What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X?

[olieviya]

Apple wants the whole pie, not just a slice. They want to glean riches by controlling the hardware and the software; the content and the players. They hide behind this false creation of this puffed up image of coolness but they're really just a bunch of greedy opportunists looking to exploit people and make shortcuts where they can just like any other corporation. Apple is just like Microsoft in my book.

Please forgive me, but that's extremely naive of you to think. Microsoft does it's level best to dominate the market and get your money. Bottom line. They want their products to be unavoidable in as many aspects of life as possible, and have even released press statements to this effect. This equates to an attempt to force their products on you.

I totally agree just because Apple (to some people at last) seems hip and cool and groovy and the David against M$'s Goliath doesn't make that a fact. Apple in fact seems to worse to me, anyway no point repeating what you so rightly have said. :KS

[Frak]

Actually, Apple did steal and innovate the Dock. NeXT invented the Dock, Apple took the idea, then Apple bought NeXT, and CEO of NeXT (Steve Jobs) reworked his way back as CEO of Apple.

Taadaa

Also, Mac OS X is actually NeXTstep, not a new version of System X which is widely believed.

[Frak]

2.- Why? Any reasons? Claims? Proofs?
Cause I'll tell you, I don't even know if you ever tried Safari, but something tells me that you haven't... :)
Without having tried Safari is easy to live with Firefox's slow UI and slow browsing experience... Or its pain-in-the-*** bookmark management... I've lost my whole collection of bookmarks on several gecko-based browsers... Not really funny, huh? And it doesn't even have a decent bookmark import-export feature!!!

Actually, Safari isn't much different than Konqueror, which I myself do not like. It's not a good engine IMHO (KHTML). I do not like the bookmarking of Safari compared to Firefox, because I can at least back up my bookmarks into my del.ico.us account in Fx. Also for the Bookmarks, I've never lost them using Fx or other Gecko based browser, why, because Bookmark handling is browser independent, not engine specific.

Also, there have been tests done that show that Gecko based browsers render Web Pages faster than KHTML on Unix based systems running x86/x86_64 based processors.

Safari is not a well made browser to some of us.

[NoSmokingBandit]

WTF???

1.- I'd like you to prove your first claim... Because fly-out menus are used for browsing folders that are placed in the dock... And they only offer limited functionality btw... But, of course, you don't say who copied the whole Dock idea... And the screen edge tabs... Or how they totally ripped of the tab gui elements from the first versions of OS X... Apple doesn't steal ideas... And i'm not gonna get into ObejctDock's user experience regarding the UI...

2.- Why? Any reasons? Claims? Proofs?
Cause I'll tell you, I don't even know if you ever tried Safari, but something tells me that you haven't... :)
Without having tried Safari is easy to live with Firefox's slow UI and slow browsing experience... Or its pain-in-the-*** bookmark management... I've lost my whole collection of bookmarks on several gecko-based browsers... Not really funny, huh? And it doesn't even have a decent bookmark import-export feature!!!

Safari is clumsy and not intuitive at all. You may like it, and thats fine, but i find that firefox handles my needs way better than safari does.

I'm not commenting much on your first part because Frak has it right. I didnt want a objectdock vs osx dock thing going on, im just saying that stacks very closely resemble flyout menus. Flyout menus arent only for folders, you can put anything you want in there at all. Anything. So its very useful.

Apple steals ideas. Microsoft steals ideas. Linux steals ideas. Saying one company steals no ideas and is completely original is a very uneducated thing to say.

[karellen]

Apple is just a smaller Microsoft. Mac OS X is a fine OS. and that's about it...

[Frak]

Apple is just a smaller Microsoft. Mac OS X is a fine OS. and that's about it...
+1, very true.

[Chrisj303]

I love Mac OSX - it offers me a tighter integration and a far higher standard of software then any other OS on the market.

[Frak]

I love Mac OSX - it offers me a tighter integration and a far higher standard of software then any other OS on the market.
+1, I must agree. The software that you would usually find on Windows or Linux, is usually better coded and nicer looking, not to mention, in some cases, I've also had more features.

[RAV TUX]

OS X is the best OS that money can buy, not the best OS that exist but the best that you can buy.

[Frak]

Best OS that money can buy, but use a lot of OS's and you'll notice it just acts like an Overglorified version of PC-BSD.

[RAV TUX]

Best OS that money can buy, but use a lot of OS's and you'll notice it just acts like an Overglorified version of PC-BSD.

I would say PC-BSD is even better then OS X & PC-BSD is free, I do think in my humble opinion that Elive Gem 1.0 is the best OS that exist and also free.

I actually have PC-BSD installed on my old computer, and Elive Gem 1.0 on my newer primary computer.

[Frak]

Yet, I still think OS X is the best OS, even if it is made by an evil company. It shows some effort. Not MS's crap.

[Chrisj303]

+1, I must agree. The software that you would usually find on Windows or Linux, is usually better coded and nicer looking, not to mention, in some cases, I've also had more features.

err.. i don't get it?

Either you've made a typo or mis-read my post.

"The software you would usually find on windows or Linux is usually better coded and nicer looking , not to mention, in some cases, I've also had more features."

Are you having a laugh!?

[Frak]

Now I am, sorry I had a moment of dyslexia ;)

I really like the Cocoa language, and find its harder to fault using it, than it is to fault using C or C++.

[Alfa989]

Kind of irrelevant - The guys point was that Apple copied someone else, he point is valid even if they previously copied another idea from apple, the point being that most of the new features is Leopard are all copied from different places.
"Copied from different places"...

Apart from Spaces, which is a blatant rip-off... You're wrong... (If I'm not wrong)

[Alfa989]

please get serious. there are some good things about osx, but safari is definitely not among them.
Why not?

[Alfa989]

Actually, Apple did steal and innovate the Dock. NeXT invented the Dock, Apple took the idea, then Apple bought NeXT, and CEO of NeXT (Steve Jobs) reworked his way back as CEO of Apple.

Taadaa

Also, Mac OS X is actually NeXTstep, not a new version of System X which is widely believed.

1.- Apple DID NOT "copy" the dock before they bought NeXT... Revise you facts...

2.- Mac OS X is not NeXTSTEP or "A pretty BSD" as some "freetards" claim... NexTSTEP forms part of the foundation, along with the libraries and some concepts... But OS X is mostly new engineering...

And what the hell do you mean by "Not a new version of System X which is widely believed." What the hell is System X????

[Frak]

1.- Apple DID NOT "copy" the dock before they bought NeXT... Revise you facts...

2.- Mac OS X is not NeXTSTEP or "A pretty BSD" as some "freetards" claim... NexTSTEP forms part of the foundation, along with the libraries and some concepts... But OS X is mostly new engineering...

And what the hell do you mean by "Not a new version of System X which is widely believed." What the hell is System X????
3. FYI, System X refers to System 1-9, from which Mac has ascended from since the 70's. Mac OS X is based off of BSD, not System X.

2. Mac OS X is modified version NeXTSTEP, or if you want to get technical, OS X is based off of Rhapsody OS, which is NeXTSTEP ported to the PPC. This based off of the BSD subsystem, which I might add is essentially the BSD I'm talking about. I don't know where you are.

P.S. Rhapsody is also the codename of OS X development, makes you ponder, hmm...

1. Apple was using the Dock in late Developer versions of Mac OS 7, also known as System 7, from which Apple did not yet own NeXT, nor NeXTSTEP. Please revise your facts.

[Zoiked]

I dislike Apple for many reasons.

First, They force iTunes on you, Tell me one other player for the mac besides iTunes. Also, Quicktime is a peice of crap. Anyone that sells protected Music and forces it on you(Ya, I know you can buy unprotected but it cost more.).

Second, You are restricted to there hardware and only there hardware. You open your computer, its against the warrenty, you change your hardware you are completely screwed.

Third, There monitors are build in. This is good and bad, but what if your monitor breaks. Will they replace it? Does it cost more then buying a regular monitor from a store? Probably Not!

Fourth, People complain about Microsoft integrating Internet Explorer, Media Player and other stuff. Then again, Apple forces iTunes, Safari and Quicktime on you. Find me another music service for Apples besides iTunes Store. Honestly, There programs are more integrated then Microsofts.

Fith, Apple wants your money. Its true, most people don't belive it because they don't have majority share over things. For instance, Can you use another music service besides iTunes on your iPod? You can't even use a different media player for the iPod anymore.

Sixth, There computers are way over priced. Hello, Dell can sell me the same computer for a deal of $500 dollars for 1gig ram and duel core and a LCD monitor with Keyboard and Mouse. Apple can give me that for about $1200 more.

[Frak]

Actually for awhile, IE was the default browser of Mac OS 8 and 9. Mac OS X was the first since then to have Safari as the default browser.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Remember when MS integrated all their software into the os? Everyone got angry and called it a monopoly. Now apple does it and they call it an innovation...
Apple =/= choices (hradware, software, what have you), and i like choices.

[Frak]

Remember when MS integrated all their software into the os? Everyone got angry and called it a monopoly. Now apple does it and they call it an innovation...
Apple =/= choices (hradware, software, what have you), and i like choices.
+1, I don't necessarily need iLife. Just a waste of HD space, and money.

[aletheianalex]

I dislike Apple for many reasons.

First, They force iTunes on you, Tell me one other player for the mac besides iTunes. Also, Quicktime is a peice of crap. Anyone that sells protected Music and forces it on you(Ya, I know you can buy unprotected but it cost more.).

Second, You are restricted to there hardware and only there hardware. You open your computer, its against the warrenty, you change your hardware you are completely screwed.

Third, There monitors are build in. This is good and bad, but what if your monitor breaks. Will they replace it? Does it cost more then buying a regular monitor from a store? Probably Not!

Fourth, People complain about Microsoft integrating Internet Explorer, Media Player and other stuff. Then again, Apple forces iTunes, Safari and Quicktime on you. Find me another music service for Apples besides iTunes Store. Honestly, There programs are more integrated then Microsofts.

Fith, Apple wants your money. Its true, most people don't belive it because they don't have majority share over things. For instance, Can you use another music service besides iTunes on your iPod? You can't even use a different media player for the iPod anymore.

Sixth, There computers are way over priced. Hello, Dell can sell me the same computer for a deal of $500 dollars for 1gig ram and duel core and a LCD monitor with Keyboard and Mouse. Apple can give me that for about $1200 more.

There is more than one way of looking at all that though. For situations where stability & functionality = time, and time = money (like a 48 track live audio recording session for example), I am more than willing to pay whatever Apple wants and deal with the hardware restrictions for the guaranteed functionality and support that Apple offers. That is the tradeoff for a locked system like Apple/OSX or Digidesign/ProTools, etc. However, I think that in addition to the "just works" benefit of Apple/OSX, you can add "and if it doesn't... we'll fix it". The few problem that I HAVE had with their hardware were fixed free of charge with replacement parts that arrived to me within 24 hours, AND I received follow up calls. I also don't know ANY other company in the genre that maintains the tech support/developer notes/software database as far back and as completely as Apple does. If I want to find the specifications for a SYS_BUS oscillator chip on a logicboard from 1993 or download a software patch for a mid 80's Mac Classic... I can get.

But I enjoy the open-ness of Linux as well. I tend to swing from completely closed and safe (OSX) to completely open and risky (Linux) and just skip out the Microsoft, etc. middle-ground where you feel like a criminal scouring hacker/kracker sites just to find a fix for something that SHOULD be legal and SHOULD have worked right out of the box.

Just my $.02

[DouglasAWh]

OS X is better than Windows. Apple's great image I think is somewhat fabricated with all the iPhone lock outs and such. That being said, I might be in the market for an iPhone (already on AT&T). Apple makes great products, end of story. They are sketchy, just like Microsoft, but do quality work.

I'll keep buying ubuntu Dell's as long as their available though...unless someone else offers Ubuntu pre-installs. Apple offering a Linux pre-install would be pretty cool. I'd even pay for OS X to run beside it. I don't want any of my machines running Windows in the future though, except as a virtual OS perhaps. It wouldn't do anything to Apple sales, since we'd still be paying for the OS X license. They'd have to do some different stuff on the install, but I can't imagine that would cost them that much.

[Frak]

Forgot about the hardware aspect, with that it makes it easier for developers to design nice, neat, pretty looking applications with added features and benefits, without having to worry about hardware restrictions.

[Alfa989]

3. FYI, System X refers to System 1-9, from which Mac has ascended from since the 70's. Mac OS X is based off of BSD, not System X.

2. Mac OS X is modified version NeXTSTEP, or if you want to get technical, OS X is based off of Rhapsody OS, which is NeXTSTEP ported to the PPC. This based off of the BSD subsystem, which I might add is essentially the BSD I'm talking about. I don't know where you are.

P.S. Rhapsody is also the codename of OS X development, makes you ponder, hmm...

1. Apple was using the Dock in late Developer versions of Mac OS 7, also known as System 7, from which Apple did not yet own NeXT, nor NeXTSTEP. Please revise your facts.
3.- He should call it the "classic OS" or "Mac OS"...
2.- Mac OS X has just a tiny amount of BSD-ness in it... And Rhapsody was more than just "NeXTSTEP on PPC"...
1.- Show me

[Alfa989]

I dislike Apple for many reasons.
Like everybody else... (At least a little...)

First, They force iTunes on you, Tell me one other player for the mac besides iTunes. Also, Quicktime is a peice of crap. Anyone that sells protected Music and forces it on you(Ya, I know you can buy unprotected but it cost more.).
VLC, Songbird, RealPlayer, QuickTime, SoundJam, Rhapsody, etc...
How do they "Force that evil, evil iTunes on you"?
And they certainly DO NOT force you on buying music...
And normally music bought somewhere else apart from the iTMS cost more... And it normally comes in lovely WMA format...

Second, You are restricted to there hardware and only there hardware. You open your computer, its against the warrenty, you change your hardware you are completely screwed.


You are certainly not restricted to ONLY their hardware...
And the same goes for the second claim, opening you mac to change thing like RAM doesn't void the warranty...

Third, There monitors are build in. This is good and bad, but what if your monitor breaks. Will they replace it? Does it cost more then buying a regular monitor from a store? Probably Not!
Just on the iMac, dude... And yes, they DO replace it...

Fourth, People complain about Microsoft integrating Internet Explorer, Media Player and other stuff. Then again, Apple forces iTunes, Safari and Quicktime on you. Find me another music service for Apples besides iTunes Store. Honestly, There programs are more integrated then Microsofts.
Ok
Try uninstalling IE... Oops! Or WMP... Oops!
They do not force you to use it... But to accces Windows Update you need IE yes or yes...
Another music service? Bokay... Amazon, AllofMp3, Rhapsody... And maaaany more...

Fith, Apple wants your money. Its true, most people don't belive it because they don't have majority share over things. For instance, Can you use another music service besides iTunes on your iPod? You can't even use a different media player for the iPod anymore.
EVERY company wants you money... People still don't know that?
"Can you use another music service..." Hell yes!
"You can't even use a different media player" Geez... iPod + iTunes is ONE SINGLE PRODUCT... But there are tons of 3rd party apps that let you manage you iPod... Now we just need to wait a bit to get the 3G nano and 6G iPod working on those...

