Announcing Ubuntu Women

[panickedthumb]

So I have my hands full lately don't I? ;)

This forum section is for Ubuntu Women, a group designed to make women feel more comfortable in the Ubuntu Community and the Linux Community at large. It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.

This project is being worked on by Tsjoklat, kassetra, and myself.
Yes, I know I'm missing some anatomy to be an Ubuntu woman myself, but the group is not for only women, but for people who want to see an increase in women to the community. Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.

[defkewl]

So what projects do you have for these women? I know there are already some women in forum.

[panickedthumb]

yes, there are some, but some of them have said that they know many other female linux users who just aren't comfortable with the community because of the sexist attitude on some forums, etc. I haven't seen much of that here. But this exists so that women can know that someone is looking out for them, and knowing that they have the support of the community, to make them feel more comfortable with contributing.

[bored2k]

That's a nice idea. *puts on wig*
In a couple of months I think this idea will make every other linux forum make a " -name.the.distro- Women". It would be nice to get some of the females tell the story on how they found UBuntu/Linux.

[Tracey Lowndes]

As a woman using Ubuntu, I like this idea!

Tracey Lowndes.

[void_false]

It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.
Hm... So the rest of the community aint only males. ;-)

[panickedthumb]

Hm... So the rest of the community aint only males. ;-)
Not exactly sure what you mean, but what I mean is, this isn't something we want to have so that women will come to THIS section and this section only. We want to appeal mostly to those women who use Ubuntu but haven't joined in the community yet BUT we still want the women already here to be able to use our resources.

[void_false]

That was a joke. ;-)
NVM.

[henriette_holm]

Well, as a woman using Ubuntu I think this is a great idea. I'm normally happy enough asking my questions in the Ubuntu forums - because the answers I get a helpfull and people a generally polite.

BUT - and there is a but - looking in news groups and other forum web pages I have often found myself wondering how people can talk to each other like that. My most resent experience:

Women who use linux are ugly, aren't they? :wink:

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry :-?

- Henriette

[lilandra]

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry :-?

- Henriette

shake your head and be glad you're not that person?
and hope they weren't serious?

anywayz, isn't there a Debian Women group? Do other linux distros also have such groups also?

[kassetra]

I didn't know whether to laugh or cry :-?

I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:

Male supervisor: But you can't be the new IT admin!
Me: Why not? I'm Kassetra - I was hired, and here I am.
Male supervisor: Well, you're female - and you don't look like a man!

gah.

[kassetra]

anywayz, isn't there a Debian Women group? Do other linux distros also have such groups also?

Yes, there is a Debian Women's group - but none of the other distros, as far as I can tell, have a group devoted to Women.

[XDevHald]

I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:


gah.
Pfft, tell them to put it where the light of day won't ever be shown.

IT women are awesome, they're bright, focused than more males in the IT work space. So to top it off, Women can do the brain work that probably some men can't do.

You'd be surprised!

[lilandra]

I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:


Male supervisor: But you can't be the new IT admin!
Me: Why not? I'm Kassetra - I was hired, and here I am.
Male supervisor: Well, you're female - and you don't look like a man!

gah.

so, if you were a female who looked like a man, it would have been okay?

*interesting*

aha! maybe i can direct my sister here too to ask questions and such :)

[Stormy Eyes]

I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:


gah.

There are far too many males who don't deserve to be called "men".

[kassetra]

so, if you were a female who looked like a man, it would have been okay?

Apparently, if I had been a really ugly woman or a man, it would have been ok - as it was, I was neither of those two choices.

We'd be happy to chat with your sister too! :)

[Ali_Baba]

I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:


gah.

That isnt right,i think it might be because there aren't very much woman admins. That kind of attitude isn't going to help,hope things will change on the future :)

[banjobacon]

Yes, there is a Debian Women's group - but none of the other distros, as far as I can tell, have a group devoted to Women.

KDE has a KDE Women: http://women.kde.org/

It's not a distro, but it's something.

[fog]

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

[lilandra]

Apparently, if I had been a really ugly woman or a man, it would have been ok - as it was, I was neither of those two choices.

We'd be happy to chat with your sister too! :)

tsk tsk

my sis will say i don't know linux and shouldn't subject people to my testing phases...if she'd only learn the command line

but...i have millions of questions to ask so i will go look for the right forums and start asking :)

nice meeting y'all :)

[panickedthumb]

Great to have you on board lilandra!

[lilandra]

thanks panickedthumb!!

[jsgotangco]

Liitle bit of trivia: with Breezy under way, we have a woman in helm as project manager: JaneW. Yes, she uses a nasty whip [-X

[viedzma]

Hi all. I'm a female user of ubuntu too :] I hope to see more linuxchix here and wherever they can be.
Recently i've joined a group of linux users from my city... and there is only one female more... ;P We hope to have more linuxchix in our group ;]

[Brian McConnell]

Pfft, tell them to put it where the light of day won't ever be shown.

IT women are awesome, they're bright, focused than more males in the IT work space. So to top it off, Women can do the brain work that probably some men can't do.

You'd be surprised!
OFFENSIVE!
I take no issue in the praise of contributions of others, but to do so by using stereotypes wont help get this forum more support. This isn't a male vs female thing. Your statements could easily be gender reversed and you'd derserve the same response as the one I'm providing.
Try reading this:
IT men are awesome, they're bright, focused than more females in the IT work space. So to top it off, men can do the brain work that probably some women can't do.
My friend, I understand the intent of your statement was to praise the contributions of females in the IT workplace. However, it's not necessary to put one down in order to praise another.

[lilandra]

hiya

have you joined the linuxchix email groups too?

if only i'd found it three years ago :)

[kassetra]

hiya

have you joined the linuxchix email groups too?

if only i'd found it three years ago :)

I did ages ago, but I should probably update my info. :)

[Chaniston]

I guess I'm just looking for some reassurance from other people who are using it, and who aren't biased like my boyfriend!

First let me say welcome. Then let me say the honest truth- we are all a little biased too. But there is a reason for our string bias.

No spyware, no viruses. I leave my Ubuntu box naked on my cable link (would nuke my xp machine). Programs are free and fellow users are nice.Our knowledge base will here covers lots of thing people want to do with computers. If you have por-linux friends, they can help you (this is biggest barrier for people not in your shoes)

There are problems though. Some are hardware doesn't work. Windows programs won't run in Linux (except for a few that are kind of forced onto Linux with WINE, and programs on both platforms). It will proabably mess up your computer warenty.

Either way...its all good!

[scourge]

Welcome Chaniston.

I haven't yet made the transfer to Ubuntu cos I'm a tiny bit paranoid about going into the unknown.

You should try the Live-CD, that way you can find out what Ubuntu is like without installing anything on your 'puter.


I guess I'm just looking for some reassurance from other people who are using it, and who aren't biased like my boyfriend!

Yeah, this is such a great place for getting unbiased opinions ;-)
Me, I think Ubuntu like totally ownz all the other OSes.

[scourge]

Okay, now I'm confused. Did Poofy just overwrite Chaniston's post with his own reply to Chaniston?

[allforcarrie]

Interesting.

[Chaniston]

Could the overwriting of my message be anything to do with the fact that I posted a message whilst using Windows? :???: Incidentally, is the W-word a swear word in these circles?

[scourge]

Could the overwriting of my message be anything to do with the fact that I posted a message whilst using Windows?

It sure is tempting to blame this on Microsoft, but nah, I think it has more to do with Poofy clicking the wrong button ("Edit" instead of "Reply").


Incidentally, is the W-word a swear word in these circles?

It is! Dubya has a secret plan to make all free software illegal, I just know it!! *mouth foaming* ...oh, you mean the other W-word, okay. No, it's not a swear word, we talk about Windows all the time here.

[Liz]

hello everyone,

i went to a slug meeting in november of 2004, when jeff waugh gave a talk about ubuntu. (it hadnt quite gone into public release then, but was very close). i liked what i saw. saturday i went to an installfest at my local uni, and a another guy gave a demo on ubuntu. I asked for a copy, and installed it right then and there. I havent used anything else since. Ive installed it on my sons machine, (cause he doesnt have a choice) and hes using it too. as long as it can do what he wants it to do (download music, listen to music, find skateboarding pics and talk to his friends) hes happy !

im happy cause hes not getting virus from his friends who dont know any better about virus etc...im happy hes not complaining that his pc is crashing or giving him blue screens of death.

now if i can just get my neverwinter nights game installed, ill be the happiest woman alive ! .hehe

welcome to all the ladies on the ubuntu forums.

[BWF89]

now if i can just get my neverwinter nights game installed, ill be the happiest woman alive ! .hehe
I think that you either have to 1. Download some kind of binary off their website like with Doom III or 2. Use a Windows to Linux videogame emulator called Cedega.

[Liz]

I think that you either have to 1. Download some kind of binary off their website like with Doom III or 2. Use a Windows to Linux videogame emulator called Cedega.
i have cedega, and tried to install nwn that way..its not working right ...it does the wizard installing thing..right up to "please type in your cd serial code"..and then i lose that little window..cant type anything in it....anyway, ive mentioned that little problem in another thread.

right now im downloading the linux version of nwn ...and gonna see about getting that going ...

[Liz]

right now im downloading the linux version of nwn ...and gonna see about getting that going ...

well it works !!.
its updated, ive got all relevant packages installed..and its going great !
so pleased.
now..diablo 2 is next !

[Stormy Eyes]

Liz, I was just going to suggest the Linux client at nwn.bioware.com, but it looks like you found it for yourself. Have fun playing. If you want to play online, I recommend Exaria (http://www.exaria.net) if you want a good RP-oriented server. I used to play there myself for a while.

[Synner]

OFFENSIVE!
I take no issue in the praise of contributions of others, but to do so by using stereotypes wont help get this forum more support. This isn't a male vs female thing. Your statements could easily be gender reversed and you'd derserve the same response as the one I'm providing.
Try reading this:
IT men are awesome, they're bright, focused than more females in the IT work space. So to top it off, men can do the brain work that probably some women can't do.
My friend, I understand the intent of your statement was to praise the contributions of females in the IT workplace. However, it's not necessary to put one down in order to praise another.


Anybody else find it odd that this went 2 months without the slightest bit of acknowledgement?

Ladies, welcome. I'm sure you'll finda home here as helpful as anything you've ever come across before, and we don't judge here. As far as we're concerned, you don't even have to go as far as to divulge your gender....but if you wish, it's up to you. Regardless, I'm happy to see so many women here that "don't fit the stereotype."

[Sherlock]

An interesting idea, and one I am happy to climb out of the woodwork for. First post on these forums :smile:

I'm new to Ubuntu, having only been using it for a little over a month and so far am loving it. I was using SuSe before but had no end of problems and my boyfriend suggested I try Ubuntu instead. He thought it would be far more workable for me. It did not take much persuasion. SuSe was annoying me intently. He uses Gentoo, but was really taken with this distro when he installed it.

Yes, I know I'm missing some anatomy to be an Ubuntu woman myself, but the group is not for only women, but for people who want to see an increase in women to the community. Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.

As a not particularly techy person (I understate here ;-) ) these forums have been a great help so far and I have been able to browse and read and find help and answers. Friendly place also.

I don't use my computer for work, its all for personal stuff. Photography, music, writing, websites etc, and my knowledge is limited. So its a relief to find a place where I can venture and learn more. As a woman using Linux, and not being as computer literate as many, (to give you an idea, I only started using a computer at home when more or less confined to the house during the Foot and mouth outbreak in the UK a few years back. I am an outdoorsy nature type of person by rights) I find myself continually baffled and bemused. I also worry about how I may come over when asking for help. I'm far from stupid, but find myself struggling with many things tech wise. Computers have been a continual source of frustration for me, but I refuse to give up.


I am wary of posting, simply due to my lack of knowledge. For some reason being female seems to compound my worry. Daft I know but it can be somewhat daunting. But I want to learn and to understand. Hopefully I will find my feet here posting wise. And I am sure if I can't find the answer I am looking for, or indeed the Q that needs to preceed it, I shall be asking away.

[Liz]

I'm new to Ubuntu, having only been using it for a little over a month and so far am loving it. I was using SuSe before but had no end of problems and my boyfriend suggested I try Ubuntu instead. He thought it would be far more workable for me. It did not take much persuasion. SuSe was annoying me intently. He uses Gentoo, but was really taken with this distro when he installed it.
.

welcome Sherlock ;)

[Liz]

An interesting idea, and one I am happy to climb out of the woodwork for. First post on these forums :smile:

I'm new to Ubuntu, having only been using it for a little over a month and so far am loving it. I was using SuSe before but had no end of problems and my boyfriend suggested I try Ubuntu instead. He thought it would be far more workable for me. It did not take much persuasion. SuSe was annoying me intently. He uses Gentoo, but was really taken with this distro when he installed it.



welcome Sherlock :)

[XDevHald]

OFFENSIVE!
I take no issue in the praise of contributions of others, but to do so by using stereotypes wont help get this forum more support. This isn't a male vs female thing. Your statements could easily be gender reversed and you'd derserve the same response as the one I'm providing.
Try reading this:
IT men are awesome, they're bright, focused than more females in the IT work space. So to top it off, men can do the brain work that probably some women can't do.
My friend, I understand the intent of your statement was to praise the contributions of females in the IT workplace. However, it's not necessary to put one down in order to praise another.
You deffinently read that wrong and probably didn't see the above post ;)

Originally Posted by kassetra
I have been fighting that stereotype for well over fifteen years now. The first day of my first big IT job went something like this:


gah.


My post was moving with kassetra's post in which was saying that it doesn't matter who the sex is that is stereotyping, you have women out there saying that women don't need to be doing this stuff, believe me, they're out there.

Women still have the same rights as men do to do these kinds of things such as IT Administration and etc.

The post was based on both sides of sex, not towards men only.

Thank You.

EDIT: After realizing what you posted here: IT men are awesome, they're bright, focused than more females in the IT work space. So to top it off, men can do the brain work that probably some women can't do.

I asked myself if you're saying that men can do more than women..so I said, maybe he is right, but can women do more than men can do, yes they can and probably a lot damn better. I am a male and live with a lot of females, and bro, I can not tell you the things they can do with their mind(s) that I cannot do. You need to realize that we're all equal in Gods eyes no matter what the gender is or lifestyle we bring.

Everyone has their strengths and weeknesses, and women these days and even way back in the day could do things that MOST men could not do, even if it's not muscle wise, the brain can do awesome things that we guys don't know about in women.

Thank You.

[Old *ix Geek]

Great idea! I just recently installed Ubuntu and joined its message boards, but as my ID implies I've been an *ix geek for a long time--since the mid-'80s actually. Started programming and system administration on Tandy Xenix! I've been the programmer/sysadmin at two companies in the past [almost] 20 years, and my gender never hindered me or had any other negative effect, but I was aware--especially in the early days--that I was the exception, not the rule, in computing.

--

Registered Linux user #163544

[BinaryDigit]

Hey people \\:D/ Just wanted to officially say hello in this thread..been posting other places except here :D

[urbandryad]

hewwo. :3 I finally got ubuntu working on my iBook so I think its safe to call myself a female -Linux- user now. XD As opposed to a female -Windows- user! XD I can think of many reasons why a women's forum are awesome. I post heavily in Video game boards, and one of the recent OFF-TOPIC threads has guys posting their favourite 'clothed' picturse of sexy women up, and they tell us girls who post to the thread to make our own Hot guys thread. (which misses the point of trying to keep sexualized threads like that off of a video game board where 13 year olds and children may actually be connecting. ^^; The forum is run by a teen guy though, so there's nothing I can do about it really.

But yeah, I see good reasons to have a forum like this. :3

[simira]

I just found this subforum, and was really surprised. I am one of the not many (but definitely increasing) women involved in Ubuntu.
I participated on the Ubuntu Mataro Sessions, and wrote an article about Women and linux after that. I am fairly surprised that some women are not comfortable in the Ubuntu community. I feel equal to any member, developer, LoCo-member, or other people in the Ubuntu Community.
It's not a bad thing working towards getting more women into using linux. Debian-Women and Linux-chicks, among many local and national teams, are working on the same. But I also see the need of women trying to integrate more, and not separating, like some teams like this do.
For example, I don't see anyone on the #ubuntu-women channel that I have seen on any of the other ubuntu-channels (except from #Ubuntu , where there's too many to notice). Instead, I notice there are very few women on #ubuntu-devel (where I hang around although I'm not a developer), #ubuntu-meeting, or the laptop testing team, or launchpad, which are the parts where I am engaged within Ubuntu, and where I feel that I get a lot of good contact and discussions with other Ubuntu people. Hope too see more of you there in time!
I would also like to know exactly *what* makes women feel uncomfortable or less accepted/equal in the Ubuntu community. I definitely don't...

