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dbbolton
January 6th, 2007, 11:30 PM
not really looking for explanations, justifications, or really anything of the sort. just data.

please, no rants. i chose not to post this in the backyard for a reason.

Biggus
January 6th, 2007, 11:32 PM
No. We are the most evil though.

bastiegast
January 6th, 2007, 11:38 PM
I didn't vote.

If we were not we probably wouldn't know. In that spirit I don't feel like I can say much useful about it.

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 12:40 AM
interesting point.

viciouslime
January 7th, 2007, 12:41 AM
Is this on Earth, or in the universe... :-k

smoker
January 7th, 2007, 12:42 AM
we're in third place, the dolphins are second, and small furry white things found in laboratories secretly doing experiments on man, are the first.

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 12:52 AM
Is this on Earth, or in the universe... :-k
i meant "...per biology" so i guess on earth :)

raul_
January 7th, 2007, 12:55 AM
When there's an ubuntu distro created from scratch by dolphins i'm getting it!! :D

RAV TUX
January 7th, 2007, 12:58 AM
no

raul_
January 7th, 2007, 01:12 AM
Besides humans, which animals are the most intelligent?

According to Edward O. Wilson, a behavioral biologist (scientist who studies the behavior of animals), the ten most intelligent animals are the following:

1. Chimpanzee (two species)
2. Gorilla
3. Orangutan
4. Baboon (seven species, including drill and mandrill)
5. Gibbon (seven species)
6. Monkey (many species, especially the macaques, the patas, and the Celebes black ape)
7. Smaller-toothed whale (several species, especially killer whale)
8. Dolphin (many of the approximately eighty species)
9. Elephant (two species)
10. Pig

Source: Wallace, Irving. The Book of Lists #2, p. 104.

I can't see what's the doubt here :-k but ok, everybody has the right to it's own opinion

RAV TUX
January 7th, 2007, 01:16 AM
Beluga Whales

Bononbos

Cats

Bunnies

Sef
January 7th, 2007, 01:18 AM
How do you define intelligent?

raul_
January 7th, 2007, 01:19 AM
Beluga Whales

Bononbos

Cats

Bunnies

Just to clarify...you think all of those are smarter than humans..right?

riven0
January 7th, 2007, 01:23 AM
I've heard that birds are more intelligent than chimpanzee's. Read about them here (http://www.pbs.org/lifeofbirds/brain/)...

pmj
January 7th, 2007, 01:41 AM
While I don't doubt that some animals can out-smart us in specific cases, just like a dog can out-smell us and a cheetah can out-run us, I don't see how it's possible that any other animal has an even remotely comparable complete package, nor the amazing ability to learn and adapt to new situations that our human minds have.

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 01:44 AM
How do you define intelligent?
i can't. i just want to know how people will respond off the top of their heads, ie not really thinking about it

RAV TUX
January 7th, 2007, 01:46 AM
Just to clarify...you think all of those are smarter than humans..right?

Beluga Whales I do....I think it could be possible that our next form of existence could be as a Beluga Whale....so I would say they are transcendent.

intelligence may not be the right word, I do believe their souls resonate at a higher levels then ours...

intelligence is simply a human construct limited by our understanding...thus any measure would be irrelavent at the very best.

BuffaloX
January 7th, 2007, 02:19 AM
we're in third place, the dolphins are second, and small furry white things found in laboratories secretly doing experiments on man, are the first.

42

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 03:56 AM
Beluga Whales I do....I think it could be possible that our next form of existence could be as a Beluga Whale....so I would say they are transcendent.

intelligence may not be the right word, I do believe their souls resonate at a higher levels then ours...

intelligence is simply a human construct limited by our understanding...thus any measure would be irrelavent at the very best.
so, you mean that they are higher up on the great chain of being, so to speak

WalmartSniperLX
January 7th, 2007, 09:43 AM
:P I always considered intelligence to be a point of view, and it cannot be measured or compared without noticing many variables which include (but not limited by) learning ability, brain capacity, social structure, physical anatomy, etc. But I voted yes because its completely obvious we are the smartest animals on earth;) :cool:

bastiegast
January 7th, 2007, 11:47 AM
I can't see what's the doubt here :-k but ok, everybody has the right to it's own opinion

To quote two people including myself :mrgreen:

intelligence is simply a human construct limited by our understanding...thus any measure would be irrelavent at the very best.
In respond to are humans the most intelligent animals:

If we were not we probably wouldn't know.

I think cats, dogs monkeys or dolphins do not know we are more intelligent as they are. They can't understand that because our way of thinking is from another level. So if the previous is true we might very well not understand if other species are more intelligent then we are. To clarify, there are lots of things animals do we don't understand or we might think we understand it.

