Why do you think iTunes is at the risk of getting banned? Yup, because it has a DRM'd, locked down system. This same thing would happen if Microsoft tried to move in with the same thing.

There are lots of smaller stores that are starting to sell high quality, non-DRM'd music, and that is great. I think they will fill the void, not microsoft. Why wouldn't they? Their music is high quality, and it gives you freedom to listen to it the way you want, instead of restricting you. Microsoft wouldn't stand a chance in this market.

[Mateo]

banning things because you don't like them is immoral. if you don't like something, don't buy it. that's what I do. I don't try to take away other people's right to use a service.

[maniacmusician]

All I want to do is play my .m4p files in amaroK. :)
I hear ya

But in the future, how about you support artists and dissent against DRM by buying from better stores? :) That's a much better solution. Hey, who knows, maybe we'll both get what we want.

[DrainBead]

man, I kind of hope iTunes gets banned too. I've never liked it, or apple. Actually, iTunes was one of the worst pieces of software that I ever used on Windows.

Besides that, as a musician, I can appreciate that their online music service is a disgrace to music and the people that work hard to make it. I can't think of many artists that support DRM. They want to make money, yes, but they'd like to do it in another way than locking down tunes for people.

You don't like it so you want it banned?

I really hate Chrysler cars, IKEA furniture, Kawazaki bikes, paved roads, stop signs, wolfs, bears, ugly people and most of all people who disagree with me.

[RAV TUX]

I would like to see an Open Source version of iTunes.....where all profits go directly to the artist...and developers

[glabouni]

i disagree with this strongly. if you don't want apple's DRM, simply don't buy from them. that's consumer choice. freedom is great.

too bad for those who bought an ipod as it is intimate with itunes and ITMS. IMHO freedom of choosing between brand A or brand B or brand C is not freedom of choice. I'd like to have the choice of buying music files in ogg or flac format but I have yet to find a store that sells such files. On the other hand I like to listen to ogg/flac files I made from my cd collection with my gp2x but this is simply impossible with an ipod.

don't forget that beforehands steve jobs said that interoperability and open formats would be the strength of the ipod. then music industry and consortium said "no way" and apple just conformed.
I fail to see any "different think" in thinking getting rich using proprietary formats and closed platform.

BTW, a similar justice action is ongoing in France against apple and itunes. And sony got
condemned last month for sony-connect.
http://www.edri.org/edrigram/number5.1/drm_sonyfr

[maniacmusician]

You don't like it so you want it banned?

I really hate Chrysler cars, IKEA furniture, Kawazaki bikes, paved roads, stop signs, wolfs, bears, ugly people and most of all people who disagree with me.
Isn't that what human nature often boils down to? I don't like it, so why would I want it around?

I didn't say that I was going to force it to be banned, or that I'm going to force other people to believe it should be banned.

But at the moment, something that I don't like has a chance of getting banned...I'm human, yeah, so I hope it gets banned. You may not. Big deal.

We can all preach that we wish for the existence of a choice for everyone, but when you personally come across something that you despise and don't think is morally correct, does any of that ever matter? We all may think that when the moment arrives, everyone will uphold their ideals and principles over personal beliefs, but that's just not true.

I was only expressing my wishes. Do I believe in everyone having a choice and letting people decide things for themselves? Sure. Does that matter when I'm confronted with a personal issue that I have a strong opinion about? Not a bit.

[SunnyRabbiera]

I have had mixed results with Itunes, but i did like it and yeh I kind of miss it (though i do have it working in wine its not the best)
Glad amarok is sorta like itunes, so is exaile but amorok beats it out.

[IYY]

i disagree with this strongly. if you don't want apple's DRM, simply don't buy from them. that's consumer choice. freedom is great.

What about the users who have spent hundreds of dollars on this digital music, innocently assuming that they own it, and then realize that all they bought is the right to play music in iTunes or their iPod. What if they later want to switch music players? What if Apple itself stops supporting this format one day? (Don't laugh, this has already happened with Plays For Sure and the Zune!)

banning things because you don't like them is immoral. if you don't like something, don't buy it. that's what I do. I don't try to take away other people's right to use a service.