[Wide]

This is a very cool addition to the forums


I'll direct my wife here for questions


:cool:

[geekchic9]

Hi, Simira!

I mostly hang out on #ubuntuforums and #ubuntu-women, if you are wondering. I will try some of those other channels you are suggesting.

I feel like I'm an equal to any other person in the Ubuntu community. I just don't think some people feel like I am their equal, because I am female. I have encountered mockery and sexism because I am female. It is frustrating, and I want to help change that.

[valczir]

You deffinently read that wrong and probably didn't see the above post ;)



My post was moving with kassetra's post in which was saying that it doesn't matter who the sex is that is stereotyping, you have women out there saying that women don't need to be doing this stuff, believe me, they're out there.

Women still have the same rights as men do to do these kinds of things such as IT Administration and etc.

The post was based on both sides of sex, not towards men only.

Thank You.

Actually, he was stating that you were being reverse-stereotypical. What that post meant is that you shouldn't say that women are better than men (which you did), just as you shouldn't say men are better than women.

EDIT:[/b] After realizing what you posted here:

I asked myself if you're saying that men can do more than women..so I said, maybe he is right, but can women do more than men can do, yes they can and probably a lot damn better. I am a male and live with a lot of females, and bro, I can not tell you the things they can do with their mind(s) that I cannot do. You need to realize that we're all equal in Gods eyes no matter what the gender is or lifestyle we bring.

Everyone has their strengths and weeknesses, and women these days and even way back in the day could do things that MOST men could not do, even if it's not muscle wise, the brain can do awesome things that we guys don't know about in women.

Thank You.

My theory on this topic does not belong in a topic where women don't want to find sexist remarks. Most women agree with my theory - in fact, more men disagree than women - however, some may misunderstand, and I'd rather not state anything that may be understood as offensive.

So, all I can say is: Yes, I'm sure that most of them are more intelligent than you are. In fact, I doubt any of them aren't. However, don't include the rest of us in that statement.

Men can be intelligent, women can be strong. When stating a theory, use more than one subject as test matter.

-Valc

P.S. If you are referring to grades in school/college(university) when speaking of females being more intelligent, that does fit with my theory. However, it does not mean that they are more intelligent, nor less.

P.P.S. To any females who dislike this reply, please ignore it. I do not tend to offend you, but he is being severely simple minded (as, I am sure, you can see). If you would like me to explain myself, you may email or PM me at any time, and I will be more than glad to explain myself and/or apologize for my behavior.

[LinuxSwede]

I'd just like to point out that there is no such thing as reversed sexism or reversed sterotypical, it's sexism and stereotypical no matter at whom it's directed.

[xyz]

Women tend to understand better lack of knowledge and desire to learn and can take more time explaining things.Men tend to assume that as a man one should already know (the good odl...Come on,man!).
I must admit that Ubuntuforums is,in that sense,very different esp. from similar French sites which I happen to visit from time to time.As a total newbie,I feel I can post 'the most stupidest question' here to a man...or a woman!

[vampire_janus]

this is liberating (but still not reverse sexism)..

[limit223]

Just I've got just some words for everyone here:

Hello from 'hobbyst' linuxist woman :)

I'm coming from different distro "planets" and I enjoyed most of advices/ how-to's from this forum. Found it as a nice treasure for my future hobby plans. Hope I will be listened in my problems, not neglected in my given advices as will be provided from an oposite gendre experience.

All my best for my new "home" !

[psloper]

just thought id say ive given my dear old mum a linux box and its running Ubuntu
and shes getting on fine with it i thought to myself what can i give her that will be less hastle than a windows machine ... so lets hope it all rolls along and keeps its going hope you dont mind me posting im also using it and find it great

[limit223]

just thought id say ive given my dear old mum a linux box and its running Ubuntu
and shes getting on fine with it i thought to myself what can i give her that will be less hastle than a windows machine ... so lets hope it all rolls along and keeps its going hope you dont mind me posting im also using it and find it great


Well that's sound a little sarcastic...I've seen many grandpa's don't know open up a computer ...
psloper, for sure you'll be a knowledged grandpa who'll know more than that ..:D

[BSDFreak]

Women tend to understand better lack of knowledge and desire to learn and can take more time explaining things.Men tend to assume that as a man one should already know (the good odl...Come on,man!).

$500 says that if i said anything that stereotypical regarding women in this forum i would be banned.

I must admit that Ubuntuforums is,in that sense,very different esp. from similar French sites which I happen to visit from time to time.As a total newbie,I feel I can post 'the most stupidest question' here to a man...or a woman!

True, the tone here is very different, except the newbies who have learned how vi works who enter community chat and start talking about how bad Windows it (all while running a pirated version of XP and pirated games).

[BSDFreak]

Well that's sound a little sarcastic...I've seen many grandpa's don't know open up a computer ...
psloper, for sure you'll be a knowledged grandpa who'll know more than that ..:D

I doubt it's sarcastic, a well configured *nix box (preferably runnin proactive security systems like selinux or an OpenBSD box) will give the user a lot less headaches.

A grandma or grandpa doesn't NEED to tinker with his computer, he wants to use it and wants it to work and a well configured *nix box (BSD securelevel 3) won't and can't be tinkered with and it's never needed.

[Aithnea]

I just wanted to say that I'm still alittle new to Linux, Ubuntu and the forums, but I'm loving every bit of it so far. I'm glad that we have this little community here and other women to look up to and ask questions.

[airtonix]

fact: the bundle of nevers that connect the two hemispheres of the brain are upto ten times thicker in women than men. this accounts for many females ability to multi-task.

fact: the retina generally has two types of "light receptors" one for colours/detail the other for movement/peripheral. So, generally...Men have more colour receptors than movement receptors, and women have more movement receptors than colour/detail receptors.

fact:
everyone begins androgenous neither female nor male. it is during the first six weeks of a babys existance that the brain begins to wire up as either male or female. but not directly because of genes, but because of the hormones that are being released via gene commands. so if someone is born with a mis-configured liver or kideny then the hormone delivery during those first six weeks most probably will be affected, thus altering the gender set out by the gene-template provided by both parents.

when the brain is formed it's basic layout, the body begins to define the physical icon of its seed-gender.

My point:
People who get caught up in their security blanket of sub-culture elitism the us and them syndrome are fooling themselves that they are aware of the current set of events that shape our gestalt conciousness.

Remove the class war and stop the hate!!! Ubuntu rocks...ergo people rock!!!

[m.vanderpoel]

This is a very cool addition to the forums


I'll direct my wife here for questions


:cool:

You'll *direct* your wife?

Either my english is slipping (it's not my first language) or I .... well never mind.
Sounds familiair :???:

This is what I've come accross a lot the past years. Even more so when talking computers (or reading, for that matter).
It is *luckely not* my first impression of the Ubuntu-community, I am happy to add.

You know what, it has caused me to hide my identity (gender-wise) or to just lurke or to stick to an all-women-computersite http://womenontheweb.nl, and I don't particularly feel good about that.

So how about this:
- is there a way I can change my username into my full-name (or first name, if that's too long a name)?
- how about if more women 'got out of the closet' and became visible, solely by using their real names? (it used to be good practice in the Open Source Community, according to Eric Raymond).

Hi, I'm Marlies van der Poel. I'm very happy with Ubuntu, after having tried Mandrake and Fedora. I guess I don't have to explain why. I'm an end-user, very much interested in what computers can do, in webdesign, graphical work, writing and helping others (mostly older people) getting started with their computer -- most often Windows, but I *do* tell them about open source and -the way Ubuntu is going- I'm going to suggest them Ubuntu in a little while :)
I am preparing to start contributing to Ubuntu (first have to get acquainted with DocBook and Subversion, so I read on the DocumentationTeam's site.

Hope to be meeting you here and all-over the Ubuntu-grounds!

Greetings, Marlies.

[BinaryDigit]

I am sure that by "direct", Wide meant to "show" his wife this forum. Don't read into it too much :)
I choose a screen name that isn't my name, since I wanted an anonymous login type thing. Not so much to hide that I'm male or female, I just happened to pick this name on one forum (linuxcult.com) and now use it for tons of other sites (even my own, binarydigit.net).

[m.vanderpoel]

Thanx BinaryDigit,

Maybe this 'direct'-thing has to do with translation. My first language is Dutch. In Dutch it definitly wouldn't sound right.
As far as using one's real-life name is concerned: It is not so much the hiding that I'd like to stress, it's the visibilaty. I think there are many more women active then is generally assumed. I'd like us to be more visible.

Greetz, Marlies.

[LinuxKid]

I think that anyone no matter what their religion or sex should ever be thought of as lower than someone else

If I even were to see that I would immediately report it

It's just not right!

anyway, great idea! and it's nice to see the women finally come out and feel free to talk like everyone else

[RavenOfOdin]

Sigh. . .

All of you who think either that women only exist to do housework and make babies, or think in step with an agenda which I can only describe as heavily liberal and/or P.C. (the latter of which I consider totally Communist) need to step back, stop whining, and take a good LONG look at yourselves as well as the world around you.

Shoving your collective heads in the sand with regard to facts and stereotypes (the latter of which ARE earned, believe it or not!!) isn't going to help ANYONE!

Flame/harass/threaten me for these views if you will.

That being said, anything which is relevant to Ubuntu is good in my book!

[TLE]

and stereotypes (the latter of which ARE earned, believe it or not!!)
Ehh, all right, I'll chose NOT to believe you on that one.

[nealklomp]

so much on this thread...
the essence of humanity is paradox. men and women are the same and completely alien. both statements are entirely true.
it is wonderful.
of course, neither are better.
I'm coming to believe that for the first time since the age of the Mother Dona of pre-civilization the feminine is beginning to rise. Not yet, but soon. Personally I would be happy impregnating, doing physical labor and reading a bit, taking care of kids.

The main thing is that I am happy to see that there are women into something that is of interest to me. It suggests that on a 'hook up' intiative this is not a complete waste of energy.

*joke*

no the main thing is that I am very pleased to see a space created for the feminine intellect.

I tell you what, Micro-Soft is one heck of a phallocentric entity.

Steve seems wrong in some ways, in that the dominant sex cannot complain of inequity of chauvinism, yet his point is validly cautionary and goes to the heart of feminism's essential flaw. Feminist philosophy has largely functioned as a Mask to the male's position.

the "i'll direct my wife" bit is spooky.

anyway, this is a call to action: too much of thinking is from the head of man, let linux be the place where the feminine mind is fully present.

or maybe this is all from the Shiraz i'm drinking...

[Etoile]

Brand new (as in yesterday) Ubuntu user here, with girl parts. So glad to see this forum!

[starchildmom]

One more lady user here. From my username it is pretty obvious that I am a mom too. They are both boys, but my kids are also using Ubuntu. My 9yo likes it so much that he keeps using the homeschool lab computer (where we test all kinds of stuff) with Edubuntu instead of his much faster, much better monitor, XP box. I am guessing he will want to install Edubuntu on that machine too.

I am working on getting my laptop de-Windowed, but I still have some drivers to get working. More a matter of time than anything else. I already have the needed information thanks to these forums.

[superchar42]

Yet another female here! My aunt does sysadmin work for the army, so I guess it's genetic! haha. I'm loving ubuntu and it's a whole lot of fun.
Still I'd like to see more standard unix commands in it though. That was one reason why I stuck with slackware for so long. But then I got sick of fighting with it, and the community wasn't as warm as this one is.

[Gracye]

Another female here :) I just installed Linux 2 days ago (well ok technically last night if you don't count the 3 times I messed up my partitions :P) and I LOVE it. I absolutely love Linux.

I'm only using Windows as a dual boot because I canot live without my Photoshop and ImageReady. I've tried Gimp but I am a Photoshop Girl! (I've tried running PS through wine but it won't work for some reason, it gets installed and then it won't run)

*ahem*

I'm usually not this bubbly but it's 3am and I'm surviving off very little sleep.

Anyways, I've figured out how to install things through the Terminal but I'm still having trouble installing tar.gz files from my Desktop. Is there a tutorial on here about that? I've googled it and searched everywhere but I can't get it to work. Although most programs that I've wanted have a deb file so it works out ok. But I want to be able to learn how to do it the other way just incase.

ALright, I'm done blabbering on. Just wanted to say hi and then I started rambling...

[henriquemaia]

http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/

Nice suggestion, thanks. I was reading it to my girlfriend and we had a very interesting discussion about this.

[ChrisD]

OFFENSIVE!
I take no issue in the praise of contributions of others, but to do so by using stereotypes wont help get this forum more support. This isn't a male vs female thing. Your statements could easily be gender reversed and you'd derserve the same response as the one I'm providing.
Try reading this:
IT men are awesome, they're bright, focused than more females in the IT work space. So to top it off, men can do the brain work that probably some women can't do.
My friend, I understand the intent of your statement was to praise the contributions of females in the IT workplace. However, it's not necessary to put one down in order to praise another.

Well said, my thoughts exactly.

[xyz]

Another female here :) I just installed Linux 2 days ago (well ok technically last night if you don't count the 3 times I messed up my partitions :P) and I LOVE it. I absolutely love Linux.

I'm only using Windows as a dual boot because I canot live without my Photoshop and ImageReady. I've tried Gimp but I am a Photoshop Girl! (I've tried running PS through wine but it won't work for some reason, it gets installed and then it won't run)

*ahem*

I'm usually not this bubbly but it's 3am and I'm surviving off very little sleep.

Anyways, I've figured out how to install things through the Terminal but I'm still having trouble installing tar.gz files from my Desktop. Is there a tutorial on here about that? I've googled it and searched everywhere but I can't get it to work. Although most programs that I've wanted have a deb file so it works out ok. But I want to be able to learn how to do it the other way just incase.

ALright, I'm done blabbering on. Just wanted to say hi and then I started rambling...

Hi Gracye,

Well, here is another male who shares your appreciation of Linux! I'm also having a great time with it and things are sinking in little by little.
Over time, I became more 'patient' with it and therefore learning's made easier. Days ago, I tried to internet upgrade to Dapper and nothing was working anymore. After I don't remember how many attempts at reinstalling Breezy from CD and I don't remember how many "error this" and "error that", it finally worked again this morning. Don't ask me how it happenned because, to my beginner's knowledge, I reinstalled pretty much the same way every single time I gave it a shot! Mystery...mystery!!
About your little tar.gz pbm, try the link below. I found it pretty clear and straightfoward.
http://monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing/

Keep on enjoying!
Bye for now.

[Dural]

Hello. I've been lurking here for some time and posting every now and then. I'm a beginner to Linux and after trying Knoppix 2 years ago, I decided to try Linux. After going through several distros (Gentoo, RedHat, and Mandrake), I searched google and saw Ubuntu. As a teenager and as a girl who is interested in computers and I'm about to be a freshman in college. I know a little coding (C++, Java, Basic, and...Visual Basic.), but I really want to learn more so I can contribute. My parents do not fully understand computers, so learning Linux on the family computer can be a challenge, especially with my father; he is so set in his ways that he can never appreciate, nor try to understand anything different. He always buys computers from companies like HP despite all the problems we've had with them and he sneers at Linux and the idea of open-source even when I try to talk to him. It's really irritating sometimes.

[Abrii Doniger]

Wow, lots to read on this thread.
My nick is Abrii Doniger, abrii being the name I created off the top of my head while in character creation in Anarchy Online (an MMO I play) years ago. I've used that nick for a very long time in games, and inn writing for online fan sites as well as other facets of online games (I have been a Community Manager, and in game CS manager too for other games). My educational background is in computer sound/music and last I heard I am a woman :KS
I went from a Vic20 to a Samsung S330 to a Mac PPC (during my return to college) and then Windows machines. I much prefer Linux but untill recently it was far too time consuming imo to use, after seeing friends constantly going on and on about having to compile kernals...
Now I have Ubuntu running on a little P3 800, for 2 days now in fact, while my big monster computer still has WinXP pro for the online games to run on. Guess what, I'm using the lil one more lol
As to using a nick and not my real name for me it is just safer this way and stereotypes, bah, I let most stuff just roll off my back as life is too short to go letting things get to you all the time. This whole Politicaly Correct stuff is just one more pain in the butt.