RAV TUX
January 7th, 2007, 01:28 PM
so, you mean that they are higher up on the great chain of being, so to speak

yes in a universal, mystical, spiritual perspective.

RAV TUX
January 7th, 2007, 01:38 PM
so, you mean that they are higher up on the great chain of being, so to speak

Take a look for yourself:

Beluga Cam!
http://www.vanaqua.org/belugacam/



Catch a peek into the Arctic Canada habitat at the Vancouver Aquarium !



If the screen is dark and you can't see the belugas, that's because it's night time here and there is no light. Check back during Vancouver daylight hours!
Thanks for visiting!
so you can see when it is daylight to see the Beluga Whales:http://www.vanaqua.org/belugacam/trans.gif (http://www.vanaqua.org/belugacam/index2.html)
Click the link below to see the current daylight hours
http://www.fourmilab.ch/cgi-bin/uncgi/Earth/action?opt=-p

The Joe
January 7th, 2007, 02:02 PM
Of course not! We invented Microsoft!

Personally I beleive Whales are the most intelligent ^^

eriqk
January 7th, 2007, 02:06 PM
we're in third place, the dolphins are second, and small furry white things found in laboratories secretly doing experiments on man, are the first.

Are you pondering what I'm pondering?

Groet, Erik

tkjacobsen
January 7th, 2007, 02:22 PM
mice is the most intelligent creatures,

then comes dolphins

and then humans


everybody knows that

SuperKingKongMegaNewbie
January 7th, 2007, 02:33 PM
Am I human? ;)

JaspSoft
January 7th, 2007, 02:34 PM
I'd be amazed if anyone could come up with sound reasons for us NOT being the most intelligent animals on the planet. :confused:

ragadanga63
January 7th, 2007, 02:35 PM
I didn't know that. I'm not that intelligent you know. Hehe.

Biggus
January 7th, 2007, 03:12 PM
I'd be amazed if anyone could come up with sound reasons for us NOT being the most intelligent animals on the planet.

1) No other species is intent on destroying the planet they live on
2) No other species feels the need to exploit other members of their own species
3) No other species has ever elected George W Bush as a leader
4) No other species is so aware that they they have such a terribly short time on the face of this wonderful planet, and yet spend all of their time making life more complicated for themselves.
5) No other species has ever invented weapons which could destroy all life on Earth, homo-sapiens included

fuscia
January 7th, 2007, 03:20 PM
ants, if we're talking p4p.

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 03:25 PM
We are the most intelligent. However, some of us don't know how to use that intelligence.

EdThaSlayer
January 7th, 2007, 03:28 PM
We have created the most things and rule this planet. So I guess we are the smartest :-D . I haven't seen a pig(or any other animal in fact) use a computer or even able to understand basic physics.

bastiegast
January 7th, 2007, 03:37 PM
What if our pets secretly control us? Pets have usually much less to worry about than us ;)

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 03:41 PM
Besides humans, which animals are the most intelligent?

According to Edward O. Wilson, a behavioral biologist (scientist who studies the behavior of animals), the ten most intelligent animals are the following:

1. Chimpanzee (two species)
2. Gorilla
3. Orangutan
4. Baboon (seven species, including drill and mandrill)
5. Gibbon (seven species)
6. Monkey (many species, especially the macaques, the patas, and the Celebes black ape)
7. Smaller-toothed whale (several species, especially killer whale)
8. Dolphin (many of the approximately eighty species)
9. Elephant (two species)
10. Pig

Source: Wallace, Irving. The Book of Lists #2, p. 104. I can't see what's the doubt here :-k but ok, everybody has the right to it's own opinion
that guy has got it all wrong. the 2nd most intelligent animal on earth is the killer whale (in some scientific circles, there is some evidence that killer whales may well be more intelligent than humans). also, dolphins are above chimpanzees and all other non-human primates.

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 03:51 PM
that guy has got it all wrong. the 2nd most intelligent animal on earth is the killer whale (in some scientific circles, there is some evidence that killer whales may well be more intelligent than humans). also, dolphins are above chimpanzees and all other non-human primates.

Erm...give me the evidence please...especially that they are more intelligent than us.

fuscia
January 7th, 2007, 04:05 PM
Erm...give me the evidence please...especially that they are more intelligent than us.

dolphins, historically, do much better in standardized testing than chimps, although, it is thought, in some circles, that chimps are reluctant to make a good effort on these tests.

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 04:31 PM
Erm...give me the evidence please
evidence of what?




