Linux vs. Vista

[3rdalbum]

so far the only thing I see better about Ubuntu the Windows is that it is cheaper.

You've used Ubuntu for what? 17 days, tops?

I've been using Ubuntu for much longer than I've been using Windows. After having Windows for 17 days, I hadn't even figured out how to stop it from giving me an alarm-storm on startup, much less found anything good about it.

If you honestly can't see anything else good about Ubuntu after a couple of months, then go back to your crippleware.

[pesach]

I mean in this thread, not ubuntu in general

[3rdalbum]

I mean in this thread, not ubuntu in general

I can't believe I just did this, but I browsed this thread and found all the good points about Ubuntu that you missed:

I like the fact that my Ubuntu setup can be a desktop and a server at the same time without f'ing up. I also like the fact that my system can stay up longer than Windows Server 2003 without needing a reboot.

...Gimp, Inkscape etc are as close as an apt-get away...

...all i did for the few months i was on them was chase down programs like the above or registry programs or spyware programs... (on Windows)

...no limitations, installs on any pc or mac...Ubuntu lets you do anything... with no limitations...

...Windows is taking so long to close down because your not cleaning your hard drive, not looking after it delating your internet files, doing your monthly defrag....

...I am looking forward to Xen virtualization in Ubuntu. Vista will never have that, except as a host, but that is very unsatisfactory...

...You can customise your Ubuntu desktop to look like Vista, but you can't customise your Vista desktop to look like Ubuntu...

...Free of DRM...

...Ubuntu (or Linux in general) gives me a strong opportunity to explore, take apart, assemble, control and understand how my computer works...

..Ubuntu never gave me problem that couldn't be worked around or fixed outright....

...When it comes to resource usage, there is no doubt that an average PC will be much better off with Linux...

...Although the "plug and play" of Windows is impressive, what to do if it fails? Ubuntu has some fairly impressive plug-and-play technology and where this fails there is often a plain text configuration file somewhere. Security? Well most acknowledge Windows has a ways to go....

...I use the live Cd... (where's the Windows live CD? Would've come in handy when I was getting the data from a friend's crashed laptop!)

The funniest thing is, these are a whole bunch of good reasons, but there are loads more that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread. These include the ability to directly influence what will be in the next version for the benefit of yourself and others, the ability to customise the CD and the system legally, the ability to strip the system down to bare essential if you have a slow computer, the ability to try out new technology before it's reached Version 1, the small number of drivers you actually need, and the knowledge that what your operating system is doing is well-documented so you don't need to worry about your privacy, and Ubuntu's compliance with several real industry standards which are not very well supported on the Windows side.

And that's just what I can think of, off the top of my head. I know I've missed some of the reasons. As I said before, you should use Ubuntu for a couple of months, with an open mind, before saying that there are no reasons to use it other than cost.

[imnotrich]

The problem, however, remains: it is difficult for a user to walk in to Fry's/Best Buy/PC World/Curry's and buy a PC off the shelf with linux already installed.

Actually, Frys does sell a PC with Linspire, but unfortunately they use pcchips (ecs) mobos that in my limited experience has a 100% failure rate out of the box. I've owned 4 over the years and they all were defective, plus I've never seen one working in the store, either.

What we need is a tier one manufacturer to offer Linux pre-installed. Problem is M$ has exclusive arrangements with many of them.

[aysiu]

The problem, however, remains: it is difficult for a user to walk in to Fry's/Best Buy/PC World/Curry's and buy a PC off the shelf with linux already installed.

Actually, Frys does sell a PC with Linspire, but unfortunately they use pcchips (ecs) mobos that in my limited experience has a 100% failure rate out of the box. I've owned 4 over the years and they all were defective, plus I've never seen one working in the store, either.

What we need is a tier one manufacturer to offer Linux pre-installed. Problem is M$ has exclusive arrangements with many of them.
In the meantime, North America's got System 76, which seems to be getting a lot of good reviews on these forums.

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by motin
Aight - Just say "do not use Ubuntu, because you're too stupid" to 80% of all computer users then?

Did you know that 99.2 % of statistics on the Internet are made up?

Originally posted by motin
I mean so that they can use the vital software that does not have a viable counterpart in Linux at the moment.

Maybe Arby's should start selling items from McDonald's menus. This would allow people to eat the vital foods that have no Arby's counterpart currently.

[motin]

Did you know that 99.2 % of statistics on the Internet are made up?

Great point! You agree or not to me earlier statement?

Maybe Arby's should start selling items from McDonald's menus. This would allow people to eat the vital foods that have no Arby's counterpart currently.

Wow - Arby's looks good :) http://www.arbys.com/menu/

Well, if Arby's had it's goal set to conquer the world fast food market - some McDonald's-style burgers on the alternative menu would lure enough people there so that they can try the full menu - then it is a great idea.

[motin]

I tottaly agree with you. Windows is annoying, but I still have not been able to even get Ubuntu to boot from my hd, so until I can do that, Im going with windows:-\"

You DO have reported this as the bug it is, haven't you?

...no limitations, installs on any pc or mac...Ubuntu lets you do anything... with no limitations...

The no 1 reason I am on Ubuntu right now!

...You can customise your Ubuntu desktop to look like Vista, but you can't customise your Vista desktop to look like Ubuntu...

Great point. It is a matter of months before a Vista-theme based on Aixgl/xgl will be available that will lure 90% of the noobs right off that they would be running Vista. Just to prove the point - then they can choose MacOSX theme as well, or any else... For a noob the eye candy is much what matters.

...Free of DRM...

DRM is a lump of cancer in the computer world and a result of old-fashioned proprietary greedy ideology that has gone to far...

..Ubuntu never gave me problem that couldn't be worked around or fixed outright....

So true. There is always IRC and forums that eventually will get you up and going. Not without sweat though - lots of hours are spent on it in the beginning. But then I spent several years of learning Windows so...

...I use the live Cd... (where's the Windows live CD? Would've come in handy when I was getting the data from a friend's crashed laptop!)

There is a Live XP CD sold for $40 somewhere on the net - with a menu and everything (as opposed to BartPE) and not requiring an own Windows-copy.

The problem, however, remains: it is difficult for a user to walk in to Fry's/Best Buy/PC World/Curry's and buy a PC off the shelf with linux already installed.

What we need is a tier one manufacturer to offer Linux pre-installed. Problem is M$ has exclusive arrangements with many of them.

Certainly - this is the vital point for spreading Ubuntu! But first we need to prove the manufacturers that Ubuntu is a great OEM alternative - by going to Fry's/Best Buy/PC World/Curry's and asking "Do you have Ubuntu on any machine pre-installed? No - Oh what a pity - are you going to get this in the future? Sorry I do not think I can buy any computer without Ubuntu... Do you have a number to the manager here?" etc.

[motin]

I just got inspired by this thread and wrote two articles:
http://wiki.motin.eu/WhatIsFreedom
http://wiki.motin.eu/WhatYouCanDoForFreedom

Suggestions of improvement always welcome. Feel free to enhance them yourself as well (just register and edit away!)

[motin]

I just got inspired by this thread together with some others and wrote two articles:
http://wiki.motin.eu/WhatIsFreedom
http://wiki.motin.eu/WhatYouCanDoForFreedom

Suggestions of improvement always welcome. Feel free to enhance them yourself as well (just register and edit away!)

[xpod]

Good Stuff!!!

EDIT: and thats just glancing at it.WILL read it later ...when kids aint running riot:rolleyes:

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by motin
Great point! You agree or not to me earlier statement?


That Windows is better than Ubuntu? Depends what you want it for.

Windows has commercial support. It's also hideous FrankenWare, and seems to have been developed by the same people who brought us the Winchester House. I get endless complaints about the Windows XP workstations on my LAN. My Ubuntu workstations and Debian sarge server work just fine without bugging me.

Anyways, that's my OS minirant for anyone who cares. As for this thread, I'm sure that you've noticed by now that the other posters are a little defensive about how popular 'that other OS' is. Just a word to the wise.

[CommieCowboy]

While my computer is easily powerful enough to support Vista (It's not state of the art, but it's good enough that trivial tasks are effortless and I am able to play modern games (although Saturn emulation is still a bit slow sometimes...lol) on low-to-medium settings, for instance.) Vista is going to be loaded to the brim with DRM crap that I want nowhere near my computer.

Until somebody is able to create an illegally hacked version of Vista that gives control to me as opposed to the assholes in Hollywood and at Microsoft, I'm not even going to TRY Vista unless it's on someone else's computer.

Besides, I'm quite fond of XP Pro and am also growing fond of Ubuntu.

[Yossarian]

Originally posted by maniacmusician
can vista dual boot with a linux system without wiping it out (assuming that the linux system is installed first)? I don't really feel like risking my perfectly installed system that i do not want to ever have to reinstall. ever.

Sort of. It'll erase your bootloader without warning you, so be sure you know how to use a bootdisk or something to reinstall.

Also, I think you should free some space on your disk before running the Vista install, so all it has to do is make a new partition there.

EDIT: Oops, looks like someone already answered the question.

Anyways, finally remembered why I was in this thread.

I'm sort of considering putting the final version of Vista on two machines in my house. Right now they're on XP.

I hear alot of yelling and screaming about DRM, but as far I can see all there is that HD-DVD copy protection or whatever. I couldn't care less about that as no one watches movies on the computers, and I don't even own any HD-DVD movies.

Anyone out there got a straight answer on all this? Will Vista be more or less resistant to being hosed by malware? Does it prevent you from doing anything legit with your system?

[motin]

can vista dual boot with a linux system without wiping it out (assuming that the linux system is installed first)? I don't really feel like risking my perfectly installed system that i do not want to ever have to reinstall. ever.

I have to reply a second time. Of course you should NOT do it without BACKUPING first! And also, hopefully you understand that you'll need a second partition for vista dont you?

Take a look at halfway finished http://wiki.motin.eu/BackingUpALinuxDesktopTheKillerStrategy if you like.

[Dr. C]

I went the route of running Vista in VMWare server. No need to mess around with the MBR, GRUB partitions etc.

[pesach]

You DO have reported this as the bug it is, haven't you?
How would I report it?

[Iandefor]

Aight - Just say "do not use Ubuntu, because you're too stupid" to 80% of all computer users then? If 80% of all computer users are unable to comprehend that iTunes won't work on Linux because Apple won't port it, certainly. Ubuntu isn't magic and if they can't comprehend that fact then I would be quite happy to say that perhaps it isn't the operating system for them.

I mean so that they can use the vital software that does not have a viable counterpart in Linux at the moment. So far, you've mentioned iTunes and games. Some vital software, indeed.

Also - maybe you should try to use hardware that is supported by Windows? Like Ubuntu-users need to do (but the other way around of course)?Trying to use hardware supported by Windows? What the hell does HP support if not Windows?

Whatever, that's beside the point. I'm just saying that Windows is not "a great OS" as you insist.

[pesach]

I can't believe I just did this, but I browsed this thread and found all the good points about Ubuntu that you missed:

I like the fact that my Ubuntu setup can be a desktop and a server at the same time without f'ing up. I also like the fact that my system can stay up longer than Windows Server 2003 without needing a reboot.

...Gimp, Inkscape etc are as close as an apt-get away...

...all i did for the few months i was on them was chase down programs like the above or registry programs or spyware programs... (on Windows)

...no limitations, installs on any pc or mac...Ubuntu lets you do anything... with no limitations...

...Windows is taking so long to close down because your not cleaning your hard drive, not looking after it delating your internet files, doing your monthly defrag....

...I am looking forward to Xen virtualization in Ubuntu. Vista will never have that, except as a host, but that is very unsatisfactory...

...You can customise your Ubuntu desktop to look like Vista, but you can't customise your Vista desktop to look like Ubuntu...

...Free of DRM...

...Ubuntu (or Linux in general) gives me a strong opportunity to explore, take apart, assemble, control and understand how my computer works...

..Ubuntu never gave me problem that couldn't be worked around or fixed outright....

...When it comes to resource usage, there is no doubt that an average PC will be much better off with Linux...

...Although the "plug and play" of Windows is impressive, what to do if it fails? Ubuntu has some fairly impressive plug-and-play technology and where this fails there is often a plain text configuration file somewhere. Security? Well most acknowledge Windows has a ways to go....

...I use the live Cd... (where's the Windows live CD? Would've come in handy when I was getting the data from a friend's crashed laptop!)

The funniest thing is, these are a whole bunch of good reasons, but there are loads more that haven't been mentioned yet in this thread. These include the ability to directly influence what will be in the next version for the benefit of yourself and others, the ability to customise the CD and the system legally, the ability to strip the system down to bare essential if you have a slow computer, the ability to try out new technology before it's reached Version 1, the small number of drivers you actually need, and the knowledge that what your operating system is doing is well-documented so you don't need to worry about your privacy, and Ubuntu's compliance with several real industry standards which are not very well supported on the Windows side.

And that's just what I can think of, off the top of my head. I know I've missed some of the reasons. As I said before, you should use Ubuntu for a couple of months, with an open mind, before saying that there are no reasons to use it other than cost.

Ok ok I stand corrected, but the fact remains that Ubuntu STILL does not boot off my hd

[BLTicklemonster]

Ubuntu any flavor > any windows.

Why?

It's free.

Case closed.


You may all cease posting to this thread now. :)

[BLTicklemonster]

I don't really think that Ubuntu should even be placed as a competitor to vista. Ubuntu is it's own thing, totally different animal. But I can assure you, as time moves on and more people make it easier to set things up, Linux in general will start taking it's place on desktops and laptops all over the world. Nobody wants to buy a car they have to rebuild every time they get to a red light, but it's getting better all the time. I give it two years and you will see a massive change. Heck, in the last two years look at what has happened!

[Najand]

Is it important? I don't know why this thread is so popular that much... Some moderators should lock it, becuase it doesn't have any use at all.

[carloslosgrande]

I've been using windows since about '88 and have yet to find ANYTHING even remotely user friendly about it [its great selling point]. I began in computers working with mainframes about the time pc's were just beginning. then I moved to another company, all on Windows pc's and frustration upon frustration grew. then I went to something where i had no contact with computers at all for several years. Big changes everywhere, but windows has become more complex is a desperate bid to remedy its basic insanity, and has failed.
My time with Ubuntu is recent but, so far, impressive. Certainly worth the effort. In my experience most people tolerate windows as they are unaware of alternatives.

[kcgreg]

Don't look at the cover look at the content.:KS

Windows vista got a lot of graphics:confused:
that doesnt mean that its bettter.

Ubuntu can run on any useless pc lying around your house very well.
While windows vista requires a full 5GB for installation.:twisted:

Its gonna make your PC slow.](*,)


We should spread the word of ubuntu over internet i think.
Ubuntu Vs Vista
Ubuntu: 10
Vista: 0:mrgreen:

Hear Hear!!!=D>

As I found out six days ago when I received my free Ubuntu CD and installed it on a PC that is 5 years old which stopped working about 3 years ago ever since I downloaded the Windows Service Pack II and I lost the whole computer - it never started the samem kept startin gin safe mode etc...I was sick of it and put it in the closet and never thouhgt of it again until 6 days ago and now I am surfing the Ubuntu forums and the computer is working like a powerful machine - what white man magic is this???:cool:

Keep up the good works guys at Ubuntu and may Open Source Rule the World One Day - mhahahahahahah!!!!O:)

[eccentricity]

Wow, Windows Vista doesn't really look like it does anything different than one can do on Ubuntu. If you want all the fancy display crap, just install xgl+compiz. Really, it looks like they ripped off Window Blinds... because I have had my desktop on Windows look exactly like the pics on the Vista website. My Ubuntu desktop with xgl+compiz is better than that stuff anyways (IMO).

I went with what you have said and have seen mentioned a few other places. Xgl+compiz. I searched synaptic and these were the files (including dependancies) that were selected.


"compiz (version 0.0.2-4ubuntu2) will be installed
compiz-gnome (version 0.0.2-4ubuntu2) will be installed
libglitz-glx1 (version 0.5.3-0ubuntu2) will be installed
libglitz1 (version 0.5.3-0ubuntu2) will be installed
libxcomposite1 (version 1:0.2.2.2-0ubuntu2) will be installed
xserver-xgl (version 7.0.0-0ubuntu4) will be installe"

Is this all that I need for the accelerated desktop? How will I know that it is working? I already have the NVIDIA splash screen during boot.

When should I reboot after installing software through synaptic...or do you ever have to (still stuck in windows thinking mode)? Thanks

-Ryan

[swaaye]

It amazes me how closed-minded and out of touch some computer users are. I imagine it's part and parcel of the Linux rebel mentality, and the whole open-source free app craze. The rebellious nature and feeling of independence that comes with it, and the whole love-of-the-underdog mindset.

Many of you really need to examine just how the typical computer user uses their computer before you make grand all-encompassing claims about how Windows sucks.

A few observations from working with said non-saavy computer users in home/work enviros:
-I absolutely guarantee that they do not want to load up a console. Ever. If you're lucky they won't laugh in your face and bitch about the old DOS days.
-They want to be able to go to Walmart/Best Buy/Officemax and buy software and install it with zero issues. Things just need to work flawlessly.
-They want to be able to buy hardware and have it work immediately out of the box. More flawlessness.
-No issues with web browsing apps or plugins.
-No future compatibility problems from new hardware/software/fads. This means that hacks to get current apps working are useless. The OS must be future-proof for the most part. If not, there must be a "one-click-fix".

The Linux world is far too fragmented. All of the distros basically need software customized to work with each, and it doesn't matter how slight those changes are. Any incompatibility is unacceptable for the majority. It's a fundamental compatibility nightmare.

Hardware support is horrible unless the drivers are already included. It's an unacceptable, ridiculous nightmare to install drivers in Linux 99% of the time. In Windows it's typically a simple .EXE package. You run it, it installs with instructions if necessary, you reboot, you're done. That is like the polar opposite of the vast majority of hardware setup situations in Linux.

What's wrong with open-source you say? Well, I'm glad you asked lol. Can you say "zero accountability"? That's the fundamental flaw right there. No one will get fired if it doesn't work, or if it hoses a computer. No one is accountable for its functionality on any level more than forum post pleas and complaints. And those are inevitable because there is not QA or validation on any decent scale in the Linux world. There's no money to set up such a testing environment. This is one angle at which Microsoft has an undeniable and monstrous edge.

Linux will NEVER catch on unless it is completely interoperable with Windows hardware and software. It absolutely must work with everything the user wants or that user will go back to the Windows that came with his/her computer. The learning curve must be reduced to a flat learning plane lol. Linux is just not designed to penetrate the computer market en masse.

Don't believe me? I don't see why not because it's historically obvious. Linux, Mac, and Windows have been around together for nearly 2 decades now and guess who's still on top. It doesn't appear to be changing notably either.

I myself constantly keep an eye on everything going on in the puter world, cuz it's my profession and my passion. I'd love to see Windows and Mac OS challeneged by something fresh. I constantly try out new software to keep my mind open. But, there are realities to deal with here, and the vast majority of people are not remotely like us enthusiasts.

Linux may be the metaphorical putty of the computer world, a literal definition of flexibility, security, and power. But, somebody forgot to make it infinitely usable in the process. It has a long, long way to go yet.

[galileon]

lol :roll:

[aysiu]

It amazes me how closed-minded and out of touch some computer users are. Just what I thought after having read your post.

Same BS that's been spouted and refuted here hundreds of times. You can read all the threads here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).

[darrenm]

It amazes me how closed-minded and out of touch some computer users are. I imagine it's part and parcel of the Linux rebel mentality, and the whole open-source free app craze. The rebellious nature and feeling of independence that comes with it, and the whole love-of-the-underdog mindset.

Simply had to reply to this one. For the record I'm a support sysadmin supporting both windows users for workstations and linux/unix servers.

Many of you really need to examine just how the typical computer user uses their computer before you make grand all-encompassing claims about how Windows sucks.

A few observations from working with said non-saavy computer users in home/work enviros:
-I absolutely guarantee that they do not want to load up a console. Ever. If you're lucky they won't laugh in your face and bitch about the old DOS days. 100% with you there.
-They want to be able to go to Walmart/Best Buy/Officemax and buy software and install it with zero issues. Things just need to work flawlessly.
Again I'm right with you. Its a pity there are no operating system / software combinations that do this though. People go to these places buying software hoping for it to work but it rarely works flawlessly on any windows machine.
-They want to be able to buy hardware and have it work immediately out of the box. More flawlessness.
Again they do. Again it never works that way. Anything USB has historically been a nightmare for low-average users to set up on Windows. The old installing the drivers before plugging in the device springs to mind. And if you have already plugged in the device its back to editing registry entries taking out the HWID's for deteced devices. I think any user would rather be on the command line than in regedit.
-No issues with web browsing apps or plugins.
Yup this is true. I don't know which ones on Ubuntu/Linux you're referring to though?
-No future compatibility problems from new hardware/software/fads. This means that hacks to get current apps working are useless. The OS must be future-proof for the most part. If not, there must be a "one-click-fix".
I'm not really sure what you mean by this.

The Linux world is far too fragmented. All of the distros basically need software customized to work with each,
not really anymore. apt with debs solve all dependency problems without you ever having to know about it. Now that Ubuntu is by far and away the top distro it will simply be whether you run dapper, edgy or frantic

and it doesn't matter how slight those changes are. Any incompatibility is unacceptable for the majority. It's a fundamental compatibility nightmare.

Hardware support is horrible unless the drivers are already included. It's an unacceptable, ridiculous nightmare to install drivers in Linux 99% of the time.
You are not really being serious with that are you? Use a modern distro like Ubuntu and read back what you just wrote. To install my ATi drivers I add a repository in Synaptic (no nasty command line) and tick ubuntu-fglrx-386. My drivers are then installed. All other drivers are built-in such as my Epson stylus c20UX USB GDI winprinter that needs 4 clicks to install instead of searching epson.com for the drivers then following the nightmare of an install procedure. Also my ethernet drivers are built in which is a bonus considering if I install Windows I can't actually get on the internet in the first place to download them. Drivers in Windows is an unacceptable, ridiculous nightmare. Drivers in Ubuntu is a breath of fresh air. I haven't had to get anything really obscure installed though.
In Windows it's typically a simple .EXE package. You run it, it installs with instructions if necessary, you reboot, you're done.
Oh noooo you don't. Things like Intel chipset drivers etc then yes. Peripheral drivers and the like definately not.
That is like the polar opposite of the vast majority of hardware setup situations in Linux.
Yes thats correct. Windows hardware setup takes ages and rarely goes to plan. I hardly have to do anything in Ubuntu.

What's wrong with open-source you say? Well, I'm glad you asked lol. Can you say "zero accountability"? That's the fundamental flaw right there.
No such thing as zero accountability. In fact theres much more accountability than closed source. If a bug in Windows screws my partition tables and loses all my old photos then how will I or anyone else know whether it was some windows developer forgot to put a . in somewhere or if I had a duff HDD? OSS is held up to scrutiny by developers all over the world just itching to find problems in other peoples code.
No one will get fired if it doesn't work, or if it hoses a computer. No one is accountable for its functionality on any level more than forum post pleas and complaints.
Your arguments get more and more ridiculous
And those are inevitable because there is not QA or validation on any decent scale in the Linux world. There's no money to set up such a testing environment. This is one angle at which Microsoft has an undeniable and monstrous edge.

Linux will NEVER catch on unless it is completely interoperable with Windows hardware and software.
Seems to be doing fine at the moment.
It absolutely must work with everything the user wants or that user will go back to the Windows that came with his/her computer. The learning curve must be reduced to a flat learning plane lol. Linux is just not designed to penetrate the computer market en masse.

Don't believe me? I don't see why not because it's historically obvious. Linux, Mac, and Windows have been around together for nearly 2 decades now and guess who's still on top. It doesn't appear to be changing notably either.
Yes it does. Come back to this same thread in 2 years time.

I myself constantly keep an eye on everything going on in the puter world, cuz it's my profession and my passion.
Your passion seems to warp your sense of reality.
I'd love to see Windows and Mac OS challeneged by something fresh. I constantly try out new software to keep my mind open. But, there are realities to deal with here, and the vast majority of people are not remotely like us enthusiasts.

Linux may be the metaphorical putty of the computer world, a literal definition of flexibility, security, and power. But, somebody forgot to make it infinitely usable in the process. It has a long, long way to go yet.
I actually think its right on the verge of breaking into a lot of markets. You seem to think one small power-user blinkered demographic is the whole computer using world.

[jocheem67]

Well, I think that in order to use and like linux, you must be a hobbyist. It takes time to master ubuntu, and only suitable for the ones who actually wanna learn something ( with all trial and error involved ).
Then again, I was in the same process when computers really got to me back in 99 with ofcourse win 98. Before that it was using win3.11 and absolutely not knowing what I was doing.

The good thing is that there are a lot of computer-hobbyists in the world and they will more and more embrace linux, as it is fun to fool around with the command-line and be amazed by some of the software ( mplayer/mencoder ! ).
Linux will grow...

Eventually manufacturers will port their software more and more.

I give it 5 more years..

[Monsuco]

Well, look, the only reason Windows does better is due to OEMs. Linux can't carry support for everything out of the box and can't support all hardware. If OEMs would preinstall Ubuntu, then you would have no hardware troubles. But even then, linux does pretty well. Compair the installations:

Ubuntu
Download CD
Boot from CD and check hardware
Click install and start installing, you can browse the web, write documents, or other stuff while you wait
Reboot
You have a useable system now, but first lets go get updates:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
Now you are fully up to date, (you may have to reboot once) but if you want MP3, Java, Flash, NVidia, ATI, Real, Quicktime, WMA/WMV, or anything like that, then download Automatix and install anything you want
Fine tune anything that isn't working with the wiki

Windows
Buy a CD
Boot from the CD and start the installer, you won't know if your hardware will work, so you are really gambling
Install the OS, though you can't really do anything useful while installing your OS
Reboot
Install drivers for anything that wont work, you will probably have to reboot.
Go to Microsoft's website and download Microsoft Update, replacment to windows update, you may need to reboot.
Install SP1
you will probably reboot several times
Install SP2, you will probably reboot several times
Install drivers and driver updates, rebooting of course
Install any aditional updates rebooting of course.
buy office
Install office and reboot
Install office updates (you will need the CD) and reboot
buyAntivirus software
Install it and reboot
subscribe to AV software
update defenitions
buy firewall
install firewall
reboot
Set up firewall, dealing with various annoyances
Buy antispyware software, as well as download
Install all of it and reboot as needed
Download Real, install and reboot
Download Adobe Reader, install and reboot
Download Flash install and reboot.
Download Quicktime, install and reboot
Download Java, install and reboot
Download Firefox, install and reboot.

