Microsoft to Announce Linux Partnership

[plb]

http://online.wsj.com/public/article/SB116249026689311557-helTbrheLKgbaJ5iO5z40ZFCiOs_20061109.html?mod=blog s

[Reshin]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9540/colddayinhellxn0.jpg

[P_Badger]

If history has proven anything about micro$oft, it's that they only form partnerships to steal technology away from their partner. The two that I can say off the top of my head are Apple and IBM. If there's more, I'm not sure, but those two are pretty big.

[.t.]

I don't believe you, or that article for that matter.

[Bragador]

I just saw that on slashot 5 minutes ago and the first thing I said to myself out loud was "WTF !?!".

I still can't understand what's going on. This is the last thing I thought would happen.

But since it's a partnership with Suse it could mean they'll try to work against all the other distros. Also if somebody claims they are a monopoly they could ship a cd of Suse with computers that already have windows vista on them to shut them up.

That might be what's going to happen.

[plb]

It's on slashdot as well

[Kateikyoushi]

They make it easier to run both os on one machine but MS doesn't allow vista on virtual machines, so how are they going to make it easier than now ?

[professor_chaos]

If the story is real... I can't figure out what MS would want to do this. Most of what the linux community uses is already "open" for the "stealing" (open source).

Doesn't make any sense.

[aysiu]

It's on slashdot as well
By forging a peace pact with one seller of Linux, Microsoft could raise pressure on Red Hat Inc., the leading provider of Linux, and a Novell rival. Last week, Oracle Corp. announced that it would start selling its own support for Red Hat's version of Linux, a plan that undercuts Red Hat's own business, which is based on providing support and maintenance. Red Hat's shares fell sharply after that announcement. Sounds like divide and conquer to me.

[smoker]

depends what ms is ultimately after - you shouldnt let a fox in the henhouse cause one of the chickens take a shine!

[.t.]

They are only ever after one thing: capital.

[neoflight]

it suxs bigtime...will be sad to see *nux fleeing with the tail between its legs...

these parasitic attitude may result in:

1. slowly taking over the server market.
2. making the open source closed: initially for commercial applications and then for the personal use (kernel will remain open for long since an average user doesn't give a shift*)
3. create conflicts with the possible new "winlibs" with community-created-libs forcing us to stop using'em.
4. make us pay for dist-upgrades.
5. release cycle downgrading to 2 or more years.

for an unsuspecting average whatever-OS user, all he/she wants is an operating system that works. How much 'customizability' do one need? For many, customization is just some pull-down menus.

i even wonder if microshaft has a part in redhat getting screwed.

There is a huge difference between winning by exploiting the opponent's weaknesses and by being superior to the opponents, if i could go that far!

[professor_chaos]

Novell in the eyes of the linux community might then become the smelly kid nobody wants to sit next to.

[jbtito03]

WTF? .. hehe... not in this case.... :-k

If you take a closer look at Microsoft today and if you know the haloween documents u might get a clue....

I think, that microsoft is runnin out of steam. He needs support of the open source community to go beyond vista 2013 :D And the main factor is TIME... the open source community is gaining on everything much quicker than microsoft with the 1/10000000 of the budget.

So by takin partnerships with distros he may loose some marketshare but in the long term microsoft may thnik that it will bring him stability.

Anyway... i think that OPEN is the only way and that it is unstoppable.

What do you thnik? :D

Or like microsoft would say - where do you want to go today? :D

C ya

JB

[lotusleaf]

Everyone bookmark the Slashdot story regarding this current partnership and return to it six years from now. It should be interesting to compare what happens in that time to this partnership about six years ago:

CNN.com - Technology - Interview: Corel's Linux VP on the Microsoft deal - October 16, 2000 (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/TECH/computing/10/16/corel.linux.on.ms.idg/index.html)

Never forget!

[rfruth]

WinLinux anyone ?

[K.Mandla]

Novell in the eyes of the linux community might then become the smelly kid nobody wants to sit next to.
:lol:

[jpeddicord]

WinLinux anyone ?
Winux? :)

Or better yet.. Winux Vista.

[Redache]

This is pretty amusing. After the Halloween Documents you've thought Microsoft would've grown up slightly but this just shows how terrified they are of Linux. If Linux wasn't making big gains in the OS market Microsoft wouldn't have done this but it's obvious they see things collapsing pretty soon.

As for all of Linux's source code become proprietary...Not gonna happen. The only things that can go proprietary from this is the things Novell and Microsoft create, the kernel, GUI and Libraries can't be touched because of the GNU license surrounding them. It's like MS with the internet...They didn't think it'd get anywhere and then it smacked them in the face pretty quickly. Linux is just doing the same, far slower but it's still gaining in popularity and User Friendliness.

[Robert.Zapata]

Yeap.....

Microsoft is getting scared and they are aware that Linux is gaining a lot of Momentum..!!! They want a piece of the cake but it will be a small piece.

[23meg]

As for all of Linux's source code become proprietary...Not gonna happen. The only things that can go proprietary from this is the things Novell and Microsoft create, the kernel, GUI and Libraries can't be touched because of the GNU license surrounding them.Correct. The FOSS world will immediately turn their backs to Novell forever if that starts to happen.

[JayTee]

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/9540/colddayinhellxn0.jpg

Hahahaha!!!!! Great cartoon!!!

[pregoeater]

Im not sure what microsoft is after but they said they will support linux? if that is the case you may see more computer makers shipping computer with linux. i think we can gain more from microsoft then they can gain from linux.


Pre

[djsroknrol]

This is very interesting and I wonder what effect it will have on Linux in general.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061103/ap_on_hi_te/microsoft_novell_4

Besides the improvements to OO.o, I don't think that much more good would come from it myself....

[hizaguchi]

This is being discussed about 5 posts down the page. ;)

[Bragador]

There is already a discussion.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=291528

[darkhatter]

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=291564

I think it was badly labeled

[djsroknrol]

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=291564

I think it was badly labeled

Very bad title. I didn't read that post....sorry for the double post and mods feel free to delete this post if needed.

