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executor
January 11th, 2007, 03:58 AM
is this real or a publicity stunt :)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352.html

macogw
January 11th, 2007, 04:05 AM
Wait, they helped with XP too? Uh, not so sure how great the NSA is white-hat. Maybe they should ask white-hats, secure against them, then try to get a few black-hats to act grey for a bit. I kind of get the idea that black-hats are ahead of white-hats because white-hats learn from a book. Black-hats learn that stuff, then go out and find 0day that the white-hats didn't learn in a book and that the NSA's white-hats have no idea about.

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 04:08 AM
why do I feel like that this could mean eaves dropping.......or putting back doors into vista so if the nsa needs your computer info, they got it......

jbus
January 11th, 2007, 04:11 AM
It's just the NSA making sure that all the NSA backdoors are in place in the next version of Windows as they have done with previous versions of Windows. Funny how they are trying to spin this as some kind of security benefit to consumers.

NeoLithium
January 11th, 2007, 04:12 AM
BINGO, I don't trust the NSA as it is, now that they're in an OS as deep as they are? HELL NO, I'm glad I have nothin but linux on every computer in my house.

RRS
January 11th, 2007, 04:13 AM
Let's see now,
Last year MS set up XP to "call home" without the user's knowledge......
And now the've gotten "help" from the NSA (and who knows who else?) for Vista?.......

Maybe we're not just paranoid after all?

jbus
January 11th, 2007, 04:18 AM
Seriously, if this isn't reason enough for foreign governments and corporations to drop Windows, I don't know what is.

Koori23
January 11th, 2007, 04:18 AM
We must understand that the NSA can and does use the media to their advantage. Also, the NSA's entire existence is crack and intercept intel from foreign governments. So, I'd imagine that they'd know how to do the things that Microsoft doesn't want to have happen (worms, bugs, OS Control). After all, Americans won't be the only one's purchasing Vista.

On the other hand, since Microsoft asked for their help, one could reach the conclusion that the NSA would be one step ahead of the game and know exactly how the overcome any obstacles a software vendor would put into place. It's an interesting paradox really. I'm not trying to drum up a conspiracy theory but.. I don't understand why they went public with it.

~LoKe
January 11th, 2007, 04:20 AM
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.

jbus
January 11th, 2007, 04:28 AM
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.

So then you would support random police searches of your home for no reason, just because you are doing nothing illegal???

Sad that people are willing to give up privacy for no reason. What a great way to ruin the world for future generations. You will eventually realize what you have given away, but by then it will be too late.

NeoLithium
January 11th, 2007, 04:30 AM
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.

It's the entire point that I don't want someone reading my email or knowing any of my credit card numbers. It makes no difference whatsoever that I don't want to do those things; the point is, that my family email and purchases, and even my online games are NO ones business but those that I agree to inform.

DoktorSeven
January 11th, 2007, 04:33 AM
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.

Please rethink your position. Privacy of any kind is too valuable to be thrown away.

If you want to open up your entire life to government scrutiny, go right ahead. The rest of us would like to enjoy some privacy, thanks.

gorilla
January 11th, 2007, 04:35 AM
While it's scary and I don't trust neither Microsoft nor the NSA not to build in backdoors..

One should also note that it was the NSA who developed SELinux. An implementation for a new security model that toughens computers against attackers, including the NSA of course.


Ah, and privacy is even much underrated today, at least by the general public, btw ;)

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 04:35 AM
hmmm... chinas red flag linux......wasnt this developed because they were afraid of backdoors in windows??

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 04:41 AM
FIrst we let them spy on our computers in the name of security, then we let them search our homes, then we let them detain and arrest anyone on suspicions. Hello big brother, good bye civil liberties.

~LoKe
January 11th, 2007, 04:43 AM
So then you would support random police searches of your home for no reason, just because you are doing nothing illegal???

Sad that people are willing to give up privacy for no reason. What a great way to ruin the world for future generations. You will eventually realize what you have given away, but by then it will be too late.

I'm just not paranoid. The government isn't "out to get us". And do you honestly think something like that could be hidden from all of its users? You know someone would eventually figure out the "plot".