Ok, here's maintanance for each OS;

Ubuntu
Type:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

Windows
Download updates from MS Website, deal with WGA and whatever the hell it does to invade privacy,
reboot
Download updates to office, and reboot
Download the latest Firefox and install
download latest drivers and install
reboot
download Real updates and install
reboot
download latest Quicktime, install reboot
download latest Java, install reboot
download latest Adobe Reader, install and reboot
download patches for all of your other stuff, install and reboot
reboot into safe mode
Do an antivirus scan and clean out infections with removal tool
Do an antispyware scan imunize, and clean infections
Reboot
Do a rootkit check
Run msconfig to get rid of crap that has set itself to run at startup
Reboot
Defrag disk
(If your version of Windows is obsolete, you must buy a new copy to get updates that are from this side of the mullenium)

How about installing software:

Ubuntu
Do:
sudo apt-get install (package) or use Synaptic

If you have a .deb package simply cd into the directory and do
sudo dpkg -i (package.deb)

Windows
Find package on internet and hope what you have found is the real thing and not spyware pretending to be what you want (or more likely, buy package)
Double click on program
Hit next
Agree to sacrifice first child to sun god according to terms outlined in the EULA
Hit next
Specify the installation location (C:\Program Files\Program), though it doesn't matter where you pick, it will put crap all over your C: partion, then hit next
Tell program that you do not want Yahoo toolbar, weatherbug, AOL Browser, Wild Tangent, a demo of a different product, viewpoint, or any other crap installed (though parts of the unwanted software will show up anyways) then hit next,
Install unwanted program (could be DirectX, GTK, Java, C++ Runtime, MDAC, JET, MSXML, Flash, Shockwave, Quicktime, WinpCap, or some other program) needed by app to function, then hit next
Select desired settings (which may be ignored) then hit next
Hit finish
Reboot
Notice that tray icon has annoyingly appeared so use msconfig to get rid of startup stuff
Use add/remove programs to remove stuff you told installer not to install
Run program
Notice that once spash screen goes away a DLL file is screwed up
Talk to computer using "colorful" words
slam stapler through CD drive (D: )
Reboot

Which is easier, Ubuntu or Windows.

[darrenm]

Ok, here's maintanance for each OS;

Ubuntu
Type:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

lol. however, this isn't really neccessary as ubuntu will check once a day for you anyway and you just put your password in to let it update for you :D

[Frak]

Is it important? I don't know why this thread is so popular that much... Some moderators should lock it, becuase it doesn't have any use at all.
This thread does have use, we have examined the differences in ubuntu-Linux and Vista-Windows, swaying people from one group to the other, like ubuntu is free but comes with community support not commercial support(presonally I like talking to humans better)vice-versa with Vista; Ubuntu installs on just about anything, Vista only on high-end; pros and cons helped this forum so people could choose either one they liked, or are devoted to.

[galileon]

i love these ones!!!!!! :p :D :o :KS :KS



Agree to sacrifice first child to sun god according to terms outlined in the EULA


Tell program that you do not want Yahoo toolbar, weatherbug, AOL Browser, Wild Tangent, a demo of a different product, viewpoint, or any other crap installed (though parts of the unwanted software will show up anyways) then hit next,


Use add/remove programs to remove stuff you told installer not to install
Run program
Notice that once spash screen goes away a DLL file is screwed up

[motin]

If 80% of all computer users are unable to comprehend that iTunes won't work on Linux because Apple won't port it, certainly. Ubuntu isn't magic and if they can't comprehend that fact then I would be quite happy to say that perhaps it isn't the operating system for them.

Why not make it? WINE 2.0 would allow iTunes too.

So far, you've mentioned iTunes and games. Some vital software, indeed.

You have a problem with that? :) Why dont you reread all the posts out there about what they miss in Ubuntu?

Trying to use hardware supported by Windows? What the hell does HP support if not Windows?

Exactly.

Whatever, that's beside the point. I'm just saying that Windows is not "a great OS" as you insist.

Well, reread the thread again. XP and Vista are not great OS's in general, but they are the OS's for the dummies, which makes them think it is great - sadly.

Ubuntu any flavor > any windows.

Why?

It's free.

Case closed.


You may all cease posting to this thread now. :)

Whoa... That'll do for some fanatics, but have you never heard about "value"?

It amazes me how closed-minded and out of touch some computer users are. I imagine it's part and parcel of the Linux rebel mentality, and the whole open-source free app craze. The rebellious nature and feeling of independence that comes with it, and the whole love-of-the-underdog mindset.

Many of you really need to examine just how the typical computer user uses their computer before you make grand all-encompassing claims about how Windows sucks.

A few observations from working with said non-saavy computer users in home/work enviros:
-I absolutely guarantee that they do not want to load up a console. Ever. If you're lucky they won't laugh in your face and bitch about the old DOS days.
-They want to be able to go to Walmart/Best Buy/Officemax and buy software and install it with zero issues. Things just need to work flawlessly.
-They want to be able to buy hardware and have it work immediately out of the box. More flawlessness.
-No issues with web browsing apps or plugins.
-No future compatibility problems from new hardware/software/fads. This means that hacks to get current apps working are useless. The OS must be future-proof for the most part. If not, there must be a "one-click-fix".

The Linux world is far too fragmented. All of the distros basically need software customized to work with each, and it doesn't matter how slight those changes are. Any incompatibility is unacceptable for the majority. It's a fundamental compatibility nightmare.

Hardware support is horrible unless the drivers are already included. It's an unacceptable, ridiculous nightmare to install drivers in Linux 99% of the time. In Windows it's typically a simple .EXE package. You run it, it installs with instructions if necessary, you reboot, you're done. That is like the polar opposite of the vast majority of hardware setup situations in Linux.

What's wrong with open-source you say? Well, I'm glad you asked lol. Can you say "zero accountability"? That's the fundamental flaw right there. No one will get fired if it doesn't work, or if it hoses a computer. No one is accountable for its functionality on any level more than forum post pleas and complaints. And those are inevitable because there is not QA or validation on any decent scale in the Linux world. There's no money to set up such a testing environment. This is one angle at which Microsoft has an undeniable and monstrous edge.

Linux will NEVER catch on unless it is completely interoperable with Windows hardware and software. It absolutely must work with everything the user wants or that user will go back to the Windows that came with his/her computer. The learning curve must be reduced to a flat learning plane lol. Linux is just not designed to penetrate the computer market en masse.

Don't believe me? I don't see why not because it's historically obvious. Linux, Mac, and Windows have been around together for nearly 2 decades now and guess who's still on top. It doesn't appear to be changing notably either.

I myself constantly keep an eye on everything going on in the puter world, cuz it's my profession and my passion. I'd love to see Windows and Mac OS challeneged by something fresh. I constantly try out new software to keep my mind open. But, there are realities to deal with here, and the vast majority of people are not remotely like us enthusiasts.

Linux may be the metaphorical putty of the computer world, a literal definition of flexibility, security, and power. But, somebody forgot to make it infinitely usable in the process. It has a long, long way to go yet.

Glad you posted, as the same mentality made me start this thread for the first time! I wanted for the close-minded to widen their perspectives a bit. Although you are taking it a bit far, just like darrenm comments...

Just what I thought after having read your post.

Same BS that's been spouted and refuted here hundreds of times. You can read all the threads here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=219243).

That's my point. Ubuntu is not there yet.

Simply had to reply to this one. For the record I'm a support sysadmin supporting both windows users for workstations and linux/unix servers.

100% with you there.

Again I'm right with you. Its a pity there are no operating system / software combinations that do this though. People go to these places buying software hoping for it to work but it rarely works flawlessly on any windows machine.

Again they do. Again it never works that way. Anything USB has historically been a nightmare for low-average users to set up on Windows. The old installing the drivers before plugging in the device springs to mind. And if you have already plugged in the device its back to editing registry entries taking out the HWID's for deteced devices. I think any user would rather be on the command line than in regedit.

Yup this is true. I don't know which ones on Ubuntu/Linux you're referring to though?

I'm not really sure what you mean by this.


not really anymore. apt with debs solve all dependency problems without you ever having to know about it. Now that Ubuntu is by far and away the top distro it will simply be whether you run dapper, edgy or frantic


You are not really being serious with that are you? Use a modern distro like Ubuntu and read back what you just wrote. To install my ATi drivers I add a repository in Synaptic (no nasty command line) and tick ubuntu-fglrx-386. My drivers are then installed. All other drivers are built-in such as my Epson stylus c20UX USB GDI winprinter that needs 4 clicks to install instead of searching epson.com for the drivers then following the nightmare of an install procedure. Also my ethernet drivers are built in which is a bonus considering if I install Windows I can't actually get on the internet in the first place to download them. Drivers in Windows is an unacceptable, ridiculous nightmare. Drivers in Ubuntu is a breath of fresh air. I haven't had to get anything really obscure installed though.

Oh noooo you don't. Things like Intel chipset drivers etc then yes. Peripheral drivers and the like definately not.

Yes thats correct. Windows hardware setup takes ages and rarely goes to plan. I hardly have to do anything in Ubuntu.


No such thing as zero accountability. In fact theres much more accountability than closed source. If a bug in Windows screws my partition tables and loses all my old photos then how will I or anyone else know whether it was some windows developer forgot to put a . in somewhere or if I had a duff HDD? OSS is held up to scrutiny by developers all over the world just itching to find problems in other peoples code.

Your arguments get more and more ridiculous

Seems to be doing fine at the moment.

Yes it does. Come back to this same thread in 2 years time.


Your passion seems to warp your sense of reality.

I actually think its right on the verge of breaking into a lot of markets. You seem to think one small power-user blinkered demographic is the whole computer using world.

Thanks for writing the reply for me :)

Well, I think that in order to use and like linux, you must be a hobbyist. It takes time to master ubuntu, and only suitable for the ones who actually wanna learn something ( with all trial and error involved ).
Then again, I was in the same process when computers really got to me back in 99 with ofcourse win 98. Before that it was using win3.11 and absolutely not knowing what I was doing.

The good thing is that there are a lot of computer-hobbyists in the world and they will more and more embrace linux, as it is fun to fool around with the command-line and be amazed by some of the software ( mplayer/mencoder ! ).
Linux will grow...

Eventually manufacturers will port their software more and more.

I give it 5 more years..

I'll give it 2-3 (before Vista+1). Otherwise I agree.

Well, look, the only reason Windows does better is due to OEMs. Linux can't carry support for everything out of the box and can't support all hardware. If OEMs would preinstall Ubuntu, then you would have no hardware troubles. But even then, linux does pretty well. Compair the installations:

Ubuntu
Download CD
Boot from CD and check hardware
Click install and start installing, you can browse the web, write documents, or other stuff while you wait
Reboot
You have a useable system now, but first lets go get updates:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade
Now you are fully up to date, (you may have to reboot once) but if you want MP3, Java, Flash, NVidia, ATI, Real, Quicktime, WMA/WMV, or anything like that, then download Automatix and install anything you want
Fine tune anything that isn't working with the wiki

Windows
Buy a CD
Boot from the CD and start the installer, you won't know if your hardware will work, so you are really gambling
Install the OS, though you can't really do anything useful while installing your OS
Reboot
Install drivers for anything that wont work, you will probably have to reboot.
Go to Microsoft's website and download Microsoft Update, replacment to windows update, you may need to reboot.
Install SP1
you will probably reboot several times
Install SP2, you will probably reboot several times
Install drivers and driver updates, rebooting of course
Install any aditional updates rebooting of course.
buy office
Install office and reboot
Install office updates (you will need the CD) and reboot
buyAntivirus software
Install it and reboot
subscribe to AV software
update defenitions
buy firewall
install firewall
reboot
Set up firewall, dealing with various annoyances
Buy antispyware software, as well as download
Install all of it and reboot as needed
Download Real, install and reboot
Download Adobe Reader, install and reboot
Download Flash install and reboot.
Download Quicktime, install and reboot
Download Java, install and reboot
Download Firefox, install and reboot.

Ok, here's maintanance for each OS;

Ubuntu
Type:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get dist-upgrade

Windows
Download updates from MS Website, deal with WGA and whatever the hell it does to invade privacy,
reboot
Download updates to office, and reboot
Download the latest Firefox and install
download latest drivers and install
reboot
download Real updates and install
reboot
download latest Quicktime, install reboot
download latest Java, install reboot
download latest Adobe Reader, install and reboot
download patches for all of your other stuff, install and reboot
reboot into safe mode
Do an antivirus scan and clean out infections with removal tool
Do an antispyware scan imunize, and clean infections
Reboot
Do a rootkit check
Run msconfig to get rid of crap that has set itself to run at startup
Reboot
Defrag disk
(If your version of Windows is obsolete, you must buy a new copy to get updates that are from this side of the mullenium)

How about installing software:

Ubuntu
Do:
sudo apt-get install (package) or use Synaptic

If you have a .deb package simply cd into the directory and do
sudo dpkg -i (package.deb)

Windows
Find package on internet and hope what you have found is the real thing and not spyware pretending to be what you want (or more likely, buy package)
Double click on program
Hit next
Agree to sacrifice first child to sun god according to terms outlined in the EULA
Hit next
Specify the installation location (C:\Program Files\Program), though it doesn't matter where you pick, it will put crap all over your C: partion, then hit next
Tell program that you do not want Yahoo toolbar, weatherbug, AOL Browser, Wild Tangent, a demo of a different product, viewpoint, or any other crap installed (though parts of the unwanted software will show up anyways) then hit next,
Install unwanted program (could be DirectX, GTK, Java, C++ Runtime, MDAC, JET, MSXML, Flash, Shockwave, Quicktime, WinpCap, or some other program) needed by app to function, then hit next
Select desired settings (which may be ignored) then hit next
Hit finish
Reboot
Notice that tray icon has annoyingly appeared so use msconfig to get rid of startup stuff
Use add/remove programs to remove stuff you told installer not to install
Run program
Notice that once spash screen goes away a DLL file is screwed up
Talk to computer using "colorful" words
slam stapler through CD drive (D: )
Reboot

Which is easier, Ubuntu or Windows.

lol. however, this isn't really neccessary as ubuntu will check once a day for you anyway and you just put your password in to let it update for you :D

Well, if you take away half of the reboots from there, and do not contradict yourself by first downloading MS Update and then going to the websites for MS and office updates - then it is a GREAT presentation of preXP and XP. Have you accounted for Vista yet though? Really hard to make comparisons to 4,5 year old software.One other thing you missed as well - What do you have to do the times an Ubuntu-problem have your network/sound or whatever broken for apparently no reason? Or when you want to watch youtube.com with actual sound?

[motin]

I don't really think that Ubuntu should even be placed as a competitor to vista. Ubuntu is it's own thing, totally different animal. But I can assure you, as time moves on and more people make it easier to set things up, Linux in general will start taking it's place on desktops and laptops all over the world. Nobody wants to buy a car they have to rebuild every time they get to a red light, but it's getting better all the time. I give it two years and you will see a massive change. Heck, in the last two years look at what has happened!

Great point!

Is it important? I don't know why this thread is so popular that much... Some moderators should lock it, becuase it doesn't have any use at all.

It highlights the different aspects of the OSs to help people choose.

This thread does have use, we have examined the differences in ubuntu-Linux and Vista-Windows, swaying people from one group to the other, like ubuntu is free but comes with community support not commercial support(presonally I like talking to humans better)vice-versa with Vista; Ubuntu installs on just about anything, Vista only on high-end; pros and cons helped this forum so people could choose either one they liked, or are devoted to.

Excactly... Didnt read first :)

[jan]

A poll on this topic would be interesting.

[welshboy]

The reason I would never go to windows Vista.

http://farm.tucows.com/images/2006/06/data_bsod.gif

heh heh heh

welshboy ;)

[Metacarpal]

I really, seriously doubt that anything is going to be said here that hasn't been hashed and rehashed in a million other linux-vs-windows threads on boards across the net. It always turns into "Windows version X has this" - "Oh yeah? Linux version Y has this!" It's silly.

You want to know why it's silly? Because at the end of the day, what this thread is about is the debate over whether Linux should remain true to its techie roots, or get (maybe over-)simplified to appeal to Windows users. Or maybe you're just wallowing in feature-envy on one side or the other.

Go do something productive. Learn to code and make new features for whatever OS you prefer. Go make the software world a better place, and let this thread die in peace.

[zgornel]

The answer is simple. Not Vista, not Ubuntu but Linux. For me it's starting to be more a philosophical choice. I'm not stating my reasons. Plus I can do all the things I do in Windows (Office, Matlab, hdl programming, C/C++/C#/ASM). Exceptional cases require VMWare but it's another story.

[ghowells]

What's wrong with open-source you say? Well, I'm glad you asked lol. Can you say "zero accountability"? That's the fundamental flaw right there. No one will get fired if it doesn't work, or if it hoses a computer. No one is accountable for its functionality on any level more than forum post pleas and complaints. And those are inevitable because there is not QA or validation on any decent scale in the Linux world. There's no money to set up such a testing environment. This is one angle at which Microsoft has an undeniable and monstrous edge.

You have many valid points in your post however this is not one of them. You should read a paper by Eric S. Raymond called "The Catedral and the Bazaar (http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/)" It is an anthropologica analasis of the world of Open Source development and its differences to the closed-source world. It suggests that the intense peer review of Open Source develpment (if there is a bug another developer can fix it and mail a patch in the code to the developer or release a patch themselves) allows for better QA than the closed-source controlled project group model where the binary is released to the public and they are reliant on vague descriptions of bugs from users who have no clue how the developers have implemented certain features and can, consequently, only guess about possible fixes.

[mssever]

Why not make it? WINE 2.0 would allow iTunes too.
Don't set too many hopes on wine, especially since wine 2.0 is a long way off. According to the official (http://www.winehq.com) website, the current version is 0.9.21. It's important to note that the first release of wine was more than ten years ago (closer to 15, I believe), and it isn't even at version 1 yet. Wine 2.0 is purely wishful thinking.

Being able to run common apps in Linux will require developers to make Linux software. There really isn't any way around this, other than using emulation.

[galileon]

lol, ive been crawling the net looking for wine 2.0 since they mentioned it here, and all i got was 0.9.21...

[swaaye]

Simply had to reply to this one. For the record I'm a support sysadmin supporting both windows users for workstations and linux/unix servers.

Thank you for your logical, thought out response. I'm surprised I didn't get more flamed by my message lol.

But, I do stick by what I've said. Linux isn't anywhere near breaking into the mass market, at least not in the US and other non-3rd world countries where the simplicity and popularity of a most user-friendly (user robust?) OS like Windows is dominant. The vast majority have barely even heard of Linux and don't know what a distro even is.

And no, installing drivers in Windows is not harder than Linux. I can't believe you even said that. I know what you mean by the install drivers first on USB thing, but the only time I can recall that backfiring on me was with a scanner several years ago. And if a user messes that up, well, it was in the instructions, both in the manual and the driver install warning messages usually!

Drivers safer in Linux you say. Well, if you fubar your display driver in Linux you can lose your GUI. What does helpless-user do then? Huh? Heh. What about people who need a driver not in a repository? You think my parents/bosses/most friends are going to be compiling source for some backwater homebrew driver? I think that's rather unlikely. Granted some really old hardware has no XP drivers, but that is actually very rare. And that is really the only time I can see XP being a problem. On most old machines XP just has drivers for everything already.

Problems so far (after about a week of messing with latest Ubuntu):
-Ubuntu requires Xorg.conf hacks to run at the native res on a Dell 24" 1920x1200 screen with the default NV driver (6800 GT).
-NTFS access still spotty. Very inconvenient for people trying to convert.
-Mounting drives a nightmare in some cases.
-Ubuntu unable to read my real Dreamweaver CDROM. It sees the files, but can't open them, saying it has a privileges problem. All other CDs seem to work fine.
-Macromedia Flash install howto doesn't work.
-Wine is something that should come preinstalled. Not that it works on most apps though. eBay Turbolister is something we need at work here and that isn't happening at all.
-We have a crusty laptop here, a Winbook XLi Pentium II. Works fine in every Windows OS, but Linux spazzes out over some IRQ conflict and either freezes or runs very, very slow. Why hasn't that been worked around? There's even a howto that shows up on top of Google for Redhat 7.1 to get around it. Requires recompiling the kernel. Don't have to do that for XP often, do ya?
-I'm glad to see that the Linux community (Ubuntu at least) finally has a somewhat acceptable implementation of WPA. Still had to search out a package after install though. It's 2006. Wireless should be robust and functional now.

I have one desktop machine at work running Ubuntu. A sort of test of the waters. The owner uses it to browse web and email. Perfect for that because Ubuntu comes with a setup ready to go for that limited-scope set of tasks. I did have to get Thunderbird, and Acroread cuz the PDF readers included don't work well at all.

I'm posting from Ubuntu Dapper right now, btw. I put it on my laptop to learn about it more. Dual booting with XP Home that came with the machine. It's am impressive Linux distro that works out-of-the-box for the most part. It is definitely the most robust Linux package put together so far. Undeniably. It usually "just works" immediately on boot. At least on the surface and if you don't mess with some things.

I realize that some of it would be solved overnight if companies started to natively support Linux. But which distro should they work with? Oh, there are ~30 you say. Well that is a barrier to entry. Splintering your user base never works well. Just ask Sega.

Linux has a long ways to go. But, Linux definitely is an impressive OS for the power user. Wrong group to target tho if you want to get the majority of people on it though.

[aysiu]

I really wish people would stop equating Ubuntu with Linux. A lot of problems Ubuntu has are not problems on other distributions.

These you cited, for example:
Problems so far (after about a week of messing with latest Ubuntu):
-NTFS access still spotty. Very inconvenient for people trying to convert.
-Mounting drives a nightmare in some cases.
-Macromedia Flash install howto doesn't work. None of these are problems in Mepis, for example.

-We have a crusty laptop here, a Winbook XLi Pentium II. Works fine in every Windows OS, but Linux spazzes out over some IRQ conflict and either freezes or runs very, very slow. Why hasn't that been worked around? There's even a howto that shows up on top of Google for Redhat 7.1 to get around it. Requires recompiling the kernel. Don't have to do that for XP often, do ya? And I have a crusty old desktop, an eMachines. Works fine in every Linux OS I've tried on it, but Windows ME and Windows XP cannot recognize the proper screen resolution or the ethernet card. Why hasn't that been worked around?

For every anecdote you spout about a Linux distro not recognizing something, there's another anecdote someone else can spout about Windows not recognizing something (look at the middle links in my signature, for example).

All of this is pointless. You're still believing the Linux Desktop Myth (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth).

Preinstallation is the only answer. If it weren't, Dell would give you a blank computer and a Windows CD. As it is now, they give you a preinstalled, preconfigured Windows computer with either a restore disk or Windows XP and then separate CDs for all the necessary drivers Windows doesn't have and then a separate CD for DVD playback (which Windows also doesn't have).

[swaaye]

I really wish people would stop equating Ubuntu with Linux. A lot of problems Ubuntu has are not problems on other distributions.

These you cited, for example: None of these are problems in Mepis, for example.
Good point. However, that is as much a flaw with the Linux philosophy as it is with me referring to Ubuntu=Linux. It's a fragmented user-base. Windows could be seen as somewhat similar, with the older versions still out there. But, most software will work across the majority of Windows releases, at least newer than 3.x. Only now, after ~8 yrs, has Win9x started to become really incompatible with things (hardware mostly).


And I have a crusty old desktop, an eMachines. Works fine in every Linux OS I've tried on it, but Windows ME and Windows XP cannot recognize the proper screen resolution or the ethernet card. Why hasn't that been worked around?

In my experience, display resolution problems crop up when you have a widescreen notebook. Of course, a lack of drivers can also be an issue. But with widescreens I usually solve that with Powerstrip by adding the custom resolution. Newer hardware drivers usually do it for me though.

Surprised on the ethernet card though. It must be a strange one, or not old enough for XP to have built-in drivers.


For every anecdote you spout about a Linux distro not recognizing something, there's another anecdote someone else can spout about Windows not recognizing something (look at the middle links in my signature, for example).

All of this is pointless. You're still believing the Linux Desktop Myth (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth).

Preinstallation is the only answer. If it weren't, Dell would give you a blank computer and a Windows CD. As it is now, they give you a preinstalled, preconfigured Windows computer with either a restore disk or Windows XP and then separate CDs for all the necessary drivers Windows doesn't have and then a separate CD for DVD playback (which Windows also doesn't have).


That's a good point. A Dell PC with Windows comes setup up perfectly for its hardware. Preinstallation can solve all of the problems with hardware. But software apps will still be a problem unless there is a solidified Linux world under one or two distros with serious commercial software house support.

I suppose you could say that preinstallation with Windows is what has made Windows so flexible. All the drivers out there are built with OEMs in mind. Why? Cuz that's where the money really is for the hardware companies. So you end up with zillions of drivers available, and they usually get along with each other. So, in the end, it's not hard to home-build a PC cuz drivers are everywhere, built for all these preinstallations by OEMs. That really is where the Windows monopoly stemmed from. OEM-built PCs, not home-builts.

That would really help Linux establish hardware support.

Fascinating article. I'll read it through.

[galileon]

dude, get yourself a launchpad.net account, and contribute there - forum threads are worthless for these kinds of suggestions


btw ntfs access is spotless if you run the latest ntfs drivers from sourceforge.net - and i cant think of a dummy/new user who bought a computer with linux who would like to mount an ntfs partition anyway - someone trying out linux on their XP preinstalled system are no longer newbies, no matter what you want us to believe

about your crusty laptop, i had an ibm thinkpad (64mb ram, 600mhz celeron processor) which was painful to use with the preinstalled windoze mistake edition - vector linux solved my problem - lightweight system, with loads of stuff a typical user needs - and i survived nine months on that laptop in 2005...

about the fragmented userbase, its a natural thing to happen with an open source and (mostly)free-as-in-beer system. efforts are under way to bring them together or as close as can be done - eg installing .tgz and rpm will be as easy under edgy as .debs. get a clue - go to launchpad.net
anyway Sega is a commercial company, linux is a community thing - if companies can make money from it, fine. if it gets accepted by everyone, fine. if it doesnt, i dont think you are losing money over it, so quit whining.

[illegalbuds]

I don't know if this is said in this thread, but if you're using Windows try visiting www.filehippo.com. Download anything you need: K-Lite (for DVD playback), Firefox (browser), ATI/Nvidia drivers, Azureus (torrents), FileZilla (ftp), and so on. All the top software for Windows is there. I dual-boot and barely use Windows though. :-)

[darrenm]

Thank you for your logical, thought out response. I'm surprised I didn't get more flamed by my message lol.

I thought I got a bit too rude TBH ;)

But, I do stick by what I've said. Linux isn't anywhere near breaking into the mass market, at least not in the US and other non-3rd world countries where the simplicity and popularity of a most user-friendly (user robust?) OS like Windows is dominant. The vast majority have barely even heard of Linux and don't know what a distro even is.

