Program Launcher + Window list/Taskbar + System tray/Notification area = REDUNDANT!

[robin.com.au]

NOTE
This thread is not about OSX being almighty. 15 Things Apple Should Change in Mac OS X (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9006104)
All OSes have pros and cons. OSX have flaws. Windoze have plenty of flaws.

This thread is about improving Linux Desktop Environments, acknowledging that the Linux DE too have flaws, and there are plenty of room for improvement and innovation. It is also about acknowledging that other OSes, like OSX, DO handle certain things better than Linux , and how we in the Linux community can learn from it and maybe develop similar or another way to tackle those issues. Of course there are things that Linux does better than OSX, like 'multiple workspaces'. Now OSX and Vista wants/have it.

This thread does not belong to the Mac OSX forum section. It should belong to something Linux-related. Please move this thread appropriately. This thread started from Ubuntu Cafe.

SUMMARY
--
The window list/task bar,notification area/system tray and program launcher and maybe alt+tab should just be one thing. Desktop environments should rethink the way hidden/minimized/inactive windows should be handled.

OSX DOCK (demo: Macworld San Francisco 2000-The Mac OS X Introduction (Pt.3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GkoAa5718Y))
1. You look at the OS X dock, it seems so flexible, cos you can 'drag' anything into it and 're-position' the icons.

2. What really reduced redundancy is where 1 icon in the dock represents opened applications/window list + system tray + program launcher. If something like that exists for my panel, that would save so much space, and I could add more things to my panel and I prefer using 1 panel for more space for more important things, like applications.

PROGRAM LAUNCHER + WINDOW LIST + SYSTEM TRAY
1. You look at the Window List, you can't do anything to it. Everything just opens from left to right.

2. You have an icon here which represents 'opening' GAIM (program launcher)
then another icon there representing that GAIM is 'opened' (window list)
then yet another icon over there which shows the 'status' of GAIM (system tray)

Can you see the redundancy? Maybe theres an applet to merge these 3? Docking programs on Ubuntu don't work the best.

IDEAS/PROPOSAL Program Launcher+Taskbar+System Tray HYBRID (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=320315)
These are a few ideas I have on this window list + systray hybrid (maybe a program launcher as well).
Lets use 3 opened Firefox windows as an example.

For a start, make each task button in the window list rearrangeable by dragging.
Each of the ideas below would have just 1 icon next to the Firefox button which can act as a system tray.

1. In the Window List, there will be 1 Firefox button with 3 segments, each segment representing each window. When you drag the button, you drag all 3 segments and the systray icon with it . This is for people who do not like grouping windows, but want things to be more 'grouped' together.

2. Same idea as current grouped windows except you can choose to just 'hover' your mouse over the Firefox button, and a list of 3 items can be chosen. Each item representing a window.

Here is what it might look like:
http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlist.png
http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlistb.png
--

LONG VERSION

WHY I CHOSE DELL UBUNTU OVER APPLE OSX
I've noticed a pretty significant amount of University students switching to Macs, mostly the ones doing computer science. A friend of mine has just turned to a Mac user and have been raving all about it to me. I've always dreamed of getting a Mac and was determined to get one soon, but since I am poor and love Ubuntu, I just settled for a cheap *** bare-minimum Dell Inspiron 6400 running Edgy Eft (I may try to get a refund on Microsh*t Windoze one day). During the time I bought the Dell, there has been so many news of people's disatisfaction with Macs and converted to Ubuntu, whether it be that:

1. The file formats of their 1st party apps are not standardized and locks you into using Apple-only apps (much like how Microsh*t do with Office).

2. Not as customizable as Linux. Many/some keyboard shortcuts cannot be changed. Whereas in KDE, almost anything can have your own custom keyboard shortcut (I like). The top ~20 pixels of the screen where the OSX menu bar inhibits is STRICTLY off limits.

3. Macs are simply horrendous as servers. (Not really much of a complaint but yeah)

4. Expensive, and Apple really profits a lot from every purchase of anything Mac.

5. More reasons that I can't remember.

Regardless, I know Macs are still awesome, but because of the reasons above, (mainly I like customizability and Beryl looks prettier), I bought a Dell, exterminated Winblows suXPee, and cleanse it with Ubuntu. I had no regrets.

