What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X?

[edward4130]

there is a big difference between a "commercial OS release" and any linux flavor. You buy windows or mac because it should just work... well not windows. Mac OS is a VERY polished and functional unix overlay, yes it cost money but not as much as the nice hardware costs. If you think that a mac is expensive, you must buy POS computers to lead any OS on, because there is not a Wonblows PC manufacturer that makes a portable with a REAL videocard for less than $2000. Sure there are many craptops out there for $500 -$600 but you are getting serious junk in almost all cases.

[bufsabre666]

there is a big difference between a "commercial OS release" and any linux flavor. You buy windows or mac because it should just work... well not windows. Mac OS is a VERY polished and functional unix overlay, yes it cost money but not as much as the nice hardware costs. If you think that a mac is expensive, you must buy POS computers to lead any OS on, because there is not a Wonblows PC manufacturer that makes a portable with a REAL videocard for less than $2000. Sure there are many craptops out there for $500 -$600 but you are getting serious junk in almost all cases.

bah youre joking right? there are literally TONS of 800-900$ pcs that have dedicated graphics, most of which can be just as good if not better than the 8400 used in the macbook pro

[edward4130]

bah youre joking right? there are literally TONS of 800-900$ pcs that have dedicated graphics, most of which can be just as good if not better than the 8400 used in the macbook pro

Really $900 for a Laptop with a dedicated graphics? I never seen one. Who makes one? Can I not pay the windows tax on it, and get it OS free? What kind of parts does it have to make it that affordable?

Don't get me wrong, I love and use linux like mad. But we all in here had t earn the cool stuff we do in them. I won't use MS Windows, too buggy for paid software. If you don't want to jack with a OS or hardware get a Mac, they may not make low-end computers, but they work well. They also have Top knotch support, toll free and in store for hardware. Those of us on this forum like to make computers work. Many other people would rather pay the money for quality and just have it done for them.

Linux will get there, thanks to Microsoft and the year and a half old "work in progress" (their quote not mine). It is happening faster than ever. Apple has a reputation of making easy to use technology, they are taking care of those that want to use a computer, not work on it.

And Go Sabers, I miss watching Dominick Hassick, did I spell that correctly?

[bufsabre666]

Really $900 for a Laptop with a dedicated graphics? I never seen one. Who makes one? Can I not pay the windows tax on it, and get it OS free? What kind of parts does it have to make it that affordable?

Don't get me wrong, I love and use linux like mad. But we all in here had t earn the cool stuff we do in them. I won't use MS Windows, too buggy for paid software. If you don't want to jack with a OS or hardware get a Mac, they may not make low-end computers, but they work well. They also have Top knotch support, toll free and in store for hardware. Those of us on this forum like to make computers work. Many other people would rather pay the money for quality and just have it done for them.

Linux will get there, thanks to Microsoft and the year and a half old "work in progress" (their quote not mine). It is happening faster than ever. Apple has a reputation of making easy to use technology, they are taking care of those that want to use a computer, not work on it.

And Go Sabers, I miss watching Dominick Hassick, did I spell that correctly?

its hasek although since he left here hes kinda been treated as a traitor, here at best buy and circuit city there has to be 12 differnt computers with dedicated graphics from like 800$ to about 1200$ ((depending on other features and brand, i still dont get how sony can charge so much more ?)) if you goto the websites of mfts and config a computer you can change alot of them to dedicated for usually 90-120$ more ((the hp im ganna buy next week costs 1250 in total with 8600gt graphics)) i dont know about opensource os's though maybe the dell ubuntu ones i think a couple of those have dedicated if you add it but you pay more in for them cause theres no trial software to bring the price down, and all 3 system76 laptops have a dedicated option i believe

[madjr]

Really $900 for a Laptop with a dedicated graphics? I never seen one. Who makes one? Can I not pay the windows tax on it, and get it OS free? What kind of parts does it have to make it that affordable?



you never seen one? what's so hard to believe

i got a Dell inspiron 1420 with an Nvidia 8400GS for $800 and ubuntu pre-installed

[Lord Xeb]

Go to Newegg.com (http://www.newegg.com) and start browsing. You will find plent of $900 laptops. The price of a laptop has gone down in the past few years and this has made it possible to put dedicated graphics in a $900 machine.

Here is one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834101154)

[hive225]

I am a relatively new ubuntu user, but I love my Mac's.

I have one of the Macbook Pro's & one of the Mac Pro's and mainly use them with programs such as Pro Tools and Ableton Live in my studio.

It's nice to be able to use something besides Microsoft that actually does what it's supposed to.

[HappyHenry]

I envy my wife and her Macbook pro. When she lets my touch it I love it. I have no probs with Mac except the hefty price but she's worth it. ( I'll leave you to guess the noun "she's" posseses, lol"
We have had no problems with her Mac except Airport seems awfully hit and miss on connections. I can always connect with no probs on my Ubuntu Hardy Haron in a compaq 6710b but she gets droped off and on.
Im not sure about the graphics on those Macs but her colors seem much more vibrant than any thing I can do with this old war horse or even my top line desktop pc.
So no Linux folks dont hate Mac. If I could afford another Macpro I would get one for myself but I would NEVER give up my Ubuntu! Ubuntu and Linux is simply too much fun and I have never have lost anything important on my pc, she has lost a few things on the Mac but I'm not ready to blame OSX yet.
Linux, fantastic
OSX, great
Windows,shoot me first so at least I can hope to die before i go insane.

[m4cks]

best of both worlds - been running ubuntu on a macbook 4,1 for a few months now. a bit tricky to get all the hardware working, including all the multi-touch stuff, but its great!

[the8thstar]

I think OS X is what Ubuntu should try for. Not that it should copy it in terms of apps and GUI, but the integration and the GUI oriented processes are what make OS X so easy and reliable compared to other UNIX-Linux variants.

[chestnut1969]

Mac OS X is very polished interface-wise, and a pleasure to use. If you come from a Linux/BSD background it will feel very familiar. Beware if you decide to go down the Mac Mini route, I've experienced more driver issues with using hardware such as scanners/web cams etc than under Linux.

The main advantage I can see is in the commercial software available for it, especially if you are in the design field. You can also purchase native MS Office; although under Linux/OS X I prefer Crossover w/Office 2007 (of course you can always opt for Open Office:) ). iTunes is just a joy on the Mac, and seems to run far more efficiently than the Windows version.

From a machine design perspective, you just cannot beat the Mac. You can transform that PC box, mess of cables and mix-matched peripherals into something quite aesthetically pleasing.

[mips]

Only been using OSX for a day now and I'm a bit lost. Looks nice, responsive etc. I'm not sure how everything works just yet and it feels a bit 'dumbed down' to me. I prefer a repository to install apps though.

I only clicked a few moments ago how to access application preference, duh.

How does one change the fonts and font sizes. My linux fonts looked better in all honesty.

[handy]

Only been using OSX for a day now and I'm a bit lost. Looks nice, responsive etc. I'm not sure how everything works just yet and it feels a bit 'dumbed down' to me. I prefer a repository to install apps though.

I only clicked a few moments ago how to access application preference, duh.

How does one change the fonts and font sizes. My linux fonts looked better in all honesty.

The Menu: Finder / View / Show View Options

Will allow you to adjust the font size up to a maximum of 16; this menu is applicable to whatever is active (with certain limits), so if you select the desktop & go to the menu it will adjust the settings on the desktop, if you have a Finder window open it works there.

On my 24" screen there are quite a few fonts that I can not adjust, which is a real pain in the eyes at times.

Regarding changing fonts, I have never bothered looking, so I can't help you there, apart from suggesting that you have a look at Applications / Font Book.

A tip that just came to mind is to install Perian (http://perian.org/), it gives you a very useful range of Quicktime codecs for free.

Leopard is in the opposite corner to Arch!

P.S.

I'll send you some pics from NZ, when I get around to it mips. ;-)

[steveneddy]

What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X?

I want a MacBook Air

[Frak]

The Menu: Finder / View / Show View Options

Will allow you to adjust the font size up to a maximum of 16; this menu is applicable to whatever is active (with certain limits), so if you select the desktop & go to the menu it will adjust the settings on the desktop, if you have a Finder window open it works there.

On my 24" screen there are quite a few fonts that I can not adjust, which is a real pain in the eyes at times.

Regarding changing fonts, I have never bothered looking, so I can't help you there, apart from suggesting that you have a look at Applications / Font Book.

A tip that just came to mind is to install Perian (http://perian.org/), it gives you a very useful range of Quicktime codecs for free.

Leopard is in the opposite corner to Arch!

P.S.

I'll send you some pics from NZ, when I get around to it mips. ;-)

Handy, you're my hero. Thanks for Perian :D.

What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X?

I want a MacBook Air

I have one. It's nothing amazing. It's nothing that hasn't already been done.

[tashmooclam]

Apple and OSX are outstanding, but the reason is the fantastic integration between the applications. Make a slideshow with iPhoto and iTunes can be the source of music. You can make the slideshow an iMovie with the iTunes music burn it to a dvd. Making a keynote (powerpoint) presentation, you can integrate the iMovie clips as quicktime, etc. The real advantage of Apple is they also write applications, and they all work well together. I like Ubuntu, but I can't get F-spot to behave well enough to even export to a cd and burn my photos. And iChat video is great.

[Frak]

Apple and OSX are outstanding, but the reason is the fantastic integration between the applications. Make a slideshow with iPhoto and iTunes can be the source of music. You can make the slideshow an iMovie with the iTunes music burn it to a dvd. Making a keynote (powerpoint) presentation, you can integrate the iMovie clips as quicktime, etc. The real advantage of Apple is they also write applications, and they all work well together. I like Ubuntu, but I can't get F-spot to behave well enough to even export to a cd and burn my photos. And iChat video is great.
Apple bought about 90% of all those great applications. They aren't "that" innovative. Mac OS X, in a sense, was also bought.

[cprofitt]

From a machine design perspective, you just cannot beat the Mac. You can transform that PC box, mess of cables and mix-matched peripherals into something quite aesthetically pleasing.

Just curious if you have seen some of the excellent PC rigs people build... that are not a mess of cables or mix-matched peripherals.

[cprofitt]

Apple and OSX are outstanding, but the reason is the fantastic integration between the applications. Make a slideshow with iPhoto and iTunes can be the source of music. You can make the slideshow an iMovie with the iTunes music burn it to a dvd. Making a keynote (powerpoint) presentation, you can integrate the iMovie clips as quicktime, etc. The real advantage of Apple is they also write applications, and they all work well together. I like Ubuntu, but I can't get F-spot to behave well enough to even export to a cd and burn my photos. And iChat video is great.

I thought that if I made a presentation with PowerPoint that I could embed movies too and I know if I make a movie with Movie makes I can use MediaPlayer files as the source of music... I must be missing your point though...

I will have to play more with the MacBook Pro I just was forced to start using.

[handy]

From a machine design perspective, you just cannot beat the Mac. You can transform that PC box, mess of cables and mix-matched peripherals into something quite aesthetically pleasing.

I have an iMac, which is currently away having its noisy optical drive replaced under warranty. To open up the iMac you have to remove the front glass panel which is held in place by magnets, there is an Apple tool for the job, though anyone with a suction-cup tool is in the race, the worst thing that can happen is you break your screen's glass!!! (can you imagine what Apple would charge for a replacement?)

I have opened up a variety of Apple machines over the years & found them to be a pain to work on compared to the vast majority of non-Apple machines out there.

Apple do make pretty things, but boy they can sure make them so much harder to work on in the process, & I think that often that difficulty is there by design with the intention of keeping the hardware work in Apple's hands too.