When something becomes popular enough to be a monopoly, and directly forces the user to use a specific product... it should not be legal! If you don't do something about such things, soon enough you will have no freedom to choose as such products gain an absolute monopoly on the market. What will happen on the day when iTunes becomes the only place to buy legal music? You will no longer be able to buy any music unless you use Windows or Mac OS.

Banning things because you don't like them is wrong, but banning things because they steal the freedoms of others is your responsibility as a leader, unless you live under anarchy, in which case there would be no copyright anyway.

[Mateo]

What about the users who have spent hundreds of dollars on this digital music, innocently assuming that they own it, and then realize that all they bought is the right to play music in iTunes or their iPod. What if they later want to switch music players? What if Apple itself stops supporting this format one day? (Don't laugh, this has already happened with Plays For Sure and the Zune!)

Those users didn't do their research. That's their fault. Thems the breaks, you live and learn.

When something becomes popular enough to be a monopoly, and directly forces the user to use a specific product... it should not be legal!

iTunes isn't a monopoly. You can buy music at places other than iTunes, believe it or not. You can even buy music online besides just on iTunes.

If you don't do something about such things, soon enough you will have no freedom to choose as such products gain an absolute monopoly on the market. What will happen on the day when iTunes becomes the only place to buy legal music? You will no longer be able to buy any music unless you use Windows or Mac OS.

I'm not sure if you understand what a monopoly is. A monopoly is when a company has complete ownership over a means of production. That would mean, in this case, that iTunes has bought the exclusive rights to sell music.

I think it's ludicrous to think that day is ever coming, that I'm not going to be going to my local music store and buy music (like I've done for years), or that even non-itunes music outlets are illegal. Nevertheless, iTunes is not a monopoly now, and therefore should not be banned. You are stealing people's freedom by doing so (both the company's and consumers).

Being popular is not the same as being a monopoly.

Banning things because you don't like them is wrong, but banning things because they steal the freedoms of others is your responsibility as a leader, unless you live under anarchy, in which case there would be no copyright anyway.

iTunes doesn't steal your freedom. It sells products with strict terms of use. If you disagree with the terms, you don't have to buy their products. That's how the world works in every market.

[VraiChevalier]

If I may add 2 cents worth?

DRM seems to be akin to any other copyright scheme. Artists, whether musicians or writers or painters get used and abused by the copyright system.

Apple iTunes can be convienient and easy to use.

Music purchased from iTunes and burned to CD can be ripped back, using iTunes, as a mp3 file and used however one wishes (with a wink and a nod from iTunes I believe).

The internet makes it possible for a kzillion artists to market themselves and thereby negate the need for the middlemen.

Searching out independent artists and purchasing their CDs' is the best way to scoff at iTunes (in my humble opinion).

[FyreBrand]

well that's what is wrong :)

Why do you think iTunes is at the risk of getting banned? Yup, because it has a DRM'd, locked down system. This same thing would happen if Microsoft tried to move in with the same thing.

There are lots of smaller stores that are starting to sell high quality, non-DRM'd music, and that is great. I think they will fill the void, not microsoft. Why wouldn't they? Their music is high quality, and it gives you freedom to listen to it the way you want, instead of restricting you. Microsoft wouldn't stand a chance in this market.
I'm not really against you here, but I am saying that people should consider the consequences. People tend to jump on the moral bandwagon without thinking through the unintended consequences and they are always there.

I don't agree with DRM'd music, but then again no one is forcing someone to use that service. I don't buy music online. I buy CD's and rip them to ogg with Amarok. I won't buy an portable music player until I find one I know will work with Kubuntu and ogg/flac files.

I think the problem I have with DRM isn't so much in an online download but when you purchase physical media and it limits the way you can rip and /or use the CD (I'm talking Sony here).

I would like to see an Open Source version of iTunes.....where all profits go directly to the artist...and developersI would like that too.

[maniacmusician]

the reason you don't have a problem with online DRM is because you don't buy music online. I agree, I prefer getting CDs as well. but it's a whole lot easier to buy music online. The problem is that people immediately think of iTunes when they think online music shop, and they often times buy DRMd music without even realizing it until it's too late.

[Torajima]

Sigh... at times the rants against Apple really annoy me.