Generally I notice a trend of people in the US thinking that more than in the EU/rest of the world, it's possibly because Americans don't have this strange thing that we Brits tend to have which is to love the underdog no matter what. It's called Manchester United Syndrome and means that instantly anyone doing well in anything has to get shot down in flames at any costs. The British tabloids are an example of this. What this all means is that people in the UK are very receptive to Ubuntu / Linux as its something new and exciting. I'm amazed the amount of Windows mudsticks that are suddenly running Ubuntu without any prompting purely because they have seen Xgl/Compiz and are excited by it.

It also seems that people in the US have a patriotic loyalty to Microsoft which also gives them a slightly skewed view of the current mood of the world. Possibly because it seems a little seedy, like some Eastern European Geek-pimp is hacking code in between extorting money from old ladies and pushing crack onto 8 year olds is what makes Linux. It's not really the vast majority over here that haven't heard of Linux. The absolute beginners / grandparents won't have heard of Linux but neither will they know the difference between Windows 98 or Windows XP or even notice if Windows was substituted for Ubuntu.

And no, installing drivers in Windows is not harder than Linux.

Swings and roundabouts. Some are, some aren't. All depends on the hardware.

I can't believe you even said that.

Your experience obviously differs from my own then.

I know what you mean by the install drivers first on USB thing, but the only time I can recall that backfiring on me was with a scanner several years ago.

Epson USB printers for one still do that. They have made the installer slightly better in that you only have to remove it from device manager and refresh the list rather than editing the registry now.

And if a user messes that up, well, it was in the instructions,

The ones you always read when you have your shiney new kit and a hole to plug it into? ;)

both in the manual and the driver install warning messages usually!

Which appear after you have plugged it in?

Drivers safer in Linux you say.

Don't personally remember saying drivers are safer in Linux. However with only 2 mainstream VGA card vendors you either have NVidia drivers or ATi drivers. Both of which work fine in Linux.

Well, if you fubar your display driver in Linux you can lose your GUI.

Which means you have to type in a command line. If your display driver is shafted in Windows you are a little bit more up **** creek with the recovery console being not very helpful.

What does helpless-user do then? Huh? Heh. What about people who need a driver not in a repository?

Search here for *** Error code that appears when X won't run *** on someone elses computer or if they are a bit more adventurous use elinks from the terminal on the computer with the broken display driver (which I can't say I would envisage happening much on Ubuntu >dapper, the worst you get is a unaccelerated driver)

You think my parents/bosses/most friends are going to be compiling source for some backwater homebrew driver?

Don't remember the last time I had to do that. Never had to do it on Windows either but its still not bad for an OS that is forever playing catchup on unreleased hardware specs, firmwares and BIOS' made specifically for Windows and its own idiosyncracies. But yes it is an area that needs improving upon and and won't get any better until Ubuntu gets preinstalled on OEM builds.

I think that's rather unlikely. Granted some really old hardware has no XP drivers, but that is actually very rare. And that is really the only time I can see XP being a problem. On most old machines XP just has drivers for everything already.

Pretty sure Linux wins when talking about old hardware support. HAM radio drivers, ability to run on very low spec hardware etc.

Problems so far (after about a week of messing with latest Ubuntu):
-Ubuntu requires Xorg.conf hacks to run at the native res on a Dell 24" 1920x1200 screen with the default NV driver (6800 GT).

Yes Ubuntu support with non-native resolutions hasn't been great. Hopefully Edgy should address this problem. It really is only 1 line in 1 text file to fix it though.

-NTFS access still spotty. Very inconvenient for people trying to convert.

Not going to use the old "It isn't Ubuntus fault that NTFS is built to not work with other operating systems." here. NTFS read access is perfect. Better than Windows XP IMO, write access is getting there. It's the problems you face when trying to reverse engineer something though.

-Mounting drives a nightmare in some cases.

In what way? Did you use Discs Manager?

-Ubuntu unable to read my real Dreamweaver CDROM. It sees the files, but can't open them, saying it has a privileges problem. All other CDs seem to work fine.
-Macromedia Flash install howto doesn't work.
-Wine is something that should come preinstalled. Not that it works on most apps though. eBay Turbolister is something we need at work here and that isn't happening at all.
-We have a crusty laptop here, a Winbook XLi Pentium II. Works fine in every Windows OS, but Linux spazzes out over some IRQ conflict and either freezes or runs very, very slow. Why hasn't that been worked around? There's even a howto that shows up on top of Google for Redhat 7.1 to get around it. Requires recompiling the kernel. Don't have to do that for XP often, do ya?

Nope, if Windows XP won't run on something then thats it, it flat won't work. Of course it would be nice to have the option of recompiling the kernel in Windows.

-I'm glad to see that the Linux community (Ubuntu at least) finally has a somewhat acceptable implementation of WPA. Still had to search out a package after install though. It's 2006. Wireless should be robust and functional now.

It should be, I agree.

I have one desktop machine at work running Ubuntu. A sort of test of the waters. The owner uses it to browse web and email. Perfect for that because Ubuntu comes with a setup ready to go for that limited-scope set of tasks. I did have to get Thunderbird, and Acroread cuz the PDF readers included don't work well at all.
I'm posting from Ubuntu Dapper right now, btw. I put it on my laptop to learn about it more. Dual booting with XP Home that came with the machine. It's am impressive Linux distro that works out-of-the-box for the most part. It is definitely the most robust Linux package put together so far. Undeniably. It usually "just works" immediately on boot. At least on the surface and if you don't mess with some things.

I realize that some of it would be solved overnight if companies started to natively support Linux. But which distro should they work with? Oh, there are ~30 you say. Well that is a barrier to entry. Splintering your user base never works well. Just ask Sega.

Linux has a long ways to go. But, Linux definitely is an impressive OS for the power user. Wrong group to target tho if you want to get the majority of people on it though.

To me there is only 1 distro that is going to carry on chipping away at Windows desktop share and thats Ubuntu. As Edgy and Edgy+1 come out these little niggly things people cite as their reason for continuing to ignore the problems Windows causes them will disappear, things like Diva, Pitivi etc will be full release versions and there will be absolutely no reason for a non-gamer to run a Windows PC. Of course by that time hopefully the games developers will port to Linux too.

Currently there are 2 groups that would benefit from using Ubuntu. The grannies and the pros. Grannies won't know any different and will click on the firefox icon for web and thunderbird icon for mail whether its got Tellytubbies hills in the background or brown swishes. The Pros will see the awesome power they have under Ubuntu and the exciting future and want to be a part of it. The middle group who have all their dodgy windows-only peripherals plugged into their daisy chain of 12 USB devices that can't stand any change that causes them to have to learn anything new will find Ubuntu scary and will hold out until they can't ignore the sea of change.

I had a Megadrive for ages. I slated SuperNintendos saying they were crap with all my mates. I then bought one with SuperMarioWorld and Zelda, A link to the past. Then all my mates changed over. Then we all forgot Megadrives.

[mssever]

It also seems that people in the US have a patriotic loyalty to Microsoft which also gives them a slightly skewed view of the current mood of the world. Possibly because it seems a little seedy, like some Eastern European Geek-pimp is hacking code in between extorting money from old ladies and pushing crack onto 8 year olds is what makes Linux. It's not really the vast majority over here that haven't heard of Linux. The absolute beginners / grandparents won't have heard of Linux but neither will they know the difference between Windows 98 or Windows XP or even notice if Windows was substituted for Ubuntu.

I don't think it's so much of a patriotic loyalty as it is a reliance on commercial software. After all, the vast majority of tech companies here are American companies--not just MS. When I talk to people about Linux or open source software, they usually wonder what the hidden agenda is. After all, why would anybody just give away software without hoping to make money off of it? What's the catch? I think that a non-commercial software model runs counter to American culture. (I realize that Linux can be commercialized--and that's probably one reason why Red Hat is the dominant distro in the US in organizational environments.)

Also, the ideas of people like Richard Stallman sound to Americans to be a lot like socialism, and in the US, socialism == evil. That's where people like Eric Raymond have a better message for American Audiences.

[Monsuco]

Have any problems with linux other than USB support been listed that wouldn't be thrashed into next week on an OEM box? I guarentee you that Koobox (with Linspire) does well on OEM machines. I know RHL is occasionally sold on machines. Hell, maybe Canoical should sell PCs or work with OEMs. Wal Mart also sells a few Linux PCs. Levono SuSE laptops do well. The few times Linux is allowed on OEM machines it rox.

[darrenm]

I don't think it's so much of a patriotic loyalty as it is a reliance on commercial software. After all, the vast majority of tech companies here are American companies--not just MS. When I talk to people about Linux or open source software, they usually wonder what the hidden agenda is. After all, why would anybody just give away software without hoping to make money off of it? What's the catch? I think that a non-commercial software model runs counter to American culture. (I realize that Linux can be commercialized--and that's probably one reason why Red Hat is the dominant distro in the US in organizational environments.)

Also, the ideas of people like Richard Stallman sound to Americans to be a lot like socialism, and in the US, socialism == evil. That's where people like Eric Raymond have a better message for American Audiences.

Perhaps also why commercial Unix OS's are still popular in the U.S. while the rest of the immature I.T. world is going directly to Linux and bypassing Unix altogether.

[darrenm]

Have any problems with linux other than USB support been listed that wouldn't be thrashed into next week on an OEM box? I guarentee you that Koobox (with Linspire) does well on OEM machines. I know RHL is occasionally sold on machines. Hell, maybe Canoical should sell PCs or work with OEMs. Wal Mart also sells a few Linux PCs. Levono SuSE laptops do well. The few times Linux is allowed on OEM machines it rox.

I have first hand experience of this.

If a large enough OEM decided to sell Ubuntu based PC's tomorrow then you would suddenly find lots of hardware advertising itself as Linux compatible. WiFi chipsets would be developed with Linux in mind.

The OEM I used to work for started selling Lindows PC's then Mandrake 9.2. Back then perhaps Linux wasn't ready for the OEM market. I believe with Ubuntu it now is.

Oh yeah, the Mandrake 9.2 machine we sold rocked. I have a Linux Format review here with it getting 10/10 for everything.

[sharperguy]

I realize that some of it would be solved overnight if companies started to natively support Linux. But which distro should they work with? Oh, there are ~30 you say. Well that is a barrier to entry. Splintering your user base never works well. Just ask Sega.

I dont think that havaing many distro's should be a problem for including drivers. What companies need to do is to open source their drivers, allowing them to be included in the linux kernal by default, meaning that the hardware should work on all distros (unless you take them out for performance).

Hell, maybe Canoical should sell PCs or work with OEMs. Wal Mart also sells a few Linux PCs. Levono SuSE laptops do well. The few times Linux is allowed on OEM machines it rox.

Have you been to system76 (http://www.system76.com)?

[motin]

Don't set too many hopes on wine, especially since wine 2.0 is a long way off. According to the official (http://www.winehq.com) website, the current version is 0.9.21. It's important to note that the first release of wine was more than ten years ago (closer to 15, I believe), and it isn't even at version 1 yet. Wine 2.0 is purely wishful thinking.

You should really read up on the development of WINE. Basically it started out in the beginning of the 90s, but then development has speeded up very rapidly since the release of 0.9 beta. Take a look at what has happened in the last 8 months and you will not be mentioning wishful thinking any longer.

Being able to run common apps in Linux will require developers to make Linux software. There really isn't any way around this, other than using emulation.

Read up here as well. WINE plays a significant role here as well. Instead of porting their whole software, they could make slight modifications to their code so that it is supported by the current WINElib. Look at Google's wonderful photo-app Picasa for example.

I really wish people would stop equating Ubuntu with Linux. A lot of problems Ubuntu has are not problems on other distributions.

These you cited, for example: None of these are problems in Mepis, for example.

And I have a crusty old desktop, an eMachines. Works fine in every Linux OS I've tried on it, but Windows ME and Windows XP cannot recognize the proper screen resolution or the ethernet card. Why hasn't that been worked around?

For every anecdote you spout about a Linux distro not recognizing something, there's another anecdote someone else can spout about Windows not recognizing something (look at the middle links in my signature, for example).

All of this is pointless. You're still believing the Linux Desktop Myth (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth).

Preinstallation is the only answer. If it weren't, Dell would give you a blank computer and a Windows CD. As it is now, they give you a preinstalled, preconfigured Windows computer with either a restore disk or Windows XP and then separate CDs for all the necessary drivers Windows doesn't have and then a separate CD for DVD playback (which Windows also doesn't have).

aysiu: Hey, here you are! Thought I could find you on these forums, as you mention hanging around in the ubuntuforums in your awesome article. Which brings me to your article - it's awesome (Especially the comparison of the Mac as not being ready for Desktop :) Brilliant!). I started this thread and has read every post of it. It has had me realize just about the same stuff you write in your article. I would never had been able to put it down in a just as good article as yours, though. (I tried a bit at http://wiki.motin.eu but I have not the focus on debunking a myth, only on how OEM installations and teaching school children are the best ways to go today)

That's a good point. A Dell PC with Windows comes setup up perfectly for its hardware. Preinstallation can solve all of the problems with hardware. But software apps will still be a problem unless there is a solidified Linux world under one or two distros with serious commercial software house support.

I suppose you could say that preinstallation with Windows is what has made Windows so flexible. All the drivers out there are built with OEMs in mind. Why? Cuz that's where the money really is for the hardware companies. So you end up with zillions of drivers available, and they usually get along with each other. So, in the end, it's not hard to home-build a PC cuz drivers are everywhere, built for all these preinstallations by OEMs. That really is where the Windows monopoly stemmed from. OEM-built PCs, not home-builts.

That would really help Linux establish hardware support.

Fascinating article. I'll read it through.

I'd recommend you to do just that. I recommend everybody to do just that...

Thread Consensus
I think this thread has had it's purpose. I set out with the intention of attracting focus on the importance of being honest about the current state of Ubuntu in the perspective of the novices. I also set out on the false premise of that Ubuntu lacked more hardware and other out-of-the-box support than Windows does, but realized that it is all because of OEM preinstallations (Ubuntu does a better job than Windows from bare-metal in most cases - it's a fact).

Today I sincerely see the common mistake many make in believing that solving ex Windows powerusers' problems automatically lures novice users over to Windows. There must be TONS and TONS of work-efforts in the community that get's wasted all the time because a large number of linux-users are not being honest about where the true problems lie, and thus either lay their efforts in the wrong areas of development, or waste their time at forums spreading pointless tunnel-viewed statements about everything linux is and isn't according to them.

A little side-note. "All of this is pointless" is not very true though - it is great marketing for your article, and the thread will attract many new readers to it. I will definitely watch out for other threads being spammed numerous times by myth-believers and post the url to your article in them - hopefully lowering the amount of myth-believers out there - and make room for constructive posts that actually suggest methods of improvements, or better yet: having people stop wasting the time in forums and instead start chipping in with solid contribution in a real project. This is actually what I am about to do from now on. It took me over 2 weeks on these forums while I have uni and work, and from this day on I will instead focus on uni and work in such a matter that i can continue developing Joomla Multisites and/or other OSS-projects. Thank you A. Y. Siu!

As a last note - Here is the main part of the above article. It pinpoints exactly the situation of Linux and it's inability to spread to the masses. Enjoy here or better yet read the full length at: http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

If I were to generalize, I'd say most Linux users fall into one of these three categories: absolute novice, ex-Windows power user, *nix expert. I'm atypical in that in terms of my abilities and drive, I'm an ex-Windows power user, but in terms of my needs, I'm more like an absolute novice.

The Absolute Novice
Absolute novices become Linux users because they have a friend or relative who is obsessed with Linux and on whom the novice relies for all tech support. What happens is the novice has seemingly endless Windows problems (crashes, spyware, adware, viruses, slowdowns) and every time she encounters those problems, she calls her Linux-using friend or relative. Eventually, the Linux user says, "Look, I'm tired of supporting you on Windows. I'll set up Linux for you." After she installs and sets up Linux, she tells the novice, "Here is your web browser--this icon. Here is your email program--this icon. This is how you shut down you computer." There is a little resistance at first: "Where's the Start Menu?" "It's right here." "But it doesn't say Start on it." "That's okay. I can change the icon for you." After a while, the novice has no more computer problems and everyone's happy.

The ex-Windows Power User
She knows Windows inside and out. She can edit a few things in the registry. She defragments. She does disk scans. She knows all the free but good anti-virus, anti-spyware scanning tools. She has a list of about ten or twelve programs she uses and loves to use in Windows. She also gets called to solve her friends' and relatives' Windows problems. Something happens one day, though--she's tired of all the maintenance she has to do on her Windows computer, she's tired of her Linux-using friends always talking about how great Linux is, or she just wants to try something new. So she installs Linux. Very likely, she will encounter problems. Either her wireless card won't work, or the CD burning program doesn't do absolutely everything that Nero does, or the Linux fonts "look ugly" to her. Then, there are two ways she can go. She either throws her hands up and screams (virtually or actually), "I can't take it any more. This OS sucks. I'm going back to Windows. Linux is not ready for the desktop" or she rolls up her sleeves and says, "I'm going to make this work. This is fun figuring this out."

The *nix Expert
This person has a lot of experience using Unix, Linux, BSD, or some combination of the three. She probably programs or does some kind of system administration for a living, and she uses Linux on her desktop at home because she thinks it's fun, and it's a natural extension of having to use Linux at work for administering servers. She probably doesn't think most users should be using Linux, as she has a lot of training on computers and thinks that ordinary folks wouldn't be able to handle installing and configuring Linux themselves.

As things currently stand, any one of these groups would be successful in migrating to Linux. Note, though, that the first group needs the help of an experienced Linux user. I've been using Linux for over a year now, and I would not feel confident enough to set up a Linux machine for a novice and say she won't have to worry about anything after that. Also, the second group has two major ways that it reacts. A lot of these potential migrants don't migrate at all--just as I did with Blag, they give Linux a shot and then give up very shortly after they encounter a roadblock or two.

The Biggest Obstacle to the Linux Desktop
If you ask most of these migrants (and most of them will be ex-Windows power users) what the biggest obstacle is to Linux desktop adoption is, you'll get a range of responses, and they'll usually stem from each user's bias. One user who couldn't get her printer to work might complain about third-party hardware support. Another user who couldn't get the proper screen resolution on her widescreen laptop might complain about the hardware detection. Yet another user who loves gaming on her PC might cite the lack of commercial games in Linux.

Obviously, publicists for certain Linux distro companies and pro-Linux essayists--both of whom occasionally proclaim a certain year to be "the year of the Linux desktop"--imagine that these obstacles are the ones to be overcome. As each new version of Ubuntu or SuSE or Fedora or Mepis or Linspire comes out, some Linux advocates imagine that the new features will demolish that barrier or series of barriers that stops ex-Windows power users from adopting Linux on the desktop.

Well, here's where the myth breaks down.

Ex-Windows power users may make up the majority of migrants to Linux, but they do not make up the majority of Windows users or computer users. Anecdotally, I'd say I'm the only power user in my office at work. In my family, my brother is a power user, and my father is more like a *nix expert, with my mother a novice. My wife is a power user, but most of our mutual friends are novices, and almost all of her family members (including extended family) are novices. Now, keep in mind, even the power users I know (my brother, my wife, a couple of our friends from college) have never undertaken a Linux installation. So these are not folk who have tried to install Linux and then gotten frustrated and given up.

So out of my friends and relatives, my father and I are the only ones who have installed Linux.

Something else must be stopping everyone else.

The barrier isn't a dual-boot being difficult to set up. The barrier is not there being too many distros to choose from. The barrier isn't the difficulty in obtaining and burning an .ISO correctly. The barrier isn't the two features Photoshop has that GIMP does not.

In order to understand what's stopping masses of people migrating from Windows to Linux, we need to examine what makes people go to Windows in the first place, and also debunk some of the "Linux isn't ready" propaganda that could just as easily apply to Mac as well... after all, no one says Mac isn't ready for the desktop.

Why do they choose Windows?
Well, the answer is obvious--they don't. With few exceptions, everyone I know who uses Windows uses it because they've always used Windows (inertia), because they feel they can't afford a Mac (money), and because the non-Mac PC they buy comes with Windows on it.

Buying a computer with the operating system already installed and configured takes care of many of the obstacles to Linux adoption. You don't have to figure out which distro to use because you just use the distro that came with your machine. You don't have to figure out which .ISO to download or how to burn it correctly, and you don't have to figure out how to install it. You don't have to wonder if your screen resolution or sound card will be detected properly. Dell, HP, Sony, or some other vendor has already done all that testing for you and included the necessary drivers for it all to "just work."

And since most people buy computers with Windows preinstalled, that also means most of their friends and relatives and coworkers also buy computers with Windows preinstalled, which in turn means that they don't feel left out. No one wants to make a stupid choice, but if you're going to make one, might as well not be alone in making that choice. After all, if you buy a Windows PC and it crashes, your friend with a Windows PC is likely to say, "Yeah, I hate it when that happens." But if you have Linux on your PC and it crashes, your friend will likely say, "Oh, Linux doesn't seem very stable." And, along with that commiseration in Windows, you may also get a helping hand. Maybe your friend will say, "Yeah, I hate it when that happens... have you ever tried...?" But if you're using Linux, all you'll get is, "Linux doesn't seem very stable."

Windows is also in the public eye. System requirements for software often indicate a Windows operating system. Windows has commercials on TV. Printers, MP3 players, scanners, keyboards--just about any peripheral you buy--will indicate a compatibility with Windows and also include a Windows driver to ensure it works with Windows. If you walk into Best Buy, Circuit City, CompUSA, or any major electronics store, you're very likely to see Windows computers. You may or may not see a Mac computer, and it's highly unlikely you'll see a computer with Linux preloaded.

This is why people "choose" Windows. It's already been chosen for them. It's everywhere. I didn't choose to use Windows when I was growing up any more than I chose to be a US citizen. I was born in the US, and I was born into Windows for all practical purposes.

Is Mac "Ready for the Desktop"?
Apple's computers have a very low desktop share, unlike their iPods. I grew up in an upper-class neighborhood with a mix of upper-middle-class and upper-class friends. I went to college with a similar socio-economic class. Most of my friends, despite having financial means, still prefer Windows PCs because they're cheaper. One friend of ours from college uses a Mac because the school she teaches at uses Macs. My wife uses a Mac because she's in school for a second-degree and the program requires you to use a Mac. Now, I'm not saying my wife and our friend from college use Macs grudgingly. They've both fallen in love with Apple computers since, but they probably would not have bought those computers if they hadn't been forced to.

A lot of the criticisms leveled against desktop Linux also apply to Macs:

* Few commercial games available (and only after a long period of waiting)
* Less hardware support
* Few users (compared to the vast majority of users--who use Windows)
* Culture shock ( a different way of installing programs, managing windows and icons)

Yet Macs do not face the "not ready for the desktop" criticism. Even though my wife and I had to carefully look for the blue smiley face on printers before we could buy one for her Powerbook, even though she had to wait a really long time for Sims 2 to be ported to Mac, even though none of our family members and few of our friends use Mac, even though my wife still complains about the usability of the Mac OS X interface... no one in the public sphere declares that Mac is not yet ready for the desktop.

There are two things Mac has going for it that Linux does not--publicity and preinstallation. Yes, Macs are not in every electronics store. Depending on where you live, you may need to go to an Apple store to buy one. But every Apple computer comes with Mac OS X preinstalled. And since Mac OS X will work on only Apple computers, you don't need to worry about hardware detection. And you are not a freak if you use a Mac. People don't walk over to your Mac and say, "What's... that?!" It's cool to use a Mac. It matches the iPod "everyone" has. All the movie stars in Hollywood use Macs in the movies and on TV. There appear to be more Mac advertisements on TV than Windows advertisements--at least in the United States.

There is no Linux store. There are a handful of stores that sell Linux computers and a handful of online vendors who sell Linux computers, but there is no Linux store similar to an Apple store. The only Linux commercials I've ever seen (and seldom, at that) are for servers, not desktops. The only time I saw Linux in the movies was in Roving Mars, where NASA people were using it to track their little Mars probes. It was an exciting moment for me, but it also reinforces the stereotype that ordinary people don't use Linux--only scientific types. I'm not a scientific type, but that's beside the point...

Usability does play a role
There are a lot of misconceptions about usability in operating systems. First of all, an intuitive interface is a nice thing to have, but it's also highly overrated. After all, it's not intuitive to access the Start menu (indicating a beginning) in order to shut down (an end), but Windows users get used to this easily. It's not intuitive to drag a USB drive to the trash (which usually erases files) in order to eject it, but Mac users get used to this. Every operating system has its own quirks.

Yes, desktop Linux is pretty much a point-and-click environment, but the two most popular interfaces for Linux--KDE and Gnome--forget what you copy to the clipboard once you close the source application. It took me quite a while to get used to this, and if I'm copying two lines (i.e., not a lot) to the clipboard, I don't see why I should have to keep the source application open to keep those two lines in the clipboard. Yes, there are programs that help you "solve" this problem, but they are separate programs, and, in my experience, they don't work that well. In KDE, the automount configuration for external devices (USB drives, CDs, DVDs) is extremely confusing. In Gnome, you can't choose what folder you want your screensaver slideshow to take pictures out of.

In the end, though, you adjust. I had to adjust to Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X coming from a Windows background. Likewise, I had to adjust to Linux.

Software installation can be extremely easy in Linux if you stick to centralized repositories (which contain a lot of software), but if you have peculiar needs or want the absolutely most up-to-date software (can't be more than five months behind), you may have to compile some applications from source, which is well beyond the scope of many even intermediate users.

The way I imagine this being fixed--since a universal installer is not going to be adopted en masse out of principle or mandate--is one distro simply becoming more popular than the other ones, to the point where it is the dominant Linux distro and all software developers who want to make a Linux port would be foolish to not create a binary for that distro. Then, that becomes the de facto "universal" installer. Otherwise, we're stuck with easy installation for repository programs and painful installation for other applications.

What's going to make the difference, then?
Well, certainly it doesn't hurt for distros to improve the quality of their software. Better usability is a good thing, more graphical frontends for tasks is a good thing. Good hardware detection and more applications are good things. It won't matter, though, how easy you make the installation of Linux (and, believe me, right now it's extremely easy if I can do it)--most users do not install operating systems.

It's true. Most users won't even use Windows restore CDs, let alone install Windows from scratch. Why would they install an unfamiliar operating system on their computers?

There are some small vendors who sell Linux preinstalled systems. Linux Certified. Emperor Linux. Koobox. Groovix. System76. The key to getting Linux on the desktop adopted is to support these vendors. Unfortunately, many Linux users (more than I thought before I did a poll of Ubuntu Forum members) prefer to build their own computers and install Linux themselves. Sure, they don't have to pay the "Windows tax," but they also do not send the message to small Linux vendors "Hey, you're doing a good thing" or, in turn, to larger vendors like Dell "Hey, this Linux preinstalled thing is a profitable enterprise."