[Not the man I once was]

Greetings All,

I've taken a completely open stance on this, and considering posting my entire Weblog entry may be severely limiting everyone's reading ability for a single post, I'll simply provide a link to the entry on my website. It covers a quaint number of topics but ultimately I'm more for the co-operative approach overall. Remember, GNU/Linux will not replace Microsoft Windows, nor vice vera, no Operating System will replace another and ultimately GNU/Linux' aim, in my personal opinion is to provide compatiblity and transparency to industry standardisation through Open Standard Formats and coherence by all parties.

Apparently.

Either way, my Weblog entry can be found ***. Comments appreciated.

:)

Regards,

Not the man I once was

[djsroknrol]

Oh ye of little faith...:) I see some good comming from this union...OpenOffice would finally share and play well with MS Office....I for one can't wait for that....

MODS: I started a thread before I found this...feel free to delete that thread.

[joplass]

WTF? .. hehe... not in this case.... :-k

If you take a closer look at Microsoft today and if you know the haloween documents u might get a clue....

I think, that microsoft is runnin out of steam. He needs support of the open source community to go beyond vista 2013 :D And the main factor is TIME... the open source community is gaining on everything much quicker than microsoft with the 1/10000000 of the budget.

So by takin partnerships with distros he may loose some marketshare but in the long term microsoft may thnik that it will bring him stability.

Anyway... i think that OPEN is the only way and that it is unstoppable.

What do you thnik? :D

Or like microsoft would say - where do you want to go today? :D

C ya

JB

I agree with this assessment Linux has nothing to gain from M$ on the contrary. Gates keep out!

[Aranel]

Does it seem to anyone else like Microsoft's trying to, ultimately, mimic Apple's move with NEXTSTEP? Or am I missing something?

Either way, I wouldn't get too worried just yet. I can see some potential good coming out of this - and if not, that only gives "true" Linux users more of a reason to buckle down and blow Microsoft out of the water (not that it doesn't already, but... y'know). Novell will be rejected by the FOSS community if they go too far (and Ubuntu's archenemy along with it :p ), and we can only benefit from compatibility between MS Word and OpenOffice documents and other stuff like that.

Let's just see how this plays out. ;)

[mrgnash]

To me this is just a sign that MS now regards Linux on the Desktop as a large enough to pest to warrant squashing -- and this is phase #1 of their plan to do so.

[weasel fierce]

I cant imagine much good coming from this. Right about now, MS is lining up their lawyers

[ubuntu27]

I don't believe you, or that article for that matter.

Well, I didn't beleive until I saw the Novell's webpage:

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/

http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/webcast.html


It is true.

We are not in April first, aren't we?



Ah~ How can Novell do that to us?

Microsoft: How to remove Linux and replace with Windows: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/247804

[steven8]

I had d/l'd and burned the Suse discs, then tried Ubuntu first. I was going to go ahead and try Suse on another machine, but now I won't bother. I'll just stick with Ubuntu. I'd feel like a traitor to the Linux ideal.

Anybody need a set of small, silver frisbees?! :-)

[DigitalAxis]

Note that this partnership was apparently Novell's idea- they went to Microsoft, not the other way around. Accordingly, this agreement might have more to do with what Novell wants than what Microsoft wants. Alternatively, Microsoft might have used Novell's eagerness to their advantage and snuck in a couple things that only look innocuous.

Theoretically (THEORETICALLY) Microsoft could wreack havoc even without messing around with Linux libraries- which would be hard to do.

Step 1: Partner with an existing Linux distro, give it your blessing
Step 2: Remind businesses that only your favored distro is protected from patent liability, and therefore the others aren't 'safe'
Step 3: Sue everyone who's implemented things you patented (such as, any and all font antialiasing)

Please note, though, that attempting to close SuSE Linux or do any crazy things to it might violate the GPL, and as such Novell might not be allowed to do that. There is the GPLv2 for protection, here...

http://news.com.com/2061-10795_3-6132156.html
"If you make an agreement which requires you to pay a royalty to anybody for the right to distribute GPL software, you may not distribute it under the GPL," Moglen told CNET News.com Thursday. Section 7 of the GPL "requires that you have, and pass along to everybody, the right to distribute software freely and without additional permission."

<...>

Microsoft's pledge not to sue unpaid programmers is "no comfort at all," given the quantity of paid open-source programmers.

"I and my firm don't take comfort from statement from Microsoft that they won't sue programmers as long as they don't get paid," Moglen said. "We represent developers of free and open-source software. If Microsoft or anyone else attempts to sue our clients for doing what they do to create software, because they're being paid for it, then the people doing that will be sorry. We protect our clients."


Alternately, they could simply give us all these wonderful free APIs, and in five years when the agreement runs out sue EVERYONE who's using your patented tech (might be hard to do before the time is up)

Alternately, Microsoft may actually be in trouble with Novell- Novell has a LOT of patents of its own; they own the rights to the actual UNIX code that SCO claims they have (or something like that- I think the deal was SCO got to collect royalties; Novell owns System V Release 4) and this might be a way for Microsoft to circumvent losing tons of money to Novell. Who knows what Microsoft is using or planning on using?

Alternately, Microsoft may actually see Linux as a persistently growing software market they can't squash, so they might want to start selling us software.

Lastly, if this does come down to a legal war, Red Hat (another company! Hope they don't sell out) has its own small collection of patents it's acquired in case it gets sued... and there's also IBM. Which side they'll take, though... I think IBM was saying (according to Groklaw) that they liked this idea.

http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20061102175508403
"IBM is encouraged to see more industry endorsement of mixed source solutions that promote open standards and offer assurances to customers and open communities," said Steve Mills, Senior Vice President and Group Executive, IBM Software. "We are particularly glad to see Microsoft supporting interoperability with the industry standard Open Document Format. Open Documents give customers choice and help unlock broad industry creativity, allowing access to a new generation of innovative applications. Our view continues to be that interoperability and choice are key values that customers demand and deserve."