Sixth, There computers are way over priced. Hello, Dell can sell me the same computer for a deal of $500 dollars for 1gig ram and duel core and a LCD monitor with Keyboard and Mouse. Apple can give me that for about $1200 more.
Build me a computer with the EXACT same specs, nice looks, features and capabilities that any Mac has and then look at the price tag... Exactly! "Oops"

[Frak]

1.- Show me

That's something you'll have to find yourself, I have the floppies right next to me, but they don't run on any of my Mac's, and I'm not running them in Mini vMac just to show you. They are freely available from Apple's website, all you have to have is an old Mac Classic and the Mac ROM off of it.

I don't have to make you believe me, I just know I'm right:guitar:

[Alfa989]

That's something you'll have to find yourself, I have the floppies right next to me, but they don't run on any of my Mac's, and I'm not running them in Mini vMac just to show you. They are freely available from Apple's website, all you have to have is an old Mac Classic and the Mac ROM off of it.

I don't have to make you believe me, I just know I'm right:guitar:
Mmm... I've got quite a lot of experience with Sys 7 on vMac and Basilisk...

And I can say that there's nothing like a dock in System 7... :)

Nice try dude...

[NoSmokingBandit]

He specifically said the dock was in developer versions of os7. Perhaps you havent used that version?

[Frak]

OK, here you go

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Macintosh_System_7.5.3_screenshot.png

The first dock of System 7

[NoSmokingBandit]

Nice pic, Frak. That dock actually looks more functional than the new one. Uglier by far, but looks easier to use.

[Frak]

Nice pic, Frak. That dock actually looks more functional than the new one. Uglier by far, but looks easier to use.
That and it was less obtrusive.

[Alfa989]

He specifically said the dock was in developer versions of os7. Perhaps you havent used that version?
Maybe... But he said that it was "floating around" the old Apple support downloads site...

[Frak]

This (http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/) Might interest you

[Alfa989]

OK, here you go

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/13/Macintosh_System_7.5.3_screenshot.png

The first dock of System 7
What, the control strip? :D :D :D :D

Have you even used Sys7? :D

1.- It's just like OS X's menu bar items or Windows' system tray...
2.- It can't contain apps or folders
3.- It can't be overall resized...
4.- It's can't be moved to a vertical position on the left or the right od the screen...
5.- It hasn't got rollover item names
6.- Items can't be moved around
7.- Items just have a pop-up menu, they are not proper "dockable items"
8.- Etc...

You have to know something to be able to speak about it, right? ;)

[Frak]

I do, I grew up with System 6 and 7, and I remember about the critisisms it got from from looking too much like NeXTSTEP's Dock.

[Alfa989]

This (http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/) Might interest you
Yeah, right... You've got no clue of what you're saying...

Apple was using the Dock in late Developer versions of Mac OS 7, also known as System 7

Now, show me those DEVELOPER versions that are in Apple's old software support site, just as I asked for... ;)

[Frak]

Alfa989 has been added to the Ignore List.

Alfa, you don't want to listen to me, you know you are wrong, so you have been ignored.

[Alfa989]

I do, I grew up with System 6 and 7, and I remember about the critisisms it got from from looking too much like NeXTSTEP's Dock.

But it's NOT a Dock...

It's a bunch of square-ish buttons in a side of the screen (NeXTSTEP's Dock was on the top right of the screen, remember?), but the similarities end there...

[Alfa989]

Alfa989 has been added to the Ignore List.

Alfa, you don't want to listen to me, you know you are wrong, so you have been ignored.

WHAT?

I'm just asking for what you said you were going to show me! I'm the one that is right here, not you... Read the last 3 pages (actually 4 now) of this thread again, please...

[NoSmokingBandit]

he showed you that you were wrong on several occasions yet you keep going...
The dock is copied. It may be slightly different, but it is so blatantly copied. If you cant see that then you must be a true apple fanboy.

[aletheianalex]

Do you mean the Launcher maybe? That is the first Apple incarnation of the dock that I know of... just like the OSX dock, but it's ugly and can 'float' instead of being moored to the bottom or side of the screen, and be called up with a keystroke and either sit on top of open programs or stay behind them. The first time I saw it was in an old Performa... either late System 6 or early system 7, but it was at least installed by default somewhere in the revisions of Mac OS/system 7.

{edit}
I just checked through my old Apple crud... if it helps at all, the launcher seems to have first appeared in system 7.0.1 'performa edition', but I don't see it on any of my old full install disks until the mid 7 versions.

[farmfield]

OSX is friggin amazing! The reason people are pissed off with with Apple/Jobs is iTunes/iPod. Read my post here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3433709#post3433709) for my view on this! :)

[AlphaMack]

Unbelievable.
@ Alfa

SoundJam? You mean the app that Apple bought and corrupted it into the iTunes bloatware of today?

Actually, there was one other notable competitor before those guys gave up: Audion. Read the history. (http://www.panic.com/extras/audionstory/)

Sure, you can choose not to use Apple hardware or RAM. Changing your HDD, even to increase storage space voids the warranty. Switching out your notebook's optical drive for something more powerful guarantees you to be SOL. Oh, and let's not forget what Apple thinks of third party RAM, especially when it (http://macintouch.com/firmwareramprob.html) comes (http://lowendmac.com/musings/foot.html) to (http://chrislawson.net/writing/techref/010503.shtml) firmware (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=60839).

Oh, and wouldn't you know? In unrelated news Apple's iPhone update today disables third party apps (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=361444). Need I say more?

[aletheianalex]

OSX is friggin amazing! The reason people are pissed off with with Apple/Jobs is iTunes/iPod. Read my post here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=3433709#post3433709) for my view on this! :)

Not to start a tangent, but I don't really understand all that hubbub about iTunes... just about every MP3 player has some kind of proprietary software bundled with it, and iTunes just happens to be the only one that actually ... well... functions, and if you don't like it, you don't HAVE to use it... run Floola, MPlayer and Yamipod or some such

And as far as the iTunes store being unfair to musicians... well I AM a musician, and the cut I get from Apple's iTunes store is higher than storefront sale royalty rate in most cases. People look at how small a muisician's cut is from the internet download sales and go "WHOA! They get NOTHING from that"... well, they should read a record contract sometime if they really want to be floored, AND for grass-roots musicians without a distribution deal, it sets them up with a ready-made global distribution network... which was inconcievable a decade ago (I would have KILLED for something like that back in the day). AAAAAAND, if Apple wants to stripe a download with copy-protection... GOOD! If a musician wants their music to be free for everyone then they can post the MP3's on their website, but if they actually work AS as musician and pay their bills with their music like I do, then they DESERVE protection.

I used SoundJam back in the day because it was the best alternative after MacAmp, so I was glad when Apple integrated it into their portable player since it was a lot better than streaming songs in real-time from SoundJam into my MiniDisk player. Heck, I even used Audion for a while, but it was buggy and when the iTunes store really took off, it was pretty much spent.

[Alfa989]

he showed you that you were wrong on several occasions yet you keep going...
The dock is copied. It may be slightly different, but it is so blatantly copied. If you cant see that then you must be a true apple fanboy.
1.- He didn't prove me wrong at all... If you think otherwise, then show me...

2.- The Dock is NOT copied... If you can't see it then you haven't used OS X and Sys7 at all...

[Alfa989]

Do you mean the Launcher maybe? That is the first Apple incarnation of the dock that I know of... just like the OSX dock, but it's ugly and can 'float' instead of being moored to the bottom or side of the screen, and be called up with a keystroke and either sit on top of open programs or stay behind them. The first time I saw it was in an old Performa... either late System 6 or early system 7, but it was at least installed by default somewhere in the revisions of Mac OS/system 7.

{edit}
I just checked through my old Apple crud... if it helps at all, the launcher seems to have first appeared in system 7.0.1 'performa edition', but I don't see it on any of my old full install disks until the mid 7 versions.

Mmm... Interesting!

Can you post a screenshot, please?

[Alfa989]

SoundJam? You mean the app that Apple bought and corrupted it into the iTunes bloatware of today?
"iTunes bloatware" What makes you think that?


Sure, you can choose not to use Apple hardware or RAM. Changing your HDD, even to increase storage space voids the warranty. Switching out your notebook's optical drive for something more powerful guarantees you to be SOL. Oh, and let's not forget what Apple thinks of third party RAM, especially when it comes to firmware
Not in a MacBook or Mac Pro...
And third party RAM can be perfectly used, with no hitch...

Oh, and wouldn't you know? In unrelated news Apple's iPhone update today disables third party apps (http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=361444). Need I say more?
OMG!! I mean, come on, Apple should ENFORCE to modify or hack iPhones in violation of their terms and conditions...

Why do you even complaint?

[aletheianalex]

Mmm... Interesting!

Can you post a screenshot, please?

Sure. I still have a few old powerbooks running.

Here is a pic of the launcher in it's natural-installed floating state in all of it's ancient glory. There were a ZILLION launcher helper apps /hacks/skins/etc back in the day that let you do various things to the way it looks/functions/behaves, but as it stands, you just drag and drop an application, folder, file, script, file on it and it converts the file path into a little 'button' that you click to launch the app/script, open the folder, open the file, etc.

I had to boot into OS 8.6 since that version had screenshots built-in, but the launcher remained pretty much unchanged from version 7.0 .

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z57/aletheianalex/launcher.jpg

[AlphaMack]

"iTunes bloatware" What makes you think that?


Not in a MacBook or Mac Pro...
And third party RAM can be perfectly used, with no hitch...

OMG!! I mean, come on, Apple should ENFORCE to modify or hack iPhones in violation of their terms and conditions...

Why do you even complaint?

Thank you for proving your fanboyish nature with retorts like those. Apple can do no wrong in your world; no one will ever convince you otherwise.

[Rick 1]

I'm not sure what this thread's about. I'm sure it's silly but that's about it. However all this rubbish about who stole the dock - seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEXTSTEP
Nextstep's user interface was refined and consistent and introduced the idea of the Dock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_%28computing%29
The Dock is a graphical user interface feature used to launch applications and switch between running applications. It was first introduced in the NeXTSTEP and OPENSTEP operating systems
Not that it matters one iota of course. Don't root for operating systems. Root for your favourite football team. Chill out.

[aletheianalex]

I'm not sure what this thread's about. I'm sure it's silly but that's about it. However all this rubbish about who stole the dock - seriously.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEXTSTEP

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_%28computing%29

Not that it matters one iota of course. Don't root for operating systems. Root for your favourite football team. Chill out.

True! It matters not.

Buuuuuuuut just as a little bone of contention... NEXTSTEP is the OS that was developed by NeXT... um... which was STEVE JOBS' company!!! So I don't know if you can actually "steal" from yourself.

Oh... and someone mentioned the control strip as a dock... which is not it's original purpose, but I just rememberd a little add-on from back ion the late 90's called "dockstrip" or something like that, which turns the MacOS control strip into an OSX dock-like appliance... just a fun little bit of history.

[Alfa989]

Thank you for proving your fanboyish nature with retorts like those. Apple can do no wrong in your world; no one will ever convince you otherwise.

Why don't you reply to my comments proving me wrong?

Geez... If you think that I'm the "bad guy" here... Then you haven't read yourself...

[Alfa989]

Sure. I still have a few old powerbooks running.

Here is a pic of the launcher in it's natural-installed floating state in all of it's ancient glory. There were a ZILLION launcher helper apps /hacks/skins/etc back in the day that let you do various things to the way it looks/functions/behaves, but as it stands, you just drag and drop an application, folder, file, script, file on it and it converts the file path into a little 'button' that you click to launch the app/script, open the folder, open the file, etc.

I had to boot into OS 8.6 since that version had screenshots built-in, but the launcher remained pretty much unchanged from version 7.0 .

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z57/aletheianalex/launcher.jpg

Wow!

Looks interesting!

I've never had the opportunity to run OS8 on an emulator...

[aletheianalex]

Wow!

Looks interesting!

I've never had the opportunity to run OS8 on an emulator...

Try SheepShaver. It will do up to OS 9.0.4 with OSX or Linux as a host OS, but regretably it will not run OS 9.1 - 9.2.2. It's always fun to try out old OS'es... it's like playing an old video game.

Lemme make a vain attempt to get some more folks involved in the original topic of comparing/contrasting with OSX: I have been an Apple user since before MacOS existed, and a Microsoft user since before Windows existed, and a Linux user since before Ubuntu existed, and it seems clear to me that All OS'es have their pluses and minuses based on usage and the ideology of the platorm's development tesm, and there can not really be a difinitive "best" really since end-users have such differing needs, BUT, since this thread is "What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X", I do admire Apple/MacOSX for what they are and have done, but will FREELY admit that there are (like every OS) flaws, bugs and room for improvement, and I do not agree with how they treat their system and their corporate policies, but I accept them when I am working with their systems...you take the good with the bad, y'know?

In contrast, MS/Windows is a locked and shrouded system, but is not NEARLY as good or progressive, and Linux is...well...Linux: it will always be buggy by nature since it is always growing and expanding and trying to stay on the bleeding edge. While I somewhat lament a the closed-ness of OSX and the 'last generation' implimentations, it is solid, and I equally lament the fact that Linux seems to move along too quickly and re-create itself in a new form before the last form was fully worked out and 100% stable... but I use both for different reasons, as well as Windows when neccessary just because of it's ONLY redeeming factor: availability of good software (even though it is running on a bad system), and even DOS when needeed...OK... ONLY for old games.

MacOS 9 -- all gussied-up with my favorite tweaks -- is still my subjective favorite OS for daily ho-hum use even though it is a dinasour... just because I spent so many years in it, but I am comfy in 7.6.1 as well, which is the best of the pre-carbon MacOS'es. Unfortunately, there is some instability if you don't know what you are doing because OS 9 and up was really just to transition the Mac community and programmers into the new UNIX-like paradigm of OSX. Using Linux terminology, what I find lacking is the 'window manager' since navagating the OS is a bit clunky, BUT, in my opinion, still better than any of the unfortunate Windows interfaces, which have regrettably not evolved much over the yeras.

In OSX terms, the latest versions of OSX are my favorites, and I like the flexibility of having X11 at my fingertips, but within such a stable tweaked FreeBSD implimentation as OSX is.

It is hard to compare a system like MacOS to Linux, simply because there are soooo many flavors of Linux out there. I have been working with Ubuntu/Gnome for a while now, and I'll admit... I am not a big Gnome fan, BUT I think that Windows users should be very comfortable with it. The interface is very Windows-like and the performance kinda feels like my system is running with a bad spark plug, if you know what I mean. I DID like KDE, but the newest version seems horribly bloated and clunky. I don't know what they did, but it was not a good thing. Xfce is really just 'meh' as far as performance. I HAVE been really liking the e17 'Enlightenment' desktop, but the project seems to be stalled in an unstable state... which is unfortunate because it is the only Linux desktop that I have tried and thought... 'WHOA! This is SWEET!" Definately worth taking it for a spin just for the novelty if you have not already, even though it is buggy and crashey at the moment but BOY is it fast!

[NoSmokingBandit]

True! It matters not.