If this is too much for you to handle, use a different operating system.

Oh, and read "Digital Fortress" if you wish to increase your paranoia.


FIrst we let them spy on our computers in the name of security, then we let them search our homes, then we let them detain and arrest anyone on suspicions. Hello big brother, good bye civil liberties.

There are different degrees of breaching one's privacy, just because you "let" them do one thing, doesn't mean you have to step aside and let the rest go.

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 04:51 AM
I'm just not paranoid. The government isn't "out to get us". And do you honestly think something like that could be hidden from all of its users? You know someone would eventually figure out the "plot".

If this is too much for you to handle, use a different operating system.

Oh, and read "Digital Fortress" if you wish to increase your paranoia.

Its a tool that can be used for political and social repression, could of sworn the american revolution was about that. The point is that the declaration of independence and constitution were setup to prevent these things. Why give the government these tools, why do they need these backdoors if there are backdoors??



There are different degrees of breaching one's privacy, just because you "let" them do one thing, doesn't mean you have to step aside and let the rest go.

Right so why are you letting them invade your privacy this time? You have nothing to hide, you are a good person? ok fine then so ok if the government needs to search homes without a warrant or on reasonable grounds, thats ok right? because you are a good person right? and if it keeps the illegal aliens and terrorists out, right? Its ok, right if it keeps you safe. Ok so what happens when the enemy is no longer illegal aliens or terrorists, but political dissidents/oposition?? Now what, what if you all of a sudden are now a target of the state if you haven't done anything.

Hey the government might not be doing anything of the sort now, and I am sure the people who are doing this feel like they are out there to protect you, but this is opening up the doors to a totalitarian/police state.

Arisna
January 11th, 2007, 04:51 AM
And do you honestly think something like that could be hidden from all of its users? You know someone would eventually figure out the "plot".

If this is too much for you to handle, use a different operating system.

This thread is evidence that people are already suspecting some sort of "plot." Also, since this is a forum about a GNU/Linux operating system, most or all people in here have already chosen an operating system other than Windows.

saulgoode
January 11th, 2007, 04:54 AM
I shouldn't think that this would go over too well with foreign governments.

jbus
January 11th, 2007, 04:58 AM
I'm just not paranoid. The government isn't "out to get us". And do you honestly think something like that could be hidden from all of its users? You know someone would eventually figure out the "plot".

Discussion and discovery of NSA keys in the Windows operating system is nothing new. Talk of these keys and what they are for and how they can be used have been discussed at great length for upwards of 5 years. The difference is that this is the first time that it has been marketed as a security benefit to consumers.

It's not a question of whether our government is out to get you or myself... It's a question of whether our government is crossing the line and abusing its power.

maniacmusician
January 11th, 2007, 05:24 AM
I think you guys are overlooking one thing; the NSA doesn't need backdoors. They have the world's most elite working for them; If they want to get into your computer or read your e-mail, they'll do it and don't need a backdoor. While I'm all for privacy just like you guys, I don't think we have it anymore. They can already do what they need to.

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 05:36 AM
I think you guys are overlooking one thing; the NSA doesn't need backdoors. They have the world's most elite working for them; If they want to get into your computer or read your e-mail, they'll do it and don't need a backdoor. While I'm all for privacy just like you guys, I don't think we have it anymore. They can already do what they need to.

this is very true but at the same time if you can put these backdoors into the operating system then it makes your life easier right? I mean even if you are elite, its a hell of a lot easier with a back door then breaking in right?

maniacmusician
January 11th, 2007, 05:45 AM
Sure, but was that the point? For them, the difference will be a few hours or maybe a day at the most. They'll still get what they want, so it's not like you would be any more secure if they didn't build backdoors. They can pretty much own our computers whenever they want.

adewale
January 11th, 2007, 06:13 AM
the back doors would make it easy to harvest large volumes of intel under a short period of time. This type would be used to combat emergencies quicker. But if there's a back door isn't ms trying to shoot itself in d foot? cause those that create malicious softwares are bound to find it out and utilize it efficiently. plz correct me if am wrong

migla
January 11th, 2007, 06:19 AM
FIrst we let them spy on our computers in the name of security, then we let them search our homes, then we let them detain and arrest anyone on suspicions. Hello big brother, good bye civil liberties.

