How MS will screw us in the *** this time.

[TitanKing]

I am fairly upset,

See this is my story, before you can use IE7 (stable) it validates your computer for a "legal version" Microsoft crap, however I am a Ubuntu user and web developer. So how the hell will I test my work, purchase a freaking crap Windows OS ???? I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! Any objections ?

[Mathiasdm]

http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page

IE7 is not supported yet, but it will be.

[GStubbs43]

... the **** will ... a ******* crap **** Win... ?? **** THEM ...anymore ! ******* !

Do you really need that many swears in one post?

[PatrickMay16]

Do you really need that many swears in one post?
My friend, he needs more than that.

[mostwanted]

http://www.tatanka.com.br/ies4linux/page/Main_Page

IE7 is not supported yet, but it will be.

The only reason why it's possible to run IE 6 in WINE is because Microsoft has stripped down version available for Windows 98. Internet Explorer is now so integrated into Windows that running it in WINE is naught but a dream.

That said, the world is still running IE 6 as of now and if you know a little about the rendering changes made to MSHTML between 6 and 7 you should be able to guess what it will look like in IE 7 when the crossover has happened.

[chaosgeisterchen]

The bad thing about all this is, that MS really keeps the Web Developers away from optimizing their pages for IE7. Well.. we should not really optimize towards IE7, but it seems as if Microsoft cannot accept W3C standards.

Can anyone tell me why Microsoft still tries to go its own way concerning the internet, something which badly needs to be standardized? ...

[Bloch]

But with IE7 more compliant with standards it won't be as crucial to test a site on it.

I do webmaster for a couple of sites on my OS X mac and on ubuntu. I never realised until recently that our latest news page is all messed up in IE. I spent hours but couldn't fix it.
http://www.stingingfly.org/latest/

[Old Pink]

IE7 finally has .PNG rendering, so sites don't look like crap anymore. :)

Having said that, Firefox is my only browser, I see little attraction in running IE in Wine, so it doesn't really conecern me. :)

[d3v1ant_0n3]

I can see a future where, instead of the old 'you must have Internet Explorer 5 or above to view this website', we'll start seeing 'you must have firefox 2.0 or above installed to view this website.

[chaosgeisterchen]

I will certainly start to add this information to my webpage. If there is bad rendering with IE I do not care. People I know (my target group for my blog) are not really using IE.

[Pelekophori]

If a significant number of sites break in IE 7 because non-Windows based web designers can't test against IE, then other browsers (esp Firefox) can only benefit.

Hopefully Microsoft is about to run up against the law of unintended consequences. :-D

[Lord Illidan]

If a significant number of sites break in IE 7 because non-Windows based web designers can't test against IE, then other browsers (esp Firefox) can only benefit.

Hopefully Microsoft is about to run up against the law of unintended consequences. :-D

hmm..the only way to test would be to ask a windows using friend to test it for you. I wish Windows would be standards compliant for a change.

[Shay Stephens]

Hey, if they want to shut that door...let them. It is on their heads now.

Maybe people will start going, hey, IE7 looks terrible compared to FireFox or even IE6. I'm dumping IE7.

Don't support IE7 specific web development, it may just make a difference.

[B0rsuk]

I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! ******* !

What makes it a problem ?

[AlexC_]

But with IE7 more compliant with standards it won't be as crucial to test a site on it.

I do webmaster for a couple of sites on my OS X mac and on ubuntu. I never realised until recently that our latest news page is all messed up in IE. I spent hours but couldn't fix it.
http://www.stingingfly.org/latest/

Not everyone will be running IE7, many will still be running IE < 7 so web devs will still have the nightmare of coding for IE

[Lord Illidan]

the problem about not making websites for IE, is bug no. 1

[bruce89]

But with IE7 more compliant with standards it won't be as crucial to test a site on it.

Why does Wikipedia (and other MediaWiki Wikis) need a css file of fixes for IE 5.0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/IE50Fixes.css), 5.5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/IE55Fixes.css), 6.0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/IE60Fixes.css) and 7.0 (http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/monobook/IE50Fixes.css); and a js (http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/common/IEFixes.js) file of fixes for all IEs whereas no other browsers need this.

[kerry_s]

Did you know that IE7 is built on IE4? Don't let them pull the blinds over your eye's, there doing what they always do, just dressing up a older version for a new look.

