Pledge drive: Help create open nvidia drivers

[gnomeuser]

Spawned from the recent multitude of threads on the potential inclusion of proprietary drivers in Feisty I decided it might be a good time to see if the community is willing to put their money where their mouths are when it comes to freedom.

There's an existing project to create a free nvidia driver called Nouveau (http://nouveau.freedesktop.org/wiki/). However this is a big task and I think they could benefit from some moeny to buy hardware and maybe pay for some development.

Doing a collective pledge would allow us to present the project with an offer of some magnitude which they can then decide to accept or decline - in case they decline it no money is lost.

The target is a mere 1000 pledgers of $10 USD each, just looking at this forum with currently 144,516 active members that is less than 0.7% of that pool who needs to pledge in order to reach that goal. I think that is quite attainable and I do hope people here will feel the same way.

Let's show the world why the open source community is so great to be part of.

Pledge (http://www.pledgebank.com/nouveaudriver)

[nocturn]

A great idea. I'm in!

[BarfBag]

I'd be willing to pledge. Can you use PayPal as a form of payment?

[23meg]

Good move, signed.

[gnomeuser]

I'd be willing to pledge. Can you use PayPal as a form of payment?

When we reach the required amount of pledgers I will figure out a way to get the pledges collected. I imagine paypal would be an easy to use option but lets just get to 1000 first.

I'll do all the legwork so there is no need to worry - for me the biggest objective with this pledge is to show that the community can do something like this to ensure the freedom we speak so highly about. That part would warm my heart and it's all I get out of it since I don't own an nvidia card.

I'm extremely happy to see so much interest. Thank you all.

[DoctorMO]

Got it signed before, you don't have to commit money right now, once we have met the 1,000 people then we figure out the payment methods etc.

[gnomeuser]

If anyone feels like posting to their favorite relevant forums, baring it doesn't break the rules there naturally, that would be really helpful.

Just remember I have not talked to Nouveau yet, but I don't consider that a problem. I would rather go to them with a pledge of 1000 people and see if they want it, than an empty promise now. If they decline it naturally no money is lost since it's a pledge drive but your willingness to give and kindness is still appricated all the same.

[GeneralZod]

Pledged.

This thread shouldn't be allowed to fall off the front page!

[BarfBag]

Pledged.

This thread shouldn't be allowed to fall off the front page!

I agree. Wonder if any mods would be willing to pin it.

[chaosgeisterchen]

Pledged.

This thread shouldn't be allowed to fall off the front page!
What about a sticky? It's a major project for future Linux development so it is justified I think.

[DoctorMO]

Anyone willing to put this on other forums?

[jc87]

What about a section in the 3rd Party Projects dedicated to the whole open drivers subject? it may not be a "regular" one mas it does deserve lots of attention!

And who knows what we might achieve this way?

[DoctorMO]

bump

[DC@DR]

I'm in :)

[ciaran.mooney]

Pledged.

Good luck.

[jakes]

I'd also be willing to donate

[BarfBag]

Bump.

[slimdog360]

Id imagine this would really kick off the ground if they were making ati drivers. Im not criticising (in a bad way), I really like the idea, but I see that almost everyone with an ati card has problems.

But anyway, like I said I really like the idea. Id love to see better drivers, the Nvidia drivers are still not as good as those in Windows.

[The Noble]

Does clicking the link add to the pledge? I don't want to pledge without having a paypal account(yet) but I am curious to see how many people have pledged.

*bump*

EDIT: Also, are there any groups that are doing the same for ati? I know that plenty of people would be incredibly happy if there were some open drivers -- It may even lead to a greater adoption of linux.

[amgeex]

Count me in!

[gnomeuser]

Does clicking the link add to the pledge? I don't want to pledge without having a paypal account(yet) but I am curious to see how many people have pledged.

*bump*

EDIT: Also, are there any groups that are doing the same for ati? I know that plenty of people would be incredibly happy if there were some open drivers -- It may even lead to a greater adoption of linux.

The primary reason why I picked nvidia as the subject was that anything from ATI that is r300 based on earlier has excellent support, this covers most of the ATI laptop chipsets out there. I personally have nothing but r300/r200 cards in my machines just because they are so well supported. Nvidia however has only a 2d driver in X.org and while that's pretty stable it does not meet the requirements for running things like Compiz. So the cost benefit is strongly in favor of picking nvidia as we would free more users from the binary drivers given that there's no free 3d driver available right now.

