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boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 10:19 PM
Before browsing this forum I had no idea that women made up such a small percentage of users and of those who do, most seem to be using it because of their partner. Is this a reflection of the larger trend of males dominating the computer world? Is this why it is so difficult to find funny science/tech-y shirts that will actually fit me and not look like a smock?

I came into Ubuntu as pretty much a total outsider and newbie. I set it all up and got everything working, no dual boot or anything I just took that leap of faith and have it on my desktop and laptop. Any problems I figured out with help from the forums and I'm proud of that. So why do I still feel uneasy that I'm suddenly in the minority? apparently a really tiny one?

IYY
November 27th, 2006, 10:30 PM
You shouldn't feel uneasy but rather proud, but the lack of female GNU/Linux users is indeed a problem. It's not just Ubuntu, but all distros that suffer from this trend. The problem is the same in computer science and engineering departments at most universities, espeically in North America.

It's interesting how once, a long time ago, computer science was the field with the highest female:male ratio in universities. Nowdays, it's probably the smallest.

I guess the problem could come from the fact that women seem to dislike fields that have to do with anything technical: cars, engineering, computers... I don't know why they do this, because women are just as capable as men in those fields, but that's the way things are. It's possible that society is to blame: boys are given toy cars, robots and legos whereas girls are given barbies and pink ponies.

Henry Rayker
November 27th, 2006, 10:45 PM
I don't think it stops at what kinds of toys boys and girls play with as children; I think society's perception of females who are interested in mechanics, computers and the like are partly to blame as well.

My girlfriend is an engineering major and when she tells people that, they act kind of shocked or surprised; I think some women feel uncomfortable with this kind of attention. It seems like girls hate being singled out or to be told they are in the "weird" minority..

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 10:51 PM
I know I shouldn't feel uneasy, but it's kind of disturbing to think that less than 5% of users are women when I'm sure computer users in general are way more representative of populations.
Would you say then that Linux's perceived technicality is the main deterent? and if so, why are men way more willing to overcome this challenge? I don't think it's so simple that women dislike technical fields per se. There's something else, and I don't what it is.

matthew
November 27th, 2006, 10:56 PM
Before browsing this forum I had no idea that women made up such a small percentage of users and of those who do, most seem to be using it because of their partner. Is this a reflection of the larger trend of males dominating the computer world? Is this why it is so difficult to find funny science/tech-y shirts that will actually fit me and not look like a smock?

I came into Ubuntu as pretty much a total outsider and newbie. I set it all up and got everything working, no dual boot or anything I just took that leap of faith and have it on my desktop and laptop. Any problems I figured out with help from the forums and I'm proud of that. So why do I still feel uneasy that I'm suddenly in the minority? apparently a really tiny one?I wish I knew. If you think of any ideas that might help you and other ladies feel as welcome as we truly wish for you to feel please let me/us know.

If nothing else, at least know I'm glad you're here.

Henry Rayker
November 27th, 2006, 11:01 PM
I think it has to do with a lot of factors.

The prime deterrant for new users (of either gender) is likely to be the technological aspect of it.

As for what keeps women away, specifically: I'd say some of it is the fact that there are so few female users in the community. Some (I'd be willing to say most that I have come to know) women seem to feel uncomfortable going into an almost entirely male environment. So the problem is its own cause, to some effect.

Another thing I'd say is that, while computer users overall should be better distributed, I think the amount of women at higher levels of computer knowledge drop off. On average, the males I've known have been more knowledgeable about computers than the females.

One reason why males seem to overcome the challenge could be that men are more impulsive. I would say that, of my closer friends, I am the most computer literate, however, I've completely destroyed my system far more times than they have. It seems to be a sort of bathtub curve. The people who have crashed their system the least have the most "average" amount of knowledge. The ones below that level of understanding crash their computers more (due to viruses) and those above crash more (due to experimentation).

EDIT: I feel the same as matthew. If anything can make more women feel better about their presence here, let us know. I'm glad that at least some are able to overcome the fear and step into something new.

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:05 PM
I wish I knew. If you think of any ideas that might help you and other ladies feel as welcome as we truly wish for you to feel please let me/us know.

If nothing else, at least know I'm glad you're here.

The funny thing is, I do feel welcomed. Even the cheesy people in the promo material made me feel welcomed.

matthew
November 27th, 2006, 11:11 PM
The funny thing is, I do feel welcomed. Even the cheesy people in the promo material made me feel welcomed.That's encouraging as is your willingness to just jump in and try things. I think you have every right to be proud of yourself (and not because you're a woman, but because of the sense of accomplishment that comes from embracing and figuring out complex stuff). If you keep this up you might just find yourself loving it so much around here that you go from a brand-new neophyte user to an apprentice helping other newcomers with problems you have already learned to solve, and next thing you know you're staff or something...well, that's my story anyway. :)

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:16 PM
I think it has to do with a lot of factors.

The prime deterrant for new users (of either gender) is likely to be the technological aspect of it.

As for what keeps women away, specifically: I'd say some of it is the fact that there are so few female users in the community. Some (I'd be willing to say most that I have come to know) women seem to feel uncomfortable going into an almost entirely male environment. So the problem is its own cause, to some effect.

Another thing I'd say is that, while computer users overall should be better distributed, I think the amount of women at higher levels of computer knowledge drop off. On average, the males I've known have been more knowledgeable about computers than the females.

One reason why males seem to overcome the challenge could be that men are more impulsive. I would say that, of my closer friends, I am the most computer literate, however, I've completely destroyed my system far more times than they have. It seems to be a sort of bathtub curve. The people who have crashed their system the least have the most "average" amount of knowledge. The ones below that level of understanding crash their computers more (due to viruses) and those above crash more (due to experimentation).

EDIT: I feel the same as matthew. If anything can make more women feel better about their presence here, let us know. I'm glad that at least some are able to overcome the fear and step into something new.

hmmm... all of my male tech-savvy friends and relatives (save for my 12 year old cousin who thought it was really cool and was really excited by the stickers that came with the cds i ordered) discouraged me greatly from using linux.
Maybe the male-impulsiveness has something to do with it, but are men 95% more impulsive than women? I still feel like there's this black box that i'm really curious about. Maybe I'll be a super nerd and talk to a prof and make this a research project.

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:19 PM
That's encouraging as is your willingness to just jump in and try things. I think you have every right to be proud of yourself (and not because you're a woman, but because of the sense of accomplishment that comes from embracing and figuring out complex stuff). If you keep this up you might just find yourself loving it so much around here that you go from a brand-new neophyte user to an apprentice helping other newcomers with problems you have already learned to solve, and next thing you know you're staff or something...well, that's my story anyway. :)

hahahahaha we'll see, we'll see. thanks for the vote of support.

zcal
November 27th, 2006, 11:24 PM
You could place some of the blame on marketing. Seems to me that a lot of marketing directed towards women shuns any form of "tech". As a lot of girls begin to play into the image of what a woman "should" be in middle and high school, sometimes solely for the purpose of fitting in with their peers, it's possible that they're just not as likely to encounter something like Linux as an interest until they're over the phase (if they ever get over it). That being the case, it's often tough to take such an endeavor in the computing world when you've already entered the workforce and have other responsibilities to take care of. Who has time to mess around with another operating system, especially when your knowledge of computers is mostly limited to AIM and Windows Media Player. It's easier just to continue with what you've already gotten used to.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people establish their interests as they're younger, and if you didn't really do anything with computers as a youngster, well then how are you going to learn now? Obviously this isn't a rule, but it seems reasonable to me.

Hey, I dunno about others' experiences, but for me, I'd say it was pretty taboo in high school for girls to be into computers unless they were talking with their friends on AIM. You can be sporty, sexy,or booky but computers are just another one of boys' toys. It keeps women out of the community, unfortunately. Too bad. :(

P.S.- I'm trying to convince my girlfriend to try Ubuntu, especially since Windows XP is completely gunked up on her laptop and I'd need to reinstall and tweak a lot of things to get her back on solid ground. She's especially terrified of Linux, thinking it's "too hard". Hey, all she wants is to surf the net, watch DVDs, and type papers. How hard can that be? Well, XP isn't handling it very well, so I'm trying to baby her in to Ubuntu with a Shipit CD so it looks more official, then I'll explain Synaptic to her and show her how she can customize Gnome and make it look just like she wants. Anyway, I keep thinking to myself that maybe I shouldn't do it and just fix Windows for her, but then I have to remember that her technical knowledge of Windows is zilch as well. So why should Ubuntu be any harder? It's not like she'll be comparing the innards of the filesystem or whining about the fact that she can't play games that work on Windows. Point is, I think she's in the same boat as a lot of young women. She's used the computer for years, typing things for school and using PowerPoint and AIM and whatnot, but that's where her interest has stopped. If it wasn't for me pointing it out to her, the only alternative to Windows would be buying a Mac. :rolleyes:

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:33 PM
You could place some of the blame on marketing. Seems to me that a lot of marketing directed towards women shuns any form of "tech". As a lot of girls begin to play into the image of what a woman "should" be in middle and high school, sometimes solely for the purpose of fitting in with their peers, it's possible that they're just not as likely to encounter something like Linux as an interest until they're over the phase (if they ever get over it). That being the case, it's often tough to take such an endeavor in the computing world when you've already entered the workforce and have other responsibilities to take care of. Who has time to mess around with another operating system, especially when your knowledge of computers is mostly limited to AIM and Windows Media Player. It's easier just to continue with what you've already gotten used to.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people establish their interests as they're younger, and if you didn't really do anything with computers as a youngster, well then how are you going to learn now? Obviously this isn't a rule, but it seems reasonable to me.

Hey, I dunno about others' experiences, but for me, I'd say it was pretty taboo in high school for girls to be into computers unless they were talking with their friends on AIM. You can be sporty, sexy,or booky but computers are just another one of boys' toys. It keeps women out of the community, unfortunately. Too bad. :(

P.S.- I'm trying to convince my girlfriend to try Ubuntu, especially since Windows XP is completely gunked up on her laptop and I'd need to reinstall and tweak a lot of things to get her back on solid ground. She's especially terrified of Linux, thinking it's "too hard". Hey, all she wants is to surf the net, watch DVDs, and type papers. How hard can that be? Well, XP isn't handling it very well, so I'm trying to baby her in to Ubuntu with a Shipit CD so it looks more official, then I'll explain Synaptic to her and show her how she can customize Gnome and make it look just like she wants. Anyway, I keep thinking to myself that maybe I shouldn't do it and just fix Windows for her, but then I have to remember that her technical knowledge of Windows is zilch as well. So why should Ubuntu be any harder? It's not like she'll be comparing the innards of the filesystem or whining about the fact that she can't play games that work on Windows. Point is, I think she's in the same boat as a lot of young women. She's used the computer for years, typing things for school and using PowerPoint and AIM and whatnot, but that's where her interest has stopped. If it wasn't for me pointing it out to her, the only alternative to Windows would be buying a Mac. :rolleyes:

I've always had a computer in the house, so yes, I'v never been afraid of them (or afraid of breaking them). Ubuntu I've found to be super easy and with the step by steps in the forums, it's been easier for me to fix things in Ubuntu than in XP. Plus, it just looks and works and feels better for the necessities. XP and Mac I've found to be really crowded. I'm positive that your girlfriend will like Ubuntu much better because it really is the opposite of difficult and she has you to blame everything on.

