Linux vs. Vista [Archive] - Page 5

Trebuchet

February 4th, 2007, 03:08 PM

Vista offers discounts on additional systems if you buy Ultimate ($50 each IIRC) and Office 2007 can legally be installed into two computers anyway..

Why do the kids need Vista if they already have XP on their current systems? And as was noted above, there's no reason not to use OpenOffice instead of Office 2007. MS has even released a plug-in to allow Office to read OpenOffice's format. (The full Home & Student version of Office is $149, not $700.) The $700 full version Pro of Office 2007* includes Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, Accounting Express, Publisher, and Access. If you're already using Office 2000 or 2003, you can buy the less expensive upgrade versions anyway.

You've deliberately constructed a worst case scenario here; and you weaken your case by deliberately exaggerating. What are you actually trying to accomplish here besides self-justification for not using Vista and Office? Don't you think Linux can stand on its own merits without histrionics about Micro$oft?

http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/products/FX101635841033.aspx

Mr Nick

February 5th, 2007, 12:29 AM

I'm not saying windows is free. I'm saying you can't consider it a cost if it comes included in the price.
99% of PC buyers get it, so buy them later installing Ubuntu, they haven't saved any money.

frequent comparisons say "yea, but Ubuntu is free"
but most users have already bought XP, so comparing price isn't that big of a deal.
they aren't going to switch from XP that they've already paid for to Ubuntu just b/c it's free, because, like I said, XP SEEMS free to them.
I purchased a new computer three months ago. It came with a recovery disk and XP Home pre-installed.

Not pleased with a recovery disk I was looking at purchasing an XP disk. Ubuntu has saved me from that cost.

And guess what??? Ubuntu has saved me the cost of any more (future) Microsoft operating System costs. They have seen the last of my dollars.

Rodneyck

February 5th, 2007, 02:05 AM

I tried Vista on my second hard drive a couple of days ago, just to see what all the hoopla was about. I was not impressed. There was nothing innovative in this release, not a big surprise coming from MS. Really, all it boils down to is Windows XP with beryl + the media center (which is nothing new.) So glad I use linux now, so, so glad.

Trebuchet

February 5th, 2007, 08:35 AM

I don't think anyone but Microsoft's marketing dweebs think Vista is revolutionary. To anyone with half a brain it's obviously an evolutionary rather than revolutionary development from XP. However, one can excuse a bit of advertising hyperbole from any company with a product to tout. Are Mac's "Hi, I'm a PC." ads really any more honest? To me they come across as nothing but naked PC-bashing.

Magnes

February 5th, 2007, 10:22 AM

I use Windows XP occasionally as my music studio (I hope one day I'll use Ubuntu Studio for it). I can't even imagine using Vista - every MB of RAM is precious and Vista eats it a lot more than XP as I read.

Adamant1988

February 5th, 2007, 11:13 AM

UAC is annoying only at first, as you install new software. I have to do this already every time I install software because I run Zone Alarm (firewall software), so I can't see that it's such a big deal. How hard is it to click "OK" anyway?

While I'm sure Symantec and McAfee are not happy that they can't muddle around in the Vista kernel, given my experiences with both of those companies' products I have to say that doesn't distress me a bit. I do find it highly revealing that the smaller anti-virus companies are not complaining, but are simply adapting their programs for Vista. Makes me wonder why huge companies with far more resources seem unwilling to do the same.

UAC is one of the best things Microsoft has ever done. Really. I know it could get annoying, but frankly, I'd rather have overzealous protection that protection that let things slide by. even the black hats have admitted that UAC can stop them from doing things.

uNmentaLogic

February 5th, 2007, 03:39 PM

Yes, but that was not Linux limiting you on purpose because your monitor was not the type of hardware it wished you to use. That is what Vista brings to us.

Oh yes, I forgot:

CONTROL-ALT-DELETE!

My God man you cannot be this blindly biased. Here is a scenario for you

Ubuntu disc loads up you set up your installation, the Ubuntu installer installs your system. You reboot and come to your desktop and find that all your hardware is detected and set up accordingly. Your reaction = Yay Ubuntu and all is right in the world

Vista disc loads up you set up your installation, the Vista installer installs your system. You reboot and come to your desktop and find all your hardware is detected and set up accordingly. Your reaction = Booo Vista is trying to control all your options Micro$oft are teh Suxxor.

:rolleyes:

I have to inject a little levity here...

Taken from, http://blog.nixternal.com/2007.02.03/vista-social-engineering/

"This is a new one to me and rather humorous for a hack. It seems Vista is flawed, go figure, where a cracker can gain access and run commands on your computer by:

SHOUTING COMMANDS THROUGH THE SPEECH-RECOGNITION FEATURE!

I thought I had heard it all. So if you stumble upon a website and hear “CONTROL ALT DELETE,” don’t panic, as it is meant for a Windows Vista user. This brings social engineering to the computer now, simply amazing. What’s next?"

Wow, only a linux fanboy can have a go at Microsoft creating a program that allows you to control your computer through voice recognition and then laugh and call it a flaw when shock and horror a voice recording actually controls it.

Thing is mate if a linux distro had voice recognition software set up the exact same thing would happen to it too.

This is nothing more than linux users grasping at straws to justify their choice in OS.

Use whatever OS you like or an OS that best fits your needs, but for the love of Mike keep the knocking to yourself. In the end you just look like a person with OS anxiety issues.

uNmentaLogic

finferflu

February 5th, 2007, 03:45 PM

Thing is mate if a linux distro had voice recognition software set up the exact same thing would happen to it too.

I don't want to spoil your comment, since I find it very appropriate, I'm for freedom of choice as well, but I was just thinking about such a thing. They would still need your password to get permissions and do something *really* dangerous... even though they could still delete some of your personal files, if they know how they're named... just pure speculation...

uNmentaLogic

February 5th, 2007, 03:59 PM

I don't want to spoil your comment, since I find it very appropriate, I'm for freedom of choice as well, but I was just thinking about such a thing. They would still need your password to get permissions and do something *really* dangerous... even though they could still delete some of your personal files, if they know how they're named... just pure speculation...

With UAC enabled you would need to click OK or input a password too, for major damage to occur.

uNmentaLogic

Brunellus

February 5th, 2007, 04:06 PM

With UAC enabled you would need to click OK or input a password too, for major damage to occur.

uNmentaLogic
UAC? Union Aerospace Corp?

uNmentaLogic

February 5th, 2007, 04:12 PM

UAC? Union Aerospace Corp?

User Acount Controls. Microsoft version of user/super user.

Malac

February 5th, 2007, 04:45 PM

User Acount Controls. Microsoft version of user/super user.Yeah it's funny how as time goes by MS OS's start to have more and more Linux features added.
Come the day, MS Linux.

Rodneyck

February 5th, 2007, 07:18 PM

Wow, only a linux fanboy can have a go at Microsoft creating a program that allows you to control your computer through voice recognition and then laugh and call it a flaw when shock and horror a voice recording actually controls it.

Oh look ma, we got us a troll.

aysiu

February 5th, 2007, 07:20 PM

Let's cool it with the name-calling (linux fanboy/troll) and keep to discussing the topic at hand in a civilized fashion. Otherwise, posts will be jailed and infractions issued.

Play nice. Thanks.

Trebuchet

February 5th, 2007, 08:38 PM

UAC is one of the best things Microsoft has ever done. Really. I know it could get annoying, but frankly, I'd rather have overzealous protection that protection that let things slide by. even the black hats have admitted that UAC can stop them from doing things.I haven't got Vista yet, but from what I have read about it UAC only demands permission when you're installing new software or making other system changes. That'd be annoying for the first week or so as I get my favorite apps installed, after that it should be a non-issue. It does sound like UAC a bit annoying (why require user permission to change the wallpaper for Christ's sake!?), but if it's so intrusive it gets big negatives with the public I suspect MS will tone it down a bit with SP1. I guess I'd prefer overzealous protection to sloppy security. IMHO Linux and Mac users depend far too much on there being a near-total lack of virii and security holes for their platforms. If they continue to grow more hackers will inevitably target them.

uNmentaLogic

February 5th, 2007, 10:47 PM

Oh look ma, we got us a troll.

There is no reasoning with some people. I bet you didn't even think about one word I wrote. Call me a troll or windows fanboy if you will but when you go spreading FUD, I like you get annoyed, but unlike you I don't limit my affections to one brand.

aysiu thank you for keeping the peace, I appologise for the language used.

Rodneyck

February 6th, 2007, 12:08 AM

Let's cool it with the name-calling (linux fanboy/troll) and keep to discussing the topic at hand in a civilized fashion. Otherwise, posts will be jailed and infractions issued.

Play nice. Thanks.

Yes, thanks aysiu for stepping in. I can not stand people who make assumptions of ones character or beliefs based on a humorous posting.

BTW, here is a complete thread on the topic. It looks like I wasn't the only one to discover this.

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=351256

tommcd

February 6th, 2007, 02:23 AM

Geez, does everyone realize that this thread got started way back in July? This has to be the longest thread ever! Most of it has been good discussion though.

steven8

February 6th, 2007, 02:53 AM

My God man you cannot be this blindly biased. Here is a scenario for you

Ubuntu disc loads up you set up your installation, the Ubuntu installer installs your system. You reboot and come to your desktop and find that all your hardware is detected and set up accordingly. Your reaction = Yay Ubuntu and all is right in the world

Vista disc loads up you set up your installation, the Vista installer installs your system. You reboot and come to your desktop and find all your hardware is detected and set up accordingly. Your reaction = Booo Vista is trying to control all your options Micro$oft are teh Suxxor.

:rolleyes:

Don't roll your eye's at me. You make some leaps about me as a person, while I was talking of my personal beliefs about an OS which I feel imposes unfair restrictions on users for the benefit of big business. I have been a windows user since win95, and I feel that XP is an awesome OS. I love it. What I do not like is the direction they are heading with Vista. And just what the heck is "teh Suxxor"? You are talking to a 41 yr old father of three, who minored in English in college. I stink as a typist, and make a gaff every now and then, but do NOT put me in that category. Thank you.

Oh yes, I refer to Microsoft with all of the proper letters, and or MS for short.

Also, in my house right now, I have:

1 computer running PCDOS 3.1
1 computer running MACOS 7.5
1 computer running WIN98
1 computer running WinXP Pro
1 computer running Kubuntu Dapper

bodhi.zazen

February 6th, 2007, 03:56 AM

Let's cool it with the name-calling (linux fanboy/troll) and keep to discussing the topic at hand in a civilized fashion. Otherwise, posts will be jailed and infractions issued.

Play nice. Thanks.

I respect anyone who does an analysis of their needs and choses the best hardware/OS to fit their needs.

It would be nice if we could discuss the various advantages of the OS under discussion rather then OS bashing and name calling. That would make this thread a lot more interesting.

IMO voice recognition is/will be as innovative as a mouse. For example I work with people with a number of disabilities and voice recognition to control their computers will be a clear advantage to them.

I use this as an example not as an example of the superiority/inferiority of one OS vs. another, but rather an example of how this thread could be a lot more positive and informative.

~ Thanks all

Hinko

February 6th, 2007, 04:22 AM

steven8

February 6th, 2007, 04:31 AM

bit of a sidestep in all the flaming :tongue: :tongue: But how good is voice recognition right now? I used to work with it a few years ago but it was rather error prone back then. You couldn't really work with it, actually.

It's something I've always been excited about, but never got to try. Personally, I think it would be the best thing to happen in computers in years. The Knoppix Team has a system out right now with voice recognition I believe.

Trebuchet

February 6th, 2007, 08:32 AM

1 computer running PCDOS 3.1
1 computer running MACOS 7.5
1 computer running WIN98
1 computer running WinXP Pro
1 computer running Kubuntu DapperJeez, talk about mixed marriages! ;)

bodhi.zazen

February 6th, 2007, 10:04 AM

bit of a sidestep in all the flaming :tongue: :tongue: But how good is voice recognition right now? I used to work with it a few years ago but it was rather error prone back then. You couldn't really work with it, actually.

Yes, the quality of voice recognition has improved in recent years. Dragon Naturally Speaking (DNS) can achieve 95-98% accuracy. The "trick" is to invest in the professional version if you are a professional and a quality microphone (noise canceling).

DNS 7 will run in Linux with wine, DNS 8 is what I use professionally, and DNS 9 is out,but I have not tried it yet.

This is without a doubt an area Linux has significantly lagged :(

steven8

February 6th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Yes, the quality of voice recognition has improved in recent years. Dragon Naturally Speaking (DNS) can achieve 95-98% accuracy. The "trick" is to invest in the professional version if you are a professional and a quality microphone (noise canceling).

DNS 7 will run in Linux with wine, DNS 8 is what I use professionally, and DNS 9 is out,but I have not tried it yet.

This is without a doubt an area Linux has significantly lagged :(

You might be interested in Adrienne Linux then:

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html

RAVTUX posteed about it in the cafe.

steven8

February 6th, 2007, 12:26 PM

Jeez, talk about mixed marriages! ;)

You betcha. I don't love one os or one type of computer or any one company. I just friggin' love computers!!!

xpod

February 6th, 2007, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by steven8 View Post
1 computer running PCDOS 3.1
1 computer running MACOS 7.5
1 computer running WIN98
1 computer running WinXP Pro
1 computer running Kubuntu Dapper

:lolflag:
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Edgy x2 with a virtual feisty & XP
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Xubuntu & Fluxubuntu(installed but "running" is another matter)
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Ubuntu/k/x & XP
1 computer with 1 hd running M.E & Xubuntu(dont say it):)
And a couple of other old machines all missing hd`s

You betcha. I don't love one os or one type of computer or any one company. I just friggin' love computers!!!

I seem to have suffered a similar condition since getting that first old M.E last spring.
Great fun these things:)

FLPCGuy

February 6th, 2007, 02:55 PM

:lolflag:
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Edgy x2 with a virtual feisty & XP
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Xubuntu & Fluxubuntu(installed but "running" is another matter)
1 computer with 2 hd`s running Ubuntu/k/x & XP
1 computer with 1 hd running M.E & Xubuntu(dont say it):)
And a couple of other old machines all missing hd`s

I seem to have suffered a similar condition since getting that first old M.E last spring.
Great fun these things:)
I've gotten rid of most of my old hardware but still play with two dual drive PC's.

1 computer running Win2k Pro, WinXP Pro, Vista Ultimate RC1, & Simply MEPIS
1 computer running WinME, 2003 Server, SuSe 9.1 Personal, & Ubuntu Edgy.

Since I installed Edgy, I barely run anything else on that older machine. It has become my favorite. I can't get Vista or MEPIS to work with my Intel 536ep winmodem on the newer PC with no serial port so it will remain primarily Win2k and XP.

I love using different OS's. Each has it's advantages and hardware generation.
I don't like Vista's DRM and hardware disabling. I do like Ubuntu's hardware compatibility.

I truly hope Ubuntu and Linux in general will not be squashed by M$ forcing hardware vendors to keep their specs secret and use digital certificate drivers for next generation hardware. The US govt. will not stop this predatory behavior, but hopefully the EU and others will stand up to M$ and the motion picture/recording industry.

bodhi.zazen

February 6th, 2007, 03:58 PM

You might be interested in Adrienne Linux then:

http://www.knopper.net/knoppix-adriane/index-en.html

RAVTUX posteed about it in the cafe.

Like OMG, so nice to see some useful information.

Hey, thanks for that Link. I came across this distro via a different channel.

But, I am glad to see this thread back on track.

Laugh often

Don't worry, be happy

xpod

February 6th, 2007, 04:50 PM

I've gotten rid of most of my old hardware but still play with two dual drive PC's.

I`ll actually be passing most of these on to others at some point this year and we only ever got that first old M.E last year to learn the basics on.We had decided to wait for the the new Vista thing to come out before buying some new pc as we reckoned learning to drive in an old car first made much more sense than jumping straight into some GTI:)

Obviously the new Vista thing is out now but plans have changed and we`ve now decided that my older 2 kids can get the laptops they now want and i might get myself something a bit flashier with some racing stripes down the side too(without a vista in sight of course).......if the wife allows it after the last 10 months she`s put up with:twisted:

I`ve actually been discussing it on msn with her from opposite ends of the house but i can still hear her shouting:lolflag:

FLPCGuy

February 6th, 2007, 05:35 PM

The extra hit for Vista is pretty significant. Most vendors are pushing at least 1 gigabyte of RAM and a dual or quad core processor rated at better than a 3 MHz Pentium (processor speed is no longer a good measure).

I must admit I've had more fun with the older, cheaper systems since I don't play video games. I'm building one last system for sale to a long time customer. It has been a real hassle. Everything is so jacked up you need a really good power supply to power a system today and I doubt these systems will last for years at the speeds they run.

Even a cheap PCChips motherboard runs at 1000 MHz and the memory is now PC6400 vs. 133 MHz a few years ago. A good video card costs as much as I used to spend to build a basic system. Where will it all end? But even a fast SATA hard drive is still the system bottleneck, especially running a bloated M$ OS.

I think I'll keep my 3 and 6 year old systems for a few more years. A new distro of Ubuntu twice a year is like having Christmas twice a year and without buying new hardware.

Trebuchet

February 6th, 2007, 07:10 PM

The extra hit for Vista is pretty significant. Most vendors are pushing at least 1 gigabyte of RAM and a dual or quad core processor rated at better than a 3 MHz Pentium (processor speed is no longer a good measure).

I must admit I've had more fun with the older, cheaper systems since I don't play video games. I'm building one last system for sale to a long time customer. It has been a real hassle. Everything is so jacked up you need a really good power supply to power a system today and I doubt these systems will last for years at the speeds they run.

Even a cheap PCChips motherboard runs at 1000 MHz and the memory is now PC6400 vs. 133 MHz a few years ago. A good video card costs as much as I used to spend to build a basic system. Where will it all end? But even a fast SATA hard drive is still the system bottleneck, especially running a bloated M$ OS.Amusingly, Intel Core 2 Duo and Core Duo CPU's are a development of the Pentium III and not the Pentium IV series, so they can use less juice than comparable Pentiums.

As for the data bottleneck, I suspect that's one reason Microsoft, AMD, and Intel are now pushing for 64-bit systems to enter the consumer market.

daller

February 6th, 2007, 08:31 PM

Come the day, MS Linux.

Sorry about being off-topic:

But see this:

http://msfirefox.com/

steven8

February 6th, 2007, 10:26 PM

Sorry about being off-topic:

But see this:

http://msfirefox.com/

Oh yeah. That's a great joke. Nice website too. :-)

Like OMG, so nice to see some useful information.

Hey, thanks for that Link. I came across this distro via a different channel.

But, I am glad to see this thread back on track.

1) Laugh often

2) Don't worry, be happy

You're welcome. Just for the record, I do not spend all of my time being a crotchety old man. I promise. :-)

I'm very excited to see all of these awesome computers and the mixed bag of OS's on them!! Isn't it a blast!! I do a lot of work on people's computers, and I suffer from separation anxiety something fierce when I have to leave them. Each machine has something new and different and fun about it. Oddly enough, I really fell in love with a little emachine I had to replace the HDD on. What a nice little rig!!

