What do you think of Apple/Mac OS X?

[samden]

OK, I like Apple, but am just getting into Linux too.

The main reason I like Apple is that IT JUST WORKS! Sure controlling the hardware and software may be objectionable in some ways, but it certainly works. I have just been installing OSX and Xubuntu to make a dual-boot iMac G3 over the Christmas break. OSX installed fine, even with only 192MB ram, graphical installer and everything. Networking with my iBook G4 was automatic and painless. No worries. Xubuntu on the other hand, much as I like it when it is working, is fraught with difficulties to get basic things to go.

Open source is great, and Linux is great. I am fully behind Linux becoming bigger and maybe one day taking over from proprietry solutions. But I have found that if I actually want to have a computer to do my work on, it is much, much simpler to install OSX and use it. Why? BECAUSE Apple has designed the OS to work with the hardware, and the hardware to work with the OS, the very thing several posters here seem to object to.

Apple is by no means perfect, and I would love them to embrace more open source software for example. I would dearly love some of the Apple team to contribute to making OpenOffice.org more seamlessly compatible on the Mac and including it with all new Macs sold for example - at the moment the Mac comes with heaps of toys (iTunes, iMovie, Garageband) but little in the way of serious everyday tools (e.g. a good office suite, currently the best being MS Office as far as I can see, which adds a bit more to the cost of the computer).

Seriously, why would anyone want to sell a computer without a decent office suite on it? Isn't an office suite the most basic requirement of EVERY user? Appleworks is good for a basic user but really doesn't cut the mustard anymore, and Apple's new iWork package doesn't even include a spreadsheet, AND must be bought separately.

But much as I may object to bits of their philosophy, if I want a tool that works out of the box (once I install a suitable office suite), I will buy a Mac.

[steven8]

I just got my first Apple. A Macintosh Performa 6360, that was going to rot away in a friends basement if I hadn't rescued it. So, my first experience with a mac, in 2006, is with a 1996 performa 6360. So far I like it, but I am still learning. I turned it on with the little 'button' in the back until I found out about the power button on the keyboard. Wish me luck! :-)

[samden]

Enjoy it! They are great old machines, and last for years. Until 2 years ago when I splashed out and got an iBook I was doing all my university assignments on an LCII, a Powerbook 150 (both from around 1992 or so) and a PowerMac 7200/120 (similar age to your fancy new machine!). Could pick them up for free or extremely cheap, and had some old copies of Word and Excel on them too. Few problems, and they always worked. They last for ever. OS7 is extremely stable and never, ever, EVER crashes or does ANYTHING wrong! If it ran the modern applications I need now I would continue using it - you certainly don't need a fancy GUI to type an assignment and print it out.

[steven8]

Thanks. I was quite surprised to find that the rainbow-colored apple in the corner wasn't just for decoration either. Theres an s-load of stuff hidden under there. Devilishly clever!, if you ask me.

I have read that you 'uninstall' programs by dragging them to the trash, and then emptying it? Is this true? Does that mean the 'shortcut' on my desktop is not just a shortcut, or is the trash designed to follow the shortcut back and remove the program and all of it's dependencies? This is very exciting to me, as it seems so bloody simple!!

[Alfa989]

I have read that you 'uninstall' programs by dragging them to the trash, and then emptying it? Is this true? Does that mean the 'shortcut' on my desktop is not just a shortcut, or is the trash designed to follow the shortcut back and remove the program and all of it's dependencies? This is very exciting to me, as it seems so bloody simple!!

Dunno really, I know that's true for OS X, but I have a little experience with OS 7 or any other classic Mac OS:)

[graigsmith]

Is it because all of their hardware and software is not 100% free and Open Source

That's why i wouldn't buy an apple.

i mean, why pay more for proprietary hardware? i enjoy putting my own computers together. AND being able to fix them or upgrade them as necessary, I wouldn't give that up.

Microsoft's os is just as proprietary as apple's. I prefer open source. Both the software, and the ideology are better in my opinion. Plus it's freely distributable.

[autocrosser]

Yes, that's right, sort-of, you will need to trash the desktop shortcut, the program files & you also need to goto the "System" folder & remove (trash) the preferences, folders, etc from the program also.

That should be able to run OS 8.6 without problems--OS8.6 was the most stable OS that Apple (Mac) had ever made, modern enough to run Usb stuff, yet old enough to not have all the bells/whistles in it. I've got a OS 8.5-8.51-8.6 install set if you are interested. I'm running OS 8.6 on a 6100 unit (reved up to a wopping 80mz--o-wow) & a 5400 Performa.

E me if you have any questions, I did beta work in those days & can tell you almost anything you want to know about it.

I have read that you 'uninstall' programs by dragging them to the trash, and then emptying it? Is this true? Does that mean the 'shortcut' on my desktop is not just a shortcut, or is the trash designed to follow the shortcut back and remove the program and all of it's dependencies? This is very exciting to me, as it seems so bloody simple!!

[3rdalbum]

I have read that you 'uninstall' programs by dragging them to the trash, and then emptying it? Is this true? Does that mean the 'shortcut' on my desktop is not just a shortcut, or is the trash designed to follow the shortcut back and remove the program and all of it's dependencies? This is very exciting to me, as it seems so bloody simple!!

Er... it's not that simple unfortunately.

The alias on your desktop (what Windows users would call a "shortcut" and Linux users would call a "symbolic link") is just an alias. In order to uninstall the program, you just drag the *folder* containing the application to the trash then empty it.

If the application installed any extensions, you should disable those too, by dragging them from "System Folder:Extensions" to the "System Folder:Extensions (disabled)" folder.

If the program is in the Apple menu, then you should probably open up "System Folder:Apple Menu Items" and remove its alias from there too.

But yeah, installing and removing Mac programs is very easy on the classic Mac OS.

[quartzy]

iPod nanos have to be the most sexual looking thing ever.. Therefore I like apple :)

[steven8]

Er... it's not that simple unfortunately.

I'd say not. :-) I'll be a little nervous worrying about dragging something away which shouldn't go. Do no two programs share anything?

[Alfa989]

I prefer open source. Both the software, and the ideology are better in my opinion. Plus it's freely distributable.

It's not always better... :( , EG: Gimme an Open Source app that is better than iMovie... :)

Other bad thing about Open Source OSs is lack of some major software... (Photoshop, Cubase, Office...) :(

Plus, Closed Source OSs have got some of the best GUIs (Mac OS X, SkyOS...) along with other great ones GNOME, KDE...

[3rdalbum]

I'd say not. :-) I'll be a little nervous worrying about dragging something away which shouldn't go. Do no two programs share anything?

Well, to put it bluntly, no. On Mac OS, everything except system libraries are static-linked into the program. Any programs that need kernel extensions or daemons have their own "extensions", which go into "System Folder:Extensions". There's nothing like Aptitude that knows what was installed and is no longer needed. But generally, any extensions that were loaded are easily recognisable (for instance, the program that they came with is usually mentioned in the Get Info box).

Usually though, the program is self-contained inside its own folder (this is much more so in OS 9 and X), and dragging it away is completely safe. If there is an extension that you can unload, you generally put it into the "Extensions (disabled)" folder until you're sure you don't need it.

[computerwiz3491]

To be honest, the only reason why I use Ubuntu is because I am fed up with windows, and can't run Mac OS X on my Compaq Laptop. If I had a mac, I would probally stop using Ubuntu.

[Frak]

I've seen some people that have been sucessful, since Mac switched to Intel, OSX can run on VMware, on Windows, or Linux, Linux is easier because it can emulate the hardware easier, and has less hardware useage. But with some mods to the source code with VMware player, or just using Qemu, you can essientially run OSX on Ubuntu.

[beefcurry]

Like from the begining of this thread, i dislike apple more then microsoft, for me im using Ubuntu for its company ethics. Apple has horrible company ethics dispite them advertising themselves to be "hip" and "cool". Dispite being the only one in my school using a Linux i am very happy with it. I will not compare since they are essentially different things that do the same job. Microsoft has long favoured BUSINESSES and not its small users, reasonable. Microsoft has shown some promise of being nice....or else 98% of the world will not be using microsoft. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation also does good work, charity is always attractive form of marketing that i like. Apple however think they are Cool, and they are not. Obviously they look good, but according to Green Peace they are Dam polluting. Ipods are overused, and not exactly very good. Its just like the half arsed products from microsoft. To be frank i like GNOME over the Aqua GUI from apple. And Apple started advertising really REALLY lame things and makes it a BIG deal (i.e. its dock and expose which can both be achived on Linux and Windows), which microsoft seems to have copied with its AERO.

Overall Apple's Business Ethics SUCKS and thats why i DONT like Apple. :)

Canonical! never abandon your way of serving people in a humane way! if you dont exploit, i'll use :D

[Monsuco]

Apple comes across as a control freak company to me. They try to force users to only use Apple software with Apple hardware and visa versa. With Windows you can at least choose just about any X86 compatable PC. Also Apple seems concentrated on look and feel too much and not enough on practicality. I use the lack of a second mouse button for example, or the freakish scroll ball. Why not just use standard equipment? Everyone else uses it and it is efficient. Then there is the "we know best" mentality of the iPod. iTunes demands that you sync software and that you only buy from them. They won't let you take music off of the iPod (with iTunes anyways). They freeride off of BSD (they give some code back in Darwin, but most stays hidden). They ignore backwards compatibility and ensure that things only work on the newest of stuff (switching to PPC killed back compatibility, switching from the Mac based OS to the BSD based one killed compatibility, switching to Intel killed compatibility for PPC). They also seem to be total hypocrites. (IBM is evil, then they swap to IBM PPC CPUs. Our OS is better than all others, then swap to BSD, Intel is evil, then swap to Intel, Microsoft is evil, then they are proud to release bootcamp). They also attacked Be by refusing to properly document their CPUs and ultimately lead to the demise of BeOS, which was actually a decent piece of software (if not extreamly unconventional, Be was weird looking, but had some cool features). Plus they like their DRM stronger than Starbucks Coffee.

Not to mention the elitist attitude of the OSX community. They seem to feel that they can do everything better than their alternatives. They seem to be unable to grasp the concept that not everyone can pay $1000 for a midrange computer. They are rather ungrateful of anything that doesn't have a ton of excess polish on it. They seem to snub the Darwine project because "it looks uglier than a native app" same with crossover. They expect things to be handed to them and don't like to tweek things. If it isn't out of the box good it isn't worth it. Interestingly, while the OSX code may somewhat resemble Linux and BSD, the phylosophies of the two are as different as night and day. OSX seems to believe that the user should not do anything and that it has to work as is or not at all, while linux and BSD are about choice and allowing the user to do things as they like. Linux expects that the user can decide things.

[Alfa989]

To be frank i like GNOME over the Aqua GUI from apple. And Apple started advertising really REALLY lame things and makes it a BIG deal (i.e. its dock and expose which can both be achived on Linux and Windows).

Yeah, but the "Dock" and "Exposé" in Linux and Windows suck major *** (except, maybe, The nice "Exposé" in XGL :) )

[Alfa989]

Apple comes across as a control freak company to me. They try to force users to only use Apple software with Apple hardware and visa versa. With Windows you can at least choose just about any X86 compatable PC.
Apple Hardware maybe (Doesn't DELL force you to use DELL Hardware??), but not Apple Software (You can delete any program you get bundled with OS X. If you don't want to use their browser, just throw away Safari, don't want Dashboard?, throw it away too:) ) But M$ forces you to use IE, and they don't even let you remove it!](*,) Besides, you are comparing a manufacturer with a Platform...

Also Apple seems concentrated on look and feel too much and not enough on practicality. I use the lack of a second mouse button for example, or the freakish scroll ball. Why not just use standard equipment? Everyone else uses it and it is efficient.
Mmm... You get 4 mouse buttons with their mouses, and the Scroll Ball it's a great innovation. Think about it, if everyone sticks with standard equipment there would be no innovation! Sometimes is better to dump old things and never look back, to go forward...:)

They ignore backwards compatibility and ensure that things only work on the newest of stuff (switching to PPC killed back compatibility, switching from the Mac based OS to the BSD based one killed compatibility, switching to Intel killed compatibility for PPC).
Well, I can run All Mac OS apps in Mac OS X, and use PPC apps on Intel Macs; I call that backwards compatibility:) . Plus, you can't maintain it forever, look what what happened with Microsoft, the tried to have it, and look what Windows has become now...:(


Happy new year Monsuco!!:grin:

[aysiu]

Apple Hardware maybe (Doesn't DELL force you to use DELL Hardware??), but not Apple Software (You can delete any program you get bundled with OS X. If you don't want to use their browser, just throw away Safari, don't want Dashboard?, throw it away too:) ) But M$ forces you to use IE, and they don't even let you remove it!](*,) In order to run Mac OS X (the operating system) legally, you must purchase Apple hardware. That's Apple's hardware (computer) and Apple's software (operating system) from one company.

To run Windows (the operating system) legally, you can purchase Dell hardware, HP hardware, Sony hardware, Gateway hardware... the list goes on. In fact, you can even build your own computer and install Windows on it. You are not forced by Microsoft (the maker of the operating system) to purchase Dell hardware.

[Redache]

People put too much stock into the varying degree's that the IT Market is at. Microsoft Create a product that is used by nearly every single Hardware Vendor, and forced down the throats of every consumer who has an interest in a computer. Big brand names don't give a toss about what OS they use, it's all about the most popular product at the time, it's just that microsoft have been consistently popular. You can hurl abuse at MS Zealouts but all it really means is they fell for the billion dollar marketing trick. It's all about image kids, Microsoft is seen as the Cutting Edge, Mature guy in the IT market, Apple is it's Younger, Cooler little guy that is only just learning to walk, Linux is seen as the geeky little sister that hides in the corner and plans world domination ala Pinky and the Brain.

Microsoft have carved a monopolistic niche, But they did so at a time when IT was really exploding amongst home users and they offered something simple that came bundled with your computer. Linux was always hard work back then, it took patience and time to really explore it. Microsoft used a GUI to great effect and Direct X pulled in more and more of the market as games got bigger and better. They planned it and it worked. There's no point trying to argue which company is better than any other because Microsoft won the monopoly race, Linux has the most ethical standpoint and advances the most compared to Ms's slow release cycle, Mac are the fastest growing IT company in the world and are constantly expanding.

With the 3 comparisons I HONESTLY can't say I hate any of the companies or ideas. Mac Make these brilliant, Boutique like PC's with their own individuality and style. PC's are much more vanilla with regards to style but are so configurable and you have the option to really expand and grow along with it. Windows is a problematic OS that has gained dominance which led to un unforseen amount of arrogance and then they let the troubles slip through. NT is a bad idea, it has gone horribly wrong and is mutating beyond Microsofts grasp, and all they can do is release a shiny new OS based on the same technology. Big on Idea's, Short on results. If they moved completely away from NT then it'd be a different Microsoft to look at.

[teaker1s]

expensive hardware, proven by the fact that apple lock their os from non apple approved intel hardware-can be hacked to run on cheaper intel pc system.

But why bother, choose ubuntu and do whatever you want on it and you'll get no agro.


What apple has done is make technology sexy and thats why they are successful when they are not offering top value hardware.

[GermanFafian]

Personally. I don really hate either Apple or Wins. The only thing that bothers me is Apple's "I'm too good and pretty for your wallet" attitude.
Real boutique equipment should be hand-made and hand-wired like Tube amps. Therefore the price tag. Apple does not fit as such.
Wins just tries to sell you the idea that their system is reliable and stable while being easy to set up. That is just not true.
I use wins only for music making and will do so until Linux catches up with it and it's just a matter of time.
I believe in freedom of choice. If Win is your personal taste so be it ;)
Germ:twisted:

[Gudanov]

I can't say I really hate Apple, but it's not for me. I like to use any hardware I like.

I do get annoyed by Apple devotees bashing Microsoft for being monopolistic while using Apple Software that will run only on an Apple OS that will only run on Apple hardware while also using an Apple MP3 player that is locked into Apple's iTunes that only works with Apple MP3 players. Microsoft at least affords more choices. Apple's vendor lock-in is both a strength and a weakness.

[Lord Illidan]

I can't say I really hate Apple, but it's not for me. I like to use any hardware I like.

I do get annoyed by Apple devotees bashing Microsoft for being monopolistic while using Apple Software that will run only on an Apple OS that will only run on Apple hardware while also using an Apple MP3 player that is locked into Apple's iTunes that only works with Apple MP3 players. Microsoft at least affords more choices. Apple's vendor lock-in is both a strength and a weakness.

Let's be fair.

Microsoft software will run only on a Microsoft OS. It may run on Apple, but because Microsoft makes money by making it for them.

Also, I think the Zune will also be very Windows locked in.

And as for vendor lock in, well let's face it, you can't run Windows on anything but x86 successfully, apart from Windows CE.

People put too much stock into the varying degree's that the IT Market is at. Microsoft Create a product that is used by nearly every single Hardware Vendor, and forced down the throats of every consumer who has an interest in a computer. Big brand names don't give a toss about what OS they use, it's all about the most popular product at the time, it's just that microsoft have been consistently popular. You can hurl abuse at MS Zealouts but all it really means is they fell for the billion dollar marketing trick. It's all about image kids, Microsoft is seen as the Cutting Edge, Mature guy in the IT market, Apple is it's Younger, Cooler little guy that is only just learning to walk, Linux is seen as the geeky little sister that hides in the corner and plans world domination ala Pinky and the Brain.

I would say that the Linux community is mostly seen as those communist, anti-windows, anti-american geeks who have no life but stay in their mother's basement tinkering with their pcs.