They have allready arrested, held for a few years and then released a lot of people on suspicions, without much explanations or regard for international law.

adam.tropics
January 11th, 2007, 07:18 AM
I think you guys are overlooking one thing; the NSA doesn't need backdoors. They have the world's most elite working for them; If they want to get into your computer or read your e-mail, they'll do it and don't need a backdoor. While I'm all for privacy just like you guys, I don't think we have it anymore. They can already do what they need to.

They will have some of the world's elite, sure, but as they are but one government, and Vista is an Internationally sold product, they are vastly out numbered! There is always gonna be someone brighter, figuring out these insecurities, and letting the world know about them, so I wouldn't worry too much. Also unless something has changed recently, most privacy invading of the US public (certainly the phone networks) is done on behalf of the US government by the Brits, and visa versa. They had an intelligence exchange agreement, exactly because the US public wouldn't be able to stomach being spied on by their own government!

Tomosaur
January 11th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Goodbye liberty!

ssam
January 11th, 2007, 02:22 PM
dont forget they SELinux (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selinux). i think it is default in redhat distros, and can be enabled in most other big distros.

though at least everyone can look at the source code of SELinux.

Dragonbite
January 11th, 2007, 02:25 PM
Yeah, I thought they were involved in SELinux. Although at installation you have the choice to turn it off (but is it really off ... ?).

Good point, though, that SELinux should be visable by anybody who wants to which can make a huge difference over them helping Microsoft... you don't KNOW what they are putting in there (if anything)!

~Tux for President

mykalreborn
January 11th, 2007, 02:36 PM
from what i know, fedora core's security was developed with the help of the NSA. i hope i'm mistaken though.
well... if the NSA helped develop xp's security that means they're doing a pretty poor job:p. now seriously. am i the only one who smells a rat in my dual boot windows-ubuntu computer? i mean. in a few years time they'll porbably erase the word "privacy" from the dictionary.
you can see they're just toying with the unsuspected normal users. they're telling them straight in the face that one of the biggest secret agiencies in the world, the NSA, known to have spied on numerous states - it even says that in the article ;) - is envolved in defense software against SPYING or phishing or trojans or worms and so on... but no way will that agency ever try to use your computer to gain info about you. cmon people! what happened to your judgment?! probably just gone while drinking coke and eating at mcdonalds!
then there is this: "Windows commands more than 90 percent of the worldwide market share in desktop operating systems". isn't this just a bit exaggerated?

argie
January 11th, 2007, 02:37 PM
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.

I feel uncomfortable that some crooked snoop in some other country's security agency could get stuff that I'd like to keep private and even if I couldn't stop them, I'd like to be less of a target. Hey, if I want some of my photos to be for my family only I'm entitled to that, yes?

Not saying that this is what this entitles, just that privacy bit.

This is why I trust Open Source, they can help without me worrying about all this, but then I assume that there are people who actually look at what they write.

rocknrolf77
January 11th, 2007, 02:39 PM
Anyone else read this with opera? It looks horrible. D**** those lousy web designers. Have they never heard about standards? :mad:

mykalreborn
January 11th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by ~LoKe
What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.


it's not about me wanting to blow up something. it's about that instinctive desire to privacy.
what's my bussiness is strictly my bussiness and no one elses.

Bezmotivnik
January 11th, 2007, 03:08 PM
Please rethink your position. Privacy of any kind is too valuable to be thrown away.

If you want to open up your entire life to government scrutiny, go right ahead. The rest of us would like to enjoy some privacy, thanks.
Too late, by about ten tears at least.

You have no privacy left to "throw away," at least not in the US or the EU.

That war was fought and lost a long time ago, before any of you cared -- and total, virtually unopposed victory for the intelligence organs was assured by the 9/11 attacks, which were themselves utterly trivial compared to the policy shifts they excused.

