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View Full Version : Another success Windows refund. (Acer.)



Sunnz
January 6th, 2007, 05:40 PM
Pretty sure that everyone has heard of it, but this one is quite impressive IMHO:
http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?t=139627&page=1&pp=15

To just give some food for thought: this shouldn't just apply to alternative OS like Linux, you might as well have a "spare" copy of Windows, or even Vista RC2? In such cases the OS of the computer isn't needed neither; this should be useful to Windows users as well.

MrHorus
January 6th, 2007, 06:29 PM
Wow, well done and hats off to the bloke!

I read through all 7 pages and he really stuck the boot in and didn't give up.

Well worth the read!

Sunnz
January 6th, 2007, 06:35 PM
I know I've read through all 7 pages too!!! Although I skipped some comments from other posters, 7 pages isn't that much when you see such impressive person, who basically tear down a Acer's argument into a refund all by himself!!!

roderikk
January 6th, 2007, 07:27 PM
Well worth the read indeed! I purposely built my own computer in february just so I didn't have to go through all this hassle. I had never tried linux before but decided I would just learn it because... I don't know, some gut feeling... And I must say I am glad that I have regained control over my pc. You can do so much more (at least easier) using linux!

tomcat1965
January 6th, 2007, 07:52 PM
Well why don't we set up a fund for a class action suit against Microsoft? The pre-installation of
Widows only results from bully boy tactics from M$,they have been forced by the EU to release a different version of Vista in Europe to allow third party security vendors to supply anti-virus/spyware solutions. I recently contacted my MP about it,who thought PC's had to run Windows!
The analogy I gave was buying a car then being forced to run it on One company's fuel and only have insurance from the manufacturers "approved Insurer."
In the mean time write to hardware vendors who insist on selling pc's with M$ installed saying why you haven't bought from them.
Go to your local large PC retailer,take a PC to the checkout and say you want the cost Windows taken off,when they refuse just leave it and walk.....if PC World or Curry's etc had that happen 20 times a day they might get the message....
Write to your local paper and say you can't afford the M$ tax for your child notebook for college/school....and it's grossly unfair on low income families.:mad:

Mathiasdm
January 6th, 2007, 08:08 PM
A very interesting thread indeed. Thank you for the link!

I have an Acer, and I've sent it in for repairs (problems with the power supply).

The thing is, upon boot, the Grub menu appears, so I've quite curious about what they'll do with the laptop (I hope they won't erase the hard drive).

A thing I've noticed on the website of Acer Belgium... When you're sending them information about a problem you have (by online form), you need to specify (in a list) the OS you have. Linux is in there!

I didn't select it, though, since Windows is currently my main OS (because I have some problems with wireless drivers in Linux).

Anyways, my point is: Acer is not necessarily negative towards Linux (I think they're mainly annoyed about having to pay back the money for Windows ;-) ).

I hope more people will request this (I'll probably do so, the next time I get a computer), so they'll actually release a laptop without OS (or with Linux :-D ).

Sunnz
January 6th, 2007, 08:13 PM
Go to your local large PC retailer,take a PC to the checkout and say you want the cost Windows taken off,when they refuse just leave it and walk.....if PC World or Curry's etc had that happen 20 times a day they might get the message....:mad:

I've been thinking about this kind of stuff lately...

My ideas include:

When buying Music CDs, always ask if it is DRM-Free, put it back to the shelf if negative.

Likewise, ask if it is rootkit-free!

When buying (or thinking of buying) hardware, like printer, just go straight to the salesman and ask for a "linux laser printer".

Ask for a linux version of WOW.

Tell them there isn't a Linux version of IE when those "technical support" people ask you to launch IE!

The point I want to get is, the user base of Linux is growing faster than ever. Linux users shall now act as if Linux is your average OS and act as if you expect that product would just work with Linux like it does with Windows.

The world needs to know Linux is the norm. If every Linux user can do these things once in a while, the message will be out there soon. Hence, it must start somewhere!!

maniacmusician
January 6th, 2007, 08:28 PM
Anyways, my point is: Acer is not necessarily negative towards Linux (I think they're mainly annoyed about having to pay back the money for Windows ;-) ).

I hope more people will request this (I'll probably do so, the next time I get a computer), so they'll actually release a laptop without OS (or with Linux :-D ).