Apple doesn't use DRM to be mean... Steve Jobs reportedly isn't too fond of DRM schemes... they use DRM because it's the ONLY way the record labels would allow them to sell music. Even so, Apple has some of the laxest DRM in the industry.

Anyone can easily defeat it: burn the music to CD and re-import the music as AIFF or mp3, and the DRM is gone.

Also note that DRM only applies to music you purchase on the iTunes store, it does not apply to podcasts or music you rip from your own CDs (and even those copy protected CDs that don't work on Windows PCs tend to work fine on the Mac).

Don't get me wrong, I'd rather the DRM wasn't there, but if you're going to be angry at someone, make sure it's aimed at the right party... the RIAA and the music industry in general.

[maniacmusician]

Well, in defense of my opinion, I can tell when the difference in quality when I burn music to a CD and rip it again. Also, it wastes a CD!

You're right, the RIAA does suck, they're horrible, but Apple has a lot to do with it. They're a corporation...DRM helps them retain control over the music they sell, and they like it. But there are sites out there that are selling music without DRM; othermusic.com is a good example of one of them.

DRM is just not beneficial to the consumer, and in my opinion, it's on its way out. One thing we agree on, I think, is that arguments like this are pretty silly. (we think that for different reasons, but hey). Let's just wait and see what happens. Or even better, perhaps we can do something to help things move along in the direction that we prefer.

[FyreBrand]

the reason you don't have a problem with online DRM is because you don't buy music online. I agree, I prefer getting CDs as well. but it's a whole lot easier to buy music online. The problem is that people immediately think of iTunes when they think online music shop, and they often times buy DRMd music without even realizing it until it's too late.I don't buy music online because it's DRM'd, but I also see how unscrupulous people are going to share those files. If you look through the gaming section, here in the cafe, and possibly the multi-media section you can easily find threads with people looking to pirate media or software. While I don't like copy protection there is a reason why it's there. No one can deny software piracy (including digital media) is big.

So what I don't like about DRM is that big greedy music companies are limiting file use and raking in the money and not sharing the profits with the artists. I might even buy into some restrictions if the system was set up to actually pay the people who make the music (musicians and sound engineers) rather than publishing companies. So it's not that I don't care about DRM because I don't buy online. I don't buy online because it's restrictive and a poor value and the money still doesn't go to the artists. Even without big record companies I find it difficult to believe someone making their living selling their music is going to go by the honor system. If the honor system worked we wouldn't have locks and alarms. DRM is just a poor solution to a really bad problem.

As far as being easier to buy online, well people have bought into instant gratification. Maybe they should have voted with their wallets in the first place (by not supporting DRM in the beginning). If they bought something (more than once) because they are naive then that's just foolish.

[banjobacon]

Apple doesn't use DRM to be mean... Steve Jobs reportedly isn't too fond of DRM schemes... they use DRM because it's the ONLY way the record labels would allow them to sell music. Even so, Apple has some of the laxest DRM in the industry.

If I were to take sides in this thread, I'd side with those defending Apple's right to sell DRM'd files. This point you bring up, however, I really don't buy (at least not anymore). Apple sells music by many independent labels through iTunes, labels which also have songs available without DRM on emusic.com. Obviously, these labels are not concerned with DRM. Apple has made no effort, though, to sell these songs without restrictions.

If people want to see DRM-free music for sale online, check out emusic.com. I believe they're the 2nd largest digital music store. Though they only sell music on independent labels, an increased customer base would show major labels how a digital music store can succeed without the use of DRM.

[Torajima]

Well, in defense of my opinion, I can tell when the difference in quality when I burn music to a CD and rip it again. Also, it wastes a CD!


Import as FLAC and use a CD-RW, problem solved! ;)

[maniacmusician]

I don't buy music online because it's DRM'd, but I also see how unscrupulous people are going to share those files. If you look through the gaming section, here in the cafe, and possibly the multi-media section you can easily find threads with people looking to pirate media or software. While I don't like copy protection there is a reason why it's there. No one can deny software piracy (including digital media) is big.