InfernalPenguin

February 7th, 2007, 06:25 PM

i installed Vista today on an empty hardrive just to see what its made of. well and its...pretty. everything seemed to work fine untill dirver install for my mobo. then came reboots"1 reboot,2 reboots,3reboots, bluescreen :) its first time i seen a bluescreen in like 2 years and it was thanx to Vista. thank you M$. dont get me wrong, before it bluescreened me i checked couple of things and i can see how it will become a popular OS, but not yet. for people that want to jump into it i say wait for SP1 for it. it has desktop applets, nice glassy look, even IE seemed to work pretty well. plus it asks you for a password if you want to make any administrative changes to it. It asked me couple of times if im sure i want to run setup.exe. In my humble opinion it takes little getting used to it, Xp i think was little more well... easy and intuitive and just simpler to use.i wouldnt trade it for my Kubuntu or even Xp for that matter, atleast not yet. thank god for Linux :)

PrinceArithon

February 8th, 2007, 02:31 AM

tacm

February 8th, 2007, 02:59 AM

Well I had a beta of media 11 a while back and it is cool BUT ITS A MICROSOFT PRODUCT When I dumped XP I dumped it all. I love Ubuntu. I do need to find a beter music program though

igknighted

February 8th, 2007, 03:11 AM

Well I had a beta of media 11 a while back and it is cool BUT ITS A MICROSOFT PRODUCT When I dumped XP I dumped it all. I love Ubuntu. I do need to find a beter music program though

Songbird is coming! Functionality and a beautiful GUI for the first time in a linux media player (OK, its cross platform, but what ev).

tacm

February 8th, 2007, 03:18 AM

I dont mind cross platform, for that matter I dont mind paying for software. I just dont want it to be a microsoft product.

bionnaki

February 8th, 2007, 03:27 AM

sudo apt-get install amarok

tacm

February 8th, 2007, 03:39 AM

sudo apt-get install amarok

Done.....Thanx Ill learn how t use it in the morning

Sammi

February 8th, 2007, 04:29 AM

I use Amarok myself and I love it. It only need a prettier interface like songbird/itunes/wmp11, then it would own em all :guitar:

mykalreborn

February 8th, 2007, 07:30 AM

i want to use banshee but they still have a little more to go. it's just so darn unstable.
wmp 11 looks to me like wmp10 only with a new skin. maybe i had a beta of it though. :D i had it installed some time ago.

kevinlyfellow

February 8th, 2007, 07:36 AM

EdThaSlayer

February 8th, 2007, 09:47 AM

Arathorn

February 8th, 2007, 09:59 AM

Now for the equal thing. Windows Media Player 11 is amazing. I find it to be just as good as Winamp, and it's totally just as good as anything that Ubuntu has to offer.
Unfortunately it's not as good as Foobar2000 (neither is Amarok, but that's quite good too, Songbird gives me nightmares though). :-P
The problem with (Ubuntu) Linux compared to Windows is that for intermediate users (not computer noobs and not expert users) things can become very annoying and frustrating. It would be a great step forward if you could just download a .deb file and even a .rpm file and click-install it, instead of having to get into the command line for every program not in a repository, just to name one thing (and I'm still waiting for decent 64 bit processor support in Ubuntu).

igknighted

February 8th, 2007, 10:20 AM

Unfortunately it's not as good as Foobar2000 (neither is Amarok, but that's quite good too, Songbird gives me nightmares though). :-P
The problem with (Ubuntu) Linux compared to Windows is that for intermediate users (not computer noobs and not expert users) things can become very annoying and frustrating. It would be a great step forward if you could just download a .deb file and even a .rpm file and click-install it, instead of having to get into the command line for every program not in a repository, just to name one thing (and I'm still waiting for decent 64 bit processor support in Ubuntu).

This is definitely a flaw in Ubuntu... and not a general linux flaw. In Fedora (I mention that because I'm testing it now, there are many others) I can download a binary (be it a .RPM or even a .bin or .run) and instead of defaulting to a text editor, I get a choice of running the program or opening via the text editor. The same is true with many other files, the default GUI handling is incredibly good with Fedora.

/* an aside for some constructive criticism - I love Ubuntu, but I don't understand its rep as a beginner distro. Many common things windows users like aren't there (java, flash, mp3, etc.), the GUI features lag behind all other major distro's (see above comments on fedora), and almost all config is done via text files. Suse, Mandriva, PCLOS, even Sabayon and Fedora all have great GUI configuration programs for various aspects of the OS that are otherwise tedious for average linux users and intimidating for new ones. As a somewhat experienced linux user, I prefer the Ubuntu approach to the hand-holding Suse does for configuration (although I love the distro otherwise), but I would much rather let a script set up the XGL session like Sabayon and Mandriva have than do it myself (especially if I'm just copying and pasting what someone else wrote, if I want to customize something thats a different story). This is the area Ubuntu is lacking in. There seem to be many projects going on to add these features, but they are third party projects and seem a) disjointed, especially in look and feel (note how Suse's Yast and Mandriva's Drake fit together very nicely... ubuntu projects seem to lack this unity) and b) a long way off from being in an official release. These little details don't affect the capabilities of the OS, and many linux purists may say it is fluff that slows development, but these little details make the OS so much more usable in a day to day setting that a distro that claims to be "linux for the masses" should really pay more attention to these details. */

Magnes

February 8th, 2007, 10:21 AM

Unfortunately it's not as good as Foobar2000 (neither is Amarok, but that's quite good too, Songbird gives me nightmares though). :-P

I think Foobar2000 is far behind Amarok :guitar:.

I need to test Songbird soon. I don't understand how people can use and like WMP.

doobit

February 8th, 2007, 11:48 AM

A friend of mine installed WM11 using automatic updates, and now he can't play any of his media. He's been on the phone with Microsoft tech support almost every day for three weeks now and they still haven't been able to help him solve the problem.

BarfBag

February 8th, 2007, 11:58 AM

If I were a Windows user with a gaming PC, I'd upgrade to Vista in a heart beat. It has better hardware support (in some ways) then XP. 64 bit and dual core, for example. Also, the next version of DirectX is going to be Vista exclusive - so XP game support will be cut.

I'm not saying I like Vista - I hate it. Other then 64 bit and dual core, it supports less then XP. I'm not trying to sound contradictory here. I'm just showing why it's important we start pushing Ubuntu. People will switch to Vista eventually, whether it's willing or forced.

PrinceArithon

February 8th, 2007, 01:45 PM

cowlip

February 8th, 2007, 01:56 PM

Alrighty, I have seen a few posts in here talking about fearing Vista's dominance over Ubuntu. It makes me kinda laugh. I'll explain.

Vista has 2 really amazing things going on for it. Seriously, as far as I'm concerned one thing is totally equal to Ubuntu and one is totally WAY better than anything Ubuntu has to offer.

First let me talk about the most amazing one. The wireless manager. Microsoft did a great job with it. I give them a lot of credit.

Now for the equal thing. Windows Media Player 11 is amazing. I find it to be just as good as Winamp, and it's totally just as good as anything that Ubuntu has to offer.

Other than these 2 things, I don't find it worth anything to be honest. The graphics are bloated, and the system acts weird. Let's not forget that privacy is totally gone on it.

Ubuntu is just better in my opinion. I'll explain what I mean.

All the top operating systems are pretty equal in their strengths and faults. I mean even Windows has some cool things it does. It's just that Linux, especially Ubuntu, is amazing. It's just much more flexible, and I have at least a little bit of privacy. The other thing to it is, there is just too much room for growth on Ubuntu, and something new is always being developed for it right away. I swear, I upgraded to Edgy and then I notice there is already a Feisty Fawn...I was puzzled as to how it came up so fast LOL.

Plus, everyone here at this forum is really cool. I have only seen but one idiot here, and he got warned for it. So what does Windows have to offer in these ways?? Nothing, and these are the points that are going to sell Ubuntu to the world I think. I know it sure got me.

You know what. I agree completely. We all know getting anything higher than WEP--or even getting the card/USB adapter working ;)-- in Linux sucks but then again that's a lot due to drivers and problems with hardware manufacturer. There's been initiative on this with kernel developer GKH saying they'll provide free drivers (although they do this anyways, now they'll operate under an NDA framework). Way too soon to see anything come of this as of yet though. And then there's the open source Nvidia driver that would be bundled into xorg if it works someday for Beryl (ati already has an equiv)

WMP11--I love it too ;) I don't really know any Linux equivalent..

Yes Vista will be a runaway success just like every other MS product (even ME) due to Dell/HP etc, but Linux has come to the point where it's better on the desktop than Windows other than these areas. Yay for some competition :)

bruce89

February 8th, 2007, 02:08 PM

I can't take an OS seriously unless it supports Vorbis out the box.

mykalreborn

February 8th, 2007, 02:13 PM

I can't take an OS seriously unless it supports Vorbis out the box.

lol. i agree with that, but think of what a windows user might say:
"I can't take an OS seriously unless it supports MP3 out the box."
;)

Sefrin

February 8th, 2007, 02:23 PM

If I were a Windows user with a gaming PC, I'd upgrade to Vista in a heart beat. It has better hardware support (in some ways) then XP. 64 bit and dual core, for example. Also, the next version of DirectX is going to be Vista exclusive - so XP game support will be cut.

Do you mean "gaming PC" as in "just bought in the last few months"?

I forget the website, but a friend of mine was checking out benchmarks and one that jumped out for us was a 30% performance drop running Unreal Tournament 2004.

kevinlyfellow

February 8th, 2007, 02:27 PM

I've heard that vista doesn't support OpenGL yet, so any games based on that will be broken for now

saulgoode

February 8th, 2007, 02:33 PM

BarfBag, you hit on a good point. It's the idea of gaming that is going to make Ubuntu or just Linux in general win or lose.

If you ask me that is what they should work on. There needs to be a program that emulates really easy for installing games. The other ones out there are little difficult at times...

This article (Gaming Perspective) (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective) suggests that gaming is not such an attraction as it is made out to be. Would you care to provide a more in-depth analysis of your assertion? (I am not trying to deny your point, I just think it deserves more substantiation before I accept its validity.)

bruce89

February 8th, 2007, 03:02 PM

lol. i agree with that, but think of what a windows user might say:
"I can't take an OS seriously unless it supports MP3 out the box."
;)

I was just commenting on what it would be like from our side really. MP3's fidelity is crap anyway, its only good thing is it doesn't support DRM.

seijuro

February 8th, 2007, 04:10 PM

PrinceArithon

February 9th, 2007, 02:05 AM

This article (Gaming Perspective) (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/gamingperspective) suggests that gaming is not such an attraction as it is made out to be. Would you care to provide a more in-depth analysis of your assertion? (I am not trying to deny your point, I just think it deserves more substantiation before I accept its validity.)

I can see what you are saying with that article. It makes a lot of sense. I agree with it, the thing is I didn't just have adults in mind. I had teenagers in mind as well. Since October....I've been doing all I can to market Ubuntu to people. Plenty of times I talked to Teenagers. For the ones that even knew about Linux, they said the only reason why they refuse to even go with Linux is the lack of gaming support for such games as World of Warcraft and other games just like it. One even tried Linux, but when he had problems with wine he didn't want to even go farther with Linux.

Also, let's look at China. I work with Chinese people who come to the US to learn English. Granted China is still dirt poor, plenty of people do have the computers though. In fact there is no other country that has more internet users than China, except for the US. The US still has more. Anyway, these students are anywhere from the ages of 18 to 25. I would say that the majority of them play WOW. Now I converted about 3% of them to Linux already....my biggest problem in getting any of the others to even try Ubuntu is because you have to go through hell to set up WOW.

So as you can see, I made my statement because of my own experience. Also, I didn't mean that it would kill off Linux as a desktop OS right away. I was thinking more down the road, like in a 5 to 10 year span. So yeah, my statement might be from some more personal experience...I do have to admit that. Still I agree that gaming isn't as big as a lot of people make it out to be. Yet, I think it can really be a deciding factor a lot of times for Teenagers, Foreigners, and 40% of all adults in the US....or whatever the percentage was that was in the article.

But, seriously big guy, thanks for questioning it and being cool about it.

guitarmaniac

February 9th, 2007, 02:16 AM

I hate windows media player 11.
the interface LOOKS beautiful, but as far as I'm concerned its not as functional or intuitive as version 10.
however media player 10 is just as good if not better than amarok (though amarok has many more features) it was is the one program i miss from XP.
just my opinion though.

guitarmaniac

February 9th, 2007, 02:17 AM

I use Amarok myself and I love it. It only need a prettier interface like songbird/itunes/wmp11, then it would own em all :guitar:

so true

Chop

February 9th, 2007, 02:32 AM

I've tooled a bit with Vista in a comptuer retailer as well. I'm impressed. I'm impressed that it's taken this long for MS to finally get a few things right that have been around for years in Linux Distros and MacOS. Ah, at last the general log-in does not automatically default to administrator. Finally, a fast, intuitive, and integrated Search function. Sure there are some special aspects unique to Vista that are hard to match. But alas, beyond the glitz, Vista should have been released years back as XP.
And similar to XP, security once again falls into the hands and pocketbooks of the users. New though it is, there are already recommendations to purchase 3rd party Anti-Virus software on top of the already very pricey Vista. The kernal is still fundamentally the same as XP, but with some band aids and antibiotics.
And ethically, Microsoft's dominance in the market, it's anti-competition behaviors, it's iron fist
copyright philosophy, it's disregard for privacy; this is not a good company.
Linux will continue to develop, and with humane endeavors such as Edubuntu, will continue to meet the needs of more people in even more effective ways. Vista and MS have a lifespan, one that I see Linux surpassing, for free. Cheers!

Sunnz

February 9th, 2007, 05:02 AM

I tried vista on a machine at an office store. I don't see the big deal with the graphics. I also was bombarded with several eulas and constantly windows wanted to confirm if I wanted to run a program that i told it to run... no ubuntu does not have anything to worry about except getting distributed effectively.
Lol, you got to watch this:

http://images.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/apple-getamac-security_848x496.mov

Probably the ad with most fact in the whole 'Get a Mac' history.

PrinceArithon

February 9th, 2007, 01:10 PM

HAHAHA that is a great commercial.

You know, it really seems that a lot of crazy commercials have been coming out for and against Vista. I seen one when Vista was still called Longhorn. It had Napoleon Dynamite in it. It was pretty funny...but then again I'm a fan of that movie.

Still, it's a hilarious commercial.

http://www.kissmyass.com/index.php?params=media/5239/Bill-Gates-and-Napoleon-Dynamite../

Here is a link to it.

Anyway, I'm glad to see that no one is afraid of Vista.

der_joachim

February 9th, 2007, 02:49 PM

Being on par with Winamp is not a plus. Winamp is a piece of carp. Being an ex Winamp user (used it from 1.0 up back when I ran windows) I saw a huge drop in performance when they went from 2.x to 3.x and I'm sure has they have continued to pile on the graphic tweaks and visualizations it has gotten far worse. Amarok has everything I can ask for from an audio player I don't even look at the gui I use the advanced play list features and leave it iconed in my system tray while working on other stuff and it's track title pop ups are much nicer looking imo than any of the windows players I have used IF they even had that feature.

IMHO comparing winamp to Amarok is like comparing a deck of cards to a top of the bill Information Retrieval system. Amarok enables me to find music quickly in my 15 gigs of music files. Putting up a similar playlist in winamp would take me so much more time.

Media player is an insult to the music lover. Apart from the closed .wmv format, it was apparently released by people who deeply distrust and probably despise you. Some time ago I popped in a legally bought audio CD. I actually paid good money in order to call that CD my own and I have never regretted that decision ever since, because the artist in question is a very good artist. Furthermore, I bought it at a local small music store, which is owned by somebody who actually likes music and who actually respects his customers.
The first thing I see is a thumbnail of the cover on my screen. That's okay. That's what any modern music player does. The thing that rubbed me the wrong way though was that it was an ad from the MSN music store, that urged me to buy it. Not only do they assume that I somehow stole the CD or copied it, they also assumed that I am stupid enough to buy it (again I might add) at their overpriced music store.

This rant is not nearly as offtopic as it seems. Vista (and other Microsoft products) is a DRM ridden beast. It is built on an inherent mistrust towards its users. Furthermore, for some reason Microsoft seems to think that its users are morons. The default XP looked like a toy for a three year old with its teletubby landscape and its large multicolor buttons. MAny advances computer users feel that they are either not taken seriously (eg: the Fisher Price look and feel) or they are just plain loathed (Media Player).

This sounds too much like microsoft bashing for my taste. They did do a few good things. IE7 is a lot more decent than its predecessor (although it still has a long way to go) and MS Office is IMHO still better than its counterparts (although I have not seen a recent WordPerfect in years). That and I really liked Age of Empires. :)

PrinceArithon

February 9th, 2007, 04:41 PM

I don't think they did that thinking you are a retard or that you stole anything per se....Well maybe partially.

I agree with you on the XP look. It did have a teletuby look to it. I could never explain it before, but now I know how to explain it....Teletuby...I like that.

As for some of the other comments. I agree that Amarok is amazing. It's the only one I use for Linux....well it's really the only one I use period unless I'M on Windows looking at Porn LOL.

Still I feel Winamp still kicks a lot of ***. It works exactly how I want it to...but then again I don't ask much from it.

Klaidas

February 9th, 2007, 05:04 PM

Yeah, I've been using linux for some time now, Micrsoft shouldn't bother either.

Can we stop this anti-vista campaign now?

macogw

February 9th, 2007, 06:51 PM

I had Vista for 4 days then went "I want Linux back!!" and uninstalled the darn thing. Bleh. I had someone asking if Beryl was Vista, and I told them Vista can't do any of this. They asked about system requirements, and I said that with all my regular apps, Beryl, and DVD going on 1gig, I never touched a page file. Normal use, I'm under 512mb in use.

jeffc313

February 9th, 2007, 07:09 PM

aero adn beryl in my opinion are comple\tely useless. I see no need for either. Ubuntu or linux in general will probably get no larger user base, which in my opinion is NOT the goal of GNU/Linux, but people will probably just switch to macs in 2 or so years, which i feel is not even a lesser of the evils buyt just as bad </rambling>

macogw

February 9th, 2007, 07:13 PM

jeffc313, beryl is *impressive* to end users though. I've had a bunch of people look at my computer and go "wooooooaaaahhhh how'd you do THAT?!" From a tech perspective, it's useless. From a neat computing experience, it's fun! And we do need a bigger user base. It's not a market thing, it's an installed base thing. The larger that is, the easier it is to push companies into supporting Linux on their hardware. It used to be really hard to find stuff for Macs. Since they got more popular, I see "Mac/PC" everywhere now. As Linux gets more popular, we can shop without research a lot easier. I *have* seen boxes labeled "Mac/Win/Linux" before, and that's always nice to see.

jeffc313

February 9th, 2007, 07:16 PM

dalani

February 9th, 2007, 08:43 PM

What's the big deal anyways about Vista. My harddrive the other day crashed my dual boot Windows/Unbuntu. SO Im getting a new and better harddrive and guess which OS im installing? Well let's see: Microsoft never gave me an install CD when they put their OS for free when I bought my computer; but Ubuntu sent me their CD in the mail. So Unbutu it is. It's that simple. I know Unbuntu can support their OS on older and new machines. I dont buy any hardware unless I know it can work with Linux.