[flangemonkey]

I worked for apple for a while, the OS design is basically, we work with our own hardware and we work with hardware that paid attention to our pre release,otherwise, screw you.

and I think this is the right way to go.

IE was the best browser around, M$ 'acquired' it and let it lie dormant, they've now picked up their shoes... Safari, the opposer in commercial land was 'better' but there's a bug (I've seen it) where Mac OS has **** upload speed, so IE wins that puny war... Whereas it should be a war between the best, :(

otherwise, returning to M$, the previous code releases show the weaknesses (like Apple) come from unexpected uses of features to help the user (M$: many Safari, trusting file types), or abuses of features provided for 3rd party products to work (IBM ViaVoice).

anyway, a rant was not asked for, M$ try to appease everybody and end up creating too many problems, Mac try to keep their codebase 'clean' and Linux try to keep it secure, or at least somewhere between secure and usable...

in the long run Linux has the best chance, but only if people run the updates, otherwise it's Apple.

M$ have annoyed too many people now. and Mr Gates has quit, so the personality war went... although their codebase is the strongest, the chance of them winning decreases as the weaknesses introduced for 3rd parties are really weaknesses and Linux doesn't allow for such weaknesses will let Linux rise to the top.

Finally, the repository system is good (worthy of beating M$ into the ground), but Ubuntu fails with this one great point as sometimes the latest version is a great thing but not always held with the latest upgrade (specifically, I mention Ktorrent, as that is why I upgraded a whole distro version) and the (last) version in the distro mightn't be the best...

so (summary, while inebriated)

Mac OS: limited SW / HW: Good at what it does

M$ Windows: Good on proprietary HW: broken at the first sign of shareware or malware

Linux: Good, but you need someone to help you at first, and to keep moving towards what you want (honestly, I think Linux users will end up somewhere between Ubuntu and LFS).

(sorry about the length!)

[tashmooclam]

Powerpoint was a company whose product ran only on Apple hardware. So, Microsoft bought them, as they did Excel. Anyway, it doesn't matter. There are some nice things about Ubuntu/Linux that I like very much, but the TOTAL package when using Mac with iLife and iWork is just unbeatable. Keynote is a much slicker and prettier presentation than Powerpoint. iPhoto sure works better for me than F-spot, I can make an iMovie or a Quicktime using my iSight webcam and post it on youtube in a few minutes. I downloaded a picasaweb button to iPhoto and take an album and make a photo page in a minute. But, you can't argue with a $379 NEW 15" Everex gBook from Walmart running Linux. Apples are good to find used, I got a super 12" aluminum powerbook for $320 for traveling.

[tashmooclam]

An irrelevant addendum. When in coffee shops, young women have actually said "Oh, what a cute laptop" when looking at my shiny nice 12" Powerbook.Priceless.

[sicofante]

I think OS X is what Ubuntu should try for. Not that it should copy it in terms of apps and GUI, but the integration and the GUI oriented processes are what make OS X so easy and reliable compared to other UNIX-Linux variants.
Exactly my thoughts.

Gnome should be THE platform (not "Linux" in the same way BSD is not what makes OSX a platform) and provide as much integration as possible, both for their own apps and third party, by making it ridiculously easy and by enforcing it as much as possible.

The famous "OSX experience" is just that.

[handy]

Powerpoint was a company whose product ran only on Apple hardware. So, Microsoft bought them, as they did Excel.

Could you please post a reference for MS buying Excel?

I was under the impression that it was MS's first product - Excel for Apple; I'd like to know more history on the topic if possible...

[Orlsend]

Dont really have anything against the of (Only the Price)

The Is agaisnt the company and its products (The charge you so much for their Junk)

I been like Mac for grandparents! the comp are new to hem so they need somthing for no brainers (Since most Mac OS are very Visual) its perfect for them.

[tashmooclam]

Ooops. Microsoft did make Excel. They bought the trademark of another software product named "Excel", previously they had to call their product "microsoft excel" because the other product had the name first.

[handy]

Dont really have anything against the of (Only the Price)

The Is agaisnt the company and its products (The charge you so much for their Junk)

I been like Mac for grandparents! the comp are new to hem so they need somthing for no brainers (Since most Mac OS are very Visual) its perfect for them.

As hard as it is to perceive another's point of view as valid sometimes; I believe that if all computer users on our planet were surveyed regarding the importance of the OS, most would consider it way below secondary, which would further the idea that the easier an OS is to use (could this be why the GUI was invented?) the more the vast majority of computer users will like it.

We have to be very careful with regards to feeling more intelligent, or superior (for whatever reason) with regard to our personal preferences as opposed to other people's.

In the end, freedom of choice rules, & we will do whatever we can to preserve such freedom, won't we?

P.S.

You may want to tidy up your grammar & spelling, so as not to give people the wrong idea about you? They may classify you as illiterate when in reality you were in a hurry, or English is your second language. No one knows the details, so they jump to (often erroneous) conclusions.

[handy]

Ooops. Microsoft did make Excel. They bought the trademark of another software product named "Excel", previously they had to call their product "microsoft excel" because the other product had the name first.

Cool, thanks, I didn't know about the name thing. :-)

[chestnut1969]

Just curious if you have seen some of the excellent PC rigs people build... that are not a mess of cables or mix-matched peripherals.

That's a fair comment. I'm not comparing apples with apples so to speak. The various home-brew 'projects' I have on the go have more of a focus on functionality than looks.

[mips]

P.S.

I'll send you some pics from NZ, when I get around to it mips. ;-)

Cool, will be looking out for your mail.

I actually think I like linux more than osx. Probably because I don't really know how to use it but at times I want to bang my head against a wall.

[handy]

Cool, will be looking out for your mail.

I actually think I like linux more than osx. Probably because I don't really know how to use it but at times I want to bang my head against a wall.

Yes, I too prefer linux, though it is nice to know that when I stuff up a linux installation I can boot into Leopard & use the web to get myself out of trouble.

Though my iMac is away for a warranty job at the moment, & I'm really missing having a 2nd computer for reference, as I have 3 drives all with messy trial installs of various distro's. I would have rebuilt my initial test of Arch installation if I had a web reference machine. Unfortunately I did a huge (500+ Mb) pacman -Syu a couple of days ago, which made a real mess of Arch, though it was probably the way I merged the new config' files that made my Arch unable to access the internet!? :lolflag:

As it stands I'm putting Sabayon 3.4f back on a drive as unfortunately Sabayon 3.5 won't install; funny really when 3.4 handles my hardware better than any other distro'?

I'll send you some pic's after I get my mac back mips, it is due next Friday all going well.

As far as banging your head against a wall goes, I guess your frustration is heightened due to the fact that you know exactly how to do what you want to do on Linux. The Mac OS won't take you very long to get used to, in many ways I think it is the easiest to learn of them all. Though I guess it depends on how much you need to know. I don't need to know too much at all these days... :lolflag:

[mips]

On my 24" screen there are quite a few fonts that I can not adjust, which is a real pain in the eyes at times.

Regarding changing fonts, I have never bothered looking, so I can't help you there, apart from suggesting that you have a look at Applications / Font Book.


After some googling I have come to the conclusion that changing fonts in osx is either impossible or excruciatingly hard. It has to be done on a per application basis and this will take forever if you ask me.

There are however 3rd party apps like TinkerTool (http://www.versiontracker.com/dyn/moreinfo/macosx/11967) & Silk (http://unsanity.com/haxies/silk) which will apparently handle font setup for you.

I find this whole situation totally ridiculous. This is one area sabdfl does not have to worry about in beating OSX with his new linux desktop beautifying strategy.

[mips]

Yes, I too prefer linux, though it is nice to know that when I stuff up a linux installation I can boot into Leopard & use the web to get myself out of trouble.

If I stuff up linux I just boot up my laptop, if that is not working then a good livecd will do the job. My lappy currently only has a semi-finished openbox setup on it, just have to learn a bit more to get it going properly. The new Arch LiveCD coming out soon should be ideal for this, it is straight arch with no funny patches & mods + kdemod4.1


Though my iMac is away for a warranty job at the moment, & I'm really missing having a 2nd computer for reference, as I have 3 drives all with messy trial installs of various distro's. I would have rebuilt my initial test of Arch installation if I had a web reference machine. Unfortunately I did a huge (500+ Mb) pacman -Syu a couple of days ago, which made a real mess of Arch, though it was probably the way I merged the new config' files that made my Arch unable to access the internet!? :lolflag:

I have not played around with other distros for quite some time now unlike in the past where I would try new things all the time. I think I have settled with Arch for now but you never know as there might be something in the future that tickles my fancy.

I'm just waiting for kdemod4.1 and then I'll do a fresh install of arch on my pc again. Know it is not required but for some reason I have this mental thing that a fresh install is nicer :)


As it stands I'm putting Sabayon 3.4f back on a drive as unfortunately Sabayon 3.5 won't install; funny really when 3.4 handles my hardware better than any other distro'?

3.4 was there best version, I have not tried 3.5 yet though. I kinda fail to see the point of the new binary installer, I mean it's gentoo and that is not the gentoo way.


I'll send you some pic's after I get my mac back mips, it is due next Friday all going well.

No rush, I'll keep checking my inbox. How was your holiday btw?


As far as banging your head against a wall goes, I guess your frustration is heightened due to the fact that you know exactly how to do what you want to do on Linux. The Mac OS won't take you very long to get used to, in many ways I think it is the easiest to learn of them all. Though I guess it depends on how much you need to know. I don't need to know too much at all these days... :lolflag:

Lol, I always though gnome was dumbed down (although I like it's clean look) but osx just takes the cake when it comes to dumbed down. They do everything differently. I suppose if I was a first time pc user osx would be easy to learn. Lol, with osx I feel like a computer novice.

[handy]

If I stuff up linux I just boot up my laptop, if that is not working then a good livecd will do the job. My lappy currently only has a semi-finished openbox setup on it, just have to learn a bit more to get it going properly. The new Arch LiveCD coming out soon should be ideal for this, it is straight arch with no funny patches & mods + kdemod4.1

The 2nd machine is what is really important now that I look a little closer at the situation. Whether the OS is from a LiveCD/DVD, or an installed Leopard, Linux or whatever doesn't really matter as long as it has internet access. I don't play around with Leopard much, at least not in a fashion that will stop it from working (so far, so good anyway), so I can rely on it being available, except at the moment of course!

The Arch LiveCD sounds great, I look forward to that one.


I have not played around with other distros for quite some time now unlike in the past where I would try new things all the time. I think I have settled with Arch for now but you never know as there might be something in the future that tickles my fancy.

I haven't been doing much with other distro's either, that is why what I had on my test drives were neglected. The size of the update on the Arch disk was ridiculous. :lolflag:


I'm just waiting for kdemod4.1 and then I'll do a fresh install of arch on my pc again. Know it is not required but for some reason I have this mental thing that a fresh install is nicer :)


I agree, though I have done the occasional version upgrade just out of interest & each one has worked perfectly well, except a Sabayon & the very recent pacman -Syu.


3.4 was there best version, I have not tried 3.5 yet though. I kinda fail to see the point of the new binary installer, I mean it's gentoo and that is not the gentoo way.

Perhaps they are trying to move Gentoo along the lines of the Arch package installation system. I have been using portage today, & it really is so slow, compared to pacman/yaourt/tupac.


No rush, I'll keep checking my inbox. How was your holiday btw?

NZ was fantastic, we did not travel much, spent most of our time around Queenstown, which is probably the tourist center of NZ, even so everyone seemed really relaxed, both residents & visitors. The only hype I remember was up at Coronet ski field where they were in the process of appealing to the young, many of whom like lots of noise & fast talking!

Much of The Lord of the Rings movie was shot around Queenstown, it is magnificently beautiful territory, as you will see in the photo's.