Don't worry, be happy :-D

This is a great place, the whole forums, and much more friendly than any other I've seen.

AbriiD

[_chAos_]

... My parents do not fully understand computers, so learning Linux on the family computer can be a challenge, especially with my father; he is so set in his ways that he can never appreciate, nor try to understand anything different...

When i installed linux on the family pc here, i tried to make it as easy as possible to use, and let it look somewhat like windows. Shortcuts for the programs they use on their desktop, only 1 panel, no workspace switcher, their windows background, their windows documents etc. And they are all quiet happy about it. :)


Another thing: since a lot of linuxwomen in this topic seem to want it to be more obviuos that they are female, maybe it's a good idea to add the users' gender to the profile.

ps: In case this is written as bad as i think it is, i'm sorry, english isn't my native language. :D

[arjun.shankar]

Hi Women! (and men)

Nice to see a subforum meant to encourage women. I've been using GNU/Linux for a while now, and so, when my girlfriend got her first notebook, I handed her an Ubuntu CD (and a sticker ;)), which her father installed alongside Windows.

I would really love to see her leave Windows behind, and the fact that she never really has had her own computer till now (and therefore lacks the tendency that many people, who have had their share of Windows before discovering Linux have,to simply never boot into it because things are "so much easier!" in Windows) makes this a strong possibility. But she studies in a different city, and the only way I can help her out is on the phone or through IM. (We spent half an hour on the phone last night, getting her FAT partitions mounted, and she learnt nothing beause all I could do was recite commands she knew nothing about, word by word.)

Unfortunately, both of us can't hang around freenode (thanks to the squid servers running in both our institutes).

I would really like to get her started on learning quickly, first about computers, and then about Linux, and I am clueless about how to begin. I don't want her to get bored reading docs, and give up.

Any ideas?

[OldGaf]

Oh my....... I am going to be hated for this but, I got to be me!

I really don't like it when I see things "for woman" because women do not feel comfortable mixing with men for one reason or another. I think that it does more to separate the sexes then anything.

I have 3 daughters and 4 sons and I am bringing them all up the same way and teaching them that everyone is equal. We have been hearing that for ever now it seems.... treat everyone the same..... women need to be paid the same..... women can do any job a man can etc. Well, of coarse all these things should happen by default. We ARE all equal. The problem is that some men (and women) have not caught on to that yet. These are what we call sexist... the gender variant of racist.

Now, if we make "special" places for women to be "safe" in, we are just reinforcing the false belief that there IS a difference. Shouldn't we concentrate on making a forum like this a safe place for EVERONE?

As a side note, I never get a sense of gender when I am reading a post here..... how would you know if a post is from a male or female, and why would anyone care?

[-Phi-]

arjun.shankar: Try and explain strategies that she can use to solve her own issues, while still helping on specifics. Suggest she try Googleing errors she gets. Search these forums. And *shudder* skim documentation. It can't hurt.

If she is interested in learning about how to work her own computer, then she might enjoy finding answers. Suggest backing up important files too, then she won't have to be too worried about really messing it up :p

OldGaf: You're not the first person to express such sentiments. It seems a similar post is made every week or so. Read around in the various threads and you'll see some justifications for this forum. You might especially want to see some of aysiu's links.

- Phi

[nursegirl]

Several times in this section of the forum, it's mentioned that the goal of Ubuntu Women not to separate women from the rest of the community, but rather to support outreach efforts towards women. While there is some disagreement (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=48910) as to whether outreach to women is important, the organizers of Ubuntu Women have been careful to never duplicate things that are available in the general community. That's also why we (generally) don't do tech help either here or on the Ubuntu Women mailing list.

[OldGaf]

Hi -Phi-

"Read around in the various threads and you'll see some justifications for this forum. You might especially want to see some of aysiu's links."

I did a quick search on aysiu's links..... was there something in particular you thought I should see? They have allot of posts and all I found looked like good help on various problems people are having. When I searched this thread, I could not find any comments from aysiu.......

[aysiu]

Hi -Phi-

"Read around in the various threads and you'll see some justifications for this forum. You might especially want to see some of aysiu's links."

I did a quick search on aysiu's links..... was there something in particular you thought I should see? They have allot of posts and all I found looked like good help on various problems people are having. When I searched this thread, I could not find any comments from aysiu.......
I don't think I have any links in particular that have to do with this forum, but you're certainly welcome to read all of my posts in this forum (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=7314086).

[OldGaf]

I don't think I have any links in particular that have to do with this forum, but you're certainly welcome to read all of my posts in this forum (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/search.php?searchid=7314086).

LOL..... I don't think I have time!

[tubunu]

Another woman here.. :D

Have been using linux as my primary OS since 2004. Now I'm all into Ubuntu/Kubuntu.

[anasofiapaixao]

My first times in here were a little turbulent. I vented in a thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1149684#post1149684) about how many women don't know a **** about computers and don't care to, and how that drives me nuts; because before college, in those ages where - at least in Portugal - both genders don't truly mix up, when it came to computers I was all by myself, and seeing the prejudice (there is some). Of course I didn't put things the way I am doing here, as my post got censored.

When I read nocturn's PM, if I had a hole I would put myself inside. But after re-reading it countless times I realised he didn't notice I was a girl. He was thinking I was a guy who was just into being a sexist b****.

Actually, there are some things that were cut that looked harmless for me, but as I don't have a copy of the post I can't really check on that... [just found "the jail" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=200279&page=3). I am going to ask nocturn why he cut a part where I was talking about how guys tend to look less after a barbie-perfect girl, as there are few already].

Anyways of course I was harsh and the censor was somewhat deserved.

[-Phi-]

(re: aysiu and links) I was referring to links in the "why do we need women" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=48910) thread (I believe). Many are links to specific appropriate sections on this page (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/index.html). I don't necessarily suggest reading the whole thing any more than I'd suggest reading all of aysiu's posts :p However, I found reading bits and pieces to be interesting.

- Phi

[OldGaf]

(re: aysiu and links) I was referring to links in the "why do we need women" (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=48910) thread (I believe). Many are links to specific appropriate sections on this page (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/index.html). I don't necessarily suggest reading the whole thing any more than I'd suggest reading all of aysiu's posts :p However, I found reading bits and pieces to be interesting.

- Phi

Oh boy... (am I allowed to say that? ;) )

I read the page Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO but I have to be honest, it was a struggle. I didn't know if I should laugh or cry.... and I think that is the main problem for men these days.... we are being told how to act, think and feel about women, but it is always a different set of instructions.

<rant>

I find contradiction everywhere. It's like when you see a handicapped person approaching a door..... do I open the door and have them scream that they don't need my help or do I respect there independence and get bashed for being insensitive?

There seems to be allot of double standards against men coming from people who are complaining that there are too many double standers coming from men. (bah..... that one hurt to type! :-k )

How many times do I hear a bunch of women in the lunch room completely ripping thier husbands or boy friends apart.. and being quite loud about it. They seem to be immune to the types of respect rules that can have a man fired or sent to a "sensitivity" course. How many times have I heard of a woman fighting or suing to get onto a men’s sporting team or men’s club, but crying foul at the though of the opposite happening?

Now don't get me wrong, I am not saying that we poor men are hard done by. I know that the women in the lunch room are just blowing off steam or joking..... so what? that's what humans do all the time.... I mean listen to any standup comedian or watch any sitcom and its based on that.

Another thing is this whole thing about encouraging women to get into IT..... I don't get that either. My wife is a mainframe and web programmer / annalist. She is one because she decided she wanted to be one. She was not on the edge of the pool dabbing her toe in the water until the "men of IT" started chanting her name.

I could go on, but it's getting late and I have to pick up the kids and start supper.... My some what convoluted point is this: We are not all the same, but we can be all equal if we choose to be. I know it sounds simple, but really that’s what it takes.

.... fire at will.

</rant>

[-Phi-]

I agree with your rant. I don't like the double standards I see everywhere. There was a church group my family was in that was theoretically very liberal and "could talk about anything." However, it turned out that this "anything" meant anything other than saying anything remotely critical about women. Because that's sexist. Men are open targets.

Suffice to say we stopped going.

But let's see if I can explain more fluently why I think this forum should exist, or at least why I don't object to its existence.

Perhaps it's because I don't look at it as women needing to be pulled into this community for their own good, as much as this community needing all sorts of people, and women have been identified as being unrepresented even in comparison with computing in general. I don't know if "Ubuntu Women" increases interest or awareness (I actually doubt it has significant impact), but it indicates an attempt and that's probably the best that an internet forum can do.

I am who I am because of who we all are.

- Phi (post 42!)

[aysiu]

I don't see what your "double standards" rant has to do with the TLDP HowTo.

[Ann667]

I've been poking around this part of the forum out of curiosity.

I find contradiction everywhere. It's like when you see a handicapped person approaching a door..... do I open the door and have them scream that they don't need my help or do I respect there independence and get bashed for being insensitive?

Another thing is this whole thing about encouraging women to get into IT..... I don't get that either. My wife is a mainframe and web programmer / annalist. She is one because she decided she wanted to be one. She was not on the edge of the pool dabbing her toe in the water until the "men of IT" started chanting her name.

I could go on, but it's getting late and I have to pick up the kids and start supper.... My some what convoluted point is this: We are not all the same, but we can be all equal if we choose to be. I know it sounds simple, but really that’s what it takes.

.... fire at will.

</rant>


I very much agree with this post. I can't speak for all women, only myself. I'd just like to say life can be complicated, and people make it more so. I don't get the reactions of people sometimes. I'm a feminist. I believe that people should be treated according to their character and abilities, not their gender. I do not see men as the reason for any of my failures or shortcomings, and I don't see them holding me back. I choose to get involved in things because I want to, I don't need affirmations or encouragement from anyone. I can motivate myself. I also always say "Thank you" when someone opens a door for me. I don't take offense, I appreciate that the person is being polite.

But don't get me wrong. I appreciate that there are men out there who want to encourage women to get involved. People are different. Regardless of gender, some people react well to encouragement, others don't need it, and then there is everything in between.

[Marrea]

Oh my....... I am going to be hated for this but, I got to be me!

I really don't like it when I see things "for woman" because women do not feel comfortable mixing with men for one reason or another. I think that it does more to separate the sexes then anything.

You me both. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw "Ubuntu Women". I just cringe when I see separate arrangements/sections being set up for women. Totally unnecessary and blooming ridiculous. I just want to get stuck in with fellow enthusiasts, be they men or women.

Where's the "Ubuntu Men" forum, then?

[aysiu]

Where's the "Ubuntu Men" forum, then? It's just about everywhere apparently, based on the sexist remarks and jokes I've seen...

[Marrea]

It's just about everywhere apparently, based on the sexist remarks and jokes I've seen...

And I suppose women never make sexist remarks and jokes about men?

Just go along with it, have a laugh and give as good as you get.

[aysiu]

And I suppose women never make sexist remarks and jokes about men? In these forums there isn't a culture of women making sexist remarks and jokes about men, no.

[Marrea]

Quite frankly I have never noticed sexist remarks and jokes about women on any Linux forum I frequent. I'm afraid feminists are their own worst enemies. They see things that aren't actually there and blow them up out of all proportion.

There's one individual (a man) on one of the Linux forums who is constantly made fun of by a particular group of other forum members (all men). He doesn't mind a bit. It's all good clean fun and he just joins in.

[Ann667]

And I suppose women never make sexist remarks and jokes about men?

Just go along with it, have a laugh and give as good as you get.
well, actually, no, I don't make sexist comments towards men. Again, I can't speak for all women, only myself.

Although I generally don't take offense to men who make sexist comments (you can see in a previous post that I mention I do not see men as the bane of my female existence and I don't feel they “hold me back”), I also don't just giggle and go with it like a dumbass. I do, however, tend to not take those people seriously. What I mean by that is I don't take the person seriously. I could really care less about the specific comment except in the sense that it does reveal an aspect of that individual's personality. Generally, it indicates a either a low intelligence level or inferiority issues of some sort. Either way, I really don't want to deal with those types of people. I don't like unnecessary drama or chaos in my life, so I tend to avoid people with issues that could spill over into my own life. By the way, this goes for both men and women. I have on more than one occasion ceased socializing with other women who have similar issues with men. It's annoying and I simply don't have time for it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not devoid of a sense of humor. I'm not easily offended and I don't think that every gender specific joke is actually “sexist”. Sometimes it really is just a joke, and in those cases I will react accordingly. I simply don't find humor in unintelligent, sophomoric bs, especially when that person thinks he, or she, is being witty or believes that he, or she, is making an actual observance when, in fact, it is nothing more than trivial bs.

[Ann667]

Quite frankly I have never noticed sexist remarks and jokes about women on any Linux forum I frequent. I'm afraid feminists are their own worst enemies. They see things that aren't actually there and blow them up out of all proportion.

I haven't noticed women being treated any different then the men on these forums, either, so I have no complaints. At least the Ubuntu forums, I'm not familiar with other linux forums, so I really can't say.

You do make a good point. I'm sad to say that there are a lot of "feminists" out there who do blow things out of proportion, and they do cause more problems for the rest of us.

[Marrea]

Ann667
I totally agree with your comment: "Generally, it indicates a either a low intelligence level or inferiority issues of some sort. Either way, I really don't want to deal with those types of people."

As far as I'm concerned it has nothing to do with gender, it's all to do with the "person", be they male or female.

aysiu
I would like to try and understand what it is that causes you (and others) to feel that we women are not treated with due respect on computer forums. Can you direct me to what you regard as a sexist remark or comment made by a male against women on the Ubuntu forums here?

[aysiu]

aysiu
I would like to try and understand what it is that causes you (and others) to feel that we women are not treated with due respect on computer forums. Can you direct me to what you regard as a sexist remark or comment made by a male against women on the Ubuntu forums here? Fortunately, after I report them, they tend to get removed after a while. For example, this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=177859&page=7), which got way out of hand with talking about women disrespectfully and using just about every man mount and other related puns men could think of. I can't locate the posts Kassetra cut out of the thread. Initially, though, when I and a few other men reported it as sexist drivel, Kassetra thought we were overreacting and said it was all in good fun. Only later did she realize some people took that "fun" a little overboard, and she extracted those posts--to where I don't know.

Just yesterday, I spotted a blonde joke. I reported it, and now I can't seem to locate it.

But it's fairly common practice for men around these boards to joke around (e.g., sudo apt-get replace wife) as if everyone were a heterosexual, prepubescent boy; assume anyone posting a question is a man (unless her username is something like jennifer213); and to drool over women who do make their gender apparent ("Are you single?").

In other words, just about everything that's talked about here (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/). If you're not seeing it, it's because this forum is heavily moderated (and I'm glad about it), and people like me report those posts.

If I spot another one, I'll post it back here for you.

I appreciate that some women do not want to acknowledge sexism in fear of appearing to have a victim mentality or in fear of receiving special treatment, but neither of those have to happen necessarily.

The best way to treat a medical condition is to recognize first of all that you are not healthy (and the prevalence of sexism, particularly in Linux forums, is not healthy). Acknowledging a problem does not make you a whiner.

Edit: Here's one being rebuffed (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=265831#post265831). Ironically, it's in the Ubuntu Women subforums.

[Marrea]

For example, this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=177859&page=7), which got way out of hand with talking about women disrespectfully and using just about every man mount and other related puns men could think of. I can't locate the posts Kassetra cut out of the thread.
Obviously I haven't been able to see the posts which have now been removed but what is left just seems like fairless harmless fun to me, or at the worst merely pointless drivel.


But it's fairly common practice for men around these boards to joke around (e.g., sudo apt-get replace wife) as if everyone were a heterosexual, prepubescent boy; assume anyone posting a question is a man (unless her username is something like jennifer213); and to drool over women who do make their gender apparent ("Are you single?").

I'm afraid that's the way most men are. It's in-built and you won't change them. To be honest with you, I find sudo apt-get replace wife really funny, not offensive in any way.

In other words, just about everything that's talked about here (http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/).
I shall need a bit of time to read through all that , as it's rather long, to see what it's all about.