I miss having a IM webcam support for Linux though.

macogw

February 9th, 2007, 09:45 PM

zubrug

February 9th, 2007, 09:58 PM

At best buy today I was listening in to a sales associate tell some mature couple that they could watch high def. dvd's. This is not true, vista will not allow blue ray and hd dvd's to play at full res.. In the new user contract it even states that microsoft can delete media on your computer that it deems pirated.
http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/news/business/story.html?id=f2902d5f-4dc5-49d3-b14e-5329aeb9e499

dalani

February 10th, 2007, 07:29 AM

On that note: Today’s hype tomorrow’s dust
More and more we see signs that content and creativity gets usurped and cast asdide by the technologies that’s supposed to help us communicate. Worse than McCluan’s 'medium is the message' adage, we see evidence of the medium being no message but planned obsolescence that will drag down creative content to waste. Now creative content in any given medium in a propriotory file format, current video game tech or recording media will be replaced with newer tech but what happens to the content??? It’s the sinking ship theory whose content goes down with it. Unique videogames designed for today’s Xbox will be forgotten and dusty relics when newer holographic technologies come along. Who remembers Metriod on the first Nitendos? or the countless vinyl singles that never made it through the music recording mediatransition to CDs in the 90s. So choose well how you choose to communicate your ideas, family pictures if they matter to you at all. Because invariably, technologies get surplanted.

Did I mention the real eason I mistrust Vista and favor linux? Because I know Linux will not disrespect my data or privacy.

dean_z

February 10th, 2007, 08:02 AM

I agree with you. Linux I don't think will EVER go into my computer and snoop around like microsoft will. I am fairly new to Linux in general, but I love Ubuntu! and the whole Linux concept of low cost. My two cents worth.

PrinceArithon

February 11th, 2007, 03:13 AM

macogw

February 11th, 2007, 03:18 AM

dalani, that's why microfilm is the standard for preserving history. you can always shine a light through and have it work.

and i have a lot of vinyl records in my dorm. i actually have a lot of cds that i'm disappointed weren't released on vinyl as well

akshaysrinivasan

February 12th, 2007, 03:38 AM

Well the problem is Vista is made for people who can afford high end systems , most of the devoloping countries cannot be bothered about Vista ,so i think Linux systems can flourish in these environments-which is good isn't it?Microsoft has to come up with something much more promising , they probably could have gone apple's way ,by making a new OS based on Unix kernel and then providing backward compatibility instead of useless 3d filp ,atleast for the first time it would be secure out of the box !

samdude9

February 12th, 2007, 08:20 AM

I've used both vista and linux - linux all the way!

Switching to linux is one of the best things a developer can do!

jorgerosa

February 13th, 2007, 01:11 AM

"Ubuntu has no fear" - How could he have?
I work with Windows for ages, and, of course, with MS Windows Vista now.
It may be better in the design way (well designed GUIs), and a much more easy way to install aplications. But... He does what he should! People payied for it!
Now, the easy way to install things on Ubuntu is on the right way (Should be more easy to install things without internet). The community is working on better and more GUIs.
About the price!
You just can´t compare the simple Windows OS itself with Ubuntu.
Windows is almost the only application that you are paying for.
And in Ubuntu there is the OS and the "rest" of bundle.
Just try to calculate the "rest": MsOfficce, Photoshop, Corel Draw, etc. And im not talking about mounting a MS server! In this case you must sell your house and your car first...
Try to search the prices: Windows Server + MSSQL, etc... for unlimited clients...

pirithiumx

February 13th, 2007, 10:17 PM

I have been using Vista and as a Windows and Linux User I will have to say that there are certain things you expect or are used to when you sit down and use a Windows box and MS has ripped all of it. I mean an experienced Windows user will sit somewhat stunned the first time using vista. Looking for folder default options the run button etc. I will admit the graphics are nice but the underlying system feels (fails) like xp64. which did not work for anything.
The gadgets seem to have memory leaks and the side bar at times (after sitting over a weekend) consumed 45-50% of the processor and needed to be closed.
Most printer drivers will not work (example: HP color laser jet 3500)
My opinion is- 1. Nothing new or innovative.
2. Same Class as Windows ME 2
3. Not worth $399.00 (Vista Ultimate)
4. I am terrified of having it used in my business.
5. The MAC commercial with the vista security guy - is not exagerated.
6. Don't like giving DNA samples just to be authorized to install.
7. 3rd reich Nazi and Microsoft rallys look more alike all the time.

I have been pushing Kubuntu for windows converts more often.
Friends don't let friends use Vista.

remember if you don't take my word for it then it will only cost you $400.00 us to find out for yourself.
I know.. I just don't want to be the only sucker.

To be honest I am an IT Admin on a windows 2000 domian and had to revert back to windows XP after a week due to instability and compatability issues.
Personally I run 2 Windows XP Machines and 2 Kubuntu edgy machines.
I will not try vista again at least until SP2 or equivalent is released.

wh0rd

February 13th, 2007, 10:45 PM

I know Windows Guru's won't even switch to Vista yet because they don't think it's stable yet. In my opinion XP is probably a better operating system than Vista.

Comparing Ubuntu to Vista? :lolflag:
There's 2 upgrades of Ubuntu every year. With Open Source just expanding like it is, there really isn't any competition. GUI will get boring, specially when you can't change a GUI. Beryl currently offers GUI that neither Vista or OSX have yet, and this is only the start. Ubuntu has raw technology and is a better progress in computer science than Vista. If you like being chained with proprietary software then Vista is a better OS.

Rodneyck

February 14th, 2007, 02:12 AM

Here is a great piece on Vista...

Windows Vista, The best thing that ever happened to Linux?

Microsoft Windows Vista has hit town in a big way, with worldwide release parties, massive media attention and plenty of controversy. It has been five years since Microsoft released Windows XP and a lot has changed, Microsoft needs a big win with Vista and they are pulling out all the stops. Microsoft however have taken many risks and the next six months could be very telling. Although Windows is still ubiquitous in most parts of the developed world, the market is changing and people are starting to do their homework.

More...

http://www.linuxforums.org/misc/windows_vista,_the_best_thing_that_ever_happened_t o_linux.html

imike

February 14th, 2007, 12:50 PM

Microsoft Vista is more stable than windows XP but the only problem is cost and compatibility
__________________
sizegenetics review (http://www.bestdevices.info/sizegenetics/) exercises (http://www.bestexercises.info/) patches (http://www.bestpatches.info/) pills (http://www.bestofpills.info/) skincare (http://www.tipsonskincare.info/)

Rodneyck

February 14th, 2007, 12:57 PM

Microsoft Vista is more stable than windows XP but the only problem is cost and compatibility
__________________
devices (http://www.bestdevices.info/) exercises (http://www.bestexercises.info/) patches (http://www.bestpatches.info/) pills (http://www.bestofpills.info/) skincare (http://www.tipsonskincare.info/)

Personally, I have never had XP crash on me and it always seemed stable in its architecture. If you mean stable as in more protected from virus/trogans/firewalls and whatnot, well, just hold onto your suspenders. Reports are already coming in, but the real showstoppers are waiting on the sidelines for Vista to be widely available. From the buzz in the hacker world, Vista is in for a ride.

Lets re-address that stable bit in about 6 months.

ukripper

February 15th, 2007, 08:14 AM

In corporate world companies are scared to take a plunge in linux pool because of management fears of training staff for new OS would cost them(as they think). Ignoring the fact, massive savings which could be made with Linux. All I have to say goodluck to IT directors for sticking to their obscure mentality and the bullying intentions of propriateries to manipulate minds of vulnerable managements.

flyinsquirrel992

February 15th, 2007, 10:39 AM

As far as the Aero interface, its nice to see a better look to Windows, above all in the Windows world Vista is a HUGE improvement. It may be buggy right now, but remember when you upgraded to XP? Wait for the first service pack if you want Vista to be ok, its still in its growing stages and its yet to be a part of the dominent market.

Now that I've said that, i want to point out that I'm will probly NEVER have an instalation of Windows on my own computer, and I have no idea why the Aero interface needs an extra 512 RAM (1 gig total) to run at minimum.

PartisanEntity

February 15th, 2007, 11:07 AM

According to the IT guy at our office Vista now requires you to enter an admin password when installing or playing around with hardware drivers, if that's true then it would be a great step in making windows more secure, but that's all I know about the improvements in Vista.

I was however quite impressed with MS Office 2007 and Outlook 2007, again our IT guy showed me some of the improvements: in outlook 07 they now have very nice colour coded categories (which I personally found quite nice), you can make flow cycles very nicely and they are dynamic (add more cycle steps, change colour and layout (2d or 3d).

As far as MS is concerned I have always found their strength to be in MS Office and Outlook, here the world of Linux still needs to improve, especially when it comes to making an alternative to Outlook (which I use heavily and miss ever since having switched to Ubuntu fully).

jorgerosa

February 15th, 2007, 07:59 PM

I love LINUX (because its free) its Windows Vista better? Like you said, after ServicePacks, he could be much better, even better than UBUNTU is. I agree with you.
BUT ubuntu is on the right way, and we will have one OS every six months! (with all the services packs)!
So for now he is in improvements, but soon he will be the best SO avaiable, ive no doubt.
And its FREE always FREE! No f*****g hidden licences!!!

UBUNTU its not just an OS its a GIFT from guys that you dont even know!
Can you criticize a FREE GIFT?

Is windows vista better? yes?
OK, So guys lets help this project with our work to make UBUNTU fly!

Omnios

February 15th, 2007, 08:08 PM

Well is Vista better? Well maybe if you have a min of 512 megs of high speed ram. Maybe if you have a new 256meg video card. Maybe if you have a very fast processor. Maybe if stores actually sold it.

Now I do a lot of walking and traveling to appointments which has many computer shops on the way which I frequent. I stopped off at one computer shop and was talking to the owner. Anyways I asked him how Vista was going and he told me the above. He also stated he will not sell computers with Vista yet and will probably wait a year to make shur things are ok with it. He planes to ship his computers with XP instead.

On this Vista seems to be at par with Linux as stores do not want to sell or even give out Linux as an os because people will expect support from the computer stores. On a bright note there is a computer reseller that ships with Linux nad has linux support. I still have to track down this store to see what they have.

Basicly what I am getting is you need a high end computer or as stated a "new Computer to run it properly.

Now as a note I am not bashing windows but stating the facts from my conversations with store owners. And Vista is not selling in this area that well but I think it has to do with a lot of older hardware in this area.

Sefrin

February 16th, 2007, 12:26 AM

It may be buggy right now, but remember when you upgraded to XP? Wait for the first service pack if you want Vista to be ok, its still in its growing stages and its yet to be a part of the dominent market.

Is this true? I'm getting tired of developers releasing unfinished products and having users download patch x.x for it to work the way it's supposed to. If I pay for it, it should be done.

dbbolton

February 16th, 2007, 02:14 AM

again, everything has to be a competition.

PrinceArithon

February 16th, 2007, 02:16 AM

Well to be honest with you. I don't feel Vista or Ubuntu is better. What I feel is they both have their strengths and weaknesses. We know of MS's ability to put out a pile of garbage and then have to give a service pack to fix it. Yet we also know of Ubuntu's inability to work right out of the box most of the time. Those are 2 things we will have problems with, in these OS's for a while it seems...

The real point is that Ubuntu easily hangs with Vista, and that's only using Dapper or Edgy. I'm sure Feisty will be fine too. The thing is, this post is kinda preaching to the choir. We already know that the majority of us prefer Linux for many reasons compared to Windows, and that is fine of course. We also know that there will be people who prefer Windows over Linux.

As for Vista. I liked things about Vista that were different from what other people liked. I liked Vista's wireless and I liked WMP 11. Someone else said they liked MS Office 2007....I hated office 2007...I just don't like the functionality and the positioning of it's buttons and all that.

So I guess I just want to say it's all taste and preference. I just prefer Ubuntu. I enjoy it far more than anything Windows has to offer OS wise. I love the flexibility. The flexibility is just perfect for who I am.

So it doesn't matter in the end what Ubuntu is better at than Vista, or vice versa. They both suck at some things and they both are amazing at other things. Is one technically better than the other?? I'm sure one is, but I don't really know for sure because I'm not an OS master, nor do I really care to be honest with you. All I know is Ubuntu is better, better for me. Also, I Know that Vista isn't so gloriously and grandly better than Ubuntu as well.

forcesofhabit

February 16th, 2007, 02:32 AM

saulgoode

February 16th, 2007, 06:51 AM

I was reading a magazine the other day, and I'm not sure if it would bring a noticeable difference in performance, but Vista has an option to use a USB pen drive in the same manner as standard RAM. At least that's what I've gathered from the article. I wish I could remember the magazine.

Anyways, that feature was quite appealing. Not enough to make me switch back though... I don't think any feature Vista had would do that.

My understanding of that feature is that the USB pendrive is mainly used by Vista to speed up rebooting. Pendrives are faster than harddrives to read (at least, they can be) but they are very slow to write to. Windows will write (I assume as a background process) its startup files -- libraries, processes, and the "registry" (if they still use that beast) so that when the user reboots, they can be read from the pendrive instead of the slower harddrive.

It is a useful feature if you find yourself frequently rebooting -- I suspect that it would be a waste of a pendrive for most Linux installations (I have turned off my main machine less than a dozen times in the past two years; mainly to move it or protect it during thunderstorms).

colonelk

February 16th, 2007, 07:28 AM

I like both Vista and Ubuntu.

Can't use Ubuntu in the office because there is still no easy way of joining it to an AD domain and implementing group policy on it. Ubuntu also doesn't support all our networked printers, and its wireless support is less than stellar :rolleyes:

Till they get a handle on interoperability with MS back end, then I can't migrate to Linux full time.

Is Ubuntu suitable for computer novices? in my opinion no. I'm an IT professional yet the amount of times I have to trawl through this forum to fix stuff broken by a kernal update (like wireless) is amazing. Do you really expect a novice to find out how to recompile packages for a new kernel?

The Microsoft monopoly will not be broken until Linux becomes an option at purchase by means of an OEM pre-install. Then it needs to be properly supported by hardware OEM's so that updates to kernal or driver packages or software packages do not break the installed hardware. If this takes a bit of proprietary drivers and management then in my opinion, so be it.

Regards to all

DoctorMO

February 16th, 2007, 07:58 AM

Till they get a handle on interoperability with MS back end, then I can't migrate to Linux full time.

You people are very confused, this isn't some product made by some company; there is no one to complain to. if you want to be free and use an MS back end then stop moaning and start programming or at the very least paying for someone else to get that job done.

I'm sorry but you guys just want a free lunch and then complain because it doesn't come with the right silverware.

flyinsquirrel992

February 16th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Is this true? I'm getting tired of developers releasing unfinished products and having users download patch x.x for it to work the way it's supposed to. If I pay for it, it should be done.

Agreed, fully. But in a Windows world this is how it is and I don't think any thing will change this. The first service pack is the only thing that will make Vista reasonable to work with.

You people are very confused, this isn't some product made by some company; there is no one to complain to. if you want to be free and use an MS back end then stop moaning and start programming or at the very least paying for someone else to get that job done.

I'm sorry but you guys just want a free lunch and then complain because it doesn't come with the right silverware.

He isn't complaining, hes just stating his opinion, and in a Vista vs. Ubuntu debate, i think this is a valid arguement.

darrenm

February 16th, 2007, 09:51 AM

It would be a great step forward if you could just download a .deb file and even a .rpm file and click-install it, instead of having to get into the command line for every program not in a repository, just to name one thing (and I'm still waiting for decent 64 bit processor support in Ubuntu).

Um... you can. Try clicking a .deb file in firefox, or downloading a .deb then double clicking it.

darrenm

February 16th, 2007, 09:59 AM

Interesting Vista review:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/14/pricey_beta_bugger/

$880 for the full edition?! Oh and the window stacker wont allow you to cycle backwards... hmm.

forcesofhabit

February 16th, 2007, 11:53 AM

darrenm

February 16th, 2007, 12:06 PM

Especially in Feisty...

PrinceArithon

February 16th, 2007, 12:14 PM

You people are very confused, this isn't some product made by some company; there is no one to complain to. if you want to be free and use an MS back end then stop moaning and start programming or at the very least paying for someone else to get that job done.

I'm sorry but you guys just want a free lunch and then complain because it doesn't come with the right silverware.

Yeah I was just going to say I don't think he is complaining. I think he is just stating a fact. I agree with him though. Yet there isn't a lot that can be done. MS is notorious for making it very hard for non MS products to work with MS products....After all this is a Microsoft world....That's why it is our job to make it more equal with Linux. Ubuntu can seriously bridge the gap. In fact the kind of Utopia I'M looking for is a world where MS, Linux, and MAC are all on a pretty equal playing field. It wouldn't hurt for one to get better than the other once in a while either, but at least still be pretty equal.

colonelk

February 16th, 2007, 12:44 PM

DoctorMO

February 16th, 2007, 04:21 PM

antharr

February 16th, 2007, 04:42 PM

I use Amarok myself and I love it. It only need a prettier interface like songbird/itunes/wmp11, then it would own em all :guitar:

XMMS is a Winamp clone. You can even use Winamp skins with it. I just stumbled upon it the other day and I could swear I was using Winamp. Even all the menus are basically the same.

PrinceArithon

February 17th, 2007, 12:22 AM

Hehehe you are right I wasn't complaining. :D

This thread is about Ubuntu v Vista and I'm clearly stating the reasons why in MY enterprise, I cannot yet consider Ubuntu as an option. We paid for our Microsoft products and I would be equally as willing to pay for a Linux distro that met ALL of my needs the way Windows does (even with MS Windows quirks and irritations....)

Where does everyone keep getting this is a Ubuntu v Vista thread?? This is an Ubuntu is on equal ground with Vista thread actually....or at least that is what I intended it for to kinda get all the people who are worried about Vista's new look....

JAPrufrock

February 17th, 2007, 12:27 AM

mushroom

February 17th, 2007, 04:18 AM

Ah, sorry not complaining but certainly your enterprise doesn't place value on morality obviously. it's aright as long as _your_ computers work eh.

You can't sit there saying that Linux doesn't meet your needs when your needs are shaped by a company that has been controlling and manipulating the industry to the point that they were hauled in front of courts, convicted and _still_ continue to practice their own brand of business.

How is that right?

We're all selectively blind, but at least don't be blind when it comes to something as trivial as computer software.

I'm sure he's well-aware of Microsoft's business practices, because how can you not be if you've even heard of Linux? Hatred of Microsoft is upon what many Linux communities thrive. But that's beside the point.

You sound like PETA, picketing McDonald's restaurants so you can deprive someone from enjoying a delicious slice of inhumanely cared for, brutally murdered blood-stained cow. You're dumping all over some guy who just wants his computers to work. Who are you to say that it's immoral whether he does such a thing? Windows is what works for him right now, there are no alternatives at this point in time. Funding MS is simply a necessary evil.

MS certainly didn't "shape" his needs; companies choose who to develop for, and those companies just happened to have the tools he needed. Linux as a whole is still quite unpopular as a desktop/workstation solution. It's rising, though, and as it is, more and more developers will consider it a profitable platform. Until then, people choose what works for them. Unless, of course, you can get PC owners worldwide to give a hoot about it (not saying it's a good thing that they don't, but still) and incite revolution by wiping Windows and installing some Free OS, but that's very unlikely.

Things will change, slowly but surely. In the mean time, just accept that sacrifices have to be made occasionally.

Sunnz

February 17th, 2007, 10:45 AM

Is this true? I'm getting tired of developers releasing unfinished products and having users download patch x.x for it to work the way it's supposed to. If I pay for it, it should be done.

No, you just DO NOT understand the Microsoft philosophy.

Just to quote from the man, Ballmer, when asked about 'customers': "We call them beta-testers."

raptros-v76

February 17th, 2007, 01:36 PM

PrinceArithon

February 17th, 2007, 01:40 PM

well, thats why i dont use windows. that, and the cooler things of ubuntu and linux in general. then again, many of the things i value in linux may be what most people are terrified. ubuntu has done well in balancing these things

I think I kinda feel the same as you about the valuing the things people are terrified about. I think that is what makes Linux special, well partially why.

