Include Beryl into Feisty Fawn?

[chaosgeisterchen]

Beryl (http://www.beryl-project.org/) ist definitely something everything has at least heard of once as one of the fastest developing pieces of software concerning the free desktop at the moment. From day to day, from week to week, it gets more performant and the range of effect hits a vast number, steadily increasing.

Although it is marked as alpha software (currently at version number 0.1.1) it is proven to be quite stable running with AIGLX and XGL, first of which will be included by default into every upcoming distribution using XOrg7.1.

So it's some kind of question what you think about including Beryl per default into Ubuntu to make it available without any further installation. Contra arguments are clearly the alpha status and the experimental approach as well as the need for propietary drivers (concerning newer ATIs and NVidia-cards), Pros are the heavy and fast development and the effect it could have on eyecandy-wanting masses of could-be-switchers coming from XP or in future times: Windows Vista, which has the profit of eyecandy which users often expect from Ubuntu to have it too.

Rather controversial question, I know, but I'd be happy to read some opinions on that.

Regards,

cg

[Brunellus]

No.

It should not be the default window manager, nor should it necessarily be available on the general repositories. I'd be pleased if it were available on a 'test' repository.

Nevertheless, we should make it abundantly clear to users that it's ALPHA software, and in this case, really ISN'T ready for the desktop. yet.

[chaosgeisterchen]

Concerning the default window manager:

I would never suggest to use Beryl as default, this should still be KWin or Metacity depending on the version of Ubuntu you use. Just to clarify that :)

[UbuWu]

It is on the agenda already:

https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/beryl-by-default

[weatherman]

does anybody know how large the beryl package would be?
having seen how much popularity sabayon has gained from including beryl by default I'd say go for it.

[Brunellus]

does anybody know how large the beryl package would be?
having seen how much popularity sabayon has gained from including beryl by default I'd say go for it.
sabayon's main raison d'etre is beryl. Ubuntu's goals are different.

[chaosgeisterchen]

Hmh.. Feisty's Goal is Desktop Effects.. therefore it could be reasonable.

[hanzomon4]

sabayon's main raison d'etre is beryl. Ubuntu's goals are different.

Really? didn't know that one.

Beryl has really gone a long way, the only hurdle is getting it setup right. I know some folks have performance/stability issues or strange bugs, but I question the cause of such issues.

When I first tried beryl I had a white cube, black windows, and a very slow system. But in minutes I changed where I placed stuff in my xorg.conf and it was running smooth as butter.

Point being some of the concerns about stability my be misplaced unfairly on beryl, as its easier to say "it's alpha software" then it is tracking down a problem with a particular setup.

[thephotoman]

Honestly, I think this would be something best served by a running testing repository, much as it already is--but at the same time, a Universe-based distro (Blingbuntu, perhaps?) that is naught but a respin of Ubuntu with the upstream Beryl repositories included.

But that's just my two cents, and it will be until the ATI and NVidia drivers are available for AIGLX, and Beryl is stable.

[The Noble]

Once the beta nvidia drivers come out, I would definately love an easy way to set up (and remove) beryl. Beryl is big, and the amount of people messing up their systems to merely try it is staggering. Making an easy way to enable or remove beryl (through metapackages or otherwise) would attract attention while pleasing quite a few users. If doing this is not too time consuming and fits with their definition of "eye-bling" it should certainly be considered.

[Iandefor]

Once the beta nvidia drivers come out, I would definately love an easy way to set up (and remove) beryl. Beryl is big, and the amount of people messing up their systems to merely try it is staggering. Making an easy way to enable or remove beryl (through metapackages or otherwise) would attract attention while pleasing quite a few users. If doing this is not too time consuming and fits with their definition of "eye-bling" it should certainly be considered. Once they're out?

They've been out for a while. (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=263851)

[chaosgeisterchen]

Isn't he talking about the 1.09767 ( I think that's the correct version number...) BETA drivers waitng for final release (1.1 I assume)?

[justinchudgar]

Really? didn't know that one.

Beryl has really gone a long way, the only hurdle is getting it setup right. I know some folks have performance/stability issues or strange bugs, but I question the cause of such issues.

When I first tried beryl I had a white cube, black windows, and a very slow system. But in minutes I changed where I placed stuff in my xorg.conf and it was running smooth as butter.

Point being some of the concerns about stability my be misplaced unfairly on beryl, as its easier to say "it's alpha software" then it is tracking down a problem with a particular setup.

From what I've seen on launchpad and on x.org, it looks like improvements to the stability and configurability of xorg is a pre-requisite for beryl-by-default. I think it is called "Bulletproof-X" on launchpad. Since it seems that there will be concerted effort to improve the "plumbing" behind beryl, I'm all for the effort.