Maybe it's because I'm fairly easy-going and tolerant by nature but I feel that if we women venture into what are largely regarded as male preserves - be it computers, motorcycling, football, photography, rock music (all of which I am interested in) - we need to be prepared to blend into the environment as it already exists. If we are constantly complaining about or trying to change that environment because it doesn't suit us, it is not going to help us be accepted and will probably only encourage the men to lay it on even thicker.

I've had no problems with sexism at all on any of the forums I participate in. The members (the vast majority of whom are men) couldn't have been more helpful. My main forum is the Linux Format Forum and they are a great bunch.

Until I saw this Ubuntu for Women thing I didn't even realise there was a sexism issue on Linux forums. It's been quite an eye-opener for me, realising that such a thing does exist and how upsetting it is for quite a large number of women. This situation is obviously not good.

[aysiu]

Maybe it's because I'm fairly easy-going and tolerant by nature but I feel that if we women venture into what are largely regarded as male preserves - be it computers, motorcycling, football, photography, rock music (all of which I am interested in) - we need to be prepared to blend into the environment as it already exists. If we are constantly complaining about or trying to change that environment because it doesn't suit us, it is not going to help us be accepted and will probably only encourage the men to lay it on even thicker. Well, I think it can be tackled in both ways, though--women realizing they have to prepare for what's out there and men realizing that changing their attitudes and expressions can make women feel more comfortable... especially in the forums of a distro that touts itself as espousing the philosophy of "humanity towards others."

Until I saw this Ubuntu for Women thing I didn't even realise there was a sexism issue on Linux forums. It's been quite an eye-opener for me, realising that such a thing does exist and how upsetting it is for quite a large number of women. This situation is obviously not good. In all honesty, it's not so pervasive as to be unbearable. It pops up now and again and gets dealt with usually efficiently.

You have a good attitude, but that doesn't negate the fact there's a problem. Being a racial minority in America, I, too, have often found the need to take things with a grain of salt and not be offended by absolutely everything that crosses my path... but that doesn't mean I won't try to educate people on how to be more sensitive and realize we're all human beings around here.

[Ann667]

I appreciate that some women do not want to acknowledge sexism in fear of appearing to have a victim mentality or in fear of receiving special treatment, but neither of those have to happen necessarily.
I really do appreciate where you are coming from, and I also appreciate that there are men out there like yourself. But I do want to make myself clear, just in case I gave the wrong impression. Yes, I do let a lot of things slide, especially when it is just a comment. I do this because I don't see the point in getting bent out of shape over everything. I don't do this to avoid being viewed as having a victim mentality.

Being female is not the only thing that can make me a target. I get more crap for being somewhat hippyish, my odd sense of humor, or my direct and often blunt speech, than I do for being female. I don't get bent out of shape over any of that, either. It's just not worth the time and energy involved to argue every comment. I tend to save that energy for more serious situations. For instance, if sexism were to get in the way of my paycheck or a promotion, then that's a lot different. I won't be so laid back. But if all someone is doing is making an immature and unintelligent comment, then chances are I'm just going to ignore that person.

I am not the kind of person who takes anyone's crap, but I do pick my battles and I also need to be sure that it's really crap before I don't take it. Now don't get me wrong, I may not have the need for a safe haven in an online forum, but I do appreciate that men like yourself are making the effort to get people to understand that it's not necessary to advance such immature and stupid attitudes. What you are doing is certainly a good thing. I just also believe that people need to be a little less sensitive. So maybe, as you said in your last post, a combination of these two approaches may be the best solution.

By the way, my favorite out of the thread you linked to was “sudo apt-get a life.” :D That was funny. I don't know what the posts were that were removed, but the rest of it seemed more like people were ragging on the original poster more than anything.

[OldGaf]

I'm afraid that's the way most men are. It's in-built and you won't change them. To be honest with you, I find sudo apt-get replace wife really funny, not offensive in any way.


I found this very funny as well, and it would have been equally funny had it been sudo apt-get replace husband or boss or mother in law etc. I would also say that this is the way most PEOPLE are made, not just men ;)
It seems that either everyone I know has a different sense of humor or this was treated a bit too seriously. Now if someone said that all women are 8itches, woman are all stupid, are only good for one thing, etc..... then ya, I would have a problem with that and would complain. My wife is Asian/Jamaican decent and I am Scottish/British decent. We both have the same sense of humor and make fun of all kinds of "politically incorrect" things. We know the difference between jokes and insults or lack of respect. The problem is that everyone has a different sense of these. The trick is to find the balance without telling people "I am here now and things are going to change!"


I shall need a bit of time to read through all that , as it's rather long, to see what it's all about.


I found this a bit insulting/demeaning to both men and women of this day and age. Things like "Do not be mean" and "Do be nice" sounds a bit like something Barny would say/sing in a kids show…. “I love you, you love me…….”

The titled should be changed to "This is how everyone should treat everyone else, and if you need to read this to know it, there is something wrong with you"

[anasofiapaixao]

Why should there be Linux communities? Shouldn't we all talk, regardless of Operating System? If there are computer forums and Linux forums, why there aren't Windows forums? [most windows forums call themselves PC forums instead of OS ones (font: Google search, please correct me if I am wrong)]

Maybe there are the Linux forums because Linux people are way fewer than Windows people. And those Linux ones would like to meet others like them, other who feel the same way they do, those who overcame the essencially Windows cultural background and would like peer encouragement and role models, because whether we like it or not, Linux users feel other confort with other linux users, even tough we all love computers, maybe partially because of our haavy Windows-based background. Do you find that discriminating to Linux users?

Now that you read a text without mental gender-issue censorship, replace "Windows" with "men" and "Linux" with "women". Ah. and please remove from your analysis any bad connotations Windows can be assossiated with, as this is only a metaphor.

[OldGaf]

Why should there be Linux communities? Shouldn't we all talk, regardless of Operating System? If there are computer forums and Linux forums, why there aren't Windows forums? [most windows forums call themselves PC forums instead of OS ones (font: Google search, please correct me if I am wrong)]

Maybe there are the Linux forums because Linux people are way fewer than Windows people. And those Linux ones would like to meet others like them, other who feel the same way they do, those who overcame the essentially Windows cultural background and would like peer encouragement and role models, because whether we like it or not, Linux users feel other comfort with other Linux users, even tough we all love computers, maybe partially because of our heavy Windows-based background. Do you find that discriminating to Linux users?

Now that you read a text without mental gender-issue censorship, replace "Windows" with "men" and "Linux" with "women". Ah. and please remove from your analysis any bad connotations Windows can be associated with, as this is only a metaphor.


Well said.... very good =D> .
Yes I agree that there are times when Men and Women need to have there own area where they can speak freely amongst their own "kind" (eh.... why does that sound bad? :-k ) about issues pertaining to them. Many women prefer a female doctor and many men prefer a male doctor..... now that makes sense to me.

But this is a LINUX forum which is, as far as I can see, a non gender topic. Your metaphor suggests that women have linux or ubuntu issues that men do not and vise versa.... is this true? Are there aspects of this OS that I don't understand or could not help a woman with because I am a man? Are there women specific applications? If I need linux help I go to a linux forum.

If some women feel uncomfortable discussing linux with men, then fine, they should have a place where they feel safe. I just wish we only did things like this as a last resort. To me it is like taking a step backwards in order to take a step forward. In the end it will still get you where you want to go, but it will take twice as long to get there.

[anasofiapaixao]

If some women feel uncomfortable discussing linux with men, then fine, they should have a place where they feel safe.

No, actually I don't think most of us feel that way - speaking for myself only. What I meant was that many women feel like aliens in computing, because they are so few. But meeting and knowing other women in the area, having role models to follow, can be a huge incentive! Adn the odds of that happenning is bigger in a section dedicated to us. Seriously, I've put a lot of questions already and all I care is to point out all the info I can and putting the thread on the appropritate place, like video and sound, laptop support, etc...
In a nutshell, I don't mean technical stuff; I mean talk of a more subjective nature, things pertraining to women and computing.;)

[OldGaf]

What I meant was that many women feel like aliens in computing, because they are so few. But meeting and knowing other women in the area, having role models to follow, can be a huge incentive! And the odds of that happening is bigger in a section dedicated to us.
I totally agree with your points. You are right that the more visible a group is, the more likely it is to grow. These are some positive reasons that make sense to me.



What gets many of us men raising our eyebrows are reasons like this,

....Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.....

....but some of them <women> have said that they know many other female Linux users who just aren't comfortable with the community because of the sexist attitude on some forums, etc.

which makes it seem like it is a place to hide or get away from us because of a few bad apples. If this is true, I would say it is a mistake to segregate your selves and better to simply standup for yourselves and claim your rightful place.



Then there are remarks like this:

There are far too many males who don't deserve to be called "men".
Wow.... I don't even know what that really means.... I guess there is a certain level of "something" I need to attain before I can be called a man? ;)



Now this I like the most:

Seriously, I've put a lot of questions already and all I care is to point out all the info I can and putting the thread on the appropriate place, like video and sound, laptop support, etc...

THIS is the world I want to live in!



As it happens all too often, a discussion on a somewhat insignificant topic reveals a larger issue that touches a nerve for many. Luckily we live in a day and age where many people from various walks of life, and parts of the world, can freely contribute to such discussions. “Behold the glory of the internet!” Anyway, here is my blurb on the whole men/women issue:

<Steps up to podium, takes a drink of water, shuffles papers, taps microphone and clears throat>

In the bigger picture, I know it has been a long hard road for women to get from the "old days" to present, and that there is still some road to go. (I am speaking of first world counties here.... it is MUCH worse in other parts of the world).

Believe it or not it has been hard for men as well. It can be quite a struggle to go from being poor to becoming rich, but imagine what it is like to be rich and then become poor. Not the best metaphor, but I think you get my point. A sense of loss is still felt, even if what was lost was undeserved.

Also, there are certain aspects around some big issues (beyond the scope of this forum) that are sexist or unfair for men i.e. divorce, child custody, support, abortion, affirmative action etc. *** Remember, I said "certain aspects" of them ***.
This may be more applicable in North America... I don't know.
But these along with the adjustments we have had to make as woman ascend tend to make many men a little sensitive... I know I am guilty of this.

I was born into this "sexes" situation. I did not create it but I am doing what I can to rectify the situation. The best way to do this is for everyone to stop thinking about past injustices and focus on equality and quality of life….. something that could be applied to many of the worlds issues. Thank you.

<collects papers and steps down from the podium>

This has been an enjoyable topic for me, thank you all…… I just love a good debate!

[aysiu]

Who says this project is about segregation?

Are only women allowed to post here?

[OldGaf]

Who says this project is about segregation?

Are only women allowed to post here?


Sigh..... I guess segregation is not the right word. :(

I mean, personally speaking, I think it is wrong to have a "special" place for Women if it is only because they don't like the backwards sexist remarks that a few men either thoughtlessly or intentionally spew out from time to time. I feel it is better for women, or anyone for that matter, to get rid of the issue then try to find shelter from it.

However, if it is for reasons like anasofiapaixao suggests,
No, actually I don't think most of us feel that way - speaking for myself only. What I meant was that many women feel like aliens in computing, because they are so few. But meeting and knowing other women in the area, having role models to follow, can be a huge incentive! And the odds of that happening is bigger in a section dedicated to us. Seriously, I've put a lot of questions already and all I care is to point out all the info I can and putting the thread on the appropriate place, like video and sound, laptop support, etc...
In a nutshell, I don't mean technical stuff; I mean talk of a more subjective nature, things pertaining to women and computing.;)
then why not? I only noted that some of the remarks posted in this thread indicated that some women felt it was due to negative issues, not positive ones.

Again, just my opinion..... it's not like anyone needs my blessing!

[aysiu]

How do you get rid of the issue without addressing it?

Would we be able to deal with emergencies without an ER? Would we be able to deal with tooth problems without dentists? How would you deal with police misconduct without an internal affairs department? If there's genuinely sexism, it should be addressed, not ignored and "integrated."

[anasofiapaixao]

*claps hands to both of speakers*

[OldGaf]

How do you get rid of the issue without addressing it?

Would we be able to deal with emergencies without an ER? Would we be able to deal with tooth problems without dentists? How would you deal with police misconduct without an internal affairs department? If there's genuinely sexism, it should be addressed, not ignored and "integrated."

I guess I am looking at it differently. More like we have an ER so don't stay in bed for fear of getting hurt. We have dentists so feel free to eat what you want. We have an internal affairs department so don't be afraid of the police.

Do the ERs, Dentists and internal affairs departments prevent all bad things from happening? Of coarse not. They are there for when the bad things happen and to act as a deterrent. We have moderators / admin's to police the forums and good citizens like yourself who call them when necessary.

Again, I only dislike the idea of a women’s "area" if it is because they feel unsafe in the main stream. If you want to play the game but some players are breaking the rules and playing too rough, get the referee to step in. The other players are there to support you too. The rough guys are ruining the game for us too if they make it so that you want to take your ball and start your own game.

But if you want to start your own game with your own friends, or just because you feel like it or you feel it will be better or what ever..... that's fine too. Just don't do it because you feel you HAVE to but because you WANT to.


If there's genuinely sexism, it should be addressed, not ignored and "integrated."

I totally agree..... how will that happen in this forum if it is only address in on thread that is titled "Announcing Ubuntu Women"?

I think we both want the same thing, we just have different ideas of why things are being done and what needs to happen.

[aysiu]

I think we both want the same thing, we just have different ideas of why things are being done and what needs to happen. Exactly.

[elamericano]

I think that this is simply a place to reduce the sense of isolation that women have to endure while participating in the tech field - a place to hear their own voices, if you will. To that end it's counterproductive to have mostly males commenting on these threads, I think...

Oops, gotta go. ;-)

[aysiu]

This was the first message in this thread: This forum section is for Ubuntu Women, a group designed to make women feel more comfortable in the Ubuntu Community and the Linux Community at large. It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.

This project is being worked on by Tsjoklat, kassetra, and myself.
Yes, I know I'm missing some anatomy to be an Ubuntu woman myself, but the group is not for only women, but for people who want to see an increase in women to the community. Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.

[elamericano]

Yes, I do recall that being the first post in this thread, and after that I posted this:

I think that this is simply a place to reduce the sense of isolation that women have to endure while participating in the tech field - a place to hear their own voices, if you will. To that end it's counterproductive to have mostly males commenting on these threads, I think...


To put it in the context of the first post, if you still don't see any merit in what I said, if mostly men are interpreting what makes women uncomfortable then we're not likely to get it right. I obviously don't think that it's off-limits to men, just that men should read it more than post to it. Let's step back and let the women dominate the discussion, as they don't have the chance to anywhere else on the forums.

You may disagree, I only ask that you consider it rather than being dismissive.

[OldGaf]

Yes, I do recall that being the first post in this thread, and after that I posted this:



To put it in the context of the first post, if you still don't see any merit in what I said, if mostly men are interpreting what makes women uncomfortable then we're not likely to get it right. I obviously don't think that it's off-limits to men, just that men should read it more than post to it. Let's step back and let the women dominate the discussion, as they don't have the chance to anywhere else on the forums.

You may disagree, I only ask that you consider it rather than being dismissive.

Well, I have had my say and I thank you for your time, but I can't help feeling a little sad at how this has ended. ](*,)
I though this was a thread where I could find out "what makes women uncomfortable" but if men debating the issue with women leads to statements like "To that end it's counterproductive to have mostly males commenting on these threads" then I feel I have out stayed my welcome. I may come back and read from time to time, but to be honest, I feel uncomfortable reading a thread that apparently exists due to people of my gender while holding back my comments or questions [-( ..... but you apparently know how that feels ;)

Ladies...... good luck and I leave you to it! :KS

[Ann667]

I though this was a thread where I could find out "what makes women uncomfortable" but if men debating the issue with women

I don't remember you specifically asking what it is that makes women uncomfortable. You may have, but I may have overlooked that post. I'm not sure what to tell you there for a couple of reasons. 1) people are individuals, so what makes one person uncomfortable may not make another person uncomfortable, and 2) I can only speak for myself, because of my first reason.. I'm still not sure what to tell you. To be honest, I don't feel uncomfortable in these forums at all. Most of the people here are pleasant and helpful. I believe I only came across one post that may have been a little out of line... but nothing so bad it really bothered me. To be honest, I'm not here to “feel” any particular way, I'm here to get information so I can learn a new operating system, and maybe even help out a fellow newcomer who may have run into a problem I may have recently ran into. Although, I have to say, there is a thread that did kind of strike a bit of a nerve, and that was one where someone was asking for help and then was being a bit aggressive towards the people trying to help.

