Linux vs. Vista

[ago]

Great, I will test it once I am at home!

[ago]

I submitted a specification on the subject:

Officially supported hardware list (https://features.launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/supported-hardware-list)

By the way I wanted to create a wiki page for the proposal since the spec description should be 1 paragraph and I am way over the limit...

The problem is that if I call it something like OfficialHardwareList or SupportedHardwareList or similar it will look like I want to hijack traffic from the SupportedHardware page and I want to avoid.

I therefore thought about SupportedHardwareWebsiteProposal. You guys think it is acceptable for a title or will I look as an hijacker?

[ago]

6) to be able to rate compatability which will be tied to distro and kernel version.

It would be great if it could include both automatic tests (via plugins), and give the user the option to put a rating manually, with comments, bugs, manual step required to make it work.

[DoctorMO]

ago - further features while they have been going through my mind, I've decided to focus on the main functionality for now.

it would always be nice to have some help from all these new python programmers we seem to be aquiring.

[ago]

ago - further features while they have been going through my mind, I've decided to focus on the main functionality for now.

it would always be nice to have some help from all these new python programmers we seem to be aquiring.
I am fairly busy at the moment but I will certainly try to help as much as I can. I like the project.

[ago]

I created this wikipage. Please feel free to contribute.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportedHardwareListProposal

DoctorMO, if you want you can add a section/link to your application. I think it is quite relevant.

[maniacmusician]

@bobby: I wasnt suggesting that we do it all on the forums, just gather data here. People are more likely to post here than on a wiki. We could take all the info that users would post here and export it in an organized fashion to a wiki or website.

@doctormo: your program sounds quite interesting. definitely better than my idea, if it works. I don't really understand the dynamics of it; i'm not much of a programmer or anything. i cant even script lol. but i think this is a great effort. I'll keep an eye on it. let me know if there's anything i can do to help on a basic level.

[DoctorMO]

maniacmusician as usual the whiz popping of my brain drowns out the ability to write any ideas down in a way that can be understood.

Imagen this:
1) Install Ubuntu
2) Find most Hardware Works
3) WiFi card, printer and scanner don't work
4) Load Dohickey (the project above)
5) Dohickey downloads information from the internet like apt-get does for programs but for hardware devices.
6) You look at the information available to your WiFi Card which is labeled as unsupported.
7) You know something about how to get it to work, so you add more information and that information is saved localy and sent back to the server for review.
8) your printer is completly unknown, the system has no idea what it is so you fill in the name, description and a few other details which get sent back to the server (and saved localy)
9) Your scanner says it's detected but the model is not defined, you right click and see a list of models to select from. selecting the correct one modifies HAL via fdi, unplug and plug scanner back in and scanner now works.

Make sense?

[ago]

@bobby: I wasnt suggesting that we do it all on the forums, just gather data here. People are more likely to post here than on a wiki. We could take all the info that users would post here and export it in an organized fashion to a wiki or website.

For such a project, I do not think you cann avoid having a database-driven dedicated website. If you either use a wiki or a forum, it will soon become impossible to maintain (ok wiki and forums are are db-driven too but you know what I mean...).

Having a dedicated dynamic site, it will be possible to add interactive sections to each component/system page like howtos, reviews, tips, voting, forum, comments...

Doctormo's program can be used to fill the database.

See my wiki proposal for details https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SupportedHardwareListProposal

PS thanks Doctormo

[.t.]

I agree with all this driver discussion, but I also feel that installing drivers on Windows is tedious. When I installed Windows, I had to install a graphics driver, 2 sound card drivers, wireless/ethernet card drivers, chipset drivers, modem drivers and USB2 drivers. I don't have to do any of that in Linux. Admittedly, I do not use any proprietary modules (Intel's are open source), and understand the frustration of those who do. However, Windows is much more frustrating.

On the topic of filesystems, why does a normal user even need to navigate anywhere except /home? They don't, and if they don't, they won't see the "complicated" system. It's not; and to me it was pretty self explanitary. Linux is different; get used to it.

[SoundMachine]

Isn't there a list of hardware supported by the kernels? If so, wouldn't it be easier to just use that for the kernel version distributed with the distro version?

I have to say I've never seen one but i know it's available for the BSD's as i have used it for FreeBSD several times.

[DoctorMO]

It's not a simple as that, and libusb makes it even harder to keep those kinds of tabs.

not to mention that 1) some hardware ids are used for more than one model some supported some not, 2) some hardware is supported but we just don't know about it and never have heard of that kind of hardware before.

[ago]

Isn't there a list of hardware supported by the kernels? If so, wouldn't it be easier to just use that for the kernel version distributed with the distro version?

I have to say I've never seen one but i know it's available for the BSD's as i have used it for FreeBSD several times.

The problem is that there are far too many of those lists... And even worse, they often create grey areas, things like "it can work" or "limited functionality". In some cases, the user simply does not know what to expect, often he will give it a go anyway and chances are he will be disappointed because the harware is not going to work properly and/or it may be difficult to set it up and/or the user may well break other things in the process.

With a Mac you will see on the box if the hardware is supported or not. With Ubuntu, people give it a go anyway and complain if an unsupported hardware does not work. The forums are full of suche experiences.

It will take some time to see something on a box, but at the very least we need to have an OFFICIAL hardware list which makes it VERY clear if a piece of hardware is supported or not. A full blown certification program can be developed in the future on top of that list.

Now there is a section in the Wiki which lists various types of hardware, and it is an excellent starting point, but it is somewhat hidden away, it does not look official, and it does have grey areas. Add to it that this is clearly a task for a database driven website, a wiki is simply not the right tool for the job.

See my proposal for further explanations.

[SoundMachine]

The problem is that there are far too many of those lists... And even worse, they often create grey areas, things like "it can work" or "limited functionality". In some cases, the user simply does not know what to expect, often he will give it a go anyway and chances are he will be disappointed because the harware is not going to work properly and/or it may be difficult to set it up and/or the user may well break other things in the process.

With a Mac you will see on the box if the hardware is supported or not. With Ubuntu, people give it a go anyway and complain if an unsupported hardware does not work. The forums are full of suche experiences.

It will take some time to see something on a box, but at the very least we need to have an OFFICIAL hardware list which makes it VERY clear if a piece of hardware is supported or not. A full blown certification program can be developed in the future on top of that list.

Now there is a section in the Wiki which lists various types of hardware, and it is an excellent starting point, but it is somewhat hidden away, it does not look official, and it does have grey areas. Add to it that this is clearly a task for a database driven website, a wiki is simply not the right tool for the job.

See my proposal for further explanations.

There's not more than one kernel in a release anyway, is there?

I don't know about the kernel hardware list because i can't seem to find one but i would expect it to contain "known good" hardware listings or mark it as "experimental". Since Ubuntu includes every module it would be set up just by being recognized, wouldn't it?

I like the way the *BSD hardware compatibility lists work, it's simple and it gives you straight answers.

I'm not complaining, just offering some input, there may already be a lot of data out there that is usable right off the net.

[maniacmusician]

maniacmusician as usual the whiz popping of my brain drowns out the ability to write any ideas down in a way that can be understood.

Imagen this:
1) Install Ubuntu
2) Find most Hardware Works
3) WiFi card, printer and scanner don't work
4) Load Dohickey (the project above)
5) Dohickey downloads information from the internet like apt-get does for programs but for hardware devices.
6) You look at the information available to your WiFi Card which is labeled as unsupported.
7) You know something about how to get it to work, so you add more information and that information is saved localy and sent back to the server for review.
8) your printer is completly unknown, the system has no idea what it is so you fill in the name, description and a few other details which get sent back to the server (and saved localy)
9) Your scanner says it's detected but the model is not defined, you right click and see a list of models to select from. selecting the correct one modifies HAL via fdi, unplug and plug scanner back in and scanner now works.

Make sense?