The reason Acer and everyone else does this is because Microsoft gets mad at them if they start offering a choice and/or allow people to not use Windows.

I'm buying a laptop in the spring and I most definitely, with complete conviction, will not buy a laptop with Windows on it. Every company that turns me down, I'll move to another one, and if they all turn me down, I'll really start badgering one of them (whoever has the best lappy :) ) I guess it'd be a good idea to document that as well. But there is no way that I'm paying for windows (especially not for a Vista license)

Lord Illidan
January 6th, 2007, 08:36 PM
The reason Acer and everyone else does this is because Microsoft gets mad at them if they start offering a choice and/or allow people to not use Windows.

I'm buying a laptop in the spring and I most definitely, with complete conviction, will not buy a laptop with Windows on it. Every company that turns me down, I'll move to another one, and if they all turn me down, I'll really start badgering one of them (whoever has the best lappy :) ) I guess it'd be a good idea to document that as well. But there is no way that I'm paying for windows (especially not for a Vista license)

Me too. The way things are in my family, my two sisters have already got used to a linux environment, and my father would probably get used to it too. As for me, well, Windows is taking up space only for 2 games which I hardly ever play...and probably, I might remove, as I prefer Quake 4, UT 2004 and Tremulous and Wesnoth and Starcraft upon Wine.

People somehow think, and in a way it is also taught to them, that a computer can't work without Windows. Their perception is that the only OS out there is Windows. We're out there to change that.

jclmusic
January 6th, 2007, 10:28 PM
Go to your local large PC retailer,take a PC to the checkout and say you want the cost Windows taken off,when they refuse just leave it and walk.....if PC World or Curry's etc had that happen 20 times a day they might get the message....

i so have to do that :D

happy-and-lost
January 6th, 2007, 10:38 PM
Too right. I'm gearing myself up for a long battle with the staff of PCWorld when it comes to helping my dad buy a new PC (I'm gradually persuading him that it would make far more sense to use Ubuntu). Seeing as Vista will be rampant when the purchace takes place, I'm guessing the "improved GUI" argument will crop up.

A little off topic, but the best people to interrogate are Mac salespeople, as they assume they're selling you an machine far superior to what you already have. ("I just got a new laptop of similar spec for half that price", "Well, this has Mac OSX on it.", "So, it's just a glorified and polished Unix system.", "Well... what does your laptop look like?", "Silver and white, just like that.", "... this is a Mac.") Good fun.

tomcat1965
January 7th, 2007, 12:09 AM
I'm off to Curry's tomorrow.....and check out this link folks:

http://community.linux.com/community...7.shtml?tid=12

Let's do it,if enough of us do then it will make news in the mainstream media not just Slashdot,this need's to get on TV.

Happy hunting!:)

maniacmusician
January 7th, 2007, 12:17 AM
I'm off to Curry's tomorrow.....and check out this link folks:

http://community.linux.com/community...7.shtml?tid=12

Let's do it,if enough of us do then it will make news in the mainstream media not just Slashdot,this need's to get on TV.

Happy hunting!:)

your link doesn't work tomcat :) you've gotta post the whole url, you've got it truncated with that ellipses in the middle :)

jclmusic
January 7th, 2007, 02:59 PM
is this the one? :)
http://community.linux.com/community/07/01/03/227237.shtml?tid=12

saulgoode
January 7th, 2007, 04:46 PM
I am a great advocate of people purchasing machines without Windows installed but I do feel that in the cases cited thus far, the customer should express a willingness to return the entire purchased package for refund (I did not see that mentioned in the weblogs I read).

Whether Windows "bundling" might be illegal collusion is for the courts to decide (and varies with differing jurisdictions) and until such a decision is made, the vendors are within their rights (IMO) to not separate the packages that they sell. The customer has the right to refuse the entire package, and the vendor has the option to refund the "Windows tax" (rather then lose the entire sale); but I do not think that a partial refund is their only choice.

PartisanEntity
January 7th, 2007, 04:51 PM
Thanks for sharing, very good read. Also more and more people should make official complaints about pre installed software where a choice is not available.

Lord Illidan
January 7th, 2007, 08:46 PM
In a way, I don't really blame the companies who bundle the software for being reluctant to give refunds.

How can they know if you are seriously going to use another OS, or you have just copied the restore cd or did an image of the harddrive?