Oh, I wanted to add: I don't work in IT so I can't say anything about what it's like for women in this field. I can say that the men I know from IT do not seem to have any problem with women. There are women who work with them and I've never heard anyone say anything negative. As a matter of fact, I do work in the same building as some of them, and seeing as I do kind of know some of them, I happened to mention to one of the guys I installed a linux OS. His reaction was “cool, how do you like it?” (not those words, exactly) I think they are great guys. To be honest, I think they would be great to work with.

I'm going back to school and I'm seriously thinking about getting into this field.

Now, I do work with engineers, and to be honest, I don't have a problem with any of them. I present myself as an intelligent person, and I'm treated as such. I'm technically inclined and tend to pick things up somewhat easily. I like to know how things work and I have a good work ethic. I believe it's appreciated.

[OldGaf]

To be honest, I don't feel uncomfortable in these forums at all. Most of the people here are pleasant and helpful. I believe I only came across one post that may have been a little out of line... but nothing so bad it really bothered me. To be honest, I'm not here to “feel” any particular way, I'm here to get information so I can learn a new operating system, and maybe even help out a fellow newcomer who may have run into a problem I may have recently ran into.

So you are OK with the forum and don't "need" a womens "area"? - note I said need, not agree with or what ever. If so then great..... there is hope......?

[Ann667]

So you are OK with the forum and don't "need" a womens "area"? - note I said need, not agree with or what ever. If so then great..... there is hope......?
To be honest, I don't feel I "need" it. I've been poking around this section a little out of curiosity, and it is kind of interesting. I appreciate that there are some guys out there who are making an effort. Some women may actually feel more comfortable here, or at least more comfortable just knowing it's here. I'm Ok either way.

[Marrea]

To be honest, I'm not here to “feel” any particular way, I'm here to get information so I can learn a new operating system, and maybe even help out a fellow newcomer who may have run into a problem I may have recently ran into.

This is precisely the reason I too participate in Linux forums. I'm fascinated by the operating system and learning how to configure it has become quite an obsession. And it's really satisfying being able to help someone else who has run into a problem which you yourself have come up against and managed to solve.

Quite frankly, I'm not sure I want to use Linux forums for the purpose of putting the world to rights. There are plenty of other places for that.

I present myself as an intelligent person, and I'm treated as such. I'm technically inclined and tend to pick things up somewhat easily. I like to know how things work and I have a good work ethic. I believe it's appreciated.

Appreciated and almost guaranteed to get you accepted. Show you know what you're talking about. Get stuck into it, ignore the few immature idiots (and I firmly believe there are only a few of them) who have nothing better to do than to post childish jokes. That way they'll soon get bored and go and annoy someone else.

But as regards harmless male banter, keep it coming. I love being "one of the boys", so to speak, and I love their humour !

[Catewilliams]

Oh, I am happy I have found other women who use Ubuntu. ^^; I don't know very many women around me that do, it is good to know there are fellow girls out there that use it too! ^^

[wishes]

Oh, I am happy I have found other women who use Ubuntu. ^^; I don't know very many women around me that do, it is good to know there are fellow girls out there that use it too! ^^

Yeah there is definatly more females using nowdays than there used to be. I remember back in the day (at least 8 years ago or so) it was completly unheard of to find females and linux. Even now there are only 1 or 2 other females in my local LUG (and to be honest i think one of them used to be a man at some point).

The funny thing is that now there are more females, im not really that keen on joining in etc - i guess i got used to being just 'one of the guys'.

[SuddenRayne]

HI, I just joined up today and would like to say that I think this is great. My fiance got me using Linux a year ago after my system kept crashing (gotta love windows) and I've never looked back. I have been using Ubuntu for a few months now and absolutely love it. I am still real new to it all tho and sometime's I think I drive my fiance nuts with all the questions I have, so this is just awesome to be able to be a part of a community like this and know that if there is something I need help with , there are so many Linux users out there that can offer some advice or direction. I hope one say I will know enough to be able to help others as well. Thanx for the opportunity to say HI and for letting me sign up. Suddz.:D

[Buzzygirl]

Hi Suddz,

Welcome! I really like this forum too... there are super-helpful people here. Ubuntu is just a breeze to use, it's the best Linux distro ever IMO. =D> It's all I'm using at home now (still gotta use Windoze at work) and I am completely happy with the system.

[Catewilliams]

Yeah there is definatly more females using nowdays than there used to be. I remember back in the day (at least 8 years ago or so) it was completly unheard of to find females and linux. Even now there are only 1 or 2 other females in my local LUG (and to be honest i think one of them used to be a man at some point).

The funny thing is that now there are more females, im not really that keen on joining in etc - i guess i got used to being just 'one of the guys'.



I agree with the last statement, to the fullest, however, most of my friends don't even know what Linux is, so I don't ususally have a problem. But on forums and so on, sometimes it's complicated because women are so picky.

I haven't had a chance to join a LUG, as I haven't made contact with a human being in my area that uses Linux. Either it's too complicated, can't run games, emulators don't work, crashes, windows is my security blanket, etc. etc.. So I just decided to fall into the wood work of having a diffrent OS than Windows. Most girls I know can't start up a computer correctly. :neutral:

[SoundMachine]

Why the discussion, there is now a forum for women, we are welcome to post as well following the same guidelines as everyone else, i don't understand why this should even be a question.

Women do as they wish anyway.

I told my ex wife to install Slackware and choose hds8 for root hda9 for home and hds10 for swap

She tried to install Mandrake and failed misrably, well i guess there is a lesson to be learned from that, (i'm single) i don't really know.

[handy]

I've been using Ubuntu since last November, & finaly got to having a little look at the Ubuntu Women's sub forum, it's great, women communicate so much better than men, as a pretty solid general rule... :cool:

No need for pigeon holing, don't WE have a great operating system, & absolutely the best forum I've ever seen anywhere!!! :KS

The thing that really knocks me out, is that it is going to keep on getting better, when it's allready good enough! :mrgreen:

[handy]

Sorry, I did not mean to be invasive.

[kopilo]

Just wanted to say that my sister is working as the IT assistant administrator for a company in Japan. In short, across the road from her work is Sony's central office.

She's not a Ubuntu Women just yet because she has to use quote "Winblows" end quote due to her job. I recomemded she try Ubuntu, she installed it on an old laptop and was amazed just by it's speed.

:cool: *go sis go*

[rockprincess]

sorry, I'm lacking of time to read all pages

but will there be a website (like women.kde.org or women.debian.org) has?
i'd love the idea of women.ubuntu.com or women.kubuntu.com

that'd be lovely :D

is there a way to join this group?!

[Synapse56]

I feel it would be a great loss and really sad if women exclude themselves from something like the Ubuntu community by forming their own group, and I feel that you'll do the community a better service by integration, rather than segregation.

"It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community."
Ummm to establish a Ubuntu for women *is* seperation....

[kopilo]

Currently, technically it is not, because it is still under the same forum and there is nothing to say that men can not read or post here.

I think this group under the forum is aimed for capturing specific questions for and from Women who use ubuntu.

You know, like the x86_64 Ubuntu forum is specific for Ubuntu 64 threads.

However if they were to form their seperate forum, then yes that would be seperation/segregation.

[Mimsy]

I think this group under the forum is aimed for capturing specific questions for and from Women who use ubuntu.

I'm confused... what types of questions could I have about Ubuntu, that men wouldn't have? Can you give an example?

I'm not trying to be b**chy here, I genuinely have a great difficulty understanding why we need a forum for women of all groups. Should we have one for Chinese exchange students as well? :confused:

/Mimsy

[aysiu]

I'm confused... what types of questions could I have about Ubuntu, that men wouldn't have? Can you give an example?

I'm not trying to be b**chy here, I genuinely have a great difficulty understanding why we need a forum for women of all groups. Should we have one for Chinese exchange students as well? :confused:

/Mimsy
The phenomena described in this document (http://tldp.org/HOWTO/Encourage-Women-Linux-HOWTO/) are real in the Linux world.

As far as I know, there is nothing special (for better or worse) about the way Chinese exchange students are treated (either ignored or given too much attention to... the wrong kind of attention) in the Linux world.

[Mimsy]

Those issues are real in any world created by men, and hardly exclusive to Linux. I'd rather solve them by forcing interaction, especially since the problems to a great extent are created and kept alive by the behaviour and attitude of the men involved, not the women.

I don't think an Ubuntu Women group will solve those issues, largely because that tactic doesn't seem to have worked in other walks of life. A certain type of man will always be a sexist jerk, just as a certain type of woman will always see problems instead of opportunities, or cry when she is mistreated instead of punch back.

However, everyone is different, and if any woman out there feels the need for a forum specifically for women of course there needs to be one. I just doubt that the problems will go away if you create one.

Obviously, I hope I'm wrong.

/Mimsy

[kopilo]

I'm confused... what types of questions could I have about Ubuntu, that men wouldn't have? Can you give an example?

/Mimsy

Well a women might ask what program(s) she can use with Ubuntu to 'map her cycle'.

[DoctorMO]

Well a women might ask what program(s) she can use with Ubuntu to 'map her cycle'.

Not only wouldn't that be useful for a man in relation to women he knows (keep a head of the irritability) but it would also be useful to keep track of the several hormone cycles in men (spring cycle for instance)

But I think it's important for women to keep together, it's probably as survival tactic pre-programed genericly because even female tigers will tend to group around the same areas.

[Mimsy]

Well a women might ask what program(s) she can use with Ubuntu to 'map her cycle'.

How about the dekstop calendar? Though I'm pretty sure that men can use that one too, so maybe that wasn't a good answer. :p
(Edit: I see DoctorMO has already mentioned that. What man wouldn't want a little bit of warning that Homicidal Week is coming up?)

Aysiu's answer is a lot better - sometimes women feel the need to band together to survive the sexist men around them. And that's fine, and if you want to do that no one has a right to stop you. However, I don't think you're doing anyone, including other women, a favor by pretending it is for other reasons.

/Mimsy

[kopilo]

And a women may consider her cycle "private women's business".

I've stated my assumption(s), not pretentious theory (those are for another forum ;) ).

Sexual surpression occurs on both sides of the gender lines, I'm not going to generalise and say if it happens more to one gender or not but rather say that sexual oppression does not just come from men.

I gather (according to other members) that I should assume many people feel more comfortable with their sexuality around people of the same gender, but for myself there is no difference, thus I was assuming that gender did not matter.

[DoctorMO]

gender shouldn't matter; but it does in some instances. these instances don't exist however online.

I like to drink tea while I wait for my train station, and since I live not too far away I take tea from home in a normal mug. now people around me stare and think I'm nuts. but to be honest why should I care; it's logical and I enjoy my tea. (I keep the cup in my bag)

[Mimsy]

And a women may consider her cycle "private women's business".

...in which case I'm now trying to understand why she'd ask about it on a public web forum.

And by now I am also simply being ornery. :p

/Mimsy

[kopilo]

Haha, fair enough but someone doesn't nessicarily need to give information about their personal life to gain information on how to do something with it.

person1: "I have this friend who is looking for an awesome operating system to try".

person2: "Maybe they should try Ubuntu." ;)

[Mimsy]

I still don't get how that situation is different for women than for men though...? Surely I can have male friends in that very same situation, who are sick and tired of all the problems with Windows, but they refuse to buy a Mac, thinking those systems vastly over-prized.

/Mimsy

[kopilo]

It was just an example of how someone could ask a question without giving away any real details, nothing more nothing less.

[Mimsy]

But I was asking for an example of questions women would have about Ubuntu, that could not be posted in the general forum where they are more likely to be read and answered, not to mention more likely to benefit the rest of the community as a whole. I can't think of one.

/Mimsy

[DoctorMO]

It's not a question of logical questions. you know that thing where some girls will _tend_ to talk on the phone for hours to their other girl friends about what seems like useless information. well like that but online.

I remember a forum I used to be on where there was a womens forum and men wern't allowed in. from what I gether it was a great place for women to share they're problems about boyfriends or the best kinds of socks to buy and in one instance that was relayed onto the main forums they were talking about advanced physics. I complained because I was exluded from such interesting topics but it's just something that some people like to be a part of a group where they feel safer and I can understand that even online.

Infact I think they should make this forum only accessable to women; it worked well in the other forum in being a base for young women to engadge other ubuntu women constructivly without men peering in (then it might as well me just another forum) although we should have a men only forum too which won't get any posts hardly ever. but it'll be there for fairness.

(having said that the chances people will create a female user account just to peer in anyway will be reflected in how well known it is there is such a forum)

[Mimsy]

It's not a question of logical questions. you know that thing where some girls will _tend_ to talk on the phone for hours to their other girl friends about what seems like useless information. well like that but online.

I have girlfriends for that. And there are other places online for that. Designed for that, even. :)

I think, after pondering this for a while, that my main objcetion to a "locked down" forum only for women users of Ubuntu seems to go right against the Ubuntu philosophy where everyone is interdependent on everyone else, and only the presence of other human beings can make us fully human. I don't see how one can claim to subscribe to that, while at the same time make a great effort to distance oneself from a large part of the Ubuntu community.

"I am human becuase you're woman" just sounds wrong to me.

/Mimsy

[DoctorMO]

*shrug* then I don't know because while on one hand I don't recognise any differences between people on the other hand culture has layed some skewed foundations and then you have the general unfairness that no matter how good a human being I am I'll never be a woman and party to the descusions which might go on so long as the criteria is set as pysical difference.

[aysiu]

This is the original post of this thread:
This forum section is for Ubuntu Women, a group designed to make women feel more comfortable in the Ubuntu Community and the Linux Community at large. It is NOT meant to separate women from the rest of the community.

This project is being worked on by Tsjoklat, kassetra, and myself.
Yes, I know I'm missing some anatomy to be an Ubuntu woman myself, but the group is not for only women, but for people who want to see an increase in women to the community. Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.

[Mimsy]

And that makes perfect sense. Except, since it's men who have those attitudes, wouldn't it be smarter to target them, and not women?

I know, I'm a pain. :p

/Mimsy

[aysiu]

And that makes perfect sense. Except, since it's men who have those attitudes, wouldn't it be smarter to target them, and not women?

I know, I'm a pain. :p

/Mimsy
Who says it's targeting women? the group is not for only women, but for people who want to see an increase in women to the community. Many more women use Linux than people think, they just don't feel comfortable interacting in forums/IRC/etc, because of some attitudes that many have. This community will try to weed out those attitudes.

[Mimsy]

The name does. Ubuntu Women => Ubuntu for women. Men not welcome.

If the goal is a community with equal treatment of everyone, why name it after the one group the sexist men are least likely to listen to? After all, the men who are willing to listen and willing to change their attitude after listening are not the problem. The men who only listen to other men are, and a community named "Ubuntu Women" doesn't encourage enough male participation (to me at least) to be able to make a difference. It sounds too much like a support group.

But what to do I know. Maybe the average guy really wants to be a part of a community named Ubuntu Women, and would be happy to tell everyone about it and why he's there?

:)

/Mimsy

[glotz]

I originally misread the title of this thread 'Annoying Ubuntu Women'... :lol:

[Mimsy]

I originally misread the title of this thread 'Annoying Ubuntu Women'... :lol:

That would be me. :mrgreen:

/Mimsy

[roz_yo]

i haven't read all post but i can tell how i discovered ubuntu as i saw this was the topic.... from a friend who told me it takes a lot till it loads & refused to give it to me. i was searching for a linux sys too. though the pages of ubuntu inspired me it's a community like system, but not much linkage to linux :p myself i'm student in letters too :) i received ubuntu cds but had problems installing it. asked for help to someone from ubuntu romanian forum. he told me download the alternate version. i downloaded kubuntu alternate & succeeded to install it on other computer. but it did not boot still. ugghh... then i inserted the ubuntu dapper again in cdrom. then it worked loading from cd. thus i succeeded installing. i guess after partitioning with kubuntu alternate it still was a miracle.......now i installed on my computer as well but as dual boot. i'm quite happy with ubuntu. but it's much to learn. i don't feel very stressed i'm girl in a "men world"... as i have friends of mine (girls) who already graduated computer science..... but still feeling novice.... & not real geek :) ubuntu is a really lovely sys though. it seems more for women than men to me :p (it's stylish :D) though it still makes hard to understand for those around what strong attraction i can have towards computers......roz, 26 y o, romania.