Lol, I always though gnome was dumbed down (although I like it's clean look) but osx just takes the cake when it comes to dumbed down. They do everything differently. I suppose if I was a first time pc user osx would be easy to learn. Lol, with osx I feel like a computer novice.

I think it is aimed at making computer novices feel comfortable as quickly as possible. Much of the system is hidden from view, you have to get hold of software on the net to be able to access OSX's gizzards. I have seen the software, don't remember its name, I didn't bother acquiring it as I don't have any desire to go into OSX's underbelly. Yuk!

[Smoley]

I'm a linux lover but i love Mac OS X aswell
The thing i love about Mac OS X along with Linux is they both work!
Unlike the other alternative... yes thats you windows!
Linux and Mac shall rule the world together! :)

[Sweet Spot]

Bought a Macbook Pro about a month ago. Here's what it boils down to for me:

For daily tasks, basic work flow environment and efficiency, Linux.............beats the pants off of OS X, hands down. I really thought that OS X was going to be a more streamlined and pretty version of my Ubuntu/Kubuntu flavors, but as it turns out, I curse OS X quite often when trying to do the most simple tasks.

First off: NO CUT AND PASTE FOR FILES AND FOLDERS ! ? What idiot (Steve Jobs) thought that was a good idea ? I read somewhere that apple thought it would confuse their users. So now Apple thinks of their user base as being retarded ? Then you get Apple defenders saying that dragging a file around winows is the same thing, and that "what if you forget to paste the file, it will be lost". Holy cow man, seriously ?

iTunes. Wow. Biggest crap pile I've ever seen. Not only is it insulting to not have Ogg/FLAC support out of the box, but when you finally add Ogg support via the xiph file, you still don't get your files with the correct tags, so all songs are totally out of order. Guess if it's not done with the ever so perfect (lock down tool) iTunes, the tags don't mean anything eh ?

Getting iTunes to seamlessly get files from an external HD is like asking for a miracle. I got it to work one time, but after iTunes made a TOTAL mess of my folder heirarchy, leaving me to clean it up (which took half an hour because of no cut/paste) I had to start over from scratch, but then it never refreshed the playlist database as it did the first time, and that was that.

That's just the start of it, but I don't have the time to go on too much further. I get the feeling that Apple does things "different" just for the sake of saying they're different, and not out of logic, or to be efficient. I work 10 times faster on my Kubuntu box, and that's not exaggerating, nor is it because I'm simply used to the environment. OS X's environment isn't hard to figure out, and neither is doing things that IT wants you do do... And here's my biggest gripe..

OS X forces you to work within the confines of its structure and rules. It makes YOU work for IT, rather than having the OS work for YOU. On the first page of this thread, someone commented that Apple was just as greedy and monopolistic as MS, and I couldn't agree more. Seeing how things work with Apple, actually makes me think that they're even more greedy than MS simply because they've got "The Eye of the tiger". Apple wants that market share, and seems to be doing everything they can in order to lock their users into doing things their way, with very little choice otherwise.

iTunes is a shining example. Have an iPod ? Don't want to pay for some lousy unsupported third party app to manage your files ? Better love iTunes. Apple doesn't want you to use anything but iTunes etc.. Whatever. I'm just glad that Linux is around. If it weren't for programs such as Garage Band, Logic, Aperture 2 etc.. OS X would be TOTALLY redundant. Today's Linux is a godsend in comparison. I do all my cd/dvd ripping, burning on Linux. I do all my music listening and organization in Linux. When I want to do music editing, or get rid of ticks on vinyl or create music or nice photo journals, I'll use OSX. Other than that, it's all Linux.


Doug

[Frak]

Bought a Macbook Pro about a month ago. Here's what it boils down to for me:

For daily tasks, basic work flow environment and efficiency, Linux.............beats the pants off of OS X, hands down. I really thought that OS X was going to be a more streamlined and pretty version of my Ubuntu/Kubuntu flavors, but as it turns out, I curse OS X quite often when trying to do the most simple tasks.

First off: NO CUT AND PASTE FOR FILES AND FOLDERS ! ? What idiot (Steve Jobs) thought that was a good idea ? I read somewhere that apple thought it would confuse their users. So now Apple thinks of their user base as being retarded ? Then you get Apple defenders saying that dragging a file around winows is the same thing, and that "what if you forget to paste the file, it will be lost". Holy cow man, seriously ?

iTunes. Wow. Biggest crap pile I've ever seen. Not only is it insulting to not have Ogg/FLAC support out of the box, but when you finally add Ogg support via the xiph file, you still don't get your files with the correct tags, so all songs are totally out of order. Guess if it's not done with the ever so perfect (lock down tool) iTunes, the tags don't mean anything eh ?

Getting iTunes to seamlessly get files from an external HD is like asking for a miracle. I got it to work one time, but after iTunes made a TOTAL mess of my folder heirarchy, leaving me to clean it up (which took half an hour because of no cut/paste) I had to start over from scratch, but then it never refreshed the playlist database as it did the first time, and that was that.

That's just the start of it, but I don't have the time to go on too much further. I get the feeling that Apple does things "different" just for the sake of saying they're different, and not out of logic, or to be efficient. I work 10 times faster on my Kubuntu box, and that's not exaggerating, nor is it because I'm simply used to the environment. OS X's environment isn't hard to figure out, and neither is doing things that IT wants you do do... And here's my biggest gripe..

OS X forces you to work within the confines of its structure and rules. It makes YOU work for IT, rather than having the OS work for YOU. On the first page of this thread, someone commented that Apple was just as greedy and monopolistic as MS, and I couldn't agree more. Seeing how things work with Apple, actually makes me think that they're even more greedy than MS simply because they've got "The Eye of the tiger". Apple wants that market share, and seems to be doing everything they can in order to lock their users into doing things their way, with very little choice otherwise.

iTunes is a shining example. Have an iPod ? Don't want to pay for some lousy unsupported third party app to manage your files ? Better love iTunes. Apple doesn't want you to use anything but iTunes etc.. Whatever. I'm just glad that Linux is around. If it weren't for programs such as Garage Band, Logic, Aperture 2 etc.. OS X would be TOTALLY redundant. Today's Linux is a godsend in comparison. I do all my cd/dvd ripping, burning on Linux. I do all my music listening and organization in Linux. When I want to do music editing, or get rid of ticks on vinyl or create music or nice photo journals, I'll use OSX. Other than that, it's all Linux.


Doug
+1, I totally agree.

[decoherence]

Well, I will say, without hesitation, that I HATE Apple. I have been a user since System 7.1. I hated them then, but it was the ONLY platform that ran Photoshop and Illustrator. When Adobe started releasing solid versions of their software for NT4 I dropped the Mac like a ton of bricks. I thought NT4 was a great system. It ran programs. It didn't crash. Amazing!

OS X won me back for a while, and by and large I like Apple products (though i think some are an amazing rip-off.) But I still feel the same about the company: far worse than Microsoft in terms of strategically omitting certain functionality or even crippling software after the fact. They're smaller and they get away with a lot more.

That said, OS X (the client version) is a reasonably good system: simple to figure out and mostly virus free. I don't feel too bad about recommending it to people with the disposable income.

OS X Server, on the other hand, is the most buggy, over-engineered piece of horse poop I have ever had the misfortune to use. Having used it since Server 10.3 was introduced, I've found serious regressions in many updates. This latest one in 10.5, which appears to be a simple user interface bug, renders the system completely useless to me. Is there an alternative, less buggy interface I can use? Not that I've found. If there was, would I feel comfortable using it? No, as my reps have repeatedly cautioned me against using 3rd party software for management tasks. That gives me a great deal of confidence in the robustness of their system (not.)

Really. I could go on about Apple for a long time, so I'll just stop now.

[EnGorDiaz]

guys they have a intel chipped version of hacked macintosh now ad its legal its called osx86

[Frak]

guys they have a intel chipped version of hacked macintosh now ad its legal its called osx86
It depends

Use it inside the US - Illegal, always.
Other countries may disagree, but the only way to loop the US system is by being a certified Mac OS X developer with full developer rights.

Plus, the only thing OSx86 patches do is remove EFI and TPM loading. It runs natively on any range of hardware that OS X already loads on. The only issue would be changing the EFI dependent loading to BIOS loading, but since there is now an EFI emulator that can be installed to the boot sector, you can install OS X with a simple patch that removes TPM dependency and it will work with native apple updates.

Overall, its still a pretty advanced operation and it is still illegal for those that aren't certified to do so.

Wow, that was somewhat long-winded.

[mips]

Overall, its still a pretty advanced operation and it is still illegal for those that aren't certified to do so.


Advanced, definately not. Illegal, yes.

[NoSmokingBandit]

The official apple updates still mess up alot of installs os osx86 (just got done fixing mine after the 10.5.4 update) but for the most part its the same as an actual mac. If you have a working install of osx86 you can actually install Leopard from the official non-aptched disc on to another hard drive and remove the TPM stuff by hand so you have a 99.9% vanilla machine. Im too lazy to go through all the work for that though :)
Its completely illegal here in the US. The OSX EULA specifically states that leo cannot be installed on anything but apple's hardware. Im not sure what countries respect the EULA, but it really doesnt make a difference since people will do what they want anyway.

I, for one, like OSX. I use it for everything except gaming which i use XP Lite for. I dont hate windows, i just prefer a *nix OS. And i get the cool/nerd factor of osx86, lol. I will never buy an apple computer though. They are overpriced (yes you can argue this, but compared to the average price of non-apple lappy's, the macbook is outrageously priced), and i cant customize one the way i like.
I've never been an iPod fan, but i fear i might need to upgrade from my Creatve Labs Jukebox Zen Xtra (30gb) soon. My music collection is getting very close to 30gb and i cant stand the though of not having all of my music with me at once... Anyway, i digress. I might end up buying an iPod Classic (not the touch, they are cool but incredibly over-priced) because the refurb Classics are very well priced and have a 1-year warranty which is the same warranty as a new model (i think, i might be wrong). I dont enjoy the though of dealing with iTunes though. If i can find an 80gb Zune (with a manufacturers warrantee) for the same price as a refub iPod Classic i will be getting one of those. I like the giant screen and the fact that WMP11 is so much better than iTunes7.
If linux could run all of the programs i use on a daily basis (photoshop, Garageband (never will happen, lol) Guitar Pro (tux guitar doesnt cut it)) then i will swtich to a linux/xp set up without thinking twice.

[Frak]

ATM its legal until Snow-Leopard. The EULA says "do not install on a non-apple labeled computer", so technically, you could put an apple sticker on there and it becomes legal.

No joke, it went to court. I'll find the case in a bit. Apple just said they'd be more specific in the next release.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Dude, im am so putting an Apple sticker on the side of my computer. It would be sweet to have an apple sticker like those "made for windows" stickers they slap on laptops. :D

[mips]

No joke, it went to court. I'll find the case in a bit. Apple just said they'd be more specific in the next release.

Looking forward to the info.

[Frak]

Looking forward to the info.
I talked to Semthex about it, and he said it didn't go to court, but one of Apple's legal team alerted them that Apple logo certification (what the EULA tries to imply, a process of Apple to certify certain hardware/software for Mac/Universal compatibility) can be mistaken as an actual Apple Logo. Therefore the current Snow Leopard Developer Preview EULA has it clarified.

[NoSmokingBandit]

I wonder why Psystar got in trouble then? They built computers to be compatible with OsX86 and got sued by apple. Maybe there is a clause that prohibits people from advertising OsX on non-apple hardware or maybe they ran out of little white apple stickers....