Rodneyck

February 17th, 2007, 01:52 PM

Just a reminder that MS is not the only one that spies on you and reports home with information. Installing other proprietary software, which many so freely do without thinking, on Linux can just as bad, or in the least a cautionary action.

Realtime (realtime player) on Linux, opens ports in your router automatically, even through the password protection. I assume this is for their streaming media capabilities, but who knows, and more importantly, that action puts the user at risk. Check your router's ports often!

Skype is another app that reports home and has been known for its questionable snooping accountability in the past. See link...

http://it.slashdot.org/it/07/02/07/0146245.shtml

My point is...know what you are installing and question the company behind the software.

kcy29581

February 17th, 2007, 01:54 PM

UBUNTU its not just an OS its a GIFT from guys that you dont even know!
Can you criticize a FREE GIFT?

"Hi, my name is Mr Bomber. Here's a FREE GIFT! Might blow up your house, but hey IT'S FREE!!!"

"Hi, I'm your great aunt Petunia. Here's a piece of **** for your birthday; IT'S FREE!"

"Hi son, here's that new Power Ranger toy you always wanted; IT's FREE!"

(How do you know what you're getting for free - good or bad?)

Anyone that actually knows about the philosophy of Open Source, would realise that it's not about the price tag, it's about the community, the shared knowledge. I'm sorry, but just because something is free, it does NOT mean that it is beyond criticism; if that was the case, then why does anyone bother mentioning bugs? Bug tracking is a very good type of criticism.

Remember people, just because Ubuntu is Free, it does not mean we cannot point out its flaws, or compare it to proprietary OSs.

VorDesigns

February 17th, 2007, 05:50 PM

(Personal retitling: GNULinux Paradigm vs. Microsoft Subscription based proprietery BlOatS paradigm)
-
"I have never had Windows XP crash on me"
-
Anyone who can "honestly" say that Windows XP has never crashed on them either hasn't turned it on or needs to actually log in. I have supported Windows for too long to buy that lie.
-
Linux won't work at the corporate level
-
Clearly, somebody hasn't been reading much in the way of business computing news for the last several years. Interestingly, they are here on this board.
I have corporate level clients who are trying to run Linux distributions with some success. The ironic issue for several of them is trying to find ports of the original unix clients for their ERP applications that are ports of Unix applications. Surprise surprise, pre-Microsoft ERP applications (the mainstay of business) are still running strong in the corporate environment.
That is not to say that it is all wine and roses, it isn't. On the other hand, going to Vista on anything that is going to run halfway well means a massive outlay of funds not only for hardware but and more importantly for Vista compatible applications.
-
The next piece of the puzzle comes in the form of core office productivity apps; OOo does that and OMG, it opens MSO files except for Access which is no great loss (I support that abortion regularly and have written code for it as well).
-
There are numerous and exciting resources for corporate level reporting or Business Intelligence in the Linux world that are being leveraged either freely or economically (Jasper Reports for instance). The Win alternatives are horribly expensive (Business Objects for instance).
-
Currently the biggest problem I see with embracing Linux over Microsoft is the existing dollar investment in WinOS applications on the business side and that fact that there aren't a lot of good documents for running games on Wine. And when the big game developers start porting to Linux, you will see another surge in Linux popularity.
-
In closing, you can do more with Linux using less hardware for a lot less money. This makes too much business sense to ignore.

Rodneyck

February 17th, 2007, 06:29 PM

PrinceArithon

February 17th, 2007, 08:46 PM

"Hi, my name is Mr Bomber. Here's a FREE GIFT! Might blow up your house, but hey IT'S FREE!!!"

"Hi, I'm your great aunt Petunia. Here's a piece of **** for your birthday; IT'S FREE!"

"Hi son, here's that new Power Ranger toy you always wanted; IT's FREE!"

(How do you know what you're getting for free - good or bad?)

Anyone that actually knows about the philosophy of Open Source, would realise that it's not about the price tag, it's about the community, the shared knowledge. I'm sorry, but just because something is free, it does NOT mean that it is beyond criticism; if that was the case, then why does anyone bother mentioning bugs? Bug tracking is a very good type of criticism.

Remember people, just because Ubuntu is Free, it does not mean we cannot point out its flaws, or compare it to proprietary OSs.

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!! You so got it correct.

Mateo

February 17th, 2007, 09:20 PM

I don't see such a big difference. Vista might have this "eye-candy aero glass interface" but Linux users have this "eye candy beryl type of thing".The only difference is that Vista needs quite a bit of registration/validation and Ubuntu doesn't.

the difference is that windows users have no choice whether they want to use aero or not, they have to use it.

Also it eats up at minimum 1gb of memory. My XP computer makes busy noise all the time while idling, I'd hate to see what vista does.

Coelocanth

February 17th, 2007, 09:29 PM

I've been using XP for 4+ years, and it's never crashed on me. Not once. Call me a liar if you want, I don't care. But it's never crashed on me.

kcy29581

February 17th, 2007, 10:57 PM

AMEN, AMEN, AMEN!!!! You so got it correct.
Thanks mate, it's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks like this. :)

GFree

February 17th, 2007, 11:18 PM

the difference is that windows users have no choice whether they want to use aero or not, they have to use it.
How'd you figure? You can easily disable Aero and return to a basic, or classic GUI. I know, because I tried installing it on a crappy PC which had a GeForce 2. Vista determined the video card was crap, so it prevented Aero from being enabled.

Also it eats up at minimum 1gb of memory. My XP computer makes busy noise all the time while idling, I'd hate to see what vista does.
Vista thrashes the living hell out of the drives. Due to SuperFetch (where all free RAM is cached and released as necessary), the memory requirements look heavy since Vista has a different memory system to previous version of Windows (or even Linux). I have no idea if it's "better" or not, but it definitely causes more disk activity.

Frak

February 17th, 2007, 11:44 PM

Huh, I had it happen to me about 10 minutes after I logged in this morning, first time in about a year and a half, but still, pretty coincidental.

kamaboko

February 18th, 2007, 02:47 AM

Well...I just have to put in my .02 cents. My beef with Vista is the sheer amount of power and memory it requires to run at optimal levels. Seriously, to run it with all the eye candy at a nice snappy speed requires a dual core anything and at least 2GB of memory. That is ridiculous. It's just a desktop OS for God's sake. We're not launching rockets to Mars with it. LOL.

Let's call Vista for what it is: forced obsolescence with no justifiable, quantifiable, or rational explanation for the added expense.

PrinceArithon

February 18th, 2007, 02:56 AM

Thanks mate, it's good to see I'm not the only one who thinks like this. :)

Dude, truth is truth. I applaud it when it is spoken. Also, sometimes pointing out things like how you did, can make someone think and realize things from a different angle.

flyinsquirrel992

February 18th, 2007, 04:41 AM

Interesting Vista review:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/14/pricey_beta_bugger/

$880 for the full edition?! Oh and the window stacker wont allow you to cycle backwards... hmm.

http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=368&name=Operating-Systems
Isn't Vista 100 dollars and Ultimate is 200?

The only one in there thats close to 880 is 600, and thats a 3 pack dvd oem...

Soarer

February 18th, 2007, 05:27 AM

http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=368&name=Operating-Systems
Isn't Vista 100 dollars and Ultimate is 200?

The only one in there thats close to 880 is 600, and thats a 3 pack dvd oem...

You're right - for the USA. Unfortunately for those of us who live in lesser countries, like in Europe, MS wants, on average, about twice as many dollars from us as from you.

I guess electrons are more expensive this side of the pond.

trav5

February 18th, 2007, 05:38 AM

I seen Vista

I think we should have an English HOW TO on the forums.

uNmentaLogic

February 18th, 2007, 07:30 AM

Trebuchet the UAC kicks in when you run anything that may harm the system or make changes that affect the system rather than the user, as you mentioned installing programs. It is also activated when you click on anything that has a shield next to it. The good news is that UAC does not kick in when you change your wallpaper, accept an incoming message from any PC's including macs :) or come to a sad realisation (cancel or allow). Generally it is the same as a sudo prompt in ubuntu it just doesnt remember your password/permission as long and it is a bit more verbose but I haven't found it to be annoying yet.

Well...I just have to put in my .02 cents. My beef with Vista is the sheer amount of power and memory it requires to run at optimal levels. Seriously, to run it with all the eye candy at a nice snappy speed requires a dual core anything and at least 2GB of memory. That is ridiculous. It's just a desktop OS for God's sake. We're not launching rockets to Mars with it. LOL.

Let's call Vista for what it is: forced obsolescence with no justifiable, quantifiable, or rational explanation for the added expense.

This sounds to me like FUD, I am running Vista on a machine with 1GB single core cpu with full eye candy and it runs sweet. Once I trim the services down a bit more I should be able to get base mem usage at around 300 instead of the 350+ it runs at now. Sure it's not as lean as linux but it's not the total dog some people make it out to be either. Try it before you knock it please mate.

darrenm

February 18th, 2007, 09:23 AM

http://www.newegg.com/ProductSort/SubCategory.asp?SubCategory=368&name=Operating-Systems
Isn't Vista 100 dollars and Ultimate is 200?

The only one in there thats close to 880 is 600, and thats a 3 pack dvd oem...

Sorry yes, its $780

The stand-alone version of Vista Ultimate retails for €600, or $780 here in Ireland. Amazon.com is selling this $780 version to Americans for $380. Or, to put it another way, Europeans are subsidising Americans by $400 on every copy they buy.

Also don't mistake oem copies for retail copies.

Lord de le Warr

February 18th, 2007, 10:53 AM

vista also has Office 2007, and thats also pretty cool.

Sunnz

February 18th, 2007, 11:16 AM

You'll be able to get Office 2008 on a Mac. :p

sloggerkhan

February 18th, 2007, 11:25 AM

I've never used an OS that hasn't crashed on me at least once. The difference between linux and the others is that when Linux has crashed, I've known or figured out why, and it's been my fault 100%. With windows and mac, there are times it's just crashed, died, become unusably slow, or otherwise failed, and I've had no clue why and ability to fix it.

PartisanEntity

February 18th, 2007, 11:32 AM

Anyone that actually knows about the philosophy of Open Source, would realise that it's not about the price tag, it's about the community, the shared knowledge. I'm sorry, but just because something is free, it does NOT mean that it is beyond criticism; if that was the case, then why does anyone bother mentioning bugs? Bug tracking is a very good type of criticism.

Remember people, just because Ubuntu is Free, it does not mean we cannot point out its flaws, or compare it to proprietary OSs.

I am in full agreement with you, and I find it very strange that some users think Linux and Ubuntu are beyond criticism. Criticism is what allows books, operating systems, theories, works of art, recipes, cars etc.. to be improved.

Do we all really want to use tools (some of us in order to earn our daily bread and butter) that we cannot critique and hold both positive and negative opinions about?

Rodneyck

February 18th, 2007, 12:26 PM

With windows and mac, there are times it's just crashed, died, become unusably slow, or otherwise failed, and I've had no clue why and ability to fix it.

For windows, the slow part over time is due to the registry. After about 6 months of use, it fills up (especially if you add more programs to the system) which takes longer for the system to scan each time something starts, thus slowing it down. I am so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.

Apple, I have no idea why their system is slow, it just is out of the box. I assume because of all the eye candy? It was the main reason I never purchased one, that and price.

flyinsquirrel992

February 18th, 2007, 01:04 PM

even at twice isn't twice of 100, 200, and twice of 200, 400? That's still half as much as 800. Can Newegg.com send to international countries like you said?

Frak

February 18th, 2007, 01:39 PM

For windows, the slow part over time is due to the registry. After about 6 months of use, it fills up (especially if you add more programs to the system) which takes longer for the system to scan each time something starts, thus slowing it down. I am so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore.

CCleaner (http://www.ccleaner.com/)

Malac

February 18th, 2007, 02:10 PM

CCleaner (http://www.ccleaner.com/)
Look what it recommends for my Linux system. Installing a Windows program.
25614
Thank you Frak, I haven't laughed so much in a while.

darrenm

February 18th, 2007, 02:51 PM

Again, beware the differences between OEM and retail versions. Retail is where you can actually buy a copy from a shop and its supported by Microsoft. OEM is where just a CD and serial gets supplied to a PC builder with no support.

Vista ultimate retail should be around $400 in the states as its £400 over here and Europe pays twice as much for Vista.

atarileaf

February 18th, 2007, 07:39 PM

PrinceArithon

February 19th, 2007, 02:29 AM

I don't think Vista Ultimate will be so cheap here in the US. I think it will be more expensive actually....

colonelk

February 19th, 2007, 07:20 AM

Ah, sorry not complaining but certainly your enterprise doesn't place value on morality obviously. it's aright as long as _your_ computers work eh.

You can't sit there saying that Linux doesn't meet your needs when your needs are shaped by a company that has been controlling and manipulating the industry to the point that they were hauled in front of courts, convicted and _still_ continue to practice their own brand of business.

How is that right?

We're all selectively blind, but at least don't be blind when it comes to something as trivial as computer software.

Erm, why are you "venting" all over me? I'm not anti linux or ubuntu!! :confused:

I'm paid to provide a service that is the best fit for our business needs. Our business needs require decent mobility, Digital Certs based Wifi, and the ability to control software distribution and machine settings across the organization (to name but a few). I haven't seen a way to date of ubuntu being able to meet these needs.

So what am I supposed to do? Buy a working solution from an evil empire and keep our organization in business, or learn to code from scratch which will take months or years and write an open source solution whilst watching our organization struggle in a competitive marketplace (which will have probably led me to lose my job?? )

mmmmm tough choice that :lolflag:

To some Ubuntu is perfectly capable of meeting their needs. For our organization it is not....YET....and its why I keep my eye on these forums and other IT publications for the day it WILL meet our needs. Then I'd have no problem disposing of [insert evil empires products here] if the Linux alternative was better and more cost effective.

You may be a linux advocate and for that i applaud you, but don't start the moral highground approach against those that have no choice.....

sloggerkhan

February 19th, 2007, 03:28 PM

I've never had a slowdown issue on a mac. I've just made it crash.

jengerer

February 20th, 2007, 08:45 PM

Microsoft is a bunch of corporate morons who can't come up with their own ideas so they mooch of others and steal source code (fact).

They tried to shove so much stuff onto one Operating System that there are so many bugs. A few big ones are the Blue Screen of Death, and the Send, Don't Send error. Of course, there may be errors in Ubuntu and others distributions of Linux as well, but most are minor and can be fixed easily.

I've used W98 a while ago and advanced to XP as the years went by. Then I downloaded a Vista demo to try it out, and they've copied even more stuff.

Ubuntu is more innovative than Vista. It has fewer system requirements than Vista. And God help us from Vista's amazing security (sarcasm?) Every damn program you run, you have to confirm whether you run it or it's some third party entity. I wouldn't be surprised if the next MS OS runs like so:

> Run Notepad.exe
> Confirm the run of the confirmation window to run the confirmation window to run Notepad.exe? y/n: y
> Confirm the run of the confirmation window to confirm the run of Notepad.exe? y/n: y
> Confirm the run of Notepad.exe? y/n: y
> And then, notepad opens.

Jphenow

February 20th, 2007, 09:25 PM

True that son ^^

Linux is the best thing ever, mainly because it doesn't lock you down into a seat, anything you need can be found, and free! I don't see why this thread was started asking how it could compete, features and possibilities are far greater in ubuntu, and along with that it's free, no one would expect such a great operating system, which is free, could top every $400 OS, mainly because it gives the community the opportunity to contribute, change, add-on, and give their own ideas for change to make it truely the best. The only way M$ can survive much longer is because they're thrown into almost any packaged computer on the market and 85% of the people who are banging their head against the monitor don't know there's an alternative, a free one that offers freedom, at that.

keith11

February 21st, 2007, 03:08 AM

I guess this thread is about Ubuntu vs Vista and that's the impression one gets while reading the posts in the beginning of this thread. I am very glad such kind of a discussion or a direct comparison can take place on ubuntuforums.org. That, in my opinion is a really admirable approach and an adoption of a perspective which provides a platform for an objective/not objective scrutiny of both the OS's.

I have been using linux, not continuously though, since 2001. If I remember correctly I experimented with linux through the installation of redhat 6. I couldn't use it because it was not able to detect even the monitor of a desktop. Since 2001, I occasionally installed several flavors of linux, except suse and always had a dual boot system. Most of the times I ended up wiping out linux becuase of reinstallation of windows and frankly speaking, for all the needs I had, I could do without linux completely. I am pursuing double masters programs and it doesn't allow a person to spend too much time figuring out things, for example, things in linux. So whenever I install linux I make sure I have enough time on hand. I am very pleased with ubuntu and my post is not for bashing windows or ubuntu, but to truly bring out what really needs to be done by linux distros in general if they want to take away the desktop market from windows.

One of my graduate degrees is an MBA and I have learned in marketing that it's not just enough to have a good product, but you have to convince your target market about it. Honestly, for ubuntu, or any linux distro, I don't see it happening when they are projected as desktops. I read a post on this thread which said that people who are comfortable with windows and who are not high-level users should not bother about using linux. That statement, in itself is certainly not an encouraging one as far projecting ubuntu as a desktop OS is concerned. All of us(including the newbies in this forums who may be advanced users in windows) know what a desktop OS should have to prefectly qualify as a desktop system, and not just qualify, but to be the best. Yes, there are many cons of windows and it continues even today, with vista, but does anyone using windows have to spend 2,3 or even 6 months trying to make that one hardware work properly, for example a webcam? It is understandable that both the OS's are different, but when a comparison is made, it really has to go right to the roots; ease of use and features. I am sure, on any linux forums we all will see many people who just give up making a hardware work in linux. If we had to answer with complete honesty, does a situation like that sustain itself for long for windows? This, in part is because of the monopolistic modus operandi of microsoft, but not completely owing to that. As far as the people I know are concerned, they would switch to linux if it just worked without spending months and months on making something work and half of the times being unsuccessful even after that amount of enthusiasm and effort. I hope developers of ubuntu are reading this whole thread, so that they can really touch the nerve of their target market and know what matters the most to the end users.

I have really loved ubuntu and I keep on asking my friends to try it or switch to it as I am doing it myself, but when I read comments like ubuntu is way better than vista, I question it because I keep wondering if it is better technically (which may not always be the strongest element to project it as the best desktop system) or "it-just-works" wise. If one has to switch to another operating system, it is not that difficult to understand that the new system just has to work. If the new system leaves some of your hardware, on old as well as new machines (which is the case with xp 64 bit too and hence it is not saying one OS is better than the other) unusable, why should one switch to it from an already nicely working one?! Most of the people use windows extensively for gaming and office work. Some people, including me, can't get to play online media in ubuntu (not that I have not tried to make it work, being the persistent person I am), can't use graphical enhancements like beryl or compiz, have to stay without a webcam, a tablet and many such hardware so how can an OS be seriously seen as a complete replacement of windows or mac? If I were a comp. sci. major, I would have seriously done something about it in the sense of building drivers which would just work on any machine (this might sound like a fantasy, but well, that should be the goal).