[cvmostert]

i wish i could convert my wife to ubuntu, sometimes she uses it for mail etc, but the problem is payed online streaming... in my case... so can not get past that one... yet. :-)

Allways great being able to say "yet" .... because it WILL happen someday sooner than we think...

[DoctorMO]

Have yet to have a streamed video fail. let me know what the problem is.

[dorcssa]

I was thinking about where to write my first post in the forums, when I finally decided to register after only reading it for a while. This seems to be perfect for me, 'cos I'm a woman. :D

Sorry not to read the posts in this thread, I'm just making a statement about how I feel about linux, and changing from windows. To start at the beginning, I have my own pc from jan 2005, though I'm familiar with pc's since the elementary school. But from that time I had internet, and the world opened to me. :D A have a friend who told me that linux is good, and it's worth to try. He was tried to convince me that nowdays it's much easier to install it, and I have all the programs I need, and can have a messenger compatible program, etc. After a while I gave it a try, and downloaded a Knoppix live cd. It was not bad, and I was thinking about to install a linux distro to my other hard drive(I have two 80 Gb hd). Another friend, who was much more involved into linux, since he only worked with linux a long time, advised me to try ubuntu, cos it's wery userfriendly, especielly for windows users, and as he use it too, he can offer me his help easily. I was hesitating a litte bit, but I thought it would not cost me much, backup every data, and istall ubuntu drapper. I'm still a newbie, and I will never learn to use the command line in the hardcore linux term(but I'm trying to use it! :D), but I think now I'm stuck with ubuntu. It's really nice, I like gnome(imo it's nicer than kde), and I'm still wondering how could I end up using linux. As I'm not a big gaming fan, I have really everything I need, so I don't miss windows. 3 month ago, I couldn't imagine this ever happening. I still have win on a 10 Gb partition, somehow I feel I cannot erase it. And maybe, when I like to play something, it could be useful. :D The first week was a little bit hard, and I read much about ubuntu even nowdays, but I think it is getting better every day. I may encounter some problems in the future, but hey, I know google and how to use a forum search, so nobody can stop me. :mrgreen:

Finally, sorry to make this post so long, and for my bad english too, (in case you haven't noticed), usually I don't write in english, only listen to it, and translate it. :)

[thelinuxguy]

Hello everyone,
Just found this thread. I have been using Linux for a while but **had** never been able to get it to the level I wanted i.e. working internet connection, display and sound drivers, printer etc. Just started using Ubuntu a few days back and got what I had been longing for all this while.

While neither me nor my girlfriend is a geek, we do love computers. Only that she doesn't do linux. Have been trying to win her over since a long time. But seeing my own hapless state with many other distros, she never really felt like switching.

This place can change her mind. And hopefully I'll be asking her some questions or answering some of them....

Its great to see the way things are shaping up. My next task: Get her here ;)

Happy Ubuntuing everyone.
Regards.

[msjulie]

Hello thelinuxguy,

Welcome aboard the Ubuntu train.

You mentioned that you hoped to get your girlfriend on board. That is great! Hopefully, Ubuntu will work smoothly for you. Getting her to switch might be more difficult. She will probably need to make that decision herself and for her own reasons. I doubt making her boyfriend happy is high on the list.

Sincerely,
Julie

[rlozano]

this really a good project. i know there are alot of women who wants to try another OS aside from windows. But this one will make them more comfortable with ubuntu linux.

i'm offering my help in anyway i can. :-)

[voraistos]

Excuse me but i dont get exactly what is going on here ? ( And dont say i cant get it because i am a guy :P )

I mean In the Ubuntu community rules (Or whatever they call it, maybe EULA, who knows?), any kind of discrimination is forbidden.

Or is this just a place where womentu can meet ?

Anyway, i am happy non-IT ladies are interested in this wonderful thing linux is, i just hope i can meet one one day! (yeah because since i am 10, 90% of my classes were girls, and most of them couldnt actually tell me what iexplore was)(no, i am not talking about the spyware features).(and yeah i am studying computing and we have 4 girls for 450 boys, all SunJava dev on top of windows :( . I promise i tried to convert them, unsuccessfully) (OK this uni's bad, i am the only guy running linux, 3 dudes MacOSX, and some dont even have a computer.... But still. I could convert my Mom to wengophone/firefox/openoffice and finally Ubuntu so everything is possible!) (well, i cleaned the hard drive and left Ubuntu on it so she doesnt really have a choice, but she seems happy with the lack of viruses :) )

Sorry for the long useless story, i just cant get the qtwengo to GTK portage started :P --> /me 's hands are tired and hurt

[gldvxx]

hihi! i'm a new ubuntu user!! i've been a mac user for eons (apple ][ forever!), but i don't like using expensive proprietary hardware just to run the latest and greatest. i've always been jealous of home built pc users.. i'm setting up an ubuntu server for honing my LAMP skillz and an ubuntu desktop for 3d modeling. at my current contract gig i'm porting filemaker/applescript over to Mysql/Perl. i'm setting up ubuntu server since the hardware is a bit out of date for os x server (and i can't get $ for the licenses). a FEW friends of mine recommended ubuntu when they heard what i was doing (and about my fedora core install..)

about the women subforum, i'm glad for it. reverse sexism doesn't exist, just like reverse racism. the whole point is dominant perspective. middle class white males (especially american) have no concept of any other perspective but their own. that's called privelege. there is a majority way of thinking and acting that if you have it, every aspect of society caters to you so you never have to think in any other mode. you won't know what i'm talking about if you don't already. i suggest a course on sociology rather than stubbornly arguing that "we're all equal". that's like saying "i don't see you as a woman" or "i don't see you as black". meaning: "i see you according to my dominant standard" or "i see only the parts of you that adhere to my perspective and i ignore the rest". i am NOT equal to everyone else, thank you, and i'm slightly offended at being considered as such (it's as if whole aspects of my existence are being negated..!)

our gender, and don't confuse gender with sex because they are two different things, especially if we are raised in a linear thinking western society, causes us certain enculturation as we are raised and certain experiences. women who are attracted to technology are often releieved to find others that share these perspectives/experiences despite other aspects of our lives being different. it's just nice to know that one is not alone. and i see a subforum like this as a gateway for some that might not be as comfortable asking questions in a larger forum where they might be talked to as if they were a stuttering 5 year old. even if no blatant "sexism" exists, it's very subtle, and sometimes our constant exposure to it in other technology forums can cause us to be a little oversensitive in non-discrimanatory contexts.

i also think it's not fair to give stereotypical examples of different groups as a way to "prove" an argument as each individual's experience is unique and VALID. there are some people who may gain great comfort from this sub forum and some who won't. for those who won't, i say, don't post here. don't read it. it's not for you.

for people who want to discuss issues in sociology based on their otherwise uninformed opinions, seeing such "opinions" is like a total noob posting in a linux forum and it being obvious that they have made no effort to research their problem at least a little bit on their own. you are not the first person in the world to raise these points or ask these questions and if you are genuinely interested, it's probably worth while to pursue some genuine sources for a more intelligent and less defensive discussion.

i totally majored in anthropology and comp sci in college can you tell??? hahaha.. anyways sorry i got a little long winded, i just had a lot to say after reading some of the previous posts. in sum, i'm really glad to be using ubuntu and to be part of the linux/open source community! w00t!

[Seekker]

Hello,

Once Vista was released, I decided to migrate to open source permanently. To the end, I've spent the past two weeks reacquainting myself with linux in general, and Kubuntu/Ichthux specifically. Eventually, I want to be able to offer my customers an open source alternative to 'doze. Thus far, Ubuntu appears to fit the bill.

In addition to joining here, I've applied to join my local Ubuntu team. I'd like to be able to teach others how to use their new found Open Source alternatives.

Seekker

[charlemagnefate]

I don't think we should make a separate section for women because if u community believes in the philosophy of Ubuntu then unity will bring us together not divide us

"Those who do not believe in unity will never know what is feel like to live in Divine Bliss"

P.S. this is just my opinion don't take it to heart

[sanderella]

It's nice for us to talk about knitting and other girlie things. Please don't deny us our pink space. :)

[charlemagnefate]

haha ok then i will not speak of this again sorry and have a good day

[indica]

i think this forum is a brilliant idea, i'd like to meet some more linux chicks. and in defence of the guys out there i haven't had any experiences where anyone was sexist as of yet. they've been entirely helpful :D ;)

[pixelstuff]

I keep forgetting I am a woman when I am doing things. Its not important. Reading some posts in this thread makes me feel like - what a fool! I thought all the information out there is for me, too. Whenever there is a subgroup it suggests that its members are not really part of the main group.

[DoctorMO]

I keep forgetting I am a woman when I am doing things. Its not important.

I keep forgeting I'm a man when doing things; mostly because it's not important your right. but this forum is for positive discrimination or some such; basicaly supporting women in order to foster more women involvement.

Reading some posts in this thread makes me feel like - what a fool! I thought all the information out there is for me, too, but I am not supposed to learn linux, to take care of my whole hardware equipment and to support my boyfriend with Windows and hardware issues.

Why the hell not? if anyone ever tells you that you can't learn something because it's not for you. you should tell them to get lost.

People who write help and documentations will think 99% of their audience will be men??? Is it really so?

No, they hope 99% of their audience will be human.

You guys seem to be sure who is a woman or a man in the forums - I never know, am I missing something?

I never know and I bet most people don't know, many people thought I was a woman based on my fae avitar and the fact that my writing style is "apparently" female (though I don't believe it)

Is there a code for avatars? I can`t find the information in my profile, where did I submit it?

No code, avitars can be submitted via the 'User CP'

It just leaves me sad and alone.

*HUG* Your not alone so don't be sad

[SciBirg]

Well, I am happy at least that there is a place where it is easy to locate other women using Ubuntu.

I have used Ubuntu in the past and I am looking for a way to install it again, although I am having some problems with certain essential programs.

Oh, and for work I am a SAP sysadmin and my hubby is a stay-at-home dad... :P

[rhardie]

Being a man, it never occurred to me that a woman would feel uncomfortable interacting on a forum where nobody could see, hear, touch or otherwise cause physical harm. It "IS" good to know these things, and we men, being the mind readers that we are NOT, sometimes need to be informed of such conditions.

It never occurred to me that a woman would be any different than a man in the forums or elsewhere.

But anyway, "welcome" to all the fine women of the technology world and specifically Ubuntu. We appreciate you and the uniqueness you bring to the forums that only a woman can contribute.

Kind regards.

[jenny_gb]

hi there !

nice topic ;)

i totally agree with gldvxx for ex ;)
but as i'm french, i'll replace by "middle class white males (especially french)" :)

i'm searching solutions here for 1 or 2 months (ubuntu's docs are so nice, i just found what I needed, so i didn't need to subscribe here yet - and i just love ubuntu !!)...

just to add something here: online it's true "nobody can hurt you".
but the fact that there's so much porn&X on the web is just so "boring" (guys "who don't understand" ;) try to chat in some "general chat room" with a girl name... or write it in google) !!!
that's why usually i choose on tek forum a "non gendered nickname" (since years)...
yes, let's now take a girl name, like here ;)
let's come out girls !!! lol


i'm reading articles about computer (and science & arts) and gender here in France.
i'm 41 years old (math studies, then teacher and technician).
here, there's a few women in computer unis - it seems that my generation was the larger one !!! there's nearly no women in french firms - usually i'm the only one in IT.
when i search a job, it's crazy what i can hear !!! sometime, i tell stories (questions they asked me, as a woman) to some tekies "males" friends lol,.. they just hallucinate ! lol
i'm a eletric guitar bass player too... and it's quite the same lol

thanks, everywhere on earth, there's some nice humans - and some of them can be friends (with disabilities or not, white or not, old, young, man, women or other...)
but
it's nice to have a place to talk about it ;)

[bapoumba]

Welcome aboard, jenny_gb :)

[bethnesbitt]

When first using some stuff online ;) men only think one way so I posed as a male for years. Well I used a male type nickname, but never said otherwise unless somebody online knew me long enough, then I said. But I did learn alot that way. Even enjoyed teaching some males things, and then bragging that I was female. Muhahaha.

I Hope they didn't go to school and skip over this little tid bit. Google Ada Byron guys if you are that stereotypical. Or don't "shrugs".

Once I decided to hall my butt off to school for computers (which I love), teachers always would hint about linux, I took a beginning unix class, and got curious. SO here I am a ubuntu lover.

[bcnaat]

I'm newish to Ubuntu/Linux. I ran it a year or so ago when I had problems with my computer. Strange how Linux will run fine on a dying Windows box? Since I've been back on Windows for awhile, I'm trying to do my comparisons of what I need to switch back over to Ubuntu and just keep rolling.

My biggest problem is dealing with wireless cards and the fact that I own a blackberry 8300 and need to figure out how to sync that to the evolution or another email program in Ubuntu.

I am glad that you have a forum area that does address women, not segregating them, just appreciating that we are out there and sometimes we're the ones that are setting up the computers/systems as well as using them.

Have a great evening everyone!

Kay

[bapoumba]

Good to have both of you around, please enjoy the forums!

[Korarnithlas]

Heh, oh good. I knew that there were women out there, but rather like a group I can contact...I also found LinuxChix through the posts here. Thank you.

I'm a student who is quite fed up with Windows, determined not to move to Vista, and completely sure she doesn't want to have to answer to Apple for her media files and other apps.

I've been moving to freeware continuously for a year now (still using Windows XP), and it's getting to the point where I want to try different 'base applications' but don't want to bog down my computer with 'repeat' programs (aka why use this when I have Word?).

Anyway, I'm convinced I want to try Ubuntu (got my free mailing 5 months ago). I'll be looking at the install help over the next week or so.

My only concern is: I'm terrible at math. And that's not a suppressed female speaking. That's a really-sucks-at-math gal speaking. A calculator is my friend for the simplest problems.

Will this hinder me? And how much so, so I know what I'm jumping into when I install Ubuntu.....

Thanks!

[bapoumba]

From my perspective, math is not an issue, but math has never been an issue to me anyway ;)

[Sef]

From my perspective, math is not an issue, but math has never been an issue to me anyway

A lot of the problems with math is the way it is taught. People have different learning styles and usually math is only taught one way.

[Korarnithlas]

Oh, lol, I meant, you know, for commands (code) and so forth. Guess I wasn't clear there....

[bapoumba]

Some logic and a good syntax is more important. The command line is strict, one typo, and it does not work.

I'm not much into hardware stuff, but I do not feel I really need it. I searched the net for linux supported computers parts for ex, when I wanted to buy stuff. And I do not help with hardware issues, because I do not know much about that.
I'd say if you want to go deep into the system, you would need more electronics than math.

Common sense, web searches, and being prudent, that is what I use the most. And I have no computer education, whatsoever.
I learned a lot helping others too. With the above skills :)

[Korarnithlas]

Thanks! I appreciate it.

*Grins* Nice to know...

[MongooseCage]

Wubuntu FTW? Why is there a female community? the topic is ubuntu and linux! strange...

[bapoumba]

Wubuntu FTW? Why is there a female community? the topic is ubuntu and linux! strange...
Ubuntu-Women is a project within Ubuntu, not a separate community. You can read more here (http://ubuntu-women.org/) about this project, or the entire thread you posted in :)

[Celt23]

I've been just reading this forum until I found this place, and I have to say I really thought I was just about alone being a woman and using Linux, but now I see it's quite the opposite. It's very good to see this project and I wish you all the best of luck with it, it's goal has certainly been accomplished with me. ^_^

[Calabresi]

Nice nice, very beautiful idea, so my homenet full with female user account can change they theme that will come with WUbuntu, and themes to LTSP please.

Didn't read all thread to know if there is already, but you can start searching for a female(s) to admin this thread.

Will inspire more simple females users to use the OS as desktop, not only proserver female.

[techniclady]

Hey good idea!

just entered in generel to the forum and im stil trying to find my why, but this way is definitly a good direction.

Hello to all women!


=D>

[Abraxis]

Well this just seems weird to me, it was a girl i went to school with who got me into Linux, and ever since, the only people I've met that were really into Linux have all been girls.... it must be a generation thing.... or maybe a Canadian thing :confused:

[Katilyst666]

Well, It seems around where I live, It's just My Boyfriend & I that use Ubuntu or any type of Linux for that matter. But yeah, I've never really met anyone else who uses linux.

[acidboot3r]

The thought of women using Linux intrigues me. In fact..I find that rather sexy ^^!!!