Not to mention the elitist attitude of the OSX community. They seem to feel that they can do everything better than their alternatives. They seem to be unable to grasp the concept that not everyone can pay $1000 for a midrange computer. They are rather ungrateful of anything that doesn't have a ton of excess polish on it. They seem to snub the Darwine project because "it looks uglier than a native app" same with crossover. They expect things to be handed to them and don't like to tweek things. If it isn't out of the box good it isn't worth it. Interestingly, while the OSX code may somewhat resemble Linux and BSD, the phylosophies of the two are as different as night and day. OSX seems to believe that the user should not do anything and that it has to work as is or not at all, while linux and BSD are about choice and allowing the user to do things as they like. Linux expects that the user can decide things.

From many comments I've seen about digg and slashdot, I agree with you.

[Gudanov]

Also, I think the Zune will also be very Windows locked in.

Zune isn't for me either. I think Microsoft blew it here, IMO the worst feature of the iPod is that it only works with iTunes. Since the Zune has the same limitation with Microsoft's music site, it doesn't have an advantage. I'd rather have a music player that could work with any music site. The market doesn't appear to be going that way though.


And as for vendor lock in, well let's face it, you can't run Windows on anything but x86 successfully, apart from Windows CE.


Last time I checked there was more than one company making x86 machines. But certainly Windows doesn't have the flexibility of Linux in that regard.

There's plenty I don't like about Windows too, but at least you don't have to buy the hardware from one company. But Windows users don't extoll the virtues of Microsoft the way Apple users do.

I don't hate either company though, they have their place. Apple is great for a lot of people since everything is single sourced and thus is more likely to just work. That same single sourcing just isn't my thing.

[Gudanov]

I would say that the Linux community is mostly seen as those communist, anti-windows, anti-american geeks who have no life but stay in their mother's basement tinkering with their pcs.

I don't think that's really true. On the server side Linux is very well established. The desktop side is still pretty much the domain of the geeky crowd, but I've never gotten the impression that there is an anti-American image. Outside the Linux community, I doubt anyone pays much attention to the free-as-in-freedom aspect. I don't really pay that much attention to it either even though I use a Linux desktop.

[Frak]

I don't think that's really true. On the server side Linux is very well established. The desktop side is still pretty much the domain of the geeky crowd, but I've never gotten the impression that there is an anti-American image. Outside the Linux community, I doubt anyone pays much attention to the free-as-in-freedom aspect. I don't really pay that much attention to it either even though I use a Linux desktop.
You don't think its anti-american, read this (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=314230&page=4&highlight=an+ubuntu+story)

[3rdalbum]

And as for vendor lock in, well let's face it, you can't run Windows on anything but x86 successfully, apart from Windows CE.

There was a version of Windows NT for PowerPC. Windows runs on all x86 machines as long as they have enough memory - try running OS X on a Genesi PPC machine or an IBM server, and you'll see exactly how much OS X is locked to Apple hardware.

[Alfa989]

There was a version of Windows NT for PowerPC.

Which actually didn't work quite well...](*,)

[beefcurry]

the iphone, new and crap :D. (go on someone quote me and disagree)

apart from the pretty side it is really exaggerated, the QVGA screen has been around for handheld devices since 2002 (i had a ipaq ppc with that..thought it was slightly larger but same thinkness) and the "amazing 5 hours of playback time" made me laugh. my Dopod 838pro owns it in everyway possible, hardware and software.

Back to the point: iPhone is not even a smart phone.

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/09/iphone-will-not-allow-user-installable-applications/
http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/09/the-iphone-is-not-a-smartphone/

it does not allow thirdparty programs. Therefore if i want Skype, or msn messenger, yahoo chat...irc....stock market exchange info, or any other program i cant have it!

them showing off the on screen keyboard was soo funny i was laughing my a** off, ive been fed up with it since the pocket pc days...why do you think all the new pda phones are coming out with keyboards?!

[justinflavin]

I am a bit curious to know why most Linux users dislike Apple even worse than Microsoft. Is it because all of their hardware and software is not 100% free and Open Source and stealable, or is it because they have Microsoft support, or they own the most popular UNIX derivative and "are taking up our UNIX space"? :confused:
"must Linux users dislike Apple"?

huh? thats news to me.

(cant wait to get my hands on an iPhone..)

[justinflavin]

http://www.tuaw.com/2007/01/09/iphone-will-not-allow-user-installable-applications/



errr.. re-read that link again. he got the info from a "booth attendant".

and one of the commenters makes a valid point:

"What does it mean to minimize, or hide an application? Where would a dock sit? Placing mac os x application complexity would make the phone unusable."

solution: expect an iphone API so that developers , like skype, release iphone versions of their apps, so that the apps fit in with the form factor of the device.

[Frak]

Wasn't Apple just recently sued for the name of the Phone? That iPhone was already being used by somebody else.

[Extreme Coder]

I don't really dislike Apple, but I am not in a love affair with it either. The only thing I dislike about Apple is the way they treat you that you live in RichVille, everybody beside you and everybody you know has a Mac. Lots of Apple's programs are evidence of that. But I have to admit that OS X design, especially application installing, is something every OS should learn from. If Ubuntu just had a similar program installing system ... :P

[Enverex]

Wasn't Apple just recently sued for the name of the Phone? That iPhone was already being used by somebody else.

Yeah, Cisco owns the rights to the name so Apple can't legally use it. But I'm sure Apple will put out more propaganda, er, sorry, "adverts and notices" and the fan boys and other assorted brainwashed lemmings will happily eat it all up. It's really quite disturbing.

[Frak]

If Ubuntu just had a similar program installing system ... :P

Doesn't Klik (http://klik.atekon.de/) count?

[victor_c26]

I've met one person that uses, or at least knows about linux that hates Apple. I don't know why though. Even when he told me his reasons: "OSX uses Unix, so it's just Linux with a pretty face."

He's sort of right, but considering all things, it was still a garbage argument.

[3rdalbum]

But I have to admit that OS X design, especially application installing, is something every OS should learn from. If Ubuntu just had a similar program installing system ... :P

Except on Linux, BSD and Syllable, the installation methods of programs are not mandated by the OS developer.

So you shouldn't be giving Apple the credit for having drag'n'drop installation - it's just as possible to do it on Windows. People who develop programs for Windows have this obsession with having you click "Next, Next, Next"... probably because the typical Windows user would be confused if asked to do anything else to install a program. I'm sure you could do it on Linux too, but Linux developers prefer that you don't have multiple copies of the same library on your hard disk (for security and anti-bloat reasons), and so that's partly the reason why they use a dependencies-based system.

Personally, I'd prefer to download a 700k program and maybe have to manually resolve some dependencies, than download a 5 megabytes program even when I already have all the libraries. My disk has two equal partitions for Windows and Linux, and although I have many more programs and files on here than I do on the Windows side, I'm only using 1 gig more on Linux (including 662 megs of swap).

[GermanFafian]

I have to admit that OS X design, especially application installing, is something every OS should learn from. If Ubuntu just had a similar program installing system ... :P
What is so hard about apt-get? :-k
I find it even easier and more logical than window's install system. At least I don get my pc full of redundant libraries.

[Enverex]

People that are still replying "what's wrong with Apple?" or "why would anyone hate Apple" PLEASE READ THE THREAD. It gives you many good reasons to mainly because Apple is against everything GNU/Linux stands for and visa versa.

[Caraibes]

I dislike Apple because it offers overpriced hardware for snobbish people... It's all about the hype.

I am totally on the opposite of the Mac image, since I value recycling older PC's and being able to canibalize parts from various PC's to form a new one.

For me hardware freedom is almost as important as software freedom. And yes, I use Linux only.

I just can't follow the Hollywood hype, when you see the heroes in the movies with a Mac, and the bad guys with a black Dell PC ! This just doesn't work for me, it is too easy s a propaganda.

I always assembled my own PC's, so Mac are just not for me.

I also dislike the elitism that Steve Jobs sports...

To me, Mac are further away from Freedom as even M$... You can't even install their MacOS on a generic hardware...

I don't use Ipods, and I don't care for their fashion-vicitm's style...

[geoken]

I view Apple exactly as I view Microsoft. When put in a industry leading position (iTunes/iPod) they have demonstrated that they will act exactly as Microsoft does. They use their software and hardware to limit choice and force artificial links between their products.

Do you think that the iPod is the only player capable of playing protected AACs because no other DAP maker feels like tapping the vast market of iTunes customers? Of course not. It's because Apple refuses to allow any other DAP to play protected AACs.

I hear many people saying they dislike MS because MS forces themeselves on you, yet it's painfully obvious that in this same position Apple goes to even greater lengths to force themeselves on you. Apple disables the chipset in the iPods (which can natively play WMVs) in order to keep these files off it's player, and by extension weaken the formats market presence. Conversely, MS openly advertises the Zune's ability to play AAC files.

Given my personal feelings on intelectual patents, I also have a hard time respecting a company that proudly proclaims it's managed to use over 200 intelectual patents in a single product.

Basically, Apple has shown me one thing. When they're in a position where they can call the shots, they have no aversion to forcing the use of not only their software but also their hardware.

[Alfa989]

People that are still replying "what's wrong with Apple?" or "why would anyone hate Apple" PLEASE READ THE THREAD. It gives you many good reasons to mainly because Apple is against everything GNU/Linux stands for and visa versa.

Well, Apple releases open source apps, so it doesn't stand against GNU...:)

[Alfa989]

I dislike Apple because it offers overpriced hardware for snobbish people... It's all about the hype.

Well, for example, find a laptop that has the exact same specs as a MacBook, and then look at the price tag... The PC is gonna be more expensive... :-D

P.S: I am not "snoobish", and I use Macs because they are the best solution for desktop computers... :)

[Lord Illidan]

Well, Apple releases open source apps, so it doesn't stand against GNU...:)

What opensource apps?

[geoken]

Well, for example, find a laptop that has the exact same specs as a MacBook, and then look at the price tag... The PC is gonna be more expensive... :-D



Which Macbook?

[Hendrixski]

Are you kidding me? The last time anybody had anything bad to say about Apple was when it was running on OS9, which sucked. OS X is a big part of the dream of Linux come true. it's a Unix based operating system, with really cool graphics stuff, easy to use, fun, and virus free. It's well worth the price-tag.

Now if only it were open source.

[geoken]

OS X is a big part of the dream of Linux come true............

Now if only it were open source.


These two comments seem to contradict each other. A big part of the dream of Linux centers around the free software movement. If you take that away, even a Microsoft rivaling market share wont be fullfiling 'the dream of Linux'.

[Lord Illidan]

These two comments seem to contradict each other. A big part of the dream of Linux centers around the free software movement. If you take that away, even a Microsoft rivaling market share wont be fullfiling 'the dream of Linux'.

Well said. The dream of Linux is not to overthrow Windows. Torvalds did not create Linux to overthrow it. In fact, it was thanks to his releasing the software under the free software licence that Linux is so popular today.

[aysiu]

Well said. The dream of Linux is not to overthrow Windows. Torvalds did not create Linux to overthrow it. In fact, it was thanks to his releasing the software under the free software licence that Linux is so popular today.
Let's keep in mind, though, that several Linux distros (Ubuntu included) have as their goal to rival Microsoft (if not to "overthrow" it).

That is what Bug #1 is, after all.

[mushroom]

A big part of the dream of Linux

No one should ever assume that there's a single goal of Linux as a whole. Remember, Linux is a kernel, and tons of projects use this kernel. Not all of these projects have the same exact objectives or morals (Linspire Vs. gNewSense or something).

[Frak]

From what I know, I would rather have Microsoft be fortunate on Vista then let OSX rein supreme, its a beautiful OS, but its made with bad intentions, no one should ever have to be forced to use something they don't want to, I like NVidia cards better than Apple cards, can I change that, not in one way, exept to emulate the hardware, thus risking going to jail.

Microsoft makes you install whatever they want you to, upgrade to whatever they want you to, and they act as a monarchy and hide truths from the people, but at least you can change your hardware.

Apple makes you install what they want, upgrade to what they want, upgrade to whatever they want, and they are fascist over hardware present.

Linux gives you the freedom to choose what you install, choose if you upgrade, and all information is present, as it is all open source, and best of all, you can choose the hardware you want, and they won't charge you a dime. A Revolution in computing.

Microsoft is a Monarchy, Apple is a Fascism, and Linux is the Revolution.

[mushroom]

From what I know, I would rather have Microsoft be fortunate on Vista then let OSX rein supreme, its a beautiful OS, but its made with bad intentions, no one should ever have to be forced to use something they don't want to, I like NVidia cards better than Apple cards, can I change that, not in one way, exept to emulate the hardware, thus risking going to jail.

Uhh...yeah, that's wrong. I can change whatever hardware on my Mac mini I want. It wouldn't be incredibly easy, but Apple's Mac Pro invites that kind of thing. Also, there's no such thing as an "Apple card".

Apple makes you install what they want, upgrade to what they want, upgrade to whatever they want, and they are facist over hardware present.

This is because they sell computers as if they were appliances. They want the home computer to work perfectly and without fail; reliable like your microwave is reliable. They don't sell operating systems, they sell systems. That's it. The completed experience; the thing that takes less than ten minutes to set up and does a whole bunch of stuff right out of the box. Never consider them anything else.

[Frak]

Also, there's no such thing as an "Apple card".

I was using that term figuratively, saying that you can't replace parts, "Apple Card" being like RAM or other peripherals.

[Alfa989]

I was using that term figuratively, saying that you can't replace parts, "Apple Card" being like RAM or other peripherals.

Yo can replace the RAM chips in whatever Mac you want...:)

[Alfa989]

Which Macbook?

Anyone of the line... :)

[Alfa989]

What opensource apps?

Darwin, TextEdit, and other several ones, I don't know the complete list...

[victor_c26]

What is so hard about apt-get? :-k
I find it even easier and more logical than window's install system. At least I don get my pc full of redundant libraries.

A lot of people are intimidated by terminal/prompt screens.

If I show the Terminal or the C:\ prompt to friends of mine, their response would surely be "Ugh".

[aysiu]

I had a hard time with apt-get and fink on OS X as well. It's functioning straight out of the box in Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros.

On OS X, it's a lot more complicated. Don't believe me? Read the Fink instructions just for installation:
http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/bundled/install-fast.php

[Frak]

Yo can replace the RAM chips in whatever Mac you want...:)

I didn't mean you couldn't replace parts, in fact the inside of a Mac Pro is very clean, you just have to lift the back switch thing to be able to free the parts, like the HD brackets, and the RAM holster, but what I meant was, you can ONLY replace it with ONLY Apple Parts.

[victor_c26]

I don't think that's true either, at least with Memory dimms and hard drives.

Video cards probably, but not HDs and memory dimms.

[Alfa989]

I had a hard time with apt-get and fink on OS X as well. It's functioning straight out of the box in Ubuntu and other Debian-based distros.

On OS X, it's a lot more complicated. Don't believe me? Read the Fink instructions just for installation:
http://fink.sourceforge.net/doc/bundled/install-fast.php

Well, for me it came with an installer...:confused:

I suppose it does...

Edited: It does include an installer...

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/8582/finkel2.th.png (http://img131.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finkel2.png)

[Alfa989]

I didn't mean you couldn't replace parts, in fact the inside of a Mac Pro is very clean, you just have to lift the back switch thing to be able to free the parts, like the HD brackets, and the RAM holster, but what I meant was, you can ONLY replace it with ONLY Apple Parts.

Nope, any part you want. Applies for RAM, HDD, GPU, Processor... and so on...:)

[maddog39]

Hmm.. this is strange. I mean I love my PowerBook and have loved it for years. Although until now, I've never really realized how closed source and proprietary apple tries to be. Whoever said that Microsoft isnt as bad with proprietary and closed source, your right. Although apple does have the sources for Darwin on their website, some of which were made by apple.

Also, Apple submits some of its code every year to the FreeBSD project. So I suppose they arent that bad. But they definetly make themselves look really proprietary.

http://developer.apple.com/opensource/

[teaker1s]

:-k not all bad then

[rai4shu2]

Anything is better than Microsoft. Even Apple.

[Enverex]

Anything is better than Microsoft. Even Apple.

Apple aren't better, they're quite a bit worse, they are just smaller.

[OneSeventeen]

Apple is a sign of what can happen when a *nix box standardizes.

Imagine if Ubuntu decided to set some standards and say all of our apps must be developed for a specific desktop environment (such as either KDE or gnome, not both), then imagine that there was an Ubuntu specific IDE that made developing for Ubuntu super easy (including accessing lower level stuff, such as wifi and graphics).

I know this would mean Ubuntu would have to choose a hardware manufacturer, but if they did team up with someone, such as Dell, HP, or IBM, then they would be able to code specifically for the hardware they are using and add the same controls to that hardware.

This would limit developers' rights and freedoms, but would in turn make development much easier.

So there are 2 reasons I don't like apples:
1. I think their commercials are funny but completely false.
2. I think they show us what Linux could have done a few years ago if we weren't so busy being opinionated and getting our feelings hurt all the time.

I know that most of the way they get things done is by signing expensive contracts with various hardware manufacturers, I'm sure, but surely Linux could decide at least one platform to run really well on for the end user. (maybe there is a distro out there targeting hardware, but I haven't found them, and older releases of Ubuntu are the only ones that have come close to supporting my laptop's hardware out of the box.)