In the early '90s, I wrote extensively (and anonymously) about the future of electronic and internet privacy and the vast possibilities of analytical datamining for domestic intelligence purposes. I said that this would be done under the rubric of "antiterrorism" and described (conjecturally, based on my observations of -- and former participation in -- the sophisticated and ingenious methods of indirect extraction of hard intelligence from seemingly unrelated and "innocent" data by US spy agencies) in detail how this would proceed.

At the time, my predictions were dismissed as "paranoid" by laymen and politically improbable, though technically sound, by experts.

Every single one of them is now an accomplished fact.

There was no effective political opposition to these policies and programs because they accomplish what all major political parties have always desired. They will not go away because one party has achieved temporary ascendancy over the other. They are here to stay. They will grow and prosper. Any public opposition by major politicians is mere posturing.

It's over. There's no getting the toothpaste back in the tube.

Tomosaur
January 11th, 2007, 03:36 PM
Too late, by about ten tears at least.

You have no privacy left to "throw away," at least not in the US or the EU.

That war was fought and lost a long time ago, before any of you cared -- and total, virtually unopposed victory for the intelligence organs was assured by the 9/11 attacks, which were themselves utterly trivial compared to the policy shifts they excused.

In the early '90s, I wrote extensively (and anonymously) about the future of electronic and internet privacy and the vast possibilities of analytical datamining for domestic intelligence purposes. I said that this would be done under the rubric of "antiterrorism" and described (conjecturally, based on my observations of -- and former participation in -- the sophisticated and ingenious methods of indirect extraction of hard intelligence from seemingly unrelated and "innocent" data by US spy agencies) in detail how this would proceed.

At the time, my predictions were dismissed as "paranoid" by laymen and politically improbable, though technically sound, by experts.

Every single one of them is now an accomplished fact.

There was no effective political opposition to these policies and programs because they accomplish what all major political parties have always desired. They will not go away because one party has achieved temporary ascendancy over the other. They are here to stay. They will grow and prosper. Any public opposition by major politicians is mere posturing.

It's over. There's no getting the toothpaste back in the tube.

Except by terrorism!

mykalreborn
January 11th, 2007, 07:06 PM
it's just one big piramid. the people on top take all the shots and hurd all the others to work. only after you would have stopped eating growth hormon food and drinking those checmicals and beliving what people in dark suits say will the issue of no privacy go away, being remembered only like a bad turn in history.
so it's really up to you: are you ready to drop the coke can or do you think i'm bluffing? ;)

riven0
January 14th, 2007, 07:57 AM
I haven't seen this posted anywhere. Quite surprising. The first time I'm aware of this. If any of you value your privacy at all, delete Windows immediately! The NSA has its eyes on all of us. Take a look:


Computer security specialists have been aware for two years that unusual features are contained inside a standard Windows software "driver" used for security and encryption functions. The driver, called ADVAPI.DLL, enables and controls a range of security functions. If you use Windows, you will find it in the C:\Windows\system directory of your computer.

ADVAPI.DLL works closely with Microsoft Internet Explorer, but will only run crypographic functions that the US governments allows Microsoft to export. That information is bad enough news, from a European point of view. Now, it turns out that ADVAPI will run special programmes inserted and controlled by NSA. As yet, no-one knows what these programmes are, or what they do.

More here (http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/5/5263/1.html)...

I wish I knew this years ago, this would explain a lot.:(

Oh, and for those interested in what the NSA did for Vista: For Windows Vista Security, Microsoft Called in Pros (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352.html)

MindRiot
January 14th, 2007, 10:33 AM
The NSA also declined to be specific but said it used two groups -- a "red team" and a "blue team" -- to test Vista's security. The red team, for instance, posed as "the determined, technically competent adversary" to disrupt, corrupt or steal information. "They pretend to be bad guys," Sager said. The blue team helped Defense Department system administrators with Vista's configuration .

So basically you need to be as technically competent as the agents of the NSA to properly configure Windows Vista security.