TAKING NOTICE OF MAC OSX AGAIN
Now suddenly everyones getting a Mac, I felt like feeling jealous, but instead I thought, my Ubuntu Edgy+Beryl+Xfce4.4+KDEapps+Opera will kick anyone's Mac any day.

Then today my friend continued to brag a bit about her Mac and sent me a link to youtube to watch some old clips of Steve Jobs. Then I got hooked to youtube immediately and started viewing all Mac conferences.

After watching the one when Apple 1st previews OSX in Macworld San Francisco 2000-The Mac OS X Introduction (Pt.3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GkoAa5718Y)

Even though that was year 2000, I felt that OS X alpha's Aqua is so much superior than todays Gnome/Kde/XFCE after 6 long years.

Please view the Macworld link right above.

LITTLE THINGS THAT I LIKE & NOT LIKING FLOATING WINDOWS
The Part 2(or 1) of that video shows how the 'save dialog' is stuck to the window, so you know that it is that particular window that wanted to save. Rather than something like GIMP where it has so many bloody windows. Toolbox is a window, dialogues are windows, opened images are windows. Why is that??? F**kin cluttered! Can't it be just 1 window containing all that? Like Photoshop. I've talked about the concept of 'floating windows' which is how all application windows behave today and how it annoys me and there are better ways like tabbed & tiled window managers like ion3. The thread is this: Current concept/conventions of 'window management' = UNPRODUCTIVE? (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=252315).

However I realised that 'floating windows' are what people are used to and casual users could control it easily with a mouse. I believe that the mouse slows productivity, and keeping your hands on the keyboard and using keyboard shortcuts are the fastest and most efficient way of working, therefore making 'floating windows' crap and tabbed/tiled windows ideal. But the mouse was invented for a reason, ease of use and is ideal for 'floating windows' even though you might waste your time dragging, overlapping, moving, resizing and keeping 1 hand away from the keyboard where actual work can be done.

WINDOW LISTS/TASKBAR + SYSTEM TRAYS ANNOYS ME
Anyway, back to the Mac OSX thing.
So other than 'floating windows' which annoyed me (but not that much anymore), is bloody window list/taskbar and notification area/system tray. Firstly, why the fork are there so many names for them??!?!? They are redundant enough!!

When you alt+tab, to me, looks like another redundancy as well. What you see when you alt+tab is pretty much the same thing that you see in your window list/task bar. But people tell me that alt+tab is used to quickly switch between 2 most recently used apps (I would prefer if alt+tab directly affects the window list instead). Fair enough. So I will focus my annoyance more towards the taskbar and system tray.

In contrast, look at that Mac youtube video, it talks about the OS X 'dock'. It is a taskbar, system tray AND program launcher (that could almost do away the start > program menu as well) AND whatever you want really, like files. How clever is that??

I've always known about the dock's ability but was able to put up with window lists and notification areas, UNTIL I saw that video today, seeing the dock in pratical use and how Steve Jobs make it sound so wonderful. It has been over 6 years, why are we still using window lists and system trays??? We don't have to COPY the OS X dock exactly, there are definitely other ideas, we can all innovate.

There are other OSX dock imitations for Ubuntu, like kxdocker, kooldock, gnome-dock. But they are all lacking. Kxdocker is probably the closest, but works crap with Beryl, and I cannot drag and drop icons anywhere around the dock, and rearrange them, among other things.

Then there is this 'single window mode' in OSX on the right side of the title bar (please watch the video to see what it does). I think that solves 80%(maybe 90%) of the problem that I have with 'floating windows'.

CONCLUSION
I've always thought that maybe one day the problem that I have with cluttered 'floating windows' and taskbar+system trays would be solved. But it already has! Apple has done it! Now I do feel slight regret for not getting a MacBook, especially recently I feel that Edgy Eft isn't a very strong release compared to other versions and even other distros. Beryl is silky smooth though. BURN!

I speak of customizability on Linux but could not customize the Window List + System Tray to make it more usable and productive. I spoke of Mac's UNcustomizability, but it was done right in the 1st place and did not need any customizing.

It's probably too much to ask telling developers to write their apps to not support system trays and windowlist, and rewrite to support something which is non-existent at the moment. So I guess that's the problem, different apps (desktops, file manager, IMs,etc.) are written by different people spread in different places around the world. I guess that's the downside of opensource, big changes cannot be made (Can it?) Whereas the OS X developers are all in one building, and could make those changes.