Thanks for the explanation. I got the basic gist of it, like what you said, but you did clear up some things. I think that's an awesome project! It has enormous potential if you can get more people to work on it with you. This is the kind of stuff we should be working on, some of the other projects we have seem a bit silly in comparison. I'll help in any way i can, bar coding and programming (cuz i cant). I can test it out on my machine if you want. BTW, I think this deserves a "3rd Party Projects" section on the forum, so more people can download and try it, instead of just the ones reading this thread. great initiative.

There's not more than one kernel in a release anyway, is there?

I don't know about the kernel hardware list because i can't seem to find one but i would expect it to contain "known good" hardware listings or mark it as "experimental". Since Ubuntu includes every module it would be set up just by being recognized, wouldn't it?

I like the way the *BSD hardware compatibility lists work, it's simple and it gives you straight answers.

I'm not complaining, just offering some input, there may already be a lot of data out there that is usable right off the net.

I'm sure there are some lists out there, but they're not centralized, organized or complete. We need sort of a Database like ago said, where people can just search for their product and read up on all the things people have written to get a handle on how the hardware works. I'm sure there already is some data out there though, like you said, that we could probably link to.

[bcollignon]

My first experience with Ubuntu resulted, no fault of Ubuntu's I believe, in a hard drive failure. That's unfortunate as I was really excited after experiencing the Live CD. I'll give it another try on another, hopefully intact, hard drive. I was impressed at how it found my wireless connection, even though I had to select the connection from a dropdown. I suppose that's security related. I also installed my printer without a hitch. That's all after the initial installation of about 20 minutes or so and before the hard drive failed. This leads me to my point which is, Ubuntu appears to be well thought out and tested. Microsoft has never released any software which shouldn't have been labeled "beta" from the get go. The rush to market is why so many Windows users, over the years, have cursed Bill Gates. Truth is, he's also responsible for promulgating, along with Jobs and others, a computer revolution worldwide. My big beef with Microsoft, of late, is the monstrous charge for what is, only recently, a decent operating system. XP has flaws; all OSes do. It's the first OS I haven't yelled at since my first experience with computing about 13 years ago. I tried Red Hat Linux once several years ago, but never gave it a fair shot. DOS, OS2, even a Mac experiment here or there over the years. Only recently, with Ubuntu, has the open source community really begun to blossom and gain worthy attention. I want to keep going with it because computing has become, like the telephone and television, a technological necessity. Microsoft is like big oil... they know you're dependent (to a certain degree) so you're hooked. Hopefully we'll find an Ubuntu-like replacement to run our automobiles and heat our homes.

[Gannin]

Welcome to Ubuntu :). As for making your own fuels for car and heating... home-made ethanol and pig dung.

[Tactical Rules]

I've seen some of the screenshots of Vista and read about the features and I'm pretty sure Ubuntu can more then compete with Vista. Mozilla did tabbed browsing long ago, and the side panel thing looks like the side panel on OSX. The transparent windows are not practical (I've tried using transparent panels, it just doesn't work), and the new Windows Media Player is just plain bad. I'll give Vista one thing though, I like Microsoft Office 2003 (haven't used 2007) better then OOo. But I don't think that will make Ubuntu users switch to Vista.

[manojvekaria]

What do you think? who will be ahead.

seems like ubuntu still a baby, and windows making a long way through technology.

Not many people have heard of linux ubuntu. They are very much satisfied with windows.



How many years for Ubuntu to be a major operating system like windows Xp is now in the market.

Ans: about 50 Years, i guess




I heard of linux, but m still a windows user. I use the live Cd but don't see much in ubuntu than what windows has!!!!!

[greyash99]

Xgl

[Seine]

When I ask Ubuntu to shutdown, it shuts down. When I tell Windows to shut down, it usually doesn't or sometimes takes up to 15 minutes. This is the primary (but not only) reason I am migrating. This is on every Win XP machine I use (4 of them). Clearly the O/S is bloatware and can't control itself. [-(

The more I use Ubuntu, the more of a compelling feeling I have for sticking with it. :D

[jISh]

Vista will be far ahead. It's a fact, most people will just move on and buy a new computer using the new version of Windows.

The Open Source Software has only recently begun to spread to the average home user, and will take a good while before it can (if it ever does) replace corporate monopolies.

It doesn't change anything for Ubuntu or GNU/Linux, though. More and more people will keep coming and development will continue, and we can only hope everybody sees the light in the end.

[tobmeister]

I think that question is a really easy one to answer.

From mearly a financial standpoint there is no question that Ubuntu is superior. what I mean by this is that IF you are going to use MS win Vista you had better have a PC that can perform:

A Windows Vista Premium Ready PC includes at least:

* 1 GHz 32-bit (x86) or 64-bit (x64) processor1.
* 1 GB of system memory.
* Support for DirectX 9 graphics with a WDDM driver, 128 MB of graphics memory (minimum)2, Pixel Shader 2.0 and 32 bits per pixel.
* 40 GB of hard drive capacity with 15 GB free space.
* DVD-ROM Drive3.
* Audio output capability.
* Internet access capability.

You also must take into consideration that the upgrade from WIN XP is going to set you back probably in the neighborhood of $150 -$200. You can also read at the WIN VISTA website where it is very clear that Just because that PC that you purchase is capible doesn't mean its going to come installed

A PC that is Windows Vista Capable or Premium Ready means that the PC is ready for an upgrade from Windows XP. You would still need to purchase the edition of Windows Vista that you want to install on your Windows Vista Capable or Premium Ready PC.

Finally, from what I understand, Your going to get with Vista what you got with WINXP (i.e. Win XP is a flashy front end for WIN200 just as Vista will be a flashy front end of WIN XP).

IMHO, You would be much better off with Ubuntu. IF for any other reason, the Forums are alot nicer!!

Tobmeister

[maelgwynffn]

I have to concur that Windows Vista will be the primary operating system of my household if I ever upgrade the machines. Ubuntu and Kubuntu are on my laptop and my desktop, but the problem is that the utilities that my workplaces require run exclusively on Windows.

Open Source will one day rule the world. But Rome wasn't built in a day, and it (Open Source) may never gain that foothold that it requires.

Thats my 2 cents

Maelgwyn

[manojvekaria]

Don't look at the cover look at the content.:KS

Windows vista got a lot of graphics:confused:
that doesnt mean that its bettter.

Ubuntu can run on any useless pc lying around your house very well.
While windows vista requires a full 5GB for installation.:twisted:

Its gonna make your PC slow.](*,)


We should spread the word of ubuntu over internet i think.
Ubuntu Vs Vista
Ubuntu: 10
Vista: 0:mrgreen:

[aysiu]

My opinion--this ground has been covered quite comprehensively already.
Can anyone really afford going to Vista? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=250185)
In your opinion is Ubuntu a serious rival for OSX and the upcoming Windows Vista? (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=89166)

[Russty of Oz]

Well I am using both on this machine, (Vista Beta2) and I boot into Ubuntu 9 times out of 10. Vista looks cool with the aero interface etc. but it is more bloated than XP!! And I am finding that I can do almost everything I need to on Ubuntu. And when I eventually buy another computer, it will no doubt have Vista on it but Ubuntu will be going on there as well. But why would anyone go out and BUY Vista? Not me!

Well, that got that off my chest!:biggrin:

[Seine]

I just browsed one of the Linux mags at lunchtime today. It was a UK mag (Linux User? Linux Today?). Anyway, it covered in detail all of the Vista features promised and how Linux delivers them today, for free.

Linux features mentioned include Beagle, Xgl, Superkaramba and Cairo.

[PCalitrack]

Wow, Windows Vista doesn't really look like it does anything different than one can do on Ubuntu. If you want all the fancy display crap, just install xgl+compiz. Really, it looks like they ripped off Window Blinds... because I have had my desktop on Windows look exactly like the pics on the Vista website. My Ubuntu desktop with xgl+compiz is better than that stuff anyways (IMO).

[nudnik]

I use the current version of Windows XP Professional for whatever I can't do on Ubuntu. As long as I maintain it, XP works well much of the time and I have no complaints against it, save the ridiculous license policy.