Anyway, here's hoping we can stop Apple from being the only *nix based OS that actually functions reliably on a daily basis for the end user.
</superOpinionatedStatements>

[GermanFafian]

Anyway, here's hoping we can stop Apple from being the only *nix based OS that actually functions reliably on a daily basis for the end user.
</superOpinionatedStatements>
Kubuntu works reliably on my daughter's desktop and Ubuntu does the same in my HP laptop (well, excluding the Broadcom thingy but it only took 5 minutes to get it working) and so have Fedora, Mepis and Suse before I decided on Ubuntu. So I have no idea what you mean by this comment :-k
BTW. After reading thru this thread and and talking to a few Mac users I'm starting to see Apple under a different scope.
Later. :twisted:

[Kateikyoushi]

It is interesting how you compare a 3-year old iBook with a recent VAIO :twisted:

Ati 9700 and Pentium M recent ??? Wake up, not that you had a mac under 2Kg... :-\"

[kazuya]

for desktop, a pc would win anyday over a mac for my use as I can easily upgrade my system parts and components at an affordable price and with ease. For laptop or notebooks, well that is a different subject. I actually love the design of the macbook pro and the OS. But more importantly, I like the fact that you can run linux on it. Windows is good as well on it, but not my cup of tea.

I would agree that Mac, like linux has less exploits & is more secure than windows and manages resources better. But every OS has their advantages.

On the other side of the argument, not many people upgrade their machines they just use it and eventually chug it off for a newer one. So a macintosh may infact still be as affordable and the quality of their OS is undoubtably good. However, it is easier to have a more supped PC than a supped Macintosh.

[aysiu]

I've merged the Apple and OS X threads and retitled the thread to reflect the merger, since the two topics seem to overlap a lot.

[Macintosh Sauce]

Mac OS X rocks! Elegance and user experience are the reasons why.

Macintosh computers are very affordable now. Recently, I purchased a Mac Pro 3.00 GHz configuration from Apple. To get the same thing from "cheapo" DELL would have cost me $1000 more. Apple is no longer more expensive than buying a DELL computer.

[Enverex]

Macintosh computers are very affordable now. Recently, I purchased a Mac Pro 3.00 GHz configuration from Apple. To get the same thing from "cheapo" DELL would have cost me $1000 more. Apple is no longer more expensive than buying a DELL computer.

A machine with a 3Ghz (P4 I assume) processor in shouldn't cost $1000, nevermind the $2000 or so you're claiming. What was the Apple machine you bought?

[Macintosh Sauce]

A machine with a 3Ghz (P4 I assume) processor in shouldn't cost $1000, nevermind the $2000 or so you're claiming. What was the Apple machine you bought?
Apple doesn't make any computers with the cheap P4, since they only use CoreDuo, Core2Duo, and dual-core Xeon processors.

You will have to go to the specs page as there are too many to list here. The dual-core Xeon processor is absolutely beautiful IMO, and two of them are even better.

http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html

I got the following:
http://www.seascape.us/jrhodes/macsignaturebar1-small.png

Soon, I am expanding it with another 4 GB FB-DIMM memory and much more HD space.

[Enverex]

Yeah, that'll be because the ones from Dell with Xeons in will have been servers. Using Xeons for a desktop is just plain silly, Core2Duo's would have been more effective, ATi cards for Linux are also a bad idea not to mention you're using slower and more expensive ECC RAM.

I'm curious why you chose that machine... and why you write in green...

[Kateikyoushi]

I agree with it that Macs got cheaper after the transition and I would rather recommend it to someone than buy a PC with win to support the evil empire, the 13" Macbooks for 130 000Y are just killer.

Xeon configs are not really in the dells profile so I doubt that 1000USD still stands for desktops and notebooks.

[kazuya]

For notebooks, macbooks and then toshibas. OSX really looks lovely on a notebook. For desktop, I still have to take the PCs. Aple should be worried about this thing added by microsoft that prevents dualbooting windows in parallel with Linux and OSX as well.

I would say apple should partner with linux or the open source to see that this does not get allowed as it means their future users may be sidewined again on gaming when Vista rolls out to the desktop.

They could also assist crossover office or codeweaver and wine developments.

Just my two cents. I love where apple is going though. I hope they catch on to this strategy.

[tigerpants]

Charlie Brooker wrote a nice little article on Macs. Says it all for me:

I hate Macs (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2006031,00.html)

:)

[raul_]

Here is the series (Not the Webb and Mitchell. These are the US ones. Not as funny, but still, they can get a smile out of you).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ReS_ur4Kc&mode=related&search=

[runningwithscissors]

This is brilliant ...
The ads are adapted from a near-identical American campaign - the only difference is the use of Mitchell and Webb. They are a logical choice in one sense (everyone likes them), but a curious choice in another, since they are best known for the television series Peep Show - probably the best sitcom of the past five years - in which Mitchell plays a repressed, neurotic underdog, and Webb plays a selfish, self-regarding poseur. So when you see the ads, you think, "PCs are a bit rubbish yet ultimately lovable, whereas Macs are just smug, preening tossers." In other words, it is a devastatingly accurate campaign.

:D

[tigerpants]

It was all the more ironic for me, as I attended a multi-agency meeting for work a few days ago, and several people turned up with their tupperware Mac powerbooks or whatever they are called, and there was me with me £399 E-systems laptop with linux, and they were all very "oh, you don't have a Mac...." I just smiled and thought "thank God."

I then pointed out to one particular Mac-idiot after the meeting, that he'd just paid 2.5 times the amount for a machine that was inherently the same as mine, but not as good a spec as my lappy, and running a bloated UNIX based OS.

The irony of it all.

[Cyfr]

His argument is **** but he writes so so well :D

[insane_alien]

what annoys me about those ads is that it enforces the 'PC is synomynous(sp?) with windows' myth. when was the last time you seen a linux PC with a virus.

[raul_]

what annoys me about those ads is that it enforces the 'PC is synomynous(sp?) with windows' myth. when was the last time you seen a linux PC with a virus.

That annoyed me too

[Somenoob]

what annoys me about those ads is that it enforces the 'PC is synomynous(sp?) with windows' myth. when was the last time you seen a linux PC with a virus.

Yea, find that annoying too.

[bastiegast]

In more than half of the ads you could have easily substituted mac with ubuntu/linux.

[laxmanb]

you hate macs? join the club.

Apple's overconfidence ticks me off more than MS ever could...

[fuscia]

those ads are horrible (i've only seen the american ones). i hate that mac guy. he's on my top ten list of people not to be treated in accordance with the ubuntu code of ethics. [ah]kill!kill!kill!!![/choo!]

[darkhatter]

If you truly believe you need to pick a mobile phone that "says something" about your personality, don't bother. You don't have a personality.


this will be posted on all mac vs win flamewars

[TheWizzard]

http://www.rollingstone.com/rockdaily/index.php/2007/02/08/is-apple-the-new-evil-empire/

[jeffc313]

my uncle recently switched to mac... I left a gentoo and kubuntu cds at his house once, the next time i went over, they both havnt mooved. Needless to say, we havent spoken since.

[aysiu]

Moved to the Mac OS X forum.

[3rdalbum]

my uncle recently switched to mac... I left a gentoo and kubuntu cds at his house once, the next time i went over, they both havnt mooved. Needless to say, we havent spoken since.

My grandfather bought a second-hand Mac as his first computer, so I gave him an old version of Encarta encyclopedia on CD-ROM.

The next time I went over, I found the Encarta disc in his stereo system :-)

Sadly, although Mac users all reckon they're about "think different", a great many of them don't actually want to "think different" about what they run on their computers.

[Alfa989]

I then pointed out to one particular Mac-idiot after the meeting, that he'd just paid 2.5 times the amount for a machine that was inherently the same as mine, but not as good a spec as my lappy, and running a bloated UNIX based OS.


Bloated UNIX based OS?? Well, Mac OS X works and looks better than Ubuntu.... And I don't have to go through a looks-simple-but-it's-not installation process...:)

P.S: Please don't insult a 4,8 of the OS market... :(

[Auria]

What is all this trolling about? Completely useless

[dawg]

Don't see why everyone(several people at least) seems to hate APPLE. Its kind of like linux in a sense. Several people that I know don't like linux because its not as easy, and "the lack of programs" available for it. Its an OS made for nerds that don't have lives. Trust me, I've heard several untruths. Each OS has its ups and downs, I've been running Ubuntu as my primary os for 6 days now, and boy does it suck(not ubuntu itself), its just that I've gotten so used to windows. I've pretty much gotten alternatives for every single piece of software that I used to use on Win. I recently purchased a mac mini for my htpc(cant beat the price) and sent it off to compusa to get repaired, first experience with my mac will be a lasting one. When ever I get it back though, you can garuante that all software that i used on both ubuntu and windows will be on it. OOo, VLC, just to name a few. Thank god for cross-platform and the open source world makes the transition a lot easier.

[aysiu]

I've merged this with the "what do you think" thread.

If you want to hate, hate here, but love, indifference, and mixed feelings are also a bit more welcome with this subject title.

[Frak]

Well I hate Apple and I hate Microsoft, but here I'll talk why I hate Apple...

1. Steve Jobs is nuts.
Face it, he is.

2. Macs are rediculously overpriced, for slack hardware.
I own a Mac Pro, cost me around 4k, I paid about 3k too much.

3. Mac stole the GUI from Xerox (then MS stole it from Apple... go figure)
If you didn't know that, you do now.

4. Mac was made to satisfy hype that it will never achieve.
Intel should have never invested in them.

5. Steve Jobs is nuts.
'nuff said. He made his Apple ][ Team fight with his Mac team, where there was no need when the Mac was going to be released anyways.

6. Steve Wozniac is funny
OK not an insult, but, really, you have to admit, he is pretty funny.

and finally

7. Steve Jobs is nuts.
Deal with it, he just is.



1/2 seriousness

Frak

[3rdalbum]

Don't see why everyone(several people at least) seems to hate APPLE. Its kind of like linux in a sense.

Huh? It's less like Linux than Syllable is. OS X is not open-source. Even the part that Apple provides the "source code" for (Darwin) is full of closed binaries, and the whole lot requires black magic to build unless you're an Apple employee. Bug fixes to Darwin can take up to a year to be implemented, and so you don't know if someone at Apple has already fixed the bug for the next version, because Apple doesn't allow public access to its bug tracker.

Apple's hardware still must be reverse-engineered to work with real open-source operating systems, as few specifications are released.

Linux encompasses a lot of intruiging projects, but most of Apple's open-source (using the term loosely) projects are things that no-one wants to hack around on, and aren't any use to anybody. The exception to the rule is Webkit; and even that is hard for normal people to build (and Apple's engineers stopped submitting bug fixes and new features to KHTML for a while, remember that?).

Oh sure. If you mean "OS X is like Linux because you can run the same terminal commands and there's an X server", then yes; OS X is like Linux in that way. But Linux isn't about commands, it's about being open and free. Apple know nothing about openness and freedom.

[dawg]

whoa guy, calm down... I meant that Apple is like Linux in the sense, that people who use either are considered odd/nerdy, going against the grain. Correct me if im wrong, but aren't both OSX and Linux built around Unix? I still like them though. Great alternatives, and great programs for all.

[jincast90]

I think Mac are somewhere realated to Unix because it is based on FreeBSD which I think shares some code with the original Unix. Linux although is its own.

I found this Unix timeline: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Unix_history-simple.png

It does not say anything about Apple OS X, but you can see that Linux is not related to UNIX.

[Alfa989]

Well I hate Apple and I hate Microsoft, but here I'll talk why I
Macs are rediculously overpriced, for slack hardware.
I own a Mac Pro, cost me around 4k, I paid about 3k too much.

http://www.box.net/p/alfa98920530 (Download the PDF)


Mac stole the GUI from Xerox (then MS stole it from Apple... go figure)
If you didn't know that, you do now.

Apple bought the project from Xerox, the guys at Palo Alto didn't think that the GUI could have any real use...

Mac was made to satisfy hype that it will never achieve.
Intel should have never invested in them.

Macs are not about hype or coolness, they're about ease of use and doing things out of the box... and all those things people seem to like... :)

[Frak]

http://www.box.net/p/alfa98920530 (Download the PDF)

Umm... I was talking about Custom built computers, not OEM's, because my Custom cost way lless than an actual Mac, or a OEM like Dell.


Apple bought the project from Xerox, the guys at Palo Alto didn't think that the GUI could have any real use...

But I meant that they werent the innovators they claimed themselves to be.


Macs are not about hype or coolness, they're about ease of use and doing things out of the box... and all those things people seem to like... :)

You don't listen to the media much, do you?...

[erlyrisa]

Like many others posting in this thread... as apple's computers evolved I pretty much hated thier computers and OS - it's only the recent OSX which is actually pretty darn nifty - yet I would have to say that I still don't like thier hardware, it may look cool, and is probably more convenient for the average person, but I like to be able to buy my computer as modular as possible with as much of a choice in hardware and software as possible .... Mac is for people that like to go to Apple dealers and just by things that have apple logos on them ... THE PC was always for the geek and the non-latté sippers that need to look at thier wallet before they choose an accounting package to buy or a new ram stick that doesn't necessarily have to be certified in order for it to work.

-although I always wished PC's would have a better BIOS like apple has.

[Alfa989]

Umm... I was talking about Custom built computers, not OEM's, because my Custom cost way lless than an actual Mac, or a OEM like Dell.

But then, if you choose all the same good-quality components, it would cost around the same money... :-)

But I meant that they werent the innovators they claimed themselves to be.

They were... The Xerox Star used a GUI where icons represented actions, not objects...

You don't listen to the media much, do you?...

Why do you say so?

[geoken]

But then, if you choose all the same good-quality components, it would cost around the same money... :-)




If the big battery fiasco has shown us anything, it's that the supposed 'higher-end' components within the Mac are the exact same as the supposed 'bargain-basement' components found within your average Dell. In both cases they are lesser, or at best equal to, what the average person can purchase from the computer store down the street.

Buying the components from a computer store, even the exact same components, would be far cheaper for the average consumer. For example, Apple charges you $175 for 1g of 667mhz DDR 2. You'd be hard pressed to find this ram for over $100. Quality suppliers like OCZ, Crucial and Mushkin sell it in the 70-80 dollar price range. In the Mac pro they'll charge you $200 to upgrade from the 250gg Sata 3g to the 500gb Sata 3g. The drive itself only costs $200 ratail, yet they're charging that as the upgrade price.

[3rdalbum]

-although I always wished PC's would have a better BIOS like apple has.

Ten years ago, I told a PC-using friend that Macs didn't have a BIOS. He laughed; didn't believe me.

Today, most PC users still don't know that Macs don't have a BIOS. Even Linux users, who know that there's an alternative to Windows, don't seem to realise that there's an alternative to BIOS. It's been around for a quarter of a century and places ridiculous limitations on your computer's booting capabilities, yet Intel and Sun seem to be the only ones who have developed replacements.

I'll never buy another Mac, for the same reason that I'll never buy another iTunes Music card. But I do wish my PC had EFI, Open Firmware, or LinuxBIOS.

[Alfa989]

If the big battery fiasco has shown us anything, it's that the supposed 'higher-end' components within the Mac are the exact same as the supposed 'bargain-basement' components found within your average Dell. In both cases they are lesser, or at best equal to, what the average person can purchase from the computer store down the street.

Buying the components from a computer store, even the exact same components, would be far cheaper for the average consumer. For example, Apple charges you $175 for 1g of 667mhz DDR 2. You'd be hard pressed to find this ram for over $100. Quality suppliers like OCZ, Crucial and Mushkin sell it in the 70-80 dollar price range. In the Mac pro they'll charge you $200 to upgrade from the 250gg Sata 3g to the 500gb Sata 3g. The drive itself only costs $200 ratail, yet they're charging that as the upgrade price.

Mmm... No one buys RAM from the Apple Store, I got a 512Mb stick at the Kingston Store...
About the HDDs, you can go to any store, get the Drive, go home and install it without any tools...

[Frak]

Ten years ago, I told a PC-using friend that Macs didn't have a BIOS. He laughed; didn't believe me.

Today, most PC users still don't know that Macs don't have a BIOS. Even Linux users, who know that there's an alternative to Windows, don't seem to realise that there's an alternative to BIOS. It's been around for a quarter of a century and places ridiculous limitations on your computer's booting capabilities, yet Intel and Sun seem to be the only ones who have developed replacements.

I'll never buy another Mac, for the same reason that I'll never buy another iTunes Music card. But I do wish my PC had EFI, Open Firmware, or LinuxBIOS.
ummm..... I think you mean UEFI
Microsoft stated that they would consider implementing UEFI support in 2nd Generations of Vista.
Linux can already support it out of the box (finally)
And is being considered to be overlayed on top of BIOS chips on the market today, not to be as fast as a Mac startup, but a great increase in performance.
And it works like this
UEFI Booting Process <-Pre<-|->->OS->->
<-Boot<-|->Booted->
UEFI Driver UEFI App. UEFI Boot Code ->->-> OS Loader
\ / / \ |
Platform ->->-> UEFI ->->-> UEFI OS Boot |
Init Image Loader Services |
Load Load Terminate |

BIOS Boot Process
BIOS reads the CMOS to find info about your system -> BIOS Loads Device drivers and probes the hardware-> BIOS Tests & Calculates RAM ->
BIOS Probes Keyboard and figures out what kind of keyboard it is -> BIOS Performs POST (Probes again) -> BIOS Reads the MBR and from there the OS boots.



I thought I'd share some insight.... :guitar:
I own a few Macs and have explored into how they work many a times :lolflag:

[TheWizzard]

whoa guy, calm down... I meant that Apple is like Linux in the sense, that people who use either are considered odd/nerdy, going against the grain.

osx users are wannabes who think you can buy personality.