What I really like to see 1st on DE (desktop environments) on Linux though, is to make each item in the window list/taskbar draggable so I could rearrange the list instead of always stacking minimized apps always to the right. I thought DEs would allow something like that already.

Just sharing my thoughts.

By the way,
Other than the crazy amount of windows, GIMP is good, I use it often. And I also like to see brushe sizes that can be changed dynamically.

Thank you for reading,
Robin

[aidanr]

sorry, i didn't read the long version but to reply to the summary version, choice is a good thing, i can choose to use either the window list or the taskbar or both or neither, personally i use the taskbar and the scale plugin in beryl and have removed the window list and the alt-tab, i like it this way but it may not suit others, in short: choice is good

[kerry_s]

What? I can't understand exactly what you want, Just tell us the feature you want with out all the ranting. There is a linux app for most of macs features. I've made my system look & act like a mac ages ago.
example:
expose = skippy

Here, to help you along-> http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/6223/1/

[mushroom]

Beryl's scale + show desktop + global menubar + quicklaunch = happy and productive me

[pichalsi]

I think he meant the thing you can put windows and program launchers in one bar. Nice feautre but im not sure if i could recognize widnows from their miniatures

[robin.com.au]

in short: choice is good
Choice is certainly good, but I chose to look for something which reduces the redundancy of window lists & system tray & program launcher. There is none. Maybe there is some sort of applet which merge all these?

What? I can't understand exactly what you want, Just tell us the feature you want with out all the ranting. There is a linux app for most of macs features. I've made my system look & act like a mac ages ago.
example:
expose = skippy

Here, to help you along-> http://linuxplanet.com/linuxplanet/tutorials/6223/1/
I get offtrack all the time and always end up ranting. Anyway I don't want my Ubuntu to LOOK like an OSX. I love the orangy brown and tangerine theme. What I want is innovative functionality that OSX offers. By looking at that youtube video, you can see that the OSX dock is sooo dynamic and flexible.

--
OSX DOCK
1. You look at the OS X dock, it seems so flexible, cos you can 'drag' anything into it and 're-position' the icons.

2. What really reduced redundancy is where 1 icon in the dock represents opened applications/window list + system tray + program launcher. If something like that exists for my panel, that would save so much space, and I could add more things to my panel and I prefer using 1 panel for more space for more important things, like applications.

PROGRAM LAUNCHER + WINDOW LIST + SYSTEM TRAY
1. You look at the Window List, you can't do anything to it. Everything just opens from left to right.

2. You have an icon here which represents 'opening' GAIM (program launcher)
then another icon there representing that GAIM is 'opened' (window list)
then yet another icon over there which shows the 'status' of GAIM (system tray)
--

Isn't that redundant?? These redundancy is even more profound with KDE apps, where most apps have their own system tray as well.
Maybe there could be an applet somewhere which could cleverly merge these 3 things into 1? There are 'dock' programs to download but they are all lacking, none of them allows dragging icons and rearranging properly.

I am surprised that items in the window list/taskbar could not be at least re-arranged.

What I 'ultimately' want, i guess, is that there is plenty of room for GUI innovation on Linux DEs, I want to see something less Microshi* Windblows like. I look forward to what KDE4 has to offer but it seems so far away.

What I 'specifically' want for now, is probably something which forms the Window List + System Tray + Program Launcher as one, and allows me to re-arrange items in that 'hybrid' application.

[aysiu]

I've moved this to the OS X forums, since you really could retitle this thread "In Praise of OS X."

I will say that the Dock is lame for a few reasons:
1. It covers up application windows.
2. It is not an application launcher to replace the Start Menu > All Programs. If you make it a replacement, you end up with a really huge dock with a lot of tiny little icons.
3. Clicking an application icon for an application that's already open doesn't open another instance of that application (say a new window in Firefox), even if the application is already in focus. The one exception to this is Finder.
4. Cmd-Tab does not restore minimized applications--they stay minimized even when they're focused.
5. Thumbnails on the Dock are often too small to be meaningful, unlike items in the window list, where you can clearly see the application icon and, if you have fewer than six applications open, you can also see a description of what's open.
6. As far as I know, there's no quick way to switch between windows within an application. Cmd-Tab switches between applications, but not windows.
7. You accidentally drag an icon off the dock and it goes poof into nowhere. If drag and drop really made sense, you'd drag it off the dock, and it would appear on the desktop.
8. It's not totally flexible. Try dragging the trash can to another part of the dock or a custom launcher (I made one for my wife's Powerbook--it launches Gnocatan) to any part of the dock. The trash and custom launchers can go to only one side of the dock.