Also, many people buy pcs without OSes just to install a cracked windows on em.

I blame Microsoft for their licensing deals.

Sunnz
January 8th, 2007, 05:45 AM
I guess that's why they required that guy to sign the document, which says all the CD has been returned and at the end, that he is not lying.

macogw
January 8th, 2007, 06:24 AM
Too right. I'm gearing myself up for a long battle with the staff of PCWorld when it comes to helping my dad buy a new PC (I'm gradually persuading him that it would make far more sense to use Ubuntu). Seeing as Vista will be rampant when the purchace takes place, I'm guessing the "improved GUI" argument will crop up.

A little off topic, but the best people to interrogate are Mac salespeople, as they assume they're selling you an machine far superior to what you already have. ("I just got a new laptop of similar spec for half that price", "Well, this has Mac OSX on it.", "So, it's just a glorified and polished Unix system.", "Well... what does your laptop look like?", "Silver and white, just like that.", "... this is a Mac.") Good fun.
I just kept going "bash...need bash...where's bash? found bash! why is it white? terminals are not supposed to be white. black background with white, grey, or green text, that's it. make bash black!" Then I typed in a fork bomb but didn't hit enter. After I told the sales guy what it did, he wanted to know how it worked and what you type in for that. I think if I was to try to use a Mac, I'd use my boyfriend's method: all X-terms, avoid the GUI. I can't stand the Mac GUI. It feels counter-intuitive to me. Too many menus and dialog boxes to get to bash. If they tried to go all "oh but look at the graphical interface" I'll open an X-term, maximize it, and tell them it should be black, then use lynx to go to yahoo.com.

macogw
January 8th, 2007, 06:25 AM
I am a great advocate of people purchasing machines without Windows installed but I do feel that in the cases cited thus far, the customer should express a willingness to return the entire purchased package for refund (I did not see that mentioned in the weblogs I read).

Whether Windows "bundling" might be illegal collusion is for the courts to decide (and varies with differing jurisdictions) and until such a decision is made, the vendors are within their rights (IMO) to not separate the packages that they sell. The customer has the right to refuse the entire package, and the vendor has the option to refund the "Windows tax" (rather then lose the entire sale); but I do not think that a partial refund is their only choice.

If you read the Windows EULA it says the *software* can be returned as long as you don't use it and dont hit "I Accept" on the EULA.

Dale61
January 8th, 2007, 07:02 AM
That guy on the fedora forum has done what was done 9 years ago in Australia.

http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html

However, this was done for Windows 98, so refusing the EULA and requesting a refund is nothing new.

macogw
January 8th, 2007, 09:22 AM
http://tinyurl.com/w93fp
There's one from Dell

spockrock
January 8th, 2007, 11:34 AM
I am gonna get a macbook pro, but dual boot osx and ubuntu.....might as well I run windows, linux, bsd, might as well give osx a whirl......

alarikus
January 8th, 2007, 11:49 AM
I've just moved to GNU/Linux on all my LAN connected Pentium4 class machines.
My daughter, 18 and my son, 16, both high school students are doig the same.
No more, licenses, activations, hangups and a lot of DOBs saved. Great!
:twisted:

AndyCooll
January 8th, 2007, 02:06 PM
That guy on the fedora forum has done what was done 9 years ago in Australia.

http://www.netcraft.com.au/geoffrey/toshiba.html

However, this was done for Windows 98, so refusing the EULA and requesting a refund is nothing new.

True, it isn't anything new. However it shows things haven't improved and that it's still just as difficult nine years on.

:cool:

Sunnz
January 8th, 2007, 05:15 PM
I just kept going "bash...need bash...where's bash? found bash! why is it white? terminals are not supposed to be white. black background with white, grey, or green text, that's it. make bash black!" Then I typed in a fork bomb but didn't hit enter. After I told the sales guy what it did, he wanted to know how it worked and what you type in for that. I think if I was to try to use a Mac, I'd use my boyfriend's method: all X-terms, avoid the GUI. I can't stand the Mac GUI. It feels counter-intuitive to me. Too many menus and dialog boxes to get to bash. If they tried to go all "oh but look at the graphical interface" I'll open an X-term, maximize it, and tell them it should be black, then use lynx to go to yahoo.com.You can change the "Terminal" background to anything you like, just like gnome-terminal, konsole, "insert cmd emulator here". I have mine as black on yellow background, see attached.