[3rdalbum]

Microsoft stated that they would consider implementing UEFI support in 2nd Generations of Vista.

They said that for the first generation - the earliest beta had support for it before it was pulled. But really, Microsoft is not going to support it outside the server, as it makes it easier for people to install and use alternative operating systems.

And is being considered to be overlayed on top of BIOS chips on the market today, not to be as fast as a Mac startup, but a great increase in performance.

Honestly, I don't notice a difference in startup speed between my PC and my Mac, but I *do* notice that there are fewer complicated technical concepts when setting up a dual-boot on the Mac. Just create as many partitions as you want - no need to worry about "primary", "extended", "logical" partitions, no complicated "master boot record" or restrictions of where on your disk an operating system can be.

I own a few Macs and have explored into how they work many a times :lolflag:

But Apple doesn't want you to know!

[Frak]

They said that for the first generation - the earliest beta had support for it before it was pulled. But really, Microsoft is not going to support it outside the server, as it makes it easier for people to install and use alternative operating systems.
MS feeling some competition eh... ;)



Honestly, I don't notice a difference in startup speed between my PC and my Mac, but I *do* notice that there are fewer complicated technical concepts when setting up a dual-boot on the Mac. Just create as many partitions as you want - no need to worry about "primary", "extended", "logical" partitions, no complicated "master boot record" or restrictions of where on your disk an operating system can be.

I do notice a difference, my Mac takes like literally 5-7 seconds to fully boot.


But Apple doesn't want you to know!

:popcorn:

[Alfa989]

osx users are wannabes who think you can buy personality.

Mmm... I use OS X and that isn't my description at all! :confused:

[geoken]

Mmm... No one buys RAM from the Apple Store, I got a 512Mb stick at the Kingston Store...
About the HDDs, you can go to any store, get the Drive, go home and install it without any tools...

I think you missed my point. You were trying claiming that a home built PC that ends up being cheaper than a Mac would invariably be built using lower quality components then the ones found within the Mac. I was merely trying to point out that even with the priciest components on the market, it's still costing you less to build yourself than to buy a Mac. The "home built is cheaper because you're using cheap components" argument is very weak.

[Alfa989]

I think you missed my point. You were trying claiming that a home built PC that ends up being cheaper than a Mac would invariably be built using lower quality components then the ones found within the Mac. I was merely trying to point out that even with the priciest components on the market, it's still costing you less to build yourself than to buy a Mac. The "home built is cheaper because you're using cheap components" argument is very weak.

Kind of... I was claiming that sometimes it's the case, sometimes not...

Now, if you could just build a PC with the EXACT SAME specs as a 17" iMac (including camera, keyboard, mouse, noise proof case, etc...) and then tell me the price... :)

[beefcurry]

Macs have something ubuntu should learn of, especially their ability to work well with simpleton computer illiterates. Seriously anyone could pick up and use a mac. But because of that I choose not to use a mac, because It isnt extensable enough. I cannot modify nearly every aspect of it. MS windows has loads of customizations or hacks avaliable, far out numbers Apple Mac. Thats why I used Windows for most of my life, XP was stupidly easy to customize to death if you know how. Linux however provided me a new platform to explorer and customize in a completely different way, in that respect Linux invites the user to change code here and there, mix and match. Mac's however is not like that, it is pretty much WYSIWYG, everything is one click or very graphical. That is not a bad thing, but a combination of that and a massive supporting group of simpleton idiots (sorry for the generalization, but for me its very true.....) with a very exploitive bussiness stragedy (selling iPods at a 40% profit margin. even more on iPhone) really puts me off. If a Mac was a girl, then it would be a hot looking girl with a real bitch attitude.

[Alfa989]

Mac's however is not like that, it is pretty much WYSIWYG, everything is one click or very graphical. That is not a bad thing, but a combination of that and a massive supporting group of simpleton idiots (sorry for the generalization, but for me its very true.....)

Everything one click or graphical? Well, in OS X I use the keyboard for most of my tasks like copy, paste, minimizing and closing windows and apps, navigating through menus and options... :)

Simpleton idiots? When I use Windows or Linux I am forced to use the right click menu for copying and pasting just because ctrl+c and ctrl+v are awkward to reach, isn't that designed for simpletons?... :)

[aysiu]

How are Control-C and Control-V awkward to reach?

I do pinky and index finger for both keyboard combinations.

I find Cmd-C and Cmd-V awkward because they're too close together, and I end up having to curl my thumb underneath my index finger in order to press the combination quickly--not exactly a comfortable position.

[beefcurry]

How are Control-C and Control-V awkward to reach?

I do pinky and index finger for both keyboard combinations.

I find Cmd-C and Cmd-V awkward because they're too close together, and I end up having to curl my thumb underneath my index finger in order to press the combination quickly--not exactly a comfortable position.

copy that. spoke my heart out loud there :D

[Alfa989]

How are Control-C and Control-V awkward to reach?

I do pinky and index finger for both keyboard combinations.

You answered your own question there... It is uncomfortable to do that...
For example, play a game that requires crouching a lot, like Day of Defeat. That action is set to ctrl by default... After half an hour you need to rest you little finger because it gets sore... I need to change it to the option key jut to make it playable... :)

I find Cmd-C and Cmd-V awkward because they're too close together, and I end up having to curl my thumb underneath my index finger in order to press the combination quickly--not exactly a comfortable position.

Well, I find it allright... But key combinations in Mac OS/OS X are designed to be easy to reach and use... Example: quitting an applicaction under Mac OS X: Cmd+Q
" " " " Linux or Windows: Alt+F4
Go on, try them both and tell me what's more comfortable... :)

[lawrens]

I don't hate Apples at all, there's an imac and also a powerbook in my house that my family is using, infact I was the one that converted my brother into using osx and he felt really comfortable with it now surprisingly... but I enjoyed them even I use a dualboot winxp/ubuntu machine myself (xp for games and certain programs).

I don't hate MS either though, I think winxp was great which I own, I don't like vista that much for it's price but it doesn't affect me that much since I'm not going to upgrade to that for a while, I do think it was a good operating system and definately is better (isn't that the case with all windows os other than winME) than the former windows, I just don't think it's worthed the price.

Interms of gaming I decided to just go with a console so I'll be sticking with winxp for a while, won't care about dx10 for a year or 2... or 3, I recently am convinced that it's not so worth it to pay the price just to play a few dx10 games (for graphics) ever since it's a vista only thing, and I've always been a console games fan (the games not the console), but that's another thing and it's off topic =p

There're a few things with microsoft that they've done really really great, I don't know how to word it but at the same time I felt kind of tired of their products, it felt like they'd keep trying to push their own products in every market, and even if you supported it, they'd still have something done wrong and having to release a better one to make you pay for it, their lifespan is just short, that is why I liked winxp, it had its problems but its benefit over win9x and the fact it lasted that long outweighted the cons.

Of course it's a matter of point of view and how you want to use your money and what it's for, but for me I thought I'd go for a mac over windows myself if I'm going to pay. it is costy but I just like osx as an operating system more so than windows, but I like windows for a bit more flexibility and software supports, in terms of operating system I just think osx is more polished.

[Henry Rayker]

I find the ctrl-c and ctrl-v to be MUCH easier than the Apple equivalent...and I have large hands. I've never had a pinky cramp or anything of that nature playing games before...and lots of games I played had the space-bar used as well, so taking my thumb away from that would just be silly.

As far as Macs go, I don't really care for their appearance and I despise their marketing tactics. As far as the appearance goes, I just don't like gigantic pulsating icons or their over-use of color; I'm not allergic to eye-candy (I use E17) but I just prefer something more...classy, I guess. The marketing, though, is just stupid..."Hey! You want this...it's what all the cool kids are doing...like crack! You don't want to be that nerdy guy working with the type of machines you'll work with in the workplace, do you? Come-on...just do a line or two...it'll be great!"

[Alfa989]

I just don't like gigantic pulsating icons or their over-use of color.

Actually buttons in Gnome are bigger that buttons in Mac OS X... :) And what's the problem with the "pulse" thingy, it's almost invisible and it's only for the buttons associated with the enter key... And I don't see the over-use of color... :)

[TheWizzard]

Mmm... No one buys RAM from the Apple Store, I got a 512Mb stick at the Kingston Store...
in other words: apple hardware is overpriced.


About the HDDs, you can go to any store, get the Drive, go home and install it without any tools...

and the mac sucks it in magically? this was about internal HHD's, not external usb drives.

[insane_alien]

and the mac sucks it in magically? this was about internal HHD's, not external usb drives.

well, he could maybe undo the screws with his teeth if he had them filed down the right way...

[Alfa989]

in other words: apple hardware is overpriced.

And the mac sucks it in magically? this was about internal HHD's, not external usb drives.

1.- Jesus... I'm tired of saying this to people, but you're wrong (http://public.box.net/alfa989 "comparison.pdf")

2.- I AM talking about the internal HD...

[TheWizzard]

1.- Jesus... I'm tired of saying this to people, but you're wrong (http://public.box.net/alfa989 "comparison.pdf")

2.- I AM talking about the internal HD...

1. and i told this before: i don't know where you get this prices from, but as soon as the 17" macbook pro is around the price i pay for a laptop with the same specifications (around €1000,-) i buy one. at the moment the macbook pro is €2.789,- (http://store.apple.com/Apple/WebObjects/nlBusiness?type=biznlPRO&qprm=65643&family=MacBookPro)
i'm really sorry, but thinking an apple costs NOT at least twice as much as the equivalent is far away from reality.

2. does it really fit? my apple fanboy friends use external hdd's because they think an extra disk doesn't fit. i'll tell them they're wrong.

[Alfa989]

I'm really sorry, but thinking an apple costs NOT at least twice as much as the equivalent is far away from reality.

Geez... Have you eaten anything gone bad lately?? That's like saying that anyone that thinks that Ubuntu half as good as Windows Me is totally right! Are you crazy?

BTW: I got the prices from Apple's and Dell's online stores... You can do it any day...

Does it really fit? my apple fanboy friends use external hdd's because they think an extra disk doesn't fit. i'll tell them they're wrong.

Do I look like I care about what your friends think?

[TheWizzard]

BTW: I got the prices from Apple's and Dell's online stores... You can do it any day...


i did compare apple with other laptops. as you can see in the link in my previous post, the mac is aroun €2700. i got the equivalent (better regarding some aspects) for €1100.
that's €1600 for design and image ...

[Alfa989]

i did compare apple with other laptops. as you can see in the link in my previous post, the mac is aroun €2700. i got the equivalent (better regarding some aspects) for €1100.
that's €1600 for design and image ...

And ease of use, and reliability, and quality, and innovation, and durability, and software, and...?

[Alfa989]

I'm really sorry, but thinking an apple costs NOT at least twice as much as the equivalent is far away from reality.


Oh, really? You should take a look at this then:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2898/zz69b3b92dpd5.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz69b3b92dpd5.png)

[Frak]

Oh, really? You should take a look at this then:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2898/zz69b3b92dpd5.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz69b3b92dpd5.png)
Yes, but you must also respect System76 as a small manufacturer, they can't afford to keep prices low, but I must say, I like my System76 Darter Ultra much more than my Macbook Pro. I just like what System76 stands for, open source, TOTALLY open source. Not like Macs which are 80% proprietary.

[Raffo]

I have to say that the macbook is the first apple computer that is cheaper than the other PCs...

[Alfa989]

I have to say that the macbook is the first apple computer that is cheaper than the other PCs...

Not really, it's been the case since the first minis...

[ZERO_SHIFT]

Open source aside I prefer apple over windows, however the thing that I hate most from apple is the constrains of not enabling to customize your system as much as ubuntu does. It's simplicity drives me crazy. Apple's message to it's costumers is "Life is full of complexity, therefore our macs are so simple to use even a caveman can do it. Because we know you like simple stuff"

[TheWizzard]

Oh, really? You should take a look at this then:
http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2898/zz69b3b92dpd5.th.png (http://img339.imageshack.us/my.php?image=zz69b3b92dpd5.png)

it's the exception that proves the rule.

[Alfa989]

it's the exception that proves the rule.

Jesus... I'll stop trying to argue about anything with you because don't want or don't understand statements anyone gives you...

[AlphaMack]

And ease of use, and reliability, and quality, and innovation, and durability, and software, and...?

Spoken like a true fanboy.

[izanbardprince]

I am a bit curious to know why most Linux users dislike Apple even worse than Microsoft. Is it because all of their hardware and software is not 100% free and Open Source and stealable, or is it because they have Microsoft support, or they own the most popular UNIX derivative and "are taking up our UNIX space"? :confused:

I think I can lay out the main reasons I hate Apple:

1. Whenever they have a "Switch" testimonial, it's always some idiot that can't figure out how to plug the machine in or push the power button, or can't figure out how to use a USB camera (Hint: The driver is usually on the CD-ROM that came with it!).

2. Apple can't really find anything that Mac OS X can do that Windows can't, so they say "It's virus proof!", the problem is that it really isn't, their latest security patch for Mac OS X just plugged 45 holes, and that adds to the hundreds more that have been patched over the years, meaning that OS X isn't really all that secure, just that nobody bothers with it, and they never tell you that there are OS's for the PC like Linux that don't have a virus problem.

3. Apple is two-faced and wishy washy when it comes to things like DRM, they speak out against it, but they won't stand up against it, because they love it just as much as the RIAA does, because the whole point of selling incompatible music is to hook you into buying pricey hardware (ala iPod) to play it on.

4. If Darwin was really that great, there would be other operating systems built around it, yeah the Mach microkernel is neat, but it relies too heavily on BSD, so it might as well be a monolithic kernel, having Mach up and running with the BSD section crashing doesn't help you at all.

5. In the late 90's everyone used Real media formats, until Realplayer became bloated spyware that tried to take over and hose your entire computer, Quicktime could have been what everyone used except now it's bloated adware that insists on installing iTunes piggybacked.

:popcorn:

[3rdalbum]

4. If Darwin was really that great, there would be other operating systems built around it, yeah the Mach microkernel is neat, but it relies too heavily on BSD, so it might as well be a monolithic kernel, having Mach up and running with the BSD section crashing doesn't help you at all.

Some people did try to put together Darwin distributions, but Apple basically killed these off by not providing any of the basics that non-Apple employees would need to develop the software. The build procedure was horrendous, Darwin relied on proprietry binaries, and Apple's bug tracker was not open to the public (so no hackers could see which bugs were currently being worked on).

Now all the projects have died.

[TheWizzard]

Jesus... I'll stop trying to argue about anything with you because don't want or don't understand statements anyone gives you...

now i see the light. apple hardware is indeed better and cheaper. let's praise steve jobs. hallelujah.

[Alfa989]

now i see the light. apple hardware is indeed better and cheaper. let's praise steve jobs. hallelujah.

You don't get it, do you?

I got to the point that you are either stupid or too ******* blind, because you'll hate Apple whatever happens in your life... So good luck and bye...

[izanbardprince]

Some people did try to put together Darwin distributions, but Apple basically killed these off by not providing any of the basics that non-Apple employees would need to develop the software. The build procedure was horrendous, Darwin relied on proprietry binaries, and Apple's bug tracker was not open to the public (so no hackers could see which bugs were currently being worked on).

Now all the projects have died.


So in otherwords, Apple deliberately sabotaged the open source Darwin projects, while at the same time, allegedly promoting open source.

Kind of like how they stole Konqueror, heavily modified it, then released all their patches in large undigestible blobs.

[beefcurry]

So in otherwords, Apple deliberately sabotaged the open source Darwin projects, while at the same time, allegedly promoting open source.

Kind of like how they stole Konqueror, heavily modified it, then released all their patches in large undigestible blobs.

Exactly, just like how they forced BeOS into oblivion. They clearly take more then they give. I suppose the only good thing they gave back is to show us how Unix like systems could potentially look nice after a few million has been invested into it.

[Alfa989]

Exactly, just like how they forced BeOS into oblivion.

It wasn't Apple. It was M$ by not allowing the vendors to pre-install BeOS in their machines, because they'd be forced to pay more for OEM Windows licenses... :(

[Frak]

It wasn't Apple. It was M$ by not allowing the vendors to pre-install BeOS in their machines, because they'd be forced to pay more for OEM Windows licenses... :(
Yes but that was due to BeOS being optimized for PPC's, but since Apple would release the arch. for viewing and developing of the G3, BeOS was forced to move into the x86 market. Then M$ told vendors that BeOS could'nt be visible to the end user. It could be installed, but had to be manually booted from.

[Alfa989]

Yes but that was due to BeOS being optimized for PPC's, but since Apple would release the arch. for viewing and developing of the G3, BeOS was forced to move into the x86 market. Then M$ told vendors that BeOS could'nt be visible to the end user. It could be installed, but had to be manually booted from.

And? It was Microsoft, not Apple...

[Frak]

BeOS wouldn't have had to butt heads against Microsoft, if it wasn't for Apple hiding Arch. information. :roll:

[CGW]

The people to blame for BeOS' failing were BeOS itself, Apple and MS.

[billdotson]

What are your thoughts on Apple Inc.? Do you think that they are a marketing company that just takes advantage of the ignorant consumer who follows the trends or do they genuinely care for their customer and make products that are useful, and simple to use?