Sorry--all those things sound great in theory, but I've found the OS X interface to be terrible execution of usability in practice. Expose looks cool, but when you have too many windows open, you can't even see what window is what.

The things I do like about OS X's interface (from a usability standpoint--from an eye candy standpoint, I love it):
1. Cmd-Q is universal for quitting applications. In both Windows and Linux, there's no consistent way to exit applications. Sometimes you just Control-W. Sometimes you Control-Q. Sometimes you Alt-F, X. Other times, you need to Alt-F4.
2. Expose is really cool if you have only six or seven application windows open.
3. Widgets allow you something like another desktop without switching "workspaces." I've not seen as clean an execution in Superkaramba or gDesklets.

[robin.com.au]

I've moved this to the OS X forums, since you really could retitle this thread "In Praise of OS X."

Please don't do that, oh wait you've already done it. I am a devoted Ubuntu user and only want improvement to this wonderful distro by comparing with other OSes. I want to improve Ubuntu not the Mac. Could you kindly return this to Ubuntu Cafe, or something related to Ubuntu or Gnome/KDE/XFCE Desktop Environments.


I will say that the Dock is lame for a few reasons:
1. It covers up application windows.

I remember once I configured to make windows not go under the dock. But you will see waste of space on bottom left and right.

2. It is not an application launcher to replace the Start Menu > All Programs. If you make it a replacement, you end up with a really huge dock with a lot of tiny little icons.

Agreed, I thought of that, but i did say ALMOST replace the start menu > all programs.

3. Clicking an application icon for an application that's already open doesn't open another instance of that application (say a new window in Firefox), even if the application is already in focus. The one exception to this is Finder.

I see

4. Cmd-Tab does not restore minimized applications--they stay minimized even when they're focused.

Really? I see.

5. Thumbnails on the Dock are often too small to be meaningful, unlike items in the window list, where you can clearly see the application icon and, if you have fewer than six applications open, you can also see a description of what's open.

I thought about the smallness too, but at least these items can be repositioned to the far left or right or something so you know where it is. You cant drag things into the window lists or reorder the items in it.

6. As far as I know, there's no quick way to switch between windows within an application. Cmd-Tab switches between applications, but not windows.

You can switch between apps. I do remember that you press Alt+tab or Cmd+` or something (I remember the button, tilde, left of the 1 key was involved) and it switches between windows RELATED to the current focused app. While Cmd-Tab switches between applications. I found that rather cool.

7. You accidentally drag an icon off the dock and it goes poof into nowhere. If drag and drop really made sense, you'd drag it off the dock, and it would appear on the desktop.

Really?? That is rather silly isn't it? But Steve Jobs showed it working perfectly in the demo.

Sorry--all those things sound great in theory, but I've found the OS X interface to be terrible execution of usability in practice. Expose looks cool, but when you have too many windows open, you can't even see what window is what.

Everything has its flaws, both Ubuntu and OSX have flaws. But I don't care about OSX's flaws at the moment really, maybe the overall experience in OSX is crap, but I don't care. What I care about is making Linux DEs better by addressing its current flaws and comparing to other ideas/theories which look appealing. So please put this back to Ubuntu Cafe or something appropriate.

I really love the idea/theory of the OSX dock and also ideas that Linux have, so OSes should take great ideas from other OSes and build on it or change it to something unique and better. Maybe the guys at GNOME/KDE/XFCE can do something better? That would be awesome.

By the way, can I change the thread title since I started it? I wanted to change to: Program Launcher + Window list/Taskbar + System tray/Notification area = REDUNDANT!

Thank you for reading,
Robin

[aysiu]

Please don't do that, oh wait you've already done it. I am a devoted Ubuntu user and only want improvement to this wonderful distro by comparing with other OSes. I want to improve Ubuntu not the Mac. Could you kindly return this to Ubuntu Cafe, or something related to Ubuntu or Gnome/KDE/XFCE Desktop Environments.I think if you're genuinely interested in integrating launcher, window list, and system tray, then you shouldn't offer up OS X as an example, since they're not integrated.