So what I don't like about DRM is that big greedy music companies are limiting file use and raking in the money and not sharing the profits with the artists. I might even buy into some restrictions if the system was set up to actually pay the people who make the music (musicians and sound engineers) rather than publishing companies. So it's not that I don't care about DRM because I don't buy online. I don't buy online because it's restrictive and a poor value and the money still doesn't go to the artists. Even without big record companies I find it difficult to believe someone making their living selling their music is going to go by the honor system. If the honor system worked we wouldn't have locks and alarms. DRM is just a poor solution to a really bad problem.

As far as being easier to buy online, well people have bought into instant gratification. Maybe they should have voted with their wallets in the first place (by not supporting DRM in the beginning). If they bought something (more than once) because they are naive then that's just foolish.
I partially agree with you. People did make a foolish decision by choosing to buy DRM'd music, and it is indeed the RIAA and record labels that are being greedy.

I'll have to disagree on the count of piracy. It does seem as if the level of piracy is uncontrollably high, but it has been shown in the past that piracy barely makes a dent in the sales of software and music. Also, I personally believe that piracy is acceptable under certain circumstances (mainly in any situation where the artist no longer recieves any money; an example is if the artists have passed away), but that shouldnt be part of this, it's just a personal belief.

But the point was, most people will take an ethical, legal approach instead of piracy if they're getting what they pay for.

[vayu]

banning things because you don't like them is immoral. if you don't like something, don't buy it. that's what I do. I don't try to take away other people's right to use a service.

Apple is the one doing the banning. They ban the use of media for use other than what they decide. You're right banning is immoral.

You pay for something and Apple takes away your right to use it as you see fit. Apple has no right to do that, and intelligent legislation recognizes that. You can't say someone is taking away a right from Apple when Apple is doing something they have no right to do.

[3rdalbum]

I think iTunes and DRM should be banned. Not because it inconveniences myself - I can get around the DRM in the iTMS, on DVDs and even on an audio CD I bought yesterday - but because it makes it very difficult for less-knowlegable people to legally use the music they bought. Or the movie they bought. Or the software they bought.

It could be argued that DRM is unconstitutional in many countries, since it makes the assumption that the consumer is guilty of piracy - rather than "innocent until proven guilty".

[MrHorus]

I feel I should point out that iTunes itself hasn't been declared "illegal" as it's just an online market place.

What was *actually* declared illegal was Fairplay, Apple's implementation of DRM that ties people to their proprietry platform.

The link from the OP doesn't really make the distinction all that clear...

[Old Pink]

I hear ya

But in the future, how about you support artists and dissent against DRM by buying from better stores? :) That's a much better solution. Hey, who knows, maybe we'll both get what we want.

Of course, I do that now, but back in the day when I was an iPod-owning Windows user, with a vast store at my disposal, I knew no better and used it quite regularly.

Of course, iTunes for Linux would also solve my problem, and if there was one, I'd probably continue to use the store. :(

[NoWhereMan]

this sounds interesting
http://www.grooveshark.com/features.html

btw, for whom thinking that as you bought music that's yours, you're just wrong!

you don't pay to own that music, but to gain the right to listen to it.

In Italy you can't - for instance - reproduce music in public without paying. I mean, if you have an activity open to the public, I mean, even a shoe store, and you let the radio play, you have to pay SIAE (the _PRIVATE_ monopolistic society which should "protect" authors rights, but which in fact "protects" even those who didn't ask)...

Bye

[Magnes]

In Italy you can't - for instance - reproduce music in public without paying.

The same in Poland.

[Enverex]

I can't believe there seem to be people siding with DRM in this thread, I only hope that they get very much into music and swamped with DRM to see how lovely it really is.

[nandasunu]

I'd like to have the choice of buying music files in ogg or flac format but I have yet to find a store that sells such files.

You need to check out www.magnatune.com (http://magnatune.com/), not only do they offer downloads of WAV, FLAC, OGG, and MP3 in different qualities, they let you choose how much you want to pay... and you can give 3 copies the friends legally for free, and you can do it all through Amarok (1.4.4)....

In regards to itunes, I've used the store in the past, it sucked to find out that I couldn't play the files back in linux, but at least they let you burn them to a cd, some don't.. DRM sucks, but the itunes DRM isn't the worst of the bunch.