Money talks in the computer business, just as in any other business. If the Linux desktop is seen as a profitable area for companies, companies will sell Linux desktops. If it's seen as a big black hole because Linux users just build their own computers anyway, then Windows will continue to dominate the desktop market.

Likewise, if Linux desktop users want more support from hardware manufacturers, they should let those manufacturers know Linux users have money to spend and will spend it on their competitors if those competitors make Linux-compatible hardware (or release driver code to Linux developers). A letter to this effect might help: "I really like your product, but unfortunately it's not compatible with my Linux system, so I went with your competitor's similar product. I hope you will consider making your drivers available to Linux developers, as I look forward to buying your products in the future." Show them a copy of the receipt if you think it'd make a difference.

What else can we do in the meantime?
Yes, it all sounds like a glorious plan, but of the tens of thousands of Ubuntu Forums members, I know of only two who have actually bought System76 computers. Most prefer to build their desktop computers or buy "white" laptops (i.e., laptops with no operating system installed). Some want to buy Macbooks or really cheap Dell computers.

I won't lie to you. System76's computers are not dirt cheap. Their pricing is competitive with some of the major Windows computers vendors out there--especially when it comes to 12" laptops--but they are probably one of the most affordable Linux vendors out there, too!

It's tough to pay more for a computer on principle, especially when that principle isn't saving lives, feeding the poor, or stopping wars. You're just trying to promote free and open source software on the desktop.

So what else can we do?

* Provide good documentation. There are some Linux compatibility lists out there, and the more we improve them, the less mystery there will be about what to buy. You'll be able to find out easily whether or not a printer or wireless card works with Linux or not. You'll get a good sense of what hardware manufacturers release Linux drivers, too. There's an online quiz at Zegenie Studios, too, that allows you to answer a few simple questions and get three or four recommendations on which Linux distros might be good ones for you to start with (as opposed to weeding through hundreds to find your perfect match). A common misconception in Linux circles is that people don't like choice. They like choice--they just want to make informed choices. A big list of cryptic-sounding names isn't choice; it's confusion. But a list of choices with reviews and detailed descriptions will make people feel empowered. I don't want one pizza, one car, one movie, or one book. Why would I want one desktop, one operating system, one application? It was ultimately documentation--not software--that got me into Ubuntu, so do not underestimate the value of a good tutorial.
* Be Welcoming to New Users. I've read horror stories of old Linux users yelling at new users to RTFM (or "read the ******* manual") instead of actually helping. Part of what will make desktop Linux more accessible to new users is an atmosphere that encourages new users to ask questions and not fear being ridiculed or scolded instead of helped. The Ubuntu Forums offered this, and I think there are other Linux distros displaying similar attitudes on their forums.
* Contribute. Some new Linux users who get frustrated feel that they are somehow making Linux better by whining about how it's "not ready for the desktop" or "needs" to improve certain features. Well, signing up for a forum account and posting a message to other users doesn't make Linux any better. You can file bug reports (that the actual developers read and respond to), you can contribute code yourself if you're a programmer, you can donate money if you have some to spare, but whining really doesn't improve Linux one bit.
* Educate and Be Honest. Recognize that Linux is not a cure-all and is not for everyone. Everyone should have a choice, and there are some times when you have to tell people a Linux distro may not be the best choice for them at this time. There are other times when you have to tell people it's worth a shot. Anyone who, like me, checks email, surfs the web, types documents, listens to music, organizes and manipulates pictures, and designs some websites (albeit poorly... but that's my fault, not Linux's) will be fine with Linux. If you love Lexmark printers, AutoCAD, Adobe Creative Suite, and Flash MX Studio, Linux may not be the best option for you right now. Don't be a crazy evangelist. I was at first, and I think I permanently turned a friend off from Linux. Just remember--one bad experience will leave a lasting first impression. Enjoy it. If people see you having fun with your computer, they may get curious--"Why are you having so much fun with that thing?" On Windows, I can get work done. On Linux, I can get work done, too... and have fun while doing it.


As thread OP, I insist that everyone that feels an urge to reply further in this thread read the above article first. If apparent that the poster has not done so, I insist all others to silently ignore the post, ie not waste any time in replying to it.

EDIT: I am definitely buying my next laptop (or even just buy one for fun right now) at http://system76.com/, http://www.linuxcertified.com/, http://www.emperorlinux.com/ or http://groovix.com/groovix.html (with http://system76.com/ as the preferred alternative as it seems right now).

Hell - I wish you'd all do the same! It is the number ONE way to contribute to Ubuntu spread - supporting the few Linux OEM-manufacturers out there!

EDIT2: Check this out: http://system76.com/index.php/cPath/2_52 ! This is way cooler (and cheaper) than MacMini!

Also, a suggestion for anyone reading this is to get into helping out with Edgy: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=232047 to help sort out the last bugs.

[reginaldday]

I love Ubuntu and all that comes with it. But I am a web programmer and seasoned computer user, probably like most of you who read this post. Still - I can't recommend anyone I know to format their hard drive and use Ubuntu as the sole OS on their computers. (Instead I promote people to dual-boot install as described in http://wiki.motin.eu/HowToComfortablySwitchFromWindowsToUbuntu)

XP/Vista is simply superior to Ubuntu, although not in a developer-friendly way (so what?). A Windows computer WORKS - all the time (at least when newly installed), and that is enough for most people.

When Ubuntu fixes basic stuff as working hibernation & S-Video output, stable easy wireless networking, a full-fledged Xgl, working mediacenter software, a pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 (preferably with great software like Picasa bundled in there) and a killer help system that focuses on pre-windows users we will start talking...

But as for know, Dapper Drake is simply a hell of a good operating system for the price - but not for the efforts and missing capabilities that comes with switching from XP/Vista if you are not a seasoned computer user.

USABILITY FOR THE DUMMIES - will win the world's hearts.

My bet is that Ubuntu will be the leading OS in a matter of ten years from now. The open-source development in the world will accelerate in a significantly higher pace than MS can hire new employees.

What Ubuntu needs though more than all, is feedback from the DUMMIES. That is all our friends that do no more than checking their e-mail, chatting on MSN and/or playing games. When the dummies can use and be satisfied with Ubuntu for extended periods of time, I and probably all of you would honestly recommend your computer-noob friends to start installing Ubuntu on their machines, and that will be the break-through moment for Ubuntu...

If you reply, do NOT reply with exaggerated statements on all spyware and adware a Windows computer collects, or how Bill Gates rips you off, almost illegally etc - Windows is a great OS - even if it doesn't fit just you! But please, if you have a sensible and honest opinion in this matter - I'd really like to hear it!
i agree with you my main computer is still running widows xp, my second is running hoary hedgehog. we still have a way to go catching windows and getting acceptance in the wider community, i have been giving dapper cd,s out and all i get is what,s that, not one person has come back and said i,m getting rid of my windows,

[motin]

I really, seriously doubt that anything is going to be said here that hasn't been hashed and rehashed in a million other linux-vs-windows threads on boards across the net. It always turns into "Windows version X has this" - "Oh yeah? Linux version Y has this!" It's silly.

You want to know why it's silly? Because at the end of the day, what this thread is about is the debate over whether Linux should remain true to its techie roots, or get (maybe over-)simplified to appeal to Windows users. Or maybe you're just wallowing in feature-envy on one side or the other.

Go do something productive. Learn to code and make new features for whatever OS you prefer. Go make the software world a better place, and let this thread die in peace.

I agree whole-heartedly. All of you - read this post: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1520236#post1520236

Or go directly to the article: http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[mssever]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mssever http://ubuntuforums.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1518684#post1518684)
Being able to run common apps in Linux will require developers to make Linux software. There really isn't any way around this, other than using emulation.

Read up here as well. WINE plays a significant role here as well. Instead of porting their whole software, they could make slight modifications to their code so that it is supported by the current WINElib. Look at Google's wonderful photo-app Picasa for example.

This is what I was talking about, though I didn't express it so clearly. I love Picasa, but the only reason it works in Linux is because Google took the trouble to make it work with Wine (granted, it took a lot less trouble than making a native Linux version). As Microsoft continually changes the Windows API, though, I don't have a lot of confidence that Wine will be able to get to the point where it will be possible to run any Windows program on Linux.

As for Wine 2.0, the following Google search turned up exactly 4 hits, the latest of which is from 2001:
"wine 2.0" site:winehq.com So I think that saying that Wine 2.0 will support iTunes is speculation. Of course, I can't figure out why anyone would want iTunes in the first place, given that there are many superior media players out there. But that's just my opinion.

[SoundMachine]

In some ways, yes, Vista is superior to dapper, XP is pure crap though.

Vista has TPM on the administrative level, that means that i can control everything down to the hardware as an administrator, if anyone tries to install anything it won't install.

It's the ONLY secure system to date.

[daynah]

Ubuntu is a great OS - even if it doesn't fit just you!

In some ways, Windows is superior, you are perfectly right.
In some other ways, Ubuntu and other linux OS are quite superior.

To you, the ways Windows is superior are more important. That's why you think Windows is better.
To us, we think the ways Ubuntu is superior is more important, so we think Ubuntu is better.

There are people who are unhappy with Windows because they don't care about the ways it is superior, and they don't realize that there is an os that fixes its inferiorities.

There are some people who tried to be super hard core and use linux but then realized that they really just liked Windows, it fit them, and the way Linux is superior... they don't care about. They care about the way Windows is superior.

In the end... They Are Different Operating Systems.

They Are For Different People.



Notice how less often we have this coversation about Macs? It's because we've accepted that mac is different, and that there are "mac people." and macs are just nuts, and sometimes you wanna nut and sometimes you don't.


You can think of it like the olimpics. Honestly, it doesn't matter if the US wins 6 metals and England wins 4, because maybe those 4 where in harder sports. Or maybe US 6 metals were in sports than no other countries play (see: Basketball). Or maybe one of England's medals is also like that. you just can't compare it tick by tick. It's just whether you like England or US, Ubuntu or Windows better.

[kragen]

Windows Has:
Hardware support for all of my hardware
The ability to run windows games and programs that at the moment have no viable linux alternative.

As motin pointed out, this has nothing to do with Windows. It has to do with lazy Windows programmers who know nothing about making software portable and hardware manufacturers who are too lazy to get drivers up an running on anything other than Windows. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Windows itself. Of course both would be unproblematic if the former released source code and the latter released hardware specifications sufficient for someone else to write a driver.

Unreal Tournament and id software's entire game collection runs on Linux as does Neverwinter Nights. Windows programmers obviously could get their software running just fine under Linux if they so chose.

So say not that Windows supports more stuff, but rather that most Windows developers are lazy.

:)

I dont think its fair to say that windows developers are lazy - Programming software to run on windows and linux, both at the same time, is not really that easy - the time / money needed to do this varies depending on the initial design decisions made when the development started, but it's not exactlay a 5 miniute job, and so developers need to assess whether or not porting to linux is going to gain them more than they loose - and the answer is usualy "no".

It has to be said at this point that microsoft have invested heavily in developer tools, and it's paid off - wheras a while ago developers might program in a fairly platform independent manner, using c++ with a generic c++ IDE, nowadays a lot of developers find it easier and faster to use VS .NET, even more so since the express editions have been released.

I think one step towards better software support for linux would be to produce better development tools & most importantly documentation for less experienced developers - there is a good reason why microsoft give out development tools for free to students - if you get a developer to start programming / learn in one enviroment, they will be more likely to continue programming in that enviroment.

[iam_foo]

Windows will lose the desktop war..and it sure isn't going to take ten years.
Ubuntu developement is fiber optic vs Windoz 28.8k.
and i should mention that you left that out.
i will also mention that the support is miles ahead as well.
[EVEN THOUGH ITS FREE]
The most retarded aspect of your post is you act like you want Ubuntu
to be Windoz [well..just like Windoz, but free]. Well, its not Windoz..and i hope it never is. Let your retard friends stick with Winbloz as well..Ubuntu doesnt care.
I wish wannabe linux users like yourself would just go use Windoz and stfu.
Ubuntu is free..and you want to complain about it?
Go pay for Vista then.
I like the configurablity of Ubuntu.. something windows
lacks, you're basically screwed in windoz if your "wizard" doesnt work.
And btw,
Vista isn't that great..it's not even a true 64bit system[as advertised].
And it WILL be released with all kinds of bugs, and it WILL attract viruses, spam, have exploits..etc,etcetera.
Last i'll say this..recently PIXAR switched to linux. It was thought that during the transition that there might be problems. Well problems actually dropped by some 15 or so % and productivity r0se by suprising numbers.

your post is misplaced.
here:

http://forums.windowsforum.org/

*kthxbuhbye.

:twisted:

ps. yes, windoz users are dumb. if you doubt this..go to a bookstore, hit the computer section..there's rows and rows of books that will tell you.
"Windoz for Dummies" ..so my retard statements arent unfounded.:-({|=

[max.diems]

I wish people would stop making these threads trying to convince yourself and others that linux is so vastly superior.

How else are we supposed to get people to use Linux? People complain when we talk about Windows not being as good, they want to no advantages of Linux.

[kragen]

I wish people would stop making these threads trying to convince yourself and others that linux is so vastly superior.

How else are we supposed to get people to use Linux? People complain when we talk about Windows not being as good, they want to no advantages of Linux.

The flip side of your argument is that you expect people to use linux even if it has no advantages?

Linux has a whole host of advantages, but if we're talking about "Vista vs Linux", Linux is severely lacking in some important aspects for the vast majority of users.

Myself, I cant wait for that to change (and it will change :)), but until then, I need to use windows for a number of tasks, and I came to the conclusion long ago that running two OS's parrallel just isnt worth the hassle.

[podunk]

Thank you for the link to the nice thoughtful article. One point i had never considered was buying a preloaded Linux computer, she is right! If we begin to do this when we want a new computer it will help greatly to bring Linux to the attention of mainstream computer manufactures and the mainstream users - the folks you call DUMMIES.

I've built all my computers but 1 since 1994.

My first Microsoft OS was MS-DOS 3.0. Since that one I've had all versions up to 6.22 (the last). I have had Windows 3.0, 3.1, 95, NT 3.51 (release candidates) NT4.0 (release candidate) 98, 98 SE, XP Home and Pro. I guess this puts me close to being a power user?

Early on this year I did something *very* stupid and burned up my computer (we're talking flames out the back here)and I had no computer so I went to a store and bought a MS Media Edition computer to tide me over until the parts came in to build a "real" computer.

That's an awful lot of Microsoft operating systems! Of course there is all the other software that one needs to go with all those operating systems. Word Perfect, Lotus, Word, Outlook, various virus scanners, disk utilities, firewalls, games - the list could get very long here! In short, many many thousands of dollars of software.

When it comes to an OS I much prefer speed out of the box to stability. I figure that if it will just ahead and *do* something I'll learn the tricks needed to keep it up and stable (can you tell I've had DOS 3 and 5 and Windows 3.0? :-) ) so as far as I'm concerned with either DOS 6.22 or Windows 98SE Microsoft got it right.

When I finished my new computer I installed Win 98 as my default OS. I was somewhat irked when i read that Microsoft would no longer provide security patches.

I find Windows XP unbearably slow.

Of course - XP will soon reach the end of it's support life. So, I've been doing a lot on the Media Center Edition. Supposedly this is the latest and last word on multimedia.

It came with a bunch of free software preinstalled. This was all either "Lite" versions or nag ware to upgrade to the next greatest. One of the free applications was Cyber Link DVD Lite. It didn't work very well, so I installed my full version - and it still didn't work very well - better but no cigar. Of course - the problem was the video driver needed an update. No biggie, you learn to deal with stuff like that.

I was reading on the web about Vista release candidate 1, and came across a reference to this stuff called Ubuntu Linux, so what the hell, I gave it a try - and it worked. Everybody agreed Vista 1 was no where near ready for prime time, so I decided to play around with Ubuntu while waiting and I was amazed.

I had to do exactly the same things in both Ubuntu and Windows MCE. The methods were slightly different - but the exact same things.

Boith required updating the video drivers.

I was dissatisfied with the default movie player and installed something I liked in both.

I didn't like the default music player, so I got a music player i liked.

I played around with the included office suite. The MCE came with a trial version of Office, Ubuntu came with Open Office. I saw no complling reason to upgrade MS-Office - my version still has 1 year before it's "support cycle" ends and I'll have to upgrade for security reasons. The only application I use in Office is Outlook, I prefer Word Perfect for my WP and spreadsheets.

Since I don't like MS-Office I didn't think much of Open Office *except* for Evolution - which I find quite nice!

I found a open source Word Perfect - so installed Word Perfect on both machines.

I made several mistakes along the way with both OS's. Since I have so much Windows experience (which translates to I've screwed everything up so badly it can't be fixed so many times that I learned how to fix it) I was able to back track and fix stuff.

With Ubuntu I lack that experience and have very little actual work invested - it was easier to just start over from scratch (10 minute install versus around an hour for MCE)

Windows Vista Ultimate is preselling on Amazon for 399.00 US. I'm sure there will be an upgrade price much lower than that - but still.

I was thinking about downloading release candidate 2, and was reading various reviews, and it hit me

I have everything - *everything* Vista Ultimate offers -almost -

or plus some depending on the way you look at it. :-)

High security, robust file system, multimedia - I have all that in Ubuntu. One click recording and DVD and CD burning. 2 click installs for thousands and thousandds of free programs. I had to make the same adjustments, I have to do the same work to get everything to match my tastes.

Vista is priced at 399.00. Not only will I have to buy the OS, I will need to upgrade some components on my computer. I will need to buy software so i can use the OS to work and play with.

Once I buy everything I will need to install and configure it. I will have to read how-tos and release notes. Doubtless there will be patches to download and install.

I will have to give all this money to people - and instead of them promising me to do things - I have to promise *them* I won't do things. I won't try to change or improve their software. I promise I won't sue them when someone finds a flaw in their program and hacks my credit card info. I promise I won't sue them for monitoring my activities on my computer or the Internet, and divulging that info to others.

Ubuntu is free! I can do anything i want to with it - as long as I give it away just as it was given to me. I started using Ubuntu in early August, and the more I use and learn about it, the better I like it.

I won't be downloading the Vista release candidate - it might break my Linux! :-D

Once again (if you've read this far) I'd like to thank you for the informative article, and return the favor. You might find this interesting:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxtroll

[motin]

Thank you for the link to the nice thoughtful article. One point i had never considered was buying a preloaded Linux computer, she is right! If we begin to do this when we want a new computer it will help greatly to bring Linux to the attention of mainstream computer manufactures and the mainstream users - the folks you call DUMMIES.

Great you read it. People still post in this thread thoughtlessly without reading it despite 2 big fat warnings and a poll...

I was reading on the web about Vista release candidate 1, and came across a reference to this stuff called Ubuntu Linux, so what the hell, I gave it a try - and it worked. Everybody agreed Vista 1 was no where near ready for prime time, so I decided to play around with Ubuntu while waiting and I was amazed.
...
Windows Vista Ultimate is preselling on Amazon for 399.00 US. I'm sure there will be an upgrade price much lower than that - but still.

I was thinking about downloading release candidate 2, and was reading various reviews, and it hit me

I have everything - *everything* Vista Ultimate offers -almost -

or plus some depending on the way you look at it. :-)

I won't be downloading the Vista release candidate - it might break my Linux! :-D

Great you made the pleasant observation in time! (Before buying Vista...) There are very many people out there that would be more than well off with Ubuntu instead of Vista - and do not know it... Not telling them would be a horrible act of spreading inefficiency. That is one of the reasons I am writing a lot right now in these forums (you came by Ubuntu by a cross-reference didn't you?), widening my wiki-pages, informing friends and sending e-mails to my collegues - hell I am even "selling" Ubuntu for free at a ebay-like site in Sweden: http://www.prylbanken.se/annons/datatillbehor_och_delar/gratis_operativsystem_for_din_dator_-_ubuntu_linux_skankes/373766/
:D

If you can do the same, you will save lots of people's time and money, especially them who are not buying a computer pre-installed with Vista but actually are going to upgrade with the upgrade-DVD.

Btw I also started a wiki-page: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhereToFindUbuntuPreInstalled to make it easier to buy OEM Ubuntu. Please help exanding it if you can! (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=261468)

Cheers!

[WalmartSniperLX]

I installed Vista RC1 (release candidate 1) Ultimate a few days ago. I used it for a while until I was aquainted by it. It has some nice security features and all. But, about 15 minutes later, I did a complete HDD sweep (reformatted) with Kubuntu. Now Im only running one os, KDE Ubuntu.

Vista is nice, dont get me wrong, but its still windows. It has anal copyright laws where microsoft is stealing other people's ideas and sticking them under their copyright laws.

Ubuntu all the way. Im sick of microsoft for their repitition of a horrible system. Besides, you can run windows in linux, beat that(forget xwindows) :rolleyes:

The greatest thing about open source is that its community maintained. Its by far the greatest, because It promises a fast growing environment where everyone can take part in.

Ubuntu > Vista

[iam_foo]

hahaha
Ive been using linux/unix for fifteen+years.
ive tried many flavors, especially early on.
i stuck with slackware for sometime..then gentoo.
ive also done much computer related work.
fact is..
i'll put a linux user knowing his way around, against a windoz user anyday.
so if you want to take offense to a true general statement..
go ahead.:rolleyes:
i can show you millions of win users who dont know anything..
and i mean ..yes, dont know anything.
there is a reason why you stated in your original post, that you wouldnt have your friends try ubuntu.
OMG command line? simply editing a file?
the majority of windoz users will have trouble doing anything that requires more than
pointing and clicking.
you both know that.
[-X

[guitronics]

I don't see how anyone can compare Vista to Ubuntu.

XP,yes,but not Vista, unless you are a "Developer/Beta Tester".

As far as I can determine,Vista (a.k.a. "LONGhorn")isn't for sale yet to end user's on the desktop....maybe it's shipping for server deployments.

For a complete Newbie to computing, Ubuntu should be at least as easy as Winduhs to learn.

How many new users have ever formatted/partitioned/mounted a Hard Drive? How many present users of Windoze have done that?

It might be easier for someone who's NEVER used a desktop computer to start with Ubuntu,as they won't have all those bad Winduhs habits to re-learn.

I like,and agree with the post that suggests a ready-made Ubuntu Computer for a New user...the easiest way.

[galileon]

I won't be downloading the Vista release candidate - it might break my Linux! :-D


its quite safe to run it under vmware...

btw, in xp, theres something i call the xp-bootloader-trojan, because installing xp trashes your bootloader without any warning, and prevents you from booting linux.

[insane_alien]

I don't see how anyone can compare Vista to Ubuntu.

XP,yes,but not Vista, unless you are a "Developer/Beta Tester".

fine then, we'll compare vista with edgy. edgy is still in development(although not for long since its on schedule). even edgys early releases kicked the pants off of vista. and we'll probably have edgy+1 out before vista even gets close to its release date. by the time vista comes out we'll be working on edgy +2 maybe +3. i'd say we'll be far and away better than vista by then.

[NordicRX8]

what happens if you have a top notch computer with ubuntu? I'll tell you , not much because half my hardware isnt even supported and probably will not be for at least another 6 months. Plus when it is supported it dosent work right. #-o

Wow... you seem really disgruntled with either choice. Maybe a MAC is in your future? ;)

Actually, that's one of Linux's biggest attractions... it'll run on ancient (in PC terms) equipment.

Looking at your Signature, that looks like an AWESOME "XP Gaming system". I know I'm envious. How else would you describe ANY system with Crossfire or SLI? If gaming is your thing... you're probably better sticking with XP. That's the only reason my "top dog" computer system still has XP (and Win98se), is to play the 1000's of dollars worth of games I have purchased over the years.

I'm new to Ubuntu (less than 36 hours installed), but am really liking the heck out of it. These forums are a nice place too. Currently, Ubuntu has replaced Win 2k Pro as the OS for my file server. Samba file and print sharing works fine. Although it is "apparent" to me that Ubuntu will eventually find it's way onto my "top-dog" (fastest) computer, I will have to multiboot with XP/98se/Ubuntu AND VISTA :-& . No way around it... when VISTA is released.... all of us who "fix" computers WILL have to learn it, and support it, since M$ has their stranglehold on Tier 1 OEM manufacturers. Problems for consumers = profit for me.
Just my $0.02.

[njzillest]

on win XP i cant run 500 mhz..........


UbuntU is great with the 500 MHz...... i perfer UbunTu as a xp replacement......


I use bKack track for some purposes and i use UbuntU for everything i would normally do on XP

Vista is a big no no for me

[cunawarit]

Which one will win? In terms of numbers Vista will, I have no doubt about that. Is it because it is better? Not really, but the average Joe will use whatever comes with the computer he buys from Dell, and he is already used to the Windows way of doing the basics.

Also, Linux hasn't lost. There are plenty of distros out there and no short of people willing to contribute with time and money. Even if Linux never takes more than 5% of the desktop market it has already been a huge success.

For what its worth for the last week I have been using a Celeron 700 Mhz with 128MB of RAM running Debian Sarge, this is in preference to a 2.53 Ghz Celeron D with 1 GB of RAM running XP. Partly new to novelty, and perhaps shock that the lil old machine with tiny memory can work so well running Linux.

At the same time, I LOVE Windows and Microsoft the company, and actually I am nearly wetting my pants with excitement awaiting for Vista. A little disappointed that I will need a fancy pants graphics card to fully enjoy it, but hey...

Anyway, they are simply different beasts, it is like comparing a Corvette to a Hummer.

PS: I have just noticed that OpenOffice Writer is a million times faster under Debian than Windows, the spelling suggesting thing works like lightning even on this old PC!

PS: Anyone know where to get these lil System76 PCs in the UK? They rule!

[cunawarit]

on win XP i cant run 500 mhz..........

I've run XP on a PII300 with plenty of memory, it was slow, but quicker than any distro with GNOME I have tried on the same machine.

[gn2]

This thread not dead yet?

Me I still prefer apples to oranges, which are too juicy and gum up the keyboard.
Apples allow more clean snacking while typing.

[motin]

its quite safe to run it under vmware...

btw, in xp, theres something i call the xp-bootloader-trojan, because installing xp trashes your bootloader without any warning, and prevents you from booting linux.

Even though it is a rather easy task to install it again if you know how - shouldn't there be more uproar on this matter? Is it legal to do so? It wouldn't be in Sweden if someone put it to trial I am sure.

And where is the "Restore Linux Booting Menu After Windows-Install"-distro? (with nothing more than a kernel, grub and text-based instructions on what to do etc)

[aysiu]

And where is the "Restore Linux Booting Menu After Windows-Install"-distro? It's called Mepis.

Really, any Linux distro can do it, but Mepis has a point-and-click way to do it built into the menus of the live CD.

[motin]

PS: Anyone know where to get these lil System76 PCs in the UK? They rule!

They should ship world-wide. Around $80-120 it'll cost'ya

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/WhereToFindUbuntuPreInstalled

This thread not dead yet?