AlexC_
January 14th, 2007, 10:59 AM
Interesting, but old, article on how the NSA have had special access to every version of Windows since Windows 95. http://www.heise.de/tp/r4/artikel/5/5263/1.html


Now, it turns out that ADVAPI will run special programmes inserted and controlled by NSA. As yet, no-one knows what these programmes are, or what they do.

With that in your mind, and that the NSA are helping "secure" Vista ( http://www.cio.com/blog_view.html?CID=28077 ), you can be sure that you'll never be alone when using Vista! Thank god I use Linux.

ffi
January 14th, 2007, 11:46 AM
The NSA also helped Linux with SELinux....

http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/

rai4shu2
January 14th, 2007, 12:52 PM
It is interesting, and were I a bit more paranoid I might worry that the NSA is "helping" write the video drivers. :p

dvarsam
January 14th, 2007, 11:00 PM
The NSA also helped Linux with SELinux....

http://www.nsa.gov/selinux/

Don't forget also to mention an article I read about 8 weeks ago, stating that NSA was contacting Linux developers to examine/research the vulnerabilities of the Linux OS...
Back then, they claimed that they were interested on joining forces with the Linux developers to help secure (really??? :)) the Linux OS overall...
Am I the only one here thinking...


...That they truly are interested for the exact opposite?

So, dear Linux developers, don't try to help them out in any way, cause in one day they will be snooping in your computers too!!!

Thank.

P.S.> Don't you ever say I didn't warn you...!!!

kevinf311
January 14th, 2007, 11:45 PM
I'd rather have the NSA in my files than Redmond.

punkinside
January 14th, 2007, 11:50 PM
wouldn't any code contributed by the NSA to "secure" linux be open source also?

petersjm
January 15th, 2007, 12:50 AM
wouldn't any code contributed by the NSA to "secure" linux be open source also?

You'd think so! Which would be pretty neat, really. They couldn't drop in any code we didn't want in it...

jclmusic
January 15th, 2007, 04:07 PM
lol i'm so glad i never let windows on the net :)

az
January 15th, 2007, 05:19 PM
This is old news. That article is from 1999.

In 2002 (?) when some of the windows NT source code was leaked, a few people noticed "keys" which (it is suspected) provided some functionality for the NSA.

Anyway, if you want a comprehensive view of security and want to avoid being spied upon, you would have to be sure that none of the servers that host your TCP/IP connections are running an OS that is (or can be) compromised by a certain government agency. You will not be able to do that since you do not get to chose the route that your TCP/IP connections take. So at some levels, we are all screwed.

23meg
January 15th, 2007, 05:24 PM
Anyway, if you want a comprehensive view of security and want to avoid being spied upon, you would have to be sure that none of the servers that host your TCP/IP connections are running an OS that is (or can be) compromised by a certain government agency. You will not be able to do that since you do not get to chose the route that your TCP/IP connections take. So at some levels, we are all screwed.
It's at your discretion to encrypt sensitive data that you send over TCP/IP though. Besides, the alleged NSA backdoor, or some other possible embedded spying service in a closed source OS can compromise local data that you have no intention of sending to others as well.

K.Mandla
January 15th, 2007, 05:40 PM
This part makes me sad. From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352_2.html


Novell, which sells a Linux-based operating system, also works with government agencies on software security issues, spokesman Bruce Lowry said in an e-mail, "but we're not in a position to go into specifics of the who, what, when types of questions."
I wish I could think more highly of Novell.

Redache
January 15th, 2007, 05:42 PM
In the words of the film hackers
"they're trashing our rights man"

mips
January 15th, 2007, 06:32 PM
This part makes me sad. From http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/08/AR2007010801352_2.html


I wish I could think more highly of Novell.

If all the source code is still available then I see no problem.

Randomskk
January 15th, 2007, 06:37 PM
Why do you all see the NSA as some evil entity in everything they do?

They use linux internally, it's in their best interests that it can be as secure as possible.

mips
January 15th, 2007, 06:50 PM
Why do you all see the NSA as some evil entity in everything they do?


Maybe they are linux zealots or maybe they just don't/can't think further than their own noses.