I used Vista Beta for a short period of time and quickly removed it as I found it irritating. To begin with, it was very buggy and slow. The bugs I hope will be eliminated, for the most part, by the time a final release candidate arrives. The remainder of the improvements which actually amount to anything, can replace existing components of XP. These would include, but are not necessarily limited to, explorer 7 and media player 11.

If the Beta is anything like what will be released before long, I wouldn't even consider upgrading from XP. As for Ubuntu, there is no replacement for it either save the next upgrade. All secure transactions are conducted via Ubuntu, including email.Unless Linux becomes much more popular than it is, and thereby invites the unscrupulous to write malware for it, there will be no replacement for an OS like Ubuntu.

[manojvekaria]

I think vista will be charging its windows tax on most new machines.

If ubuntu found a way of selling ubuntu desktops and laptops with all services, pre-installed

it would go at half the price of a windows laptop.



People would be tended buying ubuntu laptops, and hence

windows would face extinction!!!!!!!!

[Uncle Spellbinder]

I don't know if they'd "face extinction", but the illegal monopoly (my opinion) of Microsoft Windows needs som serious competition.

As far as desktops and laptops, look no further than Here (http://system76.com/index.php).

[grte]

Why do you even want to compare 6.06 to Vista?

By the time Vista is released, we'll have Edgy, at least. Maybe even Edgy +1, at the rate things are going.

[bodhi.zazen]

Depends on how and why you use your box.

Vista is for users who have little or no interest in sys admin/configuration, they expect their box to "just work". They often prefer new hardware and possibly spend the majority of their computer time with games. By the nature of hardware/software development Microsoft will be ahead, after all Vista (software) has been in development with new hardware for how long now? Open source starts software development once the hardware is released to the public so there is always a lag. This is unlikely to change and this is part of what I consider "unethical conduct" via Microsoft and hardware developers.

If all new computers came with Ubuntu installed and you had to pay, download, and install Vista there would be an immediate conversion of computer users to Linux. Just as most do not know how to install Linux, most would not even know how to install Vista. Have you ever installed Windows? It is a pain in the a**. Then usually you have to install a number of drivers. Oh it is all so easy when it is all done for you, but what if you had to install from scratch (like you did Ubuntu) and, by the way, do not overwrite Ubuntu. Now you would have the same problems with installing Vista on an Ubuntu box as you now have personally installing Ubuntu on a Windows box. Resize, patition, install, install a boot loader, install windows drivers. Grub will boot windows, but will windows boot Ubuntu? This is the second part of what I consider "unethical behavior" on the part of Microsoft and hardware manufacturers. A hardware manufacturers should AT LEAST OFFER TO INSTALL AN CONFIGURE LINUX FOR THE SAME COST THE CHARGE TO INSTALL AND CONFIGURE WINDOWS, which is either nothing or hidden in the cost of a box. [I am not talking about a Vista license, just the cost of installation and configuration as Vista comes pre-installed and pre-configured, optimized to your hardware no less, not on a CD/DVD with a no OS box].

If you want a fair comparison you have to have the same starting point.

If you start with an OS installed an optimized by the hardware manufacturer at at the time of sale, Ubuntu, with modern hardware and appropriate Linux 3D drivers (open source or otherwise), will give Vista a run for the money.

If you start with a new NO OS box, blank, unformatted HD, and your need to buy/download a OS, install, and configure all you new 3D hardware, Ubuntu will give Vista a run for the money.

The problem you have is you seem to be unfamiliar with Linux and you have had someone else install an optimize Vista for you. Is there any wonder you think Vista is so much better then Ubuntu?

In essence you are asking, Is it worth my time to install and learn a new OS or do I prefer to have someone else do it for me and continue with an OS with which I am familiar?

Ubuntu is for users who take an interest in how and why their OS works. Then there is the commitment to open source. System configuration is much easier in Linux. Don't believe me install a new video card and install some Windows drivers for yourself to make the compairison. Although the "plug and play" of Windows is impressive, what to do if it fails? Ubuntu has some fairly impressive plug-and-play technology and where this fails there is often a plain text configuration file somewhere. Security? Well most acknowledge Windows has a ways to go. In these aspects Ubuntu is ahead of Windows.

Running Ubuntu is not as "convenient" if you are not familiar with the OS and are not willing to learn. Ubuntu is not a mindless as Vista and will take some effort. You should only make the compairison once you have the same familiarity with Ubuntu as you do with Windows XP, otherwise you do not know what you are not comparing two OS, you are comparing familiarity. Since you are unfamiliar with Ubuntu, Ubuntu loses. This is not comparing Ubuntu to Vista, this is just old fashioned laziness on your part.

More and more, little by little, computer users are finding Ubuntu is not so hard. Little by little, brick by brick the Microsoft empire is crumbling. Sell your stock while it still has value.

[manojvekaria]

Can you please provide a link here, so also i can have a look at it!!!

Seems interesting discussion!


What do you think. Do business men and big offices prefer using ubuntu or XP.

[calvinthomas]

They prefer using XP because its the most popular and its in their opinion the 'safe' option, that is not safe in terms of viruses etc, that is safe in terms of everyone eles uses it so no-one can be blamed for using that!

Calv

[arkangel]

honestly i saw vista beta twice. graphics are cool, (well the people around thought it was cool until i showed them Xgl) , then i told the spec that I have (for running Xgl ) compared to their spec for running vista , i saw their smiling faces turning into sad ones... I bought my laptop 7 months ago (that time a high-end one) , and it is fairly capable of vista premium. With linux i run ssh server , a ftp server , several programs at once( matlab and maple ,both with a heavy java interface),while surfing on the internet for answers and tutorials , also i might have 2 sessions of pdf-reader , and evolution is always open in the last workspace , all for cheap 500 Mb of ram out of my 1gb, in a Operating system that cost me 0.00 $$ (whereas its intrinsic value is really high because i always know that i will turn my system on and after running it for a week 24/7 it behaves the same , it does what is supposed to do )

vista is the same XP with some improvements but it is still the same thing
you never know what it is doing , you never know when is going to hangs up , yo never know when you will have viruses or spyware ,
(i can open any excel or word file or any email , without taking care of any virus or any intrusion)

if you read this article http://www.bentuser.com/article.aspx?ID=332&page=1
the differeces reduce to a better start menu (wow :S) new icons in My_STUPIDNAME_folders,and new layout in control panel , but i am sure the file system it is the same , the hard disk fragments the same , your mum or your kids can erase /windows/system32 without noticing. By default your wife(husband) can read your private documents. one day you turn on IE 7 and many others windows pop up with porn pages(just in form of your boss or clients) , etc etc .. and all in a computer that needs to have 2 gb of ram and 3ghz double core processor = $$$$+ vista retail price$$$,

I am using linux (ubuntu ) for the last 7 months (testing PCBSD for fun), i am not planning to go back and YOU SHOULD DO THE SAME

[gabhla]

If I wanted to use Windows Vista (which I don't), I'd have to buy a new pc - flat out. This one wouldn't cut it.

Based on prior history with Windows, it'd work great until I decided I needed dancing bears, or whatever, on the desktop, then everything would become sluggish. Next I'd get some virus and need to buy ZoneAlarm, or something of it's caliber, which gums up everything even more. Oh, and let's not forget about Service Pack update numbers one thru ?? So, I'll pass. Been there, done that.

Let's face it, linux users are a distinct minority. The vast majority of pc users could care less about linux, ubuntu or any of the other good distros available.

[n00b@linux]

bodhi.zazen has highlighted the biggest barrier to Ubuntu's entry into the desktop market: M$'s stranglehold on OEM PC sales.

Sure, the 'indoctrination' of users into the M$ point-and-click way of doing things that has occurred since Windows 3.1 or - for those of us old enough to remember - the Apple Lisa ;) , is a formidable hurdle. However, I believe users will be more willing to 'retrain' when faced with the choice between a no-cost OS solution, and paying the M$ tax on Vista. The problem, however, remains: it is difficult for a user to walk in to Fry's/Best Buy/PC World/Curry's and buy a PC off the shelf with linux already installed.

