XUBUNTU 2 the revenge

[rpm]

this is my last post of the previous topic, i post it here too as a new topic because I think that some suggestions could be taken into consideration for Breezy, at least in my opinion.

thank you for your attention

rpm

my post:

I think that is good to leave ubuntu and kubuntu separate cousins but may be really there is no need for another spi-off, xubuntu or what.

And yes this could be confusing for newbies, I agree.

But I don't think the right answer is to leave too more choices for the Desktop Environment for 3 reasons:

- this could ends up in a mandrakelinux style distro with many WMs but without too much attention for the alternative desktops included

- the 1 cd couldn't have enough space to enclose the other WMs and I think is good to mantain the base system on one cd which is more comfortable, cheap and easy for the ship it system to deliver (and for Canonical too); xfce instead is only a few megs fat and easy to be included

- GNOME and KDE remains the 2 main DE, but are not so good for older systems and the best alternative DE at present time seems to be XFCE, is quick and works good and is good to remain focused on the best option available.
Including Xfce is the answer for older systems and should be available out of the box, this will help new users to access ubuntu' world and help recycle older pcs running it.

This could be of help for third-world countries against the digital divide and coherent with the spirit of ubuntu linux.

I think that XFCE should be supported as an alternative desktop both for ubuntu and kubuntu.

This could be integrated in the install process directly leaving the choice to the user to install it as the main DE, and should be integrated in the 1 cd, this is an important point.

Try to imagine download another DE with a modem..

I think too that it should be available in the start up of the live-cd too.

good bye

rpm

[az]

There are several derivatives being deleoped, including a micro ubunto for low-end systems.

[totalshredder]

There are several derivatives being deleoped, including a micro ubunto for low-end systems.
Now that sounds really good. Almost everyone I want to give ubuntu out to has an old computer that they aren't using; but ubuntu as of now is resource hogging, so let's hope it comes out someday :)

Luke

[Jesus Franco]

A menu can be added durning the installation as follows.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Chose your preferd Desktop Envoirnment
-Gnome (Defualt Ubuntu)
-Kde (The Kubuntu variant) *requires an internet connection*
-XFCE (The Xubuntu variant) *requires an internet connection*

If you do not know witch to pick skip this step.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

[telmo]

Yep! Or you can just delete KDE and Gnome and keep XFCE... O:)

[rpm]

A menu can be added durning the installation as follows.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~

Chose your preferd Desktop Envoirnment
-Gnome (Defualt Ubuntu)
-Kde (The Kubuntu variant) *requires an internet connection*
-XFCE (The Xubuntu variant) *requires an internet connection*

If you do not know witch to pick skip this step.

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~
You missed the point.

In a poor land with old pcs and dial-up modem connection is better to have DIRECTLY THE ON THE CD the option to choose xfce (which is only a few mbytes) instead of the default desktop environment (gnome for ubuntu and kde for kunbuntu).

This is to provide a solution out of the box for older pcs.

bye

rpm

[ozamosi]

You missed the point.

In a poor land with old pcs and dial-up modem connection is better to have DIRECTLY THE ON THE CD the option to choose xfce (which is only a few mbytes) instead of the default desktop environment (gnome for ubuntu and kde for kunbuntu).

This is to provide a solution out of the box for older pcs.

bye

rpm
But.... Why..?
Why not just have the Xubuntu-ISO avalible, and then use those megs on the ubuntu- and kubuntu-isos for something which isn't allready on the cd. Remember that it is only a 700 meg cd, not a bloody dvd. Every single meg is important to use for a new and different function in the OS.

[rpm]

ok ozamosi

i reconsidered the iso option because it have been criticized.

I thinked too it was better to include xfce in the install cd because is only a few megs big, but I don't know if this is a workable solution and if there is enough free space on the cd.

I think is better to include it and not force people to dl it with a 56kb modem connection on older pcs.