I do not believe the NSA to be all innocent either but this is an open source project, way more gain than harm. you can go look at the code if you want to see if the NSA is screwing you over or not.

dvarsam
January 21st, 2007, 06:34 PM
Why do you all see the NSA as some evil entity in everything they do?

They use Linux internally, it's in their best interests that it can be as secure as possible.

Sure, they use Linux internally, until they get ready for external use too!!! :-\"


...you can go look at the code if you want to see if the NSA is screwing you over or not.

Sure!
But only programmers will be able to see what actually is going on...
And they can secure their systems but NOT yours & mine... if you understand what I mean :)

Thanks.

aysiu
January 21st, 2007, 06:40 PM
I've merged all the NSA threads.

LookTJ
January 21st, 2007, 10:33 PM
Why do I have the thought of NSA is the blame for viruses?

mips
January 21st, 2007, 10:40 PM
Sure, they use Linux internally, until they get ready for external use too!!! :-\"

Sure!
But only programmers will be able to see what actually is going on...
And they can secure their systems but NOT yours & mine... if you understand what I mean :)

Thanks.

Sorry but nothing you said above makes any sense. Care to explain exactly what you mean ?

houstonbofh
January 21st, 2007, 10:57 PM
I've merged all the NSA threads.
No wonder it is so hard to follow the conversation. I was beginning to wonder... Did the NSA tell you to do it? :cool:

Ok so what happens when the enemy is no longer illegal aliens or terrorists, but political dissidents/oposition?? Now what, what if you all of a sudden are now a target of the state if you haven't done anything.
Come on... We all know the enemy is really anyone who has music of movies on there computer. :roll: I wonder if any of you "I have nothing to hide" people have any "restricted formats" on your system...

What's on your computer that the NSA would be interested in?

Seriously, give it a thought. Are you planning to blow up a monument? Kill a few innocent students? Hire a hitman for your wife?

No? Then what's the problem?

Privacy to such a degree is over-rated.
I have to post this response. It says it so much better than I can.

"Yeah! Hunters don't kill the *innocent* animals - they look for the shifty-eyed ones that are probably the criminal element of their species!"

"If the're not guilty, why are they running?"

I wrote about this a while ago. Here's the text:

"If you haven't done anything wrong, what do you have to hide?"

Ever heard that one? I work in information security, so I have heard it more than my fair share. I've always hated that reasoning, because I am a little bit paranoid by nature, something which serves me very well in my profession. So my standard response to people who have asked that question near me has been "because I'm paranoid." But that doesn't usually help, since most people who would ask that question see paranoia as a bad thing to begin with. So for a long time I've been trying to come up with a valid, reasoned, and intelligent answer which shoots the holes in the flawed logic that need to be there.

And someone unknowingly provided me with just that answer today. In a conversation about hunting, somebody posted this about prey animals and hunters:
"Yeah! Hunters don't kill the *innocent* animals - they look for the shifty-eyed ones that are probably the criminal element of their species!"
but in a brilliant (and very funny) retort, someone else said:
"If the're not guilty, why are they running?"

Suddenly it made sense, that nagging thing in the back of my head. The logical reason why a reasonable dose of paranoia is healthy. Because it's one thing to be afraid of the TRUTH. People who commit murder or otherwise deprive others of their Natural Rights are afraid of the TRUTH, because it is the light of TRUTH that will help bring them to justice.

But it's another thing entirely to be afraid of hunters. And all too often, the hunters are the ones proclaiming to be looking for TRUTH. But they are more concerned with removing any obstactles to finding the TRUTH, even when that means bulldozing over people's rights (the right to privacy, the right to anonymity) in their quest for it. And sadly, these people often cannot tell the difference between the appearance of TRUTH and TRUTH itself. And these, the ones who are so convinced they have found the TRUTH that they stop looking for it, are some of the worst oppressors of Natural Rights the world has ever known.

They are the hunters, and it is right and good for the prey to be afraid of the hunters, and to run away from them. Do not be fooled when a hunter says "why are you running from me if you have nothing to hide?" Because having something to hide is not the only reason to be hiding something.