Henry Rayker
November 27th, 2006, 11:35 PM
My girlfriend uses Ubuntu just about all the time, now. She was worried about it being hard, but I did the installation. If things need compiled, I do it. She has to dual boot for a couple applications, but that's about all.

I figured I can teach her that stuff a little later. After about a week, she thanked me for encouraging her; she likes it better, it performs faster and she doesn't have to pay for software.

Another barrier to female adoption could have something to do with the kinds of webpages and forums that females tend to read. I know that, had it not been for forums and webpages and the like pointing me toward it, I wouldn't have found linux. The cause could be completely away from linux, in that respect.

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:39 PM
My girlfriend uses Ubuntu just about all the time, now. She was worried about it being hard, but I did the installation. If things need compiled, I do it. She has to dual boot for a couple applications, but that's about all.

I figured I can teach her that stuff a little later. After about a week, she thanked me for encouraging her; she likes it better, it performs faster and she doesn't have to pay for software.

Another barrier to female adoption could have something to do with the kinds of webpages and forums that females tend to read. I know that, had it not been for forums and webpages and the like pointing me toward it, I wouldn't have found linux. The cause could be completely away from linux, in that respect.

Yah, just getting the word out beyond the internet and into mainstream tv and print is pretty slow. But I heard that the French government is moving to Linux so that's a step in the right direction.

zcal
November 27th, 2006, 11:40 PM
and she has you to blame everything on.

Ha, ain't that the truth! I'm making a bet with myself that she'll actually have less problems than with XP, as the updates are much easier to deal with in Ubuntu and I know it won't fall victim to spyware and viruses. It ought to be less maintenance and more usefulness.

boredom_amused
November 27th, 2006, 11:41 PM
Ha, ain't that the truth! I'm making a bet with myself that she'll actually have less problems than with XP, as the updates are much easier to deal with in Ubuntu and I know it won't fall victim to spyware and viruses. It ought to be less maintenance and more usefulness.

it is for me!

calx
November 28th, 2006, 12:35 AM
Try here for tshirts http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/. My girlfriend (also an ubuntress) has one that says "Talk nerdy to me". :)

Kristen Lucas
November 28th, 2006, 01:43 AM
Before browsing this forum I had no idea that women made up such a small percentage of users and of those who do, most seem to be using it because of their partner. Is this a reflection of the larger trend of males dominating the computer world? Is this why it is so difficult to find funny science/tech-y shirts that will actually fit me and not look like a smock?

I came into Ubuntu as pretty much a total outsider and newbie. I set it all up and got everything working, no dual boot or anything I just took that leap of faith and have it on my desktop and laptop. Any problems I figured out with help from the forums and I'm proud of that. So why do I still feel uneasy that I'm suddenly in the minority? apparently a really tiny one?

I'm a woman a develper of KDE.

Darrious
November 28th, 2006, 02:23 AM
Actually the first programmers were women. :mrgreen:

fatsheep
November 28th, 2006, 02:40 AM
Actually the first programmers were women. :mrgreen:

Really? If you've got any more detailed info I would be interested. :KS

K.Mandla
November 28th, 2006, 02:54 AM
Really? If you've got any more detailed info I would be interested. :KS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper


While she was working on a Mark II Computer at Harvard University, her associates discovered a moth stuck in a relay and thereby impeding operation, whereupon she remarked that they were "debugging" the system. Though the term computer bug cannot be definitively attributed to Admiral Hopper, she did bring the term into popularity. The remains of the moth can be found in the group's log book at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of American History in Washington, D.C..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H96566k.jpg

lapsey
November 28th, 2006, 04:16 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_Hopper


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:H96566k.jpg

see that and raise you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace


During a nine-month period in 1842-1843, Ada translated Italian mathematician Luigi Menabrea's memoir on Babbage's newest proposed machine, the Analytical Engine. With the article, she appended a set of notes which specified in complete detail a method for calculating Bernoulli numbers with the Engine, recognized by historians as the world's first computer program.

boredom_amused
November 28th, 2006, 06:21 AM
Try here for tshirts http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/. My girlfriend (also an ubuntress) has one that says "Talk nerdy to me". :)

They don't make available all the shirt designs that I like... like the Chem one in the Science section about Johnny and the H2SO4 joke. :(

boredom_amused
November 28th, 2006, 06:24 AM
I'm a woman a develper of KDE.

yayyyyy!

Circus-Killer
November 28th, 2006, 06:37 AM
if it's any consolation, i think geek chicks are sexy.

hmmmm......maybe that's why they pretend not be geeks....... :-?

boredom_amused
November 28th, 2006, 07:32 AM
if it's any consolation, i think geek chicks are sexy.

hmmmm......maybe that's why they pretend not be geeks....... :-?

haahahahahaha

Mimsy
November 28th, 2006, 07:56 AM
I wish I knew. If you think of any ideas that might help you and other ladies feel as welcome as we truly wish for you to feel please let me/us know.

Here's an idea for you; it's very unorthodox, but it might actually help: Don't make such a big deal out of me being a woman.

It would help me. :)

I'm used to being the gender minority. I do martial arts, I'm a videogamer and table-top roleplayer, I love sports, mainly basketball (see my avatar for proof) and college football, and I always follow my SO to his weekly pokergame and I usually do pretty well. I never really care that I'm a woman and the rest of the group isn't; we're a group of people getting together, who all have an interest in this one thing, be it karate, the last football game of the season, or the thrill of flopping the nut straight.

Likewise, I'm intersted in Ubuntu, I like having it on my laptop, I love playing around with it and tweaking things, and I enjoy the fact that WinXP still works so well on my desktop PC that it can play all my games on it. Gender doesn't have anything to do with any of this, or at least it shouldn't. It bothers me when people are so narrowminded and prejudiced that they can't see beyond male and female, and when they through that inability avoid certain interests and/or places, or exclude people who could add a lot to the overall fun of the night, just because they are men or women. It seems short-sighted to me.

/Mimsy

matthew
November 28th, 2006, 09:40 AM
Here's an idea for you; it's very unorthodox, but it might actually help: Don't make such a big deal out of me being a woman.

It would help me. :)
Wait! You're a woman? :mrgreen:

I love the note as to why you edited your post...
Last edited by Mimsy : 1 Hour Ago at 06:56 AM. Reason: wet nailpolish + typing = dyslexia impersonation

bapoumba
November 28th, 2006, 01:18 PM
Hi everyone :)
I have commented elsewhere (http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=1765456&postcount=44) the small number of women in Linux communities in general. I am not sure how to handle quoting oneself here ... Anyway, I see it partly as a social issue.

What I do appreciate in this forum, is the staff's goal to have women feel at ease, taking care of useless comments, welcoming them with attention. And in general to have the largest population feel at ease, regardless of age, sex, politics or religion. This is one way to evolve out of the "jungle ages" where the strongest/toughest/largest number wins (not sure about how to say that in English, I hope you get my point ^^).

Organizing a large and fast growing community, still taking care of and promoting its minorities is not easy, I do know that.

As Mimsy stated, you get used to being the gender minority ;) I'm a biologist, I'm in french academia, I've hit several times what we call the "glass ceiling", un invisible limit that stops you because you're a minority (and not just because you are a women ;)). I am not an militant, I do not strongly support affirmative actions, for example, as I believe that anybody should be able to accomplish what he/she likes to regardless of his/her social group. But, hey, we do not live in a perfect world. Thank you for helping the Ubuntu spirit spread among this community, and possibly "To Infinity and Beyond" ;)

hk_2999
November 28th, 2006, 02:17 PM
IVE FOUND OUT THE SOLUTION TO WHY WOMEN IN UBUNTU SEEMS LACKING!

Lack of pink and other feminine themes ( and wallpapers )! :)
I say we should include them by default and ask at install if the majority of users would be either male, female or neutral!

tribaal
November 28th, 2006, 02:27 PM
Hehehe I doubt it's only a matter of color... unfortunately :)

- trib'

Circus-Killer
November 28th, 2006, 02:32 PM
i don't think its an ubuntu-specific problem, but i do have faith that as ubuntu takes over as the leading operating system, so the ratio between men and women will improve.

meital
November 28th, 2006, 04:12 PM
IVE FOUND OUT THE SOLUTION TO WHY WOMEN IN UBUNTU SEEMS LACKING!

Lack of pink and other feminine themes ( and wallpapers )! :)
I say we should include them by default and ask at install if the majority of users would be either male, female or neutral!
Pink is really nice and everything, but it shouldn't be the main solution. (although I really like pink :)). The real problem is to bring women to use linux and ubuntu, so they'll be able to see the pink, and it can't be done with colors. Women should feel like they are mentally able to cope with both the installation process and the use of ubuntu, because they can.
Males should stop treating women like they are stupid, because they aren't.
Also, the society doesn't really like women who use linux and computers "more than usual". They think it's weird, and it's a big problem.

About shirts for women, you can find it in cafepress http://www.cafepress.com/

So to conclude, the main cause of lake of women using ubuntu is the society, you can change it by telling women you know about linux and helping(!!!) them to install ubuntu. DO NOT INSTALL IT ALONE! HELP THEM TO INSTALL IT, BUT LET THEM DO IT! and pink things will be nice :mrgreen:

hk_2999
November 28th, 2006, 04:49 PM
Pink is really nice and everything, but it shouldn't be the main solution. (although I really like pink :)). The real problem is to bring women to use linux and ubuntu, so they'll be able to see the pink, and it can't be done with colors. Women should feel like they are mentally able to cope with both the installation process and the use of ubuntu, because they can.
Males should stop treating women like they are stupid, because they aren't.
Also, the society doesn't really like women who use linux and computers "more than usual". They think it's weird, and it's a big problem.

About shirts for women, you can find it in cafepress http://www.cafepress.com/

So to conclude, the main cause of lake of women using ubuntu is the society, you can change it by telling women you know about linux and helping(!!!) them to install ubuntu. DO NOT INSTALL IT ALONE! HELP THEM TO INSTALL IT, BUT LET THEM DO IT! and pink things will be nice :mrgreen:

Agreed. :)

And they also need to know the benefits of using ubuntu, like better security and they should also know that the linux community cares.

I think this problem sprung up because the linux maintainers of old, are mostly male programmers who 'initiate' newcomers with all sorts of problems and use RTFM as their welcoming sign, but at these times of ubuntu and human rights - these initiations are not good any more.