Me I still prefer apples to oranges, which are too juicy and gum up the keyboard.
Apples allow more clean snacking while typing.

I couldnt resist: http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=262547

Sorry if I am childish...

[Josh_b]

I think it is funny there is a good chance Vista will somehow manage to make my PC lag.

*points to specs*
|
|
\/

[Metacarpal]

Behold, pure uberness!
| AMD Athlon 4200+ 64-Bit X2 | DFi LanParty UT nF4 SLi-DR Expert | 2 x LeadTek 7900GT's | Corsair 1GB DDR400 RAM | ASUS AGEIA PhysX Card | 300GB SATA 2 + 120GB IDE | CoolerMaster Stacker 810 |
Carp, man! Could your computer come give my computer a motivational speech or something?

[Josh_b]

Carp, man! Could your computer come give my computer a motivational speech or something?

I think we could come to some sort of arrangement. lol

[gn2]

I think it is funny there is a good chance Vista will somehow manage to make my PC lag.

*points to specs*
|
|
\/

Sure will, you've only just got enough RAM to meet the minimum requirements.....

So that's £50 for more RAM and £100+ for Vista or £0 to use Ubuntu or other Distro of your choice.

[iposner]

Xgl

The problem most Windows users experience with Windows is that they don't manage the computer properly. Many of the problems attributable to poor performance of Windows is not down to Windows itself, but to the insistence of users in installing every available piece of junk on the internet (for which there is plethora compared with linux). You can speed up Windows significantly by just following these guidelines:

1) Ensure that Internet Explorer deletes temporary files when the browser closes. This is an option on the Tools-->Options-->Advanced tab.

2) Despite what the manufacturer's tell you, much of the bloatware that slows Windows down is unnecessary "auto-update" functionality that loads when the user logs on. Programs that install this "auto-update" functionality include Adobe Acrobat, Java, Quicktime, Real, etc. These are all observable in the System Tray (that's the mini-icons on the right of the taskbar). None of these are required to utilise the programs they are associated with. Find out what is running on startup using Autoruns from sysinternals.com and disable those unnecessary items.

3) Don't install every piece of crap available.

As a professional that makes his living out of both of these platforms, I see that both have their place in the spectrum of solutions. They are not equivalents nor substitutes for each other:

Windows has a wider user base, far better hardware support over a wider range of devices, has better development tools and a more integrated suite of technologies that one would expect from a proprietary technology platform.

Linux has a smaller user base that is more technically savvy, more restricted hardware support, but better response times to bugs. As a result, many of the Linux technologies are extremely resilient, having been through many more development iterations than their Windows counterparts. However what Linux makes up for in component resilience is lost in technology integration: Many of the technologies are disjointed, having poorer integration than their Windows counterparts, as one would expect from the Open Source model. Furthermore, because Open Source depends on many voluntary contributions, people work on things that interest them rather than on those things that are necessary, but which don't. The biggest flaw here is in the area of documentation. Very often documentation is absent, or has been written to target the knowledgebase of the author rather than that of the user/implementor. Linux users have to resort to forums (such as this) to resolve problems that in many cases should have been resolved by adequate documentation.

As things stand right now, Linux is better for more dedicated appliance applications; Windows for integrated Enterprise solutions covering many technologies.

On the desktop Linux has the benefit of being free and running better on old hardware -- but most users will not trade in their Windows workstations any time soon due to superior functionality, wider hardware support and greater ease of use.

Until the Linux community addresses these issues, it will languish as the plaything of the enthusiast and hobbyist.

[Tobster]

IF you wont nice graphic install KDE on Ubuntu - and have a better OS then Vista

[motin]

IF you wont nice graphic install KDE on Ubuntu - and have a better OS then Vista

This just doesn't make sense? What does it mean, anyone? "graphic install KDE"?

[xpod]

I think what he means is if you want even nicer graphics than what you can already achieve with ubunto the try installiing the "KDE Desktop environment"
which will give you the option of what you want at logon....

Ubunto environment OR kubunto environment....Gnome or kde:D

EDIT:although im not too sure i understand it either:D

[spockrock]

well I think a pretty desktop environment is personal, but I dont like kde, I pefer gnome myself, but that personal preference. But if you want graphics that blow osx and vista out of ther water there is XGL or AIGLX with compiz/beryl.

[motin]

The problem most Windows users experience with Windows is that they don't manage the computer properly. Many of the problems attributable to poor performance of Windows is not down to Windows itself, but to the insistence of users in installing every available piece of junk on the internet (for which there is plethora compared with linux). You can speed up Windows significantly by just following these guidelines:

1) Ensure that Internet Explorer deletes temporary files when the browser closes. This is an option on the Tools-->Options-->Advanced tab.

2) Despite what the manufacturer's tell you, much of the bloatware that slows Windows down is unnecessary "auto-update" functionality that loads when the user logs on. Programs that install this "auto-update" functionality include Adobe Acrobat, Java, Quicktime, Real, etc. These are all observable in the System Tray (that's the mini-icons on the right of the taskbar). None of these are required to utilise the programs they are associated with. Find out what is running on startup using Autoruns from sysinternals.com and disable those unnecessary items.

3) Don't install every piece of crap available.

How can you claim this is not due to the way Windows is constructed?

1. Firefox doesn't even create even closely the amount of junk in the system that IE (part of Windows) does.

2. Debians/Ubuntus package system with streamlined inegrated updates of _all_ packages on the system prevents this to even happen.

3. Even if you do install every package available in the repos, you will likely (with enough diskspace) not encounter any system stability problems at all!

I guess you hae a point but your examples are worthless (Forget me if I did not recognize the irony in the examples in case that is the case...)

As a professional that makes his living out of both of these platforms, I see that both have their place in the spectrum of solutions. They are not equivalents nor substitutes for each other:

Windows has a wider user base, far better hardware support over a wider range of devices, has better development tools and a more integrated suite of technologies that one would expect from a proprietary technology platform.

More hardware has windows-support, but what do mean with "a more integrated suite of technologies" ?

Linux has a smaller user base that is more technically savvy, more restricted hardware support, but better response times to bugs. As a result, many of the Linux technologies are extremely resilient, having been through many more development iterations than their Windows counterparts. However what Linux makes up for in component resilience is lost in technology integration: Many of the technologies are disjointed, having poorer integration than their Windows counterparts, as one would expect from the Open Source model. Furthermore, because Open Source depends on many voluntary contributions, people work on things that interest them rather than on those things that are necessary, but which don't. The biggest flaw here is in the area of documentation. Very often documentation is absent, or has been written to target the knowledgebase of the author rather than that of the user/implementor. Linux users have to resort to forums (such as this) to resolve problems that in many cases should have been resolved by adequate documentation.

As things stand right now, Linux is better for more dedicated appliance applications; Windows for integrated Enterprise solutions covering many technologies.

On the desktop Linux has the benefit of being free and running better on old hardware -- but most users will not trade in their Windows workstations any time soon due to superior functionality, wider hardware support and greater ease of use.

Until the Linux community addresses these issues, it will languish as the plaything of the enthusiast and hobbyist.

You might want to update yourself on this area. Your comments seem to be outdated by a few years, or have you not found for example Ubuntu? The sole purpose is to integrate the different technologies, the documentation and all other parts that has been handicapping Linux systems for a long time - and they are doing a hell of a good job IMO.

[xpod]

The problem most Windows users experience with Windows is that they don't manage the computer properly.

I might have only used windows for a short time but THAT was all i did learn about....The un-nessesary services& processes,The de-hyjacking,msconfig,temps,hidden files,tweak this ,tweak that,spybot,avg,zonelabs,ewido,adaware,cwshredder, reigstrys,SFC,tweak some more.....blah blah blah blah blah

I re-installed XP last week from a proper XP cd and had`nt really touched it(bar the above) and it still went belly up yesterday after simply running the reg cleaner on "tuneup".....So i ended up re-installing it again yesterday but did`nt have borrowed xp cd now..
6 hours it took me to re-install that thing with a bootdisk and messy old "i386"CD...then i had to chase down "motherboard drivers" and imagine THAT with only one pc and no ethernet driver to start(luckily i got more)..

And still i got that "wga" thing telling me it was bogus(legite product key)......OFF IT CAME FOR GOOD AS OF THIS AFTERNOON!!!Good ridance

Thank you but i`ll be happy if i dont see it again......It only went back on LAST week cause the wife thought i`d squirm with no proper cd so demanded i put it back on...

Registrys.....who bloody needs them eh!!!!

EDIT:Linux has a smaller user base that is more technically savvy

YOU JEST ........

EDIT2:..Ubunto on the other hand took half an hour and ten minutes to get all the prefered setup sorted.......OK i used "automatix"..again:oops:

[tigerpants]

Wow, aren't these endless Windows v Linux debates really fricking dull?

Does anyone really care? If you want a bloated piece of crap for an OS, which you don't own (read the EULA) despite lashing out a load of cash for it (you "lease" it, sheesh), which is reporting back to some faceless database about your hardware configuration, and lord knows what else, with DRM and other restrictive technologies built-in, then go use Windows.

If you want something thats free, stable and good, use linux or BSD.

Whatever you use, stop whining about it. Its dull.

Amen.

[xpod]

Whatever you use, stop whining about it. Its dull.

Dont read it then!!:-({|=

EDIT:It`s extremely dull but so what...WHO cares as you said?????

[MrDiaz]

I think we can't really compare but Operating Systems. Windows controlls the market nowadays, and those who use Linux know that we cannot find applications as good as we could easily find on Windows Systems.

Dreamweaver, Flash, Photoshop,etc... the list is endless. Also not to mention that to install a software on Linux is quite a pain in the butt, it has never been as easy to install an app as it is under Windows. So what else can I say? For us (people who want to learn, find alternatives, explore the world) linux is an excellent choice. But for my mother, my father and for those who do nothing on the computer other than read mail, listen to music, etc... Windows is still their #1 choice and will continue being that way for the next years or so. Whether we like it or not.

Just my two cents.

[xpod]

Dreamweaver, Flash, Photoshop,etc... the list is endless. Also not to mention that to install a software on Linux is quite a pain in the butt, it has never been as easy to install an app as it is under Windows. So what else can I say? For us (people who want to learn, find alternatives, explore the world) linux is an excellent choice. But for my mother, my father and for those who do nothing on the computer other than read mail, listen to music, etc... Windows is still their #1 choice and will continue being that way for the next years or so. Whether we like it or not.


Dont know why cause i loaded up kubunto on an old pc and my kids dont touch the windows pc in the kitchen now but instead are pestering me to transplant that as well to kubunto ..6.9.11 and 14 and none of them bar my boy has touched the the windows since Ubu\kubu found it`s way in to our merry household

Most everyday users surely just want to go online and ceck their e-mails etc which is all just as simple on these...It`s an EVEN BETTER choice i reckon for folks who just want to do the above....At least then they dont need to worry about all the extra nonsense that needs implemented before it`s even safe to do those things on a windows pc

[MrDiaz]

your kids prefer Linux because is new and interesting. The appareance is also very nice and makes it a perfect environment for them to "play"

[Daniel9389]

ubuntu will win vista is worse than xp:KS

[chuckyp]

Your out of your mind if you think ubuntu is going to have more of a chance than vista.

I guarantee there will be more users of vista than ubuntu

[spockrock]

Your out of your mind if you think ubuntu is going to have more of a chance than vista.

I guarantee there will be more users of vista than ubuntu

umm..... I dont think anyone is saying that all of a sudden ubuntu is gonna have more users then windows, I imagine it would be nothing short of a mircle for ubuntu to all of a sudden gain a market share that would be 10x (a rough estimate) as much the current gnu/linux market share.

I think what they are saying is Ubuntu is a much better operating system.

[koshari]

Also not to mention that to install a software on Linux is quite a pain in the butt, it has never been as easy to install an app as it is under Windows.
Just my two cents.

IMHO synaptics methood of installing software is head and shoulders above the ad hoc approach windows employs.

but really you cant compare a commercial built for profit proprietry product with a collabrotive community effort. each will have strenths and weaknesses that reflect there intended user base.

[spockrock]

IMHO synaptics methood of installing software is head and shoulders above the ad hoc approach windows employs.

but really you cant compare a commercial built for profit proprietry product with a collabrotive community effort. each will have strenths and weaknesses that reflect there intended user base.

I agree with what you said, and my opinion apt-get is way way way way easier then the windows click and install.

[xpod]

your kids prefer Linux because is new and interesting. The appareance is also very nice and makes it a perfect environment for them to "play"

I think you`ll find that they also prefer it cause they dont need to worry about all the silly error messages that come up or the zonealarm popping up every 5 mins asking for their approval(which of course they cant be sure about).....

I was alway being shouted up to "check this" or "check that"....YES they love the "new" thing idea but they also like NOT having to shout on dad every time boxes pop up informing them of some nonesense...

THe windows WAS new to them TOO as we only just started using computers recently so i think they had i fair choice

[cpsalvestrini]

Hand down Ubuntu. On my laptop I can do everything I need to do, check mail, surf the net, write what I need to write, and i´t's actually fun to meddle with the terminal shell! On the minus side I can't sync my iPaq 3970 (with Familiar Linux installed), and some aspects of the OS could use a bit more refinement, such as providing a GUI frontend to more shell-only applications (that's the strength of any commercial OS, it may be dumb, bloated, etc., but it gives you an easy interface to customize your setings, no gediting conf files in some obscure directory). Bluetooth is also weak (no gui frontend to set up RFCOMM, PAN, etc., dealing with pand is a PITA, even after RTFM). Even in light of these minor shortcomings, I'm going to keep my linux distro. Windows is out for me. Oh, BTW, in case you were wondering, I tried Windows Vista beta2, I was utterly disappointed in its performance (poor), stability (not), boot time (MS: Let's wait 5 minutes for your computer to boot! Me:Hell no!) and application support (Microsoft games would not run under Vista, even recent ones.) Plus, I have three letters for you: Xgl (still drooling with the eye candy hehehehe :-D). On a scale of 1 to 10, Vista gets a 3, Ubuntu 6.06 gets a 7,5.

[tuxcantfly]

Dont know why cause i loaded up kubunto on an old pc and my kids dont touch the windows pc in the kitchen now but instead are pestering me to transplant that as well to kubunto ..6.9.11 and 14 and none of them bar my boy has touched the the windows since Ubu\kubu found it`s way in to our merry household

Most everyday users surely just want to go online and ceck their e-mails etc which is all just as simple on these...It`s an EVEN BETTER choice i reckon for folks who just want to do the above....At least then they dont need to worry about all the extra nonsense that needs implemented before it`s even safe to do those things on a windows pc

exactly how many 6 year olds know how to or are willing to reformat their hard drives and set up ubuntu? your case was special, because you did it for them. but in those households that have windows-using parents, will these 6 year olds have access to ubuntu? no. windows will remain dominant until ubuntu begins shipping preinstalled on computers available on a massive scale, not just by specialty online manufacturers.

[xpod]

exactly how many 6 year olds know how to or are willing to reformat their hard drives and set up ubuntu? your case was special, because you did it for them. but in those households that have windows-using parents, will these 6 year olds have access to ubuntu? no. windows will remain dominant until ubuntu begins shipping preinstalled on computers available on a massive scale, not just by specialty online manufacturers.


I really dont know s**t about any of them to be arguing cases for or against mate. Regardless of wether we`re "special cases" or not i think we`re more likely to stumble across linux\ubunto as apose to making concsious decisions to go out and buy some pre-installed pc with it on....

Most people surely buy a pc regardless of the term" OS" so unless like me they went looking to see what the other 10% were using or they came across it it`s never going to be something they even think about....
What you describe just aint going to happen as thats all about money and who even cares about "market shares".
I just care about saving money,happy kids and the freedom and sense of community spirit i see on here.
My kids are usually pretty good judges so if they seem to be thinking what im thinking then thats good enough for me........THAT will always beat "vista" in this share o the market.

And my 11 & 14 year olds certainly know how to "format";)

EDIT: and of course those that like it can do as i do and "pass the iso around"....mabey show some friends let the inlaws see.
Every little bit counts........
who cares about those that cant or dont..ALL that matters are those that do and those that try

[b_martinez]

I think that as long as the terminal remains as the best way to get things done you will never see the general public choose ubuntu, or any distro, over windows. It might be faster, more stable and give you all these options but an OS needs to be idiot proof, or a least seem to be simple.

I think you would all be a bit dissapointed with a version that really appealed to the average user, it would probally feel limited.

I've read a lot of this. All I can say is [quote:
Anyone who tries to make anything "idiot proof" has no idea of the caliber of idiots we're dealing with.
:end-quote]

Sorry , I had to throw that in. I know it doesn't help.
:>P
Bill

[Imsati]

<sings>

This is the thread that doesn't end...
It just goes on and on my friend...
Some people started posting to it not knowing what it was...
And they'll continue posting it forever just because...

This is the thread that doesn't end...
It just goes...

<walks away snickering>

If you had young children 15 years ago...you're all hating me for sparking that up again :evil:

~Jay (loved The Elephant Show, BTW)

[swaaye]

Well, if you blindly ignore that insanely massive software base of Windows and that nearly every single store out there sells stuff that's basically only compatible with Windows. And if you ignore that basically no new hardware ships with quality, supported, functional Linux drivers. Hardware as in consumer electronics, not just computer peripherals/hardware.

And lets not forget that Linux is stuck in the past with its philosophy of power thru a console. That right there is like the "anti-simple". Editing conf files and looking up howtos doesn't cut it for the vast majority.

Other than those "minor" quirks, Linux is very interesting. Is it an OS ready for any level of mainstream adoption by laypeoeple? Hell no. Unless said layperson is extremely limited in system usage scope and doesn't stray from what works off the bat.

Preinstallation is a requirement. Massive support from all hardware makers is as well. Otherwise Ubuntu will simply go nowhere other than the desktops of us power users. That's really how Linux has been from the beginning IMO.

The problem is that companies are out to make a buck. Linux loves to be free and it's tough to make money on that. Linux will really need to solidify as an effort, instead of a zillion distros, and pull together a completely functional alternative that will run everything Windows does to get the initial foothold. It's a huge barrier to entry. Once people are able to do everything they want, then Linux can start to do its own thing.

[Frak]

Well, if you blindly ignore that insanely massive software base of Windows and that nearly every single store out there sells stuff that's basically only compatible with Windows. And if you ignore that basically no new hardware ships with quality, supported, functional Linux drivers. Hardware as in consumer electronics, not just computer peripherals/hardware.

And lets not forget that Linux is stuck in the past with its philosophy of power thru a console. That right there is like the "anti-simple". Editing conf files and looking up howtos doesn't cut it for the vast majority.

Other than those "minor" quirks, Linux is very interesting. Is it an OS ready for any level of mainstream adoption by laypeoeple? Hell no. Unless said layperson is extremely limited in system usage scope and doesn't stray from what works off the bat.

Preinstallation is a requirement. Massive support from all hardware makers is as well. Otherwise Ubuntu will simply go nowhere other than the desktops of us power users. That's really how Linux has been from the beginning IMO.

The problem is that companies are out to make a buck. Linux loves to be free and it's tough to make money on that. Linux will really need to solidify as an effort, instead of a zillion distros, and pull together a completely functional alternative that will run everything Windows does to get the initial foothold. It's a huge barrier to entry. Once people are able to do everything they want, then Linux can start to do its own thing.

You really need to think about that,
you probobly haven't used Ubuntu for long, if we could just get ONE MANUFACTURER to pre-install Ubuntu (not just System76) then I think people would see the light; my mom, who is not very good with computers, just picked it up, with very little instruction, and went to work.

I think if people would just see the light, and not be scared of change, would be amazed at what they had been missing.(At least I did anyways):)

[max.diems]

This needs to be moved to the new windows subforum. If I can, tell me how, otherwise, mods-- your job.

[cunawarit]

How else are we supposed to get people to use Linux? People complain when we talk about Windows not being as good, they want to no advantages of Linux.
The thing is that nobody likes being preached to, it seems fairly obvious to me that just about everyone here is using Linux already. Why preach to the converted?

I personally use both Windows and Linux, I am fairly new to Linux and at home I now use it virtually exclusively. But that doesn’t mean I don’t like Windows, that I think it is useless, that it is too expensive, or that I despise Microsoft.

Quite the contrary, I like many aspects of Windows, I really really REALLY like some Microsoft products (Visual Studio 2005 comes to mind). That doesn’t preclude me from seeing the faults with some of their software either.

[randomnumber]

For some reason to me vista sounds like it is going to have a bad opinion about it when it launches.

It's been delayed forever.

MS's ME left a bad tast for any one who got stuck with it.
NT & 2000 sucked.- worse drivers then linux in the days of old.
XP was a slow migration but XP was a decent OS.

Another problem for MS is that XP exists. As much as I hate to admit it XP is a good OS. This becomes a problem for MS becuase of the why upgrade attitude. When 95 came out it replaces crapy 3.1. When 98 came out it replaced the always crashing 95. The whole time between 98 and XP was a dry run for MS even though they had plunty of OS releases.

The only reason it will sell is that pc manufactures are going to include it with the new pc's becuase it is the BBD (bigger better deal). The other reason it will sell is that all the copyrighted material (music, movies, software ) will again only want to support vista because vista offers "them" more control. ("them" = recording industry, etc)

( A side note ) I find the news dealing with vista between symantic and ms interesting the.

As much as I have heard about vista, I have heard of nothing new that would make me want it over my XP os. Yes, I have xp. I started with xp and went to dual boot and I am close to removing it from my desktop. The only thing that seem significant is the os spyware and a "pretty" gui. The "pretty" gui looks terrible to me and makes me think of what they did with xp release. Ms sold XP to you and then tried to sell you themes and screen savers.


I am really looking forward to the day that ms does something that angers the pubic enough to switch. Maybe, charge a subscription fee.

Please understand these are my opinions only and I am not a fan of MS. Sorry for the rambling.

[komaroveli]

i'm running exclusively Edgy on my laptop, and i can't think of reason of using other OS. often people mention games...long leave PS2 and now with PS3 - why oh why you would play games on the computer.
one thing is the shame though - we buy hardware, we pay for it and manufacturers have no decency to supply us with drivers suitable for linux. once this will happens...

[haxer]

One thing is certain isnt windows vista like using 1024 mb ram to run it? Dont know but i think i saw it somewhere thats like hugh is that to cover up their **** make people buy more ram instead of moving to freedom and wallet suxes? \\:D/ :cool:

[Naralas]

Why does it always come back to the games? "Linux cant support all my games!!! zomg"

If you wanna play games, buy a Wii.
Linux has enough things to keep me entertained during loadtimes.

[3rdalbum]

I'm a salesperson at an electrical store. I must say that I'm really looking forward to when Windows Vista is released (not). All the customers who bought hi-definition TVs to use as computer monitors are probably going to call us up and complain when Windows Vista refuses to display HD video on these screens.

Virtually no large displays support that DRM technology that Vista is going to use; at least few in Australia. Heck, there are still new computers being sold here with only 256 megs of RAM!

[electrogeek]

Thought you might want to see a post I wrote regarding the way Microsoft's licensing tactics are making it easy for end users to choose the Linux O.S. such as Ubuntu. I do give Ubuntu a nice plug in the post. Enjoy!
http://electrogeek.com/blog/2006/10/25/is-microsoft-pushing-customers-to-linux/

[Shay Stephens]

It pushed me to linux, and my parents too. Greed and arrogance can make people and organizations act wacky. Even if this is just a ploy to make the rental scheme they come out with seem better by comparison, it's still driving me away. And not just driving me away, it is making me campaign against it to anyone who will listen.

[JAPrufrock]

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!

[electrogeek]

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!

I make my living off of Microsoft however I will be setting up my first Ubuntu PC soon. I can't wait. I only have a few concerns such as running graphics apps,acounting apps, etc. Is there a way to run windows apps on Ubuntu? WINE perhaps? I'm sure my love for Linux will blossom very quickly once I get it all figured out.

[Dr. C]

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!

So Microsoft's anti piracy program is doing what it is supposed to do: Stop software piracy! You now have a properly licensed operating system on your computer.

[Polygon]

yes they are pushing users to linux/mac. Without its horribly coded operating system and wonderful features like bsod's and this wonderful login bug that i get now (every time i switch users or log out i have to restart the computer to log back in cause it rejects any password that i give it even if its correct for ALL accounts), i would of never of found out and installed ubuntu. thanks microsoft!

[H.E. Pennypacker]

I make my living off of Microsoft however I will be setting up my first Ubuntu PC soon. I can't wait. I only have a few concerns such as running graphics apps,acounting apps, etc. Is there a way to run windows apps on Ubuntu? WINE perhaps? I'm sure my love for Linux will blossom very quickly once I get it all figured out.

Just make sure to take your time, and to not rush yourself. Also, ease yourself into Linux. Don't wipe out your Windows install as soon as you're done installing Ubuntu. Give yourself several months to see there's nothing you'll miss from Windows. Even then, still keep Windows to a side, in case of emergencies.

You can use Wine, but make sure to read more about it before jumping into Wine. It is truly amazing in what it can do, but it is still beta software, and doesn't deliver up to the expectations of many people.

Also, do your research with regards to applications available on Linux. See what you need, do a search on a website like GnomeFiles.org to look for something matching your description, and check out an application's official website. See what features that application has, and if it meets your needs. These features will also be listed on that particular applications GnomeFiles.org listing, but the official application website always provides more information.

Most important of all, as I said before, ease yourself into Linux. I enjoy using Ubuntu, but don't get your hopes up. In all aspects of life, keep expectations low, including when dealing with computers (Windows, Linux, Macs, etc). That's my attitude in life.

[aysiu]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating, apparently.

Microsoft is, in fact, pushing customers to Linux--not in statistically significant numbers, though.

Preinstallation for the home market (via Dell) and a stronghold (by inertia) on the corporate desktop keep Windows entrenched on most people's PCs. People will keep running Windows XP until they feel their computers are "too old." And then they'll buy computers that have Vista preinstalled.

Many people will get upset by WGA and "anti-piracy" measures, but most will throw their hands up in the air, "Ah, what can you do?" That's a rhetorical question. They don't want to hear you say, "Well, install a Linux distro, of course." Even now, a lot of people I know get annoyed by DRM... but they continue to buy music from iTunes Music Store. They feel it's the only way. Likewise, many users feel Windows is the only way. They won't even switch to Mac (which they've heard of), let alone Linux (which they haven't heard of).

Naturally, as even is happening now, there are the curious Windows power users who will say, "What the heck! I'll give this... desktop Linux a shot." But they are not the vast majority of users.

[tubasoldier]

I make my living off of Microsoft however I will be setting up my first Ubuntu PC soon. I can't wait. I only have a few concerns such as running graphics apps,acounting apps, etc. Is there a way to run windows apps on Ubuntu? WINE perhaps? I'm sure my love for Linux will blossom very quickly once I get it all figured out.