FuturePilot
January 22nd, 2007, 02:12 AM
Funny how a lot of government agencies use Linux....
Why do I have a feeling that this won't help a lot. There's already been a few security vulnerabilities discovered in Vista.

mysticrider92
January 22nd, 2007, 10:12 PM
First of all, I don't have any plans to hurt anyone or something, but if I did, why would I put them on my computer? I thought the NSA was an agency who actually cared about security, not violating rights. I know that the police can search my house, car, or whatever else, but I know they can't do it without a very good reason, so why can other people do it?

Just my thoughts.

mips
January 22nd, 2007, 11:33 PM
:rolleyes: This is really getting tiring, people just don't get it.

Tell you what, uninstall every single OS you have. Put the computer in a cardboard box and go place it in the garage/attic or whatever you prefer.

waldorf
March 10th, 2007, 08:38 PM
I don't actually think its a matter of paranoia or whether you really have anything to hide. As Glenn Greenwald said today (http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/03/10/doj/index.html):

"Our whole system of government, from the very beginning, has been predicated centrally on one fairly simple, clear, and easy-to-digest concept: we do not trust government leaders to exercise power in secret and without external oversight. That is because history shows that political leaders who exercise power in that unchecked and unaccountable manner are likely to abuse it."

Its healthy to be skeptical and err on the side of caution.

Trebuchet
March 10th, 2007, 11:48 PM
Man, they must be pretty bored. Except for hanging out with a bunch of subversives on a Linux board, I don't really do... Never mind. Disregard that.

:D

scrooge_74
November 9th, 2007, 03:24 PM
I was going to start a new thread, but since I found this one, and the title fits....

I wonder what is people's opinon on this articles about the NSA and AT&T. Besides been illegal, do you think having so much data is useful? I friend told me the other day that by using Google mail he was safe since it would be trought oscurity (so much traffic, no body would find things)

http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Countdown_Telcom_whistleblower_describes_secret_ro om_1107.html

houstonbofh
November 9th, 2007, 10:47 PM
I think Google is the best company in the world at data mining vast sums of data. Frankly, I don't trust them. Host your own mail.

scrooge_74
November 10th, 2007, 05:22 PM
Sure but you need to have your own server working 24/7 to do that.

Besides having to manage that I need a dedicated computer (which I dont have at this point), my electric bill will go through the roof and I worry spamers will dumptruck loads of stuff

RTSnLV
November 11th, 2007, 11:41 AM
Internet traffic regardless of platform is monitored. M$ just made it alittle easier for big brother to watch us

Musky Melon
November 12th, 2007, 07:41 AM
So then you would support random police searches of your home for no reason, just because you are doing nothing illegal???

Sad that people are willing to give up privacy for no reason. What a great way to ruin the world for future generations. You will eventually realize what you have given away, but by then it will be too late.

Although I agree in concept the reality of the situation is they don't have the man-power to sit there and search through random people's stuff. They're occupied with real-threats. Privacy ultimately comes down to man-power and interest as they have the tools and resources to invade your privacy whenever they want, the only thing stopping them is their lack of interest.

scrooge_74
November 12th, 2007, 04:54 PM
About the man power thing, they probably have the resources or the capacity to have it there. And probably some computer program helps them sift through things first

inversekinetix
November 13th, 2007, 02:02 AM
i remember reading somewhere that the nsa or cia or fbi, one of those organisations had for ced US telcos to add their software to data switching centres, so they could tap any communications line at will. Thats so cool!

I think were all safe for a little while longer, theyll go after the big problems first, then when theyre dealt with theyll be after everyone else. Itll be like 1984 meets Gladiator.

True freedom is an ideal that can never be attained, the best we can ever hope for is a subjective freedom.

NeoLithium
November 13th, 2007, 02:20 AM
It was probably all 3 of the agencies in conjunction with working on Project Echelon. In that respect though, the NSA is one up on the FBI and CIA. They don't have to investigate dozens of other crimes like the FBI, or continue clandestine operations against drug cartels- the NSA seems to mostly get to have a ridiculous budget to over-pay hackers for what they normally would go to prison for.