Minimized applications still go to a window list area on the dock (separate from the application icon), applications not on the dock need to be launched separately from the Applications folder, and you have no way to easily see from the dock what windows you have open in applications--only the fact that the application is open.

This is my main reason for moving the thread to OS X--your first post really seems to be more about the wonders of OS X than about an actual proposal for Linux. I think you should start a separate thread about an integrated panel with new ideas and just forget about OS X. I was going on my gut and intuition, but I'm going to throw it out to the other moderators to see what they think. I may have been wrong, but in the meantime I'm keeping it here. I or another mod may move it somewhere else soon. In the meantime, please respect my decision. Thanks.

I thought about the smallness too, but at least these items can be repositioned to the far left or right or something so you know where it is. You cant drag things into the window lists or reorder the items in it. Sorry I wasn't clear about this before--I was referring to the thumbnails of the windows created when you minimize an application. Now, personally, if I were running OS X, I would never minimize anything. I would Cmd-Tab and Expose to get to stuff, but I don't run OS X--my wife does, and she minimizes all the time, and often has on her dock four or five unidentifiable thumbnails of minimized apps.

You can switch between apps. I do remember that you press Alt+tab or Cmd+` or something (I remember the button, tilde, left of the 1 key was involved) and it switches between windows RELATED to the current focused app. While Cmd-Tab switches between applications. I found that rather cool. That would be rather. Cool. I'll play around/search around to see what the actual key combination is.

Everything has its flaws, both Ubuntu and OSX have flaws. But I don't care about OSX's flaws at the moment really, maybe the overall experience in OSX is crap, but I don't care. What I care about is making Linux DEs better by addressing its current flaws and comparing to other ideas/theories which look appealing. So please put this back to Ubuntu Cafe or something appropriate. But I'm pointing out OS X's flaws to highlight how its model is not something to aspire to.

I really love the idea/theory of the OSX dock and also ideas that Linux have, so OSes should take great ideas from other OSes and build on it or change it to something unique and better. Maybe the guys at GNOME/KDE/XFCE can do something better? That would be awesome. I thought it already was doing something better. Unfortunately, changes in Linux don't get made because you start a thread with an idea "Hey, what if we did this thing OS X does?" There are two ways things get done, new ideas get implemented:

1. Someone wants it to get done and gets it done herself.
2. Someone wants it to get done and pays someone to do it, or asks someone very nicely, and that person--out of the kindness of her heart--programs it for the other person.

It's not merely because a bunch of forum members agree "Hey, that's a good idea." Unless, of course, one of those forum members is a programmer and has the time/energy to implement the idea.


By the way, can I change the thread title since I started it? I wanted to change to: Program Launcher + Window list/Taskbar + System tray/Notification area = REDUNDANT! Sure, I'll change it.

[robin.com.au]

I respect your decision, but come on, I've already put a note on my 1st post saying that this isn't an OSX worshipping thread.


Sorry I wasn't clear about this before--I was referring to the thumbnails of the windows created when you minimize an application. Now, personally, if I were running OS X, I would never minimize anything. I would Cmd-Tab and Expose to get to stuff, but I don't run OS X--my wife does, and she minimizes all the time, and often has on her dock four or five unidentifiable thumbnails of minimized apps.

Yes I already got what you mean. I do agree that you can't really tell which app those small thumbnail represents. Then I started talking about how the items in the Window List cannot be rearrange, whereas you can in a dock. Isn't it a good idea to have the ability to drag and drop each item in the window list to different position? Like how web browser 'tabs' work nowadays.


But I'm pointing out OS X's flaws to highlight how its model is not something to aspire to.

But just looking at how the dock works, it is rather clever don't you think? Not even the slightest? Maybe the 'idea' behind it? Even if it isn't practical (which I think it is), at least it's something unique, the 'idea' of simplifying everything is quite clever. I like all these little things which can be improve on, to make things easier on the eyes. We don't have to copy exactly like the dock, I can already think of some form of applet for the xfce4-panel, gnome-panel or kicker. For a start, maybe the system tray icon can be put in place of the window list's icon? And make the icons rearrangeable by dragging?