But if you think about it, whatever sex would use ubuntu would have trouble until we make an ultimate manual which covers everything from apt-get to zip. The same kind of manual they use in commercial software, it would give individuals something to depend on while using the ware but the real problem would lie on how to write that manual. Maybe as an open-source document project?

hk_2999
November 28th, 2006, 04:52 PM
IVE FOUND OUT THE SOLUTION TO WHY WOMEN IN UBUNTU SEEMS LACKING!

Lack of pink and other feminine themes ( and wallpapers )! :)
I say we should include them by default and ask at install if the majority of users would be either male, female or neutral!

I forgot lesbians, gay and bisexuals! ugh!

See, ladies, you are not the minority of people using ubuntu, think of the other sexes out there, aphrodites too perhaps.

Mimsy
November 28th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Are you serious? Pink is a hideous color!

Oh, and women can be male. "Male" and "female" are concept consctructs, a set of norms about how men and women are supposed to behave and what they are supposed to like and do. It's socially constructed, which means what is considered feminine in one culture may not necessarily be feminine in another. It is in other words possible to go from being a female woman to being a male one by moving to another country. Biological sex is what we're born with, gender is just something we learn as we grow up; and there is a big difference between the two. What the connection between them are, and why women tend to be mare female than men, that is a topic for another thread entirely.

One of many soapbox issues one develops as a Communiation Major. :)

/Mimsy

Henry Rayker
November 28th, 2006, 05:02 PM
I'm a male and the theme I've used in windows was pink (light powdery pink and a darker mauve sort of pink)...I used that theme for at least 2 years...

nursegirl
November 28th, 2006, 08:19 PM
In the past, I'd tried a couple linux distros, and usually gave up more because of the communities than the technical details. If I need help to figure something out, I don't want to be treated like a "stupid woman." Particularly because I know that I'm not stupid, even if I'm not a technical whiz kid.

The Ubuntu forums were what sold me on Ubuntu. I lurked for three or four weeks before I did my first install. This is definitely the most female-friendly distro that I've found. Mostly because it's the most person-friendly distro I've found.

K.Mandla
November 28th, 2006, 08:53 PM
see that and raise you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_Lovelace
:biggrin: The list is long and distinguished ...

Edith Clarke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith_Clarke)

"In her spare time, she invented the Clarke calculator. ... The device could solve line equations involving hyperbolic functions ten times faster than previous methods."
Rózsa Péter (http://http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Biographies/Peter.html)

"Péter was the author of Playing with Infinity ... the second Hungarian mathematical book to be published in the Soviet Union because its subject matter was considered indispensable to the theory of computers."
Alexandra Illmer Forsythe (http://www.bookrags.com/biography/alexandra-illmer-forsythe-wcs/)

"Alexandra Illmer Forsythe is best known for a series of several books on computing and computer science, although she was also a good mathematician and computer programmer in her own right." (I think I remember her book ... oops, I just dated myself :roll: )
Evelyn Boyd Granville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evelyn_Boyd_Granville)

"The second African-American woman in the U.S. to receive a PhD in mathematics. ..." ... "From 1956 to 1960, she worked for IBM on the Project Vanguard and Project Mercury space programs, analyzing orbits and developing computer procedures. ..."
Margaret R. Fox (http://www.smartcomputing.com/editorial/dictionary/detail.asp?guid=&searchtype=&DicID=18118&RefType=Encyclopedia)

"From 1966 to 1975 Fox was chief of the Office of Computer Information in the NBS Institute for Computer Science and Technology."
Erna Schneider Hoover (http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blhoover.htm)

"In 1954, after teaching for a number of years at Swarthmore College, she began a research career at Bell Laboratories. While there, she invented a computerized switching system for telephone traffic, to replace existing hard-wired, mechanical switching equipment. ..." In other words, your modem works in part because of Erna Schneider Hoover. ;)

Kay McNulty Mauchly Antonelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Antonelli)

"One of the six original programmers of the ENIAC, the first general-purpose electronic digital computer."
I'll stop there. Those are just some early ones and there are too many more to keep listing them. ;)

maddog39
November 28th, 2006, 09:14 PM
You could place some of the blame on marketing. Seems to me that a lot of marketing directed towards women shuns any form of "tech". As a lot of girls begin to play into the image of what a woman "should" be in middle and high school, sometimes solely for the purpose of fitting in with their peers, it's possible that they're just not as likely to encounter something like Linux as an interest until they're over the phase (if they ever get over it). That being the case, it's often tough to take such an endeavor in the computing world when you've already entered the workforce and have other responsibilities to take care of. Who has time to mess around with another operating system, especially when your knowledge of computers is mostly limited to AIM and Windows Media Player. It's easier just to continue with what you've already gotten used to.

Anyway, I guess the point I'm trying to make is that a lot of people establish their interests as they're younger, and if you didn't really do anything with computers as a youngster, well then how are you going to learn now? Obviously this isn't a rule, but it seems reasonable to me.

Hey, I dunno about others' experiences, but for me, I'd say it was pretty taboo in high school for girls to be into computers unless they were talking with their friends on AIM. You can be sporty, sexy,or booky but computers are just another one of boys' toys. It keeps women out of the community, unfortunately. Too bad. :(

P.S.- I'm trying to convince my girlfriend to try Ubuntu, especially since Windows XP is completely gunked up on her laptop and I'd need to reinstall and tweak a lot of things to get her back on solid ground. She's especially terrified of Linux, thinking it's "too hard". Hey, all she wants is to surf the net, watch DVDs, and type papers. How hard can that be? Well, XP isn't handling it very well, so I'm trying to baby her in to Ubuntu with a Shipit CD so it looks more official, then I'll explain Synaptic to her and show her how she can customize Gnome and make it look just like she wants. Anyway, I keep thinking to myself that maybe I shouldn't do it and just fix Windows for her, but then I have to remember that her technical knowledge of Windows is zilch as well. So why should Ubuntu be any harder? It's not like she'll be comparing the innards of the filesystem or whining about the fact that she can't play games that work on Windows. Point is, I think she's in the same boat as a lot of young women. She's used the computer for years, typing things for school and using PowerPoint and AIM and whatnot, but that's where her interest has stopped. If it wasn't for me pointing it out to her, the only alternative to Windows would be buying a Mac. :rolleyes:
Hahaha, well macs are definetly better and a crap load more easy to use than windows or linux (I know a lot of you would probably disagree but whatever). I've been unix based for like 4-5 years now since I got my powerbook after being fed-up with windoze BS. But there is that saying in the Linux world, "Women don't like linux," and I personally dont really think it's true, I think they're just blind to it, meaning alot of women don't have a clue what linux is. Until of course some guy points it out to them. Thats how it seems to me. Maybe if ubuntu were more publicized it might make the difference.

fatsheep
November 28th, 2006, 10:03 PM
Hahaha, well macs are definetly better and a crap load more easy to use than windows or linux (I know a lot of you would probably disagree but whatever). I've been unix based for like 4-5 years now since I got my powerbook after being fed-up with windoze BS. But there is that saying in the Linux world, "Women don't like linux," and I personally dont really think it's true, I think they're just blind to it, meaning alot of women don't have a clue what linux is. Until of course some guy points it out to them. Thats how it seems to me. Maybe if ubuntu were more publicized it might make the difference.

I would say many people think "Linux is not for technical users". This obviously isn't true. While there are distros like slackware and gentoo that target technical users (mostly programmers it seems...), Linux doesn't have to be like that. Ubuntu proves this in my opinion. The "Women don't like Linux" and "Women don't like computers" idea is a problem a lot bigger then the Ubuntu community. It's a society problem. Society says women should use AIM, Email, and maybe do some word processing for school and that's it. I don't think they are blind to Linux, they just looked strangely opon by society for getting into computers and so they never really get a chance to hear about Linux.

Anyways I really hope this is changing, I hate it when society is out to tell people what to do...

falkenberg_cph
November 28th, 2006, 10:04 PM
You can do it :D

Mimsy
November 28th, 2006, 11:33 PM
The "Women don't like Linux" and "Women don't like computers" idea is a problem a lot bigger then the Ubuntu community. It's a society problem. Society says women should use AIM, Email, and maybe do some word processing for school and that's it. I don't think they are blind to Linux, they just looked strangely opon by society for getting into computers and so they never really get a chance to hear about Linux.

Every time someone tells me that, I remember that family dinner when my SO's mother told him about all the issues her computer was having (caused by WinXp, Norton AV, no firewall, ignorant users... you get the idea) and how much it frustrated her, so she asked him if he could fix it for her again, like he did last year, and he shrugged and said, "Actually, you should ask Mimsy about that. She's a lot better at these things than I am, and she likes messing with computers."

Facial expressions around the table were priceless. :mrgreen:

I like my family-in-law for not making a big deal out of "oh, it's so great that a woman knows her way around computers!"

Sometimes I think the over-whelming entusiasm of society when women do get into technical fields serves to frighten away the ones who just want to make casual visits, rather than take up residency.

/Mimsy

zcal
November 28th, 2006, 11:49 PM
Hahaha, well macs are definetly better and a crap load more easy to use than windows or linux (I know a lot of you would probably disagree but whatever).

Well I told her she should get an iBook when she was in the market for a laptop, but she let her dad and uncle talk her into a Dell instead because Windows is "more compatible". Ironically, if she likes Ubuntu, she'll end up using something even "less compatible" than Mac OS X. :rolleyes:

K.Mandla
November 28th, 2006, 11:57 PM
I like my family-in-law for not making a big deal out of "oh, it's so great that a woman knows her way around computers!"

Sometimes I think the over-whelming entusiasm of society when women do get into technical fields serves to frighten away the ones who just want to make casual visits, rather than take up residency.
A very valid point, and yet it seems to me that "taking note when a woman goes into a technical field" is what eventually leads to "not making a big deal" out of it. After a while, public consciousness becomes acclimatized to the idea, and we no longer have discussions like these. :mrgreen:

Mimsy
November 29th, 2006, 12:10 AM
True enough. After all, I want to be acknowledged as good at whatever it is I do, be it repairing a broken Windows installlation or graduating from college in a male-dominated field. I just don't want more acknowledgement and enthusiasm than you would give a guy, because then it begins to look condescending... as if you're not yet over the shocked surprise that a girl could clean out the registry and optimise it for performance. :)

As always, the trick is in finding the magic middle ground.

/Mimsy

livinginx
November 29th, 2006, 10:08 AM
Don't want to re-route the the thread, but are there any ways that you think could help make women more aware of Ubuntu?

I am a guy, run a Counter-Strike clan and have at least 2 or 3 women in it. And I was thinking about adding a blurb about Ubuntu on the front page of the site and a spot in the forum, but it would be nice if there would be a way that would draw everyones attention to it.

I think what we all need to do is post at least one post about Ubuntu on every forum we belong to :-)

hk_2999
November 29th, 2006, 12:09 PM
I'm a male and the theme I've used in windows was pink (light powdery pink and a darker mauve sort of pink)...I used that theme for at least 2 years...