I have no doubts that M$ will hail Vista as a 'success' and point to the number of units 'sold' (read: installed) to justify this. I also have no doubts that M$ will NOT split those sales figures between (a) OEM sales, (b) forced upgrades and (c) direct end user sales.

[GeneralCody]

First of all: This is a silly discussion.

That's why I have to say something. (I really dont like silly discussions though)

Well...
I work with both Windows, Mac OSX, Unix and Linux systems everyday.
Each having their strengths and weaknesses.

I would like to point out that you can't compare just Linux with an Operatingsystem. Linux is not an operating system. It is just the kernel.

Linux depends on software developed around GNU sircles, and what makes up a linux distribution is what makes Linux tick.
Furthermore, each distribution has its own way of dealing with things.
This can be a bad thing, or it can definetly be a good thing.
It gives you choice. If you want a fully automated Linux setup, you can opt for a distribution like Ubuntu, that hides many of the nitty gritty configuration headaches, that scares most Windows users away.

Still there is some issues, but many are solved by using tools like Easyubuntu, that makes your system more capable of doing the things that average PC users demand. (like playing encrypted DVD's and listen to .mp3's)

People saying that Linux is lagging behind, is wrong. On the contrary, Linux develops faster than any other OS in the world today.
Commercial Software continues to be more and more available for Linux. You can now run software like Maya 8, Acrobat, and many more, with greater performance than on "the other" platform.

There is today so many great free alternatives, that keeps getting better and better, so I would say that it is a matter of time before the general public realizes this.

When it comes to resource usage, there is no doubt that an average PC will be much better off with Linux than Windows.

When it comes to the more cosmetic issues, I would personnaly prefer my Gnome desktop with gDesklets to Vista's resource intensive eye candy.

If you want full blown graphical eyecandy,that is allso possible in Gnome. U know the project i mean.

For now:
Quit this silly x vs. x discussions and go do something useful. Like program in C or something...

General Cody

[Klaidas]

Short:

Servers: Debian/Fedora/Ubuntu
Desktops: Of course Windows.

[kwalo]

I would like to point out that Of course you can't compare just Linux with an Operatingsystem. Linux is not an operating system. It is just the kernel.
This discussion is not about Windows vs. Linux, But Ubuntu 6.06 vs. Vista. Theese are not only operating systems, but they also contain desktop environments, and other stuff (btw. Ubuntu contains much more stuff than Vista).

I will not discuss general differencies between Windows and any Desktop Linux distribution. For me Linux wins in every field (costs, resources, technology).

Even if Vista looks better, it is possible to make Ubuntu look like Vista.
Ubuntu has all the fetures that Vista has (will have). And more!

Xgl/aiglx + compiz are more eye-candy than Vista.

Anyway, if someone still prefers Vista, wait for Vista+1 :twisted: ! It will provide compiz-like cubical desktop switcher, but will require 100GB of RAM and will be released 10 years from now. And do not worry! the same viruses that affect Xp, will affect Vista+1 too.

[Klaidas]

Xgl/aiglx + compiz are more eye-candy than Vista.
That depends on they eye. Anyway, compiz is still alpha.

[bodhi.zazen]

Originally Posted by GeneralCody:

Linux is not an operating system.

Depends on how you define an OS. GNU certainly is not an OS either. They go together ie Gnu/Linux.

Linux Naming Controversy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU/Linux_naming_controversy)

I, for one, say "Linux" when I mean "Gnu/Linux" and "Kernel" to refer to the Linux kernel. May not be technically correct but I'll bet this is what most do as well.

[n00b@linux]

This is not a silly discussion. It is a highly philosophical discourse about the relative merits of two fundamentally different ideologies. The answer to which is of immense importance. In the winners' corner we have the highly enlightened talent that is is the open source community. In the losers' corner we have a satanic cult known as M$.

The philosophical question being contemplated in this thread is: are you a 'winner' or a 'loser'?

In my opinion, you are neither. You are a prat.

[monktbd]

i wont buy a windows version for my home desktop.
there is nothing i would do that linux cannot.

if i need it for work my employer should pay for it.
no matter whether it is called xp, vista or vienna.

[n00b@linux]

2007: the Year of Vista

Vista Rocks!!!

[neptune39]

I dont know why people care so much about what other people are using. I also don't know why people want to pick the best operating system as too me it depends on what your doing.

For me I use OSX XP and now recently Ubuntu. They all have different strengths. XP is on my main desktop, this one remains off most of the time and is almost solely used for games, XP is great for games as im sure most people would agree. About two years ago I started to be away from home alot so a laptop was needed. In came the Apple, it was small, looked cool and OSX is stable and safe, it requires very little effort by me to keep it working and comes with some fantastic software like iphoto and imovie. It serves its purpose perfectly and gives me little trouble.

Recently I decided to re use an old PC as a media server and ubuntu suits this perfectly, it works well on the older tech and most importantly it does not crash, XP in my opinion would not be good for this as I want to set it up and leave it.

So I think each OS is suitable for certain tasks you just have to pick the right one for your requirements.

As for vista I would probally not use it for at least the first 12 months until it becomes more stable. Most of the added features are available to me now already in OSX and the desktop i use is getting a little old for the top end games that will make best use of it.

[n00b@linux]

One thing is clear:

You can customise your Ubuntu desktop to look like Vista, but you can't customise your Vista desktop to look like Ubuntu.

P.S. I am not a Troll. I am just having a really boring day at work :(

[monktbd]

You can customise your Ubuntu desktop to look like Vista, but you can't customise your Vista desktop to look like Ubuntu.



probably the most unimportant thing when it comes to comparing OS.

[kuja]

Quite honestly you couldn't pay me to go back to Windows. Even if you walked up and handed me a copy, along with 100% foolproof anti-whateverware protection for life, it'd still be way too much of a pain in the butt to maintain and use. In the end though, I think at least the plurality will probably end up "choosing" Vista (note the oxymoron) as it's the only "choice" that they have when they walk into the store to buy their new computer.

[Najand]

Does it matter? People who wants to get benefits of better technology they can, and people who wants to stick with some toys like Windows can do what they want for ever. I recommend you to see Distrowatch to see the growth of Linux Users for the past few years and the numbers of serious Windows Security Issues too... Then you can understand why we, as a Linux Communtiy, prefer linux than some close-box OSes like Windows, Mac OS or Unix.

[bobmorris]

The upgrade to the version of Vista most will want is $259. Then, as mentioned, you need new hardware, as 512mb won't make it, etc. Then you'll need new version of the av and antispyware programs.

So, the upgrade cost is quite substantial.

[aysiu]

The upgrade to the version of Vista most will want is $259. Then, as mentioned, you need new hardware, as 512mb won't make it, etc. Then you'll need new version of the av and antispyware programs.

So, the upgrade cost is quite substantial.
Which is why people won't upgrade, as has been mentioned before. They will continue to use XP until they consider their computers "too old" and then buy a computer with Vista preloaded.

Seriously. Think of your parents, your friends, your co-workers (unless you work in technology), and your acquaintances.

Can you really picture them the day Vista is released saying either "Great! Vista has arrived. I think I'll buy it, buy a RAM upgrade, and then install it tonight!" or "Vista has arrived... I want to upgrade right now, but it costs too much... I think I'll look for a free alternative like Ubuntu"?

My mother doesn't even know what "XP" is or what "2000" is. She just knows she turns on the computer and she clicks on such-and-such icon, and then she types in such-and-such, and she can check her email. There are a lot of users out there who never update their software.

A fair number of people at my workplace are still using Firefox 0.9 or 1.0.4. Do they care? Do they even know what version of Firefox they're running? Do they complain to our tech support, "Uh, my Firefox is out of date. Can you log in as administrator and get me 1.5.0.6? Thanks"? No. They couldn't care less. And these are the same people running XP at home and who will continue to run XP at home until Vista-preloaded computers become commonplace and the "old" computer at home as slowed to a screeching halt because of spyware or doesn't have enough RAM to run the latest programs.