If including it within the cd is not possible, to create another iso cd spin-off (xubuntu) i think is the best solution.

thank you and good bye

rpm

[fdoving]

ok ozamosi

i reconsidered the iso option because it have been criticized.

I thinked too it was better to include xfce in the install cd because is only a few megs big, but I don't know if this is a workable solution and if there is enough free space on the cd.

I think is better to include it and not force people to dl it with a 56kb modem connection on older pcs.

If including it within the cd is not possible, to create another iso cd spin-off (xubuntu) i think is the best solution.

thank you and good bye

rpm


I like your idea, but I don't know if it's possible to do. As already mentioned, every single MB is important on the CDs. A spinn-off like xubuntu would probably be the best solution, then you can drop most of both KDE and GNOME and instead include other applications.

Good idea though.

- Frode

[merlyn]

Here is my two bobs worth, sorry for the colloquialism but fellow Aussies will understand. Roughly equivalent to two cents worth.

Let's talk about "Xubuntu" even though it doesn't exist at present, a lean mean install, for those with low end PCs and slow connections. Much has been mentioned about the value of storage capacity on CD's, not to mention slow internet connections, (dialup), on this forum to date.

A bit about myself first, I recently migrated from FC.x to Ubuntu, have a fairly kick *** PC, but a horribly slow net connection, (dial up). As such some of this thread is personaly relevent. I am also a self confessed minimalist.

Under FC the first thing that I did was to remove all the packages that I knew I didn't need and or want and, "fortune for example". I need to say that I consider fortune an "unessential" package, nice to have for some perhaps but baggage to others.

This is a task that I found extremely easy due to my, (currently), greater familiarity with rpm over the deb/apt packaging system.

While I found the Ubuntu install much more leaner and meaner that FC.x, which has great appeal to the minimalist in me, once I attempted to remove the packages I either didn't either need or want, I found that many had codependencies with either 'ubuntu desktop' and/or 'ubuntu base'. Stuff it, is this really necessary!

CD storage space is a premium, indeed, this is a point that has to date been made, and I wholeheartedly agree, which 'non essential' packages take up.

Consider this a person with a lower end PC would greatly benefit from a 'trim' DE like XFCE, no debate there. But do they also need the multitude of screensavers, that do not run so well on low end video cards, (much less take up valuable CD space), how about OO which takes up heaps of space, on a CD or HDD, (think low end PC).

As mentioned previously I have a fairly kickin' PC, but even I notice the difference in loading times between Abiword and OpenOffice.org Writer. While on the topic of OO. Under FC, I could select the various components ie Writer or Impress, individually, rather than the install all or nothing approach adopted in Ubuntu.

Please don't get me wrong I really like Ubuntu, and will not go back to bloated distros like for example FC.

My point is this. If a minimal install of Ubuntu is to be provided either as a seperate "XUbuntu" CD or a menu providing a choice of Desktop environments on a 'one CD fits all' kind of install. Please lets consider what is really necessary, ie loads of GL screensavers, fortune, games, etc as part of the base install.

Should a decision be made in favour of a separate Xubuntu CD make it really lean and mean. If a one size fits all approach is adopted, then what the hey, If you have cool bandwith, you can install all the extras, you want or perhaps dowload an "extra packages CD" or a DVD install.

Shoot me down in flames for being vague, short on techincal details, or whatever. I don't care. I will happily leave any following debate to more knowledgeable members, and watch the debate intently with a view to learning more.

Cheers.

[rpm]

thanx merlyn

i found interesting your suggestions I hope the developers will care about it too

bye

rpm

[jonny]

The problem of low-spec PCs is real in the UK, and must be more of an issue in poorer countries.

I suspect that this problem could be resolved very easily, a many of the packages needed for an ubuntu-lite are already on the CD; and those that aren't are, by definition, small. A sensible step might be to create a new ubuntu-lite dependency package that could be used in place of ubuntu-base and ubuntu-desktop when installing the system. This would exclude screensavers, heavy multimedia apps, toys, and gimmicks (note that the Beatrix live CD provides a good model for this).