Personally I do not like Apple. I do not like the way their products as superior and all sleek and simple. Look at Apple TV, you pay $300 for it and it doesn't really stream anything other than proprietary Apple stuff. The X360 for instance you can play games on AND stream media to it. While the X360 is also proprietary.. although only in video streaming, but then again you can still get TVersity and stream pretty much anything. The only thing I coudn't get to stream through TVersity are my wma music files. The iPod is a pretty good product, but IMO there are other products out there that do just as well for sometimes less $. AFAIK the Zune was not accepted with open arms because it didn't have a fancy click wheel. Why is the click wheel such a big deal? Can't you just as easy click down on the wheel and navigate through your media?

What are your thoughts.. does Apple really have good products? Do they really care about their customers or is there main goal to reel those "suckers" in with all their trendy products?

Personally I do not like Apple but I would like to see what the general consensus about Apple is.

[ubuntuman001]

personally, I think no company wants its consumers to have every advantage; all that companies want is to make the most profit possible, to the detriment of the consumers.

While apple fanboyism is just as ugly as windows fanboyism (or even linux fanboyism), apple does create pretty sleek products, the best example of which is the iPhone (that looks awesome, even though its expensive, for what it has it is fairly priced)

[izanbardprince]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

Sums up my thoughts.

[maniacmusician]

their products are average, but I hate the company.

[Hex_Mandos]

I think Apple is far worse than Microsoft. Apple is devoted to creating closed platforms, as Steve Jobs has repeatedly said. I'd rather have an open platform with Windows (with tons of third party software, the ability to upgrade my hardware myself, etc.) than a closed DRMed computer which I can't touch. MS is a monopoly, but it remembers the days before it was one... it doesn't try as hard as Apple to mesh hardware and software.

[izanbardprince]

I think Apple is far worse than Microsoft. Apple is devoted to creating closed platforms, as Steve Jobs has repeatedly said. I'd rather have an open platform with Windows (with tons of third party software, the ability to upgrade my hardware myself, etc.) than a closed DRMed computer which I can't touch. MS is a monopoly, but it remembers the days before it was one... it doesn't try as hard as Apple to mesh hardware and software.

The hardware isn't really where the profit is these days.

Microsoft could care less about the razor thin margins of selling you a computer when they invest next to nothing in the $100 copy of Windows that comes with the computer.

[RAV TUX]

I think Apple is far worse than Microsoft. Apple is devoted to creating closed platforms, as Steve Jobs has repeatedly said. I'd rather have an open platform with Windows (with tons of third party software, the ability to upgrade my hardware myself, etc.) than a closed DRMed computer which I can't touch. MS is a monopoly, but it remembers the days before it was one... it doesn't try as hard as Apple to mesh hardware and software.

I agree Apple is worse then Microsoft, I would buy a Windows machine over an Apple any day, I would buy Dell over Apple...

Friends don't let friends buy Apple Computers!

[RAV TUX]

their products are average, but I hate the company.Again I agree, since I can now hold a non-neutral controversial opinion...the company is the worse.

[JLB]

Anything but an iPod (iRiver kicks an iPod's butt)
Love OSX
I Like their computer hardware since the switch to Intel cpus
The rest of their hardware is so-so
Not real enthused about the company.

[izanbardprince]

Anything but an iPod (iRiver kicks an iPod's butt)
Love OSX
I Like their computer hardware since the switch to Intel cpus
The rest of their hardware is so-so
Not real enthused about the company.

Can't say I like OS X.

OS X is more of the whole DRM everywhere, Treacherous Computing crap.

Ubuntu would be my favorite OS if it wasn't for a few nagging issues with hardware, I hear Feisty Fawn is better with wireless chipsets, I'll probably try it out, but til it can use my laptop's wireless chipset, I'm stuck on Windows.

[Jellicletrb]

Now why didn't you guys have this thread BEFORE I bought the Mini. :(

It does make a cute little edgy computer though :lolflag: OS X and I just couldn't mesh.

[JLB]

Can't say I like OS X.

OS X is more of the whole DRM everywhere, Treacherous Computing crap.

Ubuntu would be my favorite OS if it wasn't for a few nagging issues with hardware, I hear Feisty Fawn is better with wireless chipsets, I'll probably try it out, but til it can use my laptop's wireless chipset, I'm stuck on Windows.

I should have qualified my OSX statement, Don't know why I didn't.... Everybody I turned on to OSX from Windows doesn't bug me anymore for free computer advice :)

[Xenogis]

I give apple more respect than microsoft... but hate them more and more. Recently their products have been getting shittier and not as good. The thing that pisses me off the most is that i killed my old ipod by getting water in it, and when I got a new video I tried playing games while listening to music, but it didn't work! It froze up and started skipping! Despite that, I am planning on replacing my broken (to some extent) laptop with a macbook which will hopefully triple boot OSX, Linux, and Vista

[meheheh]

I love Apple. I love OS X. I love my iPod.

Ok, I'm slightly fanboyish, but I do like Apple products. The hardware/software integration is just perfect.

[RAV TUX]

Anything but an iPod (iRiver kicks an iPod's butt)
Love OSX
I Like their computer hardware since the switch to Intel cpus
The rest of their hardware is so-so
Not real enthused about the company.

Can't say I like OS X.

OS X is more of the whole DRM everywhere, Treacherous Computing crap.

Ubuntu would be my favorite OS if it wasn't for a few nagging issues with hardware, I hear Feisty Fawn is better with wireless chipsets, I'll probably try it out, but til it can use my laptop's wireless chipset, I'm stuck on Windows.

Now why didn't you guys have this thread BEFORE I bought the Mini. :(

It does make a cute little edgy computer though :lolflag: OS X and I just couldn't mesh.

I should have qualified my OSX statement, Don't know why I didn't.... Everybody I turned on to OSX from Windows doesn't bug me anymore for free computer advice :)

I love Apple. I love OS X. I love my iPod.

Ok, I'm slightly fanboyish, but I do like Apple products. The hardware/software integration is just perfect.

OS X is what I like least about Apple, OS X is a completely unreliable and restraining OS...I would choose XP over OS X

currently The Top OS's that exist are:

Wolvix (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,5.0.html)
Sabayon (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html)
NepaLinux (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,12.0.html)
rPath (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html)
Aquamorph (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,15.0.html)
ZenWalk (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,25.0.html)

OS X illustrates complete lack of freedom and hypocrisy, especially with Apples' adamant exploitation of slave-like female labor in China.

Apple is pure evil!!

If you have a conscience do NOT buy Apple products!

[kahrytan]

I believe Apple is the better of the two evils (Microsoft and Apple). My first internet pc was an Apple (Performa 6400). And I still have it.

My love for Apple is mostly because of Steve Jobs. Both of us share a common past. As with the late Dave Thomas.

[Durito]

I appreciate Apple's design sensibilities, and the tight hardware/software integration. If I couldn't run Linux, I might use an Apple--these days anyway. When I was using DOS/3.1 it was another story. Mostly because I could get at the innards when something went wrong--unlike with Apple machines, where just opening it up invalidates the warranty. My problem with Apple these days is a.) while their products do more or less exactly what they're designed to do, and do it well, if you want to do something they weren't designed to do you're SOL, and b.) DRM makes me cranky. It's my media content, man, so let me do what I want with it. The only Apple product I own is an older Shuffle I got for running. And I use a Python script to generate the track database from MP3s copied to it in my file manager instead of iTunes.

My favourite OS comparison book is still Neal Stephenson's In the Beginning...was the Command Line. I think it's mostly a collection of essays he wrote for Wired.

[Polygon]

OS X is what I like least about Apple, OS X is a completely unreliable and restraining OS...I would choose XP over OS X

currently The Top OS's that exist are:

Wolvix (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,5.0.html)
Sabayon (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html)
NepaLinux (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,12.0.html)
rPath (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html)
Aquamorph (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,15.0.html)
ZenWalk (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,25.0.html)

OS X illustrates complete lack of freedom and hypocrisy, especially with Apples' adamant exploitation of slave-like female labor in China.

Apple is pure evil!!

If you have a conscience do NOT buy Apple products!

maybe you should link to the websites of those distros (they are linux distros... right?) cause i have never heard of any of them besides sabayon where my wireless doesnt work which usually is an indication if i will attempt to use that distro =P

and i have to disagree on unreliable and restraining, it is not any more restraining then any other closed source OS (aka windows xp)... and its 100X more reliable then windows xp (because of the tight hardware + software intregration... i have yet to have a mac os x computer crash on me and i use one every day at school and have two at home)

and apples use of "slave labor".. how does that effect the outcome of their operating system? Sure its wrong, but honestly i think instead of boycotting apple, why not make the chinese goverment finally crack down on this kind of stuff? Apple is by far not the only company that uses cheap labor in china.


My opinion on apple: they are ok... besides the slave labor thing. Their computers really are stable, no matter what people say, because they have the luxury of only having their OS run on their hardware, so the drivers are rock solid. Like i said before, there is nothing really more restraining about mac os x then there is with any other closed source operating system...

and for the ipod, it annoys me that they refused to support .OGG and .FLAC, when they could easily do it since they are both open source, so therefore i dont buy ipods.

and i also kinda like apple more because steve jobs is also the CEO of pixar (where he gets payed like 1 dollar a day... lol), which has made and still does make amazing animated movies.

[3rdalbum]

It's amazing how many people say "I never had a crash on Mac OS X". Have those guys been using their computers, or just looking at them? :-P

I remember my university days when the network would go down and all the G4s in the room would immediately crash. In an exam situation, I once had to be moved between 3 different computers because they kept crashing; luckily I really knew my stuff and I still passed the exam.

[the.dark.lord]

OS X is what I like least about Apple, OS X is a completely unreliable and restraining OS...I would choose XP over OS X


OS X illustrates complete lack of freedom and hypocrisy, especially with Apples' adamant exploitation of slave-like female labor in China.

Apple is pure evil!!

If you have a conscience do NOT buy Apple products!

Cheers, Tux. Couldn't have said it better. Apple is MUCH MORE worse than Microsoft. OS X is complete DRM infested crap -all you cool MS haters, yeah, it's much more worse than Vista-. I've been trying to install Ubuntu on this brand new iMac i brought i three months ago when I listened to those -expletive- mac fanboys who preach their mantra without knowing a damn about what they're talking about. I've haven't been able to install pure Ubuntu -yet. The hardware is designed to run *only* OS X.

Couldn't you guys have had this thread three months ago :( .

[fuscia]

i thought the 12inch powerbook was a great little machine and would have loved to have one. and no one can make the gap between a 99 watt lightbulb and a 100 watt lightbulb seem so wide, but the 'creep' factor of apple is way too huge for me to ever buy anything from them. i hate the little creep in their ads, the beedy little eyes of their leader make my flesh crawl and a visit to their stores reminds me of that old show 'the prisoner' (imagine the terror you'd feel being chased across a beach by a giant ipod).

[samjh]

I like Apple's technical designs, especially the work Apple had done to develop human-computer interfaces during its early era.

I don't like Apple's completely proprietary designs and business strategy. It's far worse than Microsoft. It is also one of the reasons why Apple computers lost the PC market to IBM clones.

[Jellicletrb]

It's amazing how many people say "I never had a crash on Mac OS X". Have those guys been using their computers, or just looking at them? :-P

I remember my university days when the network would go down and all the G4s in the room would immediately crash. In an exam situation, I once had to be moved between 3 different computers because they kept crashing; luckily I really knew my stuff and I still passed the exam.

The mini that I'm using right now (running Ubuntu 6.10 only now), wouldn't crash, per se, when it was running OS X, but it was constantly "losing" the keyboard. Every couple of hours I'd have to restart it to get my keyboard back. One of the main reasons that I ditched OS X.

[Bloodfen Razormaw]

Apple reminds me a lot of Volkswagon, with their ads for "superior German engineering" when in reality they are constantly rated as producing cars with some of the worst build quality in the world. The best Apple fanboy moment I've had was when one said it takes "mere" months to learn to use OS X and acted like the fact that it takes a significant portion of your life to be able to use it makes it usable (in contrast, usability testing shows that right off the bat users find KDE more usable than Windows). But it could just be that it takes a day to learn to use each look and feel in OS X, and when you have a hundred of them, they add up.

And their hardware is abysmally low quality. They contract out work to the lowest bidder, get back their horrid results, then charge as if they had to pay a buttload for premium quality. The low quality of Macbooks is a pretty good example of that. They are significantly more expensive than competing models yet are less powerful, heavier, and get pathetic battery life, even after Apple switched to Acer for manufacturing. And even with their constant problems people are dumb enough to still buy them!

It's amazing how many people say "I never had a crash on Mac OS X". Have those guys been using their computers, or just looking at them?
I've used OS X extensively, and never for more than two hours without it locking up. Or maybe it was just actually doing work for 10 hours. Because if you consider OS X's insanely bad performance, that is possible. That's what happens when you try to update your system to a FreeBSD 5 base by just bolting it on as a server to a decrepit, dead kernel from 15 years ago. You see, that doesn't count as a crash though, because OS X pretended to still be functional, instead of reporting a helpful error to the user. ;)

[izanbardprince]

OS X is what I like least about Apple, OS X is a completely unreliable and restraining OS...I would choose XP over OS X

currently The Top OS's that exist are:

Wolvix (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,5.0.html)
Sabayon (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html)
NepaLinux (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,12.0.html)
rPath (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,4.0.html)
Aquamorph (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,15.0.html)
ZenWalk (http://cafelinux.org/forum/index.php/board,25.0.html)

OS X illustrates complete lack of freedom and hypocrisy, especially with Apples' adamant exploitation of slave-like female labor in China.

Apple is pure evil!!

If you have a conscience do NOT buy Apple products!

I hate to tell you this buddy, but almost all our jobs have gone to China where they exploit women and children to death or damn near it.

You used to have the choice to buy American, now you really just don't, it's sad yes, our government has sold us out, they've entered us into an illegal war that has us hemmoraging cash and has our brave men and women in uniform (which it is not their fault and I do respect them) dying right and left, and the reason a lot of people have to join the military is because it's either do that or flip burgers because thats the only civilian job left really, college just gets more and more expensive every year and the federal aide keeps getting stolen to fund the Debacle in Iraq and projects like the Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska, and subsidies to big corporations like Wal-Mart who don't need them, to "create jobs".

Our whole country is ran by a bunch of hypocritical douchebags who need to be taken out into the street and shot in the head.

Anyway, off my soapbox....

[beefcurry]

<snip>

I dislike Apple, bad customer support (for me). All the Mac users Ive met act as if Macs are superior (also personal opinion and only a generalization from my view) and Apples marketing tactics are no where near ethical. Not to mention Green Peace listed it as one of the most un-environmentally friendly tech companies.

[ComplexNumber]

i think that apple makes some really really nice hardware. probably the best in terms of design IMO. the software is fairly nice too, but they are not innovative in terms of software at all. thats hardly surprising considering that apple are primarily a hardware company.

[Jellicletrb]

Our whole country is ran by a bunch of hypocritical douchebags who need to be taken out into the street and shot in the head.

But...then some poor minimum wage schmuck would have to wash the street. Have pity :lolflag:

[Polygon]

It's amazing how many people say "I never had a crash on Mac OS X". Have those guys been using their computers, or just looking at them? :-P

I remember my university days when the network would go down and all the G4s in the room would immediately crash. In an exam situation, I once had to be moved between 3 different computers because they kept crashing; luckily I really knew my stuff and I still passed the exam.

i have NEVER had a crash (as in kernel panic with the whole operating system crashing and having to restart the computer) with mac os x. and i reiterate again, i use it every day at school (our school uses mac os x computers) and there are two mac os x computers in our house.

[the.dark.lord]

The mini that I'm using right now (running Ubuntu 6.10 only now), wouldn't crash, per se, when it was running OS X, but it was constantly "losing" the keyboard. Every couple of hours I'd have to restart it to get my keyboard back. One of the main reasons that I ditched OS X.

Hey jellicletrb, I'd be greatful if you tell me how you run pure ubuntu on your mac. I ditched OS X a few days ago, and have been living since on live CD. I installed Ubuntu 6.06, and when I boot the comp

GRUB loading stage1.5

GRUB loading, please wait...

stays on forever. Any help greatly appriciated :).

[Mr. Picklesworth]

The folks at Apple are great at attention to detail when it comes to design. Stuff like the magnetic power cord on the Macbook, its sudden motion sensor and the proximity sensor on the iPhone are really simple but smart additions.
I learned to hate the OSX's setup program quite quickly as far as connecting to a wireless router. From the start, they were trying to sell us Airport routers. The setup program's wireless configurator would only connect to an airport router. For my normal wireless router that is far more popular than an Airport router, it would list the essid, but it would not give me a proper setup wizard. It instead just asked for a "Password", which I assumed to be my WEP key. Well, it didn't work and it was a big waste of time. What's worse? It didn't tell me why it didn't work; it just told me "It didn't work." I eventually skipped it and set it up within OSX, which was equally not fun. In the system utilities I found numerous Airport router configurators, but it eventually turned out that my own wireless router, because it is not an airport router, does not go in that spot. It worked in the end, though. (Strangely, connecting with the macbook almost always slaughters the router forcing it to be reset, but I think that's more the router's fault).
Now, try dropping that thing about 2 feet onto a carpet. *Boom* hinge is off center.