Either way, I'd say the next few months- as we find out what this deal actually means- will be very interesting to Linux as a whole.

[beameup]

I'll take a "wait and see" approach on this one, but given Microsoft's track record with "joint ventures", nothing good will come from it; unless of course you are a Microsoft shareholder. :???:

[KiwiNZ]

Well I am a Cups half full person.

I believe that has the potential of being very good for Linux. It could boost its image and acceptablility.

[Qrk]

I think its a great thing, at least from the information I've found. From Novell's Press release, it highlights several areas where the companies will look to interoperate.


Virtualization. Virtualization is one of the most important trends in the industry. Customers tell Microsoft that virtualization is one way they can consolidate and more easily manage rapidly growing server workloads and their large set of server applications. Microsoft and Novell will jointly develop a compelling virtualization offering for Linux and Windows.

Document format compatibility. Microsoft and Novell have been focusing on ways to improve interoperability between office productivity applications. The two companies will now work together on ways for OpenOffice and Microsoft Office system users to best share documents, and both will take steps to make translators available to improve interoperability between Open XML and OpenDocument formats.


I think Novell/Microsoft hit the nail on the head here. These are two areas where Linux is being prevented from breaking free on the corporate desktop, like it did in servers. (one problem --- what is microsoft getting return?)

Lastly, all you people about to revoke your support for Novell, please don't. Novell has been behind, supporting or founding some of the most exciting linux programs out there today. Xgl/Compiz, Beagle, F-spot etc, not to mention old favorites like Evolution. Novell also was the company that opened up SuSE, which used to be one of the worst commercial distros out there in terms of Freedom and free.

While I love Ubuntu, it is a home user OS first and foremost. Novell's SuSE probably offers the best hope of Linux breaking through to the corporate desktop... especially after their announcment today

[SunnyRabbiera]

I dont see harm in any patching between Linux and MS, I actually kind of trust novell as they were a large weapon against the software patent issue in europe.
Novell would not do anything underhanded as to limit comptition, if so they would have let the software patent thing slide.
I worry more about microsoft then I do novell, they are the wolf amoung the herd...

[Senak^2]

I worry more about microsoft then I do novell, they are the wolf amoung the herd...
I agree, for some reason I can't get this picture of my head: these hunters facing a group of pengiuns asking to be friends. They aren't holding up their rifles but have them easily accesible.

I just hope Novell knows what they're doing...

[steven8]

I'm not sure what to think. I just know that if you make a deal with the devil, it may be goodness and light for awhile, but in the end, the devil still takes your soul.

It just worries me.

[diepruis]

I don't trust this.

Remember, Microsoft said nothing about adopting the open document standard or releasing specifications. They are only working on compatibility betweeen SUSE and Windows.

This might translate into compatibility if the new code is released, but I'm not holding my breath. I get the feeling Microsoft is trying to gain trust in order to betray it.

What about "Embrace and Extend"? The strategy has worked so well for them in the past, perhaps they are trying it with *nix.

I definitely think that Microsoft finally sees GNU/Linux operating systems as a threat. Germany has outlawed Windows on government PCs with sensitive information and even my own country is starting to adopt it. They're starting to lose market share to Linuxes and they know it.

It's up to us to keep a close eye on this.

[hyper7]

Hmm, let's takea look at the people who really care about this. Alright, here we are in a nux forum talking the balls off of this story. Do you think the average windows user knows or cares? Is that going to change?

It would sem to me that microstuff is trying to keep a few people who are on the fenc(dual boot) in XP/Vista more often than linux. I can't see thiseffecting the casual user of either OS.

[diepruis]

I don't think this agreement is at that level either. It's probably more of an "overhead" thing.

[Old Pink]

I can see extreme hardware support on the horizon, but also huge changes in Linux itself. Hope they're good changes! :(

[hyper7]

I can see extreme hardware support on the horizon, but also huge changes in Linux itself. Hope they're good changes! :(
Wonderful dream. I really hope it comes true. :mrgreen:

[megamania]

Winux? :)

Or better yet.. Winux Vista.
WinTux?

[movies1978]

Looks like no more sueing Mono or Samba? Or am I wrong on this? It is stated in their openletter
http://www.novell.com/linux/microsoft/openletter.html

[diepruis]

Mono, OpenOffice and Samba

Under the patent agreement, customers will receive coverage for Mono, Samba, and OpenOffice as well as .NET and Windows Server.
All of these technologies will be improved upon during the 5 years of the agreement and there are some limits on the coverage that would be provided for future technologies added to these offerings.




It seems that only customers of Novell/Microsoft will benifit from this "limited coverage". I don't think this is the kind of compatibility we've been waiting for.

[steven8]

Mixed feelings over at the Suse forums as well. . .

http://www.suseforums.net/index.php?showtopic=26319&st=0

[SunnyRabbiera]

I can still work it though as I still have a .net account :D

[hobieone]

lokks like it true an article about this is now appearing on cnn.com i hoper this bodes well for linux in genral but then agin knowing microsoft they may be trying to pull something to stop the linux momentum. and it is for the betetr wonder how fast bill gates will come out of he so called retirement and take back the ceo position!

[qalimas]

While this won't make me use Windows, it does give me some respect for MS, and a lot more if they stay true to word here. What does MS gain? A lot of us not bashing them anymore, somewhat delaying their market loss that may come.

If they stay true, I'll respect them as a company, no doubt.

[hobieone]

should checkout what the ceo of linspire has to say about it he does have point about a problem concerning intelectual property that can emerge from this. here the link to read about it
http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter.php

[shawn_duggan]

Hi,

While relatively new to the world of open source I am not new to computing. I've long been a Microsoft developer (since VB3). But I have in the last year been playing with Linux a lot. At one time or another I've had installed Fedora, SuSe or Ubuntu, and played with a couple live CD's (Mepis, Knoppix). If not for my need of Visual Studio I may not have MS on any of my machines. I like Linux. I have a T23 I just bought on eBay coming that I plan to put Ubuntu on. I've also been thinking of trying Mono out and perhaps contributing back to the community.