[davebgimp]

Vista could be light years better than Ubuntu, but you still couldn't pay me to use it. Having these Vs. debates is ridiculous to me (if not redundant. How many of these threads are kicking around now?).

For me it boils down to two things:


Ubuntu (or Linux in general) gives me a strong opportunity to explore, take apart, assemble, control and understand how my computer works.
Ubuntu is free. Free of charge. Free of DRM. Free of corporate rules and ideals that put me, as the end user as a second-class citizen. Open Source is a great thing, to me. I've always felt that if you like something, support it.

I could care less which OS is better. If Ubuntu is that bad, there's other options for Linux. The point is, I believe in what Ubuntu stands for and I make a decision to work with it. If something with Ubuntu is a problem, I live with it, because this is a choice. Fortunately, Ubuntu never gave me problem that couldn't be worked around or fixed outright.

[bodhi.zazen]

Having these Vs. debates is ridiculous to me (if not redundant. How many of these threads are kicking around now?).

Not so...

This is not a silly discussion. It is a highly philosophical discourse about the relative merits of two fundamentally different ideologies.

This debate shapes both GNU/Linux and Microsoft. This discussion affects everyone, both now and in the future.

Thus the "redundant" threads.

[davebgimp]

All well and fine, but it's still redundant as far as I'm concerned. Pulling a quote out is not going to do much to sway that for me.

[grte]

It's still sort of pointless in that Dapper will be a distant memory by the time Vista arrives.

Would you like to compare Red Hat 6.1 to Vista, while you're at it?

[kwalo]

That depends on they eye. Anyway, compiz is still alpha.
Vista is not released yet, anyway. In terms of stability every Windows release is alpha for me :D

[jonathan21]

i fell differently i think ubuntu will catch up fast just remember a new verion comes out every six months and if enough people donate enough money who knows what hights ubuntu will grow to. even other linux distibution come out alot faster than windows they come out every year.

[neptune39]

I think that as long as the terminal remains as the best way to get things done you will never see the general public choose ubuntu, or any distro, over windows. It might be faster, more stable and give you all these options but an OS needs to be idiot proof, or a least seem to be simple.

I think you would all be a bit dissapointed with a version that really appealed to the average user, it would probally feel limited.

[sisonpyh]

I just browsed one of the Linux mags at lunchtime today. It was a UK mag (Linux User? Linux Today?). Anyway, it covered in detail all of the Vista features promised and how Linux delivers them today, for free.

Linux features mentioned include Beagle, Xgl, Superkaramba and Cairo.

The magazine you're speaking of is Linux Format. Excellent magazine and quite true on their statement there... 100% Linux!!! 50% SUSE 50% Ubuntu :D

More on topic: Ubuntu will catch up eventually and when Ubuntu catches up other distributions will catch up too. The open-source community uses one-another's technologies to help improve software.

Just look at it in 2004 when Ubuntu was released, it caused an uproar and today, if I'm not mistaken, it's the most popular Linux distribution and to my perspective has the potential to be the most popular OS in the world. However, windows users are too scared to change, why change if the stuff they've been using for years work. They are scared and scared for a challenge. Many people are not THAT computer literate to compile something etc. Female users want to plainly install something etc. Of course not everyone knows of the magic of Synaptic and other packages alike.

What Linux needs is for stuff to be superior than windows - not equivalent. In other words, people should say: "WOW! I can't even do this on Windows.!" and "Geez, this can do more than that on windows." Users must actually want to run Linux because of the great advantages not because it can do what Windows can do...

That's my opinion - Forever Linux... ;)

[empcrono]

yes i do to believe that if they every cam out with a linux distro that appealed to the avg usr then i would feel really limited. however i also believe that they can do both. make a gui that is really dumbed down and keep the command line for awesome users to help those usr if they need it. also dont change KDE and dumb it down because i love KDE make some tweaked version or somthing. keep those usr from tearing up my fav distro then i will be happy and so will the avg users and such. Also i also think its more important then that. i think the GNU is right. i think UBUNTU/Kubuntu, etc. I think if we let big companing like microsoft contnue to controll the market it will indeed become a problem to people like you and me. it already is to a large dagree with DVD's and stuff. but what happens when microsoft and others still feel threatend and then finaly the avg usr starts to feel the problems they wont know why on the big picture they will just notice things that get on there nerves yeah sure some might learn as we have learned but most will just deal with it. this is the big problem i see. it is getting so bad that they will patent half a volt more of eltericty going through a section on the comp as a idea that they come up with and if any one uses it they are breaking the law. this is terrible.

[glotz]

Ubuntu 6.06 Vs Windows Vista
Half-Life 2 (http://half-life2.com/) vs Duke Nukem Forever? Analogy, anybody? :mrgreen:

[Dinerty]

Why do we need to compare the both?, I think thats the real question, they are totally different platforms. Does it matter which one is better if the user's needs are fulfilled?

[gn2]

Ubuntu or any Linux will only overtake Windows for the mass market when all operations are point and click.

The average PC user doesn't want to have to try too hard...

Most people don't care how it works, just that it simply works.

Like a car they just want to get in and drive, not set up the fuel injection, modify the brakes.... OK there's some who do but they are and always will be a minority.

Linux has the potential, it just needs to shrug off the uber-geek image.
That's all it is - an image, Ubuntu is very easy to use.

But not as easy as PCLinuxOS.....

I got that installed and running fully without using a terminal once.

I know the terminal is a strength, but for noobs it can be a turn-off

[empcrono]

Still one should look at the follie of using microsoft it is bad for the consumer. It is bad for the consumer because it is horrible for the devloper. If microsoft is able to maintain its controle and contnue to do what it is doing un checked then it will at some point be able to tighten its grip on devloper to the point of no freedom no choices unless there microsft choices views or appoins this is the main reason to support GNU. and also that it Rocks the house in more ways then microsoft

[sisonpyh]

I've used PCLinuxOS too before, geez it's damn easy. It comes preloaded with codecs...AVI's works automatically, MP3's WAV's, WMA's MPEG's RealOne media files etc. The only thing I had to install was libdvdcss2 which I got from the repositories anyway...then my DVD's worked. And flash animations also works automatically thanks to Netscape plugins etc.

However it requires some dependencies when trying to install bigger stuff via CrossOver and Cedega.

(I KNOW THIS IS OFF TOPIC) Sorry :neutral:

[aysiu]

Ubuntu or any Linux will only overtake Windows for the mass market when all operations are point and click. They already are for this "average PC user" you're talking about.


The average PC user doesn't want to have to try too hard...

Most people don't care how it works, just that it simply works. Then they should buy a Ubuntu-preloaded computer (http://www.system76.com), just as they did with Windows-preloaded computer. You didn't really imagine that these "average PC users" install Windows themselves, did you?

Like a car they just want to get in and drive, not set up the fuel injection, modify the brakes.... Exactly my point.

[ljpm]

I have to vote for Windoze, as much as I hate to.

I am new to Linux and Ubuntu. I downloaded 6.06 and tried to install on an AMD 64 bit system. The installation hung up repeatedly. I then switch to the i386 version. This one installed but did not install drivers for my onboard ATI videocard leaving me with a 400*640 resolution (worth noting that the installation was also in 400*640 resolution forcing me to move window around to read and click where needed). I was finally able to get the videodriver working by reinstalling xserver. This resulted in wiping out may administrator passwords. I have found a solution to the password problem but have decided to uninstall Ubuntu instead. I might get around to trying Linux again in 5 or 10 years, or maybe I'll just switch to Mac.

[iampoch]

usabilitywise, I'd lean on the Windows platform. I use both Ubuntu and Windows and see merit in both. Linux isn't really as user-friendly yet, though with Ubuntu, it's getting there. I encountered a lot of problems with the first few weeks, and my sister, who isn't as computer-savvy as I am still doesn't share the same enthusiasm that I have with Ubuntu.

Like recently, I encountered a program that I thought wasn't in the repository (gDesklets) and downloaded the source. I had some difficulty installing it (until I found out it was in the Automatix list) via the source. My sister wouldn't put up with that (but I do since I'm really into IT)

Bottomline, Linux still needs to work with its idiot-proff user friendliness, especially now that they say Vista's more user-friendly than XP.