But if we can fund nvidia drivers this way I don't see what would stop us from running a similar pledge for any other required piece of code. But let's just get to a 1000 first, I have every confidence in the world that we can do this.

[Footissimo]

Pledged

[DoctorMO]

I find it ironic that topics about putting binary drivers in fawn are pushing this important topic to the second page. admins did you decide if this is important enough to sticky?

[BarfBag]

I just started hanging around here on a regular basis. Think someone could PM an admin?

[rjwood]

Done!!

[argie]

I don't understand. Isn't there already an open-source nvidia driver? Wouldn't it make more sense to pledge the money to them instead of a project that hasn't even started?

EDIT: Urk, no there isn't.
Note to self: do not talk before making sure of what you say.

[BarfBag]

I don't understand. Isn't there already an open-source nvidia driver? Wouldn't it make more sense to pledge the money to them instead of a project that hasn't even started?

Explain this a little farther, please.

[ssam]

i'm in. binary drivers are no good because, they only seem to be made for x86. open source drivers can be compiled for powerpc, sparc etc.

but. do the Nouveau devs want donations? would $10,000 make their job easier?

is the idea that the $10,000 would pay someone to do the work, or buy the dev team a pile of graphics cards to work with? or is there a special bit of hardware for reverse engineering that cost lots of money?

if they just want money for graphics card to test, then wouldn't they be better off with the $130 pledged so far, to get started, and then to let more money trickle in.

[Terracotta]

Pledged.

[Freddy]

Ofc I'll help. /Pledged

[Sandlst]

Pledged. I love the idea of being able to have an open-source nvidia driver that would support my gaming needs......heh.

[Wolki]

Pledged. I have plans to replace my current nvidia graphics card with one thet is more silent and has open source, so R300 seems to be the way to go. If we get a strong nouveau driver, I will have more options, and that's worth a lot.

[canardo]

pledged small amount to achieve this

[gnomeuser]

pledged small amount to achieve this

That was pretty much the idea.. 10$, that's the same you'd pay for a pizza. Forgo a pizza and help free drivers.

I owe so much to the free software community, if 10$ can help out then I gladly give it to a worthy cause. I hope this experiment will show that the majority of the community feels this way.

[kuja]

Only 19 have so far? pity :(


Pledged. If worst comes to worst, count me as ten ;)

[DoctorMO]

It does say 'or more' and I've put myself down for $50... ok so it's in my head since the pledge bank doesn't go for the custom options.

[rubinstein]

Pledged :-)

[DoctorMO]

bump

[gnomeuser]

Only 19 have so far? pity :(


Pledged. If worst comes to worst, count me as ten ;)

23 people now, I would really like to think that getting less than 1% of the active members here to pledge isn't a big problem. If it turns out to be it would sadden me a lot.

I know some of you like me privatly pledge more than the 10$ and your heart is admirable but part of me would honestly much rather have 10.000 people donating a dollar. The object isn't so much the money but the spirit of paying it forward. I value the freedom I get from free software, I appriciate the many man hours that gets put into the entire system by tens of thousands of people every day. I think it's more than worth a bit of my money and my time.

1000 people has to be an attainable goal, it simply has to be. The bad news is that projections right now tells us that it isn't, we would hit just shy of 30% at the current rate. The good news is that according to the statistics on Pledgebank we are in good shape, the vast majority of pledges never reach above 20 people, we got there in less than 2 days.

[Patrick K.]

I will not benefit from this at all, however.. Consider it signed. Anything to improve the list of compatibility on Linux.

[kuja]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of users don't even visit the Cafe section. It is the most appropriate place to put this, but I don't think a lot of people will see it here.

[gnomeuser]

I think part of the problem is that a lot of users don't even visit the Cafe section. It is the most appropriate place to put this, but I don't think a lot of people will see it here.

I put it in my signature and I'm not stopping anyone else from politely pointing out the pledgedrive to other people.

[DoctorMO]

Then perhaps we need to be more proactive, getting it onto slashdot, linux.org, groklaw, theregister anything to improve the publicity.

[DoctorMO]

We need more pledges!