Buuuuuuuut just as a little bone of contention... NEXTSTEP is the OS that was developed by NeXT... um... which was STEVE JOBS' company!!! So I don't know if you can actually "steal" from yourself.
.

Sigh... If you read anything you would realize that apple stole the dock before they bought NeXTSTEP. That means that steve jobs was not employed by apple at the time the dock was stolen.

[aletheianalex]

Sigh... If you read anything you would realize that apple stole the dock before they bought NeXTSTEP. That means that steve jobs was not employed by apple at the time the dock was stolen.

I don't want to start anything, but how do you figure that since Apple bought NeXT in 1996 and OSX server did not get released until 1999, and the dock in the form that this discussion is about did not appear until 2001 in OSX desktop? They didn't steal anything from NeXT, they BOUGHT it for $400,000,000, and then brought Steve Jobs back onboard as a temporary CEO to help them work out the details of porting NeXT features to MacOS... and then eventually decided to keep him around.

[Frak]

I don't want to start anything, but how do you figure that since Apple bought NeXT in 1996 and OSX server did not get released until 1999, and the dock in the form that this discussion is about did not appear until 2001 in OSX desktop? They didn't steal anything from NeXT, they BOUGHT it for $400,000,000, and then brought Steve Jobs back onboard as a temporary CEO to help them work out the details of porting NeXT features to MacOS... and then eventually decided to keep him around.
Well Apple is smart enough not to directly copy the dock, but what we're talking about is kind of "masking" the dock to where it doesn't look like the NeXT Dock, yet, contains much of the same functionality of the Dock.

[elvis]

I am very surprised about this poll, too. I do not hate apple at all. I actually like their products very much, even though they are not open-source.

There's a great deal of code in MacOSX and other Apple products that is open source.

For quite some time Apple was one of the largest contributors to GCC's PPC code tree (MacOSX itself is built using GCC). Liikewise a lot of networking tools surrounding zeroconf have contributions made by Apple engineers. Apple's OpenDirectory too is based on OpenLDAP code, and submissions back into the OpenLDAP code base have been made by Apple engineers. Safari uses KHTML (the rendering engine for Konqueror), and again code contributions have been made back there. There's dozens of other projects that Apple actively contributes code to - and in the land of open source, code is worth a lot.

More recently, Apple bought the "CUPS" print engine/software (MacOSX uses CUPS internally for printing), and in the process hired the original owner who now works full-time for Apple (and the rest of the world) on CUPS. In fact, Gutsy Gibbon ships with CUPS 1.3.2 as it's print engine, which is technically Apple's baby now.

These are all positives. On the minus side, I'm very angry at Apple for buying out Shake, (1) Selling it on Linux at twice the price of the MacOSX version and (2) constantly lagging releases of the Linux version behind the MacOSX version.

The same can be said about a lot of Apple's multimedia side of their business. Most of the tools they sell are buy-outs of previous software, which are then Apple-ified and pushed heavily to lock people into buying Apple hardware.

But the positives are there. MacOSX itself is a great example of how a company can leverage open source for it's own financial gain without needing to resort to evil methods of doing business, and the computer-using community as a whole benefits. I just wish the same philosophy applied to all departments at Apple HQ.

[aletheianalex]

Well Apple is smart enough not to directly copy the dock, but what we're talking about is kind of "masking" the dock to where it doesn't look like the NeXT Dock, yet, contains much of the same functionality of the Dock.

Ok, that is all well and good, but Apple purchased the right to it in 1996 and then put it into use 5 years later in 2001 with some new eye-candy and improved functionality. It is not theft if they owned it. Much of the original OSX is NEXTSTEP since they purchased it in order to use that platform as a base for their new OS, so where is the theft?

[Frak]

I'm not talking about OS X, I'm talking about OS 7 and OS 8.

[AlphaMack]

There's dozens of other projects that Apple actively contributes code to - and in the land of open source, code is worth a lot.

(snip)

The same can be said about a lot of Apple's multimedia side of their business. Most of the tools they sell are buy-outs of previous software, which are then Apple-ified and pushed heavily to lock people into buying Apple hardware.

But the positives are there. MacOSX itself is a great example of how a company can leverage open source for it's own financial gain without needing to resort to evil methods of doing business, and the computer-using community as a whole benefits. I just wish the same philosophy applied to all departments at Apple HQ.

Food for thought.

Apple contributes code to give the impression of being open source when in reality they just don't give a hoot and it especially shows on the x86 side of the coin of their 'universal' support. Rob Braun detailed many examples of Apple not playing fair across several essays written by him:

http://www.synack.net/~bbraun/

Apple indeed have a history of buying up third party products, Macifying them, and including them as a means for further lock-in. SoundJam is already one previously mentioned example. Some other examples include:
- MultiFinder to Finder (classic Mac OS; an extension written by two Apple engineers)
- KeyGrip to Final Cut Pro
- Emagic to GarageBand/Logic Pro
- DVDirector to iDVD/DVD Studio Pro
- Stickies
- WindowShade
- SuperClock

and on and on...

At the same time Apple use their position to shut out competing third party developers:

- Audion vs. iTunes, again as previously mentioned
- Adobe Premiere vs. Final Cut Pro
- Watson vs. Sherlock
- Dashboard vs. Konfabulator
- Launchbar vs. Spotlight

Now back to "open source." Sure Apple software can import formats such as .vcf and .mbox, but good luck with the end result:

- Try importing your vCards into AddressBook.app and then try exporting your cards. Import them into something like, say, Evolution, and marvel at the number of format corrections you need to make. Your database? It's proprietary. Might as well use Outlook on your Windows box or even Entourage for that matter.

- Apple Mail uses a proprietary and undocumented format to store your mail in order to get around the limitations imposed by Spotlight. Fortunately there is a third party converter that will undo the damage and restore your mail into their respective mbox files.

- If you have custom playlists, ratings, sound counts, etc. in iTunes or custom photo info and albums in iPhoto? Good luck taking that with you to other programs. The .xml exports won't do you any good.

- iTunes can't properly write mp3 ID3 tags half the time. Try opening some of those mp3s in Amarok and...where did the tags go? I have many mp3s with missing tags that were imported from my CDs into iTunes. Perhaps it's Amarok's fault that the tags show up in Rhythmbox, Banshee, et. al. Not to mention the proprietary iTunes database, the XML backup that is next to useless, the proprietary format for downloaded album art in iTunes 7.x, and the most blatant example of lock-in, .m4p.

- And while we're talking about iTunes, .ogg is only supported through a third party plugin, and even then, no AirTunes if you land on an .ogg file while listening to your playlist over an AirPort Express.

- Lastly, read up in the wiki on why launchd was passed over in favor of upstart. (Hint: Has to do with licensing.)

I could go on all day with more examples of Apple deliberately locking in users into their apps, crippling open formats, crippling functionality in order to make users pay more on top of the Apple premium, and cheating the open source community...

To be fair, GIMP isn't all that open about their .xcf format, either.

[elvis]

Food for thought.

*Insightful stuff snipped*

All very good points.

Sometimes I wonder if the "Apple Philosophy" is universal throughout the company. It seems that project by project, department by department there are glaring differences in their approach to true openness. Their multimedia side is a blatant example of reject the core values of free software, yet their huge code contributions to some of their core OS features, compilers, web browsers, etc are certainly the polar opposite.

One could certainly argue Apple pick and choose their moral standpoint based entirely on how it affects them financially, or where the competition lies. Shake and Final Cut Pro are pretty unique, and open sourcing them would no doubt hurt their bottom line. Compare and contrast to Safari/KHTML/Konqueror and CUPS, where embracing open source doesn't infringe on their uniqueness (every OS can print and browse web pages, so no harm there).

Way back when MacOSX was first announced, I was pleasantly surprised to see their embrace of open source and hoped it would continue right throughout their product line. Now that the dust has settled and the OS itself has matured, I think we can all be certain that there are certain components that we'll never see opened up, and that's quite depressing.

[Rick 1]

I think Elvis is still in the building! :D People seem to be gradually peering deeper into this matter and uncovering the at times unsavoury truth. A few comments and questions; Alpha and Elvis seem to have already summed it up eloquently.
Their multimedia side is a blatant example of reject the core values of free software, yet their huge code contributions to some of their core OS features, compilers, web browsers, etc are certainly the polar opposite.
I think this too is part of the Headline Syndrome(tm). I would really like to know what Apple have contributed to GCC - for use by others that is. Objective-C has always been a proprietary language; Jobs struck a deal with inventor Brad Cox who came up with the language in 1983; my understanding is NeXT had an exclusive licence and the patent was absolutely not in the public domain as with most languages such as C by Dennis M Ritchie. Further and strange to say the least, the patent to Objective-C reverted to or was sold to Steve Jobs right before the ouvertures to Apple to effect a 'merger'. Strange, innit? And to this day the legal status of Objective-C is murky. Yet in the days of NeXT the developers tools - which today are included free on OS media and available for $20 S&H - cost US$10,000.

As for their contributions to 'web browsers': read instead what the KDE people think about this. Clue: 'they're not happy to say the least'. And what gets me personally is that they still haven't made a robust browser out of Safari after five years and many people either still discard the program as unreliable or gradually see too many bugs.
Way back when MacOSX was first announced, I was pleasantly surprised to see their embrace of open source and hoped it would continue right throughout their product line.
I think you were taken in by the hype. It's like a rock star visiting a small town and saying 'oh I've always loved the town - I always love coming back again'. Apple weren't embracing anything: according to the Street they were mere months from going **** up. Michael Dell suggested closing the company and refunding all the shareholders. NeXT saved their butt something ferocious. NeXT was very much open source - at least in the underpinnings - and this is what Apple 'bought' lock stock and barrel. They bought NeXTSTEP/OPENSTEP to save their butts - not because they had some ideals about open source. And if you follow Alpha's links to Rob Braun you will read the inside story (from a former Apple programmer) of how Apple exploited the buzzwords 'open' and 'source' to garner interest in the scientific and research communities - and you will also learn how hypocritical this posture really was, how 'Darwin' was never 'open', how it's always been impossible to build a clean 'Darwin' from scratch outside the company, etc etc etc. Not an uplifting tale to be sure but true still the same.
~ Instant death of warranty and AppleCare if you even modify one component right down to your HDD.
They also have this tradition of using different stock parts on every new hardware model. So ordinary screws from one model won't fit in another and so forth. Makes things very expensive. The IBM PC is in many ways an 'open source computer' - for whatever reason off the shelf components. You will never find Apple doing that. I believe this is because of Steve Jobs who yes very literally will not let anyone else play with his ball. And when you see them instructed to put bloody limericks in the kernel to beg people to not run their OS on anyone else's hardware you've most likely seen through Steve-0.

~ Apple's repeated refusal to initially acknowledge defects unless threatened with bad press or class-action lawsuits.
This is perhaps the worst. And it's not just this. This is only one aspect of it. How dare they put up a message board and then hire nannies to remove any posts critical of the company? Anytime someone has a serious hardware issue (appledefect.com) and it's posted at Apple it disappears. Anytime someone posts a remark about these posts being removed - they get removed too! How long is it going to take before consumers wake up?

Apple used to be the darlings of consumer organisations. They were regarded as perhaps the only good computer brand and one of the best brands all categories. And then, like it or not, Steve Jobs came back and was CEO of the company he co-founded for the first time. iTools was to always be free and Steve said so; then iTools turned into .Mac and cost money. Yours truly reminded readers of this fact at the Apple discussion forums and had the post removed. This alone made them 'bad boys' at the consumer organisations. But this was only the beginning. Soon hardware would begin to suffer. The panicky move to Intel coupled with reassignment of factory locations now in China where labour is so much cheaper - no one watched quality control. Steve-0 pushed the company through the transition, customers be damned. AppleDefects.com is testimony to how bad things got. We tend to forget these things over time but scandals such as thermal grease, Bridget Riley lines, mooing, whining, random shutdowns - yours truly was sent a very expensive 15 inch laptop that was DOA. You have no idea how scary that is. I dare say 'traumatic': for months afterwards you're on edge wondering when the computer you now have instead is going to do the same thing. And people worry about crashes on Windows and losing all their data? What's worse than the bloody hardware just shutting down?

I have a theory. Many people won't like it but if you read some of the comments by former Apple employees at Amazon for the books written about the company you will see the trend. And in particular a curious quote from Steve Jobs when asked how his new policies (1997 or thereabouts) would affect customers. And Steve's spontaneous reaction was 'the customers? **** 'em!' Think about that a moment. One lonely employee in Apple still considerate of what customers think poses a question to Steve-0 and Steve-0 derides Apple's stupid customers! Is it a true story? I don't know. We can't possibly know. But I think the 'attitude' expressed in that narrative sums up corporate policy for Apple rather accurately. Apple even today rely to an inordinate extent on their Guy Kawasaki constituency who will - as related facetiously at Urban Dictionary - tie C4 to their chests and run up and hug anyone who says bad things about their 'beloved' company and their fearless leader.

When things have gone this far it's not an objective discussion anymore and it's no longer a question of hardware and software quality. It's instead become a crash course in post graduate abnormal psychology. It is this constituency Apple have systematically played up to ever since Steve Jobs yanked the CEO position back in 1997 by dumping $250 million in Apple stock to undermine the company, scare the board of directors, and get a vote of confidence against the then current CEO so he could move back in.

This is big major leagues cutthroat business and politics. Jobs is a billionaire just like Gates. To some extent they're both criminals. But whilst Gates is a player and learned how to be second richest by playing with others (and screwing them when he feels like it) Jobs is totally obsessive. They're different types of personality. Gates is cool and calculating; Jobs is bipolar.

Jobs will never be open with his company. It is HIS company and he will never let go - only reluctantly. Gates is certainly no better but Jobs runs his show an entirely different way even if certain things appear to be similar. And Steve-0 is a pathological micromanager. To understand what's wrong with Apple as a corporation it's therefore necessary to understand what's wrong with Steve Jobs as a person. The open source gambit; the incessant censorship on discussion boards - where officially there are no more censors; the fanatical move to Intel and China despite the ludicrous level of hardware scandals unparalleled in the industry as a whole - all of this comes back to Steve Jobs.

And if you ever have the chance to meet anyone from upper management at Apple as I have you will see it all. Seriously: they all dress the same (jeans and sneakers and black polo) have the same haircut and two day designer beard. OK not all of them but a considerable portion of them - the ones you don't normally see. If people are walking around the corridors of One Infinite Loop like Barbie dolls (Ken dolls) trying so desperately to look like their bosses because they're intimidated by the stories about how people get sacked for merely voicing a contradictory opinion - then you know beyond a shadow of a doubt who really runs the company down in its moldiest seams.

Apple and open source? Who cares - it's a joke. Apple quality? Another joke. The failures of their Tiger are numbered in the hundreds of thousands. With Leopard approaching they're still getting something on the order of five thousand new bug reports per day, They're driven - by an obsessive manager who 1) wouldn't let Objective-C go in the public domain; 2) hired on David Hyatt from Camino but wouldn't play ball back with KDE the way KDE wanted them to; 3) made a shambolic sham out of their supposed 'embrace' of open source; 4) keeps a really stupid hardware lockin; 5) ignores customer complaints as Alpha says until class action suits threaten their complacency - see the Danish case for a very enlightening look into this matter; 6) tells programmers to put bloody limericks in the kernel begging people to not run the OS on anyone else's hardware platform even for fun; and 7) ostensibly caters to a Jonestown type cult to keep a 'brown shirt' army close by if ever needed.