..especially that they are more intelligent than us.i've only heard that once or twice. its never been a mainstream theory, but its worth considering nevertheless...especially has the killer whale has a higher brain mass to body mass ratio than humans


one thing is for sure. chimps are definitely not the 2nd most intelligent animal.
btw killer whales are dolphins

JurB
January 7th, 2007, 04:32 PM
We have created the most things and rule this planet. So I guess we are the smartest :-D . I haven't seen a pig(or any other animal in fact) use a computer or even able to understand basic physics.

The reason we can do all of those things is the fact that the way our body is made alows us to use complicated language to exchange knowledge(speech, low larynx) and preserve it for future generations (more accurate fine motor skills, opposable thumb). If other animals were able to fysically do that, we would be living in a totally different world. We got lucky that's all.

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 04:35 PM
The reason we can do all of those things is the fact that the way our body is made alows us to use complicated language to exchange knowledge(speech, low larynx) and preserve it for future generations (more accurate fine motor skills, opposable thumb). If other animals were able to fysically do that, we would be living in a totally different world. We got lucky that's all.

You are also forgetting that our brains also got larger as a result of using tools . If that hadn't happened, then we'd still be in the jungle.

JurB
January 7th, 2007, 04:44 PM
You are also forgetting that our brains also got larger as a result of using tools . If that hadn't happened, then we'd still be in the jungle.

Social structures and speech were far more defining for our brain capacity than tools.
That said, i do think humans have the best overall "package", but i doubt we are the most "intelligent" if one defines it as pure brain power.

Mateo
January 7th, 2007, 05:25 PM
Squid are really intelligent. As are some types of jellyfish.

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 05:34 PM
As are some types of jellyfish.
the tentacles part of a portuguese man o war(even though its not a jellyfish) is the most intelligent

Tomosaur
January 7th, 2007, 06:07 PM
I voted yes. Human nature is ignorant, but the ability to counter your nature proves that humans are the most intelligent animals. You really see other animals acting on anything other than instinct. Those that do are still confined to their basic primal nature, and there is no observable evidence that they act on anything other than their current climate. Humans are able to act with some aim other than satisfying their own basic necessities. Some choose to call it spirituality.

rbhigday
January 7th, 2007, 07:34 PM
No, were second

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 07:50 PM
Social structures and speech were far more defining for our brain capacity than tools.
That said, i do think humans have the best overall "package", but i doubt we are the most "intelligent" if one defines it as pure brain power.

Who would have the most brain power then?

JurB
January 7th, 2007, 08:09 PM
Who would have the most brain power then?

That question can only be answered by scientists after thorough research, but i think elephants, dolphins and mice are suitable candidates.

raul_
January 7th, 2007, 08:11 PM
That question can only be answered by scientists after torough research, but i think elephants, dolphins and mice are suitable candidates.

i don't buy it. quite honestly, without throwing flames at anybody, i think it's a pretty ridiculous statement :rolleyes:

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 08:18 PM
Who would have the most brain power then?
whilst it is quite likely that humans are the most 'intelligent', it is not absolutely certain.
humans don't even know exactly what constitutes intelligence in humans, never mind other animals. besides, humans tend to judge the intelligence of other animals in terms of our ourself and our own standards.

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 08:44 PM
i've seen many interesting responses- especially mateo's :D

but i'm surprised that no one has proposed a conjecture that states an animal's intelligence is adapted to its unique circumstances and not really comparable to that of other animals who live in other circumstances.

for instance, i've wondered if a dolphin brain has the motor skills to operate eight appendages simultaneously in spinning a spider's web, or whether any animal can recall stored information to the degree that humans can.

Ocxic
January 7th, 2007, 08:45 PM
ya we're intellegent, we build homes, cars, planes, and other amazing things....
however, we will rebuild that house every year after a tornado hits it, instead of moving.
ya we're real smart.

Pobega
January 7th, 2007, 09:09 PM
On the face of the Earth? Of course we are, out of all of the animals we are the only ones to create a functional community based on economics and non-primal instincts (Like killing/power, but instead your strength is based more on your mental power).

That isn't to say that other creatures aren't smart, for example communities of ants are fairly smart as well as dolphins.

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 09:13 PM
ya we're intellegent, we build homes, cars, planes, and other amazing things....
however, we will rebuild that house every year after a tornado hits it, instead of moving.
ya we're real smart.

Well, as a species, there will always be some not so intelligent, ok, ok, idiotic members...

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 09:23 PM
but i'm surprised that no one has proposed a conjecture that states an animal's intelligence is adapted to its unique circumstances and not really comparable to that of other animals who live in other circumstances.

you didn't read my post.
in the past, i've heard really ridiculous claims from people claiming that dolphins and other sea creatures can't be that smart because they haven't built underwater cities and vehicles etc. thats because, due to their physique, society, and environment, they have no need for them and it doesn't benefit their survival.