[eddin]

Pledger no. 24 (i think): I pledge to donate to the Nouveau project.

I like this idea of pooling our resources to achieve something that we can't do alone. It's also a good proof of concept. Once this is a success we shall see more of such approach to improving open source software.

I agree that Paypal is good way to collect the donation.

btw, who is keeping track on the number of people who pledged to donate?

Suggestions:

Should we create a "call to action" thread in each discussion area; the thread should link to this thread?

Need a catchy title. "Call to action:Ubuntuans, change the world" (this is lame, i know)

Give it more time for people to warm up to the idea.

[gnomeuser]

Pledger no. 24 (i think): I pledge to donate to the Nouveau project.

I like this idea of pooling our resources to achieve something that we can't do alone. It's also a good proof of concept. Once this is a success we shall see more of such approach to improving open source software.

I agree that Paypal is good way to collect the donation.

btw, who is keeping track on the number of people who pledged to donate?

Suggestions:

Should we create a "call to action" thread in each discussion area; the thread should link to this thread?

Need a catchy title. "Call to action:Ubuntuans, change the world" (this is lame, i know)

Give it more time for people to warm up to the idea.

Feel free to start that thread, part of the experiment could be how to get people involved with the lobbying effort as well. You, or anyone else, could also extend to places that's relevant for the pledge. Just don't let it slip into being spam.

I'm having a lot of fun with this but I feel it would be even more fun if everyone got involved beyond pledging.

[DoctorMO]

Pledger no. 24 (i think): I pledge to donate to the Nouveau project.

I don't think you've managed to pledge, follow the link to the plendge bank; they keep track for us.

http://www.pledgebank.com/nouveaudriver

[lolocaust]

Pledged as soon as I saw the link in someone's sig. If this is successful, then I'd be glad to support the same thing for other devices, like wireless chipsets.

[Peepsalot]

Pledged, although I also am wondering the same thin as argie. I thought there was an existing project for OSS nvidia drivers. Can someone confirm or deny this? If one already exists, then what makes these projects different.

[gnomeuser]

Pledged, although I also am wondering the same thin as argie. I thought there was an existing project for OSS nvidia drivers. Can someone confirm or deny this? If one already exists, then what makes these projects different.

To clarify:

This is a pledge drive to support that effort, they have already provided a greatly improved 2D driver with EXA support and they are working on 3d support.

They do need cards and maybe paid development time, code doesn't just happen especially not X code and graphics drivers. It's hard work and the people who do this honestly deserve every bit of admiration not to mention 10$ of your money.

[GoUbuntu]

Pledged.

[gnomeuser]

Holy ****.. when I went to bed we were hovering around 30 pledgers, when I wake up we are sitting at 89!!!

Many applauds people, we need more but this is great progress..

8) 8)

[gnomeuser]

And I found the explanation:
Digg it! (http://digg.com/linux_unix/3D_Nvidia_Linux_driver_under_development)

It seems someone in the community put us on Digg, so the viral part of the campaign seems to be going great, I'm very proud of you all. We even made the Digg frontpage.

Awesome work in the paying it forward department.

[Peepsalot]

That is great news. However once the Digg effect dies down, I have a feeling that much more work will need to be done to actually reach that target. 1000 people is not an easy task. Has anyone posted this on other forums yet?

[gnomeuser]

That is great news. However once the Digg effect dies down, I have a feeling that much more work will need to be done to actually reach that target. 1000 people is not an easy task. Has anyone posted this on other forums yet?

I know it's on the Gentoo Forums and OpenFree.org, I'd also wager it's on a lot of blogs.

[Peepsalot]

OK. I was going to post it on fedoraforum but there is already a post (http://fedoraforum.org/forum/showthread.php?t=137164&highlight=pledge).

I'm not currently a member of any other linux forums or I'd try more. ;)

[ciaran.mooney]

I posted it on Bit-Tech forums, but it wasn't greatly recieved oddly enough.

[GameManK]

Pledged. (bump^)

[Torrance]

Pledged.

This would be a major boost to the PPC platform.

This should be put on Digg and on OSNews.com

[APU]

I´m also in!

I was already following the Noveau project for a while but never had a similar good idea to support them :-(

Looking forward to accelerated 3D on PPC Macs with Nvidia cards (there are quite a few!)