I can't quite understand how Novell's deal with MS may impact other distro's and open source developers in general from a patent perspective. Can anyone help clarify this for me? Thank you.

[ago]

I am not a lawyer, so correct me if I am wrong, this is how I see it

Unless you enter into a bilateral agreement with MS you are under legal threat

"If a customer says, 'Look, do we have liability for the use of your patented work?' Essentially, If you're using non-SUSE Linux, then I'd say the answer is yes," Ballmer said.

If you enter into a bilateral agreement you cannot use your patents against MS

Competing Linux vendors "are certainly welcome to get involved to quickly provide these covenants not to sue," he said. These vendors have other incentives besides pressure from their customers and the worry about legal action, Ballmer noted.

That means you cannot help other Linux companies against IP challenges

Each agreement knocks off a few patents (it is not a chance that Novell was picked)

Who is not to going to enter into any agreement? The kernel developers, debian, all the voluntaries, i.e. the heart of the OSS. Those will become more and more vulnerable with each agreement.

MS may have some of the partner pay for supposed MS IP royalties on Linux and this would be a precedent.

Moreover I understand Novell will help porting Linux apps to Windows, but it does not look like MS will do likewise...

If MS really wanted to collaborate, they could simply stick to open standards and formats...

[aysiu]

Here's an interesting take on the new partnership. It's by the author of "Linux is not Windows":

MS & Novell - the opposite of what you think? (http://geekblog.oneandoneis2.org/index.php/2006/11/03/ms_aamp_novell_the_opposite_of_what_you)

[DoctorMO]

By creating confusion, fear and dout Microsoft aim to slow down the adoption and create a frame with in which they will hurt open source companies. although most of this is hot air.

As a x developer of visual basic all the way from vb 3 through to vb 6 I can say 'thank god I don't do that any more' because there is nothing worse than realising that all your efforts, all your code is tied to one company and the formats in which you've written your ideas, the very canvas on which you've painted is someone elses and is something you can never own and never have control of.

So I moved to Linux, Perl, Python, C and Java and use Text editors. I quite like vi now and have been doing it for years. I've because quite skilled in open source languages. the best part is that I know the language will always be available to me.

[aysiu]

Hi,

While relatively new to the world of open source I am not new to computing. I've long been a Microsoft developer (since VB3). But I have in the last year been playing with Linux a lot. At one time or another I've had installed Fedora, SuSe or Ubuntu, and played with a couple live CD's (Mepis, Knoppix). If not for my need of Visual Studio I may not have MS on any of my machines. I like Linux. I have a T23 I just bought on eBay coming that I plan to put Ubuntu on. I've also been thinking of trying Mono out and perhaps contributing back to the community.

I can't quite understand how Novell's deal with MS may impact other distro's and open source developers in general from a patent perspective. Can anyone help clarify this for me? Thank you.
I've merged this with the other active Microsoft/Novell thread.

[AlphaMack]

Microsoft should not be trusted. After all, there was this back in July:

Microsoft COO Lashes Out At Linux, Google (http://www.crn.com/sections/breakingnews/breakingnews.jhtml?articleId=190400046&cid=CRNBreakingNews)

[ade234uk]

There are two things that can come out of this partnership

1) The partnership raises Novells profile and also Linux in general, if it needs any at the moment!!

Larger companies, manufacturers see the potential of Linux and slowly start to support it with drivers, software & support, which should raise the profile of Ubuntu as well. This has got to be a good thing

Everyone is happy!! Microsoft do what they say are going to do

OR

2) Everyone is Open Source community turns their back on Novell, Microsoft buys Novell out as they see Linux as a threat to Microsoft. Novell is slowly but quietly dropped.

Who knows what will happen. If number 1 happens and it improves support for all Linux distros, raises the profile without ruining the community and keeping with the Open Source principles then is this good?

[Ramses de Norre]

I've read this in the paper this morning and didn't find it at the forums yet:
Link. (http://blogs.zdnet.com/Gardner/index.php?p=2369)

[jordilin]

Yes, I've seen it somewhere else. Compatibility between systems is crucial and in my opinion if this is going to favour Linux I welcome it.

[fuscia]

i wonder if suse will now be an option on new pcs and laptops.

[GStubbs43]

i wonder if suse will now be an option on new pcs and laptops.

Dell is doing http://www.dell.com/linux 8)

[jordilin]

Dell is doing http://www.dell.com/linux 8)

But it seems they offer dell Linux only for servers
Dell offers a wide range of innovative Linux solutions, including the latest from Red Hat® and Novell® SUSE® running on Dell PowerEdgeTM servers and Dell/EMC storage.

[OffHand]

Already discussed here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=291564

and here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=292260

;)

[fuscia]

Already discussed here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=291564

and here: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=292260

;)

but, part of the fun of internet forums is the running of a topic into the ground.

[Kindred]

but, part of the fun of internet forums is the running of a topic into the ground.

hey, I hear linux isn't ready for the dektop.

[EdThaSlayer]

Microsoft acknowledges the critical role that open source plays today in enterprise IT infrastructure.

Microsoft?Acknowledges?
:eek: I wonder.

[fuscia]

hey, I hear linux isn't ready for the dektop.

gnome's ready. you must be thinking of kde.

[GStubbs43]

But it seems they offer dell Linux only for servers


It's still a start ;) \
edit: these (http://www.dell.com/content/products/compare.aspx/desktops_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd) aren't servers are they? They come with freedos instead of windows.

[Ramses de Norre]

I've heard that you can at least buy pc's without an OS from dell when you order them by phone.
Haven't done so myself yet though.

[23meg]

If Linux weren't ready for the desktop, Microsoft wouldn't be supporting it.

[ade234uk]

There are two things that can happen with this partnership.

1) It raises awarness of Linux. Manufacturers, Sotware companies slowly start to support Linux as they can see it is the next big thing. If the end product is better support for hardware then this has got to be a win win situation for all. We all know and we are all frustrated with the current lack of support. Imagine being able to buy a product that is supported out the box.