Welcome to Linux. When it comes to those windows apps I would also reccomend into looking into the linux equvalents. You may find after a bit of use or trial that some of the linux apps may fit your needs better. I found that to be especially true with CD burning. I have also found that to be true with instant messengers.
For graphics apps, well, not sure exactly what kind of graphics apps you mean. Gimp for image editing. Digicam and Fspot for image organization. And of course there are all sorts of viewers out there.
For accounting definitely look into gnucash. There is also a bunch of personal/business financial/accounting software. Just search for it in Synaptic.
Anyhoo, good luck with your linux exploration.

[tubasoldier]

Naturally, as even is happening now, there are the curious Windows power users who will say, "What the heck! I'll give this... desktop Linux a shot." But they are not the vast majority of users.

Quite true about not being the majority. However, the power users are the ones who help their neighbors, friends, and family when they have pc issues. This really is a good thing. Get the power users to linux and it will have a strong support base. Not that it doesnt already.

I honestly think Linux on the Desktop will not be a huge conversion. There will never be a "Year of the Linux Desktop" as is prophecied every January. But it will be by one person here and one person there that linux will soon be a major player in the OS market.

Only by small and simple things do great things come to pass.

[cunawarit]

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!

I can’t understand how people can be so blasé about stealing!

Even though I am annoyed by some anti-piracy features that overly interfering, I for one am glad that at least one pirate was successfully made to get legal software for his machine.

[hinne]

Each time I read the hullabaloo about the new MS licensing I have the same thought: Do I care? Since home is fully ubuntu now the answer is no.

I'll have to sign one of the agreements to get Vista to run on the work computer, but that's it!

[lwr]

A few months ago I was running XP and a message from Microsoft popped up on my screen - "Get Genuine" (yes, I was using a bootlegged copy). Anyway, I got Ubuntu instead!!

I did exactly the same thing. Now I'm in a position where I can get a free licensed copy of XP, and I'll soon be able to get Vista. I've tried Vista RC1, and there's no way I would switch to either version of Windows. Thanks to Microsoft for pushing me towards Linux, and showing me the light!

I can’t understand how people can be so blasé about stealing!

Even though I am annoyed by some anti-piracy features that overly interfering, I for one am glad that at least one pirate was successfully made to get legal software for his machine.

It's not necessarily the person who's running the OS's fault if it's pirated. I got my computer of my sister, who got it off a friend, and you just assume it's legal. JAPrufrock clearly does care to some extent whether his software's legal or not, because he could have always hacked round it.

[Carrots171]

I've said this before, but it bears repeating, apparently.

Microsoft is, in fact, pushing customers to Linux--not in statistically significant numbers, though.

Preinstallation for the home market (via Dell) and a stronghold (by inertia) on the corporate desktop keep Windows entrenched on most people's PCs. People will keep running Windows XP until they feel their computers are "too old." And then they'll buy computers that have Vista preinstalled.

Many people will get upset by WGA and "anti-piracy" measures, but most will throw their hands up in the air, "Ah, what can you do?" That's a rhetorical question. They don't want to hear you say, "Well, install a Linux distro, of course." Even now, a lot of people I know get annoyed by DRM... but they continue to buy music from iTunes Music Store. They feel it's the only way. Likewise, many users feel Windows is the only way. They won't even switch to Mac (which they've heard of), let alone Linux (which they haven't heard of).

Naturally, as even is happening now, there are the curious Windows power users who will say, "What the heck! I'll give this... desktop Linux a shot." But they are not the vast majority of users.

The original poster and the blog post never stated that Microsoft is pushing desktop customers to Linux. Microsoft may very well be pushing a substantial amount of customers in the server and embedded devices market to Linux through it's liscensing practices. In those areas, Linux is an option most customers would consider.

[JAPrufrock]

Time will tell. I think that there are two important unknowns. One is how "user friendly" Ubuntu and other distros become over the next few years (even though many of us like it the way it is right now). The other is how much Microsoft "abuses" XP and Vista users. Recently it's become pretty abusive.

Originally Posted by cunawarit View Post
I can’t understand how people can be so blasé about stealing!

Even though I am annoyed by some anti-piracy features that overly interfering, I for one am glad that at least one pirate was successfully made to get legal software for his machine.

I considered it to be my duty; otherwise I would have been explicitly supporting the largest monopoly in the world (which you obviously did).

One more thing: I live in Costa Rica and the majority of PCs sold here are clones. Because it's a relatively poor country (compared to the US) most computer vendors package pirated copies of XP, in order to keep costs down. So most Costa Ricans who use PCs with pirated copies.

[cunawarit]

I considered it to be my duty; otherwise I would have been explicitly supporting the largest monopoly in the world (which you obviously did).

Abusive or not you have a choice; nobody forces anyone to use Windows. I may think Mercedes Benz is “abusive” but that doesn’t mean I will make it “my duty” to steal cars off dealer’s forecourts. And FWIW as a Windows user I do not feel abused.

One more thing: I live in Costa Rica and the majority of PCs sold here are clones. Because it's a relatively poor country (compared to the US) most computer vendors package pirated copies of XP, in order to keep costs down. So most Costa Ricans who use PCs with pirated copies.

I have never been to Costa Rica, but I have been to Venezuela (in fact, I grew up there) plenty of times and that's where most of my family live. It is the same situation there with most people using pirated software, I don’t think in many cases it is an excuse, as many who can afford it also pirate. There are people who truly can’t afford the software that they need, but that is no different in the USA or Europe. I would love Visual Studio 2005 Professional at home, yet I haven’t got £600 to buy it, so I have to use Visual Studio Express. Why should some person in Latin America have access to the Professional edition for $5?

Anyway, you have now done the right thing and installed legal software on your machine. Hopefully more people will start doing the same.

I love the fact that Ubuntu is promoting open source software in the developing world, sadly also think that there needs to be a serious culture change in countries where the vast majority of people don’t see anything even remotely wrong with stealing software.

[Sef]

sadly also think that there needs to be a serious culture change in countries where the vast majority of people don’t see anything even remotely wrong with stealing software.

In many nonrich countries, the choice with using Microsoft software comes down to putting food on the table for your family and getting a pirated copy of Windows or buying a legal copy and not not having food on the table.

[cunawarit]

In many nonrich countries, the choice with using Microsoft software comes down to putting food on the table for your family and getting a pirated copy of Windows or buying a legal copy and not not having food on the table.

As I said before, I don’t buy that one.

You are forgetting I have lived for many years in a “non-rich” country, and I know for a fact that the many, perhaps even the majority, of people buying pirated software cheaply are middle class people. People with nice houses, nice cars, nice TVs, and computers.

Do poor people in the UK own PCs? Yes. Do poor Venezuelans own PCs? Very very few if any. Poor people over there have much bigger worries than the price of Windows!

Many don’t even have a reliable power supply, if they have power at all. And in any case these are not the people I am talking about. If you live in a shantytown and steal your electricity, I am not condemning you. That’s is born out of necessity and it is exactly what I would do in their situation.

However, I know of rich people with profitable businesses, who own large houses, drive $50k cars; and they still steal software. Why? Because there is a pirating culture and it isn’t seen as being wrong.

I honestly believe that very few private individuals are ever forced to make the decision of whether they feed their family or buy Windows. Most people with PCs in the developing world are not poor, they are rich. I am not condemning anyone who does something out of necessity, what I am condemning is the generalized piracy that I see there every time I go. The way even business buy pirated software worth thousands and think nothing of it.

If we are talking about schools, universities, charities, etc… That is a different matter altogether. That’s where projects like Ubuntu and the $100 laptop come in.

FWIW, XP Starter Edition is very cheap ($30-$40), and bundled with cheap PCs over there.

[Brunellus]

Too many people here are focusing on the individual consumer. Let me clue you all in on a secret: the individual consumer doesnt' matter.

How's that?

The restrictive licensing terms that govern Microsoft operating systems are essentially irrelevant to individual consumers. Thousands of pirates continue to exist and prosper, and Microsoft is really powerless to stop them. Legal action is expensive, and the sheer number of pirates makes prosecuting them all a burdensome and inefficient exercise.

No, Microsoft would rather go after the major players--large organizations. Businesses and other large organizations have bigger IT needs--more people, more seats, more licenses. They are easier to track down and hold to account--the BSA (that's Business Software Association, not Boy Scouts of America, but these days the difference might be inconsequential) can show up and "audit" a business at any time.

The burden of complying with all of these licenses eventually adds up. It's only a matter of time before businesses--like guitar-string maker Ernie Ball, Co.-- conclude that the costs of compliance are too high and move towards free software.

[Lexam]

Hi my name is Patrick I am a Pirate. I have been clean for about a year now. I used to pirate anything and everything XP, MS Office, Photoshop. It didn't matter what the software was I would pirate it. Finally I decided enough was enough. Either I change or my life would be ruined. I started out small, using steps. First Open Office, then Gimp and finally I am completely free using Ubuntu. Some days are harder than others but I look to a higher Operating System to carry me through. :mrgreen:

Microsoft did not push me to linux, Ubuntu Pulled me into it's embrace.:-D

[maniacmusician]

I agree, Brunellus. Those licensing terms aren't meant for the average user at all, and Windows can't stop piracy (nor can anyone else, short of taking down the entire internet. and even then; there's still other contraband to pirate).

As for the ethics or piracy, you really can't hold other people to your own moral standards, cunawarit. You may believe that piracy is wrong, other people may not. Some might be in between. Ethics are unique to each individual. That's how it's always been, and always will be.

[Shay Stephens]

Quite true about not being the majority. However, the power users are the ones who help their neighbors, friends, and family when they have pc issues. This really is a good thing. Get the power users to linux and it will have a strong support base. Not that it doesnt already.

I honestly think Linux on the Desktop will not be a huge conversion. There will never be a "Year of the Linux Desktop" as is prophecied every January. But it will be by one person here and one person there that linux will soon be a major player in the OS market.

Only by small and simple things do great things come to pass.
I agree, the power users are influential, and when a critical mass is achieved, they drive a lot of normal users decisions. And when something goes wrong, and you recommend they reinstall with ubuntu, they say "ok, whatever you think is best" and bam, they are switched.

No, Microsoft has gone too far, and it is going to hurt them.

[aysiu]

The original poster and the blog post never stated that Microsoft is pushing desktop customers to Linux. Microsoft may very well be pushing a substantial amount of customers in the server and embedded devices market to Linux through it's liscensing practices. In those areas, Linux is an option most customers would consider. I disagree.

Many critics of Vista have focused on negative features such as restrictive licensing which restricts the end user from moving the Vista O.S. from one PC to another more than once. In a previous post I listed what I felt were the Top 5 Reasons NOT to Upgrade to Windows Vista. Some readers have agreed and some disagreed with my findings. Is it my imagination or does it seem as if Microsoft is pushing the limits and testing the waters to see how far its end users can be pushed? With the recent releases of Ubuntu 6.06 LTS Linux Desktop, the alternatives to Windows based operating systems are becoming quite attractive. This is especially true if you are a business owner with multiple PC’s. There are definite advantages to running Windows based operating systems such as universal hardware compatibility, a huge base of compatible software applications and ease of installation to name a few. I realize the blog is called Smartphone and Gadget News, but are you honestly going to tell me that the words I bolded refer servers and embedded devices?

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Hi my name is Patrick I am a Pirate. I have been clean for about a year now. I used to pirate anything and everything XP, MS Office, Photoshop. It didn't matter what the software was I would pirate it. Finally I decided enough was enough. Either I change or my life would be ruined. I started out small, using steps. First Open Office, then Gimp and finally I am completely free using Ubuntu. Some days are harder than others but I look to a higher Operating System to carry me through. :mrgreen:

Microsoft did not push me to linux, Ubuntu Pulled me into it's embrace.:-D

I just love this post! I wish we could reform more and more users like Lexam.

End software piracy by embracing open source.

[JAPrufrock]

You are forgetting I have lived for many years in a “non-rich” country, and I know for a fact that the many, perhaps even the majority, of people buying pirated software cheaply are middle class people. People with nice houses, nice cars, nice TVs, and computers.

I consider Venezuela to be a relatively "rich" less-developed country (lots of oil). In Costa Rica many people from the middle class can't afford cars, and Costa Rica is not an especially poor Central American country. For a small businessman here to be competitive nowadays it helps to have a computerized business. But a computer, with software, would represent a significant amount of his/her operating budget. For many, pirated software is the only option. It doesn't help either that non-pirated software, in US$, costs almost the same here as in the US. Taking into consideration the differences in the standard of living, you could say that software costs a lot more here (3-5 times higher?). In Nicaragua in would be even higher than that (10 times more?).

I wonder what the effect Microsoft et. al. has on small businessmen in less developed countries. Because software is so expensive for them to buy, they are at a competitive disadvantage in relation to developed countries. One effect of the monopolistic practices of companies like MS might be a widening of the gap in the standard of living between developed and less developed countries. Of course the way people get around it here is to use pirated software. I read somewhere that about 40% of all XP copies are "not Genuine". I assume that the percent is much higher here and in less-developed countries.

I think that there is a huge potential market for Linux in Latin America. If Microsoft is able to "tighten up" on pirated software here, (with the Costarican government's help), we'll see a lot more people switching to Linux.

Regarding the ethical question of who is on the higher moral ground- a monopoly that keeps reinventing the wheel so that it can make obscene profits, or someone who uses software pirated from that same company, I'll defer to maniacmusician:
As for the ethics or piracy, you really can't hold other people to your own moral standards...

[MedivhX]

It has pushed me to Linux, but it pushes some to MacOS (that is even worse)

[cosmint_1973]

I first saw a live Linux CD at work 3 months ago. It was Knoppix. Then I downloaded Ubuntu Dapper and decided never to return to Windows at home, after using Windows XP Professional. What helped me a lot into taking this decision was the excellent forum and site support for Ubuntu, Kubuntu and co.
And yesterday I found out that Microsoft has postponed XP service Pack 3 until … 2008 ! How about the users who paid for their licenses ? They are ignored in what concerns security updates. And there are many more disappointments on my list. So goodbye Windows, whatever Windows, even Vista.

[MedivhX]

I know that this would be offtopic but i have to say that Vista is already surpassed by Linux

[Smaug067]

My response to this question is a resounding YES!!! First, the pricetag is huge and I am disgusted with having drivers for five million devices I will never own:roll: taking up valuable real estate on my HD.:mad: And this latest crap with "winduhz genuine warez-checker"[-X is IMO just another pain in the neck to contend with, especially when M$ tells me that XP which came pre-bloated on my new box 4 months ago is now pirated!!!:evil: Too many people are complacent and just take whatever Microsquish dishes out without question, because it's "user-friendly".:-? Just wait until they wanna change/fix something that can't be done with a click o' da moose!](*,) I realize most (if not all) new computers will come pre-bloated with Winduznuttin, so I am doing everything in my power to rescue those pitiful hard drives from such a cruel fate![-(

[hobieone]

:-k kinda wonder with microsofts current clarifications on it liscense for vista. being only able to transfer the liscence or reinstall operating the system due to system change/upgrade of components only once period. then but a new copy.

will drive more people to the linux communitty especially the hobbyist and those constantaly upgrading thier systems when the toys are released.

i think it will. and we may see an increase in theinterest of linux. or what microsoft may see thier problem with people pirating thier os go thru the roof and multiply exponentialy due people not wanting to fork out 300 to 500 bucks every other reinstall.

just curious how any out ther is thinking like me and will see this happening

[tronica]

i think we will see more people switching, but i think the majority will stick with XP awhile longer. just my opinion. But for me, i'm sticking with *nix:-D

[jinx099]

being only able to transfer the liscence or reinstall operating the system due to system change/upgrade of components only once period. then but a new copy.

That is insane, I know I'm not buying a copy. I reinstall windows every few months. I have XP only for games, and I fear that DX10 games may force me to "upgrade" to vista. Hopefully DX10 will come to XP as well... :-|

[hobieone]

yeah the license issue was the main thing that turned me from it and that fact it seems to be murder on a hard drive it tends to keep it spun up constantly altho that just could be something with the release canidate.

but yeah i'm staying with my win xp partition for game for awhile too i think. but unfortunatly microsoft did state that dx will not be released for xp. andthere are game developers out that are upset that direct x10 isn't backwards compatible. which is why most newer games wont run it like battle field 2142 which was released last week wont install on vista due too direct x 10 conflicting with dx 9. and forcing software comapanies to make two different windows versions of the same game. which i know the mmorpg are throwing a fit right now cause either they have pick which windows customers can use thier game and screw the rest on the other windows system or run duplicate servers for each os and segragating windows users. this and the extremly high cost of the os in my opinion is where microsoft may have step on there own foot. and prevent alot from upgrading i think

[3rdalbum]

Every time a new operating system comes out that obseletes some computers, the Linux community gets new users. It's a fact of life, and one that I'm looking forward to for Vista.

[jinx099]

It is sad that MS has such a monopoly in the market that they can get away with crap like this. More linux users would definitley be good, but I really dont like MS's attitude on this kind of stuff. Vista is a step in the way wrong direction because of MS's poor choices. I'm waiting for the day when a virus comes out that breaks everyones Vista activation rendering their product key void.

[Sunnz]

Some users may switch to OSX: http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-OS-X-Karma-Check-18214.shtml

I find it pretty cool that while MS is try all they can do limit what a person can do, while all Apple do is to write a little poet about it!!!

[cunawarit]

I haven't read the license, but if what is said here is accurate, it does seem a little... Moronic... Given that Windows gets all the gamers that are constantly upgrading hardware, the sort of guys who spend $1000 on hardware every couple of months might get into difficulty trying to stay legit.

PS: There's a few more details here (http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9004498&pageNumber=1). It really won't affect me as I am not a gamer and I can't image transfering Vista more than once during its lifetime.

I have to admit though, I had been planning to save the pennies to upgrade ASAP, and I have a little less insentive to now. Might aswell sit back and see how everyone else gets on before jumping in.

[AlphaMack]

I've already told some of my friends that they are on their own if they decide to get Vista. Unfortunately, many of them do not know what "Vista" is, let alone these new draconian terms (on top of WGA and now OGA). Make no mistake that MS will be dumping large amounts of cash on marketing and Vista will be the talk of the town in no time.

It will also be difficult to move the masses away from Windows because of their continued (generalized) beliefs that Macs are overpriced (they are) and crash often (a la OS 9) and Linux is for uber geeks.

[cunawarit]

It will also be difficult to move the masses away from Windows because of their continued (generalized) beliefs that Macs are overpriced (they are)

You are buying into the myth yourself, that used to be the case, however today if you compare high-end Dell models with similarly specced high-end Apple models the Apples work out cheaper.

and Linux is for uber geeks.

Let's face it, that's partly true. Look at this forum, even the people who claim not to be overly technical feel the need to go to a forum to discuss an OS. I bet the marority of Windows users have never discussed Windows in depth, some don't even know what version of Windows they are running, and they don't care.

[_simon_]

Some blurb on the license and a Q&A session with MS Public Relations over it: http://www.techweb.com/wire/software/193403029




TechWeb: What happens if someone adds a hardware upgrade to their PC (like a new graphic (http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.jhtml?term=graphic&x=&y=) card, or a faster processor); does that count as one transfer? If it does, what happens if they do a second upgrade, which is seen by the PC as requiring revalidation. Does this mean they're over the limit and have to purchase a new Vista license?


Microsoft: The hardware tolerance of product activation for Windows Vista has been improved and is more flexible than that for Windows XP. We believe these improvements will better accommodate the needs of our PC enthusiast customers.


When hardware components are changed, Microsoft's product activation process compares information derived from the initial validation, which includes the hardware configuration of the device, against the changes that have been made. This process uses an algorithm (http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.jhtml?term=algorithm&x=&y=) to help assess whether the software is installed on the same device. Validation will fail if the software detects a substantially different hardware configuration.


At that point, the customer is able to use the one reassignment for the new device. If, after using its one reassignment right, a customer again exceeds the tolerance for updated components, the customer can purchase an additional license or seek remediation through Microsoft's support services.


Microsoft cares a great deal for its PC enthusiast customers. In fact, the hardware tolerance of product activation for Windows Vista has been improved and is more flexible than that for Windows XP. We believe these improvements will better accommodate the needs of our PC enthusiast customers.


TechWeb: Will Vista allow these changes without revalidation, or will it ask for re-validation the way XP usually does when you add something, and then you have to call phone support and explain what you did, and if they're okay with it they give you a serial (http://www.techweb.com/encyclopedia/defineterm.jhtml?term=serial&x=&y=) number to type in and successfully proceed with validation?


Microsoft: The process is similar to what it was in XP.


TechWeb: Does Microsoft have any plans to explicitly change the language in the license (http://www.microsoft.com/about/legal/useterms/default.aspx).


Microsoft: No, we have nothing more to share at this time.


TechWeb: How would you like to response to the many users who've been commenting on the Vista Team Blog (http://windowsvistablog.com/blogs/windowsvista/archive/2006/10/10/RC2_2C00_-the-New-York-Times-and-License-Information-for-Windows.aspx)?


Microsoft: We are taking all feedback into account, and are encouraged that so many people are interested in learning more about Windows Vista. We have nothing more to share at this time.

[max.diems]

New stuff in vista...me not using it.

New stuff in ubuntu, freedom!

That's not new...

[deweese]

The thing is that nobody likes being preached to, it seems fairly obvious to me that just about everyone here is using Linux already. Why preach to the converted?

I personally use both Windows and Linux, I am fairly new to Linux and at home I now use it virtually exclusively. But that doesn’t mean I don’t like Windows, that I think it is useless, that it is too expensive, or that I despise Microsoft.

Quite the contrary, I like many aspects of Windows, I really really REALLY like some Microsoft products (Visual Studio 2005 comes to mind). That doesn’t preclude me from seeing the faults with some of their software either.

Believe it or not, there are many of us who love to be preached to.
Our beliefs are confirmed by this.:-k

[kintsa]

I think there is more to windows vista then its licensing. At the end of windows 98s lifecycle I experimented with linux but decided to upgrade to windows xp because functionally it did provide something extra. It was a leap from win 98. I picture a lot of users in the same shoes as I was, try out linux but ending up with vista because it will be, however small, a leap.

A part of the reasons being..
1. Multimedia licensing issue. This whole patent is bad, money has to be paid, use Ogg Vorbis instead is very lousy. Provide basic DVD support and for the other codecs a link to pay and install.. How difficult is that, the end-user had exercised his "freedom" in the end..
2. There are dozens of media players to choose from in linux but all are only as good as the worst on windows. Come on, why dont hackers conc. on making something like mplayer complete and best than write Totem and lot. Ok fine, its their choice, but Canonical and like have to be pragmatic, if its targeting end consumers, they have to give the best when they actually can, not Totem and gstreamer. (All you totem and gst.. fans, compare the video quality and then defend.) WHy cant media players go the OOo and Mozilla way?
3. Finishing quality. Take kde for example. While using system settings or preferences dialog box, its size changes with tabs, n horizontal scroll appears. It is certainly a put-off to not find the apply or cancel button or to have only half of the options text displayed. Impressions are very important. Aesthetics counts. I am bowled over by the Desktop, Menus and all but going a little deeper, things change..

The point I want to make is that a sincere effort has to be put to improve the basic softwares an ordinary user uses. Mozilla and OOo have done half the job, its upto "A" media player to do the rest...

I love linux but its difficult to sell it to people around me, if one of the 1st things they do on a comp. is not working well.

[Coelocanth]

Those 'answers' from MS are non-answers. XP also uses an algorithm to assess whether the software is on a new device or not. Whether the hardware tolerance is more flexible or not, PC enthusiasts are still in for a headache, IMO. Many of them add (or upgrade to) new drives, new video cards, new sound cards, change RAM modules, and even their processors or mobos when new products hit the market. I highly doubt if the OS is going to tolerate much of that. Seems like it's the 'same old, same old' as the XP situation, but much more restrictive with the 'only move to a new machine once' rule. I can see a lot of gaming enthusiasts getting the shaft on this.

[Azakus]

Honestly, the only reason I switched to Linux was after demoing Vista and finding it lacking. Then I saw the EULA, and said "Here I come Linux". And so here I am.

[ShadowVlican]

well unless DX10 games (and games in general :lol: ) function in linux, "enthusiasts" will be forced upon Vista

because those "enthusiasts" that upgrade hardware a lot are the same people that game a lot (other areas of computing require less chasing, such as video work (CPU), 3D Design (professional graphics cards))

[kazuya]

It is healthy to compare and complain. This complaints lead to increased innovation of the linux distros. There has been huge growths in linux. I started off with red hat and had no clue of how to use it at work. I thought to mayself, I would never use this linux thing. Red hat was linux to me. This was in 2001, when most linux distros were still at the CLI. Then three years ago, I somehow made the switch by accident.

I realized that I could do without MS altogether and that I was afforded more applications for free that were even better than the costly apps on the Windows environment.

Some of these apps, I would never dream of purchasing as I could not afford it. The linux movement and being able to use it greatly increased my mastery of what I used and yet was so easy to use, manage, and configure.

With increased knowledge in linux distros usage, I started to be more capable of managing even my colleagues windows PCs.

Now upon being faced with a windows box, I am feel forced to think and act on one thing at a time. In my linux box, I am truly multi-tasking. I can do and run so many apps, multimedia, four videos if I choose to from different desktop windows.

I use superkaramba, gdesklets, kxdocker, etc to make my desktop appear even more beautiful while displaying critical system informations, in windows, we have windowsblind. To use this windows blind, you have to pay for it.

Norton antivirus - for a linux user, what is that., oh for virus. Clamav exists as an option, but not really required. And many more examples.

As a PC user, you have to ask yourself, what do I need a PC for. What are my limitations. Sure windows may have ability to let you do some things you feel you need to have done. But, I have found that working in linux, The distro and community has augmented my knowledge to a point that I do and require a great deal of things that I cannot get on the windows platform. Take the aero glass eye-candy thing on windows {requirement at least 1 GIG RAM or 512} and it is slow. On my 512 MB amd 2500 XP, it runs flawlessly..

I can get my linux box to emulate a win or a mac, a combination, and then there are other looks way beyond what I can get with the other Oses.

Still Vista may have its merits. But to me, like XP, it dimishes my ease of getting apps and removing or replacing them. It is also too slow for my PC, given what I always have running on my PCs {Old and New.}

[Osamabingandhi]

I will tell you that most of the people i know will only move to vista when a cracked version that works arrives. I'm not telling people that this i good, but what microsoft is doing with their monopoly in anything but good and that it can continue this way is quite amazing. I thought US wanted competition, so it would lower price and bring better products, but that is just an idea that don't really work. Monopoly becomes communistic dictatorship in a sense.

I cannot se myself buying vista for anything in the world. I consider myself lucky i am not a serious gamer. But if you have that much money to spend on a computer i guess there is money for the operating system...But the problem comes when schools, government or companies are starting to use vista in a few years. Taxpayers have to put more money into this system, and there is a limit to how much they think is fair. But that will be really good for the linux community, i hope this is the beginning of the Linux era and the decline of MS....