[Luke771]

How about optimizing sites for Firefox and Opera, so they will look basically the same any other browser including lynks?
Then you could add a warning: "you want to look at this using M$ crap? Your fuXXXng problem, buddy" and a link to a couple of good browsers' downloads (FF and Opera should be enough)

[cunawarit]

I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! ******* !

IE7 is not the nightmare that IE6 used to be, it is way more compliant and as a general guide if it looks one way in Firefox the chances are that it'll look the same in IE7.

[Sunnz]

As you can get Firefox on all major OS, there is no problems developing websites for it as people can always just use Firefox to browse your site.

[RAV TUX]

moving to windows discussion with a redirect

[coastdweller]

Windows is "yesterday" in my book.

Weird little comment, but I'm starting to believe it =)

[kthakore]

Give www.broswershots.org a try it will save you having to install any IEs on your compy, its takes a while for the shots to load but, I have been using it for a long time and I am happy with it.

[chaosgeisterchen]

Did you know that IE7 is built on IE4?

Is it just like Vista still using parts of Windows 3.1 ?

[Sunnz]

The site doesn't load for me though...

[mozetti]

I think one point everyone is missing, is that the OP is advocating software piracy. If your business is web-design, and you need to make sure your websites display correctly in IE, then yes you should have to buy a copy of a Windows OS if that's the only way IE will run.

To pose your question another way, in another industry:

"I refine crude oil into gasoline, so I have to make sure my gasoline meets the right specifications for my customers. Recently, my customers decided they were going to return any gasoline that didn't meet their specifications. Are you telling me I now have to buy the equipment to test the gasoline myself, before I send it to customers?!?"

Sounds pretty silly, doesn't it?

[Sunnz]

Well considering that anyone can get firefox to run on their computer for free anyway, and firefox is pretty good at standard anyway, it should be good enough.

[TitanKing]

I am sorry for starting my thread with swear words, I was pretty upset at the time. But the fact of the matter is, MS is using these types of things to get to the end users pocket. Its bad and it should not be this way.

then yes you should have to buy a copy of a Windows OS if that's the only way IE will run.

Well where is the freedom of choice in this? This is not the way it should be, if everyone starts doing this unethical method of stealing money, where will we end up ?

I promise you guys, I will add a piece of code in sites saying that this site cannot be viewed in MSIE cause of security and other ugly issues if user is using IE, I will be protecting the user in any way...

[mips]

Why produce IE7 specific code ? I would just ensure the code is W3C compliant.

Did I ever mention that I also hate flash...

[TitanKing]

Good point this will force IE to be W3C...

[Sunnz]

Just say something along the lines of "Only standard browsers are supported at this moment.", then give a list of standard browsers like Firefox, Opera, etc.

That said, what can Microsoft really do? If it takes that long for them to develop a new browser, they are obliviously have no hope porting it to other systems. The only thing they can do is to make IE7 as w3c standard as possible.

[3rdalbum]

IE 7 is something I welcome. When Flash 9 was released for Linux, I found a website where the braindead web developer had written some Javascript which doesn't let the user continue unless they are running Flash 8. Not "Flash 8 or above". Just Flash 8.

Now that IE 7 has been released, the morons who use browser detection to limit their audience to Windows-IE users will either relax their coding to allow IE 7, or get rid of the restrictions altogether so they don't have to keep updating their site each time Microsoft releases a new operating system or a new web browser.

This will play in our favour.

[randomnumber]

I just thought that this was funny and that I would share it:


Attention All: Internet Explorer 7
Microsoft will soon distribute Internet Explorer 7 (IE7) via Windows Automatic Updates, the Windows Update site, and the Microsoft Update site. The automatic delivery process will notify users that an update is available and allow users to choose whether to install Internet Explorer 7.

At this time, we recommend users NOT install IE7 due to possible compatibility issues with the eLearning system, which may hinder access to online classes. We expect IE7 to be fully supported by the eLearning vendor shortly after the new year.

For questions or concerns, please contact the ITS Help Desk at ###-#### or at helpdesk@???.edu.

- Information Technology Services


This is from an application called elearning at my school. I did not want to give out contact info that would bother them so I edited the phone # and email. I thought about submitting a address but it requires login so that is not possible. Please comment on this if you want. I thought this was the most resonible thread for this.

[3rdalbum]

I just thought that this was funny and that I would share it:


At this time, we recommend users NOT install IE7 due to possible compatibility issues with the eLearning system, which may hinder access to online classes. We expect IE7 to be fully supported by the eLearning vendor shortly after the new year.


This is from an application called elearning at my school.