I am sure most of the people will understand where I am coming from, even the members with bean counts more than 4000.:) I really wish ubuntu, or any other distro of linux truly can compete with the aspects of a corrently dominant OS to be the best desktop linux OS. If that happens, I don't see ANY reason why people will hold themselves back from switching from windows to linux. Afterall, who doesn't want a better OS and which also JUST WORKS? I hope most of the issues are addressed in Feisty.

tommcd

February 21st, 2007, 06:50 AM

Linux does not try to copy windows. Linux has it's own way of doing things. Yes, there is a learning curve to usung linux, no question. There are distros like Linspire and Xandros which are said to be more noob friendly that Ubuntu. Then there are "hardcore" distros like Gentoo and Slackware.
Hardware manufacturers must make drivers for Windows if they want to sell their wares. They can ignore linux if they want. Many are also paranoid about the open source nature of linux drivers and loosing their trade secrets to competitors.

ukripper

February 21st, 2007, 07:27 AM

Frak

February 21st, 2007, 08:46 AM

Hardware manufacturers now need to rethink on the drivers they provide to the market as there are growing number of linux users day by day and I am in the hope of the day when my dream comes true - Linux ruling the roost.
I try to stay away from Windows as much as I can, thats why I have over $100 worth of Linspire software, and Xandros Networks, Versora, User Guide, and of course Desktop Home and Desktop Premium. I enjoy how easy it was to get $10 licenses for any computer I build, which Linspire and Xandros are the only versions of Linux anyone of my students actually kept, so for that reason, I'll pay the $10 per.

EDIT
I build computers for needy students, so they don't have an excuse of why they didn't turn in their homework, and I just don't believe in the pay up to upgrade (hardware), pay up to upgrade (software), and by that I mean forced like how Vista is. It's just unethical...

Rodneyck

February 21st, 2007, 11:24 AM

Hardware manufacturers now need to rethink on the drivers they provide to the market as there are growing number of linux users day by day and I am in the hope of the day when my dream comes true - Linux ruling the roost.

Microsoft is making this very hard for vendors to cross over, especially as Ballmer recently came out swinging against Linux, again..

Alongside the renewed threat over intellectual property, Ballmer was also bullish over winning large corporate accounts against Linux vendors. "We have done very well versus Linux on the desktop and on the server, and I am hopeful that we will build share, particularly in web servers and high-performance clusters, from Linux in the next year," he told analysts.

Full story...
http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,39285992,00.htm

FLPCGuy

February 21st, 2007, 07:10 PM

I try to stay away from Windows as much as I can, thats why I have over $100 worth of Linspire software, and Xandros Networks, Versora, User Guide, and of course Desktop Home and Desktop Premium. I enjoy how easy it was to get $10 licenses for any computer I build, which Linspire and Xandros are the only versions of Linux anyone of my students actually kept, so for that reason, I'll pay the $10 per.

EDIT
I build computers for needy students, so they don't have an excuse of why they didn't turn in their homework, and I just don't believe in the pay up to upgrade (hardware), pay up to upgrade (software), and by that I mean forced like how Vista is. It's just unethical...
Linux is certainly more appropriate for education than Windows today, now that Bill is out of the loop and Balmer no longer gives 90% discounts. I've been in your position (School District Network Admin) and gave away hundreds of old PC's and MACs that weren't worth the labor cost to maintain. We replaced them with HP ePC's that came with 17" monitor, Win2k, and OfcPro (with Exchange client) for under $450 in lots over 1,000 (years ago). Windows was free and OfcPro $3.50 a seat.

I was never able to start a PC program for needy kids because many couldn't even afford dial-up access back in my day. That's why I think the One Laptop Per Child project is a great idea (with built-in peer wireless networking) but may be more difficult to implement than many expect. It is all about connectivity.

I haven't even solved the connectivity issue myself. BellSouth a.k.a. SBC AT&T is a lousy provider that hasn't even lived up to the promise they made the FCC to allow the takeover, namely that they would reduce the cost of Internet access (for 18 months). They've only reduced the voltage on their lines, significantly changing downloads on a DSL connection from 153k/sec to 27k/sec. but still charge almost $30 a month. I support DSL users all over my area and this is a widespread, purposeful, and permanent cutback. They also formally announced they weren't going to string fiber anymore (abandoning a promise to Congress 10 years ago to build a nationwide fiber network in exchange for a big rate increase).

I fight back by avoiding them. I have found the cheapest dial-up access anywhere and have used it for years. They are nationwide (US), even Oklahoma (I used to live in West Texas so I know what 'middle of nowhere' looks like). Anyway, check out 550access.com and get a list of your local access numbers before you sign up. You might also fill in the referred by block with STRAPANE for the first signup. After that, put in your own or another student's userid and they might get a free month (if they still have that offer). The backbone is provided by Level3, so it is as good as anyone's. I hope this helps some who would otherwise not be able to afford to get connected.

I'd like to hear about any other cheap Internet access deals, dial-up or DSL. BTW, I tried to put this info on your forum but never got the confirmation email, then in a private email (blocked). Feel free to ask forum admins to dump this post after you've seen it.

Bottom line, I don't think the direction of Vista is conducive to the goals of public PC education, namely widespread, inexpensive, useful, user controlled [open source?] personal computing. Linux on a pen drive may be the way to go.

If we were willing to let someone else tell us how we use computers, we would have stayed on dumb terminals. Bill Gates freed me from IBM.

Linux-Power to the PC!

Frak

February 21st, 2007, 07:28 PM

Linux is certainly more appropriate for education than Windows today, now that Bill is out of the loop and Balmer no longer gives 90% discounts. I've been in your position (School District Network Admin) and gave away hundreds of old PC's and MACs that weren't worth the labor cost to maintain. We replaced them with HP ePC's that came with 17" monitor, Win2k, and OfcPro (with Exchange client) for under $450 in lots over 1,000 (years ago). Windows was free and OfcPro $3.50 a seat.

I was never able to start a PC program for needy kids because many couldn't even afford dial-up access back in my day. That's why I think the One Laptop Per Child project is a great idea (with built-in peer wireless networking) but may be more difficult to implement than many expect. It is all about connectivity.

I haven't even solved the connectivity issue myself. BellSouth a.k.a. SBC AT&T is a lousy provider that hasn't even lived up to the promise they made the FCC to allow the takeover, namely that they would reduce the cost of Internet access (for 18 months). They've only reduced the voltage on their lines, significantly changing downloads on a DSL connection from 153k/sec to 27k/sec. but still charge almost $30 a month. I support DSL users all over my area and this is a widespread, purposeful, and permanent cutback. They also formally announced they weren't going to string fiber anymore (abandoning a promise to Congress 10 years ago to build a nationwide fiber network in exchange for a big rate increase).

I fight back by avoiding them. I have found the cheapest dial-up access anywhere and have used it for years. They are nationwide (US), even Oklahoma (I used to live in West Texas so I know what 'middle of nowhere' looks like). Anyway, check out 550access.com and get a list of your local access numbers before you sign up. You might also fill in the referred by block with STRAPANE for the first signup. After that, put in your own or another student's userid and they might get a free month (if they still have that offer). The backbone is provided by Level3, so it is as good as anyone's. I hope this helps some who would otherwise not be able to afford to get connected.

I'd like to hear about any other cheap Internet access deals, dial-up or DSL. BTW, I tried to put this info on your forum but never got the confirmation email, then in a private email (blocked). Feel free to ask forum admins to dump this post after you've seen it.

Bottom line, I don't think the direction of Vista is conducive to the goals of public PC education, namely widespread, inexpensive, useful, user controlled [open source?] personal computing. Linux on a pen drive may be the way to go.

If we were willing to let someone else tell us how we use computers, we would have stayed on dumb terminals. Bill Gates freed me from IBM.

Linux-Power to the PC!
If you mean my forum, please excuse that, I've taken it down due to REALLY bad spamming, so now only known spammers can join (I have a plan)

But anyway, AT&T, our local one, said they will provide DSL to any student for $5, but the equipment still had to be bought. Thanks to Donations, though, we have enough to buy the equipment for them, or at least most of the cost, making it much easier on the students.

Thank Wal-Mart for Donation buckets :P

FLPCGuy

February 22nd, 2007, 02:30 PM

BTW that PC I rebuilt for a friend is finished. I couldn't even get him to try Linux. But I was able to convince him to avoid Vista for now. He only wants what he knows, XP. He's only dealing with me because I'll match Dell & Wal-Mart prices but make nothing if I include XP (the most expensive single component by far).

I see a small opening here if someone could convince manufacturers to offer Linux on their desktops for less than comparably configured Vista PC's or better still, start with Linux in the base (advertised) price and configuration. Let users click to add Vista and all the extras needed to run it. If buyers are willing to pay more for Vista, fine. Just don't force it upon everyone.

This Linux strategy would let the vendors advertise lower priced PC's (theoretically selling more of both) than those who offer only Windows. This still may not be enough to overcome the profit advantage of adding perceived value (retail Vista) at the huge volume discounts Dell & HP get.

Smaller manufacturers who pay a penalty (vs. Dell & HP) to offer Windoze should be the first to offer Linux rather than no OS, so they can compete on price and provide a ready to use PC. Smaller Asian manufacturers are ideal candidates to get the ball rolling offering Linux pre-installed and breaking free from paying Microsoft much of their profit.

But much more profit is made on the more expensive PC's needed to run Vista. That's further incentive to offer only Vista and promote more premium configurations to get all the features. The last thing vendors want you to know is that Linux has a transparent desktop that runs on almost any new PC.

Only substantial market share and user familiarity will allow Linux to displace Windows and then only as long as it costs significantly less. I still cannot imagine users paying $100 for RedHat or SuSe Linux desktop OS anytime soon unless it includes some must-have feature Windows cannot or will not offer. At this point, Linux should be given away to build market share and credibility as a worthy Windoze alternative.

greywolf79

February 22nd, 2007, 06:41 PM

I know this topic is probably considered by many to be dead... I just saw it though and wanted to toss my 2 cents in.

Why would any of us want to not switch to an os that "cannot be hacked" (according to bill gates)... I mean, I do not know about you all but I want a safer and more powerful os....

Dam... Linux is the more secure and powerful os... alwell, guess them ms boys better be going back to that old drawing board and figuring out what people really want.

2 hints too ms
- NOT OVER PRICED USELESS SOFTWARE!!!
- The right to use the software of our choice on the systems we buy and do as we wish (there really are not that many out there trying to sell items from copyright infringement, it is a small portion of the people that do that)

I for one will not switch to windows vista and will be outfitting the 6 or so pcs in my home network with Ubuntu linux and will be slowly converting work computers (some 80+ pcs under me as sys admin in a Library) over to Ubuntu as soon as is possible (some red tape since it is a college library)...

Hope everyone reads about windows vista before switching.

linux_kid

February 22nd, 2007, 06:46 PM

The Ribbon and the Glassy GUI are quite nice, I'll admit that, but my parents use their computer quite a lot and have the mentality that when IE is open, they are running only IE, not Windows, and that Windows is only a file browser and photo viewer.
They also cannot tell a difference between OOo and Wordperfect.

Simply changing the GUI is an idea worthy of /dev/null

PrairieShaman

February 22nd, 2007, 08:38 PM

In my opinion i think that Vista is actually going to do more damage to the microsofts business than it is going to do good.. They are going to lose many previous customers to open source, and secure OS's like Ubuntu.

Zaen

February 22nd, 2007, 09:24 PM

As a beta tester of vista, all I can say is YUCK! Half of my old games wouldn't run under vista, some didn't have sound, and many required vista-specific patches. I went back to 2000 for the few games I do play (and I don't play them all that often).

That being said, I think most gamers won't consider anything but for their newest shiny PC game, simply because of the complexity of getting games to work under linux.

I personally am very pro-linux, and hope to see it grow even more in the future.
Just my 2 cents

haley1

February 22nd, 2007, 11:21 PM

I wish I'd bought a new computer before vista came out, I waited too long and now I'm stuck with it till my next day off when I have time to load ubuntu. :(

tweakedenigma

February 22nd, 2007, 11:23 PM

Waiting might have been a good thing there are some really good prices on XP machines right now :)

brenoelvio

February 22nd, 2007, 11:32 PM

If we use a OS because the interface, why didn't MAC OS won? As I can see, Vista is just coping the Mac system. I am still using Win XP on my notebook, because some programs (on my work) only runs in windows, but I am verry please to use Linux Ubuntu, they did a great job, at home I only use Ubuntu. In this forum you can find every thing you need to run and open every file that win opens. People forget that they have to learn how to operate windows, and linux is just about the same.

Patrick K

February 23rd, 2007, 12:36 AM

I got POed at M$ years ago. I never even bothered with XP, or for that matter 98SE or 95. I ran 3.1 until 1998. I have 98FE and it works fine for me. In fact, W98 was the last thing I bought from M$. And I'm still running that first install, I've never had to reinstalled. Fortunately, W98 isn't tied to the hardware since this is the 3rd processor, 2nd MoBo, and 3rd or 4th set of harddrives.

I think the biggest impact on Linux from Vista is DRM. This could have a very substantial effect on pricing and usability of new graphic and sound cards. With the requirement for encrypting the entire signal chain and for very tightly, buttoned up, drivers that check for HD content the entire component industry could become, at least, partially closed to Linux. It could, also, be the Achilles heel of M$. If they start impacting the usability of Vista user's computers, they will have a very POed bunch of customers.

Another issue is Vista "calling home" on a regular basis. They say they are not collecting personal data, but how could anyone be sure of this. Take Bill Gate's word for it?

However, most users will eventually switch to Vista, I suppose. Any disto of Linux requires much more computer knowhow than the average Windows possesses or wants to possess. Most are not interested in learning what is needed to get a Linux box configured and running smoothly. Hell, I'm pretty computer savvy (I've had computers since 1982) and I'm still baffled at times with Ubuntu. While Ubuntu is very easy to get running (easier than my 98 box was in 1998), it still has a ways to go to make a substantial dent in the Windows market. Most Linux users want to mess with their machines, most Windows users don't.

3rdalbum

February 23rd, 2007, 01:19 AM

If we use a OS because the interface, why didn't MAC OS won?

Well, some people don't like the Mac OS interface. I don't - not enough places in the interface to put programs and other files, for a start! Also, there's no replacement for the control strip (except for the dashboard, but who needs modality like this?).

However, your comment did make me think of my reply to Windows users who don't like the command-line: "If you say that people won't use Linux because it relies on the command line, why didn't everyone use Mac OS during the time of Windows 3.1?"

tubasoldier

February 23rd, 2007, 01:49 AM

I have never understood why people think that MS will just dissapear one day. And I have never understood why people think that Linux will be the ONLY operating system. It won't happen, ever. The whole idea of world domination is rediculous. The morals behind open source software is freedom. Freedom to change, freedom to choose, freedom to buy, and freedom to sell. People will continue to choose windows because that is what they have always used. Many people are scared of the unknown. So insenuating that Linux will make MS dissapear or that Linux and open source software will evaporate because of a single operating system from MS is complete ignorance.

patreides

February 23rd, 2007, 01:51 AM

ed-j

February 23rd, 2007, 02:03 AM

Microsoft Windows Vista and Microsoft Office 2007 are on the horizon, including new fancy graphic user interfaces... is Ubuntu Linux likely to survive against such strong competition?

John

At last! A lovely simple question!

Please refer to this website http://www.nsa.gov/selinux ( courtesy of aysiu ). Sorry, it's not a link.

I'm sure you'll be as surprised as me!

hakimaki

February 23rd, 2007, 02:17 AM

With the advent of Vista hitting the market, I've been getting many a phone call asking me why does it suck so much and why does my computer run so slow etc etc etc.... Loyal windows users have been telling me how fed up they are with this new OS and that they are reverting back to XP or looking for alternatives such as linux and mac, which has led me to convert many to Ubuntu and other distros they saw fit to their uses and liking. I just felt like sharing the fact to all, and why I think Vista is the best thing to happen to the "alternative".

PrinceArithon

February 23rd, 2007, 02:21 AM

People have been bailing on Vista left and right for the past 10 months. Many people seen Vista last year and started switching to MAC, XP has led many people to Linux...but now more people are going over to Linux. This is the reason why you get people like Steve Ballmer doing all he can to discredit Linux.

Patrick K

February 23rd, 2007, 02:30 AM

If interested, here is a fascinating article about the real cost of Vista. A little bit technical, but very interesting. Wrote by Peter Guntmann, Auckland University (New Zealand).

http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

An excellent article. Well worth reading even if you only read the section: "Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support"

ed-j

February 23rd, 2007, 02:38 AM

An excellent article. Well worth reading even if you only read the section: "Elimination of Open-source Hardware Support"

I'll be back in half an hour and I'll have a quick look at that. Thanks to you both!

gradedcheese

February 23rd, 2007, 02:43 AM

I'm actually very excited about Vista. Here's why: although I've been using Linux for something like six years, Vista will be the first version of Windows that I'll truly have never used anywhere. I've used (and once ran) 2000 and I've used XP a little here and there, but I'll have absolutely zero Vista experience.

This is great because I'll finally have an excuse when someone asks me to "fix their PC". The reply will be "I'm sorry, I can't help you. I don't know Windows. I only know Linux", and it will finally be 100% (rather than about 50%) true. It's also nice to add "I'm sorry, I don't know how to clean up spyware and viruses, my OS doesn't have those" but that's a bit mean.

All that said, don't kid yourself too much. Very few people actively buy Windows, they will get it thrown in on their new PC or laptop, as they've always gotten previous versions. Inevitably, most home users will be thus 'upgraded' and then most people will be running Vista even though upgrade sales are slow. It's nice to see IT departments not getting too excited about it, but as soon as they EOL XP, they'll have little choice. Most business with IT departments still run 2000 as far as I've seen though.

cantormath

February 23rd, 2007, 02:46 AM

Patrick K

February 23rd, 2007, 03:02 AM

The section on "Increased Hardware Costs" is well worth reading, too.

gigaferz

February 23rd, 2007, 03:37 AM

Check this out!:

Top reasons to upgrade:

Enjoy the elegant, visually compelling Windows Aero desktop experience.
find documents,e-mail,photos and more in a snap with Instant Search
Organize,edit and share your favorite memories with family and friends using the new Photo Gallery
Customize your PC Desktop with a wide choice of fun and useful gadgetson your windows sidebar
Its safer
Help protect private information and remove spyware with windows defender(google zdnet for windows defender its pathetic)

As you can see anybody here in these forums will laugh at the reasond to get Vista,

However millions of people that do not have the knowledge will get it, even if they dont want it , why? It comes with a new PC.

I typed those reasons off a magazine

primski

February 23rd, 2007, 03:47 AM

..."I'm sorry, I don't know how to clean up spyware and viruses, my OS doesn't have those"...

hehe, i like that one, u mind if i use it from time to time ?

I use XP only for Pro evolution soccer 6, gotta get that running on ubuntu, and then i can ditch windoze forevah, muhahah :P

aysiu

February 23rd, 2007, 03:47 AM

Merged.

ed-j

February 23rd, 2007, 03:50 AM

The section on "Increased Hardware Costs" is well worth reading, too.

The section on CPU usage! And the 9:2 importance ratio of encryption to the amount of audio and video: This and the total lack of care for all personal data!

AlexC_

February 23rd, 2007, 03:53 AM

Yep! it sure is. Just before Vista was released a few of my friends were going:

"Oh, Sam (my friend) could you get me a copy of Vista please?! It looks really cool!"
... few days later ...
"Awww man Vista sucks, it's so slow and annoying"

I've been telling them all about Ubuntu/Linux and they now both have a Linux distro installed on their laptops (Ubuntu on one, SuSE on the other) - they both like them (apart from things like sound and wireless not working ... but I'll fix that)

One of them is still dual-booting with Vista, he was on it before trying to get a game to work. Oh. My. God. Is all I have to say. First of all, the Aero interface was flashing on and off randomly, some times you had transparent borders, next you didn't. Then, time to open up "My Computer" - I seriously can not believe how slow it is, I knew it was gonna be slow but wow, worse than I though.