Hate Apple? Who can hate Apple?

[Frak]

All I can see is somewhere in the EU, they will ban "Brown Shirts"/"Mac's" from being "Worn"/"Sold"

[Alfa989]

Well Apple is smart enough not to directly copy the dock, but what we're talking about is kind of "masking" the dock to where it doesn't look like the NeXT Dock, yet, contains much of the same functionality of the Dock.

But actually, the control strip hasn't got any Dock-like functionality...

[aletheianalex]

That is all the attitude of Apple/Jobs that I love and hate... and watch fervently like a rubbernecker on the highway. Honestly, you can take one of two stances:

1) OK, OK, we'll do whatever you (the consumer and developers) want, throw caution to the wind, make the changes as we go and hope that our company lands on it's feet every time it falls down a flight of stairs...

2) **** you, I started this company in my garage, built it into an empire against all odds and I am going to do things MY way so if you don't like it: don't buy it and if you don't want to play cutthroat hardball with the big-boys, then get out of the way because you are in the wrong line of work.

So naturally, the implications of #2 are that is a 3rd party developer makes a product that catches the company's eye their choice it to either 1) work with them by giving them under strict guidelines if they show promise in a way/area that you are not interested in directly developing in-house 2) bring them onboard and control their direction if they DO show promise/innovation/functionality in a way/area that you are interested in DIRECTLY developing or incoroprating into the core of your system, or 3) buy/squash them out of existence if they don't fall in line with the vision of the company/threaten the company

The Nazi metaphor has been alluded to several times here... that only applies to a closed system: not a free market. If it were a monopoly, then by all means, let the metaphors fly, but buying into a closed system and then complaining about it's 'closed-ness'... well there is a Logical Conundrum if I ever saw one: which is why I am surrounded by half a dozen different machines running dozens of different OS'es, but my main preference is clear since I am typing this post on a Mac Mini dual booting OSX or Ubuntu.

[aletheianalex]

But actually, the control strip hasn't got any Dock-like functionality...

Yes, the Control Strip is not a dock and was not intended to be. It will only launch CSM modules and nothing else, and was intended as quick access to primarily hardware control panels, but also some software control panels.

[pan69]

I don't "hate" Apple either. I don't like them though and thats mainly because how the company philosophy (land grab) and the religious following they have.

I do have problems with MacOSX though. I've been working on MacOSX for a couple of months now (due to work) and I must say it's the most horrible UI I ever had to work with. Besides the fact that I feel completely patronized by Apple's philosophy towards its users in not given them a choice about so many things (make it my choice to show hidden files in Finder!) the UI seems just quirky and unfinished. One example, from the top of head, the other day I copied MP3 files to the hard drive. I had an artist whose albums where stored on two different DVD's. When I copied the second folder (same artist name) MacOSX couldn't add to that folder. No, instead it could overwrite that folder or not copy at all (imagine there where several artist like this). There is heaps of stupid stuff like that on a day by day basis. Don't get me started on the damn mouse acceleration / declaration!

No I don't like MacOSX and I personally think that Windows has a much better, friendlier and approachable UI then MacOSX. Of course, my nr.1 choice is Ubuntu with Gnome... :)

[Chrisj303]

I couldn't give a monkeys about OSX not being open source, In fact i couldn't give a damn about ANY software being open source or not.

I don't care if Microsoft and/or Apple are nasty monopolizing organizations that *gasp* copyright there work.


I use my computer to get stuff done . All I care about is the quality and stability of the software I use, and the hardware I run it on. And for me, OSX fits the bill perfectly.

Apple make some truly outstanding software - Logic Studio/ Final Cut Pro, anyone?

And when coupled with the tight OS/Hardware integration, you have a workstation that for me, is unparalleled.

[Frak]

I believe the same people who developed Logic Studio/Final Cut Pro before Apple bought them, still work for Apple to develop them to this day.

[Chrisj303]

I believe the same people who developed Logic Studio/Final Cut Pro before Apple bought them, still work for Apple to develop them to this day.


Final Cut has nothing to do with Macromedia (it's initial developers) anymore.

I believe the Logic development team still contains ex-Emagic guy's amongst it's ranks, but it is very much an Apple software..

[alex1966]

Why do we dislike Stivie boy better than Bill?
Bill's stuff is available for kids at school due to it's not open source nature-bunch of manufacturers are able to compete to provide us with a choice of hardware. That's why Jobs i not as reach as half of Microsoft's staff. Let me know if you ever see mac power book pro or whatever in your local school.
regards

[Frak]

There are 10 Macs in the School I work for. 4 in Entertainment, 2 in Sports Entertainment Marketing, and 2 in Special Education, 2 in Intro to Programming.

[alex1966]

No kidding, I have 20 of those-junk.

[alex1966]

But thank you, sir.

[Chrisj303]

Why do we dislike Stivie boy better than Bill?
Bill's stuff is available for kids at school due to it's not open source nature-bunch of manufacturers are able to compete to provide us with a choice of hardware. That's why Jobs i not as reach as half of Microsoft's staff. Let me know if you ever see mac power book pro or whatever in your local school.
regards

The suite were I did my Uni course, has almost 20 Mac Pro's. We also have access to Mac laptops when needed.

[NoSmokingBandit]

apple hates to give the end-user choice. You must use their hardware and you used to have to use their os on their hardware until they made the revolutionary new concept of 'bootcamp'... but wait, hasnt dual-booting been around since FOREVER!??! OSX is the complete polar opposite of linux in terms of open/closed source. Windows has a good medium stance. I dont see why some linux users prefer osx to xp when they bitch about xp not being customizable. I also hate the new osx 10.5. The 'revolutionary new features' are not new and not revolutionary. Workspaces have been around since the dark ages, time machine is a shiny version of window's system restore, stacks are a copy of stardock's flyout menus (i dont care that stardock copied the dock, they at least recognize it as a copy instead of something great). Not to mention that most of these new features could easilty be dont through an update.

[Frak]

apple hates to give the end-user choice. You must use their hardware and you used to have to use their os on their hardware until they made the revolutionary new concept of 'bootcamp'... but wait, hasnt dual-booting been around since FOREVER!??! OSX is the complete polar opposite of linux in terms of open/closed source. Windows has a good medium stance. I dont see why some linux users prefer osx to xp when they bitch about xp not being customizable. I also hate the new osx 10.5. The 'revolutionary new features' are not new and not revolutionary. Workspaces have been around since the dark ages, time machine is a shiny version of window's system restore, stacks are a copy of stardock's flyout menus (i dont care that stardock copied the dock, they at least recognize it as a copy instead of something great). Not to mention that most of these new features could easilty be dont through an update.
I just hate the design period, they had it good with the Aqua backgrounds, flat dock (no fancy glass junk) and the "Vista" like transparent MenuBar.

I've used the 10.5 Developer Edition and it is much better than what they are putting out now. (10.5 with the 10.4 UI)

[NoSmokingBandit]

yeah, apple is once again moving toward something thats shinier but less functional. Of course, vista is doing the same thing for alot of its features. Operating systems are getting too big. I like that liux is powerful and completely customizable and it fits on one cd. OSX is a complete lockdown, is only powerful because they use bsd, and takes up a whole dvd.

[the.dark.lord]

yeah, apple is once again moving toward something thats shinier but less functional. Of course, vista is doing the same thing for alot of its features. Operating systems are getting too big. I like that liux is powerful and completely customizable and it fits on one cd. OSX is a complete lockdown, is only powerful because they use bsd, and takes up a whole dvd.

Correction! 2 DVDs.

[the.dark.lord]

Speaking of OS X... what are the rumors about Leopard's release date?

[NoSmokingBandit]

who knows? Sometime this month i guess. People get pissed at MS for missing deadlines but they dont get pissed at apple for not even giving us a deadline... I kinda hate how its the cool thing to hate all that ms does and praise apple for what they do, even when its the same thing.
I'll try leopard when it has been hacked by the osx86 team. Hopefully we could have more drivers for it then.

[Frak]

who knows? Sometime this month i guess. People get pissed at MS for missing deadlines but they dont get pissed at apple for not even giving us a deadline... I kinda hate how its the cool thing to hate all that ms does and praise apple for what they do, even when its the same thing.
I'll try leopard when it has been hacked by the osx86 team. Hopefully we could have more drivers for it then.
That's why they don't have a definate date, so they cannot be yelled at for missing it.

And osx86 turk team has already hacked "The Big Cat" (Hint, Hint, Hint ;))

[NoSmokingBandit]

oh crap, i need to find then then, eh?

[Frak]

oh crap, i need to find then then, eh?
Yep

[benhagerty]

I don't really like apple, the only reason I would buy a mac is to do multi media editing which I am going to need to do soon when I put out my demo tape heh

[Frak]

I don't really like apple, the only reason I would buy a mac is to do multi media editing which I am going to need to do soon when I put out my demo tape heh
Try JackLab or Ubuntu-Studio

[NoSmokingBandit]

Audacity is all you need to record. I've done a few songs myself on it and it sounds great if you know what you are doing. Granted, i used it in windows because i could never get it to work in ubuntu. I'll give it another try once Gusty is out.

[alex1966]

Gentleman,

Thank you for your response.Ubuntu remains my OS choice for development testing troubleshooting of my projects.

That is, whenever possible

MCP
MCSE
CCNA
3COM elite partner:)

[Chrisj303]

Try JackLab or Ubuntu-Studio

Both are laughably bad when stood shoulder to shoulder with the best that OSX/Windows has to offer.

Same with audacity....

[TheWizzard]

Both are laughably bad when stood shoulder to shoulder with the best that OSX/Windows has to offer.

Same with audacity....

bullocks.

[Frak]

Both are laughably bad when stood shoulder to shoulder with the best that OSX/Windows has to offer.

Same with audacity....
ehem, you have to try them first. They are "bad" because they solve the problem with various other methods.

[Chrisj303]

ehem, you have to try them first. They are "bad" because they solve the problem with various other methods.


I have tried them and I stand by my statement, they are laughably bad.

* I use Logic studio, Final Cut Pro and Peak Pro 5, BTW.

[Chrisj303]

.

[Frak]

I have tried them and I stand by my statement, they are laughably bad.

* I use Logic studio, Final Cut Pro and Peak Pro 5, BTW.
OK, then, you don't know how to use them. It is possible to come up with the exact same results with both. It has been done.

[NoSmokingBandit]

You dont need expensive programs to get a good sound. If someone has to rely on the software to get a good recording then they just suck at it.

[Chrisj303]

OK, then, you don't know how to use them. It is possible to come up with the exact same results with both. It has been done.

I take it you've never used Logic Studio/Final Cut then?


@nosmokingbandit

Quality software instruments are vital when working solely in a computer based enviroment.

So is a pukka EQ section.

Does ubuntustudio have a "NODE" protocol equal?

How about the REWIRE protocol?

Compatibility with MIDI controllers, external soundcards?

Are you really saying that Ubuntustudio is as good as Logic/Pro-Tools etc ?



There is a lot more to computer-based music production, then just getting a good sound - which I didn't actually say ubuntustudio was incapable of, but compared to Logic, well - it's a bit of a joke.

[Frak]

I take it you've never used Logic Studio/Final Cut then?


@nosmokingbandit

Quality software instruments are vital when working solely in a computer based enviroment.

So is a pukka EQ section.

Does ubuntustudio have a "NODE" protocol equal?

How about the REWIRE protocol?

Compatibility with MIDI controllers, external soundcards?

Are you really saying that Ubuntustudio is as good as Logic/Pro-Tools etc ?



There is a lot more to computer-based music production, then just getting a good sound - which I didn't actually say ubuntustudio was incapable of, but compared to Logic, well - it's a bit of a joke.
I own a copy of both. I've used them, and they aren't bad. Yes, I would prefer LS or FC over UStudio or JackLab, but US and JL are still very good distributions. They hit the nail on the head on what they do, and they do it just fine.

[NoSmokingBandit]

I have used Cakewalk as well as Cubase. Most of the upper-end features are nice and convenient, but if you cant get a good sound from your mic then something is going wrong before the signal even hits the soundcard. Some EQ's in the mixing process are vital as the balance everything out, but anything much more that that is overkill. If you need 'verb on the vox, get some true analog reverb going on , dont resort to cold digital junk. You shouldnt need fancy protocols to get good sound. The Beatles recorded their music with minimal technology, and you cant say their quality was sub-par.

[linuxjuicer]

i own an ib00k g4 ppc w/leopard. its awesome. apple support when not under the warranty can be expensive though. i fried my logic board and paid 350$ to get it fixed :(

[yaztromo]

Well I'm surprised it seems I'm the only one who have a problem with Apple's attitude.

I don't really understand why one wouldn't like Microsoft but like the more self centered and less cooperative Apple company.

Oh well...

The threads too big to read fully, but I want quote this for truth.

I hate the way Apple restricts what hardware you can use, at least Ubuntu and Windows will let you install (well attempt) on any hardware. Apple is total and utter vendor lock in, and if they had more market share than MS you better believe they would be more hated than MS.

As an after thought I don't like seeing smug people sat in Starbucks with their Macs either :)

[elgoog]

GUYS GUYS GUYS. NAD GALSSSSSS.
you need to our friends at Apple some credit. Had it not been for them, we would never have had COMPIZ FUSION. So I think we have UBUNTU, something which has pros of both windows and apple OS. In a couple of years companies will start making drivers for linux because they know its the future. If I owned a Wifi Device developing company, I would rather let the community develop the software from the original 'free' code rather than spend millions on RnD.

[Alfa989]

I hate the way Apple restricts what hardware you can use, at least Ubuntu and Windows will let you install (well attempt) on any hardware. Apple is total and utter vendor lock in, and if they had more market share than MS you better believe they would be more hated than MS./QUOTE]
so according to you, any product is an example of vendor lock-in? :rolleyes: :P

[QUOTE=yaztromo;4932367]
As an after thought I don't like seeing smug people sat in Starbucks with their Macs either :)
What? Mac users are smug? ... No comment :D

[Frak]

GUYS GUYS GUYS. NAD GALSSSSSS.
you need to our friends at Apple some credit. Had it not been for them, we would never have had COMPIZ FUSION. So I think we have UBUNTU, something which has pros of both windows and apple OS. In a couple of years companies will start making drivers for linux because they know its the future. If I owned a Wifi Device developing company, I would rather let the community develop the software from the original 'free' code rather than spend millions on RnD.
Compiz Fusion follows Vista's Aero more than anything nowadays.

[the8thstar]

I tried OSX86 on my config. It worked fine. Then I uninstalled it.

Why?

Because I don't see the point of having Apple software when you have Ubuntu (or any GNU/Linux) and Vista already there doing an excellent job for you. Plus the GUI is boring, and the human interface is not more human-oriented than other OSes.