[M7S]

pledged

[DoctorMO]

I'm not sure how to use digg.

PJ from groklaw had a good idea when I asked her, she's concerned that there isn't an authority to our activities.

The best thing we can do is organise ourselves around the FSF and get them to handle money and planning etc. we can then all commit to the pledge that when we get 1,000 people our money will go directly to the developers care of the FSF.

[ciaran.mooney]

Good idea with asking the FSF for help. I posted the pledge in another forum (Bit-Tech) and there were concerns over the trustworthiness of the pledge and where the money would actually go.

Has anyone got any plans for any publicity after the initial buzz and digg effect has worn off? The pledge is open until 8th Feb next year, there must be oppotunities for us to get more signers over that time.

Emailing and informing popular Podcasts (lug radio?) and even more posting on blogs? Are there any other projects out there that are similar and would support it? Things like beryl/compiz/XGL projects that will want and need decent open source drivers.

I can't think of anything else but then again, I'm not a marketing kind of person.

[gnomeuser]

*bump*

[guX]

I'd love to donate, but I'm only fifteen. I read that you need to be over 18 to create a PayPal account? How would I go about actually getting the money to the project?

[autocrosser]

I've pledged & added a link to another thread I had created. Let's all get together & make it happen!!!

[Beamerboy]

I don't understand your point. Which definition of free are you using? Because last I checked the proprietary don't cost a penny. I don't understand this drive to create open source NVidia drivers. NVidia have been very good with the linux community and have released great drivers for us, I think continuing this drive to create open source drivers will do nothing but alienate NVidia.

Opensource NVidia drivers will -never- be as good as the proprietary drivers because the opensource community cannot "legally" fully impliment the features of the hardware.

I understand working to create opensource drivers for hardware where the manufacturer refuses to support Linux, but frankly, why **** off a manufacturer who has put significant time and resources into creating and maintaining drivers for the Linux community?

Paladine

[bastiegast]

I'd love to donate, but I'm only fifteen. I read that you need to be over 18 to create a PayPal account? How would I go about actually getting the money to the project?

Well, Im 17 and created a paypal account without any problems, and then again the payment method hasn't been decided yet.

[ciaran.mooney]

I've had this same arguement on the Bit-tech forums. It seems to be something that divides the open source community.

Should we accept the binary drivers, because nVidia were willing to let us have them, or do we want something more liberatian.

I don't understand your point. Which definition of free are you using?

Free Software - Free to use and adapt, and able to view the code to improve it in a open and public way.

why **** off a manufacturer who has put significant time and resources into creating and maintaining drivers for the Linux community?


Because they are not providing what we want. We want open source / free software drivers.

As you say they'll never be as good, but you've got to start somewhere, and if nVidia aren't willing to do it then it must be done by us.

The open source drivers will never be a threat to them, as we will always be 10 steps behind. But I don't like the idea of rolling over and letting them give me their drivers.

I want a choice. I had a choice of OS and I chose not to use Windows for the same reason. If you don't use Windows because they don't let us see and distribute the code, then its the same for nVidia drivers but on a smaller scale.

[bastiegast]

I don't understand your point. Which definition of free are you using? Because last I checked the proprietary don't cost a penny. I don't understand this drive to create open source NVidia drivers. NVidia have been very good with the linux community and have released great drivers for us, I think continuing this drive to create open source drivers will do nothing but alienate NVidia.

Opensource NVidia drivers will -never- be as good as the proprietary drivers because the opensource community cannot "legally" fully impliment the features of the hardware.

I understand working to create opensource drivers for hardware where the manufacturer refuses to support Linux, but frankly, why **** off a manufacturer who has put significant time and resources into creating and maintaining drivers for the Linux community?

Paladine

From what I heard, having open source drivers improves the overall stabilty of the kernel and improves the systems security. And why, you think, do many distro's (under which ubuntu) not include the ati and nvidia drivers. Right, because theyre closed source. Having open source 3d accelerated drivers would make it a lot easier to include them in ubuntu which would save ubuntuforums a lot of people asking for help on getting 3d acceleration to work.

And by the way, I dont think we **** anyone off by creating our own drivers and even financially support them by ourselfs, we dont ask nvidia nothing so they have no reason to complain.

[miggl]

PLEDGED! Let's hope this gets off the ground.