Time to play the game, double click .exe. "Are you sure you want to do this?" ... Yes. "Windows needs to unblock this program, unblock or keep blocked?" ... Unblock. "Are you sure you want to do this?" ... Yes. At that stage it just locked up and had to do a full restart.

I'm actually very excited about Vista. Here's why: although I've been using Linux for something like six years, Vista will be the first version of Windows that I'll truly have never used anywhere. I've used (and once ran) 2000 and I've used XP a little here and there, but I'll have absolutely zero Vista experience.
Same here! It'll be my first Windows version (since like ... 95 I think) that I'll never use (on my own pc, hopefully anyone else's as well :P )

Patrick K

February 23rd, 2007, 03:53 AM

This thread sure grew fast. What did you merge into it, aysiu?

Anyway here is a quote from the above linked article:
As a user, there is simply no escape. Whether you use Windows Vista, Windows XP, Windows 95, Linux, FreeBSD, OS X, Solaris (on x86), or almost any other OS, Windows content protection will make your hardware more expensive, less reliable, more difficult to program for, more difficult to support, more vulnerable to hostile code, and with more compatibility problems. Because Windows dominates the market and device vendors are unlikely to design and manufacture two different versions of their products, non-Windows users will be paying for Windows Vista content-protection measures in products even if they never run Windows on them.

<edit> Here is the link since these threads have been merged:
http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html

aysiu

February 23rd, 2007, 03:57 AM

This thread sure grew fast. What did you merge into it, aysiu? Oh, a bunch of Linux v. Vista threads...

grogger13

February 23rd, 2007, 06:20 AM

daller

February 23rd, 2007, 07:23 AM

okay, first off linux isn't gonna be main stream for a long time, if ever. More than half the people i know have enough trouble with the most basic tasks that suggesting to them to use linux would be like telling a 2 year old he should stop using the tricycle becuase a bicyle performs better.

I have had to invest so much time into linux and reading and searching guides and i know people are not going to do that. It doesn't really matter how much linux has progressed becuase it is still so far off.

If you have followed the ubuntu development since it started, you would know that the development is going really fast!

My bet is that feisty+2 will be superior to Vista on every thinkable field!

Linux distros and apps are generally developing faster that it's Microsoft counterparts, the questions is just: "When will the 2 equations even?"

7h35ur930n

February 23rd, 2007, 08:05 AM

not even anything to disscuss.

Vista is for the general I know nothing home user (no offence meant)

I want my machine to look nice to show my friends how rich I am and how trendy I am.

Linux is more for the advanced computer user who knows what they want and .03 second delays to do anything is not it.....Linux does the job and doesnt give your information away while doing it. Microsoft know how to market their product thats it.

I got my ubuntu Laptop all up and running, I'm well happy :guitar:

xpod

February 23rd, 2007, 09:38 AM

I have had to invest so much time into linux and reading and searching guides and i know people are not going to do that. It doesn't really matter how much linux has progressed becuase it is still so far off.
Reply With Quote

:confused:
I thought if you wanted to learn ANYTHING new you had to read all sorts of guides and mabey ask a few questions........(except flat pack furniture possibly.....NEVER read them guides:) )

I`ve only had computers for 11 months and i had to do just as much reading (and asking) during my initial few Windows months as what i first did when i landed here.I never knew how to turn the bloody thing on to out start last March but i sure wanted to at least learn the basics.Especially for the safety of both our kids and the computers they`d soon be using themselves.
One thing led to another,Ubuntu was soon discovered and now me and all my kids install and use Ubu....mostly.All with much reading and asking i hasten to add.....(edit)not so much asking nowadays mind you

They have a choice of course but it`s Windows that is just sooooooo far off in this house that none of us really use the thing,but then none of us had all those years with the thing that many of you most likely did.......phew:wink:

Most folks i know with the Windows pc`s they`ve had for years dont even know the most basic of stuff, simply because they dont want to put that wee bit time in to learning some basics (it`s only hard when you dont know the answer eh).......My kids friends are seemingly up to all sorts on the internet that their parents know nothing about apparently simply because they barely know how to switch that pc on......mmmmmmmmmmmm:(

I know folks who have paid outrageous amounts in repair shops for silly things i now know where but the click or two of a button to repair or worse they just went out and bought expensive new pc`s once they had "used" the current one so much that it became unusable.

Even now that i can set their xp`s back up,set up all the relevant security and programs for them AND leave them with a dozen simple bookmarks to READ for keeping their pc running smoothly i still get the phone calls all the time although no where near as many i`m glad to say.

It`s not Linux that is sooo far off if you ask this computer noob but all the self-proclaimed windows experts we see who reckon having to do a bit of reading makes Linux somehow bad:-k

How did they learn to use Windows:confused:

Brunellus

February 23rd, 2007, 11:00 AM

If you have followed the ubuntu development since it started, you would know that the development is going really fast!

My bet is that feisty+2 will be superior to Vista on every thinkable field!

Linux distros and apps are generally developing faster that it's Microsoft counterparts, the questions is just: "When will the 2 equations even?"
Don't let your irrational exuberance get in the way of actual facts.

1) Linux is ready for the desktop today.

however

2) Unfortunately, many desktops are not ready for Linux. Users have hardware that depends on vendor-supplied, closed, binary-only drivers.

The main benefits Linux will have over Vista continue to be:

1) Total acquisition cost.

2) RADICALLY simplified legal compliance.

3) Free and Open development, with the security implied therein.

FLPCGuy

February 23rd, 2007, 03:29 PM

Catching up on my reading I ran across this evaluation of the worthless Vista firewall. http://blogs.zdnet.com/Berlind/?p=331&tag=nl.e6

It clearly shows a major difference between Linux and Windows. Windows must be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator, presumably 'the lazy American idiot'. Every dialog or wizard in Windows has always obscured the technology with undecipherable babble. They might as well just flash a standard message "Don't worry about this. It is too complicated for you to understand."

That's reason enough for any reasonably intelligent person to make the effort to switch to Linux.

p1r0

February 23rd, 2007, 04:25 PM

I've always wondered if one of the reasons linux is so secure wouldn't be that no one has yet decided to really exploit it's weaknesses and attack as bad as they do with MS OS's....

And I'm not agaist linux, I use and home and on the servers at work.

Brunellus

February 23rd, 2007, 05:06 PM

Yellowbelly

February 23rd, 2007, 05:28 PM

As a new user of linux, I'd like to say that Vista made me switch to Linux. I must say that Beryl is good marketing. I'll eventually get it but I'm not up to speed yet and waiting for more stable releases soon.

Supposedly vista has better memory management, that at idle the mem usage goes to cached using up more memory but it makes programs open faster, etc. Although it's a decent feature, NO OS should demand a gig of ram minimum, or at least YET. I've seen it run on 62 processes and this is a brand new computer at best buy. No computer needs to be running 62 processes, ever- especially a brand new one. It's security is a joke; even though linux is open source, I believe it to be much more secure since it asks you for a password whenever you think about making changes to the file system which is good. It won't let people that don't know what you're doing to mess up your computer. Lastly, I thought aero was going to be great but it's 3dness isn't any more intuitive than OS X's 2d system where all the windows are spread out. Even less so than the beryl cube since you can come out of games easily to different desktops (like having multiple monitors but not). It seems great although I've never played with it.

I'd rather switch to mac than use vista.

Hendrixski

February 23rd, 2007, 05:34 PM

More than half the people i know have enough trouble with the most basic tasks that suggesting to them to use linux would be like telling a 2 year old he should stop using the tricycle becuase a bicyle performs better.

I think that is a fantastic analogy! if we follow this analogy farther, when that 2 year old grows up to be a 10 year old he would be ashamed to be seen using a tricycle. What if when Linux does get much wider adoption (if the number of governments switching to it is any indication) then people will be ashamed to use Windows??

linux_kid

February 23rd, 2007, 05:36 PM

When we were children, we admired the pretty pictures. Well, we don't stay kids forever, and me must someday wake up and smell the command line.

Paul133

February 23rd, 2007, 06:32 PM

Alas, I will be getting a new computer soon, most likely a Dell Inspiron 1501, which comes with, you guessed it, *Windows Vista Premium*. Of course, I'll put Ubuntu (either Dapper or Edgy) on it straightaway as a dual-boot. So, I'll let you know how it goes. Now, I just hope Ubuntu supports my hardware: AMD Turion64 X2 (dual core, 64 bit processor) and integrated ATI Radeon Xpress1150. I know I can run Aero, but Beryl?

Trebuchet

February 23rd, 2007, 08:13 PM

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!So you're both a software thief and wouldn't count anyway since you weren't a legit user. Yeah, Microsoft should really be upset when non-paying customers switch to another OS. That'll really damage their bottom line. :rolleyes:

blastus

February 23rd, 2007, 10:50 PM

I've installed Vista RC2 and the release. It just doesn't work.

When I only had 1GB of RAM it ran out of memory while trying to play a DVD movie and Windows Media Player was the ONLY application I started. Now with 2GB of RAM it doesn't run out of memory, but it doesn't properly play movies either. I guess my ripped DVDs confuse Vista's WMP. :popcorn:

Oh and there's no sound. I have a Sound Blaster Audigy card and would have thought that by now Windows would include basic drivers for it but I guess not. Ubuntu recognizes my sound card right out of the box. :)

It is also incredibly difficult for me to install Vista because the default resolution it assumes is unusable with my video card and LCD monitor. The screen blanks out all the time and is unstable because there is a timing issue. I have to painstakingly try to navigate through all the post install screens with an unstable display and lower the resolution to get a proper screen. In Ubuntu I use a custom ModeLine and have no problems.

chestnut1969

February 24th, 2007, 01:52 AM

ok,

runs on average 644Mb ram (I currently have Excel, IE 7 & Acrobat open)
PAINFUL to install, took 3 days to get a functional system
Regular revisit to the 'blue screen of death', at leat 2-3 times a session
Driver nightmare, with SB audigy not happy at all
CPU hogging processes
Aero, well, personally I think Compiz or Beryl leave it for dead
Apart from that, going well!

Cannot wait until the latest Fiesty pre-release finishes downloading on my system

Vista feels at present like a very badly executed SLED 10 crossed with OSx wrapper to WinXP (which by the way is much more of a pleasure to use)

Oh well, it looks like I've paid to be a Vista beta-tester ;)

PhilJ

February 24th, 2007, 12:52 PM

FLPCGuy

February 24th, 2007, 02:08 PM

When we were children, we admired the pretty pictures. Well, we don't stay kids forever, and me must someday wake up and smell the command line.
That sounds familiar.

Sadly, a lot of Windows users never grow up.

aysiu

February 24th, 2007, 02:11 PM

FLPCGuy

February 24th, 2007, 02:39 PM

Well, frankly, pretty pictures can be good sometimes. I don't think we should close ourselves off to any medium.

I like reading books (ones without pictures), but I also like reading comic books. I also like watching movies and listening to music... or books on tape.

We, as human beings, are multi-faceted and able to think and operate in different modes. Unless we are physically handicapped in some way, we do not only speak without gesturing sometimes or only gesture without speaking sometimes. Unless we're mentally deranged, we don't only use screwdrivers and never use a hammer or only use a hammer and never a screwdriver.

A pretty interface is a good thing. A usable interface is a good thing. A terminal is also a good thing.

Give us varied tools and let the user decide what to use and when.
I think for most of us the terminal is symbolic of the real difference between most Windows users and most Linux users. I don't know anyone (except Dr. Al, an Assembly guru I used to work with) who prefers the terminal to a GUI desktop. But most Linux users are not totally freaked if they must use the terminal once in awhile.

Most drivers would never consider changing the engine in their vehicle. Linux users are generally those willing to look under the hood or are dissatisfied with some aspect of Windows. For now Linux users are more likely to fit the common Windows description "Power User".

I guess the real question is whether this is only because Linux doesn't come pre-installed or because like Apple users, we want more from our computers than Windows offers.

aysiu

February 24th, 2007, 02:41 PM

I guess the real question is whether this is only because Linux doesn't come pre-installed or because like Apple users, we want more from our computers than Windows offers. Probably the lack of preinstallation, since most Mac users I know do not link to tinker under the hood (some do, but not most).

FLPCGuy

February 24th, 2007, 02:57 PM

Probably the lack of preinstallation, since most Mac users I know do not link to tinker under the hood (some do, but not most).
Perhaps a significant portion of Linux and Mac users are avoiding things about Windows they don't want (viruses, spyware, sluggish performance, the need to constantly run and update a host of 3rd party apps that minimize these defects), or just don't want to support the predatory, anti-competitive, anti-consumer behavior of M$.

Deathshrimp316

February 25th, 2007, 04:27 AM

I'll restate in this thread why I switched over to Ubuntu. Windows in only evolutionary, not revolutionary. I started and though ooh this looks pretty but then I thought 'Microsoft spent 5 years and billions of dollars on this and this is what they come up with?'. After that bombshell I thought I'd like to be part of somethign that acutally does progess and doesnt wait 12 months to fix a bug because they just want to include it in the next service pack, along with their next helping of the rather annoying WGA.

So from my experience, Vista put a user off Windows.

Craftycorner

February 25th, 2007, 11:12 AM

the only reason there is windows xp home on half of my hard drive (other is kubuntu dapper) is nero runs well on windows. if i can get nero 6 running on linux w out having to relicence, bye bye windows! :KS

keith11

February 26th, 2007, 05:12 AM

Very reasonable points made in this article about readiness/not readiness of linux for the consumer at large.

http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/feb2007/tc20070226_415604.htm?chan=technology_technology+i ndex+page_today%27s+top+stories

BoyOfDestiny

February 26th, 2007, 09:34 AM

So you're both a software thief and wouldn't count anyway since you weren't a legit user. Yeah, Microsoft should really be upset when non-paying customers switch to another OS. That'll really damage their bottom line. :rolleyes:

Well depends who you ask.

Gates shed some light on his own hard-nosed business philosophy. "Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, but people don't pay for the software," he said. "Someday they will, though. As long as they are going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade."

http://news.com.com/2100-1023-212942.html

Bill Gates said this about 9~ years ago. Maybe his opinion on the matter has changed since then... But I think MS is trying the "some day they will [pay]" at this point "next decade" is now etc...

ukripper

February 26th, 2007, 12:33 PM

I work in IT department in development environment and people there are so anti linux, one of M$ techie goes ' Linux is cheaper then cheap because it is free and free things are supposed to be crap , moreover, linux is just used for hacking.' lol..well I smiled and thought to myself You can find dumb lot in your own backyard, why should we go far to find them.:lolflag:

Trebuchet

February 26th, 2007, 09:14 PM

Well depends who you ask.No it doesn't. He's still stealing software; and his switching to Ubuntu out of phony outrage won't mean anything to Microsoft's bottom line because he wasn't contributing anything to their bottom line in the first place. He's a thief.

Bill Gates said this about 9~ years ago. Maybe his opinion on the matter has changed since then... But I think MS is trying the "some day they will [pay]" at this point "next decade" is now etc...What's wrong with that? The Chinese steal anything that isn't nailed down: music, software, operating systems, proprietary hardware, whatever. There's is nothing at all morally wrong with the developers of those products wanting to reclaim some of their losses. If Gates can make the Chinese stop stealing Windows by slapping product verification on it, more power to him. If China wants to be respected, then they have to show respect in return.

How would people here feel if the Chinese took Ubuntu, slapped a new name and boot screen on it (Maybe "Maobuntu") and started selling it for a hefty profit in the US? Think the Ubuntu Foundation might take issue with that?

steven8

February 26th, 2007, 11:52 PM

How would people here feel if the Chinese took Ubuntu, slapped a new name and boot screen on it (Maybe "Maobuntu") and started selling it for a hefty profit in the US? Think the Ubuntu Foundation might take issue with that?

I thought that was legal.

blastus

February 27th, 2007, 12:05 AM

I think Vista will open the door for a few more linux users. It's just becoming too expensive to run Microsoft software. I don't know anyone that uses *genuine* Microsoft software because it costs so damn much. The unfortunate thing is that many would rather continue using software they didn't pay for than use Linux and open source--they're just lazy.

No it doesn't. He's still stealing software; and his switching to Ubuntu out of phony outrage won't mean anything to Microsoft's bottom line because he wasn't contributing anything to their bottom line in the first place. He's a thief.

There is a blatantly obvious distinction between someone who walks into a store and walks out with a piece of software without paying for it and someone who copies a piece of software from a friend or someone and uses that software. I'm not saying anything about either, but these arguments that equate using copied software to theft are non-sequitur.

Trebuchet

February 27th, 2007, 08:34 AM

I think Vista will open the door for a few more linux users. It's just becoming too expensive to run Microsoft software. I don't know anyone that uses *genuine* Microsoft software because it costs so damn much. The unfortunate thing is that many would rather continue using software they didn't pay for than use Linux and open source--they're just lazy.Since about 90% of the world's computer users are using Microsoft products, you're obviously traveling in a very restricted circle. You should get out more.

There is a blatantly obvious distinction between someone who walks into a store and walks out with a piece of software without paying for it and someone who copies a piece of software from a friend or someone and uses that software. I'm not saying anything about either, but these arguments that equate using copied software to theft are non-sequitur.No, it's as blatant a case of rationalization as I've seen in a long time. Both cases feature theft; the only difference is that the second case involved two thieves. If Party A wants to give his copy of copywritten software to Party B, then he's first obligated to remove said software from his own system.

It's stealing, plain and simple. Attempts to pretend it's not are what is non sequitur.

Trebuchet

February 27th, 2007, 08:36 AM

I thought that was legal.No, it's not. Red Hat and SuSe are not charging for their versions of Linux. They are charging for the tech support that goes along with their versions of Linux.

megamania

February 27th, 2007, 08:56 AM

BoyOfDestiny

February 27th, 2007, 09:20 AM

No it doesn't. He's still stealing software; and his switching to Ubuntu out of phony outrage won't mean anything to Microsoft's bottom line because he wasn't contributing anything to their bottom line in the first place. He's a thief.

What's wrong with that? The Chinese steal anything that isn't nailed down: music, software, operating systems, proprietary hardware, whatever. There's is nothing at all morally wrong with the developers of those products wanting to reclaim some of their losses. If Gates can make the Chinese stop stealing Windows by slapping product verification on it, more power to him. If China wants to be respected, then they have to show respect in return.

How would people here feel if the Chinese took Ubuntu, slapped a new name and boot screen on it (Maybe "Maobuntu") and started selling it for a hefty profit in the US? Think the Ubuntu Foundation might take issue with that?

Well, the point was that Gates was (and is) hoping he'd (or she'd) become a paying customer after using Windows for so long (legit or not...) not switch to something else.
It is in this sense they want (wanted?) more users, so they can be made to pay up. Nothing wrong with it, but it means "piracy" has something to do with their bottom line. Time to "milk" the existing user base, by hook or by crook.

If people want Windows they should pay for it (believe it or not I even still have my win 3.0/3.1 disks, 95, 98(se), a horrible ME disc, and a couple of retail XPs -- though 3.1/98/XP now happily live in rarely used VMs)

I agree that MS should keep doing what it's been doing. I'm against piracy of MS' software (although for a different reason than they are). I do find their methods annoying to legitimate customers (it drove me away long before longhorn/vista came to market), but again I'm fine with that as it may push people toward alternative and open platforms... Or at least be aware of them.