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 09:26 PM
you didn't read my post.
in the past, i've heard really ridiculous claims from people claiming that dolphins and other sea creatures can't be that smart because they haven't built underwater cities and vehicles etc. thats because, due to their physique, society, and environment, they have no need for them and it doesn't benefit their survival.
i read it.

CheshireMac
January 7th, 2007, 09:44 PM
I'm voting no, and I'm not going to rant . . .but my vote either goes to the domesticated house cat (Who has the better life?), or the common cockroach (Them, and Keith Richards will survive nuclear fallout). We just happen to be able to speak . . .that's not a sign of intelligence in my books.

CheshireMac
January 7th, 2007, 09:47 PM
On the face of the Earth? Of course we are, out of all of the animals we are the only ones to create a functional community based on economics and non-primal instincts (Like killing/power, but instead your strength is based more on your mental power).

That isn't to say that other creatures aren't smart, for example communities of ants are fairly smart as well as dolphins.
Our 'mental power' has caused more destruction than any other species on this Earth. We're the only species that hasn't found equilibrium. Us and Viral organisms, that is . . .I agree with Agent Smith. ~LOL~

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 09:49 PM
you didn't read my post.
in the past, i've heard really ridiculous claims from people claiming that dolphins and other sea creatures can't be that smart because they haven't built underwater cities and vehicles etc. thats because, due to their physique, society, and environment, they have no need for them and it doesn't benefit their survival.

So we should have remained as chimpanzees in the jungle?

raul_
January 7th, 2007, 09:50 PM
Our 'mental power' has caused more destruction than any other species on this Earth. We're the only species that hasn't found equilibrium. Us and Viral organisms, that is . . .I agree with Agent Smith. ~LOL~

False

KiwiNZ
January 7th, 2007, 09:55 PM
No Humans are not even close or in the race to be the most intelligent Animal .

Humans are Mammals :p

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 10:44 PM
No Humans are not even close or in the race to be the most intelligent Animal .

Humans are Mammals :p
taxonomy of humans:

Eukaryota
Animalia
Chordata
Mammalia
Primates
Hominidae
Homo
H. sapiens

humans are both animals and mammals.

WalmartSniperLX
January 7th, 2007, 10:52 PM
Funny though, we're now brainsotorming and debating what animal has the most brainbower, but cmon :D you think other animals even have the brain power to even think of a question like this, then have the smart idea to survey it? I think not ;) Each animal lives to do its job in the world before it dies. Humans, as it seems, dont really have a single good job to do because we have the intelligence to make a choice. Sometimes destroying the world is what we do best, but thats just ignorance. I mean, we arent perfect, so we do stupid tings. And as you know we humans dont use our brain to its fullest. What if we did? ;) Most animals are maxing their brains as we know (dogs do, or at least at a higher level than humans, its evident in their powerful sense of smell and hearing). I don't know, just a thought. But, with our 15% brain use, I still think we're the smartest :P

KiwiNZ
January 7th, 2007, 11:28 PM
taxonomy of humans:

Eukaryota
Animalia
Chordata
Mammalia
Primates
Hominidae
Homo
H. sapiens

humans are both animals and mammals.

good lord they really did mix all the recipes together when they made made, maybe we were the left overs of all the mixtures :p

ComplexNumber
January 7th, 2007, 11:39 PM
right, so now i know that i'm a Eukaryota :shock:

dbbolton
January 7th, 2007, 11:59 PM
it means true kernel, actually. (kernel referring to nuclear envelope)

Frak
January 8th, 2007, 12:13 AM
We are so smart we are stupid

Knowledge is a dangerous thing, (we're) learning the hard way

Quote from one of the members.

bastiegast
January 8th, 2007, 12:51 AM
Im going to say the same thing as in my previous posts. But this time I'll explicitly ask since no one reacted. EDIT: And of course im curious about your opinions

I agree that as far as we can tell, human are the most intelligent if it comes to using tools and building structures. But as I said before, a dolphin doesn't know we're more intelligent. This can have two reasons: he's to dumb to think of it, or he might not be able to understand just because we are more intelligent. In that case the dolphin can't tell because our thinking goes beyond the dolphin's intelligence.

What if the same applies to us? Maybe there is some "animal" we might not even know about that thinks on another - higher - level, being more intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you influence your environment more. If that's the case then how can we tell were the most intelligent?