I really do not much care how soon a GL desktop environment show up; but, I am very eager to see improvements to display management.

[hotani]

It would be nice to see, but I have serious doubts that it would be ready by the time Feisty launches.

I just tried to load Beryl and had the same problem that plagued me in Compiz: the Alt key would minimize the current window when I tried to do alt-tab. However, unlike compiz where I could go into the settings and turn off the "minimize" effect, there seemed to be no fix in Beryl. Oh yeah, and I didn't have any window borders - alpha stage? You betcha!

When it does get included, whether that is by default or "enable desktop effects" a la Suse, it needs to be tamed down. No water, no wiggles, no crazy bling blang. Instead, the default install should just have some understated transparency when moving windows, a nice alt-tab effect for switching apps and the trademark cube. Of course, the bling should be easily turned on for those that want it, but the whole realm of desktop effects in linux is extremely over-the-top and overly complicated. OS X has the mild effects down to a science - just enough to look cool and be functional without getting in the way.

[Cynical]

I definitely disagree with having beryl as the default. It would be cool to do what hotani mentioned and copy suse's desktop effects button, or have the option to do it during the install.

[ronmarley1]

I also agree that Beryl should not be the default window manager, mainly for the reasons Brunellus suggests. However, the original poster does not suggest that that Beryl be the default window manager: he's just suggesting that it be included in the next rev. Also, from the Beryl blog at http://blog.beryl-project.org/, from the 10/28 posting,
"For those of you who don’t know, the Beryl Project has been invited out to the Ubuntu Developers Summit in California next month. First off Ubuntu is NOT taking over control in any way, and beryl will remain distro neutral. The idea here is to help make sure beryl works with ubuntu and that beryl can be released in Ubuntu. A spec for Ubuntu 7.04 has had some initial groundwork done which will allow beryl to come pre-installed on Ubuntu systems that meet the requirements! The conference is from Nov. 5th to Nov. 11th and I will be keeping you all up to date here on what’s going on, what has been discussed, and any new and exciting developments. Stay tuned, exciting progress is afoot."

[chaosgeisterchen]

I really hope they write a QT-version of beryl-manager and port the whole app to QT. In fact it looks not very nice to have GTK-elements in a Qt-Desktop.

But one has to go to the source to place such suggestions.

Default window manager Beryl is indeed a bad idea. There should be an option to enable it. But default should still be Metacity/KWin.

[FreakTech]

I agree that Beryl should not be the default manager, but that it should be included for easy set-up. I have Beryl installed my my laptop and it is now running great. The issues that I had with it were all install problems: i.e. missing windows decoration. After some research I found the errors on the install and now it is extremely stable.

[Zeek00]

Concerning the default window manager:

I would never suggest to use Beryl as default, this should still be KWin or Metacity depending on the version of Ubuntu you use. Just to clarify that :)


Wouldn't it make a difference with the type of graphics card you have? I know the AIGLX
drivers are worthless with some ATI cards. So wouldn't it just be a waste of time to add it in. If your running a slightly older machine Beryl is just worhtless eye candy that eats at your overall computer performance.

I'm sure that they can work on much more pressing matters than pointless eye candy.

Zeek

[Hex_Mandos]

The spec's been deferred, possibly for Feisty+1 (7.10). Check Launchpad.

[macogw]

No.

It should not be the default window manager, nor should it necessarily be available on the general repositories. I'd be pleased if it were available on a 'test' repository.

Nevertheless, we should make it abundantly clear to users that it's ALPHA software, and in this case, really ISN'T ready for the desktop. yet.

Hey Luigi, remember my computer's situation? Beryl's "currently stable" (or whatever) release on Edgy kept core dumping. I load the "we haven't even tested it yet" Beryl on Feisty, and it's solid. Figure *that* one out.

[Brunellus]

Hey Luigi, remember my computer's situation? Beryl's "currently stable" (or whatever) release on Edgy kept core dumping. I load the "we haven't even tested it yet" Beryl on Feisty, and it's solid. Figure *that* one out.
yeah, that was pretty amusing.

But that changes. Beryl's under heavy development. The devs are at pains to point out that its' BETA: shiny, cool, but not quite ready for prime-time.

* * * Warning: Sporting analogy ahead * * *

Beryl is the Freddy Adu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freddy_Adu) of window/composite environments.