[Frak]

I wonder why Psystar got in trouble then? They built computers to be compatible with OsX86 and got sued by apple. Maybe there is a clause that prohibits people from advertising OsX on non-apple hardware or maybe they ran out of little white apple stickers....
Even if the Terms weren't clear, Apple's a pretty power-hungry corporation, and they won't let anybody step on their turf. They will take to the law and prove that they were in the right.

[Macintosh Sauce]

I have been a Mac user ever since Commodore AMIGA went belly up. It was more natural for me to go to the Mac UI than the Windows UI.

Currently, I have a Mac Pro running Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard and I love it. With the RAM maxed out I can run Ubuntu in VMware Fusion and allocate half of my 16 GB RAM and one dual core Xeon processor to the virtual computer. Runs real nice too...

[lordhaworth]

I have owned windows and ubuntu and have used mac at university for the last couple of years so have ahd some experience with all. I'd say mac took me a while to get used to, and at first i didnt like it at all, but now i think its pretty good and i can do a fair few bits with it... if it werent for a few factors id have bought one already:

1) The cost : with the sum total of about 3 laptop varieties, and no competitors selling the same product (except 2nd hand) they seem to charge quite a bit for machines with not particularly impressive performance.

2) The features and Linux : I was considering getting a macbook for my dissertation (in fact the result of this decision was to get ubuntu! ! !), im doing physics and a bit of simulation work so windows doesnt really suffice - i've not found anything I need for this so far that I havnt got on ubuntu so its not like i really need it for anything in particular now

3) (Ok so this ones a bit petty) The marketing campaign : It looks pretty, you can create photo albums and use itunes - wow


I have a bit of a love hate relationship with macs I think you can see - theyre certainly not bad, just not for me to buy myself

[L815]

Here is my opinion of Mac & Apple.

I like Aqua, and I love the simplistic ideology of the OS.
BUT
I hate how Apple operates as a company, even more so than Microsoft. If only they allowed OSX to run on PC's, legally...

I understand why they do what they do, but I don't agree with it.

[handy]

Here is my opinion of Mac & Apple.

I like Aqua, and I love the simplistic ideology of the OS.
BUT
I hate how Apple operates as a company, even more so than Microsoft. If only they allowed OSX to run on PC's, legally...

I understand why they do what they do, but I don't agree with it.

From the start: Please don't get me wrong? I own an iMac running Leopard (amongst other things).

BUT:

When you say you love Aqua, can you define that?

Is it just the look that you love?

Do you love the way that the Finder works too?

Also, I am in total agreement with you with regards to the Apple corporations ethics/morals, they are also as selfish/greedy as their compatriots.

[kspncr]

Honestly, I like Apple. I think Leopard is a good OS.

[piju]

ya, im thinking about the same with you

[HokeyFry]

I love Macs. There are a lot of web development tools I love for it, and the interface is just so awesome. I also love the keyboard shortcuts and everything, and everything just works with no hassle. Sure they are expensive (which is why I don't own one of my own), but then again, there are a lot of people who are willing to pay so obviously the price isn't a huge issue to a lot of people. As far as the business practices of Apple go, yeah, in a lot of ways they are worse than Microsoft when it comes to certain things. However, unlike Microsoft, Apple does this very well, and the operating system is both stable and it has a large number of applications that look nice and the functionality of the programs makes you go OMG THIS IS AWESOME!!! So yeah, that's whjy I love Macs and Apple.

(Of course, Linux is just as awesome in so many other ways too, it's hard to choose which I like better)

[Markor]

If we talk about Freedom of choice, quality of choice and what you get for your time/money, Apple is MUCH worse company then Microsoft.

The main reason is because you can (legallly and supported) run Mac OS(X) ONLY on computers that Apple is selling!
Microsoft made its way to the mass public, by supporting thousands of big or small companies in their effort to make PC Compatible computers, parts an peripherals.
But what Apple was doing all the time since it begin to sell computers i the 80`s? He always wanted to promote its CLOSED software on CLOSED hardware with CLOSED file formats..
Linux and Windows runs on every PC today and it IS supported. But for OSX.. If Apple platform dies .. OSX goes with it.
The same thing Happend to old MacOS platform.

Therefore, I Choose Open file formats Using Multi platform Applications that run on Open and free (as in freedom) Operating system AND on Hardware platform that does NOT depends on only one hardware vendor.
Not to mention that using linux you can even choose Processor architecture that you see fit.

Therefore, As Much as Sun is wrong when he thinks that Opennes without GPL is enough, Microroft is Wrong when he thinks that more than one manufacturer for PC platform is enough, Apple is worse than its brother Microsoft becouse he enforces people to the Only ONE hardware vendor with closed source Operating system.
And THAT is sometning I don`t want to live with in 21`st century.
Therefore, Apple OSX SUCKS.
Apple is and iphone/ipod company. OSX/Macs are not their main product anymore. If Apple choose to support PC`s and not only Mac`s for OSX,
All we will get is that Apple will be on the same level of greediness with Microsoft, instead on lower level, where it is now.

I choose GNU/Linux distributions because on top of all freedom of choice we get from using it, I have multitude of vendors/types of Operating system itself to choose from.
Therefore, Future is made on GNU-Licensed Operating systems, programs and open document formats and standards.
Freedom list: (Freedom to choose, freedom of right to choose)
1. Multiple GNU Linux on multiple platforms ++++
2. Multiple BSD OS on multiple platforms +-++
3. Sun Open Solaris on few platforms --(+)(+)
4. Ms Closed Windblows on PC x86/64 platform ---- (+)
5. Apple Closed OSX on closed Apple platform. -----
Apple solution is the worst choice here.

[HokeyFry]

Okay, so Apple's business tactics are less than acceptable. But then again, I choose my software based on functionality, not the company's business practices. And as to your statement that Apple is the worst solution out there, what is that based on? If it's based solely on the fact that OSX is not a versatile operating system, that is pretty ignorant. You can't make a base statement like that without more facts to back up your argument. I personally love Macs because they are functional. I really could care less about Apple's business practices and whatnot as long as their product delivers, and that is what the basis of whether a product is good or not should be based on - functionality.

[nerd0795]

I've recently stopped by an Apple Store in Edmonton. I'm planning on getting a new computer soon, so I was thinking about buying a macbook. The place was very well organized. There were almost more staff then computers there. I found when I wanted to know some stuff, they were very friendly. I asked questions to somebody for about an hour and they didn't get annoyed by them. I have tried the macbook and the imac and I really want one of the two. I've never had that much fun using an Operating system before. I really like the look and feel of it. (I say somebody online bank on the the imac. That person did not delete there cookies or even log out. I would never online bank in a public place [-(

I liked the keyboard. I've asked some really complicated stuff to the staff, they knew most of it. I even learned you can run Mac os X in a virtulized environment if you buy the server version costing more then the mac I want. I've even had fun zooming in and out with the control + scroll trick lol.

Now I just have to save up for either a imac or a black macbook. The only draw back is I can't build my own mac. But whatever. Another thing is because alot of people are using the keyboards. I think I managed to catch a human virus lol :p Mac os x may not have (other then a few) viruses. But you can get human viruses :lolflag:

[HokeyFry]

Lol your Apple Genius' know what they are talking about? I confused the hell out of one of the techs at an Apple Store near my house and he had to call out to answer my question. Plus, he said that no version of OSX can run in a VM which I already knew the server version could so he was wrong. Essentially I just love going into that store to give them a mental headache.

[kool_kat_os]

I got a macbook pro last week and i LOVE it...

[luckyuser]

i got an ipod classic 80GB and I hate apple now. If they'll make iTunes w. windows support, why not make it for linux too (espically if they're gonna make it harder for 3rd party apps to add music to the library)?

[HokeyFry]

Lack of a decent market. Same reason nothing cool ever gets officially ported over to Linux :(

[handy]

Lack of a decent market. Same reason nothing cool ever gets officially ported over to Linux :(

UT2k4, the Quake's, Firefox, VLC is awesome & I dig NeroLinux.

I wouldn't say nothing cool ever gets officially ported over to Linux (distributions).

[SalsaDoom]

Well. I hate Apple more then I do Microsoft. I view Apple as a more sleazy version of Microsoft thats just less successful, but probably worse behaving. Apple's very good at marketing in some ways, they OS is very candy cane in my mind -- its not exactly awful, but I view OSX as a "toy OS" -- its poor performing and ultimately its only selling feature is that it comes on a computer that has a white case that some people think looks cool and "chic".

But thats essentially it. Apple sells to people who think having a "chic" computer is cool somehow. Personally, I don't see it -- computers where meant to do work, not look "chic". I mean, they are only even talking about the -case- even. The OS is pretty much the same as any other OS by appearances. Their hardware is essentially the same as the stuff you buy from your local computer shop for 1/3 the price.

Another thing -- Apple is just another company that wants your money and doesn't care what happens to you after you've given it to them. iPhone's and their fascist policies are good examples -- actually, Apple in generally is full of fascist policies, but Mac users seem to just be happy with having another company control their computer as long as they believe that company is benevolent. Doesn't really make sense. Its not giving you computing freedom, its just changing dictators -- the root problem remains.

And finally, the mac users themselves. I can't help but tie them in with the bongo-playing hippies that read lesbian seagull in the parks. Yet, like the best kinds of hippies, these particular sorts of hippies are the hippies with money, who recycle things without understanding the economics involved, and essentially believe that they are "thinking different" somehow by buying into someone elses marketing. Just thinking about these "people" makes me gorge rise. Bleh.

Maddox can help explain too. Something that PC's can do that Macs can't. (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant) Be sure to read his quips about the iPhone too.

:)

[handy]

Apple lead the way.

MS has always been following Apple.

MS' first program was Excel for Apple.

Apple are primarily a hardware manufacturer who attempt to make their accompanying software innovative, visually appealing & as simple as possible for the user. They have successfully marketed to the youth of the world, which is a very smart thing to do with regard to profit. When you get someone when they are young, they are more likely to stay with you, as, as we get older we find change harder - old dogs & new tricks...

I read that statistically (sorry I don't have a link) Apple OS users are far more likely to learn another program than the users of any other OS, which is due to the Apple OS being more consistent than the others which plays a part in the previously mentioned implementation of simplicity. I personally know that OS-X is far from perfect, & that is not what I am saying.

I own an iMac, for the reasons that it suits my purposes & my desk space, (which runs two computers). On this iMac I use both Leopard & Arch (in many ways they are the two opposites in the world of the OS). In the past I was a sole trader, who specialized in repairing both the hardware & software/OS of computers. I had business & private clients & successfully ran my business for ten years until I retired. I very rarely worked on anything other than computers running one of the Windows OS's.

So to sum up, I say that from my experiences that have been spread out over the AmigaOS's, various Windows versions, multitudes of Linux distro's, Mac Classic/OS-X's, PC-BSD, Solaris & other little used OS's, they all have their strengths & weaknesses, we are lucky to have so many choices, all of them keep improving (currently Windows Vista may be an exception to that statement :-)). Some Mac users may be trendies, some users of whatever Linux distro' may be elitists, some users of the Windows environment may only use their computer to get whatever the job is that they need to get done & don't care a hoot about computers, computing or what an OS is. Full stop.

Who has the right to judge other computer users by their own standards?

Use whatever you choose for whatever reason you choose, & don't give two hoots about what anyone else thinks about it.

& as far as dooming any business because it chooses to be profitable is concerned, that argument just doesn't cut it. Take MS & Apple out of the discussion & look at the hardware giants involved in the computer industry; IBM, Intel, HP, Sun, nVidia, AMD/ATi, Sony, Philips, VIA, Motorola, & so many more; most of these companies aren't in your face like Apple & MS are, they do their dealings in closed meetings, they don't have the need to appeal to the individual consumer as does Apple in particular. Apple have developed a marketing strategy that works. If they see one that works better they will use it, that is what corporations do. If you are against the corporate run world in general (as in my heart I am) that would make far more sense than just picking on one corporation who's marketing offends you which is obviously compounded by the fact that some young trendies have been influenced by it, which irritates you...