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 01:14 AM
it means true kernel, actually. (kernel referring to nuclear envelope)
in that case, i'm a Chordata. oh no! don't tell me.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 02:23 AM
Maybe there is some "animal" we might not even know about that thinks on another - higher - level, being more intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you influence your environment more. If that's the case then how can we tell were the most intelligent?

my original question was from a biological standpoint. if such an animal exists but is unknown to zoology, then its intelligence is irrelevant.

you can't say that an apple is the best fruit unless you've eaten all fruits- by definition of a superlative adjective in standard english. but how do you know when you've eaten all fruits? does it really matter to you, as an apple eater?

to be honest, i see no honour in such philosophical tangents. it's just a simple yes-or-no question, not meant to drag in all this deep thought.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 02:35 AM
maybe this will clear things up a bit.

ethological/comparative psychological approach:

1. Attention: Can any animal distribute attention between different aspects of a stimulus better than humans ?
2. Categorisation: Can any animal discriminate between categories of stimuli better than humans?
3. Memory: Can any animal exceed the human capacity in short-term, working, or long term memory ?
4. Tool use: Can any animal employ the use of tools better than humans ?
5. Problem solving: Can any animal outperform humans in solving problems, including the use of reasoning and abstract reasoning ?
6. Language: Can any animal communicate to the degree that humans do ?
7. Conciousness: Can any animal be more aware of the self than humans ?
8. Emotion: Can any animal exhibit emotional capacity to the degree that humans do ?



Biological questions:

1. Does any animal have superior neural networking to that of humans ?
2. Is any animal higher on the evolutionary timescale than humans ?
3. Is any animal capable of undergoing succession in a human habitat (i.e. overtaking the human habitat)

qalimas
January 8th, 2007, 02:39 AM
Funny though, we're now brainsotorming and debating what animal has the most brainbower, but cmon :D you think other animals even have the brain power to even think of a question like this, then have the smart idea to survey it? I think not ;) Each animal lives to do its job in the world before it dies. Humans, as it seems, dont really have a single good job to do because we have the intelligence to make a choice. Sometimes destroying the world is what we do best, but thats just ignorance. I mean, we arent perfect, so we do stupid tings. And as you know we humans dont use our brain to its fullest. What if we did? ;) Most animals are maxing their brains as we know (dogs do, or at least at a higher level than humans, its evident in their powerful sense of smell and hearing). I don't know, just a thought. But, with our 15% brain use, I still think we're the smartest :P


http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/tenper.html

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 02:41 AM
maybe this will clear things up a bit.

1. Attention: Can any animal distribute attention between different aspects of a stimulus better than humans ?

2. Categorisation: Can any animal discriminate between categories of stimuli better than humans ?

3. Memory: Can any animal exceed the human capacity in short-term, working, or long term memory ?

4. Tool use: Can any animal employ the use of tools better than humans ?

5. Problem solving: Can any animal outperform humans in solving problems, including the use of reasoning and abstract reasoning ?

6. Language: Can any animal communicate to the degree that humans do ?

7. Conciousness: Can any animal be more aware of the self than humans ?

8. Emotion: Can any animal exhibit emotional capacity to the degree that humans do ?
not really. how would each of them be tested? the problem is that we can only really test things in terms of ourselves and how we understand the world.

Frak
January 8th, 2007, 02:42 AM
By your definition, Monkeys and Chimpanzees are smarter than we are.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 03:23 AM
it's not "my" definition. but care to elaborate ?

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 04:20 AM
it's not "my" definition. but care to elaborate ?
i think he means that most of your criteria test out sensory perception and manual dexterity rather than an animals intelligence(whatever that is). for all the points apart from 5 and 7, there is an animal that surpasses humans, sometimes greatly. point 5 is difficult to test because the chances are that an animal will have its inteligence tested in terms of what we know and believe about intelligence. point 7 is impossible to define, and hence test.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 04:26 AM
i meant that i got that from wikipedia 'animal cognition', and i wanted him to elaborate on why chimpanzees are smarter.

sure, there are animals that may beat us in one or two categories, but is there any that unquestionably surpasses us in all points ?

Frak
January 8th, 2007, 04:31 AM
Simple, they pose, from what I've concluded, all of those points.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 04:41 AM
well, that's given. but can you say "they are superior in this ability because they can ___"

i'm curious

Dale61
January 8th, 2007, 04:52 AM
A species that kills members of it's own species for fun isn't really all that intelligent now, is it?

We're also that intelligent that we kill other species and call it sport!

~LoKe
January 8th, 2007, 04:56 AM
Animals act on instinct, and most humans act on thought (generally speaking).

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 05:03 AM
A species that kills members of it's own species for fun isn't really all that intelligent now, is it?

We're also that intelligent that we kill other species and call it sport!
killer whales and dolphins do too. in fact, there have been recorded instances of males of the species gang raping a female. even a domestic cat will kill an animal, not because its hungry and needs to eat, but for fun and practice.
its not just humans.