Read: "The idiots who designed our eLearning system made it dependent on IE 6, and we were stupid enough to sign off on their work. When their jail sentence for Fraud ends at the end of the year, we'll be able to hire them again to make our website dependent on IE 7."

[mozetti]

Wow, where to start.

I am sorry for starting my thread with swear words, I was pretty upset at the time. But the fact of the matter is, MS is using these types of things to get to the end users pocket. Its bad and it should not be this way.

No -- MS sells a product, Windows, that includes IE. If you want to use IE, then you need to buy the product. It's pretty much cut & dry. Open-source and freeware isn't a requirement, it's an alternative. We have alot to show for capitalist hardware & software development.

Well where is the freedom of choice in this? This is not the way it should be, if everyone starts doing this unethical method of stealing money, where will we end up ?

What freedom of choice do you want, the choice of paying MS or not? This is not an unethical method of stealing money - it's called capitalism. I make a product, you want my product. Since I made it, I can ask you to give me money for it. Your freedom of choice is, if you don't want to pay for it, then you choose not to buy it.

There's alot I don't agree with about MS, specifically their EULA, but one thing I do agree with is their right to charge people for their product. You're a web developer, right? What right do you have in charging people for designing their websites?

I'm gonna peg your age at somewhere between 19-23, and chalk your bizarre view to lack of experience and maturity. There are plenty of things to feel passionate about, but requiring software companies to give away their software isn't one of them. Instead, work at creating or supporting OSS and/or freeware alternatives.

[gabeheim]

Indeed, where to start. TitanKing perhaps did not articulate clearly how ms is "screwing" us up. Capitalism may be the most effective theoretical type of market (remember there are no absolutes), but some of the things MS does would send shivers down Adam Smith's back. There is a reason for antitrust laws, they are to protect the market, suppliers and consumers when a company is too powerful for free market forces to reign in. I believe it is ok for Microsoft to put any reasonable components in their system, although, integrating a browser into a kernel to circumvent antitrust lawsuits is insane. And I certainly agree that Microsoft is entitled to their ownership rights (and thus licensing) of their software. But you neglect to consider the market impact of microsoft's action. Microsoft has repeatedly broken standards in order to exclude competition from the market. To name just a few, web standards, kerberos, and Java. Each was clearly an intent to make other systems inoperable with windows machines. Don't forget MS hacking their gui so that it could not run on DOS clones ten years ago. (Remember Win 95?) They certainly had every right to put DOS and windows in the same box and sell it. But they deliberately hardwired the GUI, which previously could work with any version of DOS, so that it only worked with MS DOS 7.x. Not for any technical reason, but to exclude competition. Perhaps ancient news, but with MS, it still goes one way or another. We are now starting to see the negative effect of MS's dominance. Look at the new Vista licensing, George Orwell would be proud. I used to boot between windows and linux, but because of vista and the future of Windows 1984, I am moving away from it and will not upgrade, even if free.

So, before defending MS with free market arguments, first consider the negative impact of microsoft, and please suggest a reasonable way to end the MS monopoly.

BTW, for everyone saying IE7 is overall a good thing because of better compliance, I used to think that too, but just think about the average user who thought about migrating to firefox for security, but downloads this new version of IE MS gives him that seems to do everything FF does, like tabs, is the first standards compliant browser (no, not the truth, but that is what microsoft is probably counting on them to believe they are saying), and then run this browser that looks and feels more secure. Hey, it's got an anti-phishing filter and better privacy protection, my credit card is safe! We forget that most users that are not as technically adept, that 80 or so percent of the market does not understand "path of infection <i.e. active x>", W3C standards, ACID test, etc. Remember, when they browse to a site that is standards compliant but doesn't work with IE, "IE is not broken, the site is", because they think IE is the standard browser. Sorry I am rambling, but I become less trustful of MS everyday. The funny thing is, i trusted them more before they promised to start behaving (security and interoperability) in the past year or two...

[holylucifer]

I prefer to use firefox as my default browser.

[fakie_flip]

I am fairly upset,

See this is my story, before you can use IE7 (stable) it validates your computer for a "legal version" Microsoft crap, however I am a Ubuntu user and web developer. So how the hell will I test my work, purchase a freaking crap Windows OS ???? I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! Any objections ?

VMware is for developers. You could get a VMware Server for free and install winblows in it.