PS
Don't worry I myself LOVE Ubuntu and I now use it half as much as I do Windows.

[empcrono]

They already are for this "average PC user" you're talking about.

Then they should buy a Ubuntu-preloaded computer (http://www.system76.com), just as they did with Windows-preloaded computer. You didn't really imagine that these "average PC users" install Windows themselves, did you?

Exactly my point.

I think i see ware your going with this. the avg usr isnt even expected to install much of his software him self. I still get questions from people about if i can install some software for them. infact as silly as this sounds i just met some one who a a certification in guess what installing windows software lol. who needs one of those i never thought of that. windows machines come set up out of the box. everything is tweaked to ether usuable or max purfoumance. Also alot of usr dont even relize that you have to pay for software i think its free because it came with the computer. They dont relize that it was a $200 option not counting what other software it came with besides the bare OS. they dont even know what a OS is. yes most people think that most software is free they dont even think about it. that is the "computer" for them.

[gn2]

They already are for this "average PC user" you're talking about.

Then they should buy a Ubuntu-preloaded computer (http://www.system76.com),

Sorry beg to differ, when you put a DVD in an freskly installed Ubuntu box you don't get a movie, you get an error message.
OK there are philosophical reasons for this, but point and click to make it work, I don't think so. That's just one random example.

What I mean by the average PC user is the one who walks into a high street store, buys a PC takes it home and expects it all to work first time.

As for System 76, we don't all live in the "Free World"
They ain't sold that way round these here parts...

Don't get me wrong I'm a convert to Linux, and greatly appreciate having the excellent Ubuntu community to help me to "tinker" to get it to work.
I learned a lot in the process. Valuable indeed.

If and when I build another desktop PC I will not be buying a Microsoft OS for it, there's no need. It will be Ubuntu or PCLinuxOS on it.

Guess I'm not the average PC user....

[bodhi.zazen]

Sorry beg to differ, when you put a DVD in an freskly installed Ubuntu box you don't get a movie, you get an error message.
OK there are philosophical reasons for this, but point and click to make it work, I don't think so. That's just one random example.

What I mean by the average PC user is the one who walks into a high street store, buys a PC takes it home and expects it all to work first time.

As for System 76, we don't all live in the "Free World"
They ain't sold that way round these here parts...

Don't get me wrong I'm a convert to Linux, and greatly appreciate having the excellent Ubuntu community to help me to "tinker" to get it to work.
I learned a lot in the process. Valuable indeed.

If and when I build another desktop PC I will not be buying a Microsoft OS for it, there's no need. It will be Ubuntu or PCLinuxOS on it.

Guess I'm not the average PC user....

I agree with aysiu on this one. See my rant a few posts back....

I my experience, the "average PC user" uses whatever in installed for them, OS or Applications.

I am not sure the average PC user expects to play DVD's on their box, and if they got an error message they certainly would use a DVD player.

[xpod]

Old news to some but must get my two bob`s worth in....:rolleyes:

As non-users my wife and me came close to buying a shiny new XP some months back but decided to wait for the new one that was coming soon(vista).

So we opted for a cheap second hand m.e off a friend to let the young un`s get the hang of the basics and just get a feel for the things before we spent
£700 on some fancy new one................

OHHHH im a sooooo glad we made the choice we did.We got an old xp soon after
and not soon after that i found my way here........NOT fast enough!!!

YES im still going to pay ££££ for a a new pc next year but it will merely be some shiny new hardware.........i`ll do the OS part myself:mrgreen: .
By then me and my brood....and mabey even the wife will be well on our ways to being "sudo i.t experts".

GOOD STUFF.....VERY GOOD PEOPLE...........put that in yer pipe and smoke all ye disbelivers

EDIT:we don't all live in the "Free World"
They ain't sold that way round these here parts...

Surely the fact that this is all FREE should be the all the more relevant in "those" parts????...Figuring out how to play a dvd om my free system is the least of my worrys.
Not a lot of "euro`s" for "eula`s" in my pocket so dvd`s i`ll quite happily work on.......and enjoy

[gn2]

Scots are well renowned for being careful with their cash.

So we appreciate a nice freebie.

Ubuntu is a nice freebie.
That's why I started using it.
I have been pleasantly surprised at how simple it is to use.

I have given Ubuntu discs to my friends in an attempt to convert them to a better OS.

They have all given the discs back and are continuing with XP.
Either they're too lazy, or it's too difficult for them.

I love Linux, all of us here love Linux, if we want to convert more people to Linux it has to be made easier.

Do we all share the wish to convert more people to Linux?
Aysiu certainly seems to, his input to these forums is outstanding.

The growth in Linux uptake in recent times is in my opinion purely down to it becoming simpler and more user friendly.

And I have to agree, a DVD player will most definitely play a DVD.

[xpod]

lol.......i passed my Ubu and Kubu around so much that when i needed them one was in south africa and one was three pc`s across the other side o London.

I just recall seeing something about free beer and here i am.Do i get THAT once everythings installed correctly:-k

[aysiu]

Sorry beg to differ, when you put a DVD in an freskly installed Ubuntu box you don't get a movie, you get an error message. Same happens when you do a fresh Windows install, as I found out the hard way two years ago. PowerDVD may come with a computer you buy, but it does not come with Windows. Do we all share the wish to convert more people to Linux?
Aysiu certainly seems to, his input to these forums is outstanding. Actually, I have no desire at all to convert people to Linux. I think Linux should be offered as another option. Right now it feels less publicized than In-N-Out Burger's "Secret Menu." As long as people make informed choices, I don't care what operating system they use. As for System 76, we don't all live in the "Free World"
They ain't sold that way round these here parts... My point is simply that you can't compare installing and configuring Ubuntu yourself to having Dell or some other company install and configure Windows for you. If you're going to make a comparison, make a fair one--preinstalled v. preinstalled.

[enopepsoo]

Won't it really be Ubuntu 7.04 vs Windows Vista though? The new version will not be out until January.

I am looking forward to Xen virtualization in Ubuntu. Vista will never have that, except as a host, but that is very unsatisfactory.

[gn2]

Was only using DVD as an example, OK a bad one but the point remains.

Ubuntu cannot be set up easily by the average user.

Linux will continue to be an enthusiast option for some time yet.

As an enthusiast, and getting back on topic, for me Ubuntu wins hands down over any Windows OS.

And that's my final word.

Will someone please terminate this thread and others like it.
It's going nowhere...

[aysiu]

I can't even imagine 7.04... wow! Wonder what that'll bring.

I'm looking at Dapper now, a year after Hoary, and even though the changes I've noticed are all cosmetic, they're all directed toward the GUI-loving new user:

1. USplash logo instead of straight verbose text during bootup.
2. Add/Remove Programs
3. Addition of gtkorphan to the repositories
4. Inclusion of A la Carte menu editor
5. A smoother-looking Human theme with better-looking icons
6. A point-and-click live CD installer
7. Double-click .deb installation

... and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I can't even imagine in April what the Ubuntu developers will have cooked up.

[aysiu]

Was only using DVD as an example, OK a bad one but the point remains.

Ubuntu cannot be set up easily by the average user. And my point remains as well--neither can Windows. The average user does not set up operating systems. She buys them preloaded and uses them.

So until we can get Ubuntu and other Linux distros preloaded, it doesn't matter how "user friendly" they become.

[gn2]

Completely agree that installing Windows is a pain in the derriere.

And that a preloaded and configured Ubuntu system would be an excellent choice.

But it just isn't an option in the UK.

Market opportunity perhaps?

[Penzao]

umm theres one thing u guys are forgeting.

All my Games and Pirated Apps will run on windows

None of them will run on ubuntu! This is the only major problem, ubuntu is fine but i want to play counter-strike and i want to play battlefield 2. I want to watch TV through my TV tuner and i cant do these thing on ubuntu. Until that is sorted out i really dont see many people switching to linux

[monktbd]

umm theres one thing u guys are forgeting.


are we?