I am VERY satisfied with nVidia as a whole, however, I do see much more potential for nVidia under Linux of the drivers are developed open source. I think it will also give Linux an edge over windows for users with nVidia cards, as their hardware would have Linux support.

[deep.tinker77]

How much money do we have to raise? Is it an amount that is reasonable, or are we talking thousand's upon thousands of dollars?

[autocrosser]

If anyone is interested in what the Devs are thinking, take a look at the post I was allowed to quote on page two of:

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=307281

I think that it is VERY interesting reading.

[Brunellus]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but I'm not sure I'm willing to pledge cash for a project that--as far as I can tell--simply doesn't exist yet.

Yes I know there is a cvs, but it isn't something I can use. There don't seem to be that many developers, either.

[guX]

I hate to be the wet blanket here, but I'm not sure I'm willing to pledge cash for a project that--as far as I can tell--simply doesn't exist yet.

Yes I know there is a cvs, but it isn't something I can use. There don't seem to be that many developers, either.

Well from looking at their feature matrix it seems they've done some work, although it might not be usable yet.

I think we should submit this to Slashdot or something, because we're not going to get enough pledges if we don't do something like that soon. I'd submit it to Slashdot myself, but I don't think I'd be able to write a good enough entry.

[holylucifer]

To those who are doubt internet security as i do, make sure you have a 2nd card,which does put money in and money is taken out when you donate, and if theres no money,they can't take cash out, i think thats more secure then your main bank account ;-).

[guX]

*bump* Can we get this stickied?

[michaeljt]

I was not aware of this pledge project and created the following bounty:

https://launchpad.net/bounties/free-nvidia-drivers

Still waiting to see if Canonical will raise the bounty value by the amount I donated... I didn't mean to (try to) start out a competing project though.

I'm happy to see that the answers to this thread have been rather more positive than to the one I posted on Ubuntu Cafe ("No, I'm happy with the existing drivers").

[ciaran.mooney]

So close!

Hopefully a bump will spur others to pledge.

Please don't just pledge mention it on other forums, even loosely tech related, every little helps.

Blog about it, talk about it, email about it.

I even suggest those who have already pledged use the "email a friend" option and email suggestions to your friends who also may be willing, or just easily convinced :D

Fingers crossed.

[ssam]

its getting close.

nearly at 75%

[ciaran.mooney]

Its past 75% now, but I think one final push is still needed.

I saw it being mentioned on some blogs that get syndicated across Planet Gnome and Ubuntu, I just hope that some other high profile bloggers pick it up and post about it. Its excruiciatingly close now.

[K.Mandla]

I'm in. :D

753 people have signed up, 247 more needed

[BarfBag]

Nice! I really hope this happens.

[Sunnz]

I would donate my current nVidia card as well, if they accept it.

[ciaran.mooney]

I would donate my current nVidia card as well, if they accept it.

Email them and ask. You never know, maybe there is a developer that is part of the team that cannot work as effectively because they can't afford the card you have.

Every little helps.

[Sunnz]

Like their mailing list? Or is there a contact e-mail somewhere?

[canardo]

hope this goes ahead very close now :)

[ciaran.mooney]

Like their mailing list? Or is there a contact e-mail somewhere?

Yeah just join the mailing list and email saying that you have a card to donate.

Current total

769 people have signed up, 231 more needed

[seijuro]

super idea, pledged!

[Sunnz]

I don't know if this has been brought up here yet, but on an other forum I got a response like:would be cool to have accelerated linux gfx on the ps3 in linuxI think this raises an important point to those who may have thought the nVidia's binary driver is already 'good enough'.

[ciaran.mooney]

Many do think they are good enough. But otheres like those using PPC hardware with nVidia grahics cards are stuck.

There are many places where open drivers would help everyone, but people become placated as soon as they get it working for themselves.

Keeping everyone up to date
800 people have signed up, 200 more needed

200 is a very small number considering 800 have already signed up, if you havn't and were um'ing and ah'ing. Do you really need to spend that 7quid on a glossy linux mag? (If your in the UK that is)

[Sunnz]

Umm... anyone tried slashdot this?

[ciaran.mooney]

Umm... anyone tried slashdot this?

I know it has been digg'ed at the start, though another one may help seeing as we are near the end and it may provide more interest.