Really? Could you put a link of that wallpaper? I'm a male-type guy(duh!) and we have a saying here that 'tough guys wear pink', but to be honest I kind of like that color. In fact my last wallpaper shamefully (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/42840311/), was pink and it lasted 2 months.

Which reminds me, most of the people at my class ( computer engineering ) are female. Not really most but about 1:1 ratio with males. But I think they're on for Windows because most of the money is there - and they can catch their boyfriend's attention when the PCs need maintenance :o.

DoctorMO
November 29th, 2006, 12:43 PM
Oh, and women can be male. "Male" and "female" are concept consctructs, a set of norms about how men and women are supposed to behave and what they are supposed to like and do. It's socially constructed, which means what is considered feminine in one culture may not necessarily be feminine in another. It is in other words possible to go from being a female woman to being a male one by moving to another country. Biological sex is what we're born with, gender is just something we learn as we grow up; and there is a big difference between the two. What the connection between them are, and why women tend to be mare female than men, that is a topic for another thread entirely.

Sex - Male, Female... etc defined as physical differences.
Gender - Masculine, Feminine and all shades defined as social differences.

Woman - A social class of Adult Female Feminine roll.

If we are talking about Women then it automaticly implies the social construct (rightly or wrongly) as well as the physical one as well as the adult roll.

Interestingly there are no words for mentaly female but male and mentaly male but female (brain structure as aponse to social rolls)

Back on subject, the lack of women could be anything. the best we can do is be open, welcoming and respecting to everybody regardless of their properties and if we can have selective amnesia about social rolls that wouldn't hurt.

Henry Rayker
November 29th, 2006, 04:08 PM
Really? Could you put a link of that wallpaper? I'm a male-type guy(duh!) and we have a saying here that 'tough guys wear pink', but to be honest I kind of like that color. In fact my last wallpaper shamefully (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/42840311/), was pink and it lasted 2 months.

I don't have a shot of the desktop while it was in use (I've since changed it around) but I think I can scrounge up a link to the wallpaper..here we are (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/5517227)

daynah
November 30th, 2006, 05:30 PM
Man I WISH my boyfriend used Ubuntu. Instead, he calls me a "linux elitist" and it's one of those things we used to get in a fight about all the time. No worries, he said I was a snob about everything. Until I pointed out as he was out snobbing me over the fact that I didn't know what happened in a certain blah blah in a certain comic that was obviously classic and if I knew anything about comics... I'm off topic.

He's not switching to Linux one way or the other, and I've given up the battle. He pushes video onto his tv ALL the time. Like...two tv shows a day off of his computer... so that's just not going to work. And he's got an ATI card and... it just wont work. But some good has come out of it, he is going to switch to Mac! All my talk about security flaws and unreliability and then suddenly his computer got zerg rushed and... yeah, he's saving up right now.

windows < mac < linux. Baby steps. Soon he will see the light. Unless he googles my name and see this post. Then we will be broken up.

Henry Rayker
November 30th, 2006, 05:41 PM
Unless he googles my name and see this post. Then we will be broken up.

I'm sorry, but that made me laugh pretty hard.

daynah
November 30th, 2006, 05:53 PM
I'm sorry, but that made me laugh pretty hard.

;) He'll bend to my will soon enough.

DoctorMO
November 30th, 2006, 06:05 PM
Honestly I was having the same issues, It felt as if my other half was just being bloody funny about trying Linux but at the end of the day I felt she was reacting to my pressure and it wouldn't matter what the subject was.

Ultimately she's neutral and thus she will use what ever has the benefits at the time. which is fine so long as I'm never told what I must do.

Mimsy
November 30th, 2006, 06:40 PM
I have a similar situation with my SO. He doesn't really care what's on his computer as long as it works and can do what he wants it to do. Since he wants to play games on it Ubuntu is not really an option, which is fine. As long as he doesn't interfere with what I do with my laptop, why should I try to force him to change/switch operating systems on his PC just for the sake of doing it?

He did like the clean desktop, when he borrowed my laptop on our Thanksgiving roadtrip, and he seemed impressed at how fast and how stable Ubuntu was on my old machine.

Baby steps, baby steps... :)
/Mimsy

Henry Rayker
November 30th, 2006, 06:52 PM
My girlfriend is the same. She doesn't care what OS she uses, as long as it does what she needs. She likes Ubuntu's cleanliness and only needs M$ for one app (freakin' Google Sketchup or whatever...) She uses Ubuntu, for the most part, and seems incredibly happy with it. Her only complaint, so far, was that she couldn't highlight and drag cells in oocalc...well, when I showed her that you can, you just don't get the same cursor, she was pleased once again :D

cendant
November 30th, 2006, 07:17 PM
windows < mac < linux. Baby steps. Soon he will see the light. Unless he googles my name and see this post. Then we will be broken up.

What is your telephone number?

Aleksandersen
November 30th, 2006, 07:36 PM
One of the girls in my class talked to me about getting a new notebook computer a few weeks ago. She wanted to know about Windows (well she said virus and spyware, but I figured she meant Windows) alternates.

I told here about Ubuntu, this community and that she could actually save a couple of bucks too (I figured all students like that part about free software).

She have not ordered here self a notebook yet, but she has played a lot with the Ubuntu Live CD at home. I will guess you will find here in her within a couple of weeks.

But I must say I was astonished when I learned how resourceful she had been and how able she where to figure out solutions to the problems she have met on here way to Linux...

:-k I guess girls can be computer geeks too?...

justin whitaker
November 30th, 2006, 07:49 PM
Here's an idea for you; it's very unorthodox, but it might actually help: Don't make such a big deal out of me being a woman.

It would help me. :)

I'm used to being the gender minority. I do martial arts, I'm a videogamer and table-top roleplayer, I love sports, mainly basketball (see my avatar for proof) and college football, and I always follow my SO to his weekly pokergame and I usually do pretty well. I never really care that I'm a woman and the rest of the group isn't; we're a group of people getting together, who all have an interest in this one thing, be it karate, the last football game of the season, or the thrill of flopping the nut straight.

Likewise, I'm intersted in Ubuntu, I like having it on my laptop, I love playing around with it and tweaking things, and I enjoy the fact that WinXP still works so well on my desktop PC that it can play all my games on it. Gender doesn't have anything to do with any of this, or at least it shouldn't. It bothers me when people are so narrowminded and prejudiced that they can't see beyond male and female, and when they through that inability avoid certain interests and/or places, or exclude people who could add a lot to the overall fun of the night, just because they are men or women. It seems short-sighted to me.

/Mimsy

Mimsy, seems like you are missing one minority label: Linux Gamer. Come over to the Cedega/WINE dark side!:mrgreen:

Mimsy
November 30th, 2006, 07:54 PM
Mimsy, seems like you are missing one minority label: Linux Gamer. Come over to the Cedega/WINE dark side!:mrgreen:

No, thank you. It's tricky enough to get Windows games to run smoothly on Windows; I don't want, or need, the extra frustration and hassle of running it in a shell or emulator. Ask me again when Cedega is stable, reliable, and works with anything other than FPS or MMORPG games... that last part being the major obstacle/objection I have to trying it out.

:)

/Mimsy

Mimsy
November 30th, 2006, 07:55 PM
:-k I guess girls can be computer geeks too?...

No, they're usually not. But women can be, and we often are. ;)

/Mimsy

sloggerkhan
November 30th, 2006, 08:38 PM
I've found it often easier to get female windows users to try Ubuntu because most of them use their computers for 4/5 things: office-apps, e-mail, IM, and iPods,maybe photo management, and they don't even really understand what an OS is. (Most of them seem to think that the same software will work on OS, at least at first.) But because they don't have a lot of computing knowledge, their computers come loaded with bloatware they don't know enough to uninstall, fill with little bits of slowdown and trash they don't really understand, and pretty soon they wonder why their new computer runs like windows 3.1. At this point you only have to boot an Ubuntu CD, prove that they can do the same basic activities, and they're sold. To them, the Software seems prety much the same, and the performance, look, customizibility are nice. As long as someone is there to install it, things work out fine.

Guys are always REALLY reluctant to even try it, though. They have games. They are biased against linux. "If it's free, there must be something wrong with it" is something you hear a lot, too. They are afraid of it because it sounds too different. "This sucks because such and such is slightly different than on windows," Etc., Etc.

The only mistake I've made so far is that on one girl's comp, I installed xubuntu because she didn't have too much RAM even though her processor was about 1.1 ghz. She likes it, but she's set all the visual settings so that it looks more hideous than windows! If I'd installed gnome Ubuntu, she wouldn't have the option to make it look as bad as she has! Anyhow, every time I tell her she should make it prettier I get a lecture about how she only uses it for writing emails and papers and that if she's happy with it, it shouldn't be my problem. The only 2 issues she has with linux are that comedy central's website doesn't play videos right, and that the HP print driver doesn't have a current jobs window (so she can cancel a print job after it's been started.)

Malikith
November 30th, 2006, 09:26 PM
Mimsy, seems like you are missing one minority label: Linux Gamer. Come over to the Cedega/WINE dark side!:mrgreen:

Hey i'd hate to kinda burst your bubble but I think the true definition of a Linux Gamer is a Linux user who plays native Linux games. And Cedega (not wine) IS the dark side, costs money and doesn't give code back to the wine developers. No hard feelings though, just stating my opinion hehe.

And about women using Ubuntu, I wish more women did. Hell, any increased growth in Linux is welcome, but that specifically is one thing that does need to grow. I think it would help dissolve the whole Linux stereotype that Windows users tend to have towards us Linux users. Not all but alot of them do. Like you'll hear, "Linux is such a hacker/geek OS." or "Linux is not user friendly." yet you ask them, have you tried Linux? Most of the time, answer is no.

Lastly, you try to have them give Linux a try, even just trying a live-cd, and if the person is the ignorant Windows user type they'll say "I don't have the time to try to learn that." yet they're sitting on their computer for 5+ hours a day haha, that and Linux nowdays especially Ubuntu can be learned pretty quickly, at least on the desktop. Unbelievable.

But I believe Linux will continue to grow as it always does/has. I think it'll fill in over time, like a pie, we'll get more curious users, we'll get more gamers, and we'll get more women users. I have this prediction that when Vista releases I think the Linux user base will increase by 5-10%, but that might be wishful thinking, but anything is possible. And if it happens, we'll welcome them all with open arms.

justin whitaker
November 30th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Hey i'd hate to kinda burst your bubble but I think the true definition of a Linux Gamer is a Linux user who plays native Linux games. And Cedega (not wine) IS the dark side, costs money and doesn't give code back to the wine developers. No hard feelings though, just stating my opinion hehe.

<thread derail>
I think that my position on Cedega is pretty well documented here. I want to play professionally produced gaming titles on my Linux PC, and Cedega is the fastest/easiest way to do that.