OR

2) Microsoft with their power and money Gobble Novell up and then quietly but slowly push Novell Linux in to the background.
The open source community turns its back on Novell. We are then back to square one.

What I want to ask is why M$ is interested in colloboration? Whats the deal, what are they up to, what will they get out of it.

[Shay Stephens]

What I want to ask is why M$ is interested in colloboration? Whats the deal, what are they up to, what will they get out of it.

Look at their "partnership" with IBM over OS/2. Look at their "partnership" with manufacturers of MP3 players that run PlaysForSure. Those two examples alone will show that they are after one thing. A vampiric draining of knowledge to make their own product that will then shut out the previous "partners" and detroy the products they were "partnering" on...

They are after the goal to kill Linux in favor of their own version that they need as their replacement to windows which is now at a dead end. It may take a couple of years to mature, but expect the worst. And I believe Microsoft patents will play a large part of their ploy and attack strategy. Only their version of "linux" will be free from patent lawsuits.

Behold the next RIAA of the computer world...

[az]

This collaboration has little to do with the linux desktop. It has to do with the enterprise server market, mostly.

That means the infrastructure a company uses for their internal database, mail and calendering, etc...

I find it a big deal that Microsoft is ackowldgeing linux. I don't find amusing what they are saying about their patents, though. Saying that they will not leverage their patents on non-commercial entities is ******** - that's meaningless. You don't sue someone who has no money.

Also, saying that you will not leverage your patents against anyone who uses Suse is as good as saying that they will use them against everybody else.

So, I am waiting patiently to see where this is going.

[deanlinkous]

I think it is basically a way for MicroNov to create a linux that is, for all practical purposes proprietary.

I think that MS believe they can make novell the de facto standard commercial linux in five years using shared technology that other linux(s) will not be able to use. Also MS will use IP/Patent threats to keep any business from choosing anything besides novell linux. Then in five years MS will really only have one linux company to destroy at that time.

Novell thinks that with MS help it can become the de facto standard linux in five years and then go head to head with MS.

[weasel fierce]

But it seems they offer dell Linux only for servers

They do offer what they call "open source ready" computers, which basically is without an OS (except for a copy of freedos or whatever its called)

They're pretty high end stuff too, though to my knowledge, they only come with ATI video cards

[jongkind]

I found this very interesting:

http://www.linux-watch.com/news/NS9843352777.html

[Gargamella]

I was zapping on tv when on bbcworld they were talking about it.
Surprised and happy ;D

[TLE]

During my time in Linux I've been seeing a lot of "I just need to get this last app running/replaced in Linux then Windows is going bye bye". If this partner-ship means that eventually there will be better support for windows apps in Linux then that would be a good thing. The downside of course is that the programs or libs giving this, might not be open source and something you would have to pay for.

[diepruis]

The downside of course the program or libs giving this might not be opensource and something you would habe to pay for.

If libs like these are released and they make my games work, I'd pay for them. Of course, that could discourage developers from making "native" Linux games that rely on open source libs instead. The ideal situation would be an open source implementation of DirectX. But hey, what's the odds of that happening.

[ago]

But hey, what's the odds of that happening.
It is happening, in wine...
http://www.winehq.com/site/status_directx

[Magnes]

The ideal situation would be an open source implementation of DirectX. But hey, what's the odds of that happening.

100%? WINE and Cedega are doing this, so you can say that there is already an os implementation of DirectX (incomplete but there is).

[ago]

I am not a lawyer, so correct me if I am wrong, this is how I see it

Unless you enter into a bilateral agreement with MS you are under legal threat



If you enter into a bilateral agreement you cannot use your patents against MS



That means you cannot help other Linux companies against IP challenges

Each agreement knocks off a few patents (it is not a chance that Novell was picked)

Who is not to going to enter into any agreement? The kernel developers, debian, all the voluntaries, i.e. the heart of the OSS. Those will become more and more vulnerable with each agreement.

MS may have some of the partner pay for supposed MS IP royalties on Linux and this would be a precedent.

Moreover I understand Novell will help porting Linux apps to Windows, but it does not look like MS will do likewise...

If MS really wanted to collaborate, they could simply stick to open standards and formats...


I read it correctly...

Now Red Hat offers protection to its clients against IP lawsuits... Obviously if they feel the need to do so, it means that the environment has heated up... Thanks to Novell and the others that signed such great bilateral agreements...

http://software.silicon.com/applications/0,39024653,39163841,00.htm

[lassegs]

I dont like this one bit. I see SLED package maintainers fleeing. What should we ubuntu-folks do?

[steven8]

Does that mean using Wine is illegal, if you haven't paid Microsoft for the rigths?

[ago]

Nothing is illegal unless so proven in court. But the issues are

1) Not only Wine is involved. The IP challenges go far beyond that, from mono (and they have a patent agreement with Novell...) , to OO (and they have a patent agreement with Sun...), possibly including various other techonologies used on Linux desktops...
2) MS does not need to sue, FUD is enough. Would you use FOSS if you could be sued? Would you be developing FOSS if you could be sued?

PS legal challenges/FUD is the only real weapon MS has against Linux, since it cannot buy it.

[diepruis]

It is happening, in wine...
http://www.winehq.com/site/status_directx

0_o now how on earth did I forget about Wine? Somedays I leave my brain at home...

I dont like this one bit. I see SLED package maintainers fleeing. What should we ubuntu-folks do?

I don't like this either, but what can we do? Organising open source people is like training kittens.

2) MS does not need to sue, FUD is enough. Would you use FOSS if you could be sued? Would you be developing FOSS if you could be sued?

If it ever comes to this, I imagine devs would go underground. At least, I hope they do and don't stop working alltogether.

[dca]

Hmmm, the only thing we can hope for is that M$ learned from the SCO v. IBM case and decides to lay off... I agree with most, from the outside looking in, it appears the only Linux distro you're free to use (and not get sued by M$) is SuSE.