[HokeyFry]

I agree that Apple is worse than Microsoft. But, I have never had an issue with Apple products in terms of functionality, and as long as their products continue to not suck, I will support them and buy their products.

[d_skillz]

OSX is by far the most gorgeous looking "stock os". No tweaking, no additional customizations, out of the box beautiful. Unfortunately for Apple we dont just use OSs based on their looks, they certainly are better than a windows box. Main problem is their business model locking up hardware development and restricting software innovations over the last ten years, mostly Adobe are the only few who have successful software running on Macs. Do not stifle development, you have to find a way to make things profitable but not so restrictive. No way that model is going to last forever even if they make great products they aren't competitive.

Bottom Line
Overriced
Restrictive Use
Poor business model

If only linux distros would team up to make one great OS instead of this plethora of distributions, coupled with SERIOUS applications for webdesign and multimedia they would seriously make headway into the OS market. My two Cents

[timmillwood]

I am a big big apple and Mac OS X fan, but thinking of switching to Dell & Ubuntu to get better value.

[aysiu]

I've moved some of the off-topic discussion to this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=909521).

[mrblue182]

Quite simple actually.

They blackbox their computers. Imagine if Apple was the dominant computer. Hardware vendors would be severely lacking in a customer base, and it would become much more expensive to customize your computer.you would HAVE to use apple products.

Oh, and that and that iTunes for windows (gasp, I didn't put the $ instead of the s) is the worst piece of software, and is designed so that windows users will think that windows is incredibly slow, and that macs are infinitely better.

PS
incase you're wondering, I dualboot ubuntu and windows xp, and I haven't gotten the bsod in years.

[handy]

Quite simple actually.

They blackbox their computers. Imagine if Apple was the dominant computer. Hardware vendors would be severely lacking in a customer base, and it would become much more expensive to customize your computer.you would HAVE to use apple products.

I kind of agree with you. Though the need to use Apple products has diminished somewhat; at least you don't have to spend $125- on an Apple printer cable so as to use a non Apple printer these days.

I do think that if Apple had the market share of MS, the freedom we know under the FOSS licensing system would be under more of a threat than it is now.

There would also be far less hardware innovation, as Apple are primarily a hardware company, without competition, they would do just exactly what suits them with regard to being profitable. They would not go down the costly road of innovation any further than the market demands.

[nerd0795]

If only linux distros would team up to make one great OS instead of this plethora of distributions, coupled with SERIOUS applications for webdesign and multimedia they would seriously make headway into the OS market. My two Cents

Actually if that happened, that would take out the best part of linux. It can suit your needs. (OMG LOL my keyboard is controlling me, I just typed Halo sucks, and I like halo...) Anyways you will need competition within the distro's to push the programmers, to innovating.

My three cents.

[Kronie]

I hate apple because they got opensource platform. modified a name, and put a fkin price-tag on it. Their hardware is overpriced, the thing about "apple is more stable than pc" is just a bunch of bull. its just an os "for n00bs" who use their $2000 xenon apple computer for email, myspace and utube. and who really think that any other OS is just slower than mac...

[handy]

I hate apple because they got opensource platform. modified a name, and put a fkin price-tag on it. Their hardware is overpriced, the thing about "apple is more stable than pc" is just a bunch of bull. its just an os "for n00bs" who use their $2000 xenon apple computer for email, myspace and utube. and who really think that any other OS is just slower than mac...

No, you are wrong & making statements that sound immature & thoughtless. Most computer users don't care about the technology, hardware or software, they just want to get the job done as expediently as possible. Apple's OS-X does that far better than MS's current mess, BUT you have to buy the hardware from Apple to get the software to suit. Apple like the Linux based distro's & the BSD's doesn't have the client base to attract as many software manufacturers, so many people are forced to use the MS OS due to their software requirements.

We can bitch_&_moan about the corporate philosophy of those involved in the computer industry all we like, we are still all caught in the catch22 of computer use, as there are many mega corporations involved in the production of the hardware involved in every computer, & all any of them care about is the bottom line of profit for their directors & shareholders.

As I have stated previously in this thread, Apple, much more so than MS, require an in your face marketing strategy to counter MS's domination of Apple's hardware competition.

Like it or lump it, it is purely marketroid business, aimed firstly at survival, & secondly it is aimed at making the most profit for all concerned - directors & shareholders.

Most corporate entities would adulterate the water we drink to make a bigger profit. (Of course they would provide all those associated with the company with appropriate water filters with the annual report!)

[JetskiDude911]

I love OS X. For the past two and half years my main computer has been a Mac. I just fell in love with the interface and how everything just seems to work. It's nice to just sit down and be able to work without fighting with the operating system. Don't get me wrong, OS X isn't flawless and doesn't always work correctly without a little bit of work, but it's been much better than Windows for me.

I started using OS X when I got my current job. At the time, I could use either Windows XP or Mac OS X as my main operating system. I had been using Windows XP for years, so I decided to try OS X for a change.

[tarvtarv]

If you take the raw speed and power of linux and give it 100% functionallity and support, there you have OS/X

I gave some if the image editing tools a try the other day in the shop

Very powerfull stuff!

Its linux that just works!, Hence the price tag

[handy]

If you take the raw speed and power of linux and give it 100% functionallity and support, there you have OS/X

I gave some if the image editing tools a try the other day in the shop

Very powerfull stuff!

Its linux that just works!, Hence the price tag

Apple (the hardware manufacturing company) makes software for its products with ease of use, functionality, beauty (there is no accounting for taste) & financial profit, in mind. Due to the combination of the above factors being governed by the need for profit, OSX, is a long way from being like the Linux kernel based distributions.

Linux is FOSS, Apple's products are not; to the point of much of OSX being hidden & inaccessible to the license holder.

I dual boot Arch & Leopard on my iMac, I find Arch to be noticeably faster. Arch is the opposite of OSX, in the user control & freedom stakes. Apple has more commercial software available, for those that need it, I don't.

[linux5uper]

Linux is FOSS, Apple's products are not; to the point of much of OSX being hidden & inaccessible to the license holder.


Exactly! I wouldn't say OSX is just like linux, but with commercial support. Any distro of linux has more raw power from the start, by virtue of being open and customizable, so you can basically build it from scratch any way you see fit.

Now if this monster would gain commercial support, Windows & OSX would be on the list of endangered species.

[pey]

Hi! I have a Mac, i don't regred his OS is just fascinating,but it is not "Open Source" I would never compare to windouz wich i consider is mainly for kids, due to everything is done with a clikc" no ofense . I'm also using ubuntu on my 3rd computer and i like it very much.Back to Mac it would be a hit if most of there hardware & software were free. ThanKs!

[ultranoize]

I just bought a mac. And to be honest I'm pleased. Actually I'm more than pleased, I love it. The reason why I bought it is simple. There are no Linux pre-installed machines here in Denmark. It is therefore just fair to say that the best Linux machine I could buy was an overpriced, closed sourced UNIX ******* son. Just for the record I'm posting this from my 6 year old dell laptop running xubuntu (which in principle is the machine I am replacing with the mac).

[DeadSuperHero]

I really enjoy OSX. I have Leopard running on a Hackintosh, and while not everything works (*shakes fist at Adobe Photoshop CS3 and Cider*) most of it runs well enough for daily use. I really like:

-The way most .dmg's have a drag-able image that you pull to the applications folder, and it installs. Neat.

-The layout of everything. Simple.

-The nifty little animations, which I find pleasantly amusing.

-And most importantly, drag and drop support is amazing. I can drag a torrent file on top of Transmission, it'll start up, and start downloading the torrent. Awesome.

[NoSmokingBandit]

-And most importantly, drag and drop support is amazing. I can drag a torrent file on top of Transmission, it'll start up, and start downloading the torrent. Awesome.

Idk if any linux distro does that, but i know windows will do the same thing if you drop a file on a program. Apps in windows are a bit more of a pain to navigate to though.

[Unanimated]

Well, I don't have anything against Apple. I think they make really cool and innovative products. The only thing I don't like is OS X Tiger. Least favorite OS ever. I was actually thinking about buying a Mac Mini for a while, but then I downloaded Ubuntu and that all changed.

[[z]er0 HP]

Only reasons i don't like apple is their limited support for ipod on linux
and that the iphone is so ******* expensive

[Baza210]

I think Apple are great. I've used OSX for about 5 years now, and when I got my latest [Windows, because I'm poor] laptop, it really was frustrating to change back to Windows. I've put Ubuntu on here too, but even that is nowhere close. OSX just has some very intuitive things that you don't notice until they're missing.. a folder opening when you hover a dragged file over it, for example.

[Canis familiaris]

An Interesting and Worth Try OS which I would never get the chance to use because I can't afford it/don't want to spend extra bucks for it.

[cprofitt]

I have now been 'forced' to use OS X for about five months.

Desktop:
To be honest the features I found myself liking are all available in Linux so there is little here that would make me want to buy a Mac. At this point even if OS X was available for non-Apple TPM computers I would not see any advantage to purchasing the OS.

The manner in which Apple stores it's shares is bizarre to say the least. From the plist files I have seen it does not store the server name, just the share name. This causes problems if you have the same share name on two different servers. While this would seem to be a planning issue to some I would have to disagree; there is no way a plist should not store the server name.

The default auto-login feature (yes, it can be disabled - then again the same can be done in Windows) is insecure. The prompts to do administrative tasks happen with roughly the same frequency as with Windows Vista, but they at least ask for you password instead of a simple 'click the button' response that Vista asks for. The Apple ad seems to play on the Vista mechanism being annoying and the Apple mechanism is more annoying; the ad is clearly a distortion, but the feature is more secure.

Server:
On the server side of things Apple has a product that is a cross between NT4 and Windows 2000 for usability and function. OD is just not ready to be used outside of the small office/work group setting yet. Apple may catch up like Microsoft did with AD when Netware NDS ruled the Directory Service world, but given Apple's focus on consumer end bling I would doubt it.

The GUI controls on the server are incomplete and using ARD to the server (brand new this summer server setup by an Apple Engineer) tends to lock ARD up so you can not connect a second time. Apple gets points for the fact that I can SSH in and reset things though.

The Company:
I personally think Apple is far worse than Microsoft because of its anti-consumer practices. Sure, they make nice stuff but they lock consumers in. If Apple ever gets a dominant posistion in computers that would be a very bad thing for computing.

[MikeTheC]

I've a friend who sees Apple as being "worse" than Microsoft for the reasons PrivateVoid stated; however, I have to put this down to a difference in perspective, a la Democrats vs. Republicans.

Apple was the only significant competition for Microsoft for the longest time, and the only significant driving factor for Microsoft to make what improvements they have in their OS line-up. For that, in truth everyone in the tech industry owes Apple at least some degree of gratitude. And whether or not they want to admit it, that includes Linux users as well. After all, while it's obviously not a verbatim copy, look at how much the various Linux GUI environments share in common with Mac OS. (And yes, it also shares a number of things in common with Windows, too. But please, don't anyone repeat that too loudly in this thread. Thank you. :) )

Does this mean Apple can do no wrong, or that they walk on water? Hardly.

What I think a lot of people, here and elsewhere, seem not to understand is that Apple had every opportunity in the world, back in the day, to put themselves where Microsoft is now. This was both with and without Steve Jobs as an employee. Even now, Steve could put Apple in the same position as Microsoft, especially in the media distribution market (think songs and videos via iTMS) but, unlike Microsoft with their scare tactics, FUD, and so on, Apple's gotten the iPod and iTMS where it is based on the fact that, at the end of the day, they've made products people desire strongly, and obviously keep on desiring. Trends and fads only last so long, especially in the tech world; arguably the iPod platform and iTMS have out-lived that sort of period of time.