I don't let political infighting get in the way of my exploring Azeroth.

Next thing you know, you will tell me that REAL Linux Gamers only play nethack on Gentoo.

In the dark.

On hand cranked PCs.

With one hand tied behind their back.
</thread derail>

Malikith
November 30th, 2006, 09:44 PM
<thread derail>
I think that my position on Cedega is pretty well documented here. I want to play professionally produced gaming titles on my Linux PC, and Cedega is the fastest/easiest way to do that.

I don't let political infighting get in the way of my exploring Azeroth.

Next thing you know, you will tell me that REAL Linux Gamers only play nethack on Gentoo.

In the dark.

On hand cranked PCs.

With one hand tied behind their back.
</thread derail>

Yeah and theres absolutely no hard feelings to that there is nothing wrong with using Cedega, I just believe that Cedega's doings have gone against the open source philosophy, thats all. And I think the meaning Linux Gamer goes like this, you play linux games, you're a linux gamer, you play mac games, you're a Mac gamer, you play xbox games, you're a xbox gamer. But all in all, you're still a gamer. I don't know where you're coming from with the Nethack on Gentoo thing, i'm not implying that in a elitist way. Theres plentiful amounts of native Linux games, UT 2004, every ID Software game ever made, Savage, plus tons more, and coming soon for Linux UT 2007 and Quake Wars.

justin whitaker
November 30th, 2006, 09:44 PM
Man I WISH my boyfriend used Ubuntu. Instead, he calls me a "linux elitist" and it's one of those things we used to get in a fight about all the time.

That's a missive from a parallel universe from most of us.

Although, I was having issues with an old PC I donated to my mother in law, and XP no worky.

Kanotix found everything fine, so my wife said "whatver works, just keep it running." I installed Freespire on it (My wife can handle Ubuntu, but my mother in law?), and 10 minutes later, voila! Perfection!

Taken me 3 years to get to that point.

Keep on message. :mrgreen:

Mimsy
November 30th, 2006, 09:59 PM
Yeah and theres absolutely no hard feelings to that there is nothing wrong with using Cedega, I just believe that Cedega's doings have gone against the open source philosophy, thats all.

There's always the possibility that they're not in it because they support the open source philosophy. They might do what they do because it's a niche that no one else had filled yet, and they saw an opportunity to capitalize on, and proceeded to do just that.

It's also an unfortunate but true fact that aproduct that comes at a cost for the end user hasmore credibility. It implies that there is someone to hold responsible if something goes wrong, it implies the right to competent help if it's needed.

Anything that is free is like the things you can buy at the dollar store: It's cheap for a reason, and it's going to break and die on you, and you have just wasted a lot of time, and a dollar. Spend $20, and get something that works and will last instead.

That seems to be the general perception at least.

/Mimsy

-Phi-
November 30th, 2006, 10:17 PM
I'm just posting to up the stat on females using Ubuntu by one.

I always wanted to run linux. It seems like the right thing to do, like recycling and using energy efficient light bulbs and donating blood and bicycling/walking instead of driving. How granola of me.

Plus I always feel like Ubuntu/linux is doing what I want it to do, instead of what some clearly illogical software designer thinks my computer ought to do. And if it isn't doing what I want it to do, I can change it.

- Phi

PS. My fiancé runs XP and it works just fine for him. I've never seen a point to trying to convert him or anyone else since I would object to someone trying to "convert" me. I dislike to evangelism (and hypocrisy).

Malikith
November 30th, 2006, 10:24 PM
There's always the possibility that they're not in it because they support the open source philosophy. They might do what they do because it's a niche that no one else had filled yet, and they saw an opportunity to capitalize on, and proceeded to do just that.

It's also an unfortunate but true fact that aproduct that comes at a cost for the end user hasmore credibility. It implies that there is someone to hold responsible if something goes wrong, it implies the right to competent help if it's needed.

Anything that is free is like the things you can buy at the dollar store: It's cheap for a reason, and it's going to break and die on you, and you have just wasted a lot of time, and a dollar. Spend $20, and get something that works and will last instead.

That seems to be the general perception at least.

/Mimsy

Yeah I understand that definitely, its just when you've seen some of the things like taking Wine D3D developers just kind of upsets some of the Linux community, it doesn't look good sometimes, but maybe they do mean well, who knows. I think the price for Cedega is 15$ for 3 months which yes is very cheap. Just in my eyes when I look at Cedega, I look at Codeweaver's Crossover Office who do give code back to Wine developers, they are also starting to turn Crossover into more of a gaming version of Wine, like Cedega. More expensive up front but maybe cheaper in the long run, 60$ I believe is the upfront fee. But hey, they are extremely successful with businesses.

The thing I wish the most is what every other Linux user wants, more native games, commercial or not. But that goes back to what we've been talking about during this thread. Growth is the key. I just hope that alot more developers all around will look at Linux someday or the near future as a platform to develop for. So we can have more stuff for kids, men, and women. Although Edubuntu seems to be doing a hell of a job for the kids from what I hear.

Lastly, I just want to make sure that everything I said wasn't looked at as a bad thing, because hey, I've been wrong, and I can accept that, I just do not like upsetting people unintentionally. And that anything I said was not misinterpreted. We all have our views, but we all have our points as well.

Malikith
November 30th, 2006, 10:38 PM
I'm just posting to up the stat on females using Ubuntu by one.

I always wanted to run linux. It seems like the right thing to do, like recycling and using energy efficient light bulbs and donating blood and bicycling/walking instead of driving. How granola of me.

Plus I always feel like Ubuntu/linux is doing what I want it to do, instead of what some clearly illogical software designer thinks my computer ought to do. And if it isn't doing what I want it to do, I can change it.

- Phi

PS. My fiancé runs XP and it works just fine for him. I've never seen a point to trying to convert him or anyone else since I would object to someone trying to "convert" me. I dislike to evangelism (and hypocrisy).

Absolutely, no one should be forced to use Linux, but suggestions are always welcome. I can definitely relate with always wanting to run Linux, 7-8 years ago I wanted to use it but didn't have a fast internet connection at the time and cd burners were pretty much at their infancy at the time and didn't have one back then. So it slipped my mind for a couple years then in 2003 I finally got into it and never looked back, then when Ubuntu came around, it started a big bang of excitement in the Linux community from what I remember which was around in the pre-warty before their first release which was 4.10.

But yeah Linux seems to always do what you want, theres no hokey pokey ;).

DoctorMO
November 30th, 2006, 11:54 PM
Cedega

As a programmer in wine, I'm insulted personaly by the theves at Cedega; they took someone elses work in order to make money and while not illigal it's sertainly immoral and I don't care how _good_ or useful the product is; if you have to rail road and hurt people to do it; it isn't worth supporting that kind of thing.

Please don't use Cedega, even if you can't play your game yet, support the community not the capatalist theves. (if they had programmed it themselves it wouldn't have been so bad)

Malikith
December 1st, 2006, 12:06 AM
As a programmer in wine, I'm insulted personaly by the theves at Cedega; they took someone elses work in order to make money and while not illigal it's sertainly immoral and I don't care how _good_ or useful the product is; if you have to rail road and hurt people to do it; it isn't worth supporting that kind of thing.

Please don't use Cedega, even if you can't play your game yet, support the community not the capatalist theves. (if they had programmed it themselves it wouldn't have been so bad)

Yup, you said it all. I couldn't believe it when they took some of the Wine D3D developers, put them under a contract of secrecy and cannot help the Wine project, a free open project, under their own free time and free will. I think its terrible of some of the things they've done to you guys. And that goes back to my whole point about Cedega, about them using your guy's code, putting in some D3d code and putting it up for sale and not giving back to the project that even made them exist in the first place. Theres alot of things Transgaming has done, and I do feel for you guys. Good news though, Wine is catching up to Cedega pretty fast. You guys are doing a excellent job.

SOULRiDER
December 1st, 2006, 12:23 AM
... in Ubuntu and I know it won't fall victim to spyware and viruses. It ought to be less maintenance and more usefulness.

Exactly! Thats especially why i want to get my mom to use linux, i wont have to be a techy for herm and it would run so much better that XP does. So far Opera has been pretty useful for keeping spyware away from her machine, but i dont know for how much longer.

quirt3
December 1st, 2006, 12:40 AM
There's always the possibility that they're not in it because they support the open source philosophy. They might do what they do because it's a niche that no one else had filled yet, and they saw an opportunity to capitalize on, and proceeded to do just that.

It's also an unfortunate but true fact that aproduct that comes at a cost for the end user hasmore credibility. It implies that there is someone to hold responsible if something goes wrong, it implies the right to competent help if it's needed.

Anything that is free is like the things you can buy at the dollar store: It's cheap for a reason, and it's going to break and die on you, and you have just wasted a lot of time, and a dollar. Spend $20, and get something that works and will last instead.

That seems to be the general perception at least.

/Mimsy




*ahem* Mimsy meet me. I'm a girl,(11) and I run Ubuntu. And for the most part maintian my system, too.I use this notebook for school. And yes, I know I'm really...odd? Your only ever going to meet anyother girl liek me uless you've been raised in a anti-M$ very computer savy envirement. And yes, I AM 11.

Mimsy
December 1st, 2006, 03:30 AM
*ahem* Mimsy meet me. I'm a girl,(11) and I run Ubuntu. And for the most part maintian my system, too.I use this notebook for school. And yes, I know I'm really...odd? Your only ever going to meet anyother girl liek me uless you've been raised in a anti-M$ very computer savy envirement. And yes, I AM 11.

I'm going to assume you meant to reply to my post that girls aren't geeks, women are? :) What I meant by that was meant to describe the type of person who remains girly-girly their entire life, and refuses to grow up and ever learn howto do anything themselves. To use an example: A girl is someone who, regardless of how old she is, would never even try to learn how to maintain her computer, she prefers to ask for help. Women learn, so they can fix things the next time they break.

The way I see it, if you're 11, running Ubuntu on your notebook and maintaining it yourself, (which of course makes you a geek!) you're not odd. You're awesome!

It's an honor to meet you, and I hope you stick around the forums, and that you stay with Ubuntu. The world needs more girls like you!

/Mimsy

daynah
December 1st, 2006, 03:49 AM
Can someone add a poll to this? Like...

If you are completely female, did you switch to ubuntu due to a boyfriend or husband?

I asked it this way to leave out the "other" sexes, transgendered, hermaphrodite, and some I may not be listing. Also I only included male partners because that's what this whole forum is about... that there's this traditional air of the men know how to do it, and the females don't, do the males have to teach the females. Hope I didn't offend anyone. I think when you try to make polls that include everyone, you always end up leaving someone out, so it messes up the poll. If the poll only includes some people, then it's more accurate, even if it's just for those people.