[diepruis]

I agree with most, from the outside looking in, it appears the only Linux distro you're free to use (and not get sued by M$) is SuSE.

Yes, and that is very frightening indeed. It seems that Microsoft can divide us with extreme ease. Perhaps the time has come in their minds to wipe GNU/Linux off the face of the earth? Not that I think they'll succeed, but perhaps they'll try anyway...

[InfernalPenguin]

I just read that article and i cant find the words to express how i feel. Even if i did, admin of this forum would probably ban me for life if i wrote them here. i hate it. ***** Microsoft ,****** Steve Ballmer.... i got to go have a beer. :mad: :evil:

[ago]

It's the usual "either with us or against us". Amazing that "Linux" companies then try to make the "with us" agreement look as a progress for Linux...

[InfernalPenguin]

It's the usual "either with us or against us". Amazing that "Linux" companies then try to make the "with us" agreement look as a progress for Linux...

well said

[psycosmyth]

I got tired of SUSE crashing, I switched to Ubuntu, just as well.
I think it's just the "I want Novell" thing.

[sandsicle]

Hey,

I'm a law student planning to write a paper on the possible legal implications on open source software of the recent deal between Microsoft and Novell. I use Ubuntu, but I don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge of a lot of the inner workings of software and what the deal could really end up affecting as far as open source software goes.

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on what you think could happen as a result of this deal? I know lots of people are skeptical from other things I've seen around these forums...

Thanks!
Sandra

[aysiu]

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on what you think could happen as a result of this deal? I've merged your thread with about 98 other thoughts.

Happy reading!

[Najand]

They are aiming to get rid of the Linux Enterprise Market. The biggest CD copier company (M$) just thinks about money and nothing else.

[hinne]

Hey,

I'm a law student planning to write a paper on the possible legal implications on open source software of the recent deal between Microsoft and Novell. I use Ubuntu, but I don't have a whole lot of technical knowledge of a lot of the inner workings of software and what the deal could really end up affecting as far as open source software goes.

Anyway, does anyone have any thoughts on what you think could happen as a result of this deal? I know lots of people are skeptical from other things I've seen around these forums...

Thanks!
Sandra

I think a lot could happen, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

1. First of all, Novell could well be in breach of the GPL. I am not a lawyer, but as a normal lay person I fail to see how the patent stipulations that MS is putting on an individual developer (which you can get from the MS site) can be reconciled with the GPL. That means a number of things: (i) others in the community cannot in good faith accept contributions from Novell developers since they can be / are patent encumbered, and (ii) SLED, if found in breach of the GPL is in a real legal bind and will probably become nonviable as an operating system. Not enough detail has emerged as of yet to determine which is which.

2. Since we are dealing with patents and the deal does not have to disclose which patents are involved (apperently), it is only possible to make some guesses until someone gets sued and we get into discovery. If the SCO case is anything to go by, the FUD meisters will postpone discovery (and clarification of claims) as long as is humanly possible.

3. The deal has allowed MS to start speaking of 'licensed' and 'unlicensed' Linux (for want of a better term, one could say that SLES users are now using 'Linux Genuine Advantage' and the rest of us are pirates). Again, it is too early to say how this will play out in detail, but it is interesting to note that all this hinges on software patents, which are to my knowledge not universally recognised (the EU doesn't allow them).

I think from a political perspective, this was perfectly timed to work on the European Commission (in particular Neelie Smit Kroes), who is currently having MS under investigation for monopoly practices and failure to publish interoperability materials for other OSes. There is also still the corpse of the software patent legislation to revive in the EU--expect both Novell and MS to be breathing some life into this over the next few months.

Just some 2c.

[ago]

3. The deal has allowed MS to start speaking of 'licensed' and 'unlicensed' Linux

Yeah, that is the best part. Thanks to Novell, now MS is playing the role of the authority who can say which Linux is 'licensed'...

It makes me want to puke...

[InfernalPenguin]

Yeah, that is the best part. Thanks to Novell, now MS is playing the role of the authority who can say which Linux is 'licensed'...

It makes me want to puke...

Every1 say: "THANK YOU NOVELL" ](*,)

[FineE]

I think a lot could happen, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

1. First of all, Novell could well be in breach of the GPL. I am not a lawyer, but as a normal lay person I fail to see how the patent stipulations that MS is putting on an individual developer (which you can get from the MS site) can be reconciled with the GPL. That means a number of things: (i) others in the community cannot in good faith accept contributions from Novell developers since they can be / are patent encumbered, and (ii) SLED, if found in breach of the GPL is in a real legal bind and will probably become nonviable as an operating system. Not enough detail has emerged as of yet to determine which is which.

2. Since we are dealing with patents and the deal does not have to disclose which patents are involved (apperently), it is only possible to make some guesses until someone gets sued and we get into discovery. If the SCO case is anything to go by, the FUD meisters will postpone discovery (and clarification of claims) as long as is humanly possible.

3. The deal has allowed MS to start speaking of 'licensed' and 'unlicensed' Linux (for want of a better term, one could say that SLES users are now using 'Linux Genuine Advantage' and the rest of us are pirates). Again, it is too early to say how this will play out in detail, but it is interesting to note that all this hinges on software patents, which are to my knowledge not universally recognised (the EU doesn't allow them).

I think from a political perspective, this was perfectly timed to work on the European Commission (in particular Neelie Smit Kroes), who is currently having MS under investigation for monopoly practices and failure to publish interoperability materials for other OSes. There is also still the corpse of the software patent legislation to revive in the EU--expect both Novell and MS to be breathing some life into this over the next few months.

Just some 2c.


My read is that the patent deal between Novell and Microsoft can be reconciled with the GPL as long as anyone who directly or indirectly legally obtains the code in question from Novell in indemnified.

To give an example lets say A creates a program under the GPL and distributes it to B and C. B obtains a patent license from Microsoft and distributes the code directly or indirectly to B1, B2, ..etc. If B and everyone who has obtained the code from B by choice choose not to distribute the code to C or A the Microsoft can still sue C and A with no GPL violation. The trouble for Microsoft is that this is a big if, and given the nature of the GPL and FLOSS the Novell indemnified code will so widespread the it may be next to impossible to show that a particular GNU/Linux distribution does not contain the indemnified code. By the way all that would be required is that the developers see the source code and “get” the “patented idea” from it.