Oh, BTW, I can't find lynx on my Mac... but links... though I can't remember if I installed that myself or... again, see attached.


If you read the Windows EULA it says the *software* can be returned as long as you don't use it and dont hit "I Accept" on the EULA.
Umm... if you have installed Linux on it anyway, how do they know what you've clicked? (Hint, those who didn't get a refund can send them an email now and see what they response are!!!)

macogw
January 11th, 2007, 10:50 AM
You can change the "Terminal" background to anything you like, just like gnome-terminal, konsole, "insert cmd emulator here". I have mine as black on yellow background, see attached.

Oh, BTW, I can't find lynx on my Mac... but links... though I can't remember if I installed that myself or... again, see attached.
They change the name in Mac OS? Lame. It's lynx elsewhere.

I know you can change it on a Mac. My bf's Mac has proper terminal colors, but where is that option? I hunted through the menus and looked in preferences on bash and I can't find it anywhere :-?

Sunnz
January 11th, 2007, 11:11 AM
Ohh so lynx isn't pre-installed on Ubuntu neither? Nice to know!!! :p

But no, lynx is lynx, links is links, I suggest you to 'apt-get' it (links2) and try out!!!

On the Mac, you click "Terminal" on the menu bar, go to "Windows Settings", then select "Colour" from the List.

(This has gone sooo off-topic...)

spockrock
January 11th, 2007, 11:13 AM
lol while we are on it, I prefer a white background with colour/black text........

Sunnz
January 11th, 2007, 11:30 AM
lol, the choices!!

Anyway, if you are going to the Olympics next year, you can buy a laptop as well with Linux pre-installed, from Dell!!! Apparently MS were only able to force their OS on Western countries, whereas in Beijing, they get big posters of Dell computers running Linux!!!

http://regmedia.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_poster.jpg http://regmedia.co.uk/2007/01/09/linux_closeup.jpg

Link: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/09/dell_linux_china

shearn89
February 17th, 2007, 05:48 PM
If thats 4000 yen, then that computers only about 265! It doesn't look too bad either (although i can't read chinese)...

OldTimeTech
February 17th, 2007, 08:01 PM
Seems like the story was never finished......

Did Acer send him back his computer in the three days?
Did Acer actually put the policy online (too lazy to try and dig through Acer website)?
Did Acer actually ever pay him the 60 pounds/euro?

Lord, wish I had read this two days ago, just ordered an Acer 9300-5005, course I'm going to have to keep the Windoze, cause of the significant other....but plan to add Ubuntu as dual boot.

obelisk
February 21st, 2007, 09:32 PM
I know everyone is trying refunds with windows which I applaud but has anyone wanted to or tried with OSX or is that not a choice because it's their hardware also?

Sunnz
March 26th, 2007, 05:30 PM
Seems like the story was never finished......

Did Acer send him back his computer in the three days?
Did Acer actually put the policy online (too lazy to try and dig through Acer website)?
Did Acer actually ever pay him the 60 pounds/euro?

Lord, wish I had read this two days ago, just ordered an Acer 9300-5005, course I'm going to have to keep the Windoze, cause of the significant other....but plan to add Ubuntu as dual boot.
Yes, no, no (yet?).

See http://forums.fedoraforum.org/showthread.php?p=767501#post767517.

newbie2
September 22nd, 2007, 06:37 PM
another success :

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=42546
http://perso.libre-zone.net/article-125-proc-dure-r-ussie-num-ro-4.html

:popcorn:

Nano Geek
September 23rd, 2007, 04:04 AM
I know everyone is trying refunds with windows which I applaud but has anyone wanted to or tried with OSX or is that not a choice because it's their hardware also?Not sure, but I doubt they would since they make the hardware as well as the software.

Sunnz
September 23rd, 2007, 06:17 AM
I know everyone is trying refunds with windows which I applaud but has anyone wanted to or tried with OSX or is that not a choice because it's their hardware also?
I guess a huge majority of Mac buyers are Mac fans who buy it for OS X in the first place...

multifaceted
September 23rd, 2007, 04:15 PM
Screw that!... he should be entitled to a full refund... that is if he first stated that he did not want WinXP as a "part" of his machine.