DoctorMO
December 1st, 2006, 02:38 PM
someone must be able to teach you in order for you to learn, there doesn't seem to be a lot of opertunties to learn linux from anyone other than a partner for women. which is just a shame.

quirt3
December 1st, 2006, 03:32 PM
Well, Unforunatly, The last time I tryed to convert one of my friends they had a fit because their Nancy Drew computer game wouldn't work. But I agree, It would be nice...And thank you for the clairfication.I probably will stick around for a while, but I'm hoping to get my butt moving enough to start making beryl themes, so I might be a tad absent.

Other people Can teach you. My dad, although he knows this OS in side and out, Refuses to help me wih it, so I learned by experimenting. He firmly belives the the best way of learning is to figure it out yourself.

cvmostert
December 6th, 2006, 01:04 AM
Well, Unforunatly, The last time I tryed to convert one of my friends they had a fit because their Nancy Drew computer game wouldn't work. But I agree, It would be nice...And thank you for the clairfication.I probably will stick around for a while, but I'm hoping to get my butt moving enough to start making beryl themes, so I might be a tad absent.

Other people Can teach you. My dad, although he knows this OS in side and out, Refuses to help me wih it, so I learned by experimenting. He firmly belives the the best way of learning is to figure it out yourself.

Your dad probably has a point there, but i believe it takes much longer that whay. Personally I use irc, this forum, manual pages, and google to help me solve my linux/ubuntu questions.... i think i have come a long way in this two or so years running UBUNTU.

keep up the fight... :-)

dorcssa
December 12th, 2006, 10:37 PM
Man I WISH my boyfriend used Ubuntu. Instead, he calls me a "linux elitist" and it's one of those things we used to get in a fight about all the time.

He's not switching to Linux one way or the other, and I've given up the battle.

I'm having the same issue. :D He told me, that he is fine with his windows, and don't see why he should even try ubuntu. He know a little bit about linux, he learned system administration is school, so he know more about pc's and IT too, still..
I consider myself boyish(everybody sais that), so I guess it's not very suprising ended up using linux. Some of my friend told mme maybe I like experimenting things, that's why I tried it. My boyfriend keep telling me that windows is better, and why bother with linux. Well, why not? :)

I have to admit, that I'd never discover linux, if it'd just myself, a friend of mine(defenitely a male :D) told me a lot of thing about linux. My curiosity is very big, so it helped a lot too. :D


(Btw money saving is not an issue when I trying to convert him, we don't even think about buying any software, just download it. A minority is willing to spend money to use windows, but everybody wants to use it. I have a friend(same who converted me:p ), who bought a win cd, and I looked at him very strangely. Of course not so many ppl here can afford it, but more than you'd think. Maybe just the old habits. (we have capitalism for over 16 years now, not a long time))<--Offtopic-sorry for that, I just had to..

K.Mandla
December 12th, 2006, 11:16 PM
Don't feel bad. I run into the same argument trying to convince my father to try Linux. In his mind, he paid for Windows, so he should use it. Arguments to its safety, stability or anything else are pointless: The computer came with Windows, and that's what he wants to use.

I've even tried to convince him that, since he uses a Novell product at work, there should be some level of credence to using Ubuntu at home. But he's not going for it.

What I ought to do is make a dummy Ubuntu box, slap a $199 sticker on it, wrap it up as a Christmas present and see if that validates the idea at all. :roll:

seijuro
December 12th, 2006, 11:45 PM
My girlfriend is an engineering major and when she tells people that, they act kind of shocked or surprised; I think some women feel uncomfortable with this kind of attention. It seems like girls hate being singled out or to be told they are in the "weird" minority..

My wife started out as a Comp Sci major in college and ended up changing to education/human relations because of that very reason. From a lot of the things she has said from the social/behavioral science classes she had it seems that women in general have an extraordinary need to "fit in" and are almost unreasonably suseptable to peer pressure. That beeing said an obvious step in the right direction would be to build a supportive social community of women for women with technical interests. The Ubuntu Women section of the board is a very good idea I confess I don't know a lot about it but if it were to operate like a club or better yet a Ubuntu Womens Local team it could really help spark interest as well as increasing the comfort level of the women that are here.

Littleweseth
December 17th, 2006, 02:39 PM
Really? If you've got any more detailed info I would be interested. :KS

en.wikipedia.org/Grace_Hopper

Worked on COBOL, widely credited as being the person who introduced banks and big business to the joys of automated computing (enabling them to fire all of their 'manual computer staff') :p

edit : maybe I should start checking if other people have answered the question to hand, in much more detail, before posting :p

steveneddy
December 17th, 2006, 06:34 PM
I wish I HAD a geeky GF. If I knew where to look, I mean, the only ones I know about are old ladies, over 55, in my computer science department. I'm 42 and I've never seen or met anyone that was very technical minded, much less into Linux....you know....just like the thread stater said, that she installed and trouble shot from the forums, took the leap of faith. That's my kind of girl.

I DID turn my 21 yr old daughter onto PCLinuxOS on her machine. We were gonna put Ubuntu on there, but not enough memory. (256 MB) She will be a master geek in a coupla more years.

BTW, PC only cost us out of pocket, $15. PC tower free from work when we upgraded, Monitor is my hand me down when I got my 21" (used at the PC shop) and she bought the mouse & keyboard at WalMart for $11, then we went to the PC shop & she bought a wired optical mouse (used) for $4. Looks and runs better than Vista and much more reliable.

If you haven't seen PCLinuxOS, it has transparent window borders out of the box. Very nice.

Anyway, more power to the girl geeks. I support you all!

Please be the good example to other girls and ladies alike and show them the truth about Linux and it's power and freedom.

boredom_amused
December 17th, 2006, 10:36 PM
Ubuntu and my 6 month anniversary is coming up! :biggrin: What do you think I should for Ubuntu?

zcal
December 18th, 2006, 01:07 AM
Ubuntu and my 6 month anniversary is coming up! :biggrin: What do you think I should for Ubuntu?

Buy it a nice graphics card?

WebDrake
January 7th, 2007, 06:06 PM
To them, the Software seems prety much the same, and the performance, look, customizibility are nice. As long as someone is there to install it, things work out fine.
This may be a short-term solution but in the long run you are screwing your friends by doing this. Something I've seen all too often is men "helping" a female colleague or friend who has an IT problem. They are very nice, very polite, take lots of time over it ... and they do everything themselves.

Sometimes you can see these guys walking away afterwards with that glow that comes from knowing there is someone who really, really needs you. A bit like mums who always insist on washing their sons' shirts or cooking their dinner. I don't believe there's any deliberate patronising effort here. There's a nice warm feeling all round and why not go for it? But ultimately it holds people back and makes them dependent.


A girl is someone who, regardless of how old she is, would never even try to learn how to maintain her computer, she prefers to ask for help. Women learn, so they can fix things the next time they break.

One of the problems everyone faces in their lives is a psychological phenomenon known as "learned helplessness". At heart it is our ability to learn to be unable to learn. For example, you're in a maths class and stuck on a problem. You can't solve it, but you want to show you're trying, so you screw up your face and try to look like you're thinking really hard and ...

... and the teacher notices and comes over and gives you lots of help, maybe even writing out the answer for you, step by step, and at the end of the class maybe you still did badly but the teacher will praise you for trying. Wahey! You've found a solution, and it will probably still keep working all through school, and it's much simpler than actually solving the problems yourself. You'll get crap grades and people will think you less able but they will praise your effort. Meanwhile you will grow more and more convinced that really you can't do this stuff (because you get crap grades, you always need help, etc. etc.), and all your interactions will reinforce that.

To undo this it's not enough to teach you how to do the thing yourself, we have to get rid of the helplessness that you learned, that feeling that makes every setback, every incorrect answer, a reinforcement of the original feeling. In many ways it's like undoing a phobia. Your learning environment has to be especially cushioned to help you avoid the source of fear. If not, learning or training can even be a negative experience that makes you worse. Something like this: ](*,)

So when dealing with someone---anyone---who wants their computer or OS to "just work" and not have to worry about technical details, especially someone who wants you to just solve the problem for them, this is worth bearing in mind. People who "can't be bothered" actually are often scared. A little positive reinforcement can go a long way. The best thing you can do is to help people see "problems" as fun. "Hey! My computer broke! Maybe I found a new bug and I can help improve Ubuntu!" for example. :KS

This is why Free Software is so brilliant, because you can see the positive results of your problem-solving so clearly. Seeing that bug you filed appear in the public bug-tracker and seeing the solution appear. Seeing that patch you submitted make its way into the upstream and benefit the community. Seeing that feature request turn into a reality. Seeing the feature that you wrote become a reality. Isn't life grand? Free Software is one of the key parts in the solution of learned helplessness in computers.


The only mistake I've made so far is that on one girl's comp, I installed xubuntu because she didn't have too much RAM even though her processor was about 1.1 ghz. She likes it, but she's set all the visual settings so that it looks more hideous than windows! If I'd installed gnome Ubuntu, she wouldn't have the option to make it look as bad as she has! Anyhow, every time I tell her she should make it prettier I get a lecture about how she only uses it for writing emails and papers and that if she's happy with it, it shouldn't be my problem.
Quite right too. You should encourage your friends to pursue their own ideas and needs, not yours. :)

WebDrake
January 7th, 2007, 06:21 PM
As a programmer in wine, I'm insulted personaly by the theves at Cedega; they took someone elses work in order to make money and while not illigal it's sertainly immoral and I don't care how _good_ or useful the product is; if you have to rail road and hurt people to do it; it isn't worth supporting that kind of thing.

Please don't use Cedega, even if you can't play your game yet, support the community not the capatalist theves. (if they had programmed it themselves it wouldn't have been so bad)
As I recall, Wine was under the X11 license when this happened, right?

... in which case, I don't think you can blame them for doing that. It might have been nice of them not to, but with that choice of license you gave everyone and anyone permission to do so. You can't be angry when people choose to make use of that permission.

Of course, I agree that as Free Software supporters we should choose not to support them by buying copies.

DoctorMO
January 10th, 2007, 08:40 AM
WebDrake - It does make me want to hit people who consider BSD and X11 licences.

And yes it is our fault for making it legal, but that doesn't make it _right_ nor does it excuse taking wine developers away from wine.

sageb1
January 16th, 2007, 02:09 PM
Before browsing this forum I had no idea that women made up such a small percentage of users and of those who do, most seem to be using it because of their partner. Is this a reflection of the larger trend of males dominating the computer world? Is this why it is so difficult to find funny science/tech-y shirts that will actually fit me and not look like a smock?

I came into Ubuntu as pretty much a total outsider and newbie. I set it all up and got everything working, no dual boot or anything I just took that leap of faith and have it on my desktop and laptop. Any problems I figured out with help from the forums and I'm proud of that. So why do I still feel uneasy that I'm suddenly in the minority? apparently a really tiny one?