I thought it already was doing something better.

Weeeell not really, the window list and system trays seems to function the same since.....Win3.1? Mac OS1? I don't know but it stayed the same for a long time.

Unfortunately, changes in Linux don't get made because you start a thread with an idea "Hey, what if we did this thing OS X does?".

That's right, I wish I have time to learn how to program, but I'm too lazy and I have considered, when I have the money and time, I just might pay developers to make something. I know this thread will not start a revolution or anything.

For now though, I just thought I'll just start a thread, to start some sort of 'awareness' in people's minds. So after reading this thread, when people start looking at the icons in the window list and the icon on the system tray, they might think to themselves, "Hey maybe that guy from ubuntuforums have a point, why not make them 1 thing? Why not make an applet which cleverly handles both the window list and system tray? The possibilities!" Just maybe. Starting a thread is the best I can do at the moment.

[aysiu]

I also wish I could program. I have time for it, but I just don't know if I have the patience for it. I'm just trying to be practical--just because an idea should (in some theoretical idealistic sense) be implemented doesn't mean it actually will. Programmers have different priorities, dictated by their own interests or by money... or an immense generosity.

I don't really see how the dock is so clever, no, which is why I posted a list of why I think it stinks, actually.

As for the system tray, window list, launcher thing, I don't see how it's redundant. I'm looking at mine now, and I see launchers for my home directory, Thunderbird, Firefox, and the terminal--these allow me to launch new instances of those applications. I then see two window list items--one for Thunderbird and one for Firefox--allowing me to focus (if I'm too lazy to Alt-Tab) on the appropriate window with the click of a mouse and also to see what I have open (Ubuntu forums, which email box). Finally, I have a systray item for Klipper and Rhythmbox--those are the only indications I have that those programs are running.

So you think I should just have one icon to launch a new Firefox window and to view the currently opened one? (This would be a new feature anyway, since OS X's dock does not currently do this.)

[robin.com.au]

Now try to think like someone technologically retarded, like my old parents.
You look at the window list, it has an icon with text saying 'firefox', and an icon with text saying 'thunderbird'.
You look at the system tray and you see icons as well.
Why is there one side which has icons with text and other side which has icons without text? What is the difference? I click on either of them, something appears/focused/opened.

What about apps like Opera, Kopete or Gaim, which all use both the system tray and window list.
I think I should be more specific when I say the word 'redundant', I really mean VISUALLY redundant. I didn't really mean to say to do away with the system tray or window list. Though for some apps, I see that a window list and system tray behaves pretty much the same. But what really behaves very identical are system trays and applets.

[AgenT]

You should try Beryl. Yes, at first it looks like just an amazing showcase of graphic prowess, but it actually has a lot of the usability features you are looking for.
4. Cmd-Tab does not restore minimized applications--they stay minimized even when they're focused.Beryl can restore minimized applications both in Scale and in Application Switcher (your "alt-tab").
6. As far as I know, there's no quick way to switch between windows within an application. Cmd-Tab switches between applications, but not windows.Beryl does this with Scale.

Sorry--all those things sound great in theory, but I've found the OS X interface to be terrible execution of usability in practice. Expose looks cool, but when you have too many windows open, you can't even see what window is what.Beryl's Scale is much better than Apples Expose. Scale has 3 modes (customizable, of course): scale all applications mode, scale all current viewport applications mode, scale all parts of an application mode (for example, it would scale all GIMP windows only).

1. Cmd-Q is universal for quitting applications. In both Windows and Linux, there's no consistent way to exit applications. Sometimes you just Control-W. Sometimes you Control-Q. Sometimes you Alt-F, X. Other times, you need to Alt-F4.Beryl allows you to assign buttons to every option that Beryl does, including quit. I have a system wide quit bound to CTRL+Q. Works with every single application because it is controlled by the WM. You can bind to keyboard, mouse and even screen. For example, I have two Scale modes enabled, one by touching top-right and the other bottom-left of screen. It is amazing how quickly you can switch between applications with something like this.
2. Expose is really cool if you have only six or seven application windows open.Scale works with more than six or seven application windows because of the three modes offered. In addition, there is a Grouping plugin that you can use to group applications and windows together. And there is the Window Attributes plugin that allows you to set window attributes of any application. Once you set it, the application will always have that special attribute assigned to it.
3. Widgets allow you something like another desktop without switching "workspaces." I've not seen as clean an execution in Superkaramba or gDesklets.This could be possible within Beryl, but not as clean as you would like. How? Create an extra workspace for only "widgets" (applets) and place them on that workspace only. Then bind a key to quickly switch in and out of that workspace. Remember, Apple's way of doing this is by having an invisible workspace that appears when you hit a key but that has most functions disabled and only allows you to have "widgets" open on it.