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 06:04 AM
what does killing have to do with intelligence?

can you honestly say that hannibal wasn't intelligent?

sloggerkhan
January 8th, 2007, 06:21 AM
I think the question should be "Are humans the most intelligent animals known to man?" :D

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 06:27 AM
my original question was from a biological standpoint. if such an animal exists but is unknown to zoology, then its intelligence is irrelevant.

you can't say that an apple is the best fruit unless you've eaten all fruits- by definition of a superlative adjective in standard english. but how do you know when you've eaten all fruits? does it really matter to you, as an apple eater?

to be honest, i see no honour in such philosophical tangents. it's just a simple yes-or-no question, not meant to drag in all this deep thought.

i initially assumed that it was implied...

i failed to consider the cynicism and philosophical whimsy of ubuntu users

sloggerkhan
January 8th, 2007, 06:48 AM
I am also surprised that no one has said Penguin (come on... TUX anyone?).

spockrock
January 8th, 2007, 10:19 AM
I said no cause we are the only species I know that willingly does things that are harmful to ourselves, like smoking, or better yet destroying the environment.....

dbbolton
January 8th, 2007, 10:56 AM
what animal can make cigrettes or chemicals to deplete the ozone etc. ?


ah, i'm just playing the Devil's advocate.

bastiegast
January 8th, 2007, 01:29 PM
my original question was from a biological standpoint. if such an animal exists but is unknown to zoology, then its intelligence is irrelevant.

you can't say that an apple is the best fruit unless you've eaten all fruits- by definition of a superlative adjective in standard english. but how do you know when you've eaten all fruits? does it really matter to you, as an apple eater?

to be honest, i see no honour in such philosophical tangents. it's just a simple yes-or-no question, not meant to drag in all this deep thought.

Some things i said were a bit philosophical. I am not saying the intelligent beast has to be something mysterious we don't know. It might just not be complete BS those whales or whatever are more intelligent than us. We might not be able to understand though, just like your dog won't ever understand why you are more intelligent.

hoagie
January 8th, 2007, 01:47 PM
I believe that we are the most intelligent animals even though we did many stupidities in the past.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 02:37 PM
Some things i said were a bit philosophical. I am not saying the intelligent beast has to be something mysterious we don't know. It might just not be complete BS those whales or whatever are more intelligent than us. We might not be able to understand though, just like your dog won't ever understand why you are more intelligent.

Who said he can't?

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 03:07 PM
Who said he can't?
i think thats oe of the main problems. we don't even understand exactly what intelligence is. so if we can't accurately define or evaluate the intelligence of a human, what chance do we have have of evaluating the intelligence of a non-human?
its only ever gong to be a very approximate guess.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 03:30 PM
You can tell that Einstein was more intelligent than any of us, so why can't we evaluate another animal's intelligence as well?
And don't give me that "Oh but he was human as well" because that has nothing to do with it. Once he goes beyond what any of us understands, and we can understand that he is way smarter than we are, then i think that we can do that with other species as well (not to mention that when you see UFO's in the movies, you automatically think that they're smarter than us, otherwise they couldn't have come this far)

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 03:36 PM
You can tell that Einstein was more intelligent than any of us
it wasn't always apparent. read this:

Also, his parents worried about his intellectual development as a child due to his hesitance to speak up to the age of nine, though he was one of the top students in his elementary school.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

what if people measured intellect by how early a persons speaks? like i was saying, it depends upon the criteria. so if we don't always know the criteria for humans, we have no chance of knowing the criteria for non-humans.

megamania
January 8th, 2007, 04:28 PM
maybe this will clear things up a bit.

ethological/comparative psychological approach:

1. Attention: Can any animal distribute attention between different aspects of a stimulus better than humans ?
2. Categorisation: Can any animal discriminate between categories of stimuli better than humans?
3. Memory: Can any animal exceed the human capacity in short-term, working, or long term memory ?
4. Tool use: Can any animal employ the use of tools better than humans ?
5. Problem solving: Can any animal outperform humans in solving problems, including the use of reasoning and abstract reasoning ?
6. Language: Can any animal communicate to the degree that humans do ?
7. Conciousness: Can any animal be more aware of the self than humans ?
8. Emotion: Can any animal exhibit emotional capacity to the degree that humans do ?

Biological questions:

1. Does any animal have superior neural networking to that of humans ?
2. Is any animal higher on the evolutionary timescale than humans ?
3. Is any animal capable of undergoing succession in a human habitat (i.e. overtaking the human habitat)


not really. how would each of them be tested? the problem is that we can only really test things in terms of ourselves and how we understand the world.
Exactly. That's the base of racism in its deepest sense: you are not able to do the things I do, so you have to be stupid.