My advice if you're an average Linux user like me, considering buying Apple: DON'T. Not worth your time and your MONEY. Not that I'm against closed-source or 'commercial software', but this OS doesn't beat Ubuntu or FreeBSD 7.0 with Gnome, or Vista even. The only thing Apple has is a nice design for their boxes and some nice editing software if you want to make home movies. Not enough to impress me still.

Their sales people speech is crappy too. Only a noob could fall for that.

Feel free to comment if you wish. This is only MY opinion.

[Frak]

I tried OSX86 on my config. It worked fine. Then I uninstalled it.

Why?

Because I don't see the point of having Apple software when you have Ubuntu (or any GNU/Linux) and Vista already there doing an excellent job for you. Plus the GUI is boring, and the human interface is not more human-oriented than other OSes.

My advice if you're an average Linux user like me, considering buying Apple: DON'T. Not worth your time and your MONEY. Not that I'm against closed-source or 'commercial software', but this OS doesn't beat Ubuntu or FreeBSD 7.0 with Gnome, or Vista even. The only thing Apple has is a nice design for their boxes and some nice editing software if you want to make home movies. Not enough to impress me still.

Their sales people speech is crappy too. Only a noob could fall for that.

Feel free to comment if you wish. This is only MY opinion.
Some of us are required to use Apple machines. Plus, they do have some very nice ideas coming out of it (Time machine and remote network drive for instance).

I now help teach a multimedia class, and what I've found is a strong demand in the field of using Final Cut Pro (much of the motion pictures are edited with it). Therefore, we are provided grants to buy Macintosh workstations with FCP installed (with educational discount, around $1,400 per station).

[the8thstar]

Some of us are required to use Apple machines. Plus, they do have some very nice ideas coming out of it (Time machine and remote network drive for instance).

I now help teach a multimedia class, and what I've found is a strong demand in the field of using Final Cut Pro (much of the motion pictures are edited with it). Therefore, we are provided grants to buy Macintosh workstations with FCP installed (with educational discount, around $1,400 per station).

Final Cut Pro is the software I was talking about. I'm not denying Apple or Mac fanboys the right to live, I'm just saying that AVERAGE users like me don't need all that jazz.

As a personal shopper, I would never waste $1,400 of my money on an Apple station. Your situation is different than mine and it makes sense for your organization, so that's all that matters.

[Istonian]

Yeah, the only thing Macs are good for IMO is video editing. I really do not see any other point in getting a Mac. I never do any video editing. Therefore, I have no use for a Mac. I used Macs everyday for one year at school. I got bored with them fast. I couldn't play any movies that were not Quicktime it seemed like. Probably an error on my part for not getting codecs. I couldn't anyway because they belonged to the school. The funny thing is now all the Macs run Boot Camp so most people use Windows with them now. I don't use them at all anymore because I have a laptop.

[reclusivemonkey]

A few months back my main machine started to encounter problems. It was quite a few years old and I had to upgrade. I've managed for a few years to upgrade parts of my machine, but I would need a new CPU (dual-core), ram, motherboard, graphics card, hard drive; in short I needed a new machine basically. I'd been self building for many years now so I could get a relatively cheap system but I was really tempted by a Mac Mini. OSX looked fantastic and now that I have a two year old son I simply don't have time to spend getting things to work. I wanted to be able to make DVDs of the movies I was taking of him easily, to be able to manage my thousands of photos of him. The photo management was not too bad in Ubuntu, but DVDs were a nightmare; I had spent months trying to follow the hundreds of different tutorials out there using a multitude of applications to get it done. I bit the bullet and ordered the top tier Mac Mini with 2Gb of RAM.

I am SO happy I did. The Mac Mini is a fantastic piece of kit. Small and compact it is much better for me than a tower as it has much more power than my previous machine but it sits on my desk on shelf out of the way of tiny hands which love to turn things off. Its virtually silent, far more so than any machine I could of built myself. OSX looks great and iLife makes it REALLY easy to do everything I need to. Quicksilver is the greatest piece of software I have ever used and I now spend all my time on my computer just doing the things I want to do; I spend zero time fixing things/trying to get things to work.

I still use Ubuntu; Mythbuntu sits in my lounge and works great. However I have been using MythTV for a couple of years now and have spent ten years building and repairing computers and about eight years using Linux. Without that there is no way I would be able to get it working. I am glad I had this time as it means I know my way around computers and if you want a fine degree of control over what happens on your computer there is no alternative to Linux. However if you can afford it, and just want to do fairly simple and fun things on your computer, Apple/Mac OSX is the way to go.

[cardinals_fan]

GUYS GUYS GUYS. NAD GALSSSSSS.
you need to our friends at Apple some credit. Had it not been for them, we would never have had COMPIZ FUSION. So I think we have UBUNTU, something which has pros of both windows and apple OS. In a couple of years companies will start making drivers for linux because they know its the future. If I owned a Wifi Device developing company, I would rather let the community develop the software from the original 'free' code rather than spend millions on RnD.
Why are you saying that I should give Apple any credit?

[Frak]

Yeah, the only thing Macs are good for IMO is video editing. I really do not see any other point in getting a Mac. I never do any video editing. Therefore, I have no use for a Mac. I used Macs everyday for one year at school. I got bored with them fast. I couldn't play any movies that were not Quicktime it seemed like. Probably an error on my part for not getting codecs. I couldn't anyway because they belonged to the school. The funny thing is now all the Macs run Boot Camp so most people use Windows with them now. I don't use them at all anymore because I have a laptop.
I'm still fond of Sony Vegas and Adobe Premiere Pro (which, by the way, looks A LOT like Final Cut). Mainly because I can use them while I'm in XP or Vista.

[imac_89]

How do I express my joys of using OS X without sounding like an obnoxious nerd? Well that sums it up. I have had chances to use Ubuntu (using it now) and Windows (mixed with Novell as well), out of them all, Linux and OS X I have found most enjoyable.

In the end, each has their own place and special talents.

[bashveank]

I bought a MacBook Pro about a week ago and, so far, I love it. It has the super-powerful guts of a Unix like OS, a good interface, and seriously amazing apps.

[Dark-Ace]

Well for me...I would go Windows,Linux and then Apple...but the reason i am doing thi as such is even tough windows may not be the greatest ever, i feel that i hardly et problems with it and run smoothly with it but also since its been my all life OS and Linux bcause of its free and open source apps and also its freedom of running it through mny other things which i run through MokaFive and Apple is last because although its more stable then Windows, I really don't come to a liking with it although i use it 24/7 only at school, I say that it's good.(Long sentence)

[Frak]

Am I the only one that finds that while OS X is incredibly stable, most of iLife and iWork is not? (iMovie HD crashes on me on a tri-daily basis, or every 3 days, anymore)

[nikkiana]

I started out my computer life as a Windows user, and eventually migrated to Ubuntu and bought a Mac because there were a few Windows apps I kinda missed that were available for Mac as well and it seemed like a better purchase at the time (and undoubtedly it was) but... I just have never found OS X to be very intuitive personally... and I think in many ways, it's workflow has been very counterproductive in my struggles with my ADHD...

It's the dock.

Look at your average Linux distro with Gnome or KDE or Xfce as the desktop... or even Windows for that matter... Unless you've moved things around, what's at the bottom of the screen? A little bar with all the windows of the programs you have open. If you have a lot of programs open, it gets cluttered really fast.

In OS X, we have the dock. The dock serves two purposes... One, a place for shortcuts to programs that you use often. Two, a place for shortcuts to programs that are currently open... and there's a very small visual indicator as to what's a currently active program and what's not.

This is a problem because I have a tendancy to open up LOTS of programs at once and then never close them because my dock never gets cluttered. Since I use the same programs all the time, there are never any additional icons in the dock. So all of the sudden, all of my programs are open, I've got 20 tabs openin Firefox and all of the sudden I'm getting the beachball of doom because I've used up all my memory because I've opened up a TON of programs all at once because I'm not making a mess of my desktop.

Um.. yeah. The dock might make that bottom section of my desktop look pretty, but it's not very practical.

[Frak]

I started out my computer life as a Windows user, and eventually migrated to Ubuntu and bought a Mac because there were a few Windows apps I kinda missed that were available for Mac as well and it seemed like a better purchase at the time (and undoubtedly it was) but... I just have never found OS X to be very intuitive personally... and I think in many ways, it's workflow has been very counterproductive in my struggles with my ADHD...

It's the dock.

Look at your average Linux distro with Gnome or KDE or Xfce as the desktop... or even Windows for that matter... Unless you've moved things around, what's at the bottom of the screen? A little bar with all the windows of the programs you have open. If you have a lot of programs open, it gets cluttered really fast.

In OS X, we have the dock. The dock serves two purposes... One, a place for shortcuts to programs that you use often. Two, a place for shortcuts to programs that are currently open... and there's a very small visual indicator as to what's a currently active program and what's not.

This is a problem because I have a tendancy to open up LOTS of programs at once and then never close them because my dock never gets cluttered. Since I use the same programs all the time, there are never any additional icons in the dock. So all of the sudden, all of my programs are open, I've got 20 tabs openin Firefox and all of the sudden I'm getting the beachball of doom because I've used up all my memory because I've opened up a TON of programs all at once because I'm not making a mess of my desktop.

Um.. yeah. The dock might make that bottom section of my desktop look pretty, but it's not very practical.
I think Bruce Tognazzini wrote something about this. Very informative.

[stream303]

At least OSX provides a bash shell, vim and nano. You can get your geek on and get a little practice to see if you like the commandline if/when you are ready to install the real thing like Hardy on your iMac.

I ran Apple's X11 and found the whole fink thing frustrating. Why not just do it right with a real Linux install? And I still keep OSX stuffed in a drawer on an external firewire drive if I ever need to do a firmware upgrade...

[asaz989]

I like Apple a lot better than Microsoft. And I know, they're even worse about DRM and locking you in to their hardware, but you know what?

It WORKS. I can give in to them, and the software will work about 100% of the time, unlike the sh**ty experience I get out of Windows (Vista AND XP). I'd say it's an anti-Linux - very little customization, very little choice, and they pull all of the advantages out of it that they can, just like the diversity of Linux distributions pulls all of the advantages out of not being tied down to any particular implementation, even down to the basic infrastructure like file browser.

[Frak]

At least OSX provides a bash shell, vim and nano. You can get your geek on and get a little practice to see if you like the commandline if/when you are ready to install the real thing like Hardy on your iMac.

I ran Apple's X11 and found the whole fink thing frustrating. Why not just do it right with a real Linux install? And I still keep OSX stuffed in a drawer on an external firewire drive if I ever need to do a firmware upgrade...
Have you tried MacPorts?

[Dark-Ace]

Well i hate to say it but i don't really like Macs that much,I mean sure they are easier to operate and are quite good machines but for me...i'd go with Windows and Linux 99.99% of the time since i like a challenge but really i am equal in this OS war with them all ties for 1st....And yes i have used all OS's.....Mac at school, Windows at home, Linux virtualized at home.

[reclusivemonkey]

Am I the only one that finds that while OS X is incredibly stable, most of iLife and iWork is not? (iMovie HD crashes on me on a tri-daily basis, or every 3 days, anymore)

I've used the latest iMovie ('08) a lot and its never crashed once on my machine. Dashboard client (whatever that is!) and quicksilver are the only things I have noticed crashing.

[Megacherv]

I've used all, and Mac OS X is alot better than Windows. The only problem is that, and I quote, "...the file system is totally messed up...". I have no idea what is executable and what is readable. However, it is the fastest OS I've used.

[stream303]

Have you tried MacPorts?

I did early on, and just thought that if I wanted to emulate a more classic *nix environment, it was better just to devote the whole machine to Linux / BSD etc.

[Frak]

I've used all, and Mac OS X is alot better than Windows. The only problem is that, and I quote, "...the file system is totally messed up...". I have no idea what is executable and what is readable. However, it is the fastest OS I've used.
1. The filesystem is somewhat identical to Ext3. (Not completely identical, as there are some huge differences, but mostly the same)

2. DMG is a Disk image, or Apple Encrypted HFS+ Image. This is much like an ISO file.

3. ZIP images may contain a DMG file for extra compression. Safari auto-deompresses the ZIP and automounts the DMG.

4. Executables have an icon but no extension. They are actually folders with a .app extension that, when read, use the corresponding icon and have scripts within the folder to start the program.

5. DMG files are read-only by default, but if you have rights to the file, you can add write to them in the Disk Utility or running disk-utils.

EDIT

6. .pkg files are installer files.

7. When a dmg is decompressed, move the contents into your Applications (Clover + A)

[C!oud]

Had to use MACs in school and for some reason just never was a pleasurable experience for me. I know a lot of people say that MAC is supposed to be easy to use and such but for me I still prefer windows over MAC and of course Linux over them all :). Probably a little biased answer though because I have never used it at home just a school for a bunch of various things so in a way I am kind of neutral on the topic although Apple laptops do look pretty sweet but damn expensive....

[cardinals_fan]

Had to use MACs in school and for some reason just never was a pleasurable experience for me. I know a lot of people say that MAC is supposed to be easy to use and such but for me I still prefer windows over MAC and of course Linux over them all :). Probably a little biased answer though because I have never used it at home just a school for a bunch of various things so in a way I am kind of neutral on the topic although Apple laptops do look pretty sweet but damn expensive....
I agree, but you don't need to capitalise Mac. It's just an abbreviated Macintosh.

[RDL89]

I work in tech support for Apple (outsourced of course). Perhaps I spend all day dealing with the problems and people who don't know what they are doing, but I think I'll stick with dual booting xp and Ubuntu.

[reclusivemonkey]

I've used all, and Mac OS X is alot better than Windows. The only problem is that, and I quote, "...the file system is totally messed up...". I have no idea what is executable and what is readable. However, it is the fastest OS I've used.

ls -l will tell you exactly what is executable and what is readable, just as in Linux. A lot of command line tools that are available in Linux are there in Mac OS X too. Its very handy to be able to ssh into my MythTV box.

[Alfa989]

I started out my computer life as a Windows user, and eventually migrated to Ubuntu and bought a Mac because there were a few Windows apps I kinda missed that were available for Mac as well and it seemed like a better purchase at the time (and undoubtedly it was) but... I just have never found OS X to be very intuitive personally... and I think in many ways, it's workflow has been very counterproductive in my struggles with my ADHD...

It's the dock.

Look at your average Linux distro with Gnome or KDE or Xfce as the desktop... or even Windows for that matter... Unless you've moved things around, what's at the bottom of the screen? A little bar with all the windows of the programs you have open. If you have a lot of programs open, it gets cluttered really fast.

In OS X, we have the dock. The dock serves two purposes... One, a place for shortcuts to programs that you use often. Two, a place for shortcuts to programs that are currently open... and there's a very small visual indicator as to what's a currently active program and what's not.

This is a problem because I have a tendancy to open up LOTS of programs at once and then never close them because my dock never gets cluttered. Since I use the same programs all the time, there are never any additional icons in the dock. So all of the sudden, all of my programs are open, I've got 20 tabs openin Firefox and all of the sudden I'm getting the beachball of doom because I've used up all my memory because I've opened up a TON of programs all at once because I'm not making a mess of my desktop.