[hobieone]

Some users may switch to OSX: http://news.softpedia.com/news/The-OS-X-Karma-Check-18214.shtml

I find it pretty cool that while MS is try all they can do limit what a person can do, while all Apple do is to write a little poet about it!!!

yes i think the mac os x could give ms a ruunn for its money if they ever released for pc's in general plus eased up there ristriction when it comes to making mac clones. what would interesting to see is the government brek up ms like they did with at&t back when. and see if we start getting other os's releases

[ShadowVlican]

yes i think the mac os x could give ms a ruunn for its money if they ever released for pc's in general plus eased up there ristriction when it comes to making mac clones. what would interesting to see is the government brek up ms like they did with at&t back when. and see if we start getting other os's releases
that would be extremely hard for Apple to do

hardware compatibility is microsoft's FORTE

[Shay Stephens]

I decided about a year ago that Vista was too much for me to stomach. But had I delayed that decision, the news I am reading in recent weeks has shocked me, and no doubt I would have made my move on hearing it.

It really smacks of out of control greed and arrogance. I was a happy Microsoft user up until the year 2000. When word of XP came out, that is when I started to slowly loose faith, trust, and confidence in them. Vista sealed their fate with me and those I can enlighten. I really expect vista to be flop and there to be a backlash of users.

[Shay Stephens]

hardware compatibility is microsoft's FORTE

Not really. That is the case only because the manufacturers provide drivers. If you have a piece of equipment and you lost the driver, you can be up a creek even with windows.

If manufacturers provided drivers for linux, linux would have the same and better hardware compatibility than windows. Even without, look how far it has progressed. Imagine what would happen, and most likely will happen when manufacturers start branching out a bit.

[Reshin]

Not really. That is the case only because the manufacturers provide drivers. If you have a piece of equipment and you lost the driver, you can be up a creek even with windows.

If manufacturers provided drivers for linux, linux would have the same and better hardware compatibility than windows. Even without, look how far it has progressed. Imagine what would happen, and most likely will happen when manufacturers start branching out a bit.

That's exactly what he meant by that...

[3rdalbum]

...and I am disgusted with having drivers for five million devices I will never own:roll: taking up valuable real estate on my HD.:mad:

Well, actually Windows comes with barely any drivers at all, whereas Linux comes with heaps of drivers.

However, if you installed as many drivers on Windows as Linux has by default, they'd take up an enormous amount of space. Because Windows-based drivers are closed-source, there's a lot of "reinventing the wheel".

[Shay Stephens]

That's exactly what he meant by that...
But he gave the credit to Microsoft as if the compatibility was built it, and it is not. There is nothing inherent in windows that makes it more compatible with hardware than Linux. It is only the manufacturers writing drivers for windows and not Linux that makes the difference.

[ShadowVlican]

Not really. That is the case only because the manufacturers provide drivers. If you have a piece of equipment and you lost the driver, you can be up a creek even with windows.

If manufacturers provided drivers for linux, linux would have the same and better hardware compatibility than windows. Even without, look how far it has progressed. Imagine what would happen, and most likely will happen when manufacturers start branching out a bit.
so i had the cause and effect mixed up, sorry :-k

but you understand what i'm saying, sadly that's a BIG IF

that's my only gripe about linux, once that's solved, people can migrate easier and more software will be developed for linux, it'll all solve itself

you can push the blame, but if you go in depth it's a cycle

[aysiu]

People don't migrate--they buy.

Yes, a very small minority of Windows power users will research Linux distributions, download an ISO, figure out how to burn it, set their BIOS to boot from CD, repartition their drives, and install and configure a new operating system.

Most people just use whatever came on the computers they bought. So preinstallation is the way--the only way.

[st00ner]

even when that happens, I still will not use commercial closed source applications. I still operate in the legal grey area for codecs and drivers to avoid DRM. Either the people making the programs open the source, or i dont use it. its that simple. Open Source or die. I have the right when i buy something to see what it does, examine it, at the lowest level posible. There is no room for closed source in gnu/linux, especially comercial apps. Free apps that are open source(and of higher quality) are available anyway. the main issue will be DRM in codecs etc(and games)

[SunnyRabbiera]

I honestly think Vista will wind up like ME, a total flop costing microsoft major cash.
The policies on Vista, the kind of hardware vista will demand... Its going to flop, with the constant recoding and no real improvement over XP Vista will just be pretty colors with no backing.
Microsoft has only thought ahead for Vista but has not thought about what if they have another ME on hand, and it will cost MS dearly if Vista blew up in thier face.

[Reshin]

Believe it or not, there are many of us who love to be preached to.
Our beliefs are confirmed by this.:-k

Propably because you already believe in it? :-k

[electrogeek]

Just make sure to take your time, and to not rush yourself. Also, ease yourself into Linux. Don't wipe out your Windows install as soon as you're done installing Ubuntu. Give yourself several months to see there's nothing you'll miss from Windows. Even then, still keep Windows to a side, in case of emergencies.

You can use Wine, but make sure to read more about it before jumping into Wine. It is truly amazing in what it can do, but it is still beta software, and doesn't deliver up to the expectations of many people.

Also, do your research with regards to applications available on Linux. See what you need, do a search on a website like GnomeFiles.org to look for something matching your description, and check out an application's official website. See what features that application has, and if it meets your needs. These features will also be listed on that particular applications GnomeFiles.org listing, but the official application website always provides more information.

Most important of all, as I said before, ease yourself into Linux. I enjoy using Ubuntu, but don't get your hopes up. In all aspects of life, keep expectations low, including when dealing with computers (Windows, Linux, Macs, etc). That's my attitude in life.

I installed WINE on 6.10 Edgy but I don;t think it's supported. It may only be supported on 6.06 LTS. How do you install Windows apps with WINE after it's installed?

[aysiu]

I installed WINE on 6.10 Edgy but I don;t think it's supported. It may only be supported on 6.06 LTS. How do you install Windows apps with WINE after it's installed?
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/wine

[Brunellus]

I installed WINE on 6.10 Edgy but I don;t think it's supported. It may only be supported on 6.06 LTS. How do you install Windows apps with WINE after it's installed?
WINE Is Not an Emulator, naturally. It should also be noted that WINP--that is to say, WINE Is Not Perfect or WINE Is Not a Panacea.

WINE is a last-resort tool for me. It's been much easier to assume that windows software will NOT work and then end up discovering that it does, than it is to assume the opposite.

Those who assume that WINE somehow magically gives them Windows without problems are setting themselves up for failure.

[Syirrus]

I have been switching back and forth between Linux and Windows for years. Primarily I use windows, however this was slowly changing. One of my biggest gripes about Linux was the slow window redrawing (exception Blackbox Fluxbox and XFCE :) ) and lack of support for newer hardware (beyond basic suport). I installed Vista and thought, well this is not so bad..., but why would I purchase it?? It's is just XP with more bloated code. I then installed a alpha version of Dapper on my computer with XGL/Compiz working and I made an:

18985

I was shocked! MS hyped up the Vista's GUI as something big and Compiz/Beryl put it to shame. Not to mention you can use a cheap Nvidia or ATI card and enjoy all of the eye candy unlike with Vista. Ubuntu even runs faster with the eye candy! Ubuntu will become my primary OS now.

Syirrus

[jinx099]

Why does it always come back to the games? "Linux cant support all my games!!! zomg"

If you wanna play games, buy a Wii.
Linux has enough things to keep me entertained during loadtimes.

Theres 2 types of gamers, PC gamers and console gamers. I'm a PC gamer, and I will not be satisfied with a Wii, Xbox, or PS2/3. I like playing games on my PC and that is the only reason why I still have a Windows partition. I hope that Vista is a flop and gets more people to switch to Linux or a Mac so developers will develop for the growing market, even if its in addition to Windows. Props to ID for their linux versions.

[SunnyRabbiera]

Vista really doesnt offer much more then XP, and what it features is what Linux has had for over a year now.
Vista is no improvement over Xp, and its about time MS realised that...
I wish they would just backport to XP, XP is good enough for them.

[jkvv_1973]

realistically (not that Ive taken a survey) linux is not part of the vocabulary of the common household (wife/soccer mom and +kids)....the shopper (naive-noob) would go into the store (after his/her pc just crashed and burned) and look around for a new pc (doesnt want to be bothered by things they dont know/understand or takes too much time to understand like"what's linux"?????) so the common option (bestbuy-compusa...etc) would be windows...or maybe MAC (which I thought was the best alt OS before I discovered Ubuntu some months ago -dapper)

although word of mouth is a good way to spread Ubuntu (its happening) - penetrate the these retail stores/market (i remember walmart selling lindows but never became pop -but alot would agree that lindows sux)

[petermck]

Anyone starting a fresh business would be mad to trap themselves into a windows world when there is a viable alternative in Ubuntu or some of the other Linux/Open source alternatives.
Even a small business with a dozen or so people can save thousands on licensing costs with no loss of functionality.
As for desktop performance, I have a dual boot Ubuntu/Windows Vista setup on both a PC and a Laptop. Both perform better running Ubuntu.

[BLTicklemonster]

The closer that Ubuntu gets to what I think the goal is (never really looked to see tbhwy), the more people will start coming over. Sure, hard core gamers will have to stick to windows for a good bit longer, but your average user will one day be able to just (and they pretty much can already) install ubuntu and run with it. Seamless integration of stuff like email clients and wireless card recognition, video drivers (tseliot's on a roll, as are EasyUbuntu, Automatix, and AfterBirth) and such will make ubuntu a viable alternative (as if it's not already for a majority of people) to anything windows can throw at us. Let us pat ourselves on our backs, we've backed the right horse.

[Asham]

Depends on how and why you use your box.

Vista is for users who have little or no interest in sys admin/configuration, they expect their box to "just work". They often prefer new hardware and possibly spend the majority of their computer time with games. By the nature of hardware/software development Microsoft will be ahead, after all Vista (software) has been in development with new hardware for how long now? Open source starts software development once the hardware is released to the public so there is always a lag. This is unlikely to change and this is part of what I consider "unethical conduct" via Microsoft and hardware developers.

If all new computers came with Ubuntu installed and you had to pay, download, and install Vista there would be an immediate conversion of computer users to Linux. Just as most do not know how to install Linux, most would not even know how to install Vista. Have you ever installed Windows? It is a pain in the a**. Then usually you have to install a number of drivers. Oh it is all so easy when it is all done for you, but what if you had to install from scratch (like you did Ubuntu) and, by the way, do not overwrite Ubuntu. Now you would have the same problems with installing Vista on an Ubuntu box as you now have personally installing Ubuntu on a Windows box. Resize, patition, install, install a boot loader, install windows drivers. Grub will boot windows, but will windows boot Ubuntu? This is the second part of what I consider "unethical behavior" on the part of Microsoft and hardware manufacturers. A hardware manufacturers should AT LEAST OFFER TO INSTALL AN CONFIGURE LINUX FOR THE SAME COST THE CHARGE TO INSTALL AND CONFIGURE WINDOWS, which is either nothing or hidden in the cost of a box. [I am not talking about a Vista license, just the cost of installation and configuration as Vista comes pre-installed and pre-configured, optimized to your hardware no less, not on a CD/DVD with a no OS box].

If you want a fair comparison you have to have the same starting point.

If you start with an OS installed an optimized by the hardware manufacturer at at the time of sale, Ubuntu, with modern hardware and appropriate Linux 3D drivers (open source or otherwise), will give Vista a run for the money.

If you start with a new NO OS box, blank, unformatted HD, and your need to buy/download a OS, install, and configure all you new 3D hardware, Ubuntu will give Vista a run for the money.

The problem you have is you seem to be unfamiliar with Linux and you have had someone else install an optimize Vista for you. Is there any wonder you think Vista is so much better then Ubuntu?

In essence you are asking, Is it worth my time to install and learn a new OS or do I prefer to have someone else do it for me and continue with an OS with which I am familiar?

Ubuntu is for users who take an interest in how and why their OS works. Then there is the commitment to open source. System configuration is much easier in Linux. Don't believe me install a new video card and install some Windows drivers for yourself to make the compairison. Although the "plug and play" of Windows is impressive, what to do if it fails? Ubuntu has some fairly impressive plug-and-play technology and where this fails there is often a plain text configuration file somewhere. Security? Well most acknowledge Windows has a ways to go. In these aspects Ubuntu is ahead of Windows.

Running Ubuntu is not as "convenient" if you are not familiar with the OS and are not willing to learn. Ubuntu is not a mindless as Vista and will take some effort. You should only make the compairison once you have the same familiarity with Ubuntu as you do with Windows XP, otherwise you do not know what you are not comparing two OS, you are comparing familiarity. Since you are unfamiliar with Ubuntu, Ubuntu loses. This is not comparing Ubuntu to Vista, this is just old fashioned laziness on your part.

More and more, little by little, computer users are finding Ubuntu is not so hard. Little by little, brick by brick the Microsoft empire is crumbling. Sell your stock while it still has value.

Very well put. I've highlighted the points that I feel are most important. Cheers to a very well-written and well-analyzed post! =D>

[JayTee]

I love Ubuntu so don't get me wrong here but I have to say that the average user would not spend over 8 hours reading threads on this board and trying everything they could find that was pertinent in order to get their 19" widescreen monitor working with Ubuntu. True enough that there were other factors involved than the default install since I'm running Beryl with XGL with the latest Nvidia drivers BUT and I must point this out, the same exact monitor took less than one minute to configure in Vista. For XP it took a little longer as I needed to update the video driver (wow, two clicks, one to download and one to install, that was so hard) I counted at least 10 backup copies of my xorg.conf file that were created as I struggled with something that some here claim to be so easy. It's not always as simple as "Just run sudo dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xorg" and often even that isn't simple enough for the average user. With the huge installed base of Windows, the uniformity of one desktop instead of Gnome, KDE, XFCE, Fluxbox, Enlightenment, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, the clearly superior plug and play support for hardware then it's obvious that Linux will never make a serious dent in the desktop world for the average home user or even for some more advanced users. They just won't want to put the time into something that they know is going to be easier to do in Windows. Until the Linux community comes together and decides on a new improved desktop manager, ONE not 5 or 6 flavors and improves plug and play detection will the hardware industry even begin to take Linux seriously enough to supply drivers for their products and the user community even be more than slightly curious about Linux as an alternative.

[zodwallop]

I read the first three pages of this thread and realized that it was controlled by Ubuntu fanatics. I'm a big proponent of Ubuntu, but the fact of the matter is Windows wins the popularity test and for good reason. Ubuntu has a lot to offer if you've got a computer with hardware that is very generic and you are used to doing a lot of general stuff with it. If you are looking to do specific things with specific hardware, you're looking at a learning curve that you most likely would not find with a Windows XP (and probably Windows Vista) OS.

Windows makes things easy. Ubuntu makes things free, but you have to be willing to experiment

[IYY]

seems like ubuntu still a baby, and windows making a long way through technology.


Don't forget that Microsoft is a baby in comparison to Unix, and Ubuntu is a Unix-like system.

[MrKlean]

My 2 cents...XP has been out for about 5-6 yrs and they're still patching it because of flaws...soooooo...you're gonna buy a new OS that will have more flaws...and YEARS worth of patches ! Not me... I'm going Ubuntu full time at the end of the month when my credit union finally fixes their website to let Firefox view it. Gates has gotten all he's getting from me.

[cacharreo]

They are completely different things.
Why to compare them?

[moilzpoil]

Guess I'll weigh in on this one. My 750mz Sony with xp ran 29 processes with another 11 for the dialup internet services. Not much room left for me to do anything. And of course I couldn't whittle it down to only the things I wanted. When I put Ubuntu, it was like going from roller skates to rocket ships. Give me the option of having what I want, not what someone else has decided to force on me.

[gammyhand]

just as Vista will be a flashy front end of WIN XP.

I don't know where you got that information from but it is wildly misleading and inaccurate. There are many, many independant reviews around now that will set you straight :)

[xpod]

My ubuntu takes about the same time to boot up and shut down as what xp used to take just to boot up OR down on it`s own.......and thats even after all the unwanted processes,services and startup entries had been purged.

I can make xp fly now though......The cd i stuck it on is better than a frisbie when you throw it.Make sure theres no people about though.:twisted:

[JayTee]

I hereby nominate this thread as "The most useless thread that will never die". I'd have expected it to be moved to the Cafe or someplace else by now.

[xpod]

Im not sure about that.
Have you seen some of the threads already in the backyard?
I must admit i was suprised to see it still around though

[balcides]

If you want to make the most of your expensive hardware whether its 32 or 64
Then Unbutu is for you.

Ive suffered 19 pages of reviews on this forum and although many tibits of useful information has been mentioned that core peice of knowledge I was looking for was just not there. So, with some research, experimenting, and implementing, here are the spcifics.

First, the purpose for me using both Windows Vista and Ubunta was to test how well it ran Maya, Z-brush, Photoshop, After Effects, Renderman, Shake, and Premiere or Avid.

I have 3 computers to test them on.

AMD Athlon MP– Dual processor
1.2Ghz
Geforce 3 ti200
2048 RAM

AMD64 _Dual
2.8 Ghz
Nvidia Quadro FX 5500
4096 RAM

Intel Xeon _Dual
3.2 Ghz
Nvidia Quadro FX 4500
4096 RAM

Each set up dual boot.

AMD vs INTEL

Intel is compared to AMD on tests run in Windows. Because the software above have exclusivity contracts with source codes often favoring IntelsMMX achitecture you would think that AMD and Intel may be slighty equal with Intel in the lead but AMD still remains with the upper hand. ( mainly in its ability to remain cool better than Intel and its raw FLOP calculations ) When running both processors on Windows, they were even with Intel slightly faster on Photoshop and AfterEffects. On Unbuntu, AMD was the victor by a landslide. Spcifically, I tested a maya render with
1:50 Win/AMD : 45 Unbut/AMD
1:49 Win/Intel 1:05 Unbut/Intel
as the render times. Maya uses the CPU to render, so these calculations are not based on the graphics card.

Where am I going with all this?

AMD runs better on Unbutu than Intel and yet they both run worse on Windows despite Intel being optimized for Windows.

Hardware Usage – System resources
Unbutu used almost 98% compared to Vistas 60% usuage of my expensive SLI graphics cards and duo core processor hardware running Maya, Z brush, Photoshop and the like above when rendering, opening or creating images. When it came to my older computer the results were Unbutu 99% Vista 40% due to the 32-bit architecture it was tested on. What really surprised me was the fact that Sli hardware tech by Nvidia in combination with 64-bit processors/motherboard on Vista only made better use of my RAM and that’s it! Why the hell did I spend so much money on these machines for more power to get my work done faster only to get so little out of it when Vista boasts to be a 64-bit application? It means I spent a ton of money to get pretty Vista graphics that arent worth it, nor productive.

File System
Vista uses WinFS a new file system that would work more like a relational database rather than a file system. A bit of a step above the NTFS (which I liked most on win2k)
And the FAT32/FAT (which I hated, although faster)

Unbutu uses the Debian GNU/Linux kernel which goes all the way back to a Unix-based system core. Unix has been and still is known as one of the most stable and efficient OS of all time. Mac OS is based on UNIX and historically has required less maintenace than windows. Maintenace: Mac = monthly Windows = weekly

Multiprocessing
When comparing the use of 16 processors on a renderfarm, windows still had a problem where only the first two processors run at 100% and then a cascading effect happens where the remaining 14 go down 90%, 85%, 75%, 40%, 30%, 28%, 20%, 10%, ……….

Ubuntu with a little scripting from a friend of mine was 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, ………, just as good as Irix/Unix

Im not sure if any of you are excited about the new 64 bit revolution but its not much yet because the software just isnt there yet to make use of it. Be glad with the hardware you have at the moment and make the most of it. Make use of every scrap of memory and processing power you have…and get an Unbutu as your OS. Your computer will thank you.

PS.

A techie friend of mine had recently mentioned Vista’s new security feature is designed to keep better track of identifying people and tracking them by the ID on your chip. That means that they can look and find your name and registration Big Brother style. I don’t like being watched, I like freedom. So Ill take Ubuntu where Im not being watched, Freedom!

“Hardware is only as good as its software”
-Shigeru Miyamoto
:KS

[balcides]

One thing I forgot to mention was that some of the programs tested on Ubuntu was with a windows emulator since some programs were not made for linux and still ran almost as good...but more stable. Especially for multitasking!

[WalmartSniperLX]

In my opinion, Linux/Ubuntu will ALWAYS be ahead.

After much research, customizing my ubuntu, and running all the late Vista betas/rcs, it seems no closed source OS can compete in the development speed or quality of the open community, period.

[sentro]

Well, i have to admit....i'm a geek when it comes to linux. I've been using linux since the days of Red Hat 5 and i've tried almost all flavors. Currently I have 2 dedicated PCs for Linux with removable drives and I'm using ubuntu 6.06, Suse 10.1 and mandriva - just updated to 2007 recently. In spite of my love for Linux i have to admit that i'm using Windows 2000/XP most of the time mainly because of the applications i'm using which have absolutely no equal in Linux. I'm using ADOBE Premiere/Photoshop /DVD Encore and Sony Vegas suite for video editing and photo work. Nothing in Linux comes even close to that. I'm familiar with Gimp but that's kind'a of a stone age version of Photoshp. Of course everybody says that there are thousands of apps for Linux but come on, who are they kidding. Linux is great for server setups and firewalling but for the end, non-geek user is really not a great idea. Video card drivers are still weak in the 3D area and many times require kernel recompilation - something of a feat for the casual user. DVD playback is a challenge - Madriva has the only 'legal' DVD player to date. Sure, i was able to get many of those things to work but......don't see the casual user doing that. I would hope it does become mainstream but until then.......

[NemesisUK]

If you want to make the most of your expensive hardware whether its 32 or 64
Then Unbutu is for you.

Ive suffered 19 pages of reviews on this forum and although many tibits of useful information has been mentioned that core peice of knowledge I was looking for was just not there. So, with some research, experimenting, and implementing, here are the spcifics.

First, the purpose for me using both Windows Vista and Ubunta was to test how well it ran Maya, Z-brush, Photoshop, After Effects, Renderman, Shake, and Premiere or Avid.

I have 3 computers to test them on.

AMD Athlon MP– Dual processor
1.2Ghz
Geforce 3 ti200
2048 RAM

AMD64 _Dual
2.8 Ghz
Nvidia Quadro FX 5500
4096 RAM

Intel Xeon _Dual
3.2 Ghz
Nvidia Quadro FX 4500
4096 RAM

Each set up dual boot.

AMD vs INTEL

Intel is compared to AMD on tests run in Windows. Because the software above have exclusivity contracts with source codes often favoring IntelsMMX achitecture you would think that AMD and Intel may be slighty equal with Intel in the lead but AMD still remains with the upper hand. ( mainly in its ability to remain cool better than Intel and its raw FLOP calculations ) When running both processors on Windows, they were even with Intel slightly faster on Photoshop and AfterEffects. On Unbuntu, AMD was the victor by a landslide. Spcifically, I tested a maya render with
1:50 Win/AMD : 45 Unbut/AMD
1:49 Win/Intel 1:05 Unbut/Intel
as the render times. Maya uses the CPU to render, so these calculations are not based on the graphics card.

Where am I going with all this?

AMD runs better on Unbutu than Intel and yet they both run worse on Windows despite Intel being optimized for Windows.

Hardware Usage – System resources
Unbutu used almost 98% compared to Vistas 60% usuage of my expensive SLI graphics cards and duo core processor hardware running Maya, Z brush, Photoshop and the like above when rendering, opening or creating images. When it came to my older computer the results were Unbutu 99% Vista 40% due to the 32-bit architecture it was tested on. What really surprised me was the fact that Sli hardware tech by Nvidia in combination with 64-bit processors/motherboard on Vista only made better use of my RAM and that’s it! Why the hell did I spend so much money on these machines for more power to get my work done faster only to get so little out of it when Vista boasts to be a 64-bit application? It means I spent a ton of money to get pretty Vista graphics that arent worth it, nor productive.

File System
Vista uses WinFS a new file system that would work more like a relational database rather than a file system. A bit of a step above the NTFS (which I liked most on win2k)
And the FAT32/FAT (which I hated, although faster)

Unbutu uses the Debian GNU/Linux kernel which goes all the way back to a Unix-based system core. Unix has been and still is known as one of the most stable and efficient OS of all time. Mac OS is based on UNIX and historically has required less maintenace than windows. Maintenace: Mac = monthly Windows = weekly

Multiprocessing
When comparing the use of 16 processors on a renderfarm, windows still had a problem where only the first two processors run at 100% and then a cascading effect happens where the remaining 14 go down 90%, 85%, 75%, 40%, 30%, 28%, 20%, 10%, ……….

Ubuntu with a little scripting from a friend of mine was 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, ………, just as good as Irix/Unix

Im not sure if any of you are excited about the new 64 bit revolution but its not much yet because the software just isnt there yet to make use of it. Be glad with the hardware you have at the moment and make the most of it. Make use of every scrap of memory and processing power you have…and get an Unbutu as your OS. Your computer will thank you.

PS.

A techie friend of mine had recently mentioned Vista’s new security feature is designed to keep better track of identifying people and tracking them by the ID on your chip. That means that they can look and find your name and registration Big Brother style. I don’t like being watched, I like freedom. So Ill take Ubuntu where Im not being watched, Freedom!

“Hardware is only as good as its software”
-Shigeru Miyamoto
:KS

I'd like to point out that Windows Vista doesn't use WinFS, It still uses NTFS albiet a newer version and FAT/FAT32 is NOT faster than NTFS.

[holmer.green]

I earn my living from supporting schools, youth clubs and charities. The cost of Microsoft OS and its Office products is a major issue. This coupled with costs of virus checkers etc. I am working hard to use unbuntu in these environments. Most of my clients, still using Microsoft OS, are now converted to OpenOffice + Clamwin + Firefox + gmail and lately Thunderbird. My next objective is the OS. My users are quite oblivious to the OS provided they can use the web, print and plug their cameras and phones in with no effort. The challenge for the Linux community is not to try to emulate VISTA or XP but to produce lean and mean distros which non-expert users can sit down and get on with.

[arochester]

See "Why Linux is better" at http://www.whylinuxisbetter.net/

[NemesisUK]

I've never thought of Linux being better just different. A lot of users use windows because it comes with their computers. I love using linux but due to work cannot fully transfer over to it due to having to use proprietary software that just isnt available in any flavour of *nix. Even at home I have to use windows to run a lot of my games, I know of Cedega and WineX but they dont work with enough games yet. Until commercial game companies start writing games for linux quite a lot of us are still going to use windows.

I still think Ubuntu is a step in the right direction though.