GO WOMEN GO! :D

[SushiR]

I found the idea of having an own subsection very amusing - but nevertheless a nice idea. I've been using Linux since Autum 2002 and I'm feeling very comfortable with it - expect from casual annoyances (like KDE4 *g* or minor problems with hardware). My boyfriend works for Red Hat (web team) so we can help each other - in case there's need for help.

Guys are always a bit irritated that I use Linux just for fun. Someone once asked me 3(!) times a row if it's nothing to do with my job. But in general I've never occured any problems in linux forums. Asking a guy for help is not different from asking a girl. But the difference is when a girl is asking for help. It's all like "Hellooooo, I'm just a poooooor little grrrrrl that needs a niiiiice guy that can fix aaaaaall my problems. (I'd rather do that myself but I'm a bit lazy! And the guys love linux chicks so surely someone will help!)". I found this attitude annoying :-)

Sushi

[agnes]

I've read the FAQ but, not to be offensive, I still find it a bit weird that you created a separate community.

As for the Mentor thing... I think that's a good idea because there are many unspoken rules in working environments which you may not understand if you're a minority in that environment. But this project is larger (e.g. this forum).

If women are harassed by sexist attitudes and comments by men then why not make some stricter rules in the community (esp. fora) about those topics. So that people get a reprimand when they're being really sexist.
I don't know if there's already a discrimination-report-point?

I'm pretty sure the whole gender-emancipation thing is now (becoming) more of a men's thing, i.e. men (need to) change now. The most straightforward way to achieve that seems to me to just involve, so that sexist guys get confronted with females who don't fit their stereotypes. If not they will stay in their own worlds.
And, as most misogynists actually hate their own female part, they may get more comfortable with the "female side of life" so they may actually accept their female part more (this happens unconsciously of course).
Same may also still hold for some women: to discover their "manly" side. Some women can be so sensitive.

Furthermore, one of the ideas behind this project seems to be to encourage "normal" women to become more tech-savvy. Well that just isn't gonna work above a certain limit I guess, or at least it will take 3 or more generations. Most women are just not interested in technical stuff like computers - due to genetical differences. (You know, the kibbutz experiments?)

The feeling I have with this project is that now people (m/f) are inclined to see women more as being all the same - because they have a separate community; and because the idea behind it seems that (almost) every women can become tech-savvy, so that actually the average female has exactly the same predisposition towards knowing technical stuff as the "geeky" females that are here - which is, I believe, just not true.
This affects the estimation of the girls here because guys will compare them to the average girl and therefore automatically think, "they're less smart with technology".

To me a better solution seems to accept/embrace the fact that the girls/women using Ubuntu are a genetical deviation from the norm, just like the gays using Ubuntu are a deviation from the average gay (which uses a Mac of course :P) - as for lesbians, I have no idea what they use (I just mention them so nobody can blame me for not mentioning them, while mentioning their male counterparts).

Of course nothing of the above should withhold people from improving the position of Ubuntu-minorities.

[bapoumba]

Thread merged.

This is not a separate community. ubuntu-women is a ubuntu project. ubuntuforums can host third party projects provided they do not have their own forums (same for LoCos). Here are other examples:
http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46

There is no discrimination-specific reports. We are under the UF CoC (http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy) umbrella that covers a lot of situations, we try to be inclusive of everyone. Posts can be reported by clicking on the little icon on the left http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/report.gif

I'm not quite sure I agree with your "genetic deviation of the norm".. To me, if there is any issue, it's based on culture and education, nothing more, nothing less. No biology or genetics involved.

[SushiR]

To me a better solution seems to accept/embrace the fact that the girls/women using Ubuntu are a genetical deviation from the norm (...)

I really don't see the point why "Jane User" should be different from "Joe User". It's basically just a person who uses (Ubuntu) Linux, not more, not less. Still everyone gets excited about Linux chicks - why is that? There's no need to make such a fuzz about female linux users...

[elizabeth]

I really don't see the point why "Jane User" should be different from "Joe User". It's basically just a person who uses (Ubuntu) Linux, not more, not less.

In a perfect world, "Jane User" is no different than "Joe User" but we don't live in a perfect world :) Men and women are often treated differently within the community and the project seeks to address that.

You may want to check out the project page, and my recent Ubuntu Open Week session discussing the project:

http://ubuntu-women.org/
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekJaunty/UbuntuWomen

Still everyone gets excited about Linux chicks - why is that? There's no need to make such a fuzz about female linux users...

This group isn't about "getting excited" about women using Linux. it's about getting more women involved with Ubuntu.

[SushiR]

In a perfect world, "Jane User" is no different than "Joe User" but we don't live in a perfect world :) Men and women are often treated differently within the community and the project seeks to address that.In over 6 years of being a Linux user, I've never encountered different treatment because of me being a women and I never even expected to be treated in a different manner.

This group isn't about "getting excited" about women using Linux. it's about getting more women involved with Ubuntu.
I understand what this group is about. But I found the idea behind the project unnecessary. In fact, I think the whole issue of emancipation is a boring subject and overrated. If a user (m/f) is interesting in getting involved in a project, he (or she) is free to join. It's about skill, talent, interest - not about gender, not about quota.

[aysiu]

In over 6 years of being a Linux user, I've never encountered different treatment because of me being a women and I never even expected to be treated in a different manner. And in four years of Linux use, I've never encountered a nightmare installation. It doesn't mean nightmare installations do not happen. Just because you haven't felt treated differently, it doesn't mean women generally aren't.

[scottuss]

I hate sexism and inequality in general, people are all equal and should be treated the same way. This goes both ways however. Just to play devils advocate here, if I started a project called Ubuntu Men, it would be called sexist, no? I think it would. Anyway, just making a point.

Oh and I'm sick of certain organisations (Here's looking at you BCS) trying to get more women in IT. Women who want to be in IT should be treated exactly the same as men, no more, no less.

The FACT is that the majority of women do not want to be in IT, so we should not push. They will lack the drive and possibly skills if they have no interest, and the last thing we need is more incompetents in this industry, female or otherwise.

[aysiu]

I hate sexism and inequality in general, people are all equal and should be treated the same way. This goes both ways however. Just to play devils advocate here, if I started a project called Ubuntu Men, it would be called sexist, no? I think it would. Anyway, just making a point. Your point is extremely simplistic, unfortunately.

In the ideal world, I would treat my arm and leg equally. But if my leg is more prone to getting cut or bruised, wouldn't it make sense to give my leg medical treatment and not my arm?

Likewise, if women face discrimination more in the Linux world, wouldn't it make sense to address that discrimination?

[scottuss]

Your point is extremely simplistic, unfortunately.

In the ideal world, I would treat my arm and leg equally. But if my leg is more prone to getting cut or bruised, wouldn't it make sense to give my leg medical treatment and not my arm?

Likewise, if women face discrimination more in the Linux world, wouldn't it make sense to address that discrimination?

And my point is simplistic? :-s

[aysiu]

And my point is simplistic? :-s
Yes, it is.

In my analogy, you would refuse medical attention to the wounded limb because that's "discriminating against" the unwounded limb.

Simplistic: All limbs must be treated exactly the same in all circumstances. Otherwise, that's discrimination.

Complex: All limbs should be treated equally. In some situations, that means limbs that are harmed may need extra care to restore to a healthy state. And some limbs that are healthy still may not receive the same resources, because they don't need those resources.

Your point is simplistic because you're trying to apply a legitimate generalization to all circumstances without regard to the situation. It would be a bit like trying to edit the registry to fix a computer problem, even if you were using Mac OS X or Linux. One solution or approach does not work for all situations.

[Didius Falco]

I don't understand the resentment and angst about it. If it's a project you aren't interested in, whether you are a male or a female, then don't participate. It's not mandatory...

Personally, I think it's a great idea, one that could and should be applied towards other groups. I live in Australia, and I'd love to see some kind of outreach towards lots of groups - school kids, inner city youths in particular, the Aboriginal communities, women of all ages, etc.

The very word Ubuntu, and the meaning behind it, was a very large part of why I was drawn to this particular linux distribution. What could embody the true spirit of Ubuntu more than trying to bring everyone into the circle and let them know they are as valued as anyone else?

It's not all idealism, either. The more people who are in the community, the more people we will have that will make contributions to the community that will benefit us all. In fact, just having them in the community is a benefit in itself.

It's all win-win to me...

[scottuss]

Yes, it is.

In my analogy, you would refuse medical attention to the wounded limb because that's "discriminating against" the unwounded limb.

Simplistic: All limbs must be treated exactly the same in all circumstances. Otherwise, that's discrimination.

Complex: All limbs should be treated equally. In some situations, that means limbs that are harmed may need extra care to restore to a healthy state. And some limbs that are healthy still may not receive the same resources, because they don't need those resources.

Your point is simplistic because you're trying to apply a legitimate generalization to all circumstances without regard to the situation. It would be a bit like trying to edit the registry to fix a computer problem, even if you were using Mac OS X or Linux. One solution or approach does not work for all situations.

Actually reading back through my post and your replies, I've come to the conclusion that you are trying to over complicate what I said with an analogy about limbs. Although rhetorical, did you consider the question I posed? If I started a project called Ubuntu Men it would be considered sexist would it not? Forget limbs for just one second :P

By the way, I don't in any way mean to say the Ubuntu women project is a bad thing entirely, I was just voicing an opinion and posing a rhetorical question to raise discussion. I don't mean to offend anyone.

[elizabeth]

I don't understand the resentment and angst about it. If it's a project you aren't interested in, whether you are a male or a female, then don't participate. It's not mandatory...

The trouble is the frequently women are driven out of projects because of negative behavior toward them. Sure, if I'm interested in a project I'll volunteer my time with it. But if I join said project, am constantly feeling ostracized, insulted and out of place, the pull of the core project may quickly becomes undesirable until I leave entirely or find some other way to cope (by not being involved socially, or not disclosing my gender at all, or by finding a support group like Ubuntu Women).

Personally, I think it's a great idea, one that could and should be applied towards other groups. I live in Australia, and I'd love to see some kind of outreach towards lots of groups - school kids, inner city youths in particular, the Aboriginal communities, women of all ages, etc.

Then you're in luck!

https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-youth
https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu.students (and even moreso, the entire Edubuntu project)

For more check out the Ubuntu For All umbrella group:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForAll/

The reasons for all these subgroups is that the focus is different. The challenges facing a youth are very different than that facing a woman, so each group focuses on targeting the specific issues within their specific group. It works out much better than a collective "let us fix everything for everyone" team because the chances of someone being lost in the noise drops significantly.

Anyone is welcome to create such a project :)

[elizabeth]

If I started a project called Ubuntu Men it would be considered sexist would it not?

The #ubuntu-men channel has been registered on freenode for years by someone who genuinely wanted it to exist. No one has ever had a problem with it. You're perfectly welcome to join it, but last I checked not even the founder spends time there anymore. The Ubuntu community as a whole simply doesn't seem to feel discrimination against men is a problem at this point. If that point comes then the development of that project is perfectly acceptable.

It's important to remember that this is all community-driven. Key women within the Ubuntu project feel that the Ubuntu Women project is important and useful, so we choose to spend some of our time working on it. Anyone is welcome to do the same for any group, and they have! And of course you're welcome to disagree and not be a part of it.

[Didius Falco]

The trouble is the frequently women are driven out of projects because of negative behavior toward them. Sure, if I'm interested in a project I'll volunteer my time with it. But if I join said project, am constantly feeling ostracized, insulted and out of place, the pull of the core project may quickly becomes undesirable until I leave entirely or find some other way to cope (by not being involved socially, or not disclosing my gender at all, or by finding a support group like Ubuntu Women).

I strongly feel that is a leadership issue. The "tone" of any group emanates from the leadership. While, in an ideal world, everyone would just get along, in the real world,many will do whatever they can get away with.

Leadership needs to take a kind but firm approach, offering counsel as to what behavior will not be tolerated, a chance to change that behavior (which is always the desired path), but a show firm resolve to not tolerate undesirable behavior.

I spent years in management, and I've dealt with many "toxic" people, some of them brilliant. Even the most brilliant was not worth what it cost in terms of morale and direction to keep.

I'll have to look deeper into the goals of the Ubuntu Womens' Group. From what very little I do know, I was under the impression it was mostly aimed at getting more women involved in Ubuntu.

Unfortunately, as I've just been learning about linux in general and Ubuntu in particular for about 6 weeks, I'm going to have to focus on increasing my knowledge in general before I can be of much use to the community.

I do hope that eventually I'll feel comfortable enough with my level of knowledge to branch out from the student level into other areas where I can give back some of what I am receiving.

One thing I can do, and would anyway, is not tolerate behavior that is misogynistic, racist, etc.

Regards,

Didius

[Trollslayer]

Well, as a woman using Ubuntu I think this is a great idea. I'm normally happy enough asking my questions in the Ubuntu forums - because the answers I get a helpfull and people a generally polite.

BUT - and there is a but - looking in news groups and other forum web pages I have often found myself wondering how people can talk to each other like that. My most resent experience:



I didn't know whether to laugh or cry :-?

- Henriette

I once had a spotty teeanger tell me I couldn't know how Ethernet hardware worked. :mad:

Elaine xx

[RabbitWho]

Oh my god.. The fact that this forum even exists is making me literally physically sick. I thought the whole ubuntu forums was for human beings. I didn't realise we were a sub-section of that.

Is it some kind of a joke? Tell me it's some kind of a joke.

I've never felt so patronised. It never occured to me before finding this forum that my gender would play any part whatsoever in my being here or in using linux.

Can someone please tell me what command I need so that the computer will realise I'm a girl and treat me differently? Or is it incorporated into the gui somewhere? Because that would be easier.

[macogw]

Oh my god.. The fact that this forum even exists is making me literally physically sick. I thought the whole ubuntu forums was for human beings. I didn't realise we were a sub-section of that.

Is it some kind of a joke? Tell me it's some kind of a joke.

I've never felt so patronised. It never occured to me before finding this forum that my gender would play any part whatsoever in my being here or in using linux.

Can someone please tell me what command I need so that the computer will realise I'm a girl and treat me differently? Or is it incorporated into the gui somewhere? Because that would be easier.

This forum exists as part of the Ubuntu Women Project (http://women.ubuntu.com), a project aimed at supporting and encouraging women to join the community. Our forum, mailing list, and IRC channel are meant to be safe spaces, free of the harassment and sexism often found elsewhere (though, in truth, the Ubuntu community in general seems to handle this better than other communities, thanks to the Code of Conduct).

Of course, technical stuff still goes in the technical forums. This is a social sub-forum.

PS: If you'd read what Lyz (pleia2) said above, you probably would've gotten that already.

[RabbitWho]

This forum exists as part of the Ubuntu Women Project (http://women.ubuntu.com), a project aimed at supporting and encouraging women to join the community. Our forum, mailing list, and IRC channel are meant to be safe spaces, free of the harassment and sexism often found elsewhere (though, in truth, the Ubuntu community in general seems to handle this better than other communities, thanks to the Code of Conduct).

Of course, technical stuff still goes in the technical forums. This is a social sub-forum.

PS: If you'd read what Lyz (pleia2) said above, you probably would've gotten that already.


I'll never get it! How is getting a girl into linux going to be any different than with a boy?

I don't think vaginas and ovaries have any bearing on computers whatsoever! Maybe I don't know enough about them (vaginas ovaries and computers) and it will become clear eventually.

As for harassment and sexism, I'm not a child I don't want to be mollycoddled. This whole project suggests we are in some way different to men when it comes to computers and we're not. This isn't running or boxing. The whole thing is ridiculous. Would you make a separate "project" for black people just because a few idiots make some remarks about them?


Look it's just not for me, if you guys think that being a woman has had some kind of effect on your Linux experience then fine.

[macogw]

I'll never get it! How is getting a girl into linux going to be any different than with a boy?

I don't think vaginas and ovaries have any bearing on computers whatsoever! Maybe I don't know enough about them (vaginas ovaries and computers) and it will become clear eventually.

As for harassment and sexism, I'm not a child I don't want to be mollycoddled. This whole project suggests we are in some way different to men when it comes to computers and we're not. This isn't running or boxing. The whole thing is ridiculous. Would you make a separate "project" for black people just because a few idiots make some remarks about them?