[karellen]

I am fairly upset,

See this is my story, before you can use IE7 (stable) it validates your computer for a "legal version" Microsoft crap, however I am a Ubuntu user and web developer. So how the hell will I test my work, purchase a freaking crap Windows OS ???? I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! Any objections ?

maybe you should run ie6 virtually and test your websites with it. it's the closest to ie7 you can get :D

[Chrisj303]

I am fairly upset,

See this is my story, before you can use IE7 (stable) it validates your computer for a "legal version" Microsoft crap, however I am a Ubuntu user and web developer. So how the hell will I test my work, purchase a freaking crap Windows OS ???? I just wont make websites for IE anymore ! Any objections ?


Just buy an OEM copy of XP. If it's for work, you will be able to claim tax back on it - reducing the cost further.

Also, your post implies that your using a pirate copy of XP. So am i (corporate edition) and have no problems with WGA.

[Sunnz]

If it is just testing then just use IE6 through Wine.

Isn't IE7 suppose to be better than IE6 at following the web standard? If so then code that works on Firefox should work on IE7 with minor differences.

[hobieone]

this could be a long shot and not sure it will work. but there is an extension to fire fox called ie tab. supposedly you can specify under tab properties which website to run under that particular tab with ei 7 extension or such and the website tbhinks your using ie 7. i tried it on firefox on my windows xp with net flix watch nowhere you can watch full feature movie on thier site if you have a certion membership. and it require ei 7 only or it wont funtion and with this fire fox extion install and net flix website specified to run using ie extions it worked quite well. the quest thou. is will it work under linux so one could test. under ei enviroment without trying to install ie. something i'l bee definatly tring myself eventually

[ThinkBuntu]

I still have to design for IE6 and 7 regardless of my ethics. I'm a career web designer, and also run a small design business. I can't afford to be cutting out parts of my market regardless of how hard it is to run IE7. People will find a way to make it run in Linux, just wait a bit.

When making layouts, I can say with confidence that building for IE6 adds about 35% of my total overhead, and IE7 another 5%. Opera and Safari, however, add none. This is very, very significant: my clients wouldn't have to pay nearly as much if Microsoft just shipped with Firefox or another standards-compliant browser. Besides, wouldn't it save them development costs? Are they that desperate to drive new users to MSN every time they enter a wrong URL or hit a broken link?

[LaRoza]

I test my work on IE 7 and Firefox 2 and the rendering is almost identical. The same CSS2 properties are supported and overall, the XHTML + CSS looks the same on each. I use Firefox personally, but I can say if it looks right in Firefox, it will look the same in IE 7, but you should test it just to see. The biggest problem is IE 6. Anyone using that probably doesn't know much about the Web, so they would be more likely to reject a "bad" site because it doesn't work.

[ThinkBuntu]

I've found layout bugs in IE7 distinct from Firefox and IE6. One page I made shifted two pixels down for no apparent reason, so I had to use the html-dummy hack to fix it (since then some clever people have figured out an easier hack). If you're making a blog, a homepage, or a small business page, or something similar, this doesn't mater. But with professional-grade work, this can make or break a website (see the infamout three-pixel jog).

[couzin2000]

Anybody seen this site? It's a must as far as I'm concerned...

http://www.westciv.com/

A really good site, I would suggest reading their online CSS guide and browsing through the browser compatibility lists. They are much help to me.

Have fun!

[lakersforce]

Can anyone tell me why Microsoft still tries to go its own way concerning the internet, something which badly needs to be standardized? ...

Because Bill Gates is a real capitalist and a patriot and he think he can corner the world browser market?

[Episcopus]

I think one point everyone is missing, is that the OP is advocating software piracy. If your business is web-design, and you need to make sure your websites display correctly in IE, then yes you should have to buy a copy of a Windows OS if that's the only way IE will run.

I don't think the OP is saying what you think he is saying. I think he is saying that it is unreasonable that anyone is expected to shell out several hundred dollars to use a web browser. The problem is evidenced in your post. It is accepted that MS bundles everything in such a way that it IE will only run in a copy of Windows and that you have to spend several hundred dollars on a new Windows OS just to use the browser. OP was lamenting the fact that this is the case, and accurately observing that the only reason for this is to keep competitors out.

The free market you advocate does not like monopolistic tactics. In a truly free market, only the best or most desirable goods and services would survive. Goods and services that come attached to other goods and services are popular by convenience, not by market force. There is no market drive to improve those goods because of what they are attached to, and thus, the market is not free.

[Sunnz]

But people have the choice of not running Windows or not use IE, thus the market itself is free, unless they only sell computers are can't run anything other than M$. (It can happen with "Trusted" Computing.)