Even better, the installer could examine the PC's specs, and make a recommendation based on processor, ram and hard disk: "Your PC might not be sufficiently powerful to run a full ubuntu installation. Would you like to install a minimal desktop or attempt a full installation?"

[rpm]

Could be difficult to modify the installer but yes this could be a solution.

The problems about older pcs is felt too in Italy, a lighter version could help recicling pcs at no further cost.

thx and goodbye

rpm

[Locomorto]

I found that many had codependencies with either 'ubuntu desktop' and/or 'ubuntu base'. Stuff it, is this really necessary!

Those are just meta-pacakges to ensure that new applications can be added during the realese cycle. You are more then welcome to remove them first, and then proceed with your pruning, as hoary is realesed. In a development realese, or updating, those pacakges are essentinal.

[merlyn]

Those are just meta-pacakges to ensure that new applications can be added during the realese cycle. You are more then welcome to remove them first, and then proceed with your pruning, as hoary is realesed. In a development realese, or updating, those pacakges are essentinal.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, and please forgive my ignorance regarding this.

Cheers.

[puelly]

Ubuntu can already be used to install on a low end system using much of the techniques that you guys are already hinting on. I recently did a server only install of Ubuntu, leaving out all graphical interfaces then added the repositories for XFCE and had a custom "xubuntu" box up and running on a friends 700 Mhz Celeron.

I am not a linux mogul by any means and just now trying to get involved.

[davamundo]

Although, I really like Gnome,I agree completely that (if at all possible) XFCE should be wedged into both the install disk and the live CD, for both ubuntu and kubuntu. During hardware detection, if the available resources fall short of gnomes (or KDEs) minimum requirements, XFCE should be used automatically. This IS an important feature, as it will more than double the number of number of people who can enjoy ubuntu, especially those who need it most !
djp

[mrbass]

I'd love to see XFCE ubuntu distro...especially on live cd as that'll be a much quicker and friendlier user experience. I've been trying to get it added to mepis but haven't had much luck convincing the developer. I'll keep trying though. Anyway I believe xfce4 is about a 14MB download in universe.
sudo apt-get install xfce4 xfmedia xterminal xfce4-theme-brushedchrome

I put xfce4 as part of my ubuntu addon script so one can install XFCE 4.2.1 offline without an internet connection...
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=30187

check out all these debs...hehe.
sudo dpkg -i emacsen-common_1.4.15_all.deb libxine1_1.0-1ubuntu3_i386.deb libmodplug0_1%3a0.7-3_i386.deb
sudo dpkg -i a2ps_1%3a4.13b-4.2_i386.deb gtk2-engines-xfce_2.3.0cvs20050306-2_i386.deb libdbh1.0-1_1.0.22-1_i386.deb libexo0.3-0_0.3.0-1ubuntu1_i386.deb libgtkhtml2-0_2.6.3-1_i386.deb libxfce4mcs-client-2_4.2.1-1_i386.deb libxfce4mcs-manager-2_4.2.1-1_i386.deb libxfce4util-1_4.2.1-1_i386.deb libxfcegui4-3_4.2.1-1_i386.deb mousepad_0.2.0-1ubuntu1_i386.deb rox-filer_1%3a2.2.0-xfld.2_i386.deb xfcalendar_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4_4.2.1.1-2ubuntu2_all.deb xfce4-appfinder_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-cpugraph-plugin_0.2.2.xfld-3ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-icon-theme_4.2.1-1_all.deb xfce4-iconbox_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-mcs-manager_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-mcs-plugins_4.2.1-1ubuntu2_i386.deb xfce4-mixer_1%3a4.2.1-2ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-mixer-lib-alsa_1%3a4.2.1-2ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-panel_4.2.1.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-session_4.2.1-2ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-systray_4.2.1-1_i386.deb xfce4-theme-brushedchrome_0.20050105-1_all.deb xfce4-toys_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-trigger-launcher_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfce4-utils_4.2.1-1_i386.deb xfdesktop4_4.3.6.4-1ubuntu2_i386.deb xffm4_1%3a4.2.1-1_i386.deb xfmedia_0.7.1-1ubuntu2_i386.deb xfprint4_4.2.1-1ubuntu2_i386.deb xfwm4_4.2.1-1ubuntu1_i386.deb xfwm4-themes_4.2.1-1_all.deb xterminal_0.2.4-1ubuntu1_i386.deb