[glabouni]

You need to check out www.magnatune.com (http://magnatune.com/), not only do they offer downloads of WAV, FLAC, OGG, and MP3 in different qualities, they let you choose how much you want to pay... and you can give 3 copies the friends legally for free, and you can do it all through Amarok (1.4.4)....

I'm just back from there, it's nice to know there are online store like this one, but there's little choice. And I found none of the music I'm currently looking for. (a sepultura album, a mohamed rafi album, and true romance OST). apart from the sepultura album, I'm not even sure what I'm looking for would available from itms or allofmp3.

___________________
Those users didn't do their research. That's their fault. Thems the breaks, you live and learn.

you should know better, users/consumers are not power users and should *never* have to spend time trying to find information. can you imagine a business world where each and every buyer would go through length of research before buying ?
buyer got a life to attend to.
if the seller was honest it would be written on the item box that using it (the item) is locked to the manufacturer other products and will only works with those.


iTunes isn't a monopoly. You can buy music at places other than iTunes, believe it or not. You can even buy music online besides just on iTunes.

I'm not sure if you understand what a monopoly is. A monopoly is when a company has complete ownership over a means of production. That would mean, in this case, that iTunes has bought the exclusive rights to sell music.

you seem to have forgotten the word "online" as in "sell music online". btw you got the monopoly definition wrong. microsoft is in monopoly position over the OS market, and apple is in monopoly position over the online music sales and distribution market.
I fail to see how one can deny this.

Nevertheless, iTunes is not a monopoly now, and therefore should not be banned. You are stealing people's freedom by doing so (both the company's and consumers).
Actually itms, itunes, ipods, fairplay are all part in the locked market monopoly position.
once again you should know better, you don't ban something because it is in monopoly position. and here it is clearly stated that drm and locking buyers to their own products that got apple into trouble.

iTunes doesn't steal your freedom. It sells products with strict terms of use.

I'm not disagreeing with you and thinking you are wrong, I just think in more global terms of use.

If you disagree with the terms, you don't have to buy their products. That's how the world works in every market.

once again, you should know better, people are not buying stuff because they have to or because they need to. every market is different, and each part of the world works in different ways.

now let's take a different point of view, I wan't to buy music online to store it on my ipod and I disagree with ITMS strict terms of use can you please point me an online store where I can buy the same stuff that is available on ITMS ?

[glabouni]

I can't believe there seem to be people siding with DRM in this thread, I only hope that they get very much into music and swamped with DRM to see how lovely it really is.

Actually linux torvalds himself is siding with DRM, and many tech-aware people are too.
For the simple matter that DRM are not evil. DRM is just another technology.
There's nothing good/evil or right/wrong about a tool, it is the use made of this tool that can be right or wrong.

the underlying problem here are obsolete copyright laws are forced into digital age by greedy people. keep in mind that copyright owners are not always the creative people that made the copyrighted material. Many artists were conned (and stille are nowadays) by music industry. bands and artists usually make more money from touring and concerts than from music sales.

the whole matter can be simply resumed with one sentence and a sticker:

music is not an industry

http://www.craphound.com/images/failedbizmodelcleft.jpg

[NoWhereMan]

Actually linux torvalds himself is siding with DRM, and many tech-aware people are too.
For the simple matter that DRM are not evil. DRM is just another technology.
There's nothing good/evil or right/wrong about a tool, it is the use made of this tool that can be right or wrong.

that's wrong... Linus DID NOT side with DRM, he just doesn't want his kernel to force you not to use DRM'ed stuff, but this is fairly different from saying that he agrees with DRMs. There was an inteview about this but I don't remember where did I get it from

bye :)

[Oki]

The good thing is that both French and Germany are standing behind the claim. That is so many customers that Apple cant just pull out of the marked (Norway has only 4,5 m. residence).

“Fair play” for Apple is(witch Norway want to change):
1: In the contract that you must agree on before using itunes it stands; Apple can change the contract if they want to, after the agreement.
2: You can only use the mp3 bought from itunes on your ipod.