This is not to try to white-wash over what have certainly been strong sales tactics jobs done by Steve, et al, in meetings with the various labels and networks. I'm certain that has taken place. But again, strong-arming only works up to a point; after that, the success or failure of a company's efforts is based on whether they demonstrate some degree of value to the customer base.

There's two ways of doing that. First is the Microsoft way, where you corral all the big players into playing ball with you, and then deliberately squeeze out all other competition (to whatever extent it exists), and then force everyone else -- the general public included -- to adopt your company's products on the theory (which may or may not be true) that "there's no other choice". The second is to put out a product range which, when the public (both businesses and home users) is exposed to them, are well liked, and therefore succeed on their own merits.

Clearly, it's been demonstrated that there's a significant number of people out there who like what Apple puts out. The fact that they can say "Yes, I know there are other options, but I don't want to use them." is significant and should not, in my opinion, be lightly discounted.

Of course, the flip side to all this is the extent to which Mac OS X users benefit from the efforts of the F/OSS community, a fact which I frequently remind Mac users of.

[cardinals_fan]

After all, while it's obviously not a verbatim copy, look at how much the various Linux GUI environments share in common with Mac OS. (And yes, it also shares a number of things in common with Windows, too. But please, don't anyone repeat that too loudly in this thread. Thank you. :) )
Maybe you should take a look at dwm ;)

What I think a lot of people, here and elsewhere, seem not to understand is that Apple had every opportunity in the world, back in the day, to put themselves where Microsoft is now. This was both with and without Steve Jobs as an employee. Even now, Steve could put Apple in the same position as Microsoft, especially in the media distribution market (think songs and videos via iTMS) but, unlike Microsoft with their scare tactics, FUD, and so on, Apple's gotten the iPod and iTMS where it is based on the fact that, at the end of the day, they've made products people desire strongly, and obviously keep on desiring. Trends and fads only last so long, especially in the tech world; arguably the iPod platform and iTMS have out-lived that sort of period of time.

I dislike Apple because they:

a) make products that I feel are overpriced, difficult to use, and locked in
b) have almost every part of their software DRMed/locked down

If they decided to gain customers through misleading advertising rather than strongarming OEMs, I don't really care.

[handy]

I've a friend who sees Apple as being "worse" than Microsoft for the reasons PrivateVoid stated; however, I have to put this down to a difference in perspective, a la Democrats vs. Republicans.


Please give us your U.S. description of why it fits your simple U.S. view of the politics of the world?


Apple was the only significant competition for Microsoft for the longest time, and the only significant driving factor for Microsoft to make what improvements they have in their OS line-up.

Apple's OS is what MS has always been inspired by. Have a little look at history & you will very quickly see that MS follows Apple all the way.

The difference between the two companies is that 1. (MS) is very good at making money, & 2. Apple is very good at being creative.

Apple knows that it does not need to become the predominant OS on the planet, nor does it need to sell a larger amount of computers than it does now. Apple does very well out of its peripherals; meaning iPods & iPhones, iTunes sales & on it goes.

Apple has come from behind in the marketroid stakes to being so far in front it is not funny in the internet music market, the hardware sales of personal music players & now personal multimedia/internet connected portable telephones; in comparison to MS. Apple has no problem now in relation to MS, as Apple have created & now dominate a market that MS can not ever compete in, no matter how much money they throw at the problem.

For that, in truth everyone in the tech industry owes Apple at least some degree of gratitude, if only due to the fact that it is Apple & not MS in the same position.

Does this mean Apple can do no wrong, or that they walk on water? Hardly.

What I think a lot of people, here and elsewhere, seem not to understand is that Apple had every opportunity in the world, back in the day, to put themselves where Microsoft is now. This was both with and without Steve Jobs as an employee. Even now, Steve could put Apple in the same position as Microsoft, especially in the media distribution market (think songs and videos via iTMS) but, unlike Microsoft with their scare tactics, FUD, and so on, Apple's gotten the iPod and iTMS where it is based on the fact that, at the end of the day, they've made products people desire strongly, and obviously keep on desiring. Trends and fads only last so long, especially in the tech world; arguably the iPod platform and iTMS have out-lived that sort of period of time.

This is not to try to white-wash over what have certainly been strong sales tactics jobs done by Steve, et al, in meetings with the various labels and networks. I'm certain that has taken place. But again, strong-arming only works up to a point; after that, the success or failure of a company's efforts is based on whether they demonstrate some degree of value to the customer base.

There's two ways of doing that. First is the Microsoft way, where you corral all the big players into playing ball with you, and then deliberately squeeze out all other competition (to whatever extent it exists), and then force everyone else -- the general public included -- to adopt your company's products on the theory (which may or may not be true) that "there's no other choice". The second is to put out a product range which, when the public (both businesses and home users) is exposed to them, are well liked, and therefore succeed on their own merits.

Clearly, it's been demonstrated that there's a significant number of people out there who like what Apple puts out. The fact that they can say "Yes, I know there are other options, but I don't want to use them." is significant and should not, in my opinion, be lightly discounted.

[Lord C]

I've never been a hater of Apple. I have gone through stages on not liking them, but I have also come to like them a lot recently - they make a lot of nice devices.

But right now. I cannot stand the company. I really dislike their ethics.

If I buy an iPhone/iPod, I shouldn't have to use their bulky mp3 player, in order to transfer mp3s to my device. 99% of mp3 players offer simple drag/drop options lol. Why can't Apple?

Because they want to lock all their users into the iTunes Store - to make more money.
I don't buy music from the iTunes store, and I never will. I don't use Windows or Mac OS X either.
So there should be an option for me to use a damn iPhone/iPod on my Free Operating System.

[NoSmokingBandit]

So there should be an option for me to use a damn iPhone/iPod on my Free Operating System.

Apple only has to give you the options they feel like giving you. A little pre-purchasing research would tell you that apple doesnt give a crap about any free os. And if you didnt look that up before buying those items then it is only your own fault.

[Frak]

Apple only has to give you the options they feel like giving you. A little pre-purchasing research would tell you that apple doesnt give a crap about any free os. And if you didnt look that up before buying those items then it is only your own fault.
Some lot of Apple OS (Darwin backend of Mac OS X) is open source.
http://www.apple.com/opensource/

[handy]

I've never been a hater of Apple. I have gone through stages on not liking them, but I have also come to like them a lot recently - they make a lot of nice devices.

But right now. I cannot stand the company. I really dislike their ethics.

If I buy an iPhone/iPod, I shouldn't have to use their bulky mp3 player, in order to transfer mp3s to my device. 99% of mp3 players offer simple drag/drop options lol. Why can't Apple?

Because they want to lock all their users into the iTunes Store - to make more money.
I don't buy music from the iTunes store, and I never will. I don't use Windows or Mac OS X either.
So there should be an option for me to use a damn iPhone/iPod on my Free Operating System.

I totally agree with you.

Apple's lock-in sucks big time. Their marketing practices set an extreme example to those of us who dislike such mental manipulation.

Unfortunately, the marketroids who desire results, which I'll define as the need to feather their own nests, see Apple's self promotion as an ideal to be striven for in their own professional experience.

This is to varying degrees the crap that we have to live with every time we walk into any shop any time of the day, anywhere in the world. (from my experience anyway)

By the way, I don't HATE Apple, or anything for that matter.

Thankfully, I don't know the emotion.

[rubycin]

It is cool. But it is not easy to use.

[Frak]

I totally agree with you.

Apple's lock-in sucks big time. Their marketing practices set an extreme example to those of us who dislike such mental manipulation.

Unfortunately, the marketroids who desire results, which I'll define as the need to feather their own nests, see Apple's self promotion as an ideal to be striven for in their own professional experience.

This is to varying degrees the crap that we have to live with every time we walk into any shop any time of the day, anywhere in the world. (from my experience anyway)

By the way, I don't HATE Apple, or anything for that matter.

Thankfully, I don't know the emotion.
I believe in Psystar's countersuit, it involves lock-in's as an illegal trade. If they win, Apple will have to a. Stop charging for upgrades/updates of Mac OS X b. Allow all hardware to run OS X or c. stop using/making OS X altogether.

[handy]

I believe in Psystar's countersuit, it involves lock-in's as an illegal trade. If they win, Apple will have to a. Stop charging for upgrades/updates of Mac OS X b. Allow all hardware to run OS X or c. stop using/making OS X altogether.

Have you seen this:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080829184018767

Also this thread is very interesting:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=804499

[MikeTheC]

Please give us your U.S. description of why it fits your simple U.S. view of the politics of the world?
Ok, liberals and conservatives. Is that better? I have no interest in arguing politics with you or anyone else on this board. This isn't the place for it -- this is a Ubuntu Linux message board.

The rest of your post being in obvious agreement with mine, I'll simply coast along knowing we concur.

[MikeTheC]

FRAK, et al...

Can we please stop this whole legal opinion thing? From the perspective of a U.S. lawyer (which would be the only relevant point-of-view) none of us here know what the hell we're talking about.

Vis a vis the Psystar / Apple thing, let's simply consider the notion that what Psystar is really interested in is reaching a market segment Apple isn't targeting, and that's the mid-range PC enthusiast. Psystar is in no way seriously targeting the MacPro, nor is it targeting the Mac mini. And whether their actions were legal or not, at the end of the day they're both in this for the money.

Then again, in a way, so is EFI-X, in selling a what -- $150? $175? -- "internal USB" dongle to let PC-building enthusiasts have relatively unfettered access to Mac OS X.

[Lord C]

I think Psystar have a very valid point, that'll probably stand up in court.

I don't however agree with MTheC, that unless we're a qualified Lawywer we should shutup, lol. If someone has an opinion on the subject I see no problem in them raising it.

Even lawyers don't always know what they're talking about >:P

[MikeTheC]

Lord C:

I think there's been ample evidence from several public commentary sources (i.e.: message boards) that the general public doesn't understand the difference between civil and criminal law, often referring to acts of breaking a EULA as being "illegal" when clearly, at least in most countries, they're not. And given the opinions stated which are obviously then predicated and built upon such misapprehensions as those, it's hard to come away with anything other than the opinion that many -- if indeed not most -- people don't really have any clue what they're talking about.

You're right to say we're all free to our own opinions, and it would also absolutely be true to say one demonstrates one's intelligence or ignorance in the process of giving voice to those opinions. It's just I'm a bit tired of wading hip deep through the muck of ignorance and investigative apathy.

In short:

Breaking Apple's EULA itself is not illegal. Doing things which may happen to go against parts of their EULA which by chance happen to also be against the law are illegal. But that's simply a coincidence. In the U.S., thanks to the DMCA, doing things which allow someone to violate another's copyright, trademark or patent can be found to be illegal themselves. Therefore, the OSX86 Community's efforts could in theory be found to be illegal under DMCA, but not under any strict basis of violating the EULA. EFI-X's product could possibly also be found to violate DMCA law, but as the maker is outside of the U.S., it would be hard to do more than put a halt on shipments of their product into the U.S.

Do I think that Apple overcharges for the hardware they sell? Yes. Do I think Apple has the right to charge for their efforts at system and case and cosmetic design? Absolutely. But there also comes a point where the market may or may not bear the expense. However, all of this posturing aside, and complaints from "the masses" in the computer world aside as well, clearly Apple is doing awesome business and seems in no way in immediate danger of going out of business.

[Frak]

TheMikeC

Fair Use in the United States of America allows the OSx86 project to live and for people to use OS X on their PC's, if and only if, it is used on the basis of education.