Hmmmm, WTF am I complaining about, I think that would be a nice dream job. LOL. I can see what Saddam's niece had in her email in the morning and in the afternoon watch what my mother bought for me for Christmas on her credit card...

igknighted
November 13th, 2007, 06:53 AM
All you people worried about the NSA's involvement in linux are crazy. It is open source! No distro will include any nsa code without reviewing it, so people that have nothing to do with the NSA are looking at it before it gets to you to make sure it is ok. In this sense, it can only be good to have one of the top security organizations in the world assist in securing linux.

Because they have done great work helping linux, I tend to trust their help in Windows. I think they are (a) more trustworthy than Microsoft, and (b) more competent when it comes to securing my computer. So I'm not super concerned about it.

houstonbofh
November 13th, 2007, 03:33 PM
II think they are (a) more trustworthy than Microsoft, and (b) more competent when it comes to securing my computer.
I think that says it all right there. You are trusting someone who does not have you best interest at heart. But we have caught Microsoft doing more crooked stuff then Microsoft. So either they do it less, or they are better at it! :)

tyggna1
November 13th, 2007, 04:19 PM
Besides, the "security" features of Vista just copy Linux--for the most part. They have a session 0-- which is only accessible by pressing "continue," It is fundamentally the same as the root user idea, and how we can only access it with sudo and a password. Everything else runs in session 1--which is the equivalent of an Ubuntu admin.

The other "security" options in it are more political than anything--like their browser rating programs and their parental controls. As for the "send reports" features, you can look through those reports yourself to see what they include--hint: it includes the names of all the running processes on your computer, and what memory addresses they were accessing, as well as which drivers were involved with it running.

I don't use windows any more--but I don't mind giving a list of the running processes on my computer so a team of debuggers can collect statistical data to make an OS more stable.

Also--look at the practical side of it: Hundereds of thousands of computers report crashes every day. Microsoft development teams can, at most, number 400 people. If they're trying to prove that you're building a bomb, or running a specific game, then they have to have a trained programming professional spend hours upon hours of sorting through data, tracking down you IP address and matching it with a location. I guess that wouldn't be too hard with perl and regular expressions, but it makes more sense to use that data to plot it on a graph and look at what causes the most crashes.

Privacy/security vs functionality -- rarely can both win, it's just a matter of which side you take. I, for one, prefer to be a liason :D

Musky Melon
November 14th, 2007, 07:15 AM
It's funny that people trust random employees with their personal information and are okay with them logging it.

Anyway, how monitoring computer data usually works is that questionable data is flagged then it is marked for review. All other data is essentially anonymous as nobody actually looks at it. The other method is if you do something to warrant dedicated monitoring. Either way requires an action on your part.

sloggerkhan
November 14th, 2007, 07:23 AM
Does anybody else think it might not be ethical for MS to get tangible commercial improvement and benefit from the freely given participation of a government entity in their development and testing process? That's my main thought, that it seems like a blatant relationship between government and industry that shouldn't exist...

Musky Melon
November 14th, 2007, 12:42 PM
Does anybody else think it might not be ethical for MS to get tangible commercial improvement and benefit from the freely given participation of a government entity in their development and testing process? That's my main thought, that it seems like a blatant relationship between government and industry that shouldn't exist...

Given that the government is one of Microsoft' largest customers you know they'd have some concerns about their OS. Have you ever considered that Microsoft develops special versions of Windows solely for certain government agencies?

sajro
November 14th, 2007, 11:50 PM
Nice try M$!

The NSA wouldn't work on Windows because they won't even use it. The NSA uses Linux. In fact, their super-secure system for Linux is S[ecurity]E[nhanced]Linux, available for us as checkpolicy.

xirtus
January 17th, 2009, 02:50 PM
INCORRECT!

THE OPEN GROUP IS FUNDED along side some corps like NOVELL and SONY by the DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE and NASA, unix has always been goverment sponsored, and I always thought Linus was fishy, just jumping out with that kernel like that... Lets switch back to HURD!

Giant Speck
January 17th, 2009, 03:00 PM
Everyone run!

It's a zombie thread!