This has nothing to do with fair play…

[kuja]

intelligent legislation Hahahahah! there's a good one! :lolflag:

[Mateo]

that's wrong... Linus DID NOT side with DRM, he just doesn't want his kernel to force you not to use DRM'ed stuff, but this is fairly different from saying that he agrees with DRMs. There was an inteview about this but I don't remember where did I get it from

Then he has the same position as me and other "drm defenders" in this thread. That whether you like DRM or not, it has a right to exist. You can choose not to use it. You want to take that choice away from everyone else.

[EmilyRose]

I really didn't mind iTunes or the DRM thing... untill I moved to linux. Now it bugs me for the simple reason that I can't play it on my computer. Sure, its still on my iPod and I was able to put it onto my computer, but I can't play it. If they'd just allow you to play it on whatever, I'd not mind in the least the other restrictions...

[Sunflower1970]

It didn't bug me all that much, either. I don't have an iPod, so I would just make CD's with the files I had bought, then just re-rip them. (I really can't tell the difference in quality so it was a non-issue for me...) In the end, I stopped using iTunes because I couldn't upgrade to their newest version because it kept crashing on me. I was "stuck" with version 6.x.

[BarfBag]

If this works out and FairPlay becomes more relaxed, I think someone should make a deal with Apple to write a version of iTunes for Linux. Who cares if it's closed source - if you use Ubuntu you use a little closed source anyway. I dislike DRM as much as you guys, but we don't have a legal way to download music.

[Old Pink]

Then he has the same position as me and other "drm defenders" in this thread. That whether you like DRM or not, it has a right to exist. You can choose not to use it. You want to take that choice away from everyone else.

Yes, but if you were to ask semi-frequent iTunes Music Store users if they were in any way unhappy with the store, or songs downloaded from the store, chances are they'd say "No", not many people actually know of the DRM.

[NoWhereMan]

Then he has the same position as me and other "drm defenders" in this thread. That whether you like DRM or not, it has a right to exist.

"Right" it's not the correct word.

You can choose not to use it. You want to take that choice away from everyone else.

Yes, that's true. But he's not saying it has a "right" to exist, but just that - as it exist - he should let people use it (even though not encouraged), and not force them to do not, for instance making the kernel gplv3

btw, here's the link
http://www.builderau.com.au/news/soa/DRM_GPLv3_just_hot_air_Linus_Torvalds/0,339028227,339273084,00.htm

bye :)

[Kateikyoushi]

Yeah baby yeah, the bigger this grows the better for us. I really hope they get banned and it extend to the whole EU or even more.
My girlfriend bought plenty of songs without knowing about DRM didn't get any warning or proper explanation what is it.

By the way yes Itunes is one of the worst commercial softare, hate it espcially when it burns coasters.

[glabouni]

that's wrong... Linus DID NOT side with DRM, he just doesn't want his kernel to force you not to use DRM'ed stuff, but this is fairly different from saying that he agrees with DRMs. There was an inteview about this but I don't remember where did I get it from.

My bad, my wording wasn't clear enough. I made a mistake in using the verb "side". I used it in response to a previous post.
What I meant was "Linus is not siding with anti-DRM". But that does not impply he's siding with DRM. My wording was incorrect.
It would be more exact to say he's not siding at all, or that he's siding for the freedom to use DRM if one wish to do so.

I don't know of the interview you're talking of, but I know of this message posted a few years ago on linux kernel mailing list titled "Flame Linus to a crisp!" :

Ok,
there's no way to do this gracefully, so I won't even try. I'm going to
just hunker down for some really impressive extended flaming, and my
asbestos underwear is firmly in place, and extremely uncomfortable.

I want to make it clear that DRM is perfectly ok with Linux!

There, I've said it. I'm out of the closet. So bring it on...

And like the software patent issue, I also don't necessarily like DRM
myself, but I still ended up feeling the same: I'm an "Oppenheimer", and I
refuse to play politics with Linux, and I think you can use Linux for
whatever you want to - which very much includes things I don't necessarily
personally approve of.


full text available here:
http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/linux/linux-kernel/2003-16/1069.html


another reference to DRM:


I think a lot of people may find that the GPLv3 'anti-DRM' measures aren't all that wonderful after all.
Digital signatures and cryptography aren't just 'bad DRM.' They very much are 'good security' too.
Babies and bathwater..
http://www.ussg.iu.edu/hypermail/linux/kernel/0602.0/0498.html

[dvarsam]

i disagree with this strongly. if you don't want apple's DRM, simply don't buy from them. that's consumer choice. freedom is great.