[ghaspias]

Most people in developing countries will begin by having a small problem: they DON'T HAVE A COMPUTER!

So, they will have to use other person's computers, or the computer at school, or other publicly available. Which means, many won't ever need to install - they may only be able to use a live CD.
Also, if they need to download it, either for use as live CD or to install, they might have to do it in a place where they are not able to burn an ISO, and they can't take it home in floppies... And each MB will probably cost them... the total cost could well be near the price of a usb pen disk.

So, there should defenitely be a pen-based distro, that anyone could download fast, put in a pen disk (somewhat expensive, but since that is to become a computer-in-a-pocket, might be a sensible investment) and then just have his computer to use in school, at a friend's, in the library, etc.
The lucky few 'first world' people who have fast computers at home, with fast internet, could just grab a CD full of extras, and the installer (from the pen-based version) would use that for a complete install (all the normal stuff, Gnome/KDE replacing the basic XFCE). For the really lucky with unlimited broadband (or having a internet at work plus nice boss) a DVD with even more stuff... All this should be integrated within the basic pen-based installer/live distro.

I don´t think also that many people will download a 600+ MB cd image just to take a look at what is Ubuntu. If a 100 MB pen-based fully useable live distro is available, allowing for an upgrade path (install to disk as-is, or as a full distro taking the additional packages from the net or a downloaded cd), many more would give it a try.

(Who will be the first to sell 'Ubuntu-in-a-pocket' pen drives? With proper branding, and maybe some support from ONG... contact me)

The idea is not to have several 'one-size-fits-all' distros, but one intelligent installer which guides the user but gives them the power to choose what they need.

(Please, get rid of the excessive screensavers! There is so much left out of Ubuntu, that the screensaver list becomes ridiculous! Why not create a new Ubuntu set of screensavers/desktop backgrounds?)

[merlyn]

In regard to the availabilty of Ubuntu to those people in developing countries with low end / no PCs and limited / no internet access.

Canonical / Ubuntu offer to ship free of charge pressed CDs of either "install" or "live".

Granted that this would require internet access to be able to place an order, and that shipping of CDs may take 4-6 weeks. I imagine though, that this service would help considerably.

The money spent otherwise on internet access and or buying a thumb drive, (mentioned by the previous poster), could then be put towards purchasing some form of removable storage device or media as appropriate, to store data, eg, usb thumb drive or CD/RW.

Check out the Shipit FAQ (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/support/documentation/faq/shipit/)

Also there was a developers conference held in Australia recently, 'Ubuntu Down Under', (UDU). Check out the UDU wiki (http://udu.wiki.ubuntu.com/FrontPage) which outlines a whole range of prioritised topics for both 'Breezy' and Ubuntu as a whole.

These include a Lightweight desktop, an embeddable distro, Live CD improvements, and the upcoming release (R7), of X.org, to name a few.

All very exciting stuff. The devs, are obviously aware of; and working on these issues.

Cheers.

[poofyhairguy]

While I found the Ubuntu install much more leaner and meaner that FC.x, which has great appeal to the minimalist in me, once I attempted to remove the packages I either didn't either need or want, I found that many had codependencies with either 'ubuntu desktop' and/or 'ubuntu base'. Stuff it, is this really necessary!



Neither package is needed. They are meta packages. Removing them does not harm your system.