Um.. yeah. The dock might make that bottom section of my desktop look pretty, but it's not very practical.

Use Command+Q :)

That should solve your problem :P

[MJ Britt]

I use both... I love my Mac, but use the Kubuntu box more and more each day.

I have an iBook G3 that does everything and I sync it daily with my iPhone. The Kubuntu box is a Toshiba Satellite L45 that I have had to tweak to get it working with linux. The ATHEROS wifi card and the Intel HDA sound card were a royal pain in my **** to get working with Kubuntu, but I love it.

Micro$oft $ucks bad! Hate it, can't stand vista.

Thanks for listening,
M

[edward4130]

I don't hate apple I use them and linux. All are tools, you use the best for the job.

MS has no open source projects that they contribute to, Apple has more than 20. Of course Sun has even more, SGI less.

To bash Apple for making a hardware and software closed system is silly, the closed system makes it easier to keep consistency and stability.

Exactly why Windoz doesn't work very well, other peoples hardware and no control over drivers of 3rd party, Most of a crashing MS Windows system was written by the lowest bidder or outsourced from hardware. Windoz can work well and has benefits, it can be stable if you have quality hardware. Windoz also has more software available than any other OS, most of it junk but still more.

I love Apple, they make nice stuff. I love linux, you can do really interesting things when you have the time and patience to learn it. Windoz is what it is, slow buggy and hard to customize and do cool things without spending a bundle. Ma will cost you a bundle to do cool things because your software will be limited.

Back to the top ( TOOLS )
Use the right tool for the job.
Educate the idiots from continuing to use a rock (windows) when a hammer (linux) is in the toolbox. Or if they want they can purchase an expensive but beautifully designed nail-gun(Apple) to get the job done.

[Frak]

MS has no open source projects that they contribute to...

Open Source at Microsoft (http://www.microsoft.com/opensource/default.mspx)

Believe it or not, Microsoft does participate in Open Source.

[Xerp]

I quite like Mac OS X. Much like any OS it has bad bits too :) It works quite well for lots of things. I still prefer Linux though.

[theumang]

What Bad bits are you ppl talkyn about ?

I haven't seen any...

Apple rocks all the way, its EEEEAAASSY to use, easier than Ubuntu..

am so confused when am looking for something on ubuntu, for example if I want to sync photos to my ipod, there are so many options & none work..

[Frak]

What Bad bits are you ppl talkyn about ?

I haven't seen any...

Apple rocks all the way, its EEEEAAASSY to use, easier than Ubuntu..

am so confused when am looking for something on ubuntu, for example if I want to sync photos to my ipod, there are so many options & none work..
Remember that Apple has only decided to support OS X and Windows, therefore, iPod support in Linux is still buggy.

Bad bits refers to the downfalls of an Operating System. Linux has its downfalls in available applications and hardware support, Windows has its downfalls in the security and high-end stability areas (Servers for instance), and OS X has its downfalls in available applications, hardware support (restricted), and heavy use of DRM in their systems.

Bad bits, they all have them.

[aysiu]

Here are a couple of examples of bad bits I've seen, not to mention the fact that my wife has never been able to get WPA working properly, either on her Powerbook or her Macbook Pro:
My wife "dist-upgraded" to Tiger and it messed up her user profile... (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=80341)
Macs are just computers, not magic (http://ubuntucat.wordpress.com/2007/06/11/macs-are-just-computers-not-magic/)

She still has had an overall positive experience with Macs and loves Macs, but to pretend there are no bad bits to Mac OS X... I just don't get how people can do that.

[Frak]

I'm certain WPA isn't possible, because I too have tried and just decided to switch to (albeit less secure) WEP.

[aysiu]

I'm certain WPA isn't possible, because I too have tried and just decided to switch to (albeit less secure) WEP.
Yeah, that's what she ended up doing on both her laptops (first the Powerbook, then the Macbook Pro). Believe me, we Googled, and there is no satisfactory solution to this problem. WPA will work for a little bit, but the connection will constantly drop. WPA2 just won't work at all.

[Frak]

Yeah, that's what she ended up doing on both her laptops (first the Powerbook, then the Macbook Pro). Believe me, we Googled, and there is no satisfactory solution to this problem. WPA will work for a little bit, but the connection will constantly drop. WPA2 just won't work at all.
Do you have an airport or a generic access point? I've seen WPA work over the newer 802.11n airports, but that's about it.

[aysiu]

Do you have an airport or a generic access point? I've seen WPA work over the newer 802.11n airports, but that's about it.
You mean one of these?
http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/

We have a D-Link router.

[Frak]

You mean one of these?
http://www.apple.com/airportextreme/

We have a D-Link router.
Yes, that's it.

I have a Linksys that only works over WEP. So I'm sure its not router specific.

[aysiu]

Yes, that's it.

I have a Linksys that only works over WEP. So I'm sure its not router specific.
It's not the router's problem at all, as WPA2 worked just fine for me with Ubuntu.

[Frak]

It's not the router's problem at all, as WPA2 worked just fine for me with Ubuntu.
I just see it as another way of getting Apple to get people to buy overpriced hardware.

[aysiu]

I just see it as another way of getting Apple to get people to buy overpriced hardware.
Ah, so it might be deliberate. Tricky.

[R_T_H]

I despise Apple more than Windows! *eye starts twitching with anger*. And I don't even know why. I think it's because they claim to be the pleasant people in the OS wars, and they lie!

And I hate iPods because they're just a tool of control and fashion - Sony (no more Sonic Stage :))or Creative Zen are the way forward.

At least Windows is open in their evilness, whereas Apple are subversive.

[/rant]

[Alfa989]

I despise Apple more than Windows! *eye starts twitching with anger*. And I don't even know why. I think it's because they claim to be the pleasant people in the OS wars, and they lie!
Why do you think they lie?

And I hate iPods because they're just a tool of control and fashion - Sony (no more Sonic Stage :))or Creative Zen are the way forward.
No. They are a tool for listening to your music library on the go without much hassle.

At least Windows is open in their evilness, whereas Apple are subversive.
Why subversive?

[Ejas12]

I am a rookie with linux systems, but I really like Apple products,just because they are very good, contrary to MS

[garyedwardjohnston]

I am a bit curious to know why most Linux users dislike Apple even worse than Microsoft. Is it because all of their hardware and software is not 100% free and Open Source and stealable, or is it because they have Microsoft support, or they own the most popular UNIX derivative and "are taking up our UNIX space"? :confused:

Apple is just overpriced fashion. I can get twice the computer for half the price. It just doesn't have a blue apple on it.

Microsoft support??? When has anyone received support from them. Oh wait sorry, I remember someone telling me you can call them for $100. LOL.

Taking up Unix space??? What does that mean?

[gameryoshi600]

I am actually a:
Linux fan
Nintendo fan
and
an Apple fan

[L815]

I don't like apple(the company) for a few simple reasons.
They are more proprietary than Windows. It's good for the user because they are guaranteed their machines will work, but they also do it to have you buy more of their products for updates, software etc... (theoretically of course :P)

Also because their overpriced bubbles of goo. *Cool my machine looks like a space ship! .... 1 year later.. damn I have to upgrade from this list?!

I like freedom of Hardware, freedom to design my machine MY WAY. :)

[jrusso2]

I think Linux could learn a lot about how to make a desktop operating system that anyone can use by looking at OS X and implementing some of the things they have done.

[aysiu]

I think Linux could learn a lot about how to make a desktop operating system that anyone can use by looking at OS X and implementing some of the things they have done.
Like moving for more preinstallation and recommended hardware, yes. Having physical stores to sell the computers in, too, would help. I'd buy from a Ubuntu Store just as much as my wife would buy from an Apple Store.

[karellen]

Apple is just overpriced fashion. I can get twice the computer for half the price. It just doesn't have a blue apple on it.

Microsoft support??? When has anyone received support from them. Oh wait sorry, I remember someone telling me you can call them for $100. LOL.

Taking up Unix space??? What does that mean?

I subscribe to this

[jrusso2]

Like moving for more preinstallation and recommended hardware, yes. Having physical stores to sell the computers in, too, would help. I'd buy from a Ubuntu Store just as much as my wife would buy from an Apple Store.

Well they also do a couple more things that are really good like the software install, the replacement video system for X, which really needs replacement, and installation of drivers.

[aev]

I will probably repeat known things - apple has even worse proprietory software issues than micorsoft when it comes to installing non-apple stuff and their monopoly over their hardware and software is huge. Beside that, lunix is the best so far when it comes to multitasking - apple is slow.
Linux rocks!:guitar:

[Alfa989]

Apple has even worse proprietory software issues than micorsoft when it comes to installing non-apple stuff and their monopoly over their hardware and software is huge. Beside that, lunix is the best so far when it comes to multitasking - apple is slow.
Linux rocks!:guitar:
What? I can install any non-Apple hardware or software in my Mac... I don't understand your complain... :-k

It's not a monopoly. I suggest searching what monopoly means in a dictionary... :)

[Frak]

I will probably repeat known things - apple has even worse proprietary software issues than Microsoft when it comes to installing non-apple stuff and their monopoly over their hardware and software is huge. Beside that, Linux is the best so far when it comes to multitasking - apple is slow.
Linux rocks!:guitar:

1. Internal hardware? yes. Unless you have a Mac Pro, you would need to send your Macintosh back to Apple to be upgraded. External Hardware? No. Anymore, manufacturers need to also make device drivers available for OS X to stay afloat and not take criticism.
2. I don't care that Apple chooses my hardware for me, and that they market it a bit higher. My computer does what it was designed to do, multitask.
New Macintosh's support Intel VT and are Dual Core, so of course OS X was designed to abuse this. Designing applications for OS X is a walk in the park for its superb choice of hardware (they are meeting with Nvidia to discuss implementing Nvidia graphics on their lower ends at the moment) and its static sets of standards which make system requirements no object. If your Mac can run 10.5, then you can run Y for instance.
In this way, I can run a Windows application in a virtual machine in seamless mode and run a very intensive application natively and still not lose performance.
3. Monopoly does not involve choice of hardware. It refers to economics. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly)

I don't like apple(the company) for a few simple reasons.
They are more proprietary than Windows. It's good for the user because they are guaranteed their machines will work, but they also do it to have you buy more of their products for updates, software etc... (theoretically of course :P)

Also because their overpriced bubbles of goo. *Cool my machine looks like a space ship! .... 1 year later.. damn I have to upgrade from this list?!

I like freedom of Hardware, freedom to design my machine MY WAY. :)

1. Apple is more open source than Microsoft is. (http://developer.apple.com/opensource/)
2. If you don't like their control of hardware, don't buy a Mac.
3. $20 updates are cheap. This is a full OS upgrade, not a half-baked upgrade.

And a bit off topic. Apple does listen to its customers. When OS X 10.1 was released, it was offered as a free download to customers because they thought 10.0 was bloated, slow, feature lacking, and had some very minor hardware issues (DVD burning was not a capability as of yet).
Do you think Microsoft would do this with Windows 7? No. Why? Because they hold a monopoly over the largest PC manufacturers. They don't have to release it free to their customer base, because they have a hostage situation as it is: Stay with the crippled old Windows XP, switch to the bloated and expensive Vista, or buy our new Windows 7. Do the customers know they have a choice? Probably not.

Finally, if I need help with my Mac, I can come here, or I can go to the genius bar. From what I've found, it doesn't cost me a dime to go ask them to help me fix an issue. They even helped me install Linux on one of my old PPC Mac's. (Though, I think the guy was a Linux geek to begin with :D)

[Alfa989]

External Hardware? No. Anymore, manufacturers need to also make device drivers available for OS X to stay afloat and not take criticism.

Well, peripherals almost always work out-of-the-box with no driver needed... Even if they don't mention Mac OS X or Linux on the packaging or manuals... :)

[Aesir09]

mac is epic fail.

buying a mac computer is like paying someone too much money to punch you in the balls.

you pay all these money for a nice looking computer, then you get it and you can't do anything important or fun. except for go on the interwebz.

i hate mac so much, people think they are so badass when they have macs.
http://i29.tinypic.com/r8rpxw.jpg

[Alfa989]

:confused:

mac is epic fail.
Of course. That's why they don't sell at all and every review says Mac OS X sucks...

buying a mac computer is like paying someone too much money to punch you in the balls.
Err... No comments to be made here.

you pay all these money for a nice looking computer, then you get it and you can't do anything important or fun. except for go on the interwebz.
What? Considering you can do more or less the same things as any Linux distro does, only more easily, then you're saying that you can't do anything important with Linux either.

i hate mac so much, people think they are so badass when they have macs.
Do you know the meaning of the word stereotype, mate?

I don't feel like saying what people think they are when their username is Aesir09. :lolflag:

[cardinals_fan]

Mac = think different.
Linux/BSD = think correctly.

[karellen]

Mac = think different.
Linux/BSD = think correctly.

I like this :)

[Frak]

Mac = think different.
Linux/BSD = think correctly.

Mac = think different.
Linux/BSD = think much different.

It's all Unix(-ish) underneath. Just depends on how far under the hood you want to go.

[Alfa989]

mac = Think Different.
Linux/bsd = Think correctly.
:p :p

[jasontu]

As a person who has extensively used Apple OS (from 7.4 to 10.3) and Windows (from 3.1 to Vista) and now Ubuntu -- I have to say that it is Apple's approach to hardware manufacture and forcing you into the Apple Store to get anything repaired because of their super-secret-skeleton key like screws and physical layouts that I find the most obnoxious. Luckily their hardware is so good that you rarely need to go in there anyway.

They are premium machines, running a premium OS, sold at premium prices.

Also as a sidenote: Apple OS is overall probably the most secure OS out there as determined by the simple ratio

# of users:attractiveness to hackers: # of developers

Observe:

Windows
Many many users : VERY attractive to hackers : limited number of developers looking for holes
(Them > Us)

Linux
Very few users : slightly attractive to hackers as it is run on servers : uncountable developers looking for holes
(Them < Us)

Mac OS
Few users (though more than Linux) : not at all attractive to hackers - who, after all, really wants to hack into that one hippie's iBook? Easier to just take the iBook from him physically : limited number of developers looking for holes, but again, nobody cares

(Them don't care, Us can't this darned small white brick open)

Conclusion: Windows has the highest risk because it has so many potential hackers compared to people defending it. Linux is at relatively very low risk because while some people may want to compromise a Linux machine there are so many more people closing off those holes before they are taken advantage of. Mac OS is at no risk because Mac OS play next to no role in networking. Nobody is going to waste the time to develop something to compromise a machine that is used only for things important to the individual user. - again... if you really want access to that hippie's iMovies, just jump on his machine when stands up to stretch or something...