As for the comment on Maolinux, if they follow the letter and spirit of the GPL and people want to buy something they can get for free... There is nothing stopping them from trying to rebrand Ubuntu and sell it. Good luck with that though...

BoyOfDestiny

February 27th, 2007, 09:24 AM

No, it's not. Red Hat and SuSe are not charging for their versions of Linux. They are charging for the tech support that goes along with their versions of Linux.

It is perfectly legal to sell Free software.

Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.
The word “free” has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of “free software”, we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of “free speech”, not “free beer”.) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html

Straight from the horse's mouth.

tagra123

February 27th, 2007, 09:51 AM

The last few computer friends and family have handed over to me to to clean up have had Ubuntu installed as a backup operating system. I ask them if they mind having a backup OS, just in case windows stops again. I also introduce them to firefox, thunderbird, and openoffice for windows since these are the tools that will be common to both operating systems.

All have been receptive so far and some actually are using it more than I though they would.

The last PC worked on was a 6 month old HP that had no working virus scanner and no anti-malware software installed. It was a real chore getting the restore disks off the hard drive. Not giving the consumer their own restore disks is another story in itself.

I install the tools to keep this from happening in the future, but it is up to the end user to make sure to keep the scanners up to date. I install tar for windows and set up a simple backup script rotates every 9 day, they can copy the contents to a cd easily. It feels like a nice setup. My Documents is set up on a different hard drive / partition.

I set their Ubuntu up to mount the Windows partition. I then use partimage to create my own restore disks of the entire system. If firefox is installed it can be made to share data between the windows and ubuntu versions seamlessly.

My point in all of this
When I give the computer back I show them how to log into ubuntu and possible uses and times when they might want to use it. I also show them all of the software that they can choose from. I also show them that some of the applications -- firefox, thunderbird, openoffice are in both operating systems.

I really believe if some virus or malware is on their system and they need their data it will be a relief to tell them to boot into ubuntu and get your data, etc... Until the pc can be looked at.

The moral: When windows breaks and people see Ubuntu is letting them save their data, maybe, just maybe, there will be a new Ubuntu'er

Brandel Valico

February 27th, 2007, 11:19 AM

Personally I switched to Ubuntu due to the Fact that my lovely pre-installed copy of Windows XP was found to be a pirated copy by the Genuine Windows program. Bought it from a computer manufacture who apparently was installing pirated versions to cut costs. I explained all this to Microsoft who told me that I should basically buy a new copy of their software. Had they perhaps offered to work with me instead of just demanding I tell them who sold it to me without even an offer of aid to me in return. I might have never switched over to Linux.

But seeing as how they didn't I have and have since then converted others at my job to it as well. One of whom has converted his entire family over. So add another 7 boxes to the total.

Now my wife still runs Windows XP due to the reasons mentioned above by many others.

1) It came pre-installed. (Her's had no problem)
2) It plays all her games without a hassle.
3) It runs all the media files she collects. (This reason has no real merit anymore though she admits. As Linux will too with a bit of work)

In the end, I am a solid convert and will never again bother running Windows on my own computer, My wife isn't. I'm the one who fixes and works on the computers she simply uses hers.

So you have two groups of people as I see it. Those who over time will switch due to the fact they prefer open source and hate to pay and are willing and capable of working a bit to set up their comp to do what they want it to do. Then you have the other side those who just want the darn thing to run and do what they want it to without any real work being needed. Those are the people that simply put won't switch until they have to buy a new computer and it comes with the OS being Linux.

Craftycorner

February 27th, 2007, 02:40 PM

Ha, wanna ditch an old microsoft pc? load it with Linux and your nice and legal...:popcorn:

Trebuchet

February 27th, 2007, 07:14 PM

I agree that MS should keep doing what it's been doing. I'm against piracy of MS' software (although for a different reason than they are). I do find their methods annoying to legitimate customers (it drove me away long before longhorn/vista came to market), but again I'm fine with that as it may push people toward alternative and open platforms... Or at least be aware of them.

As for the comment on Maolinux, if they follow the letter and spirit of the GPL and people want to buy something they can get for free... There is nothing stopping them from trying to rebrand Ubuntu and sell it. Good luck with that though...Microsoft's attempts to limit piracy are understandable, although I think the high prices they charge for their OS's and software do contribute. I know lots of people who would buy Office or XP legitimately if they were less expensive, but use pirated versions because they don't have the money. MS could halve what it charges for everything and still turn a tremendous profit. (I'm not innocent of this crime myself; I used a pirated version of Office 97 for several years before I finally bought a legal copy of Office 2000. I'm just not going to pretend it was for phony altruistic reasons like "getting back at the man" or to support the free software movement. I used stolen software because I simply couldn't afford otherwise.)

As to Maobuntu, I wonder how open-minded many of the Linux community would be if Microsoft suddenly "borrowed" Ubuntu in toto except for relabeling and brought out Winbuntu for $99? Given the anger I've seen directed at Novell for their deal with Microsoft, I suspect the reaction would be outrage rather than joy that MS had finally seen the light of Linux.

Coelocanth

February 27th, 2007, 07:35 PM

As to Maobuntu, I wonder how open-minded many of the Linux community would be if Microsoft suddenly "borrowed" Ubuntu in toto except for relabeling and brought out Winbuntu for $99? Given the anger I've seen directed at Novell for their deal with Microsoft, I suspect the reaction would be outrage rather than joy that MS had finally seen the light of Linux.

They should probably rejoice if that were to happen. For one thing, it would mean the consumer would get official MS support for their Linux distro, which would probably lead to more of the average Joe trying out Linux, and it would quite likely mean hardware and software vendors across the board would soon start supporting Linux for their products (assuming Winbuntu became a popular OS). And that would be a very good thing indeed.

Trebuchet

February 27th, 2007, 08:43 PM

They should probably rejoice if that were to happen. For one thing, it would mean the consumer would get official MS support for their Linux distro, which would probably lead to more of the average Joe trying out Linux, and it would quite likely mean hardware and software vendors across the board would soon start supporting Linux for their products (assuming Winbuntu became a popular OS). And that would be a very good thing indeed.I wish I could believe that, but I think far too many Linux users nurse a near-pathologcal hatred for Microsoft that would contaminate in their eyes anything Microsoft does. If MS ever brings out Winux I expect a mass migration of diehard Linux users to BeOS, FreeBSD, or other open-source OS. After all, anything Microsoft endorses must be wrong.

Frankly, I think the average joe doesn't care what OS he's using as long as it does what he needs it to do, so any inclination to use another version of Linux would be minimal to most users of a Windows Linux. All they'll care about is it came with their new PC and says Windows on the label. That'll be good enough for 95% of PC users. (BTW, I think a Windows version of Linux or some other UNIX-like OS is virtually inevitable, which is one reason I think they made that deal with Novell. The advantages in stability and security of *nix operating systems makes it a smart move; and it would probably look just like a version of Windows on the surface. Bill Gates may be an asshat, but he's never been accused of being stupid.)

blastus

February 27th, 2007, 09:47 PM

No, it's as blatant a case of rationalization as I've seen in a long time. Both cases feature theft; the only difference is that the second case involved two thieves. If Party A wants to give his copy of copywritten software to Party B, then he's first obligated to remove said software from his own system.

It's stealing, plain and simple. Attempts to pretend it's not are what is non sequitur.

No it isn't. The fact is is that you can mention that you use software you didn't pay for in practically any social circle and no one would bat an eye. But if you said you walked into a store and walked out with a piece of software without paying for it, there would be little question that you stole something and are a thief; in fact someone might even call the cops on you.

If it were as cut as dry as you think it is, you would think that using software you didn't pay for would be as socially unacceptable as stealing software from a store is. But it isn't and it isn't because isn't cut and dry. Not recognizing that there is a difference between these two cases is simply dishonest.

You should really read this article as it is an eye opener. ‘Software Piracy’ Is Not Theft (http://www.settingtheworldtorights.com/node/542)

blastus

February 27th, 2007, 09:55 PM

Since about 90% of the world's computer users are using Microsoft products, you're obviously traveling in a very restricted circle. You should get out more.

90% of the world's computers use Microsoft Windows because that's what came with their computers. Of course most of them use Genuine Microsoft Windows. The price was hidden in the cost of the purchase of the system and so the cost of Microsoft Windows could not even be considered.

I was referring to people who go out and buy Microsoft software. You even said so yourself, you know lots of people that pirate Microsoft software because it is so expensive.

squidmaster

February 27th, 2007, 09:58 PM

I know vista, xp and now i got ubuntu 2 weeks ago.
I'm a windows pro user but i decided to make a final move to linux.
Has a gamer, i fing it better to play my video games xp or linux.
Hardware requirements for Vista is to Higher compared to Windows Xp, for the same task.
Hardware requirement of video games such as battlefield 2142 is higher than xp, even in memory.
vista require almost twice as much ram as to xp in gaming.
the graphism is still less impressive than beryl/compiz on linux

umm
wow
check your spelling
really

and all you have to do is remove all the BS from Vista which is REALLY easy and games get a boost in preformance

Trebuchet

February 27th, 2007, 10:21 PM

No it isn't. The fact is is that you can mention that you use software you didn't pay for in practically any social circle and no one would bat an eye. But if you said you walked into a store and walked out with a piece of software without paying for it, there would be little question that you stole something and are a thief; in fact someone might even call the cops on you.

If it were as cut as dry as you think it is, you would think that using software you didn't pay for would be as socially unacceptable as stealing software from a store is. But it isn't and it isn't because isn't cut and dry. Not recognizing that there is a difference between these two cases is simply dishonest.

You should really read this article as it is an eye opener. ‘Software Piracy’ Is Not Theft (http://www.settingtheworldtorights.com/node/542)Keep pretending they're both not theft. The fact one causes conniptions while the other is drearily common doesn't make either right, just something so common nobody wants to draw attention to it. Most adults will admit to using marijuana; few will 'fess up to using heroin or crack. All are illegal drugs, but marijuana doesn't have the societal ramifications of heroin or crack. Pretending it's justifiable is pure sophistry.

With the introduction of first-class free operating systems like Linux and related productivity software, the rationalization for stealing software vanishes completely. If you use pirated software strictly so you can play World of Warcraft or stolen tunes on your iPod, you're no different than a teenager stealing a car to take a joyride. There's a helluva difference between "need" and "want."

Open source as a philosophy is admirable; open source as a supposed justification to steal licensed software is something completely different. Propagandize all you want; you're not going to convince me you're doing it for altruistic reasons.

blastus

February 27th, 2007, 10:53 PM

Keep pretending they're both not theft. The fact one causes conniptions while the other is drearily common doesn't make either right, just something so common nobody wants to draw attention to it. Most adults will admit to using marijuana; few will 'fess up to using heroin or crack. All are illegal drugs, but marijuana doesn't have the societal ramifications of heroin or crack. Pretending it's justifiable is pure sophistry.

I never claimed that the first case was not theft. I simply refuted your claim that both cases were the exact same thing. I never said anything about right or wrong.

With the introduction of first-class free operating systems like Linux and related productivity software, the rationalization for stealing software vanishes completely. If you use pirated software strictly so you can play World of Warcraft or stolen tunes on your iPod, you're no different than a teenager stealing a car to take a joyride. There's a helluva difference between "need" and "want."

When it comes to the law, except under exceptional circumstances, what the person needed vs what they wanted is irrelevant. For example, a police officer may need to break the law and speed and run red lights to chase a suspect. A man speeding to drive his pregnant wife to the hospital may be a considering factor. I can't think of any case where someone's need to use so-and-so pirated software is so great that it could even be legally considered.

Open source as a philosophy is admirable; open source as a supposed justification to steal licensed software is something completely different. Propagandize all you want; you're not going to convince me you're doing it for altruistic reasons.

I'm not trying to convince you. I pointed out that your argument that using pirated software is absolutely no different than stealing is non sequitur.

I use open source software because the cost of Microsoft software is not worth it to me. I'm not paying hundreds and hundreds of dollars for software that I may only use occasionally and only use 1% of its features and have to pay for upgrades every few years. I don't believe anyone else would either. Like I said before, there are lots of people who continue to pirate Microsoft software because they are too lazy to look at the alternatives.

Vista's price along with its product activation, validation, DRM, hardware requirements etc... may incite some users to consider an alternative. Some may choose a Mac, others may choose Linux.

BigBabyDaddy1968

February 27th, 2007, 11:52 PM

Vista's price along with its product activation, validation, DRM, hardware requirements etc... may incite some users to consider an alternative. Some may choose a Mac, others may choose Linux.
Linux for me! Right here! And I even have a voucher for Vista Home Premium that I got with the Dell desktop I bought for Xmas...that will not get used, so the cost to me is a non-issue. MS have finally gone too far w/ the Corporation as Big Brother routine and I am tired of their act, buggy software, and generally monopolistic attitude. If Ubuntu solves my problems and suits my needs ("need" being a relative term, of course): yay, me! If not, I'll keep searching for a distro that does.

BBD

Craftycorner

February 28th, 2007, 03:37 AM

Trebuchet

February 28th, 2007, 08:41 AM

I'm not trying to convince you. I pointed out that your argument that using pirated software is absolutely no different than stealing is non sequitur.Both are stealing no matter how you try to parse it. We simply apply less condemnation to one form of theft than the other. That doesn't make it acceptable or any less a crime. I didn't say they are exactly the same; I said they are both theft.

As an analogy, both negligent homicide and first degree murder involve the unsanctioned death of a human being. Despite first degree murder being considered a vastly greater crime, that doesn't mean that both are not crimes.

Trebuchet

February 28th, 2007, 08:54 AM

my transfer to linux kubuntu wasn't cuz it's free. my windowsware was bought and paid for. it was cuz of the relative lack of viruses. windows is just infested. i heard that the virus that infects linux needs to be 'smarter' than the one infecting windows cuz of the permissions used in linux to access files. linux malware is also hard to find. :guitar:I don't really understand the often seemingly irrational fear of viruses and malware many Linux users seem to have. Viruses are easy to avoid if you use antivirus software and use basic safe computing practices. In 10+ years on the internet exactly one virus made it onto my hard drive (via e-mail), and that was flagged as infected by my AV software before it finished downloading from the mail server. I deleted it with extreme prejudice, notified the few people in could have come from that they may have had a virus, and moved on. I don't need Linux to be functionally immune to virii.

There are plenty of excellent AV and anti-malware programs available for Windows; many of them free. Since most of them self-update and can run scheduled scans without human interference, I fail to see why using them is in any way onerous to the PC owner. Dependence on Linux's supposed immunity to viruses seems to me far greater a risk, because people assuming they are 100% immune may ignore safe practices because they assume their OS makes them inherently safe.

BoyOfDestiny

February 28th, 2007, 10:10 AM

Microsoft's attempts to limit piracy are understandable, although I think the high prices they charge for their OS's and software do contribute. I know lots of people who would buy Office or XP legitimately if they were less expensive, but use pirated versions because they don't have the money. MS could halve what it charges for everything and still turn a tremendous profit. (I'm not innocent of this crime myself; I used a pirated version of Office 97 for several years before I finally bought a legal copy of Office 2000. I'm just not going to pretend it was for phony altruistic reasons like "getting back at the man" or to support the free software movement. I used stolen software because I simply couldn't afford otherwise.)

As to Maobuntu, I wonder how open-minded many of the Linux community would be if Microsoft suddenly "borrowed" Ubuntu in toto except for relabeling and brought out Winbuntu for $99? Given the anger I've seen directed at Novell for their deal with Microsoft, I suspect the reaction would be outrage rather than joy that MS had finally seen the light of Linux.

Agreed. I do not know of any users that have not "pirated" or even gotten cracks for legit software (i.e. game no-cd in order to listen to other cds while playing.)
It's just I don't think people are as dishonest as they are painted to be by MS and other groups (cough the RIAA). I've used a "pirated" version then gone out and bought the next release (photoshop 4 in that case then went and got 5... quite a while ago.)

Either way though, I'd recommend a free alternative hands down to a cracked proprietary app if the user isn't willing to pay (this kind of person... I've heard the most gripes about GIMP from people using "free" photoshops) or those who can't afford to pay (some of these companies could cut prices and still turn a huge profit.)

As for MS releasing a Linux distro of there own, the only thing they could do to scare people is in regard to patents. This is why the Novell deal pisses people off. Vague ideas of intellectual property and patent protection, enough to get around the GPL's goals (do you have the same rights to the software and the code even if the code you're getting has MS patent issues... Will MS sue you if you use it or incorporate it elsewhere?) However, many companies support Linux, so a patent "war" would be interesting...

Anyway, if they made lots of improvements, fixed up wine, d3d to opengl stuff... I imagine people would donate a dollar each, buy one copy. Strip out any MS nasty stuff (DRM or maybe those NSA security holes, disable some default services) then get those source code changes out there and re brand the distro and distribute it free (sort of like redhat enterprise vs centos)

I don't think they'll try it, I know they have used bsd code since that license allows them to close it up, same for apple (using freebsd 4.4...) With the GPL it makes it hard to get a free lunch in that sense. Which is why I like it (and of course why some others hate it :) )

Trebuchet

February 28th, 2007, 08:45 PM

I think the Novell deal was Microsoft's way of hedging their bets if the market swings towards Linux and/or open source. A big part of the Novell arrangement was to ensure compatibility between Windows and Linux. Nothing says Windows has to run on DOS or a DOS-like kernel; it could easily switch to Linux or another UNIX-like OS underneath the GUI. (Maybe OpenBSD for maximum security? ;) ) How would it seem to have Windows using an ext3 filesystem instead of NTFS?

While a Windows Linux obviously runs the risk of allowing users to migrate to other OS's, it might also draw back users who were unhappy with the stability and security of their previous operating systems. And the free kernel from Linux or BSD would allow them to use a lot fewer programmers for the core of the system, saving them oodles of $$$. Face it, it's been marketing and a willingness to twist the arms of computer manufacturers that has allowed Microsoft to dominate the OS market. Nothing says they can't apply those factors to an open-source version of Windows just as effectively. People seem perfectly willing to pay for Red Hat or SUSE; I suspect the Microsoft name would make a lot of average computer users more comfortable using Linux. I didn't see any mass migration from Apple when OS X switched to a NeXT kernel (Far from it!), probably because most people care far more about the interface than what's underneath. If it works, they'll accept it.

Cannaregio

March 1st, 2007, 03:44 AM

Methinks that the discussion about 'pirated' software underestimates how important this same 'pirated' stuff is for people (like me) that have legit copies of some software that DOES NOT RUN without useless gimmicks (like having the cd or dvd phisically inside the drive, having to register on line with some snooping server, having to remember/write down a 25 random letters combination, and so on).

So I think I condone 'piracy'. Let's see if I can explain it.

Thanks god there are many good crackers, out there that give out for free all those 'no-cd' patches, 'pirated' patches that I of course use and appreciate.
I have a huge RESPECT for people taking the time and having the skill to create a patch that eliminates a silly protection. Crackers are heroes to my eyes: Academies of reverse engineering should be created all over the planet and rely heavily on public funding :-)

The fact that some people could use these same patches in order to avoid paying any money at all to the software patent holders has no relevance whatsoever for me (albeit I understand that it could be relevant for the patent holders... bad luck for them).