Look it's just not for me, if you guys think that being a woman has had some kind of effect on your Linux experience then fine.
Of course being a woman doesn't affect your skills. It's more of "we know sexist jokes, inappropriate advances, and inappropriate images are part of the community and off-putting to many women. We don't believe they should have to 'grow a thicker skin' just to participate. And so, we want to fight against the people who make free software a crappy community for everyone that's not part of the Old Boys Club."

Maybe you should take a look at http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents Though you might not feel uncomfortable when someone puts a nearly naked woman on a slide for a technical presentation, please understand that there are women who DO feel uncomfortable in that situation and may leave because of it. I've scaled back my involvement in an Ubuntu team because of something inappropriate that was said to me by one of the members of that team. After a few years, it just gets old having to deal with guys saying things like:
- Oh, you use Linux? Will you marry me?
- So, which guy are you here with? (because women don't go to tech conferences unless its as arm-candy, right?)
- You're just dating him so he'll fix your bugs
- Oh, your boyfriend fixed that? (when the patch clearly says your name)
- Hey! A GIRL!

And so...the point is to have somewhere to go where you won't have guys asking "pix plz" or doubting whether you're really female because of your skills or doubting your skills because you're female...

And hey, maybe you've got a thick enough skin that you don't need a "no jerkwads allowed" environment. Fine. But not all of us have that thick skin, and we'd rather not have those people being scared away. Right now, they are being scared away though. The hostile-to-women environment has created a community where only 1.5% of contributors are women. We know women have the skills to do this...heck, more than 25% of developers in the commercial world are women. But in the office, being inappropriate gets one fired. In the free software world...it's just part of being a guy, and how dare any woman presume to tell a man that what he said was sexist or made her uncomfortable? And how dare she try to make a man act like a woman...not even asking a woman to sleep with him! What kind of man doesn't hit on every woman he sees? A sissy, that's what kind. Well...bull. I don't buy the argument that men can't help themselves and that for them to behave like normal human beings around women would make them less of men.

Retention is a problem. Guys are socialised to "talk big" and women are socialised to be humble. So when a new person joins and asks for help and a guy gives them a tongue-lashing...if the new user is a guy, he's been taught to react by fighting back and showing "how much of a man he is." Girls are taught to be non-confrontational...and so more likely to back down, decide they must just not be as good at this stuff...and leave.

[Little Bit]

I for one am grateful to have a "safe" place to talk about Ubuntu. I've only been on Ubunbtu forums and Linux forums (http://linuxforums.org) a very short time and already received a half-dozen inappropriate private messages and two that were posted to the public forum (reported and removed). I'm not offended easily, but I'm bothered by all the "let's see a picture" and "Oh, what fun I could have with you, baby" stuff that appears from time to time.

I changed my avatar from a photo of me to an anime, but I might change it again to some generic Ubuntu logo or penguin thing and stop signing my name to my posts. Just to avoid the hassle, not because I'm unskilled, but because guys can be such pigs sometimes.

So I'm grateful to have a little corner of Ubuntu forums that might be less prone to that kind of thing.

Amy

[elizabeth]

So I'm grateful to have a little corner of Ubuntu forums that might be less prone to that kind of thing.

For me it's the safe place PLUS people who can sympathize. It's nice to talk to others who understand how frustrating (and sometimes scary!) it can be to be spoken to in certain ways in public or in private. Feeling less alone helps me cope much better and take it in stride.

[RabbitWho]

Of course being a woman doesn't affect your skills. It's more of "we know sexist jokes, inappropriate advances, and inappropriate images are part of the community and off-putting to many women. We don't believe they should have to 'grow a thicker skin' just to participate. And so, we want to fight against the people who make free software a crappy community for everyone that's not part of the Old Boys Club."

Maybe you should take a look at http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline_of_incidents
Wow, a list of all the reasons how I am different, while all this time I thought I was equal. What a service that website is doing the community! Digging up information to prove that we truly are oppressed! Oh my! The whole website is archaic sexist dribble. "Don't call us girls, don't say we're irrational and hysterical, we are just emotional" http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Elementary_mistakes
The whole website is unprofessional, hysterical, a big rant that would look ridiculous on a facebook blog.


Women you've just met aren't any more likely to be your friend or be sympathetic about your marital difficulties, job woes, depression or similar, and do not find that having strangers force emotional intimacy on them makes geekdom more welcoming and friendly. Save the personal revelations for your friend.

- So obviously thinking about a specific person and a specific event, and lashing out angrily in public. This sort of stupidity is the reason why people don't take feminism seriously any more and why it has become a dirty word, which is a pity because many parts of our society still genuinely require evaluation (and evolution).
That angst-machine does not speak for me and I resent the implication that she might.

Though you might not feel uncomfortable when someone puts a nearly naked woman on a slide for a technical presentation, please understand that there are women who DO feel uncomfortable in that situation and may leave because of it. I've scaled back my involvement in an Ubuntu team because of something inappropriate that was said to me by one of the members of that team. After a few years, it just gets old having to deal with guys saying things like:
- Oh, you use Linux? Will you marry me?
- So, which guy are you here with? (because women don't go to tech conferences unless its as arm-candy, right?)
- You're just dating him so he'll fix your bugs
- Oh, your boyfriend fixed that? (when the patch clearly says your name)
- Hey! A GIRL!
And so...the point is to have somewhere to go where you won't have guys asking "pix plz" or doubting whether you're really female because of your skills or doubting your skills because you're female...
And hey, maybe you've got a thick enough skin that you don't need a "no jerkwads allowed" environment. Fine. But not all of us have that thick skin, and we'd rather not have those people being scared away. Right now, they are being scared away though. The hostile-to-women environment has created a community where only 1.5% of contributors are women.
We know women have the skills to do this...heck, more than 25% of developers in the commercial world are women. But in the office, being inappropriate gets one fired. In the free software world...it's just part of being a guy, and how dare any woman presume to tell a man that what he said was sexist or made her uncomfortable? And how dare she try to make a man act like a woman...not even asking a woman to sleep with him! What kind of man doesn't hit on every woman he sees? A sissy, that's what kind. Well...bull. I don't buy the argument that men can't help themselves and that for them to behave like normal human beings around women would make them less of men.
I can understand there must be a need for a sub-community if there are people that feel that they need it. Just count me out.


Retention is a problem. Guys are socialised to "talk big" and women are socialised to be humble. So when a new person joins and asks for help and a guy gives them a tongue-lashing...if the new user is a guy, he's been taught to react by fighting back and showing "how much of a man he is." Girls are taught to be non-confrontational...and so more likely to back down, decide they must just not be as good at this stuff...and leave.That's nonsense. It sounds like something from a costume-drama. Women are just as capable and just as likely to stand up for themselves as men. But you reinforce stereotypes all you want.
You're talking about people being "socialised" to do certain things what about that "Do your daughters use Ubuntu" thread? This is a forum to talk about women. Forget about sons, they are men, so who cares if they use it because their lives are easy and they know nothing of the struggle, which is what we're interested in, how different we are and how hard we have to fight to be accepted in a mans world. Because that's soooo interesting.
What ever happened to "raise boys and girls the same?"


Anyway I overreacted to this and I'm sorry. This just isn't my thing. I'm pretty pleased to be female and would be somewhat suicidal if i woke up a man tomorrow, but other than that my gender and sex don't particularly interest me and I'm so confident in the stupidity of sexist people that I guess, yeah, I am pretty thick skinned. Sticks and stones, yanno?

[Swagman]

/Bloke adds his tuppence ha'penny

Some guys are more "Blokey" than others.. I think Macho is the term.

Some girls are more "Girly" than others. <--- Feminine ?


Viva la difference.

/exits stage right

[Little Bit]

Just so you know, alot of us women and girls do not "take feminism seriously" either. It has become a militant man-hating example of political correctness run amok, and I want no part of it. Too much damage has been done in the name of feminism, and its silly assumptions about women as "victims" of unfair treatment by evil, brutish males.

I happen to admire and love guys, especially the ones who are kind and thoughtful and sensitive. But I do not insist that they stop being who they are, any more than you seem to insist that we become something we are not (or do not wish to be).

People who claim to speak for all women and all girls are simply not being fair. They don't speak for me, and I refuse to be pressed into someone else' mold - not by any male-dominated culture, and not by a feminist one, and not by you.

If you choose not to participate, fine. But stop dissing those of us who do, and those of us who appreciate the work that others have done to provide us with a place to do it in relative comfort and safety.

Amy

[RabbitWho]

Just so you know, alot of us women and girls do not "take feminism seriously" either. It has become a militant man-hating example of political correctness run amok, and I want no part of it. Too much damage has been done in the name of feminism, and its silly assumptions about women as "victims" of unfair treatment by evil, brutish males.

I happen to admire and love guys, especially the ones who are kind and thoughtful and sensitive. But I do not insist that they stop being who they are, any more than you seem to insist that we become something we are not (or do not wish to be).

People who claim to speak for all women and all girls are simply not being fair. They don't speak for me, and I refuse to be pressed into someone else' mold - not by any male-dominated culture, and not by a feminist one, and not by you.

If you choose not to participate, fine. But stop dissing those of us who do, and those of us who appreciate the work that others have done to provide us with a place to do it in relative comfort and safety.

Amy


I did not diss any of you! Not once! I Except for whoever the teenager was that wrote that horrible backwards "wiki" as she claimed to speak for me. Constantly refering to women as "us" and then saying ridiculous things about "us" and how "we" feel about things.
I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!

[elizabeth]

I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!

I won't bother correcting your other misconceptions about the project, but this one is important.

The project does not seek to segregate women in the slightest, all of us are members of the wider project, and many of us also contribute to projects upstream such as Debian and KDE. This is simply a place where some of us choose to spend time to encourage each other, because whether you choose to believe us or not, the truth is that there are specific barriers that most women entering F/OSS face and these barriers cause some to give up. We'd like to see this trend reversed.

You might also want to check out the Ubuntu Women FAQ (http://ubuntu-women.org/faq.html)

[macogw]

Just so you know, alot of us women and girls do not "take feminism seriously" either. It has become a militant man-hating example of political correctness run amok, and I want no part of it. Too much damage has been done in the name of feminism, and its silly assumptions about women as "victims" of unfair treatment by evil, brutish males.
Awww not all feminists are feminazis. Just the intersection of feminists and jerks. Some just really do want to be treated equally, not to put down guys.

[macogw]

I did not diss any of you! Not once! I Except for whoever the teenager was that wrote that horrible backwards "wiki" as she claimed to speak for me. Constantly refering to women as "us" and then saying ridiculous things about "us" and how "we" feel about things.
I already said if you want to segregate yourself that's fine, just count me out!

Regarding the wiki...maybe see Why We Document (http://geekfeminism.org/2009/08/19/why-we-document/)? The gist of it is so that there's something we can point to when people say "I've never noticed sexism in open source, thus there is none." Yes, well...I've never seen a black swan, but that doesn't mean they don't exist.

[aysiu]

Apart from Valerie Solanas, I've never met or read a man-hating feminist. Most of the man-haters I know are decidedly non-feminist or anti-feminist. Feminism isn't about hating men. It's about hating the patriarchy, which at once both privileges and damages men. Patriarchy ultimately isn't good for anyone. I'm a man and have never felt hated by any feminist.

[Elisavan]

Mmmm... Just kindof my 'umbrella'-type personal two-cents regarding the erm... heated argument going on >_> Detailed as follows:

As a blue-eyed Redhead with fair skin (which is a relatively rare complextion where I come from/grew up), I was always sort of 'different'. Never quite normal enough to be ignored, but nowhere near smart enough to warran that sort of attention. >_> Without going into a needlessly long personal history (Which most who know me personally will affirm that I am well capable of doing) I'll tell it plainly that I have a somewhat unique response to being 'singled-out' as a female in a techy field.

For instance, from middle school through my High School graduation, I was very involved with technology, and I mostly hung out with my guy friends who also found interest in techy stuff. It is fair to say that I thrive in the spotlight (but not on stage, I love attention), and a fair number of the tech classes I took had 1 female amidst 19 hormonal boys. (Yes, -boys-, they weren't mature enough to warrant any other term =P) That aside, however, I enjoyed being the only chick in the class, and thrived on the knowledge that I was as good and a little better than at least half the class.

I took the challenge of being a minority (in more than one way) and I thrived on it. I've been this way for a long time, and I probably won't ever change. ((I currently love being the only redheaded student in my Arabic class, it totally rocks! Especially when I know the answers XP)) I wouldn't go so far as to classify myself as having 'tough-skin', because I do get down sometimes, and the comments (previously mentioned, as I've witnessed many) are occasionally too much to turn into fuel to overcome the challenge.

I changed to Linux for a number of reasons, one of the smaller ones being that it presented a challenge, and was often looked upon with respect from programmers in the tech field. Phrases like, "Wow! Linux?! That's hard, isn't it?", to which I try to reply to as accurately as I can, are things I often hear now. I enjoy the respect that some bestow upon me, not because I'm a chick who knows her way (at least mediocrely) around a computer system (let alone Linux), or because I'm a female who uses Linux, but because I'm able to use Linux -at all, period-.

One of the things that I haven't experienced a bunch of is the reports of 'feminism', etc. Perhaps it is just because I haven't been here long enough, or mabye (through my history) I just don't hear them the same way anymore and I don't notice them. But I know I don't have 'tough-skin', and yet, here I am: alive and well.

Truth be told, it would be nice to have a few friendly pointers to threads that are beneficial to the beginner Linux user, regardless of gender, as Linux is generally a somewhat intimidating OS to even think of, let alone speak... and don't even consider -trying- it. In that sense, the same thing that makes Linux respected (as I referenced above), in the sense of it not being anything to be sneezed at, combined with a moderate lack of a mass-collection of links and things to help us beginners get on our way to Linux 'stardom'.

As a general note and suggestion, I would like to see one of these 'link hubs' for Linux newbs crop up from the hands of the experienced, who know what comprises the basic building blocks of Ubuntu/Linx/what-have-you, and which paint color goes well with the couch. What I mean by that is, I want to know where to begin, the next five steps (or so), and then have a nice friendly pointer in the direction I'm headed. I'm not asking for anyone to tell me exactly how to build my User Interface or everything I'll need for all the programs I'll want down the road (that's pretty ridiculous to want that sort of detail). In less words: A Linux newb friendly skeleton guide for starting up a successful system. Whether that includes learning my way around the shell or bash scripting, or if all I really need for now is a good up-to-date-version of Wine (or what-have-you), those are the sorts of things that would be nice to know.


I know I said I wouldn't make it long, and I do recall using the phrase 'two-cents'.... but in my defense: I do have a rather talkative nature (see 'loving spotlight', referenced above), and by that token, I have a somewhat different view of what is a 'short' description. I've been known to tell people why a potatoe should be in x-location in the process of telling them who put it there. >_> 10minutes for a 1 word answer.

Hopefully my intent is clear, but I'll insert a safety disclaimer here: I meant to step on no toes, and in no way 'take-a-side', the story related herein should be treated excatly as such: my story, nobody else has to agree or disagree, just accept that I'm entitled to my own opinions ^_~*


Much love and peace,
Elisavan

P.S. - (Did I mention: I love being here, and I'm very glad that this thread is here. It gives women a common ground to come back to, bounce off of, share insight in, offer moral support (when things go awry), and a multitude of unforeseen benefits. I am pleased, and I can't help but look forward to meeting everyone!)

[elizabeth]

As a general note and suggestion, I would like to see one of these 'link hubs' for Linux newbs crop up from the hands of the experienced, who know what comprises the basic building blocks of Ubuntu/Linx/what-have-you, and which paint color goes well with the couch. What I mean by that is, I want to know where to begin, the next five steps (or so), and then have a nice friendly pointer in the direction I'm headed. I'm not asking for anyone to tell me exactly how to build my User Interface or everything I'll need for all the programs I'll want down the road (that's pretty ridiculous to want that sort of detail). In less words: A Linux newb friendly skeleton guide for starting up a successful system. Whether that includes learning my way around the shell or bash scripting, or if all I really need for now is a good up-to-date-version of Wine (or what-have-you), those are the sorts of things that would be nice to know.


Given this goal, you may be interested in getting involved with the Beginners Team (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BeginnersTeam). They have a presence on the forums, IRC and have all kinds of teams that help with the kind of documentation for folks who are new to Ubuntu. I think your suggestion would be useful to them, especially if you were willing to work on it and collaborate with them to weave it into existing documentation :)