Every time I read those things, I think of Milan Kundera's The Unbearable Lightness of Being ("The Genesis says that Man has the right to rule over the animals. But of course the Genesis was written by a man, not by a horse" - quoting by heart)...


EDIT: not going to vote because of a strong conflict of interest. It would be immoral to vote for myself ;-)

tito2502
January 8th, 2007, 04:33 PM
Of course we are.

No other animal on Earth poses a serious threat to our existence.

luvinit
January 8th, 2007, 08:27 PM
You would think that if humans were even remotely intelligent they could come with a solution where one sector of the planet i.e. UK isn't full of fat people while another is struggling to find something to eat. Not to mention squandering the earth's resources, committing mass murder, irradiating and polluting it.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 09:16 PM
it wasn't always apparent. read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

what if people measured intellect by how early a persons speaks? like i was saying, it depends upon the criteria. so if we don't always know the criteria for humans, we have no chance of knowing the criteria for non-humans.

It doesn't matter for how long it was apparent...that's not the point

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 09:25 PM
It doesn't matter for how long it was apparent...that's not the point
and what was the point?

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 09:33 PM
and what was the point?

That we are able to understand when someone is more intelligent than us. Anyway, i doubt that when he was 9 he was smarter than any of the physicists of the time :mrgreen:

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 09:45 PM
That we are able to understand when someone is more intelligent than us. Anyway, i doubt that when he was 9 he was smarter than any of the physicists of the time :mrgreen:
but i don't think we are, though. i don't think its always black and white. many people are late developers, lazy, or have some disability which can make them appear to be less intelligence than they are. if, for example, stephen hawkings didn't have qualifications and complex theories coming out of his ears, i doubt that anyone would guess that he was a 'genius' just by speaking to him (assuming that he didn't have his computer converting the movements in his voicebox into sounds). the only reason people know that he's intelligent is because he's proved himself by certain standards we believe to show intelligence.
also note that it takes intelligence to realise the intelligence in others. we may not have the intellect to realise the intelligence in some other animals because of the criteria by which we go by.

~LoKe
January 8th, 2007, 09:50 PM
I'm perfectly capable of realizing that someone who is autistic is much more intelligent than I am.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 10:02 PM
but i don't think we are, though. i don't think its always black and white. many people are late developers, lazy, or have some disability which can make them appear to be less intelligence than they are. if, for example, stephen hawkings didn't have qualifications and complex theories coming out of his ears, i doubt that anyone would guess that he was a 'genius' just by speaking to him (assuming that he didn't have his computer converting the ovements in his voicebox into sounds). the only reason people know that he's intelligent is because he's proved himself.
also note that it takes intelligence to realise the intelligence in others. we may not have the intellect to realise the intelligence in some other animals because of the criteria by which we go by.

Misjudging a couple of persons...maybe...entire species? I doubt it. I've seen cats and dogs slamming themselves in the wall, biting their own arses and trying to dig a hole under a fence instead of jumping.
Anyway, there a lot of dumb persons too..

Bottom line is, if someone proves to me that some animal is more intelligent than any human being, then i'll believe it, otherwise, i can't see a reason to doubt that humans are the most intelligent animals. Science evolution speaks for itself

happy-and-lost
January 8th, 2007, 10:05 PM
Rats have got to be smarter than us. They sit back and let us do all their work for them.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 10:11 PM
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&colID=1&articleID=000C1E5D-B9BA-1422-B9BA83414B7F0103

If anyone is interested.

Well in a funny sense i would say that rats are smarter than us, but then i can't see what's smart about letting ourself being injected with 50 different drugs everyday and hope you don't die, so that the work gets done...

cstudent
January 8th, 2007, 10:17 PM
This is a pretty biased poll. Let's go ask the other animals for their opinions and see which way the poll goes then. :-k

Mr Wrath
January 8th, 2007, 10:50 PM
1) No other species is intent on destroying the planet they live on
2) No other species feels the need to exploit other members of their own species
3) No other species has ever elected George W Bush as a leader
4) No other species is so aware that they they have such a terribly short time on the face of this wonderful planet, and yet spend all of their time making life more complicated for themselves.
5) No other species has ever invented weapons which could destroy all life on Earth, homo-sapiens included

In reference to Biggus...I would like to quote

Agent Smith: I'd like to share a revelation that Iíve had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species, and I realised that humans are not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment; but you humans do not. Instead you multiply, and multiply, until every resource is consumed. The only way for you to survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern... a virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer on this planet, you are a plague, and we... are the cure.

We are smarter...but, that doesn't mean we are wiser.

bastiegast
January 8th, 2007, 10:56 PM
I'm perfectly capable of realizing that someone who is autistic is much more intelligent than I am.