[ronacc]

Ive got beryl 1.9999 running on another box with sabayon, nice eyecandy if you like eyecandy ( I'm not an eye candy person) its been rock stable for me, also I had no problems with the 1.4 version. with that said for ubuntu make it a choice maybe in universe or multiverse , where someone can add it if they want. I dont notice any particular performance hit but then my box is new and about "mid range" on oomph
amd64x2 3800 and nvidia 7300le and 1gb ddr2.

[FunnyLookinHat]

I don't think there is any question that Beryl should be a default window manager. Nobody is in agreement at all that it should be if I am testing the waters correctly.

What I do think we should weigh in is this: Beryl official repositories send out updates (bug fixes, patches, etc.) at least once a week. As soon as Beryl reaches it's 2.0 release (Not a Release Candidate) then it should be considered for adding to the universe repositories.

I use beryl and find it quite stable, but until it's an official release then it shouldn't be passed through the masters of the universe to be added to the repos.

Just my thoughts guys. : )

[blitze]

Got it running on my Feisty64 desktop and it is rock solid. Where I was previously running Compiz which was ok then died with more recent updates, Beryl runs great.

My only issue is needing to switch it off if I run an OpenGL App full screen. Hopefully things will improve but for the moment it is doing a fine job.

[Rodneyck]

Well it was announced on distrowatch.com that the devs will not be putting beryl or compiz in Fiesty. More likely it will be in the following release by default.

I am disappointed, especially after seeing many distros now offering it. Not to mention, eye candy in OSX and now Vista is standard. Sabayonlinux has the best solution, a choice panel/app for either enabling XGL or AIGLX, or none at all. Foresight Linux (gnome) has an app to enable compiz.

Something along these lines would be a choice for the user, yet bypasses all the installation by hand crap, and not so much a mandatory inclusion (being enabled by default.) I don't see why that is such a bad thing.

[rai4shu2]

Making it optional wouldn't help fix the bugs that are still in it, nor would it fix the fact that it takes away far too much of the keyboard and mouse functionality.

Beryl/Compiz are experimental, subject to major changes and prone to cause severe damage to a new user's experience. Thus, it obviously should *not* be included.

[RAOF]

Well it was announced on distrowatch.com that the devs will not be putting beryl or compiz in Fiesty. More likely it will be in the following release by default.

I am disappointed, especially after seeing many distros now offering it. Not to mention, eye candy in OSX and now Vista is standard. Sabayonlinux has the best solution, a choice panel/app for either enabling XGL or AIGLX, or none at all. Foresight Linux (gnome) has an app to enable compiz.
...

I'm not disappointed. Compiz isn't ready to be enabled by default, and from what I've seen neither is Beryl. Compiz is already in Universe, and the "desktop-effects" package comes with a program to enable Compiz. Plus, there's packages for gnome-compiz-manager on REVU that will hopefully get into Universe too.

There may be Beryl packages entering Universe. I know there's a MOTU working on packages.

So, for those who want it, Compiz is already a single app install away (since Universe is on by default), and Beryl may be.

[ronacc]

before we make any super eyecandy the DEFAULT we need to take a hard look at the level of hardware needed to run it without turning the system into a 3 legged turtle. If it wont run or if it saps all the resources of a cheap massmarket box then it dont need to be the default . We dont want to be in the position of Vista requiring new boxes or expensive upgrades just to install the OS.

[Brunellus]

I'm not disappointed. Compiz isn't ready to be enabled by default, and from what I've seen neither is Beryl. Compiz is already in Universe, and the "desktop-effects" package comes with a program to enable Compiz. Plus, there's packages for gnome-compiz-manager on REVU that will hopefully get into Universe too.

There may be Beryl packages entering Universe. I know there's a MOTU working on packages.

So, for those who want it, Compiz is already a single app install away (since Universe is on by default), and Beryl may be.
point of fact: universis NOT on by default.

[PriceChild]

There may be Beryl packages entering Universe. I know there's a MOTU working on packages.Hehe I'm regularly poking him, reminding when universe freeze is.

However he's not going to put in the RC1 packages... waiting until Final which IMO is a mistake.

[Kevin]

point of fact: universis NOT on by default.

It is in Feisty. https://blueprints.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/enabling-additional-components

Once gnome-compiz-manager makes it in, it'll be one command away from having compiz and a nice configuration front-end. sudo apt-get gnome-compiz-manager It should pull in all the dependencies.

[Rodneyck]

HOWTO ENHANCE YOUR WORKFLOW WITH BERYL

"Beryl has a couple of great plugins for organising applications that have a proliferation of little windows like the gimp or kopete, or if you want to group windows associated with a project you are working on. Normally with these types of applications, you end up "alt+tab"ing all over the show to find the right window. The grouper and scale plugins allow you to organise and find the windows you want fast. More..."

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