Nonetheless, it is very amusing to read and equally interesting to think about. I am in the market for a new laptop and just may pull something similar --(beforehand of course)-- at the local CompUSA.

Knowing that most all of the salespersons there know little of Linux other than it's difference from Windows... I'll be sure to roll up with a large wad of cash and see how much I can sway the minds of the floor manager... he he he

The bigger they are, the harder they fall... do not give up Linux community!

Dimitriid
September 23rd, 2007, 04:36 PM
I do not consider that a success at all. First of all, Acer wants me to send the computer at my expense? Is not my fault they installed windows to begin with. Second, Acer's new policy letter was a devious attempt to trick the user: Make the recovery disks? If you make them then you already accepted EULA and you are NOT entitled to the refund. Put all logins and passwords? Again if you already have em, you already accepted EULA and are NOT entitled to a refund. Seems to me that they were more interesting into tricking him into a loophole than sending him a check, which apparently its still only a promise.

And third, paying shipping and my expense or taking it to a retailer just to "uninstall" windows is an absurd tactic to discourage claims: seems to me like Windows Genuine Advantage is not such and advantage when you are trying to get rid of it: Microsoft should have all the databases about whenever or not my product has already been activated to my hardware. Acer has a database of all the specific hardware pieces down to their particular serial number by accessing my model serial number. If you provide your serial number over the phone to them they are perfectly capable of taking 15 minutes, calling microsoft and confirm that the product has not been activated.

If they activated it for me like they claim ( again, FUD spreading on Acer part that expects users not to know anything about the legal system or their rights ) then they do not have to do ANY of that and can just send me my check since THEY are the ones that purchased and agreed to use Windows and not me. In which case it would not matter if I accept the EULA terms or not, I would not be legally bound to any of those terms since I cannot accept the exact same terms if they already have been accepted for that particular copy to being with, which would mean I have no legal obligation to ANYTHING on that EULA. By agreeing the EULA themselves as they claim they are effectively taking responsibility for whatever I decide to do with the system since when I bought the notebook, I did not sign any agreement specifically saying that I agree to honor or be transfered the EULA already in place and abide all its terms.

Which means I can freely copy and redistribute my copy of Windows Vista on my Acer computer freely and any legal action would only apply to ACER and not me if I choose to.

See how poorly constructed is that? If he has that on writting he either has Acer openly lying or openly taking responsibility for the EULA and giving people permission to redistribute the OS freely. If he has the funny "terms" of his return on writting he has yet another set of manipulation and lies when Acer is intentionally trying to trick you into accepting an EULA, an EULA that is supposedly accepted already, to put the blame squarely on you.

It only shows you how all hardware manufacturers that preload windows are as guilty of illegal business practices as Microsoft themselves. That is what Microsoft ultimately promotes: illegal practices to hurt competition.

genti
February 8th, 2008, 08:16 PM
Ok this is what happens:

1. I buy an Acer laptop ~ end December 2007.

2 I was waiting for a job answer that gives me a laptop so I did not open it yet.

3. I send an email to Acer in January asking about the Windows refund. Acer in US.

4. They reply that I need to call. Ok.

5. I call. The tech support was friendly but she did not know anything about the Windows refund. After explaining to her and she asking her coworkers she told me that I need to send it back. Refund is going to be less than $50 for Vista premium.

6 I send it with Fedex the next day.I paid ~$9.5.

7. I receive the computer after 2 weeks. WINDOWS IS STILL ON!! They had just opened the computer and sent it back. They had agreed to the terms for me. I delete their Windows version and install Ubuntu + Vista Business (I will switch to XP Pro, maybe VMware if I solve the suspend issues).

8. I call Acer to ask about my check. They say the tech has screwed up but still I HAVE TO SEND IT BACK, For the 2nd time. OMG!
Ok, i thought about it. The previous effort is considered sunk cost so they sent me a Fedex thing via email. Next day I ship it back.

9. The kicker, ~10 days later (yesterday) they call me back.
They say there is a crack on the computer and the motherboard is damaged. It is not under warranty and it costs ~$425. WTF.

I packed it with their original box and I was 100% sure that there were no cracks when I send it. I barely used it for 2 weeks. I asked whether the package was damaged. The rep says "I will need to check that sir..."
So Acer thinks it is easier to mess around with clients instead of checking the obvious first.
I will update this thing once I hear from them.