And Beryl works even with old hardware (you may have to disable some of the really graphically intense effects). I use Beryl on an ATI card with 16mb RAM (using open source drivers).

Heck, with Beryl, I no longer have a real need for any of the trays except a launch bar and notification area. No task bar at all! Why, when you have Scale that shows you the applications content and makes choosing the right application easier.

[robin.com.au]

On a different topic:

We have these things called 'applets'. Do they function like system trays? So far I think they do. Note taking app, 'Tomboy' was a systray app but now it is an applet for GNOME. Maybe Klipper should be an applet. System Tray = Applet ?

I also question why alt+tab has to popup a new window in front of my screen, to show me things which already exist on my window list. Alt+tab should affect the window list directly, which I notice that gnome in edgy does, forming a black box around the selected item. But there are good reasons to have alt+tab to work the way it does, as a separate app, like switching between 2 recent apps.

Anyway I do not wanna focus on these issues at the moment, just throwing it out there.

[robin.com.au]

You should try Beryl......
I think aysiu would know quite a bit about Beryl already. I've been using it a lot as well and it's great, prettier than Aqua in a number of ways. BURN! But the argument here is not really about Aqua and Beryl. It's about whether there are better ways of handling the window list and system tray and maybe even the program launcher. So it really is about the 'idea' of OSX dock.

The scale doesn't really solve the many GIMP problem I think, cos it tiles everything, but its not a permanent effect, you get out of scale mode, and everything is cluttered again.

[qamelian]

Unfortunately, this is all a matter of taste and habits of use. Personally, if I wanted the functionality you describe, I'd be using a Mac instead of running Ubuntu. One of the reasons that I don't have a Mac is precisely because I don't like or want what you've described. It is counter-intuitive for me based on my work habits. Although, some folks might find it appealing, I don't and would not use it.

[robin.com.au]

Unfortunately I don't have money for a Mac.
Anyway these are 2 ideas I have for a windowlist + systray hybrid:

Lets use 3 opened Firefox windows as an example.

For a start, make each task button in the window list rearrangeable by dragging.
Each of the ideas below would have just 1 icon next to the Firefox button which can act as a system tray.

1. In the Window List, there will be 1 Firefox button with 3 segments, each segment representing each window. When you drag the button, you drag all 3 segments and the systray icon with it . This is for people who do not like grouping windows, but want things to be more 'grouped' together.

2. Same idea as current grouped windows except you can choose to just 'hover' your mouse over the Firefox button, and a list of 3 items can be chosen. Each item representing a window.

Here is what it might look like:
http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlist.png
http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlistb.png

[kvonb]

There are some good ideas here, but what I would like to see/be involved in is an entirely new way of doing things!

We (Linux) seem to be doing the Japanese thing, ie taking current technology/ideas and improving them, maybe we need to take an entirely different way of looking at the "desktop" as we know it.

I don't have the solution, just a feeling that there could be a far superior way of operating a "desktop".

If we could come up with something so revolutionary and innovative we would take the computing world by storm! Make MS Windows and Beryl et al look stone-age!

I agree with what has been said about redundancy and desktop clutter, it is one of my pet drives (have a look at some of my screenshots (http://wamrfixit.homeip.net:8000/edgy/screenshots/) for an example of my futile efforts).

Minimise clutter, maximise efficiency and make it beautiful at the same time.

Maybe start a new forum project for way-out ideas, who knows where it will go :-D.

Regards, KEv :)

[robin.com.au]

There are some good ideas here, but what I would like to see/be involved in is an entirely new way of doing things!
...
I don't have the solution, just a feeling that there could be a far superior way of operating a "desktop".

If we could come up with something so revolutionary and innovative we would take the computing world by storm! Make MS Windows and Beryl et al look stone-age!

I agree with what has been said about redundancy and desktop clutter,...
Minimise clutter, maximise efficiency and make it beautiful at the same time.