All my Games and Pirated Apps will run on windows


yes and?


None of them will run on ubuntu!


ahhh.
see i dont want to run your games and even less your pirated apps.
i am happy to have great software that comes for free as in free beer AND free speech.
thats is what counts for me much much more than some apps of which alot can be replaced by a free variant.

quite a few games run under linux using wine or native although it can be a hassle to setup.

but i agree that most people dont care whether they are running a legal system or not.
and as long as that helps microsoft to be #1 in OS it wont matter that much to them.

[xpod]

If i want to play games i stick one of my sons numerous consoles on...ps2,xbox etc etc...

If i want to learn all about viruses,dodgy dll`s and how to use "bootdisks"
I put xp/m.e on....

If i want to learn how to use computers a bit better i put Ubunto on

[caravela]

this kind of topics are pointless, it is all the same over and over. Firt there is more than meets the eye in a O.S. APIs, Developer tools, documentation, etc.
Eye candy, free stuff are pointless, if you want to someone to develop for your O.S. get them tools, documentaion and APIs. Get the developers first and the user will come after.

[DonS]

I can't even imagine 7.04... wow! Wonder what that'll bring.

I'm looking at Dapper now, a year after Hoary, and even though the changes I've noticed are all cosmetic, they're all directed toward the GUI-loving new user:

1. USplash logo instead of straight verbose text during bootup.
2. Add/Remove Programs
3. Addition of gtkorphan to the repositories
4. Inclusion of A la Carte menu editor
5. A smoother-looking Human theme with better-looking icons
6. A point-and-click live CD installer
7. Double-click .deb installation

... and that's just what I can think of off the top of my head. I can't even imagine in April what the Ubuntu developers will have cooked up.

Things to look for in 7.04, off the top of my head:
1) New, faster, shinier startup (new init system - upstart)
1a) New, faster, shinier shutdown
2) Bling-y effects on by default
3) Better usplash - more colours, higher resolution
4) Improved speed

All these (except 2) are already available in Edgy (6.10). I think the reason the bling isn't on by default is that they're still waiting for nvidia / ati to release the correct drivers.

Other improvements are sure to follow (xorg configuration tool, firefox 3.0, new theme). Don't forget, its not just Ubuntu who are improving, its everyone: Ubuntu, GNOME, Xorg, kernel, KDE, other random packages, everything that goes into making Ubuntu.

[enopepsoo]

I can't even imagine 7.04... wow! Wonder what that'll bring.



I don't see any point in releasing 7.04, Ubuntu is already perfect.

[kencoe]

I Hate to be (apparently) the only one to point this out, but by the time MS really gets the bugs out and does a public release dapper will be history. There will be AT LEAST one more upgrade before Vista is ready.

I would also remind you that Vista will not be like the Betas we see now. You are making an impossible comparison; the daily Beta revisions of a switchover OS against a stable Release that will be replaced by another stable release before we really see what is staying from the Vista beta.

[Eddie Wilson]

Hello,
What is the point of this thread? Sad to say we live in a point and click world now. Most people who own computers have no knowledge of the operating system or do they really care. I've been working on these boxes for twenty some years so I've seen it all. And what I believe is that Windows helps the promotion of Ubuntu and linux. I've installed more linux os's because of people having trouble in Windows that they can't seem to fix. As I've said before I love Ubuntu but make money off of Windows repairs. Its a crazy world.
Sorry to Ramble On,
Eddie

[davebgimp]

I just recall seeing something about free beer and here i am.Do i get THAT once everythings installed correctly:-k

It'd be nice, wouldn't it? I've installed (K)Ubuntu so many times, that I now make a rule to always do it with a drink in hand. I pop in the CD, crack a beer or pour a glass of wine and watch the install go by. It's much, much better this way.

[msandersen]

Hello,
What is the point of this thread?
The point, and others like it before, is for Ubuntu users to feel smug while deluding themselves Dapper or Edgy is any match for Vista or even XP. Yes, by next year when Vista is generally available, XGL may just be stable and ready for the mainstream and things like Beagle refined enough to be standard, but it still won't be as user-friendly or have the application support etc.
Of course, then there's the problem of proprietary display drivers etc, which people will have to figure out on their own how to install and configure. They'll get as far as cursing Linux for not being able to play their MP3s, print to their Lexmark printers, or play 3D games without ever knowing why. Without the display drivers, no fancy XGL, just crappy old X-Windows with the poor performance offered by Gnome. Unless AMD's purchase of ATI somehow resolves into GPL 3D display drivers driving nVidia to follow suit, that won't change anytime soon. Legally that means OEMs can't distribute Linux with official display drivers either. Even SuSE who are developing XGL won't. There won't be any major availability of preinstalled systems anyway due to the covert pressure from Microsoft on the OEMs. They know which side their bread is buttered.

[bodhi.zazen]

Not to mention Windows users touting Vista.

[kencoe]

The point, and others like it before, is for Ubuntu users to feel smug while deluding themselves Dapper or Edgy is any match for Vista or even XP...

this is not even close to a true statement.

We could point out the fact the Microsoft uses Unix and Linux throughout its network on various mission critical systems. We can point out that their own Windows servers (particularly the ones which run the registration system) have been crashing pretty regularly, and that their fixes consistantly create more holes than they fix. We could also point out that almost all hardware made in the last five years requires a third party driver, and that the list of incompatible hardware and software for XP is EXTREMELY long. we could reference the fact that most average users could not get a windows system to run from a fresh install (even without the expansive list of necessary security tweaks) let alone play DIVX, DVD, Realplayer, Quicktime, Shockwave... without the thoughtful assistance of some very helpful website re-direction by third party friends.

Windows is no different than Linux in that it is not quite ready to run out of the box.

Just about anyone here can give you an extremely extended list of problems with XP that Ubuntu does not have, but we are trying to focus on the needs of Ubuntu users and the OS itself.

As for the tone of this comment, I am sorry that you feel this way. I wonder if it was made out of frustration, or out of the desire to start a flame. The tone of that first sentence seems to be a deliberate insult, and could be considered trolling. I sincerely hope that this is not the case.

[motin]

I love Ubuntu and all that comes with it. But I am a web programmer and seasoned computer user, probably like most of you who read this post. Still - I can't recommend anyone I know to format their hard drive and use Ubuntu as the sole OS on their computers. (Instead I promote people to dual-boot install as described in http://wiki.motin.eu/HowToComfortablySwitchFromWindowsToUbuntu)

XP/Vista is simply superior to Ubuntu, although not in a developer-friendly way (so what?). A Windows computer WORKS - all the time (at least when newly installed), and that is enough for most people.

When Ubuntu fixes basic stuff as working hibernation & S-Video output, stable easy wireless networking, a full-fledged Xgl, working mediacenter software, a pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 (preferably with great software like Picasa bundled in there) and a killer help system that focuses on pre-windows users we will start talking...

But as for know, Dapper Drake is simply a hell of a good operating system for the price - but not for the efforts and missing capabilities that comes with switching from XP/Vista if you are not a seasoned computer user.

USABILITY FOR THE DUMMIES - will win the world's hearts.

My bet is that Ubuntu will be the leading OS in a matter of ten years from now. The open-source development in the world will accelerate in a significantly higher pace than MS can hire new employees.

What Ubuntu needs though more than all, is feedback from the DUMMIES. That is all our friends that do no more than checking their e-mail, chatting on MSN and/or playing games. When the dummies can use and be satisfied with Ubuntu for extended periods of time, I and probably all of you would honestly recommend your computer-noob friends to start installing Ubuntu on their machines, and that will be the break-through moment for Ubuntu...

If you reply, do NOT reply with exaggerated statements on all spyware and adware a Windows computer collects, or how Bill Gates rips you off, almost illegally etc - Windows is a great OS - even if it doesn't fit just you! But please, if you have a sensible and honest opinion in this matter - I'd really like to hear it!

EDIT:

Required Article
Please read http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth before posting any replies. This to keep the replies relevant and constructive. Thank you!