I always buy my software (in fact now that I am using GNU-Linux this is no more true... let's say "I always used to buy my software"), but I don't consider people that decide not to buy it as 'enemies'. They don't annoy me in the least. Those that DO annoy me are the clowns that insert ludicrous copy protections that compel all users to jump through hoops in order to use their own bought software.
And don't tell me that the people stealing software are the culprits provoking these annoying protections: all software protections are anyway useless. Since they get cracked very quickly, they lack any reason d'être: in fact any Vista-zombie could -and probably will- download for free whatever 'RPM-protected' will appear, through any rapidshare-alike, or ad hoc IRC-channel, or Usenet, or torrent, or other P2P systems. So, from my own simple (though admittedly maybe rather egoistical) point of view, my 'enemies' are those that protect my software, not those that 'steal' copies of it that I don't need.

So, to say the truth, the eventual 'theft' of patented software is completely irrelevant to me: a non issue vis-à-vis the real point: pirated software is almost always more user-friendly and more generally useful than the real stuff, even for the few, or many, that did really buy 'the real stuff' in the first place.

Anyway all the above is already fairly obsolete: I won't surely install, nor ever use, Vista or any other proprietary OS again in my life: thanks GNU-Linux my needs for pirated software (excluding the better working 'pirated' Cedega) are passé :-P

7creature

March 1st, 2007, 07:49 AM

Perhaps a significant portion of Linux and Mac users are avoiding things about Windows they don't want (viruses, spyware, sluggish performance, the need to constantly run and update a host of 3rd party apps that minimize these defects)
Eh? Pretty poor attempt at Microsoft bashing.

First - viruses, spyware - ??? WTF are you talking about? I am running XP for 2 years without using any antivirus or anti-spyware (I install it only once in a while - usually when writing posts like this to be sure there isn't any bug present .-) - and I definitely don't have any viruses or spyware. Yeah, they exist, but if you are at least a bit competent user you don't have to fear them.

Sluggish performance - LOL. I have no idea how OS X is doing generally (never even seen one) but judging from benchmarks, OS X has some serious issues (i.e. really slow compared to Windows - for example check this Photoshop benchmark: http://www.circuitremix.com/index.php?q=node/9 ).

I like linux, but I am not using it because I think that Windows XP is bad OS. In fact I think Windows XP (and Vista) is pretty good OS.

I really don't like this dubious custom to bash Windows everytime. Almost like that stupid Apple commercials - really pitiful...

I mean - do you need to try bashing Windows to make linux more appealing or something?

Trebuchet

March 1st, 2007, 08:39 AM

I disagree with you on that only because I think the vast majority of computer users wouldn't have a clue where to get cracked versions of software. Make no mistake, it is the computing public that the software publishers are trying to deter, not hackers. The computer-using public sees reports of kids being arrested for illegally downloading CDs or DVDs and stories about computers being locked-down by copyright protection and most of them will decide it's just not worth the risk to pirate.

Software companies will never be able be able to stop cracking of security features. All they're really trying to do (despite what they say) is reduce it among the general public. That's a perfectly reasonable objective, though I deplore their ham-fisted approach to the problem.

Frak

March 1st, 2007, 08:40 AM

Eh? Pretty poor attempt at Microsoft bashing.

First - viruses, spyware - ??? WTF are you talking about? I am running XP for 2 years without using any antivirus or anti-spyware (I install it only once in a while - usually when writing posts like this to be sure there isn't any bug present .-) - and I definitely don't have any viruses or spyware. Yeah, they exist, but if you are at least a bit competent user you don't have to fear them.

Sluggish performance - LOL. I have no idea how OS X is doing generally (never even seen one) but judging from benchmarks, OS X has some serious issues (i.e. really slow compared to Windows - for example check this Photoshop benchmark: http://www.circuitremix.com/index.php?q=node/9 ).

I like linux, but I am not using it because I think that Windows XP is bad OS. In fact I think Windows XP (and Vista) is pretty good OS.

I really don't like this dubious custom to bash Windows everytime. Almost like that stupid Apple commercials - really pitiful...

I mean - do you need to try bashing Windows to make linux more appealing or something?
No,
Mostly because we can. At least for me it has no reason to do with making more people come than it is to make a pun at windows expense, and everybody have a laugh. :lolflag: We don't have to be serious all the time, because, all work and no play makes Jimmy a dull boy... :guitar:

Cannaregio

March 1st, 2007, 09:52 AM

Microsoft Windows Vista and Microsoft Office 2007 are on the horizon, including new fancy graphic user interfaces... is Ubuntu Linux likely to survive against such strong competition?

John

Yep, of course.
You see... Vista and Office 2007 represent indeed a strong competition, but not because of their supposed 'intrinsic' value (they have none. Vista is outclassed by Compiz, Beryl and company, not to mention even the Mac proprietary crap it cloned, even on the very frills level: the level zombies so love).
Yet any Microsoft offering, no matter how bad and bloated, does represent indeed a strong competition: just because that's the OS-version and 'office suite'-version every average zombie of the planet is going to find blinking in every store of the planet from now on, like it or not, whenever he buys a new box.

So it is a competition based on inertia and market dominance, not on innovation or usefulness or features.

C'mon: just to make an example: who in his right mind would use an obsolete wordprocessor with a proprietary and clumsy pre-Internet format (doc) turning out non-html documents, like Microsoft's word crap, if there would be a decent alternative INSTALLED FROM THE BEGINNING?

And who wouldn't prefer a 300-400 euro GNU-Linux box, with eveything working for free, and no antispyware hassles whatsoever, to a Vista frill-filled much more expensive bloated memory slurper?

That 'competition' you'r speaking about, the same that has people all over the planet 'paying' for proprietary software they could easily substitute -even inside windows- for free and often better alternatives (look at that Norton clown products for instance), is possible just because hardware vendors do not have the spine, the gut and the brain to package a good GNU-Linux distro with their hardware.
There could be as many millions to be made with a cheap-hardware-ubuntu-ready 'WalMart package' as Microsoft would lose.
Maybe things will change during the next months, though. We'll see.

I must admit that I'm speaking out of what I have seen on alien Vista boxes, though: I'm not using personally any windows anymore at all.
The few proprietary windoze games that I (think I) needed run nowadays either in vmware or in a (of course cracked) cedega environment.
In fact I doubt I'll ever use Vista in my life: indeed I believe Vista is not only not worth buying, judging from the relatively scarce leechers on torrents (http://isohunt.com/torrents/?iht=-1&ihq=%22vista%22+full+OR+install+-poker+-texas), it is not even worth downloading for free: wasted bandwidth if you ask me.

Moreover there's not even any need to bash Vista at all, from what I have seen (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=t5Q&q=%22vista+flop%22+OR+%22vista+problems%22+OR+%22v ista+annoyances%22&btnG=Search) I think it 'bashes itself' pretty well :-)

Maybe times are now a-changing for good, you can read it (http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&client=opera&rls=en&hs=t5Q&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&tab=wn&q=vista+linux+ubuntu&btnG=Search) in the news :-)

FLPCGuy

March 1st, 2007, 11:21 AM

Strictly as an exercise I offered to rebuild a customer's dead PC with Linux at cost, about $200. He agreed. I had built five other AMD PCs over the years with cheap PCChips motherboards but never had a problem. After 3 years of service, the video died on his and when I purchased a $50 AGP video card to fix it, that didn't work either. I felt bad, hence the rebuild offer.

I was very interested in spreading Linux to replace Win9x (though this was an XP Pro machine) and wanted to see if I could do it for $200. It had been a few years since I build a PC and discovered a lot has changed. The last PC I built was a Celeron D that was massively overclocked by Intel at 2.4 GHz and generated more heat than I could dissipate with the biggest cooler and dual case fans. It's jacked up 800 MHz front side bus ran hot too. I expected about the same from this AMD.

This system was even faster with a 1000 MHz bus, dual channel capable DDR2 3200 RAM, and a dual core 64-bit Sempron 3200+. Imagine my surprise when the CPU temp registered room temperature instead of well above boiling! It appears factory overclocking is no longer the trend so braver souls than I could probably jack this system up well over it's normal 2 GHz. For a budget system, I'm impressed with the performance, especially in Linux. XP still doesn't run as well, even with the much faster SATA 7200 HD.

I initially tried a PCChips A33G motherboard with built-in SiS 128-bit video, but a bad memory module made me think this board didn't work. I exchanged it for a Microstar Int'l. K9N6SGM-V PCI Express16 board with an NVidia MPC61 chipset and GeForce 6100 video built-in for $10 more on sale. Normally this board is $77, but the video alone is worth $50. Because both boards support the new PCI Express16 video slot that takes 75 watts, I needed a new 450W 24-pin power supply. Luckily I found a ChiefMax on sale for $15, but expect to pay $45 or more for this item. Gamers who add expensive video cards must spend far more for a good power supply. Here's what I used:

MSI K9N6SGM-V 1 GHz 939-pin AMD X2 dual channel sw raid MB $64
AMD Sempron64 X2 3200+ dual core (Athlon XPs) CPU, sink & fan $74
512 MB DDR2 667 MHz (PC 4800) RAM (need 2 for dual channel) $40
ChiefMax 450W 24-pin SATA ready power supply $15
total $193
Options:
Kubuntu Edgy 64-bit & Simply Mepis (Dapper) 4 CD set $13
80 GB 7200 RPM white label SATA HD $50
new kb, mouse, return shipping, replace bad memory, XP Home $158
Bottom line: It is possible to rebuild a PC to run Linux for under $200 US and it would cost twice that to install Vista.

Yossarian

March 1st, 2007, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Trebuchet
I think the Novell deal was Microsoft's way of hedging their bets if the market swings towards Linux and/or open source. A big part of the Novell arrangement was to ensure compatibility between Windows and Linux. Nothing says Windows has to run on DOS or a DOS-like kernel; it could easily switch to Linux or another UNIX-like OS underneath the GUI. (Maybe OpenBSD for maximum security? ) How would it seem to have Windows using an ext3 filesystem instead of NTFS?

While a Windows Linux obviously runs the risk of allowing users to migrate to other OS's, it might also draw back users who were unhappy with the stability and security of their previous operating systems. And the free kernel from Linux or BSD would allow them to use a lot fewer programmers for the core of the system, saving them oodles of $$$. Face it, it's been marketing and a willingness to twist the arms of computer manufacturers that has allowed Microsoft to dominate the OS market. Nothing says they can't apply those factors to an open-source version of Windows just as effectively. People seem perfectly willing to pay for Red Hat or SUSE; I suspect the Microsoft name would make a lot of average computer users more comfortable using Linux. I didn't see any mass migration from Apple when OS X switched to a NeXT kernel (Far from it!), probably because most people care far more about the interface than what's underneath. If it works, they'll accept it.

Totally remaking Windows would not be in their best interest. Windows' marketshare is almost totally built on backwards compatability with legacy software, much of it custom-made. Windows' success has never depended on it being the best, or even a good product. Mac users have always been forced to rebuy all their software periodically, so OSX was no huge inconvenience. And the Mac OS APIs were nowhere near the wild and crazy rat's nest that Windows' are.

What would make sense would be for them to support their server applications on Unix through .NET.

Trebuchet

March 1st, 2007, 07:29 PM

Totally remaking Windows would not be in their best interest. Windows' marketshare is almost totally built on backwards compatability with legacy software, much of it custom-made. Windows' success has never depended on it being the best, or even a good product. Mac users have always been forced to rebuy all their software periodically, so OSX was no huge inconvenience. And the Mac OS APIs were nowhere near the wild and crazy rat's nest that Windows' are.

What would make sense would be for them to support their server applications on Unix through .NET.They wouldn't have to totally rework it; all they'd need to do is release a Microsoft version of Linux or BSD to go alongside their current server OS. From that point on they could work to gradually move the market over to open-source.

Microsoft's real money comes from support services, not selling their operating systems. Since Linux is taking an increasingly large chunk of that business, it only makes sense that MS will try to counterattack. Unless Vista and its follow-on are a hell of a lot more stable and secure than their predecessors, I don't see how MS can avoid going to a *nix-based OS. The entire industry is moving that way. Microsoft can lead, follow, or get squashed.

Craftycorner

March 1st, 2007, 11:12 PM

I don't really understand the often seemingly irrational fear of viruses and malware many Linux users seem to have. Viruses are easy to avoid if you use antivirus software and use basic safe computing practices. In 10+ years on the internet exactly one virus made it onto my hard drive (via e-mail), and that was flagged as infected by my AV software before it finished downloading from the mail server. I deleted it with extreme prejudice, notified the few people in could have come from that they may have had a virus, and moved on. I don't need Linux to be functionally immune to virii.

There are plenty of excellent AV and anti-malware programs available for Windows; many of them free. Since most of them self-update and can run scheduled scans without human interference, I fail to see why using them is in any way onerous to the PC owner. Dependence on Linux's supposed immunity to viruses seems to me far greater a risk, because people assuming they are 100% immune may ignore safe practices because they assume their OS makes them inherently safe.

I play very very safe. However, I still got infected via email. I still run antivirus programs, even with linux to prevent what friends I can from getting infected. I just got tired of having to delete this and that. I also worried about stolen crap, cuz viruses and malware can act more quickly than you can hit the delete button. the chores involved with windows xp are a pain in the bytes too.:mad:

use a name

March 2nd, 2007, 07:01 AM

With the introduction of first-class free operating systems like Linux and related productivity software, the rationalization for stealing software vanishes completely. If you use pirated software strictly so you can play World of Warcraft or stolen tunes on your iPod, you're no different than a teenager stealing a car to take a joyride. There's a helluva difference between "need" and "want."

Yes, the rationalization is gone, but there is still a difference between stealing a box from a shop and copying the disc inside. They're indeed both not right. Try taking your laptop to a store, and ask for a disc to copy it. :) Then you're at least not hiding anything. But with stealing a box you're doing harm to te shopowner, where using pirated software may not. (Would you ever buy the software if there would not be a pirated version?)

As to vista troubles/high prices pushing people to linux: it's not only that. It's also linux/open source being good enough atm. I mean, the majority of linux users started using it for a different reason than money/MS problems (I guess...). Of course, the price is an argument, but if linux wouldn't be what it is, lots of switches would be short-lived. ;) So, advocate (free) linux everywhere you can, but in the end it will be the os itselves that will keep the people. (So, yes, as linux is getting better, MS is playing a dangerous game...)

Every now and then, my wife needs to borrow my pc for a few seconds. Ok, she doesn't need to, she could boot another pc (with XP), but that takes a few seconds... So, I let her, She has never had any troubles using linux (and I did not explain anything...), except the first time, when she mailed .otd files around. Oh well, more people aware of oo and linux. :)

Trebuchet

March 2nd, 2007, 08:22 AM

I play very very safe. However, I still got infected via email. I still run antivirus programs, even with linux to prevent what friends I can from getting infected. I just got tired of having to delete this and that. I also worried about stolen crap, cuz viruses and malware can act more quickly than you can hit the delete button. the chores involved with windows xp are a pain in the bytes too.:mad:I've seen numerous Linux users stating they don't bother with AV software at all. I've seen similar comments from Mac users. While I'm glad most Linux users (like you) play it safe, anyone assuming they're invulnerable because of their OS seems irresponsible, like those morons with virus-laden computers who refused to use AV software and had to be kicked off of their ISP. Sooner or later a nastly virus is going to hit Linux, if only because it's getting bigger and Windows is getting "more" secure. (Will it ever be as secure as Linux or BSD? Only if adopts one of those as its kernel.)

Can an infected e-mail from a Windows user infect a Linux machine? Or would that require both users using similar multi-platform software such as Thunderbird. (I use Firefox, but don't like Thunderbird.)

Trebuchet

March 2nd, 2007, 08:31 AM

As to vista troubles/high prices pushing people to linux: it's not only that. It's also linux/open source being good enough atm. I mean, the majority of linux users started using it for a different reason than money/MS problems (I guess...). Of course, the price is an argument, but if linux wouldn't be what it is, lots of switches would be short-lived. ;) So, advocate (free) linux everywhere you can, but in the end it will be the os itselves that will keep the people. (So, yes, as linux is getting better, MS is playing a dangerous game...)Microsoft is going to have to adapt if it plans to survive. While Vista appears to be a decent OS (once they get the bugs out!) it hardly seems something to write home about. (I still think MS is going to end up adopting Linux or BSD as the core of its OS eventually.) As I consider getting a new system, more and more I'm thinking I'll just build it myself and dual-boot XP Pro and Ubuntu. Vista just doesn't excite me. While I'm not adverse to eye-candy, it's not enough to sell me an OS.

While I'm a supporter of Linux and open-source because I believe in free and open markets (being an evil capitalist), Linux still has a way to go before it'll get my undivided attention and sole use. It'll handle most of my basic productivity needs like word processing, web browsing, and e-mail. But it still has trouble with games, playing DVDs, and so far as I know can't sync my Palm OS PDA.

Trebuchet

March 2nd, 2007, 08:40 AM

Yes, the rationalization is gone, but there is still a difference between stealing a box from a shop and copying the disc inside. They're indeed both not right. Try taking your laptop to a store, and ask for a disc to copy it. :) Then you're at least not hiding anything. But with stealing a box you're doing harm to te shopowner, where using pirated software may not. (Would you ever buy the software if there would not be a pirated version?)Studies have shown most middle-class shoplifters steal not because they need it, but for the thrill of doing something "naughty." I suspect much software piracy is the same. It's the excitement of illicit activity; which I strongly suspect also motivates many hackers.

Sometimes I wonder if the best defense Microsoft could erect for Windows would be to simply announce "OK, we admit it. Our security flat-out sucks. We can't stop hackers from breaking into our operating systems, so we're not even going to try anymore. In fact, we'll publish our kernel so they can see all the hidden code. There's nothing tough about cracking Windows; any script-kiddie can do it. Real hackers would take on BSD or Linux." ;)

Yossarian

March 2nd, 2007, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Trebuchet
They wouldn't have to totally rework it; all they'd need to do is release a Microsoft version of Linux or BSD to go alongside their current server OS. From that point on they could work to gradually move the market over to open-source.

Microsoft's real money comes from support services, not selling their operating systems. Since Linux is taking an increasingly large chunk of that business, it only makes sense that MS will try to counterattack. Unless Vista and its follow-on are a hell of a lot more stable and secure than their predecessors, I don't see how MS can avoid going to a *nix-based OS. The entire industry is moving that way. Microsoft can lead, follow, or get squashed.

Good thoughts.

I've seen numerous Linux users stating they don't bother with AV software at all. I've seen similar comments from Mac users. While I'm glad most Linux users (like you) play it safe, anyone assuming they're invulnerable because of their OS seems irresponsible, like those morons with virus-laden computers who refused to use AV software and had to be kicked off of their ISP. Sooner or later a nastly virus is going to hit Linux, if only because it's getting bigger and Windows is getting "more" secure. (Will it ever be as secure as Linux or BSD? Only if adopts one of those as its kernel.)

Can an infected e-mail from a Windows user infect a Linux machine? Or would that require both users using similar multi-platform software such as Thunderbird. (I use Firefox, but don't like Thunderbird.)

The reason Unix has mostly been safe from viruses (on the desktop at least) is that it implements a white-list (x bit on files) rather than a blacklist (virus scan). This means that you have to convince a user to explicitly run a program, rather than just tricking them into clicking an icon, or find an exploit in a program. Tech-savvy Unix users are less likely to run sketchy programs on their computer, and the diversity of network-capable programs used (and lack of Internet Explorer/Outlook) makes exploits much scarcer. There's nothing inherently secure about Firefox and Thunderbird, but any exploits in them are more likely going to be used to deliver Windows viruses rather than Linux viruses.

EDIT:

Of course, once you get a user to run a program that you wrote any security is out the window. With Windows getting to that stage is way easier, for both technical and social reasons, and you're also likely to get the program run with administrator permissions (although not all viruses will need them, depending on what the virus' purpose is).