It must really make u go invisible when male Ubuntu nerds ineptly try to pick u up too.:mrgreen:

sageb1
January 16th, 2007, 02:16 PM
I don't think it stops at what kinds of toys boys and girls play with as children; I think society's perception of females who are interested in mechanics, computers and the like are partly to blame as well.

My girlfriend is an engineering major and when she tells people that, they act kind of shocked or surprised; I think some women feel uncomfortable with this kind of attention. It seems like girls hate being singled out or to be told they are in the "weird" minority..

This is a true story.

A systems analyst quit Lockheed Martin in Orlando and drove to Durham NC to pick up her twins from the adoptive parents to not be.

She eventually ended up in Ottawa, "because my kids have never seen snow."

She won't be returning to America soon, cos that custody battle wiped her out financial, spiritually and physically.

She is my heroine of 2006.

Go Allison Lee Quets go!
Free Allison Lee Quets!!!

happy-and-lost
January 17th, 2007, 09:08 PM
Try here for tshirts http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/. My girlfriend (also an ubuntress) has one that says "Talk nerdy to me". :)

I WANT.

Yeah, I'm the only geek in a girls' school of appx. 500. My friends think its great that I can fix their laptops in a flash for them, but freak out when I suggest any software alternative to IE and iTunes (Well, I have got someone into FF and she actually discovered VLC for herself)... but they're so narrow minded. The argument "but it's pretty" is sadly often used. Jaws drop when I spin my desktop in Beryl though :mrgreen:

They just don't appreciate the fact that there are better things than what's been chosen for them.

Pikestaff
January 29th, 2007, 05:31 AM
Try here for tshirts http://www.thinkgeek.com/tshirts/ladies/. My girlfriend (also an ubuntress) has one that says "Talk nerdy to me". :)

Heh, I have that shirt, and I wear it proudly alongside my Firefox one ^^

As for me, well it's kind of funny... my boyfriend loves Open Source and the "Linux philosophy" and is better at computers than I am (I'm good, but he's really good... and a CS major, which I am not), and yet of the two of us I was the one to actually make the plunge and install Linux. My reasons for it were many-fold, really... one was that I've really come to be interested in the Open Source/Free Software ideas, one was that I'd messed around with the Kubuntu Live CD a few times and loved it, and another was that I really wanted to increase my geek cred ;) (My geekiness and nerdiness define myself. And I am always looking for ways to make myself geekier. Hehe.) The real kicker was when Windows XP just started acting stupid, and in a fit of determination I threw the Kubuntu Live CD in the CD drive, clicked Install, and... well... all my computer problems went away. :)

That was a few weeks ago, since then I've come to be such a huge fan of this operating system. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I'm good with computers but not great, and yet I was able to figure out any snags that I came across with the help of Google and the huge Ubuntu community. If I can do it, I think most people who are "decent" with computers can do it. That's what I've been going around telling people recently, including my fellow geekchicks.

My boyfriend has told me that he's really proud of me for being the first in our little geeky circle of friends to actually fully install and use Linux. I think he thinks it's hot. ;) He'd like to install it himself sometime as well.

Phew, that was a lot of rambling... I hope none of you minded my rambles. =P

mkurdziolek
January 29th, 2007, 06:43 PM
I decided to major in Computer Science because I had such a great time with it in my high school class. I really loved programming. When I got to college I still loved it, but I felt like I had to defend my intellegence a little bit more. Maybe since I was one of 3 women in a class of 80 I felt like I had to represent all of woman kind to the best of my abilities. (This PhD Comic explains it perfectly: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=55 )

When you are a minority of any kind, you stand out. For example, in a class of 100 people the professor will always remember your name if you are a girl but only know a small handful of other people's names. That kind of scrutiny is always a little hard to deal with.

Take the extra attention/scrutiny and add to it a few off colored comments about girls being dumb at math/with computers and you've got yourself a lot of pressure to deal with.

Now I am a second year graduate student in Computer Science. I am getting my Masters degree this semester and I'm sticking around for another 2 years to get my PhD. I *still* feel like I have to prove myself because I'm a girl sometimes.

mkurdziolek
January 29th, 2007, 06:50 PM
here is a CNN article about the lack of women in engineering: http://www.cnn.com/2007/EDUCATION/01/22/female.engineers.ap/index.html

seventynine
February 2nd, 2007, 10:56 PM
I, for one, learned Linux this yr by a woman with kids of my age. :)

seventynine
February 2nd, 2007, 11:01 PM
I decided to major in Computer Science because I had such a great time with it in my high school class. I really loved programming. When I got to college I still loved it, but I felt like I had to defend my intellegence a little bit more. Maybe since I was one of 3 women in a class of 80 I felt like I had to represent all of woman kind to the best of my abilities. (This PhD Comic explains it perfectly: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=55 )

When you are a minority of any kind, you stand out. For example, in a class of 100 people the professor will always remember your name if you are a girl but only know a small handful of other people's names. That kind of scrutiny is always a little hard to deal with.

Take the extra attention/scrutiny and add to it a few off colored comments about girls being dumb at math/with computers and you've got yourself a lot of pressure to deal with.

Now I am a second year graduate student in Computer Science. I am getting my Masters degree this semester and I'm sticking around for another 2 years to get my PhD. I *still* feel like I have to prove myself because I'm a girl sometimes.

Hey, btw I just notcied ur a Hokie. I hope u didnt get Mcquain for prof. :) :)

macogw
February 4th, 2007, 06:30 AM
I gotta say I didn't start with Ubuntu because of the guy I was dating. Heck, the other guys told me it wasn't worth the effort and just stick with Windows. I did convert the first guy I dated after the switch into a Linux user though. I'm dating a guy from LUG now. He's a lot better with computers than me, but when I said "he's the techie in this relationship" Brunellus laughed and said it's a matter of degree with the two of us given that we were discussing USBdump on the metro [subway] platform.

Scarlett
February 6th, 2007, 08:54 AM
Can someone add a poll to this? Like...

If you are completely female, did you switch to ubuntu due to a boyfriend or husband?

I know I'm coming into this discussion late, but it was just too good to pass up.

I built my own computer just over a year ago, only took me 18 hours :-D , (hey, it was my first one). I flashed the BIOS, installed XP and all the drivers and a very long list of must-have software. When all the subscriptions for anti-virus, -spyware and firewall ran out I decided I wasn't going to pay any more and I loaded up Ubuntu. I've done quite a bit of searching on these boards to find howto's and solutions and failing that, I've made a few stupid newbie topics. No boyfriend, no husband, or even fellow Linuxchix girlfriend... just me and a willingness to learn and a headstrong determination to get away from insecure platforms and proprietary software that constantly wanted to phone home.

I don't feel I'm in the minority as a female, I feel I'm in the minority as a Linux user and geek-in-training. Only two of my friends have even heard of Linux. One is impressed, the other, a systems administrator who's strictly a Windows guy, thinks I'm crazy.

dorcssa
February 6th, 2007, 01:18 PM
I don't feel I'm in the minority as a female, I feel I'm in the minority as a Linux user and geek-in-training. Only two of my friends have even heard of Linux. One is impressed, the other, a systems administrator who's strictly a Windows guy, thinks I'm crazy.

I feel like you, I don't care really, that I'm a girl using linux. My boyfriend find it wierd and say that I don't know windows too well, that's why I use linux instead. Most of my friends know linux by name, but don't know what it is exactly, only a few minority know that there are different distros, and only two actually use linux. (both helped me along the way :) )

boredom_amused
February 10th, 2007, 07:31 AM
It must really make u go invisible when male Ubuntu nerds ineptly try to pick u up too.:mrgreen:

hahahaa
'inept' i think is the key word.

cprofitt
April 6th, 2007, 02:55 AM
You shouldn't feel uneasy but rather proud, but the lack of female GNU/Linux users is indeed a problem. It's not just Ubuntu, but all distros that suffer from this trend. The problem is the same in computer science and engineering departments at most universities, espeically in North America.

It's interesting how once, a long time ago, computer science was the field with the highest female:male ratio in universities. Nowdays, it's probably the smallest.

I guess the problem could come from the fact that women seem to dislike fields that have to do with anything technical: cars, engineering, computers... I don't know why they do this, because women are just as capable as men in those fields, but that's the way things are. It's possible that society is to blame: boys are given toy cars, robots and legos whereas girls are given barbies and pink ponies.

That is true... at the same time men usually have tough times entering fields normally dominated by females. Male nurses face ridicule. Male elementary teachers make up a small fraction of the total -- by some studies I have seen as little as 7%.

Men, in the United States, have to register for the draft while women do not.

Inequality surrounds us daily and special interest groups do little more than attempt to tip the scales in their favor when we should be trying to level them out.

I have one boy and one girl (one more on the way) and I constantly find myself trying to counter the "standard" societal messages they are being bombarded with. It is not an easy thing... but if we all look at each other as humans and not as "blank" type of human we might, as a society, finally move past the issues.

I admit that I once thought that dream possible, I have sadly come to the conclusion that it probably will not in my lifetime.

wulfhound
April 7th, 2007, 08:10 AM
Before browsing this forum I had no idea that women made up such a small percentage of users and of those who do, most seem to be using it because of their partner. Is this a reflection of the larger trend of males dominating the computer world? Is this why it is so difficult to find funny science/tech-y shirts that will actually fit me and not look like a smock?

I came into Ubuntu as pretty much a total outsider and newbie. I set it all up and got everything working, no dual boot or anything I just took that leap of faith and have it on my desktop and laptop. Any problems I figured out with help from the forums and I'm proud of that. So why do I still feel uneasy that I'm suddenly in the minority? apparently a really tiny one?

Don't feel uneasy...we're all people! Look how many users there are. No one cares when you post whether you're a woman or a man...they answer you just the same.

S

wulfhound
April 7th, 2007, 08:16 AM
I don't think it stops at what kinds of toys boys and girls play with as children; I think society's perception of females who are interested in mechanics, computers and the like are partly to blame as well.

My girlfriend is an engineering major and when she tells people that, they act kind of shocked or surprised; I think some women feel uncomfortable with this kind of attention. It seems like girls hate being singled out or to be told they are in the "weird" minority..

A lot comes down to the kind of role we all want to play. Honestly, if you want to have kids...most women decide to raise the kids themselves, as opposed to working. There are still a lot of women out there that just go to school just in case, so they can have a career if they want to, but decide to have kids and raise them. This is also a career, in a sense. Anyway I guess my point was, since a lot of women decide they're going to have kids, they pick simpler majors other than having to hunker down with calculus and stuff. I realize yes there are a lot of doctors out there that have kids but like I said, a lot of women nowadays are still having kids and staying at home after only starting or being in their career for a few years. Why put in all the effort for an engineering degree or a degree in computer science when you're just going to stay home anyway for the next 10 years of your life... eek! I know men who have dropped out of CS because of calc. It's not fun, male or female.