I've just submitted a story to Slashdot, hopefully it'll get accepted and finish this off once and for all.

Running total for those that care :

802 people have signed up, 198 more needed

[K.Mandla]

880 people have signed up, 120 more needed

=D>

[Brunellus]

congrats, ciaran, you made page 1 of slashdot.

[ciaran.mooney]

Jesus, you turn around for 5 mins and look what happens! :D

911 people have signed up, 89 more needed

I just checked the pledge and saw the quite large jump, came here and found from Brunellus that I made slashdot's home page.

Hopefully it will finish this once and for all, and I can finally stop checking the Pledge page every five mins to see if its changed.

Fingers crossed. Can't wait to fill in that paypal form sending the money in.

[ciaran.mooney]

Dammit its thats close that I'm tempted to sign it twice and donate $20!

[shining]

Did you read the comments on slashdot? I find them pretty negative:
http://linux.slashdot.org/linux/07/01/09/2026252.shtml

At least these two points:

1) The project doesn't want / need the money, and they might just give up given the difficulty of the task
2) It encourages nvidia to keep providing only binary drivers, and in the same time also gaining acceptance in the oss community thanks to open source drivers developed freely by other developers. So that it would be better to boycott nvidia products, and support intel ones.

[ciaran.mooney]

I did read the comments.

Most of the early comments are pretty negative, later on more free software thinking comments are made.

I do think it will unfortunatly encourage nVidia not to open source their drivers. I don't know when nVidia will open source their drivers, or if they ever will, but I am confident that this project will at some point make a decent 3D driver. For people like me who bought nVidia hardware before they realised the complete story these could be a godsend.

Hopefully it will allow 3D acceleration from installation of distros without having the GPL arguments that we currently have.

The project may not want the money, but it'll be theirs to use, and it would be better for them to have it than not. Its no-strings attached money, they can give it away to another project that they think needs it more than them. I would have no problem with that, but I want to try and help them because I want open nVidia graphics drivers, and if nVidia don't.

996 people have signed up, 4 more needed

So close.

I've been clicking refresh for the past few hours compulsively.

[ciaran.mooney]

998 people have signed up, 1 more needed

OOOOOOOOO

[ciaran.mooney]

Finally it is done

1,001 people have signed up (1 over target)

Wonder how its going to work out now..... Suppose thats another story though.

Ciaran

[K.Mandla]

Right on. =D>

[MetalMusicAddict]

This is meant as a honest question.

What exactly does 10k get the project? I can see buying some equipment but other then that, what? Its certainly not enough to pay someone for full-time development.

Also my worry is that the open drivers will be completely out-paced by the proprietary ones development-wise. Or is it unnecessary to have good support for new cards. It just seems like the situation will end up like this: People with new cards will have to use the nVidia drivers with new cards until they're supported by the open drivers. Yes/No?

All asked in good spirit.

[DoctorMO]

Well it's funny because once drivers have been developed up to a good standard; additions will become far easier and more developers will join in. it's a critical mass thing and the openness of the drivers makes them worthwhile.

[ciaran.mooney]

Also my worry is that the open drivers will be completely out-paced by the proprietary ones development-wise. Or is it unnecessary to have good support for new cards. It just seems like the situation will end up like this: People with new cards will have to use the nVidia drivers with new cards until they're supported by the open drivers. Yes/No?

Your right, the project will always be behind the official nVidia drivers, but as long as they can get 3D rendering working on a widely used card then a lot of people will never notice or care that there is a proprietary driver out there.

Having a shiny open 3D driver will stop a lot of problems to do with conflicts with the GPL, as most people don't have cutting edge graphics hardware on Linux and just want to use an open source product like Beryl/Compiz on an open source driver.

Also remember that nVidia can stop supporting any of their currently supported cards, with no real accountability. The open Nouveau driver will always be open and therefore will always support cards that are contained in the driver, and they will always be developed and improved. That is the beauty of open source.

I have also created a digg story, http://www.digg.com/linux_unix/10_000_Raised_for_Open_nVidia_driver_development about our accomplishment. Please Digg, this is great publicity for Linux.

Ciaran

[Sunnz]

The open Nouveau driver will always be open and therefore will always support cards that are contained in the driver, and they will always be developed and improved. That is the beauty of open source.Not trying to be mean or anything... but can you guarantee that??