So Balmer is right to say that if you are not running SUSE Linux, you are in violation of Microsoft's Intellectual property, there is only one detail; namely that in a short period of time most if not all GNU/Linux distributions will be considered derivatives of SUSE Linux for the purpose of the Microsoft patents. The GPL will turn around an bite Microsoft hard.

Just my 2 cents not a legal opinion.

[hinne]

I think where youre scenario goes wrong is that it is by no means clear that B can redistribute to B1 etc at all after getting a patent license. That is the 'clause 7' of the GPL people talk about.

It says:" If, as a consequence of a court judgment or allegation of patent infringement or for any other reason (not limited to patent issues), conditions are imposed on you (whether by court order, agreement or otherwise) that contradict the conditions of this License, they do not excuse you from the conditions of this License. If you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously your obligations under this License and any other pertinent obligations, then as a consequence you may not distribute the Program at all. For example, if a patent license would not permit royalty-free redistribution of the Program by all those who receive copies directly or indirectly through you, then the only way you could satisfy both it and this License would be to refrain entirely from distribution of the Program."

It all comes down to the 'if you cannot distribute so as to satisfy simultaneously' and that is unclear now in Novell's case since we don't know which patents are involved but it would seem that there is some sort of royalty payment involved on Novell's part.

MS wants contributors to Opensuse meet the following requirements: "(i) Your Original Work becomes part of SUSE Linux, SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop or SUSE Linux Enterprise Server, and (ii) You ensure that as a result of Your contribution, openSUSE.org, and all further recipients of Your Original Work, do not receive any licenses, covenants or any other rights under any Microsoft intellectual property." (see http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/community.mspx). Of this, (i) is impossible to guarantee (since Novell might not like my work enough to include it in SLES/D). I'm not quite sure as to what (ii) means in this context.

[sandsicle]

Well, after reading all of your comments (thank you so much!), here is the paper topic description I'm submitting. We'll see what I come up with :) Feel free to let me know if I missed anything or if I misunderstand anything.....

I plan to write my paper on the legal implications of the deal struck between Microsoft and Novell. The key portions of the deal involve working together on document format compatibility, virtualization, and web services for servers in order to make it easier for customers to use Windows and SUSE together for their server needs. As a result of the deal, Microsoft will agree not to assert its patent rights against customers using SUSE or covered Novell products. Novell will agree not to assert its patent rights against customers using Microsoft.

The response to this announcement by the open source community is mixed. Interoperability is necessary for open source software to thrive, but Microsoft's legal motivations are questionable. Some people suggest that one purpose of this agreement for Microsoft is to prevent antitrust actions. Others suggest that Microsoft is using this deal in order to be able to distribute SUSE as a “licensed linux” in order to squeeze other versions out of the market, with an eventual goal of using its “embrace, extend, extinguish” strategy to eliminate or limit the use of linux. Microsoft promises not to bring patent actions against noncommercial developers and this has certain implications for the types of patent actions which may be brought against commercial linux distributors and supporters, such as Red Hat. There is also a much debate over whether clause 7 of the GPL prohibits Novell from making this deal or limits some of the promised concessions by Novell.

My strategy for the paper will be to examine the stated motivations and the possible underlying motivations of Microsoft and Novell individually to determine the legal implications of the deal for each company and for open source software as a whole. I also plan to determine whether the deal is legal under the GPL and any applicable laws.

[23meg]

On Thursday I'll be attending a talk to be given by Bill Hilf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Hilf), Microsoft's general manager of platform strategy, who apparently has a background in the FOSS community as well, titled "Microsoft's Perspective and Overview on open source". If any of you have questions to Mr. Hilf about these issues (I do) I can direct them to him and get back to you with his answers.

[FineE]

I think where youre scenario goes wrong is that it is by no means clear that B can redistribute to B1 etc at all after getting a patent license. That is the 'clause 7' of the GPL people talk about. ...



Then that means that Novell cannot distribute the GPL and LGPL components of SUSE. The trouble is that if Novell does distribute SUSE it is representing that it can in particular under section 6 of the GPL there is an implicit grant of license without additional restrictions other that those in the GPL to the customer.

"6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License."

Microsoft can put what they want on thier website

http://www.microsoft.com/interop/msnovellcollab/community.mspx

but if they sue anyone who got the code from Novell then there is the potential of a major counter claim against Novell, even a class action.

[TLE]

Well, after reading all of your comments (thank you so much!), here is the paper topic description I'm submitting. We'll see what I come up with :) Feel free to let me know if I missed anything or if I misunderstand anything.....

I plan to write my paper on the legal implications of the deal struck between Microsoft and Novell. The key portions of the deal involve working together on document format compatibility, virtualization, and web services for servers in order to make it easier for customers to use Windows and SUSE together for their server needs. As a result of the deal, Microsoft will agree not to assert its patent rights against customers using SUSE or covered Novell products. Novell will agree not to assert its patent rights against customers using Microsoft.

The response to this announcement by the open source community is mixed. Interoperability is necessary for open source software to thrive, but Microsoft's legal motivations are questionable. Some people suggest that one purpose of this agreement for Microsoft is to prevent antitrust actions. Others suggest that Microsoft is using this deal in order to be able to distribute SUSE as a “licensed linux” in order to squeeze other versions out of the market, with an eventual goal of using its “embrace, extend, extinguish” strategy to eliminate or limit the use of linux. Microsoft promises not to bring patent actions against noncommercial developers and this has certain implications for the types of patent actions which may be brought against commercial linux distributors and supporters, such as Red Hat. There is also a much debate over whether clause 7 of the GPL prohibits Novell from making this deal or limits some of the promised concessions by Novell.