Ta-da! Loophole.

EDIT
As for EFI-X, all it is, is a device that allows you to run OS's from an external EFI-chip, not illegal whatsoever.

[handy]

@MikeTheC: I'll post this again for your benefit:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080829184018767

[Edit:]

These two are also related to the topic of Psystar, very interesting info' I find:

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080831104451947&query=psystar

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20080903082827766&query=psystar

[HacDan]

I have to ask the OP if he is infact his avatar. This seems like a post that should end in
"FLAME ON!!!"
lol

and obviously the flaming has started. Personally I hold no prejudice against Apple, but the last system I used of theirs besides my Ipod was System 7 so I suppose I'm a bit behind the times...

[handy]

I have to ask the OP if he is infact his avatar. This seems like a post that should end in
"FLAME ON!!!"
lol

Some people seem to get emotional about the subject, though many of us state our views in the hope it is of benefit to someone, & if not, who cares? (Admittedly we all can have our off days for whatever reason & not be as kind as we would normally be.)

There is no need to call the fire brigade here.

[HacDan]

There is no need to call the fire brigade here.

It just seemed as the OP was asking for replies not of good nature, I know most of this thread did not turn out that way as us Ubuntu folk are of the peaceful kind. If the post had stated what us GNU/Linux folks thought of Apple/OS X then it would have been a different story, but assuming we all hated Apple and their products is asking for a debate of obviously great magnitude.

[handy]

It just seemed as the OP was asking for replies not of good nature, I know most of this thread did not turn out that way as us Ubuntu folk are of the peaceful kind.

I agree, the OP does seem to have been intending to stir up some flames way back then in February 2006.

[TeoK]

I am a bit curious to know why most Linux users dislike Apple even worse than Microsoft. Is it because all of their hardware and software is not 100% free and Open Source and stealable, or is it because they have Microsoft support, or they own the most popular UNIX derivative and "are taking up our UNIX space"? :confused:

this is total nonsense in my opinion.
myself, I've owned Mac for years and I think it's smart, easy, beautifully implemented OS.
For last 2 years I've been using Ubuntu, exclusively though...mostly because of costs and to get 'unplug' from mega companies. Open source is the only way to go if you don't want to be spied on.

I'm sticking with Ubuntu and not going back to Apple anytime soon despite that they have gorgeous products.

One note:
Apple laptops are quite delicate as few of my friends found out recently - I'll take rock solid Ubuntu on tank-like Thinkpad any day.

[veiho]

Because macos is task-oriented and those tasks are not abstract enought, but tries to emulate some real world task models. IMHO an operating system or any software should not do that, because it makes working with computer really inefficient.
Maybe macos is good for non-technical people, for example artists, designers, musicians and so on - for all ordinary dumbusers. But it's (GUI) awfully painful for powerusers.
And there are also problems with font rendering, window manager configuration flexibility, screen usage efficiency and so on.
Still I'm not advocating against Aplle, just expressing my own opinion about their operating system. I like Apples hardware design.

[Pharohs]

I love the way that Mac apps are installed. Very simple for the user (especially "for all ordinary dumbusers"), no real mysteries, and you can easily see what you have. I can only hope that Linux will be so transparent one day. I can never tell what I'm doing in Linux, it's all so cryptic. There are vast repositories of packages which, I can't search. I have to rely on word of mouth to find out what is there. It's awful. Linux may be free, but it is very stressful. Apple usually "just works", like they say. It may come as a surprise to many of you out there, but some of us were not born with a complete, encyclopedic knowledge of Linux, we "dumbusers" must struggle along and try to learn, under the derisive gaze of the most learned gurus of Linux. Pardon, us for breathing.

Perfect example: After two weeks of research and trial and error, I still can't see flash video on my Ubuntu machine. Even though it is common on the internet. Why is that? Why is it so darn hard to make this work? Is it because I'm a "dumbuser", genetically inferior to the uber gurus?

[handy]

I love the way that Mac apps are installed. Very simple for the user (especially "for all ordinary dumbusers", no real mysteries, and you can easily see what you have.)

Me too, though sometimes the installation spreads into places that you are not aware of unless you have a thorough & extended look.


I can only hope that Linux will be so transparent one day. I can never tell what I'm doing in Linux, it's all so cryptic. There are vast repositories of packages which, I can't search. I have to rely on word of mouth to find out what is there. It's awful. Linux may be free, but it is very stressful. Apple usually "just works", like they say. It may come as a surprise to many of you out there, but some of us were not born with a complete, encyclopedic knowledge of Linux, we "dumbusers" must struggle along and try to learn, under the derisive gaze of the most learned gurus of Linux. Pardon, us for breathing.

Much of OSX is hidden, you can only access it through specialized software.

Nothing is hidden in Linux kernel based distributions due to the license.


Perfect example: After two weeks of research and trial and error, I still can't see flash video on my Ubuntu machine. Even though it is common on the internet. Why is that? Why is it so darn hard to make this work? Is it because I'm a "dumbuser", genetically inferior to the uber gurus?

It is due to the closed source licensing of Flash, that it can not be included in Ubuntu.

Your skin is a little thin I think. Caring about what others think or say whether thoughtlessly or to aggrandize their own ego is a total waste of time & energy. :-)

[davbren]

just my 2 cents. Theres a lot to read through so I'm sure this has probably been said before.

I see no reason to spend the money on the apple system. I also see no reason to use hackintosh unless you are just that way inclined. IMHO if you want to use mac then buy a mac.

As far as usability is concerned I can't see the advantages over say Ubuntu, Ok it doesn't run on every system but its never going to. Maybe they should take a leaf out of Apple's book and make some custom hardware. I used to be a Windows user, I would defend it until I was "Royale" in the face. Now though I would recommend Mac instead of windows if the person rejected the idea of Linux. I personally am not partial to OSX. In fact I think leopard isn't as good as Tiger. Its almost a bit "Vista-ish" in its eye-candy over substance approach. The dock, although pretty, seems a little silly now. At least to me. I'm trying not to use my Ubuntu like windows, i.e. using the file manager for everything. Theres no need to when there are programs designed to do it. I think that this is very much the philosophy of Apple, (well I hope it is coz it would explain how dire finder is lol).

Mac certainly has its place in the market. I'm not sure of its advantages though. Ubuntu is certainly ready for regular use for the masses as long as it is set up before the system is bought. The same can be said for Windows and Mac. I was very close to buying a mac this summer before buying my laptop. Their marketing is very good but I decided that I'd miss Ubuntu too much. I didn't see the worth of buying a mac if i wasn't going to use the OS. The integration in mac is very good (for the most part) as is the range of commercial products.

whaddya think??

[mikjp]

I have an iBook (600 MHz) with Debian 4.0 installed :guitar:

mikko

[CholericKoala]

I have been a Windows user for many years, and have been using Ubuntu on the side for awhile. Windows has a buttload of 3rd party support and rightfully has a buttload of marketshare. Ubuntu is an awesome OS with an awesome community. I like how unbiased many of the users are. A few of my friends are OSX users and we get along just fine because we aren't blindly following our OS or blindly hating the other. I've never tried out OSX because it has no use for me. It's expensive and doesn't have the programs I need. Ubuntu is proving to have many of the things I need (including an awesome community that has already helped me through several problems).

If there is anything I hate, it is ignorant Windows, OSX, or Linux users who say that one thing is better than another for x reason. They all have their uses, and the most respectable OS is the one that has the most respectable community imho.

[Dojan5]

I like Macintosh. It is stable etc. It is a little like Linux for beginners.
I mean, I prefer Linux, I do, but there's nothing wrong with Mac or Windows other than that you have less freedom.
You can do pretty much anything with Linux, without breaking any EULA's or Lisences...

[neurosis]

Because macos is task-oriented and those tasks are not abstract enought, but tries to emulate some real world task models. IMHO an operating system or any software should not do that, because it makes working with computer really inefficient.
Maybe macos is good for non-technical people, for example artists, designers, musicians and so on - for all ordinary dumbusers. But it's (GUI) awfully painful for powerusers.
And there are also problems with font rendering, window manager configuration flexibility, screen usage efficiency and so on.
Still I'm not advocating against Aplle, just expressing my own opinion about their operating system. I like Apples hardware design.

I own both a MacBook Pro and an Ubuntu desktop, and a few Linux servers. I really don't see any truth in your post at all, being a poweruser on both platforms. There's nothing preventing me from dropping to a terminal in OS X and accessing the same command-line tools I'm comfortable with in Linux. I actually prefer the task-oriented design focus - if 90% of the time I'm going to perform a task in a given way and the software is optimized for that, great. For the most part, I have access to the tools to customize my workflow for the remaining 10% of the use-cases that demand it.

Beware your narrow-minded categorization of people (re: "dumbusers" - there are plenty of highly technical artists and musicians, in fact, some people do more than one thing!) - lest you be judged yourself (ie: naive, socially inept geek in Mom's basement, etc.).

[3rdalbum]

Perfect example: After two weeks of research and trial and error, I still can't see flash video on my Ubuntu machine. Even though it is common on the internet. Why is that?

It's because you haven't gone to Synaptic Package Manager and done a search for "flash". That would bring up "flashplugin-nonfree".* After installing that, start up your Firefox and you'll have Flash support.

If you change the search from Name to Description And Name, you can just type in some keywords of the sort of thing you're looking for (like "Bittorrent client" or something) and the programs will pop up.

(*Assuming you're not on a PowerPC Macintosh. Adobe doesn't make Flash Player for PowerPC. Not our fault, their fault).

[CholericKoala]

It's because you haven't gone to Synaptic Package Manager and done a search for "flash". That would bring up "flashplugin-nonfree".* After installing that, start up your Firefox and you'll have Flash support.

If you change the search from Name to Description And Name, you can just type in some keywords of the sort of thing you're looking for (like "Bittorrent client" or something) and the programs will pop up.


Flash is poop anyway:popcorn:

[Kronie]

Its all about mohnays for apple...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/apple-logo-legal-college,6459.html

[Jim!]

Its all about mohnays for apple...
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/apple-logo-legal-college,6459.html

Yeah I heard about that, It's pretty stupid really.

As for what I think about Apple/Mac OSX... I think Apple is a company with many good quality products and an excellent OS. I originally intended to switch to Mac and somehow found out about Linux while researching them, probably by clicking on a UNIX link or something in a Mac OSX wikipedia article. :D

[Kronie]

Yeah I heard about that, It's pretty stupid really.

As for what I think about Apple/Mac OSX... I think Apple is a company with many good quality products and an excellent OS. I originally intended to switch to Mac and somehow found out about Linux while researching them, probably by clicking on a UNIX link or something in a Mac OSX wikipedia article. :D

well, osx is based on unix, so.... or is it redhat? dont remember, but this 500$ OS for 5000$ Computers was originated from an open source... ironic, isnt it?

[handy]

well, osx is based on unix, so.... or is it redhat? dont remember, but this 500$ OS for 5000$ Computers was originated from an open source... ironic, isnt it?

Here is a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_X) that will give you the story on OSX, which costs $158- aus.

[gbrosso]

[QUOTE=Pharohs;5833844]I love the way that Mac apps are installed. Very simple for the user (especially "for all ordinary dumbusers"),

I'm a "dumbuser" myself and totally prefer Linux. It's just as has been said: lot's of freedom, ethically correct, functional, community-supported...

Macs are cool. Literally. They make you look cool. That's why they're so damn expensive. They're making money on people buying status.

[handy]

[QUOTE=Pharohs;5833844]I love the way that Mac apps are installed. Very simple for the user (especially "for all ordinary dumbusers"),

I'm a "dumbuser" myself and totally prefer Linux. It's just as has been said: lot's of freedom, ethically correct, functional, community-supported...