[ciaran.mooney]

No. :)

But once the code is free then anyone can develop it. If Project Nouveau dies then someone else can take up where they left off. If your clever enough you can do your own development.

If nVidia dies, more than likely their code will die with them, or sell it to someone else. And that could be it. You'd be stuck with that driver and whatever it supported, bugs, security flaws and all.

[Sunnz]

The problem is... would anyone take over it? It seems like a very demanding job that only a few talented people can actually take on...

BTW, the slashdot article has made it to my inbox (web clip) just now, nice!!;)

[ciaran.mooney]

The problem is... would anyone take over it? It seems like a very demanding job that only a few talented people can actually take on...


Yes but can these few talented people take on the nVidia development if they choose? Not really they have to get employed by nVidia, and then they cannot disclose their code to the public.

With open code atleast the *possibility* is there, to me that is very important.

BTW, the slashdot article has made it to my inbox (web clip) just now, nice!!;)

Wow! Now that is cool! Hopefully get the attension of others who didn't know about the Pledge.

[yigal.weinstein]

Open source software can only be the beginning. Open source hardware is a necessary partner. I am probably too naive but it seems to me that the only way to create a just and equitable situation where freedom reigns supreme is both hardware and software "open source". I am not sure what this means though :D

[ciaran.mooney]

Open source software can only be the beginning. Open source hardware is a necessary partner. I am probably too naive but it seems to me that the only way to create a just and equitable situation where freedom reigns supreme is both hardware and software "open source". I am not sure what this means though :D

I suppose for things like x86 and PPC processors that they are open. I've never heard of a problem of processor compatibility......

Other things we can only hope.

Software can be written by pretty much anyone with the time to spare and the willingness to learn. Unfortunately hardware requires employee's, money and to a certain extent the ability and skill. Ie (and I mean no offence). A bloke with no hands is going to find it very difficult, and damn near impossible to construct the electronics that are used in simple appliances, let alone what we use in our computers currently.

[yigal.weinstein]

Software can be written by pretty much anyone with the time to spare and the willingness to learn - ciaran.mooney

I think what you wrote above is rather demeaning to software engineers. Good software and hardware are creatures that work together. It is not easy to make good software and it is not easy to make good hardware. To say that,

Unfortunately hardware requires employee's, money and to a certain extent the ability and skill

Why is this unfortunate? Do you think people should not be compensated for creating good work be it hardware or software? Believe it or not people need to eat and at present unless you live in a self sufficient commune, you are rich to begin with, or you are willing to steal or take from others one needs $ to live on this planet. If not $, then the necessary stuff $ "buys" i.e. resources a place to sleep, to eat, to live happily or at least without difficulty.

The last part of your post is hardly relevent but I will address it any way. You wrote,
A bloke with no hands is going to find it very difficult, and damn near impossible to construct the electronics that are used in simple appliances, let alone what we use in our computers currently.

What do you think makes most of the computers these days, at least the most intricate and important stuff? Robots. A man with a plan and no hands need not, with the right mind and opportunity, allow his physical anatomy diminish his creative self and can use robots to construct what 100 years ago a man with the most gifted of hands could not create.

[russell.h]

I think what you wrote above is rather demeaning to software engineers. Good software and hardware are creatures that work together. It is not easy to make good software and it is not easy to make good hardware.
He didn't say it was easy to make good software. He was simply pointing out that developing software requires much more easily obtainable knowledge and equipment than designing hardware.

How many people do you know who have written a computer program? How many people do you know who have designed an integrated circuit?

What do you think makes most of the computers these days, at least the most intricate and important stuff? Robots.
Once again, obviously if you are viewing these forums you have a computer with an internet connection, which is really all you will ever need to develop software (I know it is the only tool I have ever used not only for writing software, but for learning to do so). Other resources might help, but aren't really necessary.

But as you point out, computers these days are made by robots. I dont know about you, but personally I don't have any robots to spare right now (well I do, but they are both in a sad state of disrepair, and were never designed to manufacture electronics).

[yigal.weinstein]

He didn't say it was easy to make good software. He was simply pointing out that developing software requires much more easily obtainable knowledge and equipment than designing hardware.

How many people do you know who have written a computer program? How many people do you know who have designed an integrated circuit?