Luckily, that MacBook which I quickly grew to hate was not mine. I so far own no Apple products. Some fool downloaded Quicktime (and thus bloody iTunes and, of course, APPLE UPDATER) on the Windows computer. I promptly deleted all of it and replaced them with Quicktime Alternative. After that, I could again operate my web browser without it crashing every 5 minutes. (Does Apple even test their web site in Windows? Windows Quicktime has a nasty habit of crashing Firefox and sometimes even Internet Explorer completely out of the blue, and their web site is packed with that darn thing).
Then there's the whole Quicktime Pro thing. Anyone who says Apple software "Just works" obviously has not tried: Viewing a Quicktime video in full screen, saving a browser-embedded Quicktime video, or figuring out why certain useful menu options are greyed out. Quicktime Alternative "just works;" Quicktime, however, does not. I for one refuse to pay any kind of money for a media player which is The Only Choice to play Apple's media format. How about I just don't watch Quicktime videos, thus miss all that juicy content on Apple's web site which tries so hard to sell me Apple products? If Adobe could charge money for the Flash Player, I bet they could. The thing is they are smart enough to realize: They can't.
If you want a media format to catch on, you need to have assurance that the format can have a wide audience; that everybody can play that format. Windows Media Player, for example, provides its users with the ability to play WMV files as well as a good reason to use it: Its library features kick iTunes' ***. Quicktime? It gives us a noisy updater, an ugly interface that does not blend in and an inability to perform any "professional" operations on any file it insists to play.

People like iTunes because it makes their iPod work. What they do not realize is that every good MP3 player (Creative Zen, for example, though huge and ugly and with a bad screen) is plug & play: Put it in your computer, file manager opens, drag and drop your files, and it will play them without complaint. No software installation at all. (Maybe a driver).

My DS with homebrew equipment costs less than an iPod and works as well as an iPod at media playing. It plays more formats and it does cross-fading, too. (Without the help of iTunes).

iPhone is bloody expensive, patent-thirsty ("And BOY did we patent it! [All 100 of them]" -Steve Jobs at his Macworld keynote speech), and just not sensible. I, for one, am going to hold out for the far more useful OpenMoko project to roll out a PDA-centric device. I can tell you right now that it will be: More open, less expensive, more capable within a month of its release, and like everything heavily inspired by any useful innovation of the iPhone (thus defeating the purpose of the iPhone).
If the iPhone wants my attention, Apple needs to open up a little.

[GuitarHero]

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

Sums up my thoughts.

1. The "Everything just works" mantra is a marketing scheme. It isn't meant to literally say nothing will ever go wrong on a mac ever. The problems listed on that page are small ones with easy fixes.

2. This argument is just ignorant. Of course mac ads use attractive, young, people. What marketing moron would have a bunch of nerdy unattractive people(presumably like the one who wrote that article) representing their product? It's a basic marketing fundamental to associate your product with cool, hip things. And their marketing campaign is working, proven by the increasing popularity of apple products.

It also criticizes apples community. "Part of the Mac community? It's a computer, not a social movement, ***hole!" Well maybe no one explained to you that this is a linux community, and you are a part of it. Why shouldn't there be a mac community as well?

And then he criticizes iTunes. He says it sucks without even being able to install it. Pretty much everyone I know has installed iTunes successfully if only to try it. I don't know how this idiot failed to do so, but he feels justified complaining about iTunes without even using it first.


I like apple because for the most part their products "just work". They have an attractive design, and usability. I don't know how all of you who in this thread said OSX crashes all the time got it to crash. I use OSX everyday at school and have never had it crash once. OSX has compatibility with graphic and sound programs that linux doesn't. The linux counterparts are awful in comparison. Audacity, the gimp, and ardour are essentially useless to me. I don't care if it is open source or not. Not everything needs to be open source if you ask me. We don't ask car manufacturers to reveal their blueprints, why would we demand open source software from developers? Other industries don't have this demand put on them. I am buying a computer to get things done, not support a software movement.

[Polygon]

you can install quicktime standalone,.... you just have to find the link since apple is a jerk and hides the link

EDIT: they dont even hide the link anymore! just go to quicktime.com.... go to downloads and then select windows xp and there it is, quicktime with itunes and just quicktime.

[ajifans]

I used to have a Mac, and I thought it was great. Compared to Windows I had almost completely hassle free computing. No viruses, no spyware, no crashes. It showed me that life without MS was possible.

My house got burgled and my Mac was stolen so I decided to give Linux a go and haven't looked back since enjoying the freedom that it offers.

However for someone completely clueless on computers I wouldn't hesitate to recommend they get a Mac. I fix my girlfriend's, her sister's and her mom's computers, and since her mom got a mac I haven't had to help her at all. In the same period both my girlfriend's and her sister's Window installations have been completely destroyed by a mixture of user incompetence and malware.

[Jellicletrb]

Hey jellicletrb, I'd be greatful if you tell me how you run pure ubuntu on your mac. I ditched OS X a few days ago, and have been living since on live CD. I installed Ubuntu 6.06, and when I boot the comp

GRUB loading stage1.5

GRUB loading, please wait...

stays on forever. Any help greatly appriciated :).

Uh, well....I don't know.

But one thing that I will point out. When I first tried to install, I wanted to install 6.06 because of the long term support. And, it acted exactly the same way that yours does. It would try to load GRUB, and then just stop. I thought that it might have just been a flaw in my CD, it's getting pretty old, and I had downloaded 6.10 a few weeks ago. When I installed Edgy and let it reformat the drive to start fresh, it was smooth sailing from then on. I'm sorry that I didn't look any further into it, but I was sure that it was a CD issue.:(

[aysiu]

I've merged this with the other thread on the same topic.

[billdotson]

I have never used any Apple products really except quicktime (I prefer quicktime to Windows Media player, bu since WMP11 came out WMP is pretty good) I do not know how well they make their products it is jsut that their marketing tactics annoy me and so I don't buy any of their products.

[Frak]

personally, I think no company wants its consumers to have every advantage; all that companies want is to make the most profit possible, to the detriment of the consumers.

While apple fanboyism is just as ugly as windows fanboyism (or even linux fanboyism), apple does create pretty sleek products, the best example of which is the iPhone (that looks awesome, even though its expensive, for what it has it is fairly priced)
Only when you can turn a product for no charge, to have the community help on your creation, can both the consumer and advertiser hold an advantage.

[Chrisj303]

The great thing about Mac's is that it is no longer a matter of this OS or that OS. I tripleboot OSX/UBUNTU/XP, that way i can run whatever OS suits the situation the best (my XP partion dosen't get much of a look in though, it has to be said!)

OSX just works, regardless of user experiance and ability. I wouldn't, and don't hesitate to recommend OSX to ANYBODY. I certainly couldn't say the same about Linux. Both OS' have their own place.

Cheers,
chrisj303

[Chrisj303]

I like apple because for the most part their products "just work". They have an attractive design, and usability. I don't know how all of you who in this thread said OSX crashes all the time got it to crash. I use OSX everyday at school and have never had it crash once. OSX has compatibility with graphic and sound programs that linux doesn't. The linux counterparts are awful in comparison. Audacity, the gimp, and ardour are essentially useless to me. I don't care if it is open source or not. Not everything needs to be open source if you ask me. We don't ask car manufacturers to reveal their blueprints, why would we demand open source software from developers? Other industries don't have this demand put on them. I am buying a computer to get things done, not support a software movement.

My thoughts exactly, well put..

chrisj303

[RAV TUX]

maybe you should link to the websites of those distros (they are linux distros... right?) cause i have never heard of any of them besides sabayon where my wireless doesnt work which usually is an indication if i will attempt to use that distro =P

and apples use of "slave labor".. how does that effect the outcome of their operating system? Sure its wrong, but honestly i think instead of boycotting apple, why not make the chinese goverment finally crack down on this kind of stuff? Apple is by far not the only company that uses cheap labor in china.

My opinion on apple: they are ok... besides the slave labor thing.

and for the ipod, it annoys me that they refused to support .OGG and .FLAC, when they could easily do it since they are both open source, so therefore i dont buy ipods.

All the distros listed are linked...indirectly to the CafeLinux Forum where I have spotlighted each one of them....

of those rPath is the most polished and professional...I would highly suggest give rPath a try especially if you like Gnome....rPath is perhaps the best OS that utilizes Gnome

Cheers, Tux. Couldn't have said it better. Apple is MUCH MORE worse than Microsoft. OS X is complete DRM infested crap -all you cool MS haters, yeah, it's much more worse than Vista-. I've been trying to install Ubuntu on this brand new iMac i brought i three months ago when I listened to those -expletive- mac fanboys who preach their mantra without knowing a damn about what they're talking about. I've haven't been able to install pure Ubuntu -yet. The hardware is designed to run *only* OS X.

Couldn't you guys have had this thread three months ago :( .

I am sorry to hear of your mis-fortune, but we learn by our mistakes, or in the best case scenario by observing others

i thought the 12inch powerbook was a great little machine and would have loved to have one. and no one can make the gap between a 99 watt lightbulb and a 100 watt lightbulb seem so wide, but the 'creep' factor of apple is way too huge for me to ever buy anything from them. i hate the little creep in their ads, the beedy little eyes of their leader make my flesh crawl and a visit to their stores reminds me of that old show 'the prisoner' (imagine the terror you'd feel being chased across a beach by a giant ipod).

They are a bit creepy



I don't like Apple's completely proprietary designs and business strategy. It's far worse than Microsoft. It is also one of the reasons why Apple computers lost the PC market to IBM clones.

agreed

The mini that I'm using right now (running Ubuntu 6.10 only now), wouldn't crash, per se, when it was running OS X, but it was constantly "losing" the keyboard. Every couple of hours I'd have to restart it to get my keyboard back. One of the main reasons that I ditched OS X.

again I am sorry you had such a bad experience

Apple reminds me a lot of Volkswagon, with their ads for "superior German engineering" when in reality they are constantly rated as producing cars with some of the worst build quality in the world. The best Apple fanboy moment I've had was when one said it takes "mere" months to learn to use OS X and acted like the fact that it takes a significant portion of your life to be able to use it makes it usable (in contrast, usability testing shows that right off the bat users find KDE more usable than Windows). But it could just be that it takes a day to learn to use each look and feel in OS X, and when you have a hundred of them, they add up.

And their hardware is abysmally low quality. They contract out work to the lowest bidder, get back their horrid results, then charge as if they had to pay a buttload for premium quality. The low quality of Macbooks is a pretty good example of that. They are significantly more expensive than competing models yet are less powerful, heavier, and get pathetic battery life, even after Apple switched to Acer for manufacturing. And even with their constant problems people are dumb enough to still buy them!


I've used OS X extensively, and never for more than two hours without it locking up. Or maybe it was just actually doing work for 10 hours. Because if you consider OS X's insanely bad performance, that is possible. That's what happens when you try to update your system to a FreeBSD 5 base by just bolting it on as a server to a decrepit, dead kernel from 15 years ago. You see, that doesn't count as a crash though, because OS X pretended to still be functional, instead of reporting a helpful error to the user. ;)

I am glad to see that there are people smart enough to see through Apples bunny slippers

I hate to tell you this buddy, but almost all our jobs have gone to China where they exploit women and children to death or damn near it.

You used to have the choice to buy American, now you really just don't, it's sad yes, our government has sold us out, they've entered us into an illegal war that has us hemmoraging cash and has our brave men and women in uniform (which it is not their fault and I do respect them) dying right and left, and the reason a lot of people have to join the military is because it's either do that or flip burgers because thats the only civilian job left really, college just gets more and more expensive every year and the federal aide keeps getting stolen to fund the Debacle in Iraq and projects like the Bridge to Nowhere in Alaska, and subsidies to big corporations like Wal-Mart who don't need them, to "create jobs".

Our whole country is ran by a bunch of hypocritical douchebags who need to be taken out into the street and shot in the head.

Anyway, off my soapbox....

This is why I buy Fujitsu....made in Japan

<snip>

I dislike Apple, bad customer support (for me). All the Mac users Ive met act as if Macs are superior (also personal opinion and only a generalization from my view) and Apples marketing tactics are no where near ethical. Not to mention Green Peace listed it as one of the most un-environmentally friendly tech companies.

I didn't know about the Green Peace listing....good to know and another reason NOT to use Apple

But...then some poor minimum wage schmuck would have to wash the street. Have pity

unfortunately here in the USA we are in the process of a massive deportation of our below minimum wage immigrant work forces, now factories are closing and they are plowing the fields under because there is no one to pick the vegetables.....not very smart.

The folks at Apple are great at attention to detail when it comes to design. Stuff like the magnetic power cord on the Macbook, its sudden motion sensor and the proximity sensor on the iPhone are really simple but smart additions.
I learned to hate the OSX's setup program quite quickly as far as connecting to a wireless router. From the start, they were trying to sell us Airport routers. The setup program's wireless configurator would only connect to an airport router. For my normal wireless router that is far more popular than an Airport router, it would list the essid, but it would not give me a proper setup wizard. It instead just asked for a "Password", which I assumed to be my WEP key. Well, it didn't work and it was a big waste of time. What's worse? It didn't tell me why it didn't work; it just told me "It didn't work." I eventually skipped it and set it up within OSX, which was equally not fun. In the system utilities I found numerous Airport router configurators, but it eventually turned out that my own wireless router, because it is not an airport router, does not go in that spot. It worked in the end, though. (Strangely, connecting with the macbook almost always slaughters the router forcing it to be reset, but I think that's more the router's fault).
Now, try dropping that thing about 2 feet onto a carpet. *Boom* hinge is off center.

Luckily, that MacBook which I quickly grew to hate was not mine. I so far own no Apple products. Some fool downloaded Quicktime (and thus bloody iTunes and, of course, APPLE UPDATER) on the Windows computer. I promptly deleted all of it and replaced them with Quicktime Alternative. After that, I could again operate my web browser without it crashing every 5 minutes. (Does Apple even test their web site in Windows? Windows Quicktime has a nasty habit of crashing Firefox and sometimes even Internet Explorer completely out of the blue, and their web site is packed with that darn thing).
Then there's the whole Quicktime Pro thing. Anyone who says Apple software "Just works" obviously has not tried: Viewing a Quicktime video in full screen, saving a browser-embedded Quicktime video, or figuring out why certain useful menu options are greyed out. Quicktime Alternative "just works;" Quicktime, however, does not. I for one refuse to pay any kind of money for a media player which is The Only Choice to play Apple's media format. How about I just don't watch Quicktime videos, thus miss all that juicy content on Apple's web site which tries so hard to sell me Apple products? If Adobe could charge money for the Flash Player, I bet they could. The thing is they are smart enough to realize: They can't.
If you want a media format to catch on, you need to have assurance that the format can have a wide audience; that everybody can play that format. Windows Media Player, for example, provides its users with the ability to play WMV files as well as a good reason to use it: Its library features kick iTunes' ***. Quicktime? It gives us a noisy updater, an ugly interface that does not blend in and an inability to perform any "professional" operations on any file it insists to play.

People like iTunes because it makes their iPod work. What they do not realize is that every good MP3 player (Creative Zen, for example, though huge and ugly and with a bad screen) is plug & play: Put it in your computer, file manager opens, drag and drop your files, and it will play them without complaint. No software installation at all. (Maybe a driver).

My DS with homebrew equipment costs less than an iPod and works as well as an iPod at media playing. It plays more formats and it does cross-fading, too. (Without the help of iTunes).

iPhone is bloody expensive, patent-thirsty ("And BOY did we patent it! [All 100 of them]" -Steve Jobs at his Macworld keynote speech), and just not sensible. I, for one, am going to hold out for the far more useful OpenMoko project to roll out a PDA-centric device. I can tell you right now that it will be: More open, less expensive, more capable within a month of its release, and like everything heavily inspired by any useful innovation of the iPhone (thus defeating the purpose of the iPhone).
If the iPhone wants my attention, Apple needs to open up a little.

interesting insight

I have never used any Apple products really except quicktime (I prefer quicktime to Windows Media player, bu since WMP11 came out WMP is pretty good) I do not know how well they make their products it is jsut that their marketing tactics annoy me and so I don't buy any of their products.

their marketing tactics are reflective of the company overall

[TheWizzard]

You don't get it, do you?

I got to the point that you are either stupid or too ******* blind, because you'll hate Apple whatever happens in your life... So good luck and bye...

no, i don't hate apple. i've been using it since the apple ii and i still have a notebook with os 8 on it (although the last time i used that one is 3 years ago). actually, i think apple used to be superior. however, since the diminishing differences on hardware and with the introduction of "easy" linux distributions like ubuntu, i can't see the why i should buy another apple.
the powerbook with reasonanble pricing is not available in my country. it's over €2700 while i can get the equivalent for less than €1100.
just stating that apple is more expensive than it should be doesn't make one an apple 'hater'. i don't hate apple, i just think it's extremely overpriced.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Apple still is innovative, but innovation alone is not enough because innovations - no matter how fresh - are quickly duplicated and surpassed by competitors.
Look at the iPhone, for instance. It is very innovative! The problem is that it is expensive. 2 years from now, there will be dozens of devices using multitouch and even more making good use of proximity sensors and tilt sensors. Apple will certainly be able to say "iPhone did it first!" but that's about all they'll be able to say; other devices will also do it and at the same time be much more open / extensible about it as well as less expensive.
The Linksys routers used to be considered great because they were cheap and open. Not because they were "good." (And just for the record: No longer does Linksys make good routers. They were severely crippled with Hardware Version 5 to the point that the other 2 ports and antenna may as well be painted on. Support said I was "using mine too much" with a mere 2 wired and 1 wireless connection).

[Shmifty]

While I do own an iPod I pretty much despise Apple. Sure they are unix based, but their marketing strategies, hardware and smug attitude from 96% of "progressive" mac people make it very unappealing. On a side note, if the mac people are so "progressive" why don't they just use linux instead of that trashy OSX?

[Demio]

I use a Mac every day for many hours and I had one kernel panic in years and it was because I was messing around hehe.