You seem to disagree.
But have you thought of the case where:

Everybody is following apple's path & you end up buying from... nowhere!!!...?

So, IMHO this is good!
Companies should not impose too many limitations on the customers!
Just keep things nice & clean dude!

Thanks.

[dvarsam]

What about the users who have spent hundreds of dollars on this digital music, innocently assuming that they own it, and then realize that all they bought is the right to play music in iTunes or their iPod. What if they later want to switch music players? What if Apple itself stops supporting this format one day? (Don't laugh, this has already happened with Plays For Sure and the Zune!)

Those users didn't do their research. That's their fault. Thems the breaks, you live and learn.

So you are saying that lets say a 15 year old or a 65 year old person should perform a research before purchasing?
How about this:

Attention to all users:
Before purchasing .mp4 (or whatever) make sure your make a research from beforehand!
When you finish with your research don't forget to write a THESIS of 100 pages please!!!

Only after all that you are eligible to purchase the right product...

Thanks.

P.S.1> BTW, after your THESIS is complete, IF you decide to download from Apple's iTunes, will be sent (by post) your .mp4 Bachelors Degree at your home address. You will be also considered an Apple's iTunes Store Graduate, and you can be eligible for Doctorate... school! :lol:

P.S.2> Don't forget to provide your Last Name & Filrst Name correctly cause you don't want them printed wrongly on your Bachelors Degree, iTunes is so kind to send it to you by post!

[NoWhereMan]

Everybody is following apple's path & you end up buying from... nowhere!!!...?

you called? :lol:

[mrbiscuit]

This is just a me thing, but my business teacher told me last year that when you buy software or digital media, you don't really buy it, but you buy the right to use it. So in theory, wouldn't DRM be illegal, unless it was free :P

[mrwooster]

I have to agree - I have purchased several songs off itunes and cannot yet play them when running linux.

[zenwhen]

I blogged about this tonight.

Click Here. (http://www.zenwhen.com/?p=34).

[pmq]

Sorry apple, but us linux folk are in a bit of a pickle and would be glad to see the back of DRM.
I had an experience a few years ago.

I bought an album in virgin mega store and i wanted to play the cd on my laptop, rip it, then put it on my mp3 player at the time.

Upon closing the disk tray, immediately i get a prompt, saying "a disk drive with the capability of burning cds has been discovered, unable to continue media disk". After this was another prompt forcing me to install the media player on the disk to play the songs.

This was a sony distributed album.

I was so p!ssed, i emailed sony demanding to get what i payed for. So they sent me out a pre-addressed envelope and i posted the cd along with proof of purchase.

A few (business) days later, i got my cd and proof of purchase returned to me. As soon as i entered the disk into my computer, i had access to all the music files, any and all protection had been removed, along with that crap software media player they provided.

This was a long time ago, i think the sony distribution company have changed a bit since then, as i havent heard much about it in recent news. I for one havent bought anything from them since.

To my disappointment apple have been rolling down that same route for a long time, we as customers have paid for the songs, we deserve the right to do with them as we wish.

pmq

[Mateo]

Terrible. Enforcing ideology = orwellian.

[Mateo]

So you are saying that lets say a 15 year old or a 65 year old person should perform a research before purchasing?

Perhaps there should be a small warning present, but in general it's not a business' responsibility to idiot-proof their products. If you are too lazy/stupid to properly understand what you are purchasing, that's you problem.

[LaRoza]

Terrible. Enforcing ideology = orwellian.

You have it backwards I think, they are giving control to the people, not a small group. Anti-orwellian.

[Mateo]

You have it backwards I think, they are giving control to the people, not a small group. Anti-orwellian.

No they aren't. They are banning iTunes. That means I, a person and not a small group, am not allowed to use iTunes if I live in Norway. When the government starts getting into where people can download music, that's Orwellian.

[zmjjmz]

No, they are not "banning iTunes"
Rather, they are telling Apple to let people easily remove the DRM or remove it altogether or anything that allows you to use your music from the iTunes store on any music player.