[Frak]

Mac OS
Few users (though more than Linux) : not at all attractive to hackers - who, after all, really wants to hack into that one hippie's iBook? Easier to just take the iBook from him physically : limited number of developers looking for holes, but again, nobody cares

(Them don't care, Us can't this darned small white brick open)

W3Counter (http://www.w3counter.com/globalstats.php)
1 Windows XP 78.56%
2 Windows Vista 7.34%
3 Mac OS X 4.89%
4 Windows 2000 3.14%
5 Linux 1.89%

Linux doesn't hold a candle to OS X. Plus, there have been several viruses for Mac OS, and a few for Mac OS X. Since OS X relies on much of the same components that Linux and BSD use, it can use the same fixes that Ubuntu uses during its updates.

ex. OS X uses Samba.
Ubuntu uses Samba
Samba team discovers a security hole and provides a fix.
Ubuntu developers package the fix and distribute it over apt.
OS X developers package the fix and distribute it over Apple Software Update (sudo softwareupdate --install --all)

Same fix, different implementation, same teams of developers fixing problems on both platforms.

[Alfa989]

As a person who has extensively used Apple OS (from 7.4 to 10.3) and Windows (from 3.1 to Vista) and now Ubuntu -- I have to say that it is Apple's approach to hardware manufacture and forcing you into the Apple Store to get anything repaired because of their super-secret-skeleton key like screws and physical layouts that I find the most obnoxious. Luckily their hardware is so good that you rarely need to go in there anyway.

They are premium machines, running a premium OS, sold at premium prices.

Also as a sidenote: Apple OS is overall probably the most secure OS out there as determined by the simple ratio

# of users:attractiveness to hackers: # of developers

Observe:

Windows
Many many users : VERY attractive to hackers : limited number of developers looking for holes
(Them > Us)

Linux
Very few users : slightly attractive to hackers as it is run on servers : uncountable developers looking for holes
(Them < Us)

Mac OS
Few users (though more than Linux) : not at all attractive to hackers - who, after all, really wants to hack into that one hippie's iBook? Easier to just take the iBook from him physically : limited number of developers looking for holes, but again, nobody cares

(Them don't care, Us can't this darned small white brick open)

Conclusion: Windows has the highest risk because it has so many potential hackers compared to people defending it. Linux is at relatively very low risk because while some people may want to compromise a Linux machine there are so many more people closing off those holes before they are taken advantage of. Mac OS is at no risk because Mac OS play next to no role in networking. Nobody is going to waste the time to develop something to compromise a machine that is used only for things important to the individual user. - again... if you really want access to that hippie's iMovies, just jump on his machine when stands up to stretch or something...

Err... The one million idiots argument again?

Security doesn't have anything to do with number of users. Nothing. Zero.

So please stop spreading the FUD...

Want examples? Mac OS wasn't what you'd call a secure OS, there were some viruses for it and, of course, anti-virus software.

Mac OS X is much more popular, but there are 0 viruses for it as of today. And things aren't going to change, mate.

[Unix_Slayer]

VMWare Fusion is taking alot of Windows users away, and bringing them to Mac's. While Microsoft is busy fighting a losing battle with Google over Yahoo, Apple is taking more desktops away. Isn't that amazing.

[the6step]

mac is epic fail.

because?


buying a mac computer is like paying someone too much money to punch you in the balls.


too much money? does a right amount of money paid for that even exist? I'll let you think on that one.


you pay all these money for a nice looking computer......


Let me stop you right there. Some people actually like OS X, without any of the prettiness the chassis offers. I honestly could care less, I put my Mac Pro under the desk, and my Dell widescreen on top of my desk. In my case, it just so happens that apple products have really really good design.


[, then you get it and you can't do anything important or fun. except for go on the interwebz.


Macs can't do anything important or fun? So what you mean is that for your particular case (or so you THINK), YOU can't THINK of anything important or fun to do with a Mac.


i hate mac so much, people think they are so badass when they have macs.


substitute linux for everytime you see mac in that sentence. Not fun to be on the other end of your logic is it?

[Frak]

because?



too much money? does a right amount of money paid for that even exist? I'll let you think on that one.



Let me stop you right there. Some people actually like OS X, without any of the prettiness the chassis offers. I honestly could care less, I put my Mac Pro under the desk, and my Dell widescreen on top of my desk. In my case, it just so happens that apple products have really really good design.



Macs can't do anything important or fun? So what you mean is that for your particular case (or so you THINK), YOU can't THINK of anything important or fun to do with a Mac.



substitute linux for everytime you see mac in that sentence. Not fun to be on the other end of your logic is it?
+1

The only thing I hate more than Mac Fanboys are any other OS zealot that tries to make everything else look like a brick.

[handy]

, then you get it and you can't do anything important or fun. except for go on the interwebz.

Guild Wars on Crossover Games under Leopard on my iMac, performs miles better than it does under either Cedega or Crossover Games under Linux.

& Guild Wars is fun, & important! :lolflag:

[impert]

Hi all,
I've just read this (http://www.rixstep.com/2/20060828,00.shtml) page and the pages listed at the bottom of it, on the failings of the HFS+ file system.

I was hoping to find the other side of the argument on this thread. Alas, no. Presumably though, there is another side; even the Rixstep author (Rick1 are you there?) says somewhere that there are advantages to the HFS system of forks.

I have a Mac mini, a Ubuntu PC and an external HD (formatted HFS+) which I have tried with limited success to use with both machines. Though I prefer the Ubuntu box I have no real complaints with the Mac, except the incompatibility of the HFS file system with Linux. (Yes, you can get read-only access, and you can disable journalling, and get to write to it with varying results, but the basic incompatibility remains).

Well, there's plenty on the disadvantages of HFS+ in the link above; what are the advantages? Without ranting, if possible.

[Alfa989]

Apple really need to replace HFS+ with something better... It'll probably end up being ZFS... Which is good! Then we'd have a real *nix filesystem :lolflag:

[aev]

My impression from a scientific point of view:

simple stuff is next to impossible to build/port or if it happens it takes ages. Talking about common stuff like gnuplot, meld (unsuccessful), gftp, maxima, opendx (so far unsuccessful), gcc, g77, gfortran (ok, this one actually has .DMG file binary), cdf... only common things. Nothing fancy.

My impression is that many people around me compromise with having Mac OS because it works for common use and have no problems with hardware when it comes to hibernation, wireless, etc... They dont have to adjust anything.

For work I wouldnt use it. For browsing and text typing and movies - yes.

[handy]

Hi all,
I've just read this (http://www.rixstep.com/2/20060828,00.shtml) page and the pages listed at the bottom of it, on the failings of the HFS+ file system.

I was hoping to find the other side of the argument on this thread. Alas, no. Presumably though, there is another side; even the Rixstep author (Rick1 are you there?) says somewhere that there are advantages to the HFS system of forks.

I have a Mac mini, a Ubuntu PC and an external HD (formatted HFS+) which I have tried with limited success to use with both machines. Though I prefer the Ubuntu box I have no real complaints with the Mac, except the incompatibility of the HFS file system with Linux. (Yes, you can get read-only access, and you can disable journalling, and get to write to it with varying results, but the basic incompatibility remains).

Well, there's plenty on the disadvantages of HFS+ in the link above; what are the advantages? Without ranting, if possible.

If you haven't done so already, it is worth installing DiskWarior or Mac Pilot, so you can keep your HFS+ file system healthy. It seems to need preemptive maintenance.

[Frak]

If you haven't done so already, it is worth installing DiskWarior or Mac Pilot, so you can keep your HFS+ file system healthy. It seems to need preemptive maintenance.
Seems that Apple has taken a general journaling filesystem, modified it, and now acts like a Windows NTFS partition.

Wow

[handy]

Seems that Apple has taken a general journaling filesystem, modified it, and now acts like a Windows NTFS partition.

Wow

:lolflag:

Hopefully Apple will migrate to ZFS as soon as possible.

[Frak]

:lolflag:

Hopefully Apple will migrate to ZFS as soon as possible.
There is always 10.6... I mean 7...

We'll have it by 11, I swear.

[handy]

There is always 10.6... I mean 7...

We'll have it by 11, I swear.

:lolflag:

Were you quoting Bill, oops I mean Steve?

[Unix_Slayer]

Apple really need to replace HFS+ with something better... It'll probably end up being ZFS... Which is good! Then we'd have a real *nix filesystem :lolflag:


ZFS.... they better look again. The guy who invented it, and runs the company is up for murdering his wife I think. At least that's what I heard.

[handy]

ZFS.... they better look again. The guy who invented it, and runs the company is up for murdering his wife I think. At least that's what I heard.

That is a truly horrible thing to hear.

Does that have any effect on the efficiency of ZFS?

It wasn't Bill Joy was it?

They call him Kill Joy, & of course I won't ask what his wife's name was...

Sorry, I couldn't help it...

Humans are such insensitive creatures on the whole.

[Frak]

ZFS.... they better look again. The guy who invented it, and runs the company is up for murdering his wife I think. At least that's what I heard.
You're thinking of Hans Reiser. ZFS was created by Sun Microsystems for Solaris. ZFS is uniquely UNIX while ReiserFS was uniquely Linux.

[Unix_Slayer]

That is a truly horrible thing to hear.

Does that have any effect on the efficiency of ZFS?

It wasn't Bill Joy was it?

They call him Kill Joy, & of course I won't ask what his wife's name was...

Sorry, I couldn't help it...

Humans are such insensitive creatures on the whole.


Read it and weep ==> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/15-07/ff_hansreiser?currentPage=all#

[Unix_Slayer]

You're thinking of Hans Reiser. ZFS was created by Sun Microsystems for Solaris. ZFS is uniquely UNIX while ReiserFS was uniquely Linux.

I know. I work with Sparc's, but he had a hand in ZFS with Sun.

[handy]

Read it and weep ==> http://www.wired.com/techbiz/people/magazine/15-07/ff_hansreiser?currentPage=all#

I feel sad for him & his wife, though I have not been bought to tears.

I know. I work with Sparc's, but he had a hand in ZFS with Sun.

I don't see any negative connection between his actions & ZFS, they are entirely separate entities as I see it.

In the end this is just gossip, but hey, we are on a forum.

[Unix_Slayer]

I feel sad for him & his wife, though I have not been bought to tears.

That was just a pun.

I don't see any negative connection between his actions & ZFS, they are entirely separate entities as I see it.

There is also another article about what will become of ZFS.

[handy]

That was just a pun.

I'm glad you caught it.


There is also another article about what will become of ZFS.

So do you need to keep it to yourself or will you post the link & share it with everyone?

[impert]

@Handy:
If you haven't done so already, it is worth installing DiskWarior or Mac Pilot, so you can keep your HFS+ file system healthy. It seems to need preemptive maintenance.
Thanks for the suggestion, I use Onyx.

[Frak]

I know. I work with Sparc's, but he had a hand in ZFS with Sun.
Reiser refused to work on any project not licensed under the GPL. ZFS is licensed under the CDDL. This was to ensure that his products would run under the Linux kernel.

[Unix_Slayer]

ZFS is opensource but they have made it so it can only be included into one kernel and thats solaris now, it can be ran on linux but its got to be through userspace. Reiserfs v3 is the only filesystem that comes close to ZFS in features. XFS lacks data journaling, ext3/4 lack decent dynamic growing options (and have many limitations besides that).

[Frak]

ZFS is opensource but they have made it so it can only be included into one kernel and thats solaris now, it can be ran on linux but its got to be through userspace. Reiserfs v3 is the only filesystem that comes close to ZFS in features. XFS lacks data journaling, ext3/4 lack decent dynamic growing options (and have many limitations besides that).
They're thinking about GPL'ing ZFS at the moment. Also, there are patches for the kernel that allow support for ZFS in the kernel space. (You patch it, legal. Distributed, illegal.)

[agamotto]

My only major strikes against the MacOS are the following: No eject/load buttons on the media drives.... 20 years plus, and you can't find a Mac that lets you eject things with a physical button. One button mouse... what, the average Mac user can't figure out the utility of having different menus come up with different mouse buttons?

[x0as]

My only major strikes against the MacOS are the following: No eject/load buttons on the media drives.... 20 years plus, and you can't find a Mac that lets you eject things with a physical button. One button mouse... what, the average Mac user can't figure out the utility of having different menus come up with different mouse buttons?

What's wrong with the eject button on the keyboard?

Why is it so hard to understand that you can right click on a Mac?

http://leopardtips.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-to-right-click-on-mac.html

[cardinals_fan]

Why is it so hard to understand that you can right click on a Mac?

http://leopardtips.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-to-right-click-on-mac.html
In response to those tips:

Method 1: Great. I just spent a ton of money on a new Mac, and now I should buy a new mouse just to have two buttons?!

Method 2: Control-Click isn't bad once you're used to it, but it's a pain at first.

Method 3: I never really got this. It just seems to be a bit finicky for me.

The reason many people complain about right-click on Macs isn't because it's impossible, it's because there's no clear reason why they don't include two-button mice. Why don't they just include mice with two buttons with each computer?

[robertchahine]

personnaly, i like so much the graphics and themes of Mac OS. even i think it's the best operating system for the theme categorie.
but no operating system can beat the ubuntu.

[Frak]

In response to those tips:

Method 1: Great. I just spent a ton of money on a new Mac, and now I should buy a new mouse just to have two buttons?!

Method 2: Control-Click isn't bad once you're used to it, but it's a pain at first.

Method 3: I never really got this. It just seems to be a bit finicky for me.

The reason many people complain about right-click on Macs isn't because it's impossible, it's because there's no clear reason why they don't include two-button mice. Why don't they just include mice with two buttons with each computer?
1. Ever since the Intel switch, all of my iMac's came with a two button mouse.

2. This is a UI issue. If somebody calls support, and the support team says to "click" on something, the person might ask "right or left?". In this process, if they don't ask, they may become incredibly lost and blame it on Apple. This also forces structure amoung UI creators to create interfaces that force using one button use. This is one way that Apple recieved its "Easy-to-use" street cred. No worrying about features you cannot see. Everything is WYSIWYG.

They have only recently moved to two button because power-users and new Windows converts were complaining. If you think about it, it was a very nice idea.

[sunstriker]

What's wrong with the eject button on the keyboard?

Why is it so hard to understand that you can right click on a Mac?

http://leopardtips.blogspot.com/2007/11/how-to-right-click-on-mac.html

They have an eject button for emergency cases. It's located on the right side of the drive and you have to push it with something small, like a pencil...

About the mice: just because you can't see the right mouse button, doesn't mean it isn't there ^^

[LaRoza]

2. This is a UI issue. If somebody calls support, and the support team says to "click" on something, the person might ask "right or left?". In this process, if they don't ask, they may become incredibly lost and blame it on Apple. This also forces structure amoung UI creators to create interfaces that force using one button use. This is one way that Apple recieved its "Easy-to-use" street cred. No worrying about features you cannot see. Everything is WYSIWYG.

I guess Apple thinks its beyond users to comprehend such things? I mean, Linux typically uses mice with three buttons and a wheel. I don't see rampant confusion here.

The biggest gripe I have about Apple is that their keyboards have lots of keys. It is so complicated. Why can't they just have one key to make things easier and reduce confusion.


They have an eject button for emergency cases. It's located on the right side of the drive and you have to push it with something small, like a pencil...


All drives have that somewhere for emergencies.

[cocopuffz]

Well I can say I hate Mac. I don't hate them for the reason most people think a PC guy would hate a Mac. For me, it's the lie they tell you. Mac's can crash just as easy as a PC. So all of those commercials on TV and the ads in magazines that say "it just works" to me, are lies... and I don't like being lied to.