Mac OS X is both stable and very intuitive, making it a great OS to do work in ;)

[Alfa989]

While I do own an iPod I pretty much despise Apple. Sure they are unix based, but their marketing strategies, hardware and smug attitude from 96% of "progressive" mac people make it very unappealing. On a side note, if the mac people are so "progressive" why don't they just use linux instead of that trashy OSX?

Maybe because Linux is still useless as an OS for normal people??

[Chrisj303]

The thing is, is that everybody is an individual and has different likes/dislikes. There will always be people that prefer one OS over another. And some people will always hate a particular OS, regardless of what happens.
This 'debate' will go on and on and on, there is no right answer - use whatever OS you want.

OSX is a strong OS - just like ubuntu, they both have their place.

[Alfa989]

The thing is, is that everybody is an individual and has different likes/dislikes. There will always be people that prefer one OS over another. And some people will always hate a particular OS, regardless of what happens.
This 'debate' will go on and on and on, there is no right answer - use whatever OS you want.

OSX is a strong OS - just like ubuntu, they both have their place.

Exactly...

[deltapsi]

This argument is pointless to start. I'm a long time mac user and Certified Apple Technician, in the past most of my experiences with linux/unix distributions have been largely the same, if I wanted to take 300 hours to edit .conf files to get all of my hardware to work, i would probably have used Linux long ago, however, since I can name better things to do, and my ADHD kicked in, I never bothered with it before. I was recently introduced to Ubuntu and am using it to run MythTV on a PC box, and it is Linux that finally works for my needs. I doubt anyone would argue that Linux/Unix gives the user nearly unlimited control. With that said, why would anyone argue against OS X? So the graphical user interface isn't open source...neither is Windows XP. At least the core is the result of a combination of open source components (NeXTSTEP, BSD). It is simply as easy to see Steve Jobs as some form of "Cult Leader", but I am sure the same can be said of Linus Torvalds or Bill Gates. All have their devoted followers. Its almost as if computing is a religion now. I am not here to say Apple is right or wrong, but just that we are all practically the same. Each OS has its ups and downs. For those that don't like the way OS X looks, use a different OS. And those looking just to fire weapons from a glass fortress, old Linux distributions looked equally as ugly as Mac OS 8.

[izanbardprince]

http://www.epinions.com/content_5089894532
--------------------

Nothing infuriates me more than these television commercials, for one, they refer to "PC" as boring, old, slow, and simple, thereby making PC's mascot a balding, slightly overweight, middle aged man, in a suit and tie, with no sense of humor, thereby implying that everyone that uses a PC is some sort of impotent stereotypical banker or middle manager.

Then of course the Mac guy comes out, wearing the latest fashions, physically fit, pretty attractive, and this guy is here to tell us that the Mac is stylish, fun, well-built, and trouble-free.

Being on Linux, I had to go to Youtube, to watch the flash versions of the Mac ads, because even though Totem-Mozilla supports streaming Sorenson (Quicktime) video, the Apple website told me I needed Quicktime to view their ads, fascists.

"We're sorry, you have to be using Windows to see our ads on why you'll love a Mac, you further have to infect Windows with our adware media player, after a 30 megabyte download, to see our ad on Windows coming with too many bloated, useless programs."

What is the problem with these monikers?

Well, first of all a Mac...IS...a PC, it runs the same type of processor, the same kind of hard disk, RAM, video accelerator, you name it, you can buy functional equivalent hardware and build a PC out of it, because all a Mac boils down to is a pile of off-the-shelf commodity components, the major difference between a Mac and a PC at a hardware level is that Apple puts it together for you, and charges an outrageous retail mark up, and don't give me the "LOL! It has a nice case!!!111", because you can buy some really awesome looking PC cases as well, the Mac is all marketing hype, and when it comes down to it, all flash and no substance.

And if I have a problem with a hardware device on a Mac, I can't just go down the block to the computer shop, or get a no-questions-asked return at Newegg, because the nearest Apple Store is 100 miles from here.

When you buy an Apple Macintosh PC, the thing that differentiates it from a generic PC with a really nice case, is that it comes with Mac OS X, which there is no technical reason couldn't run on any PC, Apple worked HARD to make certain that it couldn't run on a standard PC, because Mac OS X is what people buy the overpriced hardware bundles for.

People say "But Mac OS X just works, and it's stable, and you can plug in a USB gadget and just know that it will be detected! And....and!!!!"

First of all, the Just Works deal is baloney, here are hundreds of satisfied Apple customers with their Macs, just working:

http://www.macfixitforums.com/

A few choice gems:

"OS disc not recognized" (Check the Md5 sum against the source where you got the disc image, oh wait, that's Linux, my bad.)
"All Kinds of Problems, -600 error" (This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down, the police have been dispatched, and there is nowhere to run.)
"Weird files appearing" (Sounds like the Shadow Copy program is broken and running amok, I suggest borrowing the shotgun from Doom Guy, then rezzing yourself into the system to stop Master Control Program, before it's too late.)
"10.4.10 upgrade problems" (But, I just popped the CD in, like in the commercial, and....)
"Black rectangle box crash" (Wow, a sentence composed entirely of adverbs, with no noun being modified, I'm impressed!)
"Overall performance seriously slow" (Happy for you!)
"Dock keeps crashing!" (Oh no, Mr. Bill!)
"Safari keeps freezing and quitting." (It's called a SegFault, jackass! Try checking your dependencies, yes OS X has shared libraries, just like DLL Hell on Windows)
"OS X 10.4 spotlight freeze on bootup"
"Can't reset password -- can command line help?" (su enter root password enter passwd user name new password, badaboom, yeah, the command line can help, Mister "I Broke The Screen", oh wait, Mac OS disables root)
"Not getting a warm and fuzzy" (Sorry, I don't think there's a utility in Mac OS that can get you laid, although I believe that feature is scheduled for Leopard, from what I hear.)
"How can I open a Windows data CD on my Mac?" (It's called making sure your burning program is ISO 9001 compliant, then it doesn't matter what OS you mount the disc on, murdering anyone that sends you BIN/CUE MDF/MDS, and especially NRG images usually helps a lot with this problem.)

It was about this time, I had to remind myself this was a Mac troubleshooting forum, because those problems sound suspiciously like the screams of Windows users.

Then to make matters worse, Apple releases an official "10.4.10" system update, that causes program installers to fail, because they only see the first digit of the third revision number and think you have Mac OS X 10.4.1.

While we're talking about upgrades, Apple dings you for point releases, at $100 a pop, so if you'd been using Mac OS X from 2001-2007, you would not have only paid for the initial license that came with the system, but $400 to keep the OS current (and there's about to be an OS X 10.5 too), making Windows licenses look positively cheap in comparison, Linux is free of charge, nuff said.

If you decide you'd rather not go along with the upgrade extortion, be prepared to not have any security patches, of course not that anyone targets Mac OS X much, just because it's so obscure.

As far as detecting devices, I've had absolutely no trouble getting hardware to interface with Windows, it's just a simple matter of installing a driver, which usually comes on the CD, with the product you purchased, now show me how I'm supposed to install the gadget on a Mac when OS X has no driver for it, the manufacturer doesn't support the Mac, and by default, I don't have any compiling tools to write my own driver for a device that isn't supported and compile it (though I'm sure I lost 100% of Mac users and at least 50% of the Windows ones at the word "compiling")...no?

Take my XBOX 360 Controller for Windows, it's not supposed to work on anything but Windows (obviously), but it works on Linux because I found the C source code for "Xpad360", modified it to add support for Ubuntu Linux 64-bit, and ran a make on it, tell me how I compile it and load it as a kernel module when the kernel of OS X itself is not available as source, and is rather poorly documented, cause I'd sure like to know.

Moving away from hardware, what does OS X do that makes it stand out from Windows? Well surely since it's so modern and chic and all that, it has some wicked cool video games, exclusives at that!

Nope. Mac users are stuck with hand me downs that were on the PC several years ago, thats if anyone even bothers to write and support a Mac version, and since there is no economy of scale at work (since Mac OS X's usage share is marginal), you get to pay the price PC users did, when it was brand new.

And even if you're able to track down a Mac version of an older title (such as American McGee's Alice, Quake 3, Heavy Metal FAKK, etc), there's no guarantee it will run on a modern Mac, this is because Mac OS X is completely unrelated to Mac Classic (OS 9 and earlier), on the old PowerPC Mac OS X this wasn't a problem as much, because that version of OS X had a full emulator for Mac Classic, but if you have an Intel Mac, there is no way to run games (or any program for that matter) built for both Mac Classic.

Even semi-recent titles like Halo: Combat Evolved, Quake 4, and Doom 3 won't work on an Intel Mac very well, because it has to emulate a PowerPC processor for them.

Your solution? You have to BUY a patch from the maker of the PPC Mac OS X program, so that you may run it natively on the Intel x86 processor. (what a joke!)

Your only gaming option that is guaranteed to work, and stay working is to go out, BUY a full copy of Microsoft Windows (which is the reason you all point at for hating "PC's" in the first place), and the Microsoft Windows (A.K.A. "PC") version of the game, and dedicate a significant chunk of your hard disk to it, and there is just no way for Mac apologists to skirt their way around the little fact that it took a copy of Microsoft Windows to get their Mac to reliably run video games.

You could run Cider, which is Cedega for the Mac OS, but now you've paid good money for a commercial operating system, so you can pay more money to play "some" Windows games through a hacky work-around, and even though there is a port of Wine that runs on Mac OS X, it's temperamental, at best.

On Linux, you have two options, Wine and Cedega, if you want to use Wine, it's free, knock yourself out, it's surprisingly compatible with a lot of "Windows" software, it does require a lot of configuration though, Cedega is a pretty GUI with point and drool support, where you can install your games and have Cedega shield you from most of the Wine ugliness, so you don't "have" to pay to run Windows games on Linux, but rather you can "choose" to take the easy path if you so desire. (And I can compile a Cedega work-alike using the code in their CVS source repository, and not pay them anything, if I really want to, so suck that down.)

What about the software comes with the computer?

The software that Windows comes with from the OEM is usually completely worthless, if you don't go through an OEM, and install Windows manually, it's bare-bones, you have to download or purchase software for pretty much EVERYTHING you want to do with the computer besides watching it hum and burn electricity (and with Windows Vista, eat all the RAM and thrash the swap file before you've even told it to do anything).

The situation is somewhat better with a Macintosh PC, Apple does include useful software, but they don't do it for free, the licensing costs for iWork, iLife, and iWhateverthehellelse, are hidden in the cost of the operating system and the computer, thereby essentially forcing you to buy them, even if you have no use for them.

If Microsoft shipped Windows with a full copy of Microsoft Office, built-in anti-virus, and so on, then they would be sued, but it's OK for Apple to do it, because they don't have a significant market share.

With modern Linux distributions, you have a full Office suite, multi-protocol instant messaging, built-in support for digital media editing/burning, and bolt-on support for most Windows applications (including many, that Windows won't even run anymore), and if it doesn't come with what you want, you go out and grab a copy, chances are there is a fully functional program that is still free as in freedom, free as in free of charge, and yours for the taking, come to think of it, the operating system itself was all those too.

If you build your own PC, you don't have anyone cramming an OS, software, their own hardware choices, etc. down your throat.

Sigh, but the Mac.....(starts crying)......viruses...

Yes, Windows has viruses, lots of viruses, huge honkin' viruses, all over the place.

Good thing I use Linux.

Anyway, people with Macs still manage to hose their operating system despite the fact that Apple has made their system so "easy to use" and "virus free", and want you to come fix their computer, that they were bragging about just minutes before it wouldn't boot up.

In my experience, I think the typical Linux user knows more about Mac OS X than a Mac OS X user does, at least in regards to using a root terminal shell session to fix the boot sector on the Mac's hard drive that had been corrupted.

But what do I know? I haven't "discovered" the Mac yet, at least not the one I keep hearing about, so please stop telling me how easy the Mac is while I'm using an Ubuntu Live CD to recover it's operating system.

With the Mac, finally you can have a system with all the drawbacks of Windows *and* Linux, with the benefits of neither!

When it all comes down to the bottom line, Apple is probably even less ethical than Microsoft, and even with virtually no usage share, they try and act like they're the gansters that Microsoft is.

If you already have a Mac, you have my sympathy, for what it's worth, you can run the 32-bit or 64-bit PC versions of Ubuntu on it, if it's an Intel Mac. (Because it is, after all, a PC)

If you have a PowerPC Mac, I feel real sorry for you, there are PPC builds of most Linux distros, but good luck getting any software packages for them, because basically everyone in the whole world uses x86, hey this is what you get for investing in obscure hardware.

[karellen]

totally agree with what you wrote, man. macs are overpriced, the only real thing that differentiates a mac from a regular pc is the os: mac os x

[ddrichardson]

You aren't alone - Best Page in The Universe (http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant), warning NSFW.

[SunnyRabbiera]

well despite some arguments I am still going to buy a mac someday, I just like OSX and I am a bit fond of their computers.
the Mac vs PC debate is annoying no doubt, but both have their advantages and dis advantages.

[DjBones]

that was an interesting article, i just hope people aren't too quick to judge and think you wrote it.

there are quite a few mac people on this forum that will come with their tar and feathers haha


although i don't really like OS X personally (i think the computers themselves are pretty good) i think its nerdy outrages like these, where some dude gets pompous and starts acting superior that are bad PR for linux.. hes obviously smarter than all of us if he knows how to compile

i mean, anybody that isn't smitten by apple kinda already knows those things in the back of their mind.
it pretty much amounts to the jehova witness way of preachin linux, turnin more people away

[Atomic Dog]

A couple of things. At work I install a windows VM on all the macbooks -it does make the laptop more usable for business. Basically they get the nice macbook size and thinness, with the usability of a windows lappy. This says something. (yea I know I could just install winxp on it, but the company officially wants the lappys to be "mac" still.

second. Ubuntu runs great on a macbook except for the draft N atheros wireless. I have not investigated, but I bet somebody out there has a driver made by now for it. I DO LIKE the mac laptops. The macbooks are quite competitive when you compare like parts, and they seem to hold up well with our more punishing users. Seriously, $1200 or $1100 as a student (including a free ipod) gets you a pretty potent 2.15 gig C2D with all the fixens. That is damn close to hp/dell/whatever if you compare the same hdw. $79 for parallels and hopefully an old copy of win2k and you got it all covered.

On a personal note I am forced to have an iMac for a workstation. I hate it. I do not like the feel of mac osx, I do not like the lack of flexibility, I do not like the overpriced apps that are available. In protest I bring in my personal hp laptop with 7.04 everyday and hook it up to a 20" widescreen (that they bought) on my desk and do my work.

My mac use has diminished from trying to get it to work with our ip kvm, router, & other stuff (it is amazing how much web based server admin tools do not work on mac), to just using it for email and sshing into a few servers. Worse, Entourage sucks moist @$$ (pardon the francais) so even email on the mac makes me irritated. Should I even start with the perpetual wireless drops on my wonderful iMac... "how come you didn't email me back", "what do you mean,... uhh I haven't gotten an email in 2 hours, hold on while I reconnect through airport and restart entourage.

Now. A moment about the company's mac rump-swabs. Firstly, they are arrogant and are brainwashed to believe that if it (software or hdw) doesn't run on a mac it isn't worth using. They think that the mac MS office is 100% the same as windows. Presentations and reports are sent, the client complains about poor formatting and THEY ACTUALLY tell the client that they should get a mac, or use openoffice, or get stuffed -nice huh? Clue here. If you create it on office 2003 on a winbox it will look the same. Give the clients what they want and right the first time. mac office, and openoffice are fine as long as a client isn't opening it and printing it from a real copy of MS office. Wait...did you say we should send a pdf? Great, tell my users how to stop the "pinwheel of death" when they try to convert a 100+ report with embedded harvard graphics and other stuff. Thanks for the advice.

I think the thing that really annoys me about mac users is their belief that mac is vastly superior despite its deficiencies, lack of some hardware support, lack of software, and lack of a 2 button mouse (seriously, is it so hard to include a 2 button mouse?). But hey, I'm not bitter. They snicker at my linux laptop and my wife's linux laptop, but it's at least as good, "feels" better than osx, didn't cost me a nickel, and will even run VM's for those few win apps I like that wine won't run...just like your mac...and I don't have to use safari or that dreadful firefox mac port.

macbooks: good
imac: yuck and expensive for what you get
osX: if a linux distro got $400 a pop I bet it would be far better

ps. mac's don't crash. They either get the "pinwheel of death" or a kernel panic. That is not the same as a windows crash. :rolleyes:

edit: If I were, no, when I buy a new notebook it will very likely be a macbook. I really do like them -so don't think that I'm some horrid mac hater. I'm just trying to express a few annoyances about mac and some users I encounter.

[OoooMatron]

it's OSX vs Windows that is the underlying argument in this advertising campaign but because most people don't understand what that actually mean it's Mac vs PC.

When people talk about PC's they usually mean "I run windows".

[astopy]

Being on Linux, I had to go to Youtube, to watch the flash versions of the Mac ads, because even though Totem-Mozilla supports streaming Sorenson (Quicktime) video, the Apple website told me I needed Quicktime to view their ads, fascists.

Generally I don't bother with these threads where people are just venting about something they don't like, but I would just like to point out that the ads play fine with Totem/Firefox here.

[phenest]

that was an interesting article, i just hope people aren't too quick to judge and think you wrote it.

Duh! He did write it! And it doesn't have one fact or show the slightest amount of research.