My strategy for the paper will be to examine the stated motivations and the possible underlying motivations of Microsoft and Novell individually to determine the legal implications of the deal for each company and for open source software as a whole. I also plan to determine whether the deal is legal under the GPL and any applicable laws.

Looks fine (I should say that I don't know anything about law) lets see the paper and the comments you got from your teacher on it when you're done.

[ago]

To give an example lets say A creates a program under the GPL and distributes it to B and C. B obtains a patent license from Microsoft and distributes the code directly or indirectly to B1, B2, ..etc. If B and everyone who has obtained the code from B

If the code written by A is in violation of IP rights, GPL does not protect A or its direct/indirect users, since the IP violation precedes the distribution of the software. In such situation, Microsoft is free to sue anyone they want except B and their customers (with which they have bilateral agreements). The fact that B redistributes under GPL does not help to clear the original violation of A. Simply put, the code in question should have never been distributed under GPL. And that is exactly the claim. The fact that B distributed under GPL does not change anything, it simply implies that GPL has to be cancelled for that code and B clients get free royalties from MS, while all other clients are screwed. MS did not write a contract where they say that Novell can distribute patented material under GPL. They simply wrote that they are not going to sue Novell customers, which is a completely different story...

Novell has failed us in 3 respects:

1) they will not be able to guarantee legal support to LINUX (not their OWN users, but LINUX)

2) by the pure fact that they ask for legal protection they demonstrate that Linux technology is not "clean" and it is at risk of lawsuits. I.E. they are spreading FUD

3) by the fact that they seek protection from ONE company, they demonstrate that ONE company has the IP over Linux technologies. I.E. they give the authority to that company over Linux. That ONE company happens to be Microsoft. MS now claims to be the one who can say who should use Linux and how.

[FineE]

... MS did not write a contract where they say that Novell can distribute patented material under GPL. They simply wrote that they are not going to sue Novell customers, which is a completely different story...



Without reading the secret agreement between Novell and Microsoft how do we know that?

A third party that obtains GPL code from Novell has a legitimate reason to believe that Novell is legally entitled to distribute such code under the GPL. If it turns out that Novell does not have the right to distribute the code under the GPL then my understanding is that ihis can get real ugly for Novell and even Microsoft. After all Microsoft was well aware that many of the covered products were being distributed under the GPL when they entered into this agreement. This much we do know.

[ubuntu27]

What a complicated matter.
I just wish everything will be alright for us GNU/Linux, OpenSource, and Free Software Users.

[Craftycorner]

I got a sneakin' ugly suspicion that GNU/Linux, OpenSource, and Free Software Users are gonna be sittin' along side file swappers and digital pirates and Microsoft will become Big Brother.

[speeddemon8803]

Windows...Linux...partnering up? WHAT THE ****?! dude this is NUTS! I will not have anything to do with microshaft or winblows...if they are trying to come on the linux market...they best be ready for sure hell to come after....that will soooo smoke bills wallet.

[Craftycorner]

This and globalization...baaad

[Sunnz]

So... what's the matter? Wouldn't this help FOSS developers:

Balmer, "You infringed our ideas!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "No, that code is for OpenSuSE."

Balmer, "It is in Ubuntu as well!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "Duh, it is GPL."

Balmer, "Damn this cancer license!!! Cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer!!!"

[diepruis]

So... what's the matter? Wouldn't this help FOSS developers:

Balmer, "You infringed our ideas!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "No, that code is for OpenSuSE."

Balmer, "It is in Ubuntu as well!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "Duh, it is GPL."

Balmer, "Damn this cancer license!!! Cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer!!!"

LOL!

[Sslaxx]

So... what's the matter? Wouldn't this help FOSS developers:

Balmer, "You infringed our ideas!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "No, that code is for OpenSuSE."

Balmer, "It is in Ubuntu as well!!!"

FOSS-Dev, "Duh, it is GPL."

Balmer, "Damn this cancer license!!! Cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer, cancer!!!"
You forgot the chair throwing and threatening to kill someone!

[th2]

Okay, here's the deal. This could be Microsoft's attempt to poison the well so to speak. It is simple really: Team up with one company with "goodwill" in mind and allow "interoperability" (yeah, that's the ticket...).

However, here is what could happen. For starters, we could see people distance themselves from SuSE. Next, when that distro goes away and Novell becomes a lapdog of MS per se, then another company could be targeted.

Each time, the cash offer is enticing, and each time, other Linux users will migrate away from that distribution until there are only a handful left, in which case, MS can then use their normal methods of destroying any potential competition. That's my two cents worth folks. It is a possible scenario: nothing more, nothing less.

Keep in mind that we are talking about the same company who put out their WGA spyware (yes, it was spyware, and is still spyware) and is also a company who assists in promoting communism by doing business with China. Think about that one for a moment.....

[diepruis]

Each time, the cash offer is enticing, and each time, other Linux users will migrate away from that distribution until there are only a handful left

You have to keep in mind that Linux distros will just keep popping up like weeds. Besides, can you really see Debian accepting this deal? No way.

Keep in mind that we are talking about the same company who put out their WGA spyware (yes, it was spyware, and is still spyware) and is also a company who assists in promoting communism by doing business with China. Think about that one for a moment.....

LOL! They're actually promoting capitalism with the whole China deal. See, China actually had GNU/Linux on most of their PCs. Linux is mostly an anarchistic operating system, but it can be seen as more communist than capitalist. Microsoft actually forced them to start installing Windows, therefore promoting capitalism. Here's my reference: http://blog.lobby4linux.com/index.php?/archives/67-The-Peoples-Republic-of-China-IS-OwNeD.html

[TLE]

Can we please save the political discussions for somewhere else. I don't think it is appropriate in this sub forum.

BTW there's an article (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/18/1838229&from=rss) on slashdot on a recent development that may be a consequences of this deal. Check it out.

[diepruis]

BTW there's an article (http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/11/18/1838229&from=rss) on slashdot on a recent development that may be a consequences of this deal. Check it out.

That's disgusting. I don't want VB or anything even remotely related to it anywhere near me.