Macs are cool. Literally. They make you look cool. That's why they're so damn expensive. They're making money on people buying status.

Some people care what others think of them to the point that it effects what they wear, what they drive/ride, where they eat, who they talk to, what hardware they they use to listen to music or talk to others through, even what computer brand they buy.

Some people like the Apple OSX as it suits them better than any other they have seen. Some people consider it a waste of time learning how to use an OS, they just want to get the job done & get away from the machine.

Some people really like OSX a LOT.

Some people really like OSX & Windows & various Linux distro's a LOT.

Who would of thought it possible!? :lolflag:

[Frak]

Some people care what others think of them to the point that it effects what they wear, what they drive/ride, where they eat, who they talk to, what hardware they they use to listen to music or talk to others through, even what computer brand they buy.

Some people like the Apple OSX as it suits them better than any other they have seen. Some people consider it a waste of time learning how to use an OS, they just want to get the job done & get away from the machine.

Some people really like OSX a LOT.

Some people really like OSX & Windows & various Linux distro's a LOT.

Who would of thought it possible!? :lolflag:
+1

I only buy Macs now. Not because I "hate" Windows or "hate" Linux, I just "like" OS X and the way Macs are made.

[handy]

+1

I only buy Macs now. Not because I "hate" Windows or "hate" Linux, I just "like" OS X and the way Macs are made.

I prefer OSX to Windows by far, though I like the control I have via the distro's.

The reason I won't buy another Mac is due to the hardware limitations in place.

I really like to be able to fix/upgrade my machine, & all notebooks in general are quite limited as far as mother/daughterboard, psu, LCD screen & case components (the hing system) availability. I accept that. What I don't like is that the iMac has even more limitations in place due to its design.

I like the iMac, though it has been designed to age fast, particularly in the GPU department, where Apple products are always behind to start with, with perhaps the only exception being their Mac Pro, which may still have driver restriction regarding the latest graphic cards from nVidia & ATi.

Next time I'll build my own machine specifically for Linux kernel & driver compatibility. Though just like you, I don't care what other people use; different strokes for different folks, I'm always grateful for the freedom to choose. :)

Here is the disassembley process for the alu' iMac:

http://66.196.80.202/babelfish/translate_url_content?lp=ja_en&trurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kodawarisan.com%2Fimac_2007 _mid%2Fimac_2007_mid_01.html&.intl=us

[sebbss]

I don't hate apple I don't like apple i think it is quite good only what I don't understand is this: http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

[mips]

I like the iMac, though it has been designed to age fast, particularly in the GPU department, where Apple products are always behind to start with, with perhaps the only exception being their Mac Pro, which may still have driver restriction regarding the latest graphic cards from nVidia & ATi.

If Apple had stuck to the MXM specification the GPU could have easily been upgraded but they probably had alterior motives when they implemented MXM.
http://www.mxm-upgrade.com/store.html

[handy]

If Apple had stuck to the MXM specification the GPU could have easily been upgraded but they probably had alterior motives when they implemented MXM.
http://www.mxm-upgrade.com/store.html

+1 on the alterior motives.

[jeyaganesh]

It looks better than Windows. What I dont like in Mac is maximizing and minimizing the windows. You have to go only to the bottom corner to do so. In windows and linux it is very simple, you can maximize windows from any where around the border:guitar:.

[athaki]

I like Apple products but I do not have access to the funds required to procure an Apple machine. Therefore, I use Linux as a means of doing my computing tasks without shelling out lots of money I don't have.

[jeyaganesh]

I like Apple products but I do not have access to the funds required to procure an Apple machine. Therefore, I use Linux as a means of doing my computing tasks without shelling out lots of money I don't have.

I wish you have more money soon!

[factotum218]

But, I do not hate them in any way, it's not like MS that they are forcing their products on me.

That sucks, you rent an office in the Redmond headquarters or something? I mean it's not like you don't have the freedom to run Apple's OS on any PC platform legally...oh wait a second.

[Frak]

That sucks, you rent an office in the Redmond headquarters or something? I mean it's not like you don't have the freedom to run Apple's OS on any PC platform legally...oh wait a second.
If you do it for the sake of learning, it's legal.

[factotum218]

If you do it for the sake of learning, it's legal.

I'm sure that will keep all the lawyers at apple away. It's worked so far.

[galenorama]

I've never heard of anyone hating Apple.
I use Mac along with my Ubuntu machine, and I LOVE it!!!!

[handy]

I've never heard of anyone hating Apple.
I use Mac along with my Ubuntu machine, and I LOVE it!!!!

If you have never heard of anyone hating Apple, you obviously have not read this thread. :lolflag:

[Frak]

If you have never heard of anyone hating Apple, you obviously have not read this thread. :lolflag:
Nor been around many geeks.

[CGW]

I love my MBR...but I do have Ubuntu on two other machines. I hav to admit that my MBP is my main machine. Sorry... :(

[handy]

I love my MBR...but I do have Ubuntu on two other machines. I hav to admit that my MBP is my main machine. Sorry... :(

Master Boot Record? ;-)

[Frak]

Master Boot Record? ;-)
Wait... What?

[handy]

I love my MBR...

Wait... What?

Sorry Frak, my strange humor again... :lolflag:

[Frak]

Sorry Frak, my strange humor again... :lolflag:
I know ;)

Macbooks use fairy dust, of course.

[simonbanyard]

My, aren't there some opinionated and arrogant children out there. Worse still - ill-informed. I'd like to know how many have actually used OSX? By that I mean for more than an hour at school, or at the Apple store.

I'll begin by saying I'm a computer user - my main machine is an iMac running Leopard, my laptop is a Dell running Ubuntu.

As a company Apple, like Microsoft, are hugely responsible for making computing accessible to the masses, firstly with the Apple II, then with Macintosh, and more recently iMac and iPod, so I think that we should show more respect. The iPod may not be the best MP3 player on the market, but through clever marketing and good usability it IS the MP3 player to own. Geeks (generally, if you find yourself reading this, it means you are probably a geek!) know that there are technically better players, and for that matter formats (ogg, flac...) but for whatever reason MP3 is number 1 - and the iPod does what it does well - and its pretty (you may not agree with that statement, several million people will tell you that you're wrong, and since beauty is subjective...). Interestingly Mark Shuttleworth thinks that Ubuntu should look to Apple for inspiration in terms of look and feel (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/23/shuttleworth_apple_challenge/). Finally, the price differential argument doesn't add up - if you spec an Apple, Dell and HP machine like for like, unsurprisingly the prices are all similar.

As I stated, I'm a computer user and enthusiast - not a fanboy/boi. What people I have tried to convert to linux (specifically Ubuntu) and Apple are worried about is not being compatible with the rest of the world, perhaps through Microsoft FUD, but mainly through ignorance. When challenged with using forum to help and find out more, they say that dealing with geeks is horrible, they are opinionated and arrogant. Generally I find this forum friendly and informative, but having read this thread, I can see what they mean...

[handy]

If you read all of the thread you should know that I normally have 3 Macs in my house (there are 4 these days as our daughter is living with us again, plus I have a PC or 2 on Arch & other distro's), am a retired (mostly windows based software & hardware) tech', & can find fault in any OS or distro'.

I defend the right for people to use whatever they want to, as freedom of choice is what it is all about.

There is a huge range between being open minded & suffering from tunnel vision on any given subject. It matters not where you go, there are always going to be people no matter what their age that posses the immature & biased attitudes that incorporate being closed minded & suffering from tunnel vision.

You will find that MS is the most unpopular corporation in these forums, followed by Apple, who are really even more closed & protective of their products than MS. This is obviously going to rub people the wrong way in a Linux forum, especially those people that work for, or hold the FOSS ideal in high regard. Surely this attitude would be expected here?

Really, when the size of the Ubuntu forums population is taken into consideration, it is a minuscule proportion that comes & wastes their time making derogatory comments about Apple or even MS for that matter.

You will notice though that there is this Mac OSX & the Windows Discussions forums hosted here, with help given in them, they were not created as a venue for a roasting, actually if a flame war starts it will very quickly be reported & hence stopped by the forum admin'/mod's.

I think you are over reacting to posts in one of two currently existing threads that are about what people think of Apple or OS X.

If you post a question that requires technical assistance for OS X in this sub-forum you will get very good help here, & quite quickly too.

[NoSmokingBandit]

f you spec an Apple, Dell and HP machine like for like, unsurprisingly the prices are all similar.


I've done this myself on several occasions. Apple computers always cost more.

[handy]

I've done this myself on several occasions. Apple computers always cost more.

I've noticed here in Oz, that the Apple machines have been getting more & more opposition that is cheaper than them in recent months.

As has been said in this thread & others in this forum, it is usually cheaper to run a Mac than a windows PC (unless you do your own repairs), there is no need for anti-virus/mal-ware software & updates. The windows OS reliability may have improved since XP was released, it does not corrupt its registry as often as it used to, & there is system-restore to get back to a pre-corrupt state pretty quickly, this has bought the cost of owning a windows machine down some.

It is interesting how these two types get compared when really type 1. Apple Corp. & type 2. Windows & Linux, are very different. Type 1. is a hardware manufacturer that also makes some of the software that runs on its hardware. Type 2. Is software.

The Apple hardware & OS being created by the same company certainly has some benefits regarding compatibility with the Apple package. Though Apple do make it hard to upgrade internals (apart from RAM) on all of their models except the Mac Pro, which for the price really does need to have something going for it.

[Frak]

if you spec an Apple, Dell and HP machine like for like, unsurprisingly the prices are all similar.

Apple charges around $1000 per stick of FB-DIMM RAM on their Mac Pro's. I call Apple, get a bare-bones, and build it myself. My Mac Pro costs around $1,400, while the default Mac Pro is around $2,700.

Sources: Apple's site and a calculator.

[handy]

Apple charges around $1000 per stick of FB-DIMM RAM on their Mac Pro's. I call Apple, get a bare-bones, and build it myself. My Mac Pro costs around $1,400, while the default Mac Pro is around $2,700.

Sources: Apple's site and a calculator.

Can you buy a bare bones Mac Pro in the States?

We don't get offered that here in Oz.

[joe.turion64x2]

I think Apple makes good products (and like that fact), I too like the fact OSX is secure (thanks to its UNIX roots).

What I don't like it's Apple's 'vendor lock in', or the fact that their products can't be customized (without hacking them). Take for example the Ipod touch. You can't sync it with the PC unless you use Itunes (meaning you have Windows), you can't play some format files (open, like OGG), and from what I've read you can not buy music from any other place than Apple's service.

Some of the mentioned 'problems' can be 'graciously' overlooked considering one has enough money. So for now Apple's products are expensive toys for me to own, and as a matter of fact, since I am quite comfortable with the stuff I already have (don't need a new MP3 player, nor a new laptop with *NIX), I don't think I'd be getting Apple stuff when I can. Right now I could, but I like Linux and my current player, and prefer to keep buying Playmobil :)

Thanks.
Joe.

[Frak]

Can you buy a bare bones Mac Pro in the States?

We don't get offered that here in Oz.
I had to call them up personally and ask them for one. If they ask a reason, tell them you're trying to sell Mac's with refurbished parts. I've done this twice, and they asked for proof that I had a permit the first time around, though, not the second.

[flynnguy]

Personally I love my mac but don't always agree with apple. I think they have taken a number of bad stances on DRM issues. That said, I love the fact that they took UNIX and made it pretty and easy to use. I also love that I can have access to some popular software titles that will never come to linux. I also love the fact that I can run linux mac and windows all on the same box (Though I don't do windows anymore) But most of all I love it because I can ditch windows completely.