[psychicist]

I also have brief experience with Mac OS X and while its GUI looks nice it's still more about marketing than about problem free computing. It has more in common with Windows (Vista) than UNIX. I say so because with these systems most innovation seems to take place in the GUI while GNU/Linux, Solaris and the BSDs have a strong emphasis on development of the operating system itself (kernel and system utilities).

That's why both Windows and Mac OS X will never be as stable and have performance as good as the free Unices. I understand that Apple will have Mac OS X 10.5 (Leopard) certified as UNIX, but this would be in the same way as AIX is UNIX, i.e. not really adhering to KISS principles.

[stimpack]

I don't like OSX, it treats you like an idiot. The Mac forums (they call themselves mac forums, really its any apple product worship forums) are full of people who think they are so superior and yet are amazingly technically inept.

[b0ng0]

I completely agree with this. Macs are purely based on negative marketing and blanket advertising. It saddens me to say that a few of my friends who previously used PCs (some quite competant) now own Macs and as soon as they get them they have to justify their extortionate purchases with comments like "It's so nice", "It works so much better than my pc". Just wait till you've had it as long as your pc and you'll see it becomes lamer than a duck who's legs and wings have been removed and its beak is on backwards.

I don't tend to mind people using Macs (although I do question why they are willing to spend so much money on such a low end system) but it's when they start regurgitating the propaghanda from the Mac adverts and press releases that I start to get annoyed. Whilst Windows has its faults I'd say many linux distros are on a par, if not better, than the latest MacOS, and in some cases easier to use (I'm not too keen on the menu bar changing every time I select a different app, it just gets confusing). I don't think there is really any way you can defend buying a Mac unless you really do have money to burn, I can't see any justification for spending such a premium purely for the brand name.

Some people just can't see past the shiny, white plastic...

[Ozor Mox]

I don't tend to mind people using Macs (although I do question why they are willing to spend so much money on such a low end system) but it's when they start regurgitating the propaghanda from the Mac adverts and press releases that I start to get annoyed.

This is annoying I have to say. I don't mind Macs all that much, but now I wouldn't buy one out of principle. I strongly dislike the way they advertise and market the product...basically as a fashion accessory with the markup to boot. Just look at the iPod...nobody can seriously say that that product is good value for money. Alternatives are everywhere with more features, more storage space, and a small price tag...and I don't see any difference with the Mac computers.

My housemate bought one last year, and when I went to PC World with him, I was almost tempted to get one myself until I realised that I really don't want it! He started it up and home and I had a play with it, and it was a very nice computer in fairness, but what got to me a little was when he gave reasons like "it's just cooler" and pointed out the desktop eye-candy as reasons why he bought it. It was then I decided I'd rather install and try out Ubuntu on my current computer, which is good enough, than be taken in by Apple's marketing machine. And here I am still running Ubuntu now :)

[happy-and-lost]

The Mac ads here in the UK were brilliant, as they featured comedy duo Mitchell and Webb, who are best known for their sitcom "Peep Show".

In Peep show Mitchell (PC) is a socially inept businessman who is ultimately a reliable, stable, lovable character (in spite of having stalkerish tendencies).

Webb (Mac), however is an unemployed selfish drug-abusing layabout, who you really wouldn't want to meet your mother.

So they got it spot on.

[tigerpants]

I was surprised at just how mediocre both Vista and OSX are. Vista especially. Its the OS equivalent of lettice.

[stuh84]

OOOOO A post having a go at other OS's, thats a new idea.....

I like Macs, I own two, I like Linux, I own two PC's with them on. I do not mind Windows, however I have no installs of it apart from a Virtual Machine or two.

I like that the software and hardware I use works with a Mac, and not Linux (GOOD audio interfaces that work with Linux are as far apart to find as a needle in a haystack).

Sorry and all, but I shall use ALL options available to me. Just so happens to be that I like the Mac option more.

[psychicist]

I don't think there is really any way you can defend buying a Mac unless you really do have money to burn, I can't see any justification for spending such a premium purely for the brand name.

The only reason I can think of to ever buy a Mac for running Mac OS X (and then I would probably buy one second-hand) is because of some Mac OS X specific applications that are so much better than what is available for Linux or Windows that it would be foolish to do without them. I mostly thinking of media creation apps here from the likes of Steinberg, Adobe etc. There is nothing wrong with Macs per se but you should just run a real operating system on them instead of the PoS that is Mac OS X.

The first thing that Apple could do with Mac OS X is to throw away its kernel and adopt a modern one such as those from Solaris 11 or FreeBSD 7.0. This single change would make the occurrences of Mac OS X going down a lot less frequent. Maybe it's me but an operating system should never ever go down unless the hardware has gone bad and even then there is some hardware (Sun SPARC, HP IA64, IBM POWER) that can cope with these issues and keep the operating system running.

[marco123]

I agree with most of the points raised by the OP. Why pay that much for hardware? I bought my box for £272 w/o OS, and put Ubuntu 7.04 64bit on it. I have the same performance and stability as someone who has bought a £600 mac mini. Except I have a bigger hard drive, faster GPU etc... :confused:

[aysiu]

I've merged this with another thread on the same topic.

[stuh84]

I agree with most of the points raised by the OP. Why pay that much for hardware? I bought my box for £272 w/o OS, and put Ubuntu 7.04 64bit on it. I have the same performance and stability as someone who has bought a £600 mac mini. Except I have a bigger hard drive, faster GPU etc... :confused:

And how big was the case on this one?

Unless you are comparing like for like on cases, I think thats an unfair comparison, the Mac Mini isn't meant to be blazing fast technology built into the size of a matchbox, its a small form factor piece of hardware. For a PC of the same form factor you are talking more than the Mini, the Mini has Core 2 Duo now so its not that much of a slouch, and for an alternative in the PC realm, you are looking at This (http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Systems/Barebone/AOpen+MiniPC+MP945-VXR?productId=25591), and thats just the barebones case alone, no optical drive, no memory, no CPU. Given that you can pick up a brand new Mac Mini for £400, I don't think the Mini's are that bad a piece of kit.

Obviously not everyone is interested in small form factor, but the Mini isn't exactly overpriced compared to its PC equivalents put it that way.

I think the real problem with Apple is, as many of the fanboys/zealots complain about, and the rest of the Apple fans too, is that they have no mid range headless desktop. You have the bottom end Mini, the top end Mac Pro, the all in one iMacs, and the laptop Macbooks and Macbook Pro's. But, there is a market for something that would provide an equivalent for most PC desktops, and those who want some upgradability. This would add something Apple could gain from, a market for more enthusiasts, at which point they have a finger in every part of the market pretty much.

I just dont see what the huge backlash against Macs is all about. They, for me and many many others, work a lot better than Windows (and I dont hate Windows, I just choose not to use it), and are provided greater commercial support than Linux (which for me, many audio editors, video editors, etc) is more important than saving a couple of hundred quid, when most of the hardware wont work with the software, and the software wont work with the hardware. Yes, Wireless support, Graphic card support, support for network cards and the like is great for most computer tasks, but audio devices and video devices that work with linux? Its back to the needle in a haystack analogy.

My personal view of how each platform stands is
Linux = Great for servers, great for desktops, great for everyday usage, very very sketchy for audio and video (the software isn't what i'm referring to)
Macs = Good for servers, great for desktops, great for everyday usage, absolutely perfect for audio and video

This is why I run a Linux Desktop and a Laptop/Server, while I run a Mac Laptop and Audio Workstation. I use what works.

[karellen]

Duh! He did write it! And it doesn't have one fact or show the slightest amount of research.

research: http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/6494001/wo/dD1UMJ6aj1U62S34G9F1YRBaPj8/6.?p=0
take a look at the components inside of a Mac. and then read something about computer architecture (and von Neumann Machine). hope you'll realize that a Mac is a PC. the rest is just advertising and marketing ******** + Mac OS X (which is a fine os)

[aysiu]

Yes, technically, any personal computer is a PC.

But in real life, people use the term PC to refer to Windows PC. That's why the commercials say "I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC" instead of "I'm a Mac PC. And I'm a Windows PC."

[karellen]

Yes, technically, any personal computer is a PC.

But in real life, people use the term PC to refer to Windows PC. That's why the commercials say "I'm a Mac. And I'm a PC" instead of "I'm a Mac PC. And I'm a Windows PC."

I know, still people should be aware of this. but, overall, they are free to spend their money the way they like

[Frak]

Personally, I don't think any company can win if they trap you to certain hardware, from a certain company, with a certain amount of money that has to be paid within so much time for a certain amount of time.

Windows/Linux PC:
You can buy it or build it
You can buy the OS or download it
You are never forced to upgrade
You don't have to renew your license

Sounds like freedom to me.

EDIT
Also, as people think Macs are expensive, they will lose from that eventually. They could be the best computer known to man, but if the common consumer can't afford it, they won't sell.

OS X is a great OS. One of my favorites, I just don't like Macs.

[DjBones]

i have always figured that mac's are for people who want a nice operating system but don't really care about computers
((by care i mean, genuinely interested in how a computer works, how the software works, like configuring things, producing and compiling software..))

i thrill at building packages from source and using the terminal, and i believe you have to care or else your not gonna have fun on linux.
((goes along with the point that you don't have to be nerd to use linux, but you have to be pretty savvy to have a narly linux system))

[Frak]

I currently run OS X86 with Fink, and find that not only does OS X run fast on regular hardware, but compiled programs are lightning fast.

EDIT
Macports is great also.

[Chang An]

I think the Linux community (Those who use FOSS because they think it runs better than proprietary crap or because some other reason that has nothing to do with the ethics of the situation.) does not hate Apple.
I think most of the GNU/Linux community (Those who use FOSS because they care about their freedoms) does hate Apple on the other hand. :)

[karellen]

Personally, I don't think any company can win if they trap you to certain hardware, from a certain company, with a certain amount of money that has to be paid within so much time for a certain amount of time.

Windows/Linux PC:
You can buy it or build it
You can buy the OS or download it
You are never forced to upgrade
You don't have to renew your license

Sounds like freedom to me.

EDIT
Also, as people think Macs are expensive, they will lose from that eventually. They could be the best computer known to man, but if the common consumer can't afford it, they won't sell.

OS X is a great OS. One of my favorites, I just don't like Macs.

I second this. I really like mac os x as an OS, but I don't like Macs and Apple's attitude

[karellen]

I currently run OS X86 with Fink, and find that not only does OS X run fast on regular hardware, but compiled programs are lightning fast.

EDIT
Macports is great also.

you run os x on an regular intel/amd pc?...how well it performs? did you find drivers?

[Frak]

you run os x on an regular intel/amd pc?...how well it performs? did you find drivers?
I do thanks to JaS and Semetex Kernel. JaS put the OS together, Semthex compiled a custom Darwin kernel from source to run it on SSE2 (Pentium 4, D, M, etc) and a version for SSE3 (Core 2 Duo, Core 2 Quad, etc.)

Its very responsive on only 512MB of RAM, it only needs 192 to run. (256 to run smoothly)

Note
Intel is your best friend, and oddly, ATi is also.

Nvidia drivers only work on 10.4.8 and above. (Yet I can't get it to install)

[Depressed Man]

Hmm what about Intel wireless chipsets and intel integrated graphics? I'm thinking about trying it one day if I'm bored enough on my laptop lol.

[Frak]

Anything Intel works out of the box. Just use the Airport driver patch. I even got my Linksys WMP54G running just fine.

[Depressed Man]

Haha looks like I'll be adding Mac OSX to my list then.

mmm triple booting Sony laptop lol.

[Frak]

Here's a pic.

[Depressed Man]

Wait, if it works does that mean I can use anything that's in OSX on this? iChat, and such?

It'd be amusing if it did lol.

[Frak]

Yep, via SSE3 emulation (included in Kernel)

[NoSmokingBandit]

I installed osx86 once. I quit using that for the same reason that i quit linux: some hardware refused to work. Of course, i cant blame this on apple since im not technically allowed to run osx on my dell. One thing i noticed while using it is how terrible the dock is. MS has the right idea with the taskbar and i missed it dearly. If you only want to use integrated software, osx86 will probably work fine for you. It will probably run faster than on an actual mac computer.

I dont see why some people say MS is trying to force you to use their software. Its the pc manufacturers that try to force it on you as they have the deal with MS to pre-install windows on every system they sell (with the exception of dell, of course).
I hate apple's insanely proprietary means of business. I bet if MS only allowed their software to be installed on computers they built, with a very limited number of hardware choices we would see system stability close to osx and linux. MS has a balance of open/closed mentality. Anywho, enough of that.

[Frak]

I agree, they are extremely proprietary. And the dock actually becomes a hassle to use after awhile (all windows using the same app look EXACTLY the same, it randomly comes up if you barely touch it, if you have a bottom scroll bar, you have to be careful not to click an app, you have to add the app from the Applications folder to it to use it faster, yet it makes it cluttered, etc)

Also, this turned me off of Safari, its pretty bad as a Web Browser. Not much good for anything else either.

[BLTicklemonster]

I love Apples in pies. Otherwise, gimme something free. Money is for paying bills, not buying OSes.

[Depressed Man]

I agree, they are extremely proprietary. And the dock actually becomes a hassle to use after awhile (all windows using the same app look EXACTLY the same, it randomly comes up if you barely touch it, if you have a bottom scroll bar, you have to be careful not to click an app, you have to add the app from the Applications folder to it to use it faster, yet it makes it cluttered, etc)

Also, this turned me off of Safari, its pretty bad as a Web Browser. Not much good for anything else either.

I'm not a big fan of the dock either. I like ObjectDock or AWN over the real Apple dock lol.

[Frak]

I'm not a big fan of the dock either. I like ObjectDock or AWN over the real Apple dock lol.
+1, but the Dock in 10.5 from what I've used has been improved, and now has a purpose :P

[NoSmokingBandit]

Yeah, it has "stacks" or something. Objectbar had this way before apple, but they called it "Flyout menus." Just apple taking someone else's idea, polishing it up, and calling it a major breakthrough again.
I also hate safari. It just plain sucks. Firefox owns the pants off any other browser. IE is even better than safari, and thats saying a lot.

[Frak]

Saying alot, but its 100% true. Running IE 6 with Rosetta is better than using Safari.

[darksidedude]

wow, I didnt think safari was that bad wow, thats a bit of a shock to me, the new version that comes with leopard is preaty good though, but the only tiger version to download was the beta, we shall see next month

[hellion0]

What do I think of OSX/Apple? Honestly? I love the eye-candy desktop and the UNIX-based functionality. I like being able to run my preferred IRC client (irssi) without a ton of extra programs that never work right anyway (Cygwin.) I love the desktop options. I especially love how easy network filesharing is as compared to Windows (and I love the irony that it's M$'s own sharing format (SMB)!)

I remember when I laid eyes on a Windows system for the first time. Ever had an animal look at you with that "I don't LIKE you" expression, while not growling/barking/mewling/hissing at you? Yeah. That's how I looked at Windows back in '95. Not so with an Apple; I was instantly in love, and it was so EASY to figure out!

And that's the best thing of all, the ease of use!

[Frak]

Only thing I hated was the fact to compile under OS X, you had to have Xcode. To get Xcode, you have to register with Apple as a dev.

[hellion0]

Painless, though. I just used a throwaway Gmail account.

[Frak]

Painless, though. I just used a throwaway Gmail account.
Yeah, but they do act very intrusive.

[Alfa989]

Yeah, it has "stacks" or something. Objectbar had this way before apple, but they called it "Flyout menus." Just apple taking someone else's idea, polishing it up, and calling it a major breakthrough again.
I also hate safari. It just plain sucks. Firefox owns the pants off any other browser. IE is even better than safari, and thats saying a lot.

WTF???

1.- I'd like you to prove your first claim... Because fly-out menus are used for browsing folders that are placed in the dock... And they only offer limited functionality btw... But, of course, you don't say who copied the whole Dock idea... And the screen edge tabs... Or how they totally ripped of the tab gui elements from the first versions of OS X... Apple doesn't steal ideas... And i'm not gonna get into ObejctDock's user experience regarding the UI...

2.- Why? Any reasons? Claims? Proofs?
Cause I'll tell you, I don't even know if you ever tried Safari, but something tells me that you haven't... :)
Without having tried Safari is easy to live with Firefox's slow UI and slow browsing experience... Or its pain-in-the-*** bookmark management... I've lost my whole collection of bookmarks on several gecko-based browsers... Not really funny, huh? And it doesn't even have a decent bookmark import-export feature!!!

[Ultra Magnus]

WTF???

1.- I'd like you to prove your first claim... Because fly-out menus are used for browsing folders that are placed in the dock... And they only offer limited functionality btw... But, of course, you don't say who copied the whole Dock idea... And the screen edge tabs... Or how they totally ripped of the tab gui elements from the first versions of OS X... Apple doesn't steal ideas... And i'm not gonna get into ObejctDock's user experience regarding the UI...

Kind of irrelevant - The guys point was that Apple copied someone else, he point is valid even if they previously copied another idea from apple, the point being that most of the new features is Leopard are all copied from different places.

[TheWizzard]

WTF???

2.- Why? Any reasons? Claims? Proofs?
Cause I'll tell you, I don't even know if you ever tried Safari, but something tells me that you haven't... :)
Without having tried Safari is easy to live with Firefox's slow UI and slow browsing experience... Or its pain-in-the-*** bookmark management... I've lost my whole collection of bookmarks on several gecko-based browsers... Not really funny, huh? And it doesn't even have a decent bookmark import-export feature!!!

please get serious. there are some good things about osx, but safari is definitely not among them.