Just because people do more of one thing rather than another is no argument that that which is less done is more difficult. How many people do you know who make a living mowing grass? How many people do you know living in homes or apartments whose grounds are cut by lawn mowers. What is more difficult to do, mow the lawn or live in a home that has the lawn mowed?

Once again, obviously if you are viewing these forums you have a computer with an internet connection, which is really all you will ever need to develop software (I know it is the only tool I have ever used not only for writing software, but for learning to do so).

Time is a valuable resource. You may have been given the time to develop your software and other have been given their time also, but a computer is not the only thing one needs to develop software because time is needed and time is a resource.

But as you point out, computers these days are made by robots. I dont know about you, but personally I don't have any robots to spare right now (well I do, but they are both in a sad state of disrepair, and were never designed to manufacture electronics).

The open source community is a melting pot of highly intelligent, sometimes highly motivated, and sometimes highly ambitious people my main point is that the products we should be using should be understood and be a part of the community and not a part of a company that does not care about our interests.

The above is my primary point. The reason for me to stick with Linux and not Vista is not a hardware related issue but because I like to understand my tools. I also think when a tool is developed the rights of ownership should not be placed in the hands of those who made it but in the community, society, civilization that allowed for the creation.

Making an nvidia open source driver is just the beginning.

[Sunnz]

It is true that just any person can just write any software with an "connected" computer.

But to write quality software you need much, much more than that!!! E.g. books - not just programming books, also design, maths, engineering, etc.

[mrgnash]

I don't really see a point. The Nvidia drivers are so excellent to begin with.

[Mateo]

You nvidia people are spoiled, if this is your biggest worry :lol:

[mips]

You nvidia people are spoiled, if this is your biggest worry :lol:

Yeah, I feel for the ATI users.

I don't really see any benefits wrt this exercise.

[Brunellus]

Yeah, I feel for the ATI users.

I don't really see any benefits wrt this exercise.
vendor-independence, and software freedom. Good goals.

[mips]

vendor-independence, and software freedom. Good goals.

Fair enough but it will never attain the same level as the official drivers unless nvidia releases the technical/specification documents or the source code.

[Brunellus]

Fair enough but it will never attain the same level as the official drivers unless nvidia releases the technical/specification documents or the source code.
maybe, maybe not.

I'm ambivalent. I use what drivers work. when Free ones work well enough, I'll move to the free ones.

[Sunnz]

If this supports 3D Acceleration and all the goodies, not many people will go grab the official one, since this one could be included in Xorg when it is done.

[ciaran.mooney]

I think what you wrote above is rather demeaning to software engineers. Good software and hardware are creatures that work together. It is not easy to make good software and it is not easy to make good hardware. To say that,

Sorry, you may have gotten the wrong end of the stick there.

He didn't say it was easy to make good software. He was simply pointing out that developing software requires much more easily obtainable knowledge and equipment than designing hardware.[/quote[

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant.

[QUOTE=Sunnz;2097639]If this supports 3D Acceleration and all the goodies, not many people will go grab the official one, since this one could be included in Xorg when it is done.

Bingo! Nail on the head! Its hard enough now to get inexperienced users to install nVidia and Ati's closed drivers, if they get 3D acceleration working out of the box, and they don't notice any real performance issue. Then they will never even *think* about downloading nVidia's driver. In theory we will get more users, more eyes developing and a gradually improved driver.

I do hope the Nouveau drivers become useful, because one of the joys on installing a linux system most of the time is the fact you don't have to install drivers for everything. 3D graphics out-of-the-box with no intervention could quite possbily save linux companies hours in time installing graphics drivers.

[garba]

what about a pledge to build an hardware factory? a few million bucks should do to get started... :lolflag:

[yigal.weinstein]

what about a pledge to build an hardware factory? a few million bucks should do to get started... :lolflag:

I am not saying it will happen over night. But if we work together there will be ways to produce open source laptops and desktops.

The same rules of thumb that apply to software should apply to hardware.
http://www.opencollector.org/Whyfree/whyfree.html

It would not be 1 company but many working together to produce open source hardware. Do I think people should pledge $ for this. Absolutely not, and I am not saying that a free open source with gl, 3d etc. nvidia driver wouldn't be great I am simply saying that I am not willing to invest in this project because it is a very short term and compromised project.