As for Vista it offers me nothing new that I can't do in Windows XP or in Ubuntu, and don't get mer started on 3d desktops as IMHO they're nothing but a distraction and don't aide productivety at all.

[mblinux]

I've always considered Linux a server OS and a great everyday's environment (browsing, downloads, some music, some clips and films, burn some cds). Windows is my multimedia station( mainly tv via internet, video-editing, mediacenter, dvd creation etc.).

I feel safe to navigate and download with linux, I feel safe to create media with the really good applications that works on win.

I recently had to change a burned motherboard and Microsoft kindly informed me that my license was burned too. Same days I received my free cd with Ubuntu from Canonical...

My opinion is that the biggest enemy of Windows Vista will be Windows XP. At least for the next year or two (for myself even more).

[Craftycorner]

I can’t understand how people can be so blasé about stealing!

Even though I am annoyed by some anti-piracy features that overly interfering, I for one am glad that at least one pirate was successfully made to get legal software for his machine.
I have a LEGAL copy of Windows XP for which I got a software program to disable the WGA. When I reinstall, I enter my key code. Fine. I don't want the thing phoning home when I boot up though, cuz it often causes blue screens and other problems. Microsoft said they fixed the problem, which isn't true on my machine. Cuz of hardware issues, (printer, scanner, internal fax) I run a double OS Windows/Linux.

[Craftycorner]

Be nice if Linux had a list of hardware that is Linux compliant.
Printers with smart ink tank systems, scanners, 56k/14.4 internal fax modems are my problem hardware devises that will not work with my Linux box. I can't replace them, as my budget is all but nonexistant so it keeps a Windoze partition in the box, but as each wears out, I will get a Linux complient. Hopefully, more and more devises learn to play nice with Linux.

[aysiu]

Be nice if Linux had a list of hardware that is Linux compliant. Already there:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupport
http://www.linuxcompatible.org/

[Craftycorner]

People don't migrate--they buy.

Yes, a very small minority of Windows power users will research Linux distributions, download an ISO, figure out how to burn it, set their BIOS to boot from CD, repartition their drives, and install and configure a new operating system.

Most people just use whatever came on the computers they bought. So preinstallation is the way--the only way.
How can one turn in a driver that is built for windows to ask for assistance in converting it for a Linux distro? Or would this cause a legal issue? For example, my scanner came with a CD with a Windows based driver on it...

[aysiu]

How can one turn in a driver that is built for windows to ask for assistance in converting it for a Linux distro? Or would this cause a legal issue? For example, my scanner came with a CD with a Windows based driver on it...
You don't really... turn it in.

You plead with the hardware manufacturer to open the code for the driver or keep it closed but create a Linux driver for it... or you buy a scanner that's already supported:
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardwareSupportComponentsScanners

[Craftycorner]

That will so never happen...me buying new hardware, I earn under $1,200 a month. I just hope Microsux doesn't decide my copy of MX isn't pirated... but at least I'm virus free.

[Shay Stephens]

That will so never happen...me buying new hardware, I earn under $1,200 a month. I just hope Microsux doesn't decide my copy of MX isn't pirated... but at least I'm virus free.

Eventually you will have to as stuff breaks. And when you do, make sure it runs on linux. Don't buy windows only hardware. Over time, your difficulties will grow fewer. Simple :-)

[daz4126]

Hi everybody,

With the impending release of Vista, I have been thinking how we can persuade people that Ubuntu is simply a better OS.

I believe that there are many techie and moral reasons for this (which is why I am using Ubuntu) but feel that many people will need to be persuaded by more down to earth stuff (ease of use and looks, mainly).

Dapper and Edgy have gone someway to achieving this, but still require some extra configuration on behalf of the user, so here is my proposal to make Ubuntu a Visa beater:

When installing offer a prompt to install Beryl by default and do everything (customisation etc) for the user.
Also offer Automatix (or EasyUbuntu or some combination of the two) as an option while installing, making it clear about the legal implications and reasons why these packages are not included by default.
Give a much wider choice of professional looking themes out of the box. Customisation attracts me to this platform, but is just too much hassle for some people. The Human theme is very professional, but I think that the brown and orange will put many people off. A good choice of blue, red, grey themes would really help make Ubuntu look much better.


I know these are all very superficial, but I think that this is what your average user wants - something that looks good and works out of the box.

Any thoughts or suggestions about this?

DAZ

[nalmeth]

I guess you will like the Feisty release then.

Easy Codec installation, binary driver install, beryl install, yada yada.

I would prefer Ubuntu to remain steadfast in dedication to freedom. The new developments don't make it a non-free OS, but it shows an acceptance of non-free standards.

Anyway, it looks like you'll get what you're looking for, and many will be adopting Ubuntu for one reason or another.

[graabein]

most buzzz is about the frigging GUI so if Feisty +n has bling ala beryl/compiz XGL that is nice + better webcam support for us internet chatters.



I also wish that Ubuntu would stay on the open freedom path but users can always take the non-free stuff out as easily as users can put other things in.

[_simon_]

The problem isn't what Ubuntu or Linux in general offers but people's understanding of it.

I was talking to a friend today who uses windows (currently Vista RTF) and he told me that:

1. Linux is unstable.
2. It's Free so it can't be any good.
3. Most hardware doesn't work because hardware companies do not provide drivers.

I tried to give him the real facts but he just kept showing me articles on Vista features.

[daz4126]

Anyway, it looks like you'll get what you're looking for, and many will be adopting Ubuntu for one reason or another.

Just to clarify, this isn't really what I'm looking for. I don't use Beryl, but have noted the buzz around it. I do use some of the codecs, but only because I am forced to at times. I try to use open/free stuff as much as possible (the reason I am using Ubuntu is because I believe in free software).

I would definitely like Ubuntu to support more themes though as I hate the brown.

The point of my post was how to persuade people that Ubuntu is better than Vista, and these were just my feelings as it appears that Vista (and OSx) is going down the 'visual bling' path, so I would guess the average user would want to see that Ubuntu could do this sort of stuff too. Your average Windows user would also run back to Vista pretty quick if they realised that all their wma files didn't work anymore.

So, to reiterate, this is NOT my wishlist, just wondering what people think it would take to persuade people that Ubuntu is a better alternative to Vista.

DAZ

[daz4126]

I tried to give him the real facts but he just kept showing me articles on Vista features.

So what Ubuntu features could we show him that would also make him drool?

My point is that you need to win people over first with the superficial stuff and then they can learn the REAL reasons why Ubuntu is just soooo much better.

DAZ

[LLRNR]

The problem isn't what Ubuntu or Linux in general offers but people's understanding of it.Unfortunately, you can't imagine how right you are... :(

I was talking to a friend today who uses windows (currently Vista RTF) and he told me that:

1. Linux is unstable.
2. It's Free so it can't be any good.
3. Most hardware doesn't work because hardware companies do not provide drivers.

I tried to give him the real facts but he just kept showing me articles on Vista features.

I'm a CS student and I wanted to know my colleagues' thoughts on Vista and its "features", so I started a fair, impartial thread on my faculty forum... Just some funny guy answered, telling me that I'll be forced to use Vista someday wether I like it or not... I got some views on the thread but until now nobody else answered; I don't find this to be creative, I think _simon_'s right, people think in a certain way and it's hard for them to see outside their thin vision. Please do correct me if I'm wrong.

[d3v1ant_0n3]

So what Ubuntu features could we show him that would also make him drool?

My point is that you need to win people over first with the superficial stuff and then they can learn the REAL reasons why Ubuntu is just soooo much better.

DAZ

Beryl! It's wonderfully pointless (although it vastly improves my desktop experience), but it's eyecandy is much better than vista's. It's stable and runs on much lower end systems- I didn't get any form of Aero effects (not even glass) on this machine, and I can run beryl smoothly with all the effects on with the exception of water (no pixel shaders- boo).

Show him Kiba Dock also- argueably it can make your desktop LESS usable (All i'd do was play with the icons for ages) but the physics effects are wonderful.

Show him the sheer volume of apps that come bundled with Ubuntu (for free) and then show him all the wonderful apps that come bundled with Vista Ultimate (um...Media center and solitaire? Oh, notepad too). For $400!

I gave the Sabayon Linux live dvd a spin last night...i'd highly recommend it as a way to show off linux to people- It runs Beryl in a live environment, smooth and fast, and because its a dvd, has TONS of apps on it. Nicely laid out too. And has a couple of commmercial game demos on (Quake 4 and Cold War) to silence people who think linux is just command line and 2d games.

[daz4126]

Oh yes, I forgot...

I also think that some of the default packages should start to change:

Bye bye Gnomebaker, hello Brasero
Bye bye Rythmbox, hello Listen

Scribes is also looking very tasty and might compete with textmate (OSx, but let's tempt the mac ppl as well!)

Any others?

DAZ

[nalmeth]

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest it would make you happy for your own purposes, just that your wishlist to help others looks to be coming to fruition in feisty.

All in all, I'm not too worried about it, so long as Vista doesn't attract more users from other OS's, we will carry on, business as usual. The more people start accepting DRM as part of their OS (that goes for Mac too) and daily computing habits, the more work we're going to have to do to change that.

[daz4126]

@nalmeth

I agree with you. I feel strongly that software should be free and make every effort to use only free software, but sometimes my principles have to be sacrificed because everybody else doesn't share them and send me stuff that they say is standard and I say is propriety rubbish.

Being a pragmatist, I still think that if you can get people to switch (using eye candy or whatever) then they will eventually see the light (hopefully...)

DAZ

[PrinceArithon]

It wont be hard to convert after a while. The buzz of Vista will have everyone going for about a year or a year and a half. The truth is it's a piece of garbage. Everything I have read about it, is interesting and all, but mostly all they are focusing on is how great it looks. You might as well stay with XP instead of converting to Vista cuz all it is is XP with a GUI face lift.

Yes it has some extra things that the regular user wont notice. All they really did was changed a few things in some areas to make it better for the gamers. Other than that, the little old grandma who just wants to email her grandchildren and read what's going on at her church's website wont be able to tell the difference.

Seriously if you ask me, Vista just is going to be a pile of garbage. I'm not even going to buy it like I thought I was going to....after all I read about it I Just want to cry because it's going to suck so bad and I'm going to have to interact with it...at work or school. So I'Ll just stick with XP as long as I can.

[nalmeth]

Being a pragmatist, I still think that if you can get people to switch (using eye candy or whatever) then they will eventually see the light (hopefully...)
Absolutely.

I don't mean to sound like extreme at all, I confess to using many of the non-free plugins, because like you said, everyone close to you believes non-free is the standard, or they don't know anything other than non-free.

I agree that getting people to switch with eye-candy or whatever is useful, and will work. It just irritates me just enough, it's just toeing on the line of going too far.

DRM is my limit though. Using non-free binaries and plugins which you yourself laboured to install is one thing.
An inherently restricting and condescending technology like DRM should be illegal, which is why I don't want people to adopt Vista and Macintosh.

It slightly pains me to say this, but I hope if we're going to stoop to luring users like kids to a candy store, I suppose it is the lesser evil than the alternative.

Now that I'm back on the topic, I suppose an impressive trait people will have in Ubuntu is the effects achievable with much less expensive hardware. Vista means $$$. Big $$$.

Also, only a minority of gamers are bent on playing the latest DX10 games on their PC, the rest of the gamers will probably get onto the consoles.

I think Ubuntu has quite a lot going for it, and is not threatened by Vistas features.

[aysiu]

I don't see what it has to do with features.

If people can within Feisty Fawn accomplish the tasks they need to accomplish, they can also accomplish those tasks in Edgy Eft and Dapper Drake.

If, however, they "need" Windows-only programs and hardware... or are just too closed-minded to try something new, it won't matter how many cool features Feisty Fawn has.

I love the improvements that are upcoming for Feisty, but preinstallation and deals with corporations and schools are the only way we'll get a flood of former Windows users.

[daz4126]

I have never understood why gamers spend 1000s on a PC gaming rig when they could just spend 100s on a console. But, hey I'm no gamer, maybe there is a difference...

DAZ

[daz4126]

Absolutely.


It slightly pains me to say this, but I hope if we're going to stoop to luring users like kids to a candy store


I love the metaphor!!

DAZ

[nalmeth]

If, however, they "need" Windows-only programs and hardware... or are just too closed-minded to try something new, it won't matter how many cool features Feisty Fawn has.
Well, it depends on just how easy it is to setup Beryl, which many people think is the magical feature which will get people jumping ship.
I'd have to agree its not going to turn the tide, but I can definitely see people trying linux JUST for beryl, as small as that contingent may be. Maybe they will stick with an XP/feisty dual-boot so they can have Vistas eye-candy without its price. So when they need their CAD software they boot XP, and for general multimedia/web browsing, they will use the slick Beryl linux.

FREE CANDY isn't something most people will ignore.

All in all I'm in agreement with you aysiu, there has to be government/corporate blessing for a significant migration to happen.
GNU/Linux isn't based on the idea of prettiness.

[_simon_]

So what Ubuntu features could we show him that would also make him drool?

My point is that you need to win people over first with the superficial stuff and then they can learn the REAL reasons why Ubuntu is just soooo much better.

DAZ

Forget features to drool over, people need to be first educated that they can (in most cases) do under Linux what they can do under Windows.

Once they can understand that Linux is on a par with Windows, then you can start showing them the advantages and eye candy etc,

[coder_]

Really, I don't think any campaign should just be for Ubuntu. It should be for Linux overall. I think the pro-Ubuntu groups should switch to promoting Linux and FOSS overall instead of one distro. Don't get me wrong though, I love Ubuntu and Debian :)

[mojoman]

Here's my two cent for what it's worth. Ubuntu, and Linux, doesn't need to use more proprietary software but less. The sheer amount of software available for free, both as beer and as open-source, is already staggering and most of it is really good as well. However, very few non-linux-users understand how much software there is available or how easy it actually is to use or how good it is. Most of them think that Linux is some purely command-based arcande stuff that you need to be an enginner to use and that it would take them forever to learn it. (Considering how many of them that mess around with cracks, serial numbers, patches and God only knows what in order to use all the programs they want - but don't want to pay for - I'd say that a lot of them spend more time then the avarege Linux users to get their stuff working.) More proprietary software isn't going to to make people chose Ubuntu or any other Linux distro over Vista, it's just going to make using Linux more of a hazzle. What is needed is good old fashioned advertising, Linux need to get exposed a lot more so that people see that it isn't difficult and that you can get a mind-boggling amount of really good software for free. Well, at least if you ask me.

[nalmeth]

(Considering how many of them that mess around with cracks, serial numbers, patches and God only knows what in order to use all the programs they want - but don't want to pay for - I'd say that a lot of them spend more time then the avarege Linux users to get their stuff working.) More proprietary software isn't going to to make people chose Ubuntu or any other Linux distro over Vista, it's just going to make using Linux more of a hazzle. What is needed is good old fashioned advertising, Linux need to get exposed a lot more so that people see that it isn't difficult and that you can get a mind-boggling amount of really good software for free. Well, at least if you ask me.
Well said
Good points
Exposure is what we need the most.

[sweemeng]

here is what happen in my case, i'm trying to show how linux work at my place. here is list of response(negative).
1)hmmm interesting
2)that suck, open office can't print wording for banner properly
3)that suck, it don't have game i play
4)maybe you should put linux on vmware on windows, instead of the other way round(seriously i got this respond，by then it is a long story)
5)they screw up the installation in a very interesting way.
6)maybe not relevant but still, how do you uninstall linux? (some laptop they bought comes with linpus linux, which in my experience, close to useless)
7)you should try vista.......
8)you mean that, you cannot compile it this way, or "you name it c++ function" don't work. did i tell you i'm studying in computer science department.
9)keyboard not working.

this is just really a few response from many friend i show. others(a lot of others) involved friends who didn't noticed much when using my laptop, some kids playing with my laptop(playing kde games), it surprisingly easy to use (after i do some demo), some curious how to do this or that. all this without beryl. :-D

some other good news, many people got issue with wga at my place. so hopefully it helps with our cause.:D

if you are involve in linux advocacy, don't just talk, show them. show them what we can do, how we do things. and acknowledge our weakness. meaning tell the truth, not hype. not fud. like don't just show beryl works, you should tell them, like, you can do this but you need to ......
or you should tell them whats not working as well. if a user attempt to convert fail because something still not working in ubuntu. it is as good as losing one.

[Mr. Picklesworth]

Something Ubuntu needs so people try Linux and get hooked would be a first-run screen.
New users could learn all about Ubuntu's nice features in a pleasantly constructed interactive tutorial, while returning users could learn about what's new.

When I first ran Ubuntu, it took me a bit of fiddling to find out exactly what sets it apart from Windows (aside from being free, faster, etc.); eg: The excellent updater and package manager, the customizable desktop, the nice theme, the 6 month release schedule...
I know that some other people wouldn't give it a chance; they are used to first-run screens such as in Windows or Mac and if they don't get one they end up lost and confused.

[nalmeth]

Kind of like a more instructional version of kpersonalizer?

[daz4126]

Something Ubuntu needs so people try Linux and get hooked would be a first-run screen.
New users could learn all about Ubuntu's nice features in a pleasantly constructed interactive tutorial, while returning users could learn about what's new.

Maybe we could use a talking paperclip to do this.... I jest!;)

When I first ran Ubuntu, it took me a bit of fiddling to find out exactly what sets it apart from Windows (aside from being free, faster, etc.); eg: The excellent updater and package manager, the customizable desktop, the nice theme, the 6 month release schedule...
I know that some other people wouldn't give it a chance; they are used to first-run screens such as in Windows or Mac and if they don't get one they end up lost and confused.

I know what you mean. It was Firefox being so brilliant (well, better than IE anyway...) that convinced me to give it a try and I've fallen in love with it, but it has not been without some major hassles and I was very very confused at first ('where's the start menu?!?')

You are right on with the pros. I love the fact that not only do I get exceptional software that is open and free, but it is also updated on a regular basis, again for free. When working in the windows world, these 'free updates' only last for a year.

DAZ

[IYY]

How Can Ubuntu Trump Vista?

Doesn't Ubuntu already trump Vista?

[23meg]

We can't persuade the masses about anything. All we can possibly do for them is ship Ubuntu as a default OS with the computers they buy. They don't want to be persuaded about which OS is ultimately better; they just want goods that work, and they want to be given those goods as defaults, in a working condition. They won't bother to change their crappy OS that somehow still works for anything, as long as it somehow works.

And we don't have to do anything for more picky, more critical and more technical users, they'll find us.

[Craftycorner]

OK, until things start to break, I will continue to run a double OS. I found by happy accident that my digital camera is Linux friendly.

My next two questions: How long will Microsoft continue to support Windows XP?

My other computer, my back up which is a little old poke, is soon to find itself a Windows 98 orphan. Will the free software community look after these sad little waifs in the dark? A VM would be too hard a load for this old clunker to carry. If I went Linux with the old geezer, I don't know if the drivers are complient, and again I will have periphial issues with scanner & printer. :'(

[uNmentaLogic]

Ubuntu will need to do everything Vista does only better. Unfortunately this will never happen :(. Ubuntu is an excellent alternative if you are willing to sacrifice certain functions or fiddle and tweak until you get a slim resemblance of them.

[aysiu]

Ubuntu will need to do everything Vista does only better. Unfortunately this will never happen :(. Ubuntu is an excellent alternative if you are willing to sacrifice certain functions or fiddle and tweak until you get a slim resemblance of them.
I haven't had to sacrifice certain functions in Ubuntu.

We don't all use AutoCAD and play PC games here.

Some of us just type the occasional document, organize photos, browse the internet, check email, and listen to music.

[mdsmedia]

Ubuntu will need to do everything Vista does only better. Unfortunately this will never happen :(. Ubuntu is an excellent alternative if you are willing to sacrifice certain functions or fiddle and tweak until you get a slim resemblance of them.To me that's the typical Windows generalization. "It's got to be like Windows but better".

Vista doesn't do all that Ubuntu/Linux does.

I heard recently (but couldn't get the source of the info.) that Ubuntu had better hardware support than Windows (XP iirc) so we're already ahead there.

There are MANY things in Vista that people don't need/want. So why would Ubuntu/Linux want to be able to do those things?

There are MANY things in Linux that just CAN'T be done in Windows of any flavor.

Linux does what it does mainly as well or better than Vista. Vista is playing catchup to Linux in a lot of areas.

Vista isn't better than Linux. Windows is simply more ubiquitous. It simply appears on more machines pre-installed and people therefore believe they "need" Windows, when they really don't know that there are alternatives.

If schools installed Linux/had Linux preinstalled on their machines so kids use Linux at school before they know there is an alternative it will a) cost the schools far less and b) provide students with an operating system they can learn, rather than just be taught to use Word and Excel by ignorant teachers.

Even if they have Windows on their computers at home they will be shown that it is not the only OS around.

[uNmentaLogic]

To me that's the typical Windows generalization. "It's got to be like Windows but better".

Vista doesn't do all that Ubuntu/Linux does.

I heard recently (but couldn't get the source of the info.) that Ubuntu had better hardware support than Windows (XP iirc) so we're already ahead there.

There are MANY things in Vista that people don't need/want. So why would Ubuntu/Linux want to be able to do those things?

There are MANY things in Linux that just CAN'T be done in Windows of any flavor.

Linux does what it does mainly as well or better than Vista. Vista is playing catchup to Linux in a lot of areas.

Vista isn't better than Linux. Windows is simply more ubiquitous. It simply appears on more machines pre-installed and people therefore believe they "need" Windows, when they really don't know that there are alternatives.

If schools installed Linux/had Linux preinstalled on their machines so kids use Linux at school before they know there is an alternative it will a) cost the schools far less and b) provide students with an operating system they can learn, rather than just be taught to use Word and Excel by ignorant teachers.

Even if they have Windows on their computers at home they will be shown that it is not the only OS around.

Of course it is a generalisation, Windows is entrenched in the consumer mind, to convert a person that uses Windows already you need to show them that Linux can do everything that they expect and then do it better before you will encourage them to change sides.

As aysiu stated in his reply to me, "Some of us just type the occasional document, organize photos, browse the internet, check email, and listen to music."
Then you can show them that indeed Linux is better than Windows and if they are willing to give it time they would probably convert. On the other hand if the person, is like me and uses games or anything that Windows excels at then you will be hard pressed to change their mind because Linux can not touch Windows in that respect. For me and many others to move away from Windows totally, everything needs to work better than Windows

You are right in stating that pre-installing Linux on a machine will help put Linux in the consumers mind, who do not know about computers but thats not going to be enough for everyone to convert. What about a person that buys a computer pre-installed with Ubuntu, but their friends play games and the person wants to play against them? Linux can not compete with this until it can do what Windows does.

You state that Ubuntu has better hardware support than XP, I admittedly do not know what new hardware is supported now, (I made sure most of my computer components were popular) when I first heard about Ubuntu and started using it (Warty et al if you would like to see my troubles my old account is Cacofonix) my hardware at the time (2 years ago) was not supported and I needed to tweak and beg for it to work. I know this is not a Linux problem, but more of the hardware developers problem, but I really do not care I want my hardware to run with the least amount of fuss and 18 months (Time the azalia codec was created till the time it was supported OOTB) was not good enough when I could use my hardware straight away in Windows.

Linux is good but until it can compete with Windows on all fronts in my opinion it can not trump Windows.

[the.dark.lord]

Six years of Windows ME.
NET RESULT: Ubuntu ;)

*Sends a boquet of flowers to Bill Gates*

[chaosgeisterchen]

If schools installed Linux/had Linux preinstalled on their machines so kids use Linux at school before they know there is an alternative it will a) cost the schools far less and b) provide students with an operating system they can learn, rather than just be taught to use Word and Excel by ignorant teachers.

That's kinda impossible just because of the teachers themselves. They were taught Windows and most of all teachers nowadays simply aren't willing to learn anything radically new. In fact, education is the utmost conservative thing I've ever seen. Sad but true that all of this is passed on to people like me (the youth of modern time) and the upcoming generation. There has to be a major shift in perception about operating systems. But to the majority of people it is just not interesting at all to widen the horizont of the pupils. Most teachers handle Linux with one sentence.

"There is Linux, an alternative operating system. It's mostly command line and provides no promising GUI, so it is mainly used by professionals and cannot be used by beginners. So, let's move on the basics of Windows XP.."

(pupil)

"Hasn't Linux become a lot more userfriendly recently? A friend of mine showed me something called 'Ubuntu' a week ago and ..."

(teacher interrupting pupil)

"No, nothing has changed. Now please stop interrupting the lesson and open your 'Basics in Windows XP' books on page 3."

....

This would be the way it would be handled in our school, at least.

[DarkDancer]

I have never understood why gamers spend 1000s on a PC gaming rig when they could just spend 100s on a console. But, hey I'm no gamer, maybe there is a difference...

DAZ

Well, you can do that, but no one has too. Unless you want the total "bling" package, with the neon and all that. Most people, would really just need to double their memory (why anyone would sell a computer with only 256 mn's of ram is beyond me) and maybe upgrade the video card.

[lyceum]

The biggest problem I have found with getting Linux to the desktop is marketing. I hav switch so many people to Ubutnu, and all thanks to Microsoft. Saddly, these people had never heard of Linux. If we could find ways to educate people, it would help. To be honest, unless someone has a problem with their PC they really don't want to hear me talk abiut Linux. It is like I am trying to get them to go to church or something.

[idrinkwhisky]

Linux is just too hard for the average joe.

1) better hardware support (printers, webcams, usb headphones, scanners, mouse), i.e. out of the box. Yes even the plain side buttons on a mouse (forward/back word in firefox) sometimes need xorg.conf tweaking.

2) easy installation option for Nvidia/Ati drivers, i.e. automatix / easyubuntu.

3) better dual screen monitor setup a la windows.

4) nobody should ever have to mess around with xorg.conf or that kind of stuff.

5) multimedia plugins

I think ubuntu is great and I have been using it as my main OS for 4 months now. But I do remember that it was a pain to get everything configured the way I like it in the beginning. If Ubuntu wants to seriously challange windows it should not be that hard for the beginner. Not many people have the time to play around with an OS for days.

[frodon]

3) better dual screen monitor setup a la windows.Did you tried the latest nvidia drivers ?
They already offer this :
http://regis.pondaven.club.fr/nvidia-settings.png
4) nobody should ever have to mess around with xorg.conf or that kind of stuff.Well for common things it's already the case but can surely be improved.
However i like to tweak my xorg.conf to get better performances.
5) multimedia plugins Which one do you miss ?

I'm not sure the goal is really to challenge windows and to make everyone using it, it's more to provide a good OS.
Then if the OS is good people will use it.

[carlosqueso]

Linux is just too hard for the average joe.

3) better dual screen monitor setup a la windows.




So you mean opening things on the wrong monitor, only about half of the programs working with dual monitors, and windows getting completely lost? (Sorry, a bit bitter about how windows handles my dual monitors at work](*,) )