S

gldvxx
April 9th, 2007, 01:37 AM
RE: Cedega -- i absolutely DO NOT like what they are doing. i bought a subscription because my boyfriend and i play city of heroes. i wish wine could run it (if/when it can, let me know and i'll drop cedega so fast). i think their model is out of line with the Open Source community and i think they need to keep that kind of approach for Cider. at least follow Crossover's example. not contributing upstream is the worst thing they could do for the linux community.

what am i doing about it?

1) teaching myself game programming.
2) installing linux clients for games who have them and getting involved in their communities/testing (ie, second life, neverwinter nights)
3) if there is anything i can do in the WINE community to help get COH working, i'd like to know as well.

RE: ubuntu is my boyfriend

i graduated in computer science. i had very little self confidence and was very intimidated the whole time. other girls were unfriendly/competitive and the boys were all big talkers. i even had a female professor/mentor and it didn't help much. i also was dealing with the personal struggles all people go through in their young 20's. it's not until recently that i have confidence in myself as a programmer. i tried getting involved with webgrrls/systers/linuxchix but never felt comfortable there either. i DO feel comfortable with ubuntu-women and the ubuntu forums.

my dad also took the "figure it out yourself" approach with me and computers. with anything generally, the answer was "look it up" or he'd make up something totally ridiculous.

i encourage people to use ubuntu by expressing how much i love using it and if they show any interest i tell them where to get and make sure they know to get in touch with me if they get stuck. i switched from Mac and i've always been a hardcore Mac person (i've been told that i actually made mac users look good hhaaha). so people who know me know it's gotta be something good if i'm using it ;D

bean77
September 6th, 2007, 09:22 PM
Like the OP, I jumped into Ubuntu and haven't looked back. No more Windows, just went cold turkey. The only reason I've stayed with Ubuntu is because of these forums and the help I've received. I also built my own computer for the first time so it was quite a time-sucker for me and my husband thinks of the computer as the "other man". LOL

jbaerbock
October 21st, 2007, 07:13 AM
I would like to comment on a previous post on this Thread. I have been looking for computer oriented friends all my life and I never found any that were female. I would be surprised if a woman told me she was a mechanic or a computer administrator however I would also be very pleased because that is a person I can relate to. And person is the key word, we are all people and people with similar interests will enjoy each others company regardless of gender.

Sorry a lot of random fractal thoughts I know.

tamara_meske
November 27th, 2007, 07:31 AM
I joined the forums a while back, before I made the switch. Since I joined, I switched (95%) and the forums have been an invaluable resource. I haven't posted much until now, though.

I never knew until today that I fell into such a small minority (.86%, according to a recent poll!). I've never felt unwelcome, or discriminated against - although I did find one post today that made me wonder... so I looked up women and found this forum.

I guess I am discriminated against. Who knew?!? I certainly didn't until this evening :lolflag:

elizabeth
November 29th, 2007, 02:47 AM
I guess I am discriminated against. Who knew?!? I certainly didn't until this evening :lolflag:

Hurrah - that means we're making progress!

And a lot of credit goes to the forum mods here, who have taken a very strong stance about not accepting discriminatory behavior against anyone in the community.

zootie
December 18th, 2007, 06:45 AM
being in an IT role in a university i rarely have the chance to interview women for work at the UNI, I am lucky if 1/10 people applying for work will be female so we only have a handful of women in the IT section here

hbuser
December 26th, 2007, 08:02 PM
That is true... at the same time men usually have tough times entering fields normally dominated by females. Male nurses face ridicule. Male elementary teachers make up a small fraction of the total -- by some studies I have seen as little as 7%.

Men, in the United States, have to register for the draft while women do not.

Inequality surrounds us daily and special interest groups do little more than attempt to tip the scales in their favor when we should be trying to level them out.

I have one boy and one girl (one more on the way) and I constantly find myself trying to counter the "standard" societal messages they are being bombarded with. It is not an easy thing... but if we all look at each other as humans and not as "blank" type of human we might, as a society, finally move past the issues.

I admit that I once thought that dream possible, I have sadly come to the conclusion that it probably will not in my lifetime.

the male/female ratio in the sciences isn't neccessarily true in other parts of the world. i live in venezuela, and though a lot of ubuntu users seems to be male, it seems that about half of the IT students in colleges here are female.

i have a friend who owns a software company; he is sending recruiters to Iran (IRAN you all) to find women to work for the company: that place graduates one of the highest proportions and highest-achieving female computer scientists. i had no clue.

Lanning
December 28th, 2007, 07:42 AM
This Christmas, I had the fun of being told "you're cool" (and also that my laptop -- a Dell C400 with Ubuntu Feisty Faun (I got that Broadcom chip working!!! YAY ME!!!) -- is really cool) by a definitely geeky pair of brothers who are about 20 years younger than me (two IT professionals, btw). I'm a 52 yo self-taught (with help from the forums, google, et al) geek who loves to take apart laptops and fix 'em and install Linux. I'm pretty slow with the Terminal still (can't remember the code) and I'd really like to play more games (but can't figure out WINE) -- and I'm having a blast. You're never too old to learn this if you have patience, fortitude, and a good bit of stubbornness -- some qualities we older broads have had to develop in order to survive in a "man's" world.

valke
March 20th, 2008, 03:54 PM
yeah, ubuntu is my main man.

syms
April 1st, 2008, 08:36 PM
ubuntu is my boyfriend....
why are you girls so strange? why you dont like boys? in nowadays there are so many innormal people... :(
anyway i think it is just a joke :)

Eisenwinter
October 29th, 2008, 08:18 AM
I just want to say, total respect to all of you.

FutanariKitty
October 31st, 2008, 03:03 PM
Perhaps this is a serious bit of thread necromancy, but it IS Samhain after all, and I can't resist the urge to wax philosophical about gender.

Personally, I've always had the mindset that the various subtle deficiencies in equality stem from societal sources. While it's no small secret that 'male' and 'female' brains are generically different, what separates the sexes is really unclear. For that matter, sex doesn't just end with male and female (do some research on Klinefelter's syndrome, for example). Males are typically assumed to be stronger, faster, more analytical and logical. Females assumed to be softer, quieter, ruled by emotion and highly empathic.

I think these generalities (and many more) have just become to ingrained into our upbringing. I mean, I couldn't tell you how many girls I know that could fight like a demon, or how many boys I know that are truly in touch with their emotions. Society punishes people like that though. The girl who knows how to fight and stands up for herself is considered uncultured, crude, and unfeminine. The boy who isn't afraid to cry is viewed as a pansy, less than a man. Does any of this seem utterly ridiculous?

I've got a bit of an interesting perspective on the topic considering I've lived on both sides of the gender binary at some point. I was raised as a boy and lived the first 23 years of my life as such. I can personally tell you how shockingly different my body and mind are now that I'm taking estrogen supplements and testosterone blockers. It's a joke amongst some that women are always hormonal, but I'll just say it goes both ways. The effect of testosterone on the body is a frightening one (to me, that is).

Society is programmed with expectations about how people will behave based on their gender. In actuality, it's no different than our society's stereotypes on race and ethnicity, but the scope is incredibly encompassing. It's one of the first things we are taught as children, from the color of our clothing to our toys. I'm sure there are a number of fathers out there that would be highly upset when their toddler boy wants to play with a doll, whilst a number of mothers would probably be upset when their baby girl wants to play with G. I. Joe's. These stereotypes are reinforced year after year of our development. Some people think they're just 'always' there, or they aren't a big deal, but from someone who had to reacclimate to another gender it's not so simple. I think the worst part of it all is how society has so firmly linked gender roles with what's between someone's legs, as if that was the business of anyone out there. I mean, look at how women, in many cases, are viewed as little more than baby factories. And you better believe that someone who appears so androgynous that others can't easily determine gender tend to upset a LOT of people. They innately become flustered and uneasy.

It's a bit ironic how the contributions of women tend to go unnoticed and forgotten. Look at the work of Lynn Conway, whose research at IBM led to some important advancements about the very machines we use today. She was transgendered, and was fired in 1968 when she revealed this to IBM. Her work went unnoticed and uncredited for nearly 30 years, until she finally came out about her past.

I could be a raging misandrist and say that it is the fault of men that women are treated so poorly in various endeavours, including the IT fields. And there's probably some truth to it, but that would do a disservice to all the men that actually do treat women fairly, nor does it take into account that both sides of the gender binary tend to treat those that 'break the rules' unfairly.

Anyway, I think that's enough rambling for one day. Happy Holidays everyone!

TenLeftFingers
March 9th, 2009, 11:00 PM
Most girls I know look at computers (and maybe phones too) as a medium to an end, as opposed to something of interest in itself. For example, I love food, but I couldn't even tell you how many prongs are on the forks in my cutlery drawer. I just use them to eat (well, at least when others are present :) )

My niece for example uses facebook to keep in touch with her friends and the same for her phone. If I mention drupal she glazes over. Same response when I tell her to try firefox instead of explorer.

I think the mobile phone market is actually changing attitudes to technology though. My niece started off downloading ring-tones and wallpapers but now she can set up my blackberrys voicemail for me. When I was 18 I couldn't even set up an email account!

Another thing is probably that software developers aren't great role models. I remember my first and last interview. A room full of middle aged guys wearing wolly jumpers. I was still very young then but I ran away with my tail between my legs and got a factory job just because I preferred the work environment.

Anyway, as the last poster said - enough of my rambling. It's medication time!

pony
October 19th, 2009, 09:13 PM
I'm a girl,10 years old,and I love ubuntu. It's the only thing I keep on my desktop. I keep Windows for games and that's it. I don't really like the look of Windows.:):):)

river226
October 19th, 2009, 10:51 PM
I'm a girl,10 years old,and I love ubuntu. It's the only thing I keep on my desktop. I keep Windows for games and that's it. I don't really like the look of Windows.:):):)
just got to say, awesome.

also it's said that more women aren't apart of the ubuntu game, i agree that linux needs to be promoted more i mean for me if i hadn't been in the right class with the right teacher in high school i would be half as into computers as i am now, and with no more ex-poser to linux then those late 90's IBM linux ad's. great ad's.

and when it comes down to it that's really it, cause from my own childhood i was raised on mac and windows and never understood the difference accept the concept that mac's look cool and this one doesn't, so i mean for the average user the OS of choice isn't really a choice as long as it does what they want. that goes for male an female, the only bar for linux is that the only real linux ad's are those IBM ones from the nineties, and thats pretty much it. plus the few times it makes it out there it gets a bad rep like that one girl in virgina if i got the right state, where they bashed the ubuntu OS that came with her laptop when she clicked the wrong thing on the dell site.
so i think the real problem is media, and women in the field of computers, and not linux or ubuntu. And i would also say the barrier for women there is that society has dictated for one reason or another doesn't accept the Open Source model, and also dictates what is acceptable, and unfortunately despite all the great female comp sci's they never got to define the world, the fields that contributed to comp sci the most, manpower-wise were already male dominated, and that's the cause. ultimately in my opinion