A person who can do 2534509 * 2352346 in five secs, a person who can speak 20+ languages, a person who came up with a great theorie, a genius musican, a historical painter, a person who didn't came up with a great theory but has an extremely high IQ.... Who's the smartest? Can we tell? It depends much on the way you define intelligent.

Note: Now I feel like im going slightly off topic, hell I post it anyway

ComplexNumber
January 8th, 2007, 11:01 PM
A person who can do 2534509 * 2352346 in five secs, a person who can speak 20+ languages, a person who came up with a great theorie, a genius musican, a historical painter, a person who didn't came up with a great theory but has an extremely high IQ.... Who's the smartest? Can we tell? It depends much on the way you define intelligent.

Note: Now I feel like im going slightly off topic, hell I post it anyway
not really going off-topic. quite the contrary. you're questioning what defines intelligence (something that hasn't been properly defined yet).
their are "idiot savants"(IQ below about 70) who, for example, can multiply 2 ninety digit numbers in their head in a few seconds. thats just computational power rather than reasoning, but its possible that that could have been seen at one time to be a sign of intelligence. there are idiot savants who have incredible ability in art, although their compositions tend to show little thought and are more about transferring exactly what is seen onto the canvas. etc.

raul_
January 8th, 2007, 11:43 PM
Talent isn't intelligence

I think the guy from Prison Break is intelligent :D

megamania
January 9th, 2007, 09:57 AM
Misjudging a couple of persons...maybe...entire species? I doubt it. I've seen cats and dogs slamming themselves in the wall, biting their own arses and trying to dig a hole under a fence instead of jumping.
Anyway, there a lot of dumb persons too..
I have seen men and women slamming themselves in the wall, and killing eachother for greed and pride.


Bottom line is, if someone proves to me that some animal is more intelligent than any human being, then i'll believe it, otherwise, i can't see a reason to doubt that humans are the most intelligent animals. Science evolution speaks for itself
If someone proves me that human beings are the most intelligent animals, then I'll believe it, otherwise I can't see a reason to doubt that some other animals are more intelligent.

See what "point of view" means? :-)

argie
January 9th, 2007, 10:21 AM
I'd like to believe we are. Never questioned it though.

This has probably been asked many times, but what is 'more intelligent' mean? Was Euler more intelligent than Pythagoras, Fermatz more than Bohr?

STREETURCHINE
January 9th, 2007, 10:22 AM
man we are not even smart enough to realize we are destroying the very thing that we require to exsist
it wont be long before we out eat ,out breath ,and over populate the world to the point it can no longer support us


ps and that is as long as we dont nuke ourselves first

steven8
January 9th, 2007, 10:36 AM
We can communicate with each other, but not other species, so we feel we are the smartest. We believe we are the smartest because we spend time worrying about it. I wonder if other animals, in a Whoopie Goldberg voice-over kind of way, spend their time wondering if THEY are the smartest species. I doubt it.

We decide the measure of intelligence, and can only discuss it amongst our own species. It's very similar to the winners writing history. It sounds conceited to say we are the most intelligent, and magnanimous to say we aren't. It's 6 of one - half a dozen of the other.

raul_
January 9th, 2007, 03:02 PM
I have seen men and women slamming themselves in the wall, and killing eachother for greed and pride.

As i Said, there are dumb (and i forgot to say mentally ill people) but i don't think that men killing each other is a sign of stupidity. I think it's a matter of priorities, not intelligence

teaker1s
January 9th, 2007, 03:10 PM
well yes by achievements and no as we are polluting and destroying our planet-plus some people have less intelligence than a common dog

megamania
January 9th, 2007, 03:45 PM
Misjudging a couple of persons...maybe...entire species? I doubt it. I've seen cats and dogs slamming themselves in the wall, biting their own arses and trying to dig a hole under a fence instead of jumping.
Anyway, there a lot of dumb persons too..



I have seen men and women slamming themselves in the wall, and killing eachother for greed and pride.



As i Said, there are dumb (and i forgot to say mentally ill people) but i don't think that men killing each other is a sign of stupidity. I think it's a matter of priorities, not intelligence
In my whole message I was quoting yourself. And if the "matter of priorities" is correct for human beings, why shouldn't it be for other animals?

raul_
January 9th, 2007, 04:06 PM
And if the "matter of priorities" is correct for human beings, why shouldn't it be for other animals?

Very true. Maybe the priority to animals isn't improving their life quality nor life expectancy and their life goal is....whatever.
Just to explain my point further, I think that killing a man isn't sign of stupidity: It can be either an act of self defense, or a way to achieve some evil master plan ( master plan = intelligent plan ), maybe insanity, but except for the latter, the person is totally aware of what he/she is doing

Evil can be intelligent