I used Mac's in school and managed to crash it on a hourly basis. I've had to fix 3 ipod nano's, 2 ipod Classics, and 2 of the new macs running OSx for friends. These same guys were the ones proclaiming their superior experience, basically vommitting the same stuff in the Mac ads. Who had to fix their stuff? The PC guy.

It's like the BMW m3 driver who can't change his own oil, and then proceeds to tell me why his overpriced machine is better than my home build muscle car.

MAC's cost way too much for my taste. I mean, I spent more on my homebuilt PC, so I'm not cheap... but my homebuilt PC can smoke any MAC of comparable price + you can take it apart, upgrade it, modify it and it makes a mean turkey melt. lol.

I dislike DELL, HP's and most of those company's too. I just want complete control over my machine and OS.. and a custom built, Ubuntu Box does that for me.

Plus my experience with Itunes was horrible. That's the worst piece of SW I've ever used. EVER! I consider it a virus lol.

[Unix_Slayer]

It's like the BMW m3 driver who can't change his own oil, and then proceeds to tell me why his overpriced machine is better than my home build muscle car.

I own a M3, plus I have a muscle car as well. They are different flavors when you drive them. BTW.... BMW's go for 15,000 miles between each oil change.

[aysiu]

They have an eject button for emergency cases. It's located on the right side of the drive and you have to push it with something small, like a pencil... It's actually on the keyboard at the top-right.

[cardinals_fan]

2. This is a UI issue. If somebody calls support, and the support team says to "click" on something, the person might ask "right or left?". In this process, if they don't ask, they may become incredibly lost and blame it on Apple. This also forces structure amoung UI creators to create interfaces that force using one button use. This is one way that Apple recieved its "Easy-to-use" street cred. No worrying about features you cannot see. Everything is WYSIWYG.

Bolded for emphasis. I think that line says it all.

[Frak]

Bolded for emphasis. I think that line says it all.
Those said features are to be automatic, or a powerusers friend, not the average user.

[karellen]

a two buttons mouse is definitely a power user feature that a normal mac user can't handle ;)
that makes all other windows pc users some real computer gurus

[Unix_Slayer]

a two buttons mouse is definitely a power user feature that a normal mac user can't handle ;)
that makes all other windows pc users some real computer gurus

Just one button...... Amazing.

[ladr0n]

Plus my experience with Itunes was horrible. That's the worst piece of SW I've ever used. EVER! I consider it a virus lol.

It is. It phones home and downloads unwelcome internet browsers and who knows what else on windows boxes.

Apple is just as evil as Microsoft. M$ gets a bit more crap because they're bigger, and Apple has some FOSS in their operating system. However, nothing makes it okay for my software to spy on me or tell me what to do, so anything that, for example, permits DRM is out.

[handy]

It is. It phones home and downloads unwelcome internet browsers and who knows what else on windows boxes.

Apple is just as evil as Microsoft. M$ gets a bit more crap because they're bigger, and Apple has some FOSS in their operating system. However, nothing makes it okay for my software to spy on me or tell me what to do, so anything that, for example, permits DRM is out.

I use Little Snitch on my Leopard partition, that way I can say what program gets to phone home or anywhere else for that matter.

[handy]

a two buttons mouse is definitely a power user feature that a normal mac user can't handle ;)
that makes all other windows pc users some real computer gurus

I always wonder when someone throws this ancient one button stuff out whether they are just fishing for a byte or they are truly ignorant of the facts?

Whichever way it goes it is always still amusing... :popcorn:

http://www.apple.com/au/mightymouse/

[Frak]

I use Little Snitch on my Leopard partition, that way I can say what program gets to phone home or anywhere else for that matter.
As do I. I wish there was something like this for Windows. I know there are firewalls and PG2 (which I use now), but I like how LS works alot more.

[Jammy4041]

Least Apple has gone partly open source (with Darwin). I don't see M$ releasing the Windows code base any time soon.

[NoSmokingBandit]

As do I. I wish there was something like this for Windows. I know there are firewalls and PG2 (which I use now), but I like how LS works alot more.
I use comodo on all my windows installs and its very nice and easy to use. LS doesnt have a ton of advanced features which i miss a little when i boot to osx, but its the best out there so i just deal with it.

I always wonder when someone throws this ancient one button stuff out whether they are just fishing for a byte or they are truly ignorant of the facts?

Whichever way it goes it is always still amusing... :popcorn:

http://www.apple.com/au/mightymouse/

http://kevinjung.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/trackpad.png
Thats the reason people get pissed about no 2nd mouse button. I would hate it if my laptop had one button. Its stupid to lug a mighty mouse around with a laptop, so dont bring that up.

I love apples software, hate their hardware.

[LaRoza]

Thats the reason people get pissed about no 2nd mouse button. I would hate it if my laptop had one button. Its stupid to lug a mighty mouse around with a laptop, so dont bring that up.

I love apples software, hate their hardware.

I have an old iBook and that really made me unhappy. I am used to my thinkpad...

[Frak]

The notebooks are the only things that don't have right click. That's always intrigued me. (Macbook Pro)

[cardinals_fan]

I always wonder when someone throws this ancient one button stuff out whether they are just fishing for a byte or they are truly ignorant of the facts?

Whichever way it goes it is always still amusing... :popcorn:

http://www.apple.com/au/mightymouse/
As I already pointed out, purchasing a seperate mouse just to have more than one button is a bit aggravating considering the price of Apple hardware.

[hessiess]

mac... better than windows, but i wish thay would ditch the 1 button mouse! and untill OSX becomes as configurable as Ubuntu, il be sticking with that.

[x0as]

Tap the touchpad with 2 fingers for right click.

[Frak]

As I already pointed out, purchasing a seperate mouse just to have more than one button is a bit aggravating considering the price of Apple hardware.
It COMES with all new iMac's and Mac Pro's.

[cardinals_fan]

It COMES with all new iMac's and Mac Pro's.
About time! :)

[Unix_Slayer]

Apple has been using the one button mouse a long time ago since they stole it from Xerox.

[Frak]

Apple has been using the one button mouse a long time ago since they stole it from Xerox.

Let's try that again.

Apple has been using a one button mouse since they bought the rights from Xerox all the way to just about 5 years ago.

[Unix_Slayer]

Let's try that again.

Apple has been using a one button mouse since they bought the rights from Xerox all the way to just about 5 years ago.


Watch the movie "Pirates of Silicon Valley". Apple, and MS stole a lot of stuff from XParc.

[NoSmokingBandit]

Tap the touchpad with 2 fingers for right click.

...because thats not inconvenient at all...

/sarcasm

Instead of adding to the list of track-pad gestures apple could just add a 2nd mouse button. Not too hard to slap another button on the macbook.
NOBODY likes having only one mouse button. People deal with it, yes, but i doubt anyone favors having fewer buttons. Apple is too arrogant to admit their on-button method might be obsolete though. Although if they ever do put 2 buttons on the macbook steve Jobs will undoubtedly taut it like its the greatest invention in the world. The guy knows how to put together a decent OS, but hes too damn conceited.

[handy]

http://kevinjung.ca/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/trackpad.png
Thats the reason people get pissed about no 2nd mouse button. I would hate it if my laptop had one button. Its stupid to lug a mighty mouse around with a laptop, so dont bring that up.

I love apples software, hate their hardware.

I was replying to the purported existence of the Apple one button mouse.

As far as the one button touchpad is concerned I fully agree with you. We have a 15" Powerbook here that is setup that way & I really don't like it.

I use a mouse with it, & then the problem goes away. Personally I don't think that is the slightest bit stupid, quite the contrary actually. :lolflag:

At least the software is set up to function well with other mouse buttons.

Fortunately, I don't know how to feel hate.

[handy]

As I already pointed out, purchasing a seperate mouse just to have more than one button is a bit aggravating considering the price of Apple hardware.

The difference in the price of the lower end notebooks is very competitive in Oz.

That aside, the cost of a 3 button infrared mouse is under $20- here, I don't think that is much of a problem, if you don't already have such a thing laying around anyway.

I agree, though, that Apple's notebooks should have another button.

[Unix_Slayer]

The difference in the price of the lower end notebooks is very competitive in Oz.

That aside, the cost of a 3 button infrared mouse is under $20- here, I don't think that is much of a problem, if you don't already have such a thing laying around anyway.

I agree, though, that Apple's notebooks should have another button.

Yes.... one to click, and two others to make a circuit between two sticks of dynamite.

[handy]

Yes.... one to click, and two others to make a circuit between two sticks of dynamite.

Chauvinism will be the end of us all...

[Frak]

Chauvinism will be the end of us all...
Agreed.

[jeyaganesh]

It is not true that itunes is best for music. I have creative audigy sound card. I tested Windows media player 11, itunes and real player. Among them Windows media player 11 showed superior quality of music.Itunes playing music as like from inside the well. Before Windows media player 11, real player had the superior quality. With windows media player you play both music and video.

[R_T_H]

Apple has worse user lock in than Windows... I would take M$ over Apple anyday.

[robertchahine]

there was a hacking competition made on three laptops (Vista, ubuntu, Apple).
the first one was hacked was apple.
i thought that apple is more secure then vista(both are bad :D)

[OmniCloud]

Well I can say I hate Mac. I don't hate them for the reason most people think a PC guy would hate a Mac. For me, it's the lie they tell you. Mac's can crash just as easy as a PC. So all of those commercials on TV and the ads in magazines that say "it just works" to me, are lies... and I don't like being lied to.

I used Mac's in school and managed to crash it on a hourly basis. I've had to fix 3 ipod nano's, 2 ipod Classics, and 2 of the new macs running OSx for friends. These same guys were the ones proclaiming their superior experience, basically vommitting the same stuff in the Mac ads. Who had to fix their stuff? The PC guy.

It's like the BMW m3 driver who can't change his own oil, and then proceeds to tell me why his overpriced machine is better than my home build muscle car.

MAC's cost way too much for my taste. I mean, I spent more on my homebuilt PC, so I'm not cheap... but my homebuilt PC can smoke any MAC of comparable price + you can take it apart, upgrade it, modify it and it makes a mean turkey melt. lol.

I dislike DELL, HP's and most of those company's too. I just want complete control over my machine and OS.. and a custom built, Ubuntu Box does that for me.

Plus my experience with Itunes was horrible. That's the worst piece of SW I've ever used. EVER! I consider it a virus lol.Nice post. This is my main gripe with MACS. Very cool software, very sleek designs, very cruel price-point. Especially when you compare specs or what you could actually do with the same amount of money as a Mac.

I run buntu, I'll probably use it until it isn't supported anymore. The beauty is, I don't have to go with Ubuntu 9.0 "Jeering Juno" if my PC specs can't handle it.

I could go with a XFCE alternative, or a flux alternative, or a base install and add-on everything I need.

True, I miss applications like Windows Media Maker, and I'm sure Macs has an even better default video editor. I love the scrolling options in Itunes, Iphoto--and the built in camera. Very cool stuff, hopefully we can get some decent software like that on Linux.

To me though, it just isn't worth the price of admission. The features (besides the video editor) are more or less-bling. And going to best buy playing around with a Mac for about an hour, I couldn't find out why this thing cost so much money?

I'd rather just get an HD display and turn on Compiz for when I want to be amazed by my desktop. Having said that, I think it's a cool OS, and If I had money to waste, I'd pick on up.

Then again--probably not...yeah, the price really bothers me lol..

[Unix_Slayer]

Chauvinism will be the end of us all...

You might have to explain this one to me concerning the one button mouse.

[danbuter]

Apple is FAR worse than Microsoft when it comes to proprietary stuff. I'm pretty sure it's been explaine up-thread.

[handy]

Yes.... one to click, and two others to make a circuit between two sticks of dynamite.

You might have to explain this one to me concerning the one button mouse.


Chauvinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism) separates humanity.

Theoretically, chauvinism can not be a good thing.

Reality has proved the theory.

[LaRoza]

Chauvinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chauvinism) separates humanity.

Theoretically, chauvinism can not be a good thing.

Reality has proved the theory.

To some degree it can be good, otherwise we'd never be able to resist certain hostile elements if it didn't exist in some form.

[handy]

To some degree it can be good, otherwise we'd never be able to resist certain hostile elements if it didn't exist in some form.

Chauvinism itself, by definition is something that lives in the mind of humanity.

Whilst ever it does, humanity will not be at peace.

I am, as is common for me, being idealistic LaRoza.

[Frak]

Chauvinism itself, by definition is something that lives in the mind of humanity.

Whilst ever it does, humanity will not be at peace.

I am, as is common for me, being idealistic LaRoza.
If that is true, get off my lawn handy, cause you're not as good as mai coffeh cupz. ;)

[LaRoza]

I am, as is common for me, being idealistic LaRoza.

I am also:

And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two, Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away. You have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbor, and hate thy enemy. But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you: That you may be the children of your Father who is in heaven, who maketh his sun to rise upon the good, and bad, and raineth upon the just and the unjust.

For if you love them that love you, what reward shall you have? do not even the publicans this? 47 And if you salute your brethren only, what do you more? do not also the heathens this? 48 Be you therefore perfect, as also your heavenly Father is perfect.


If that is true, get off my lawn handy, cause you're not as good as mai coffeh cupz. ;)

We have to talk...

[NexXtTime]

What do you mean? Apple's great for multimedia! I don't hate them at all. I use my Linux for fun and my Apple for multimedia, Apple's great! :guitar:

[karellen]

What do you mean? Apple's great for multimedia! I don't hate them at all. I use my Linux for fun and my Apple for multimedia, Apple's great! :guitar:

Every OS is good for multimedia, at least if you're not a pro

[LaRoza]

Every OS is good for multimedia, at least if you're not a pro

And depending on what the media is. Linux has been used for movies.

[Frak]

And depending on what the media is. Linux has been used for movies.
Not just rendering either, actual workstations for editing.

[karellen]

And depending on what the media is. Linux has been used for movies.

I know that, that's why I'm annoyed when people think that only Mac OS X (and eventually Windows) is suitable for serious audio/video work

[LaRoza]

I know that, that's why I'm annoyed when people think that only Mac OS X (and eventually Windows) is suitable for serious audio/video work

To me, the prime advantage of OS X would be for non technical people for basic home use (the price is the only thing against this) as Macs are typically all ready to go and are much safer than Windows.

[handy]

In days gone by the Apple computers had the advantage for desktop publishing, graphic design, working with photo's, sound & movies.

They have not had that advantage for some years, though Apple naturally market as though they still do, as any other company in the same position would.

It is the nature of marketroids to tell lies & use any perceived possible way to take advantage of their customers or to make potential customers real.

[LaRoza]

It is the nature of marketroids to tell lies & use any perceived possible way to take advantage of their customers or to make potential customers real.

No, I am a burglar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsvWVbBowXo

[jeyaganesh]

Some of the Mac crashes and its malfunctions videos are here;

1.Mac and Vista performance comparison- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUWVaifgnXM
2.Mac Crash video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKNNLadj_M
3.chirs@pirillo review- See problem of all OS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgGXNuGURs0
4. chirs@pirillo Mac crash http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ig1qtduR9ik

Hope you enjoy those videos.:)