Yes, I do feel that way as well, that there HAS to be a better and cleaner way to manage windows. Or something different/unique to make things interesting. Apple has done it, but as you can see in this thread, there are people who dislike the idea Apple has about their OSX dock, and some people see its potential. That is why we can see several Linux imitations of the dock, kxdocker, kooldock, kiba-dock (requires beryl/compiz), adesklets, etc. But still I think it's not good enough to just poorly imitating it, I also would like to see something a bit different.

Developers have been making apps with ideas of window lists, system tray and program launcher, it is pretty much like a standard. Doing anything revolutionary, i think, developers would have to give up these ideas. That is just too much to ask, and could cause chaos. So for now, I think we should just keep these 3 ideas, but cleverly merge these into 1. So currently I got an idea, which merges the window list/taskbar and system tray/notification area, and as a program launcher maybe. Please look at the image I got in the starting post or somewhere on this page and tell me what you all think.

Maybe start a new forum project for way-out ideas, who knows where it will go :-D.

Sounds good, I wouldn't mind, but i'm afraid that such a forum may consist of many, maybe cool, but unneccessary ideas or consists of ideas that already exists but the poster does not know of it. I guess if there are moderators with open minds, it would be fine. May be a good idea.

[aysiu]

If you want a revolutionary desktop environment, check out Mezzo desktop, currently featured on SymphonyOS. In the meantime, I've seen very few complaints about the launcher/window list/system tray model. It seems to work for people, for two main reasons:

1. There's no such thing as intuitiveness in a vacuum. What's intuitive to people is often what they are used to, and people are used to the Windows model of window management.

2. We don't all think the way you do. Some of us like having launchers separate from window lists and system trays. Now what gets put into the system tray is another story. For example, my system tray right now has Klipper (which runs in the background) and Rhythmbox (which doesn't currently have a window list item, as it is also running in the background and not taking up space). However, in Windows, the system tray seems to fill up with just about every application and its brother...

The great thing about XFCE, KDE, Gnome, and other traditional models of window management (I'm using IceWM right now, which is also similar) is that you can take the window list off completely if you so desire (you can't do this in Windows as far as I know), and if screen real estate is precious to you, you can use multiple workspaces or desktops (four is the typical number).

Stop obsessing about OS X--its interface has many, many usability flaws. I threw it out to the other mods, and they all agreed your thread seems to be more about advertising OS X than proposing a real suggestion for improving Linux interfaces, so we're keeping it here for now.

Check out Mezzo. I think you'll find it interesting.

[robin.com.au]

Stop obsessing about OS X--its interface has many, many usability flaws.
...
I threw it out to the other mods, and they all agreed your thread seems to be more about advertising OS X than proposing a real suggestion for improving Linux interfaces, so we're keeping it here for now.

Please stop obsessing about OSX being very crap. Even I have a few good things to say about MS Windoze. I think it is a bad way to think, when people say, 'This is crap, forget about it, pretend it does not exist.' There are many who find that it's interface is clever and people who don't. I've stated my reasons, you've stated your reasons. Fair enough.

Now, through inspiration of the 'idea' of the dock, I've concocted something which could keep the ways of the system tray and window list but make them more uniformed. And this is what I came up with:

http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlist.png
http://www.robin.com.au/image/mywinlistb.png

As you can see, it is nothing like the dock. I do not want ANOTHER osx dock imitation, people are already doing it. I want something which cleans up the GUI.

The purpose of this thread, is to raise question about parts of the Linux DE.
Then I use other DE's (which so happens to be OSX) as an example, and see how they tackle the questions that I've raised.
My intention was not to promote the dock, but rather find out WHY was the dock created. I saw the idea behind the dock, and it was to simplify the UI.

Taking that idea (not the dock), I introduce something 'extra' which MAY benefit the Linux DE GUI. Giving more choice to the users. Linux is about choice right? So in the end, it is about LINUX!! NOT osx. So therefore this thread does not belong in this OSX forum.

So what I got, are the images above.


Check out Mezzo. I think you'll find it interesting.

I've checked out Mezzo quite a while ago already. It is interesting. News about it has died down though. I may check out how it is up to.

[aysiu]

robin.com.au has continued the discussion in this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=320315) without all the "look at how great OS X's dock" talk.