[motin]

I can't read all hundreds replies to this, but I'll give my five cents:

XP/Vista is technologically superior to Ubuntu, although not in a developer-friendly way. A Windows computer WORKS - all the time (at least when newly installed), and that is enough for now.

When Ubuntu fixes S-Video output, stable easy wireless networking, full-fledged Xgl and a pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 we will start talking...

But as for know, Dapper Drake is simply a hell of a good operating system for the price - but not for the efforts and missing capabilities that comes with switching from XP/Vista if you are not a seasoned computer user.

USABILITY FOR THE DUMMIES - will win the world's hearts.

I just made a new thread from this instead: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=1474819

[Inhumane]

I gotta agree, in Windows I'm so used to having things work as soon as you install them, and the ease of installation and configuration of everything... in Linux you have to download Libraries, type 9964526 commands, search HowTos, break your head wondering WTF to do next, installing dependencies, using some other persons software instead of a real developer who works for money... but a few days ago I completely got rid of my Windows so I can have a challange... I knew the ins and outs of windows and it no longer interested me to use it

[ciscosurfer]

I think it's all a matter of preference. Proprietary and open-source techonologies alike have both their respective pros and cons.

I prefer a robust command-line with an extensive feature-set, and I get that in droves with Ubuntu (and Linux in general). Some users balk at this, others praise it and swear by it. I guess I'm in the latter group.

For users making the jump from Windows, using Ubuntu for the first time can be both intimidating and frustrating. But try to remember when you first used Windows; did everything go smoothly?

I could probably write a lot more on this issue but I think I will end my comments here and let them speak for themselves.

In the end, it's all a matter of preference.

[macewan]

"at least when newly installed"

that basicly says it all

XP doesn't come with any useful software. Wordpad? F*&king please. There might be slight difficulties at times sure but if you've ever watched a Windows network getting raped by a virus/worm you might sing a different tune.

I only recommend Windows to people I dislike. If they need something easier than Ubuntu I always recommend Apple products. Even in the small rural town I live in at the moment it seems like everyone is getting Apple computers. \\:D/

[llamakc]

He had me at "Dummies."

[Bigguy2468]

I just browsed one of the Linux mags at lunchtime today. It was a UK mag (Linux User? Linux Today?). Anyway, it covered in detail all of the Vista features promised and how Linux delivers them today, for free.

Linux features mentioned include Beagle, Xgl, Superkaramba and Cairo.

Yes, but not without configuration and most people don't want to learn how to do that. I work in the new housing industry installing home networks for people who want to share an Internet connection on multiple computers. In most cases, the people that I deal with are very primitive in what they know about their machines. I don't know how many times I have tried to help someone install a new router on a sloooooow spyware and virus ridden machine and they are total oblivious to the fact that this isn't the way that a computer is suppose to work, they think it's normal! Some computer stores are making a fortune getting rid of spyware.

In general, the majority of people out there are "point and click" type of people. They want to sit at their machine and surf the web, view movie trailers, check their email, pay their bills online, get songs for their iPod and chat. The biggest obstacle for any Linux distribution has been ease of configuring plugins, software installation, etc., but things are getting better. I have tried many distros and so far ubuntu is getting it right, just needs more time. For the majority of people, they don't quite understand why you need a plugin like Shockwave or Flash for some sites, they just think that there is something wrong with their computer when the picture doesn't show on the page. That is why MS uses ActiveX, etc, to hand hold and automatically install the plugin for you, you know, "click here to install the plugin". Whether you like it or not, that is what the masses of people out there want IMO. Most people are totally ignorant to the security vunerabilities of such plugins as ActiveX, that's why I run into so many machines reeking with spyware and 15 tools bars from Yahoo, and whatever, at the top of the browser. Windows has made "dummies" of the masses where most know little to nothing about the machines they use, but quite frankly, that is exactly where they want people. It's not like the days of DOS where you actually had to learn something.

Linux can do just about anything as Windows can and more, but not without some unfamiliar configuration to most Windows users.

The verdict?
Most people don't want to take time to learn Linux because they hardly know Windows. Hopefully as more and more people begin to use distros like ubuntu it will catch on with the masses.

[Inhumane]

I think it's all a matter of preference. Proprietary and open-source techonologies alike have both their respective pros and cons.

I prefer a robust command-line with an extensive feature-set, and I get that in droves with Ubuntu (and Linux in general). Some users balk at this, others praise it and swear by it. I guess I'm in the latter group.

For users making the jump from Windows, using Ubuntu for the first time can be both intimidating and frustrating. But try to remember when you first used Windows; did everything go smoothly?

I could probably write a lot more on this issue but I think I will end my comments here and let them speak for themselves.

In the end, it's all a matter of preference.
I was about 7 when I got my first computer and it was Windows 95, and I remember installing things was a lot easier, I certainly didn't have internet to search HowTos and I managed to install games and browse some dirs easily... unlike Linux

[skymt]

Ubuntu (well, GNU/Linux/Unix in general) is, in my opinion, a far superior OS for power users. As I am a power user, that's all I really care about. ;)

It may seem traitorous of me, but I don't tell non-technical folks to install Linux. The cost/benefit ratio is too poor right now. Cost in terms of difficulty and compatibility, obviously (certainly not money).

I just give them some general advice to make XP more usable. Ditch Norton for a free light AV, install two anti-spyware apps and use the real-time features of one, and turn off/uninstall stuff that isn't needed. Add Firefox and OpenOffice.org, and you have pretty much the best non-Mac desktop for a neophyte who doesn't have an expert on call.

Macs are good, but expensive. People don't want to buy a new computer, they want to make the one they have better.

I have my mother using Linux, but she can call me for advice. Without 1:1 support like that, Windows is currently better for non-experts.

EDIT: How could I forget? Linux is user-friendly. It's just picky about its friends!

[macewan]

Then I highly suggest you not trying to drive a car any time soon. If Ubuntu is too difficult for you then please don't drive.

In Ubuntu you try something and it might not work but in a car if you screw up people could die. 8-[


I was about 7 when I got my first computer and it was Windows 95, and I remember installing things was a lot easier, I certainly didn't have internet to search HowTos and I managed to install games and browse some dirs easily... unlike Linux

[aysiu]

If you reply, do NOT reply with exaggerated statements on all spyware and adware a Windows computer collects, or how Bill Gates rips you off, almost illegally etc Why are you allowed to make exaggerated statements about how Windows always works?

[BLTicklemonster]

He makes some compelling points, you know. I'm back after a haitus of several months, and I gotta tell you, it's a major pain in the butt getting ubuntu up right. I think that a definitive HOW TO somewhere obvious which had info on all newb questions (getting partitions to show, mounting dvd drives, getting video card drivers to work right, etc) would be a great addition for people who will ultimately leave if they have to try to seek out the right answers from a brazillion threads.

One thing I'd have thought dapper would have is a "restore to most recent working environment" button right out front where a person would hit it just before sudo -R'ing their /usr directory or whatever. Yes, there's posts in here that tell you how to do it, but it's just software settings to keep, right? How hard would it be to have a failsafe button already?

(and yeah, I'm one of those people who always turns off system restore / virus bunker when I install XP... because I rarely ever ever ever have to reinstall windows, and when I do, I bet you a pizza and a beer, I'll have it up running right ages before I could get Ubuntu up right)

But Ubuntu is cooler than heck, so here I am, ready to reinstall again, looking over threads taking notes so that next time I might not have problems again.

[jperez]

Wow...I'm speechless.

I'm an XP user and Ubuntu user...I'll take Ubuntu over XP/Vista ANYDAY!

As you clearly stated:

"at least when newly installed"

I KNOW that for a fact as I am a computer tech and extensive Windows user, yet I've always been looking for an alternative to Windows....and I have found it! Windows XP/Vista not only is slow as it ages, it locks up, programs crash, not to mention the endless amount of spyware, adware, viruses, back door programs, Trojans, plus the many software titles that have a high price tag. I prefer free, especially when faced with a tight budget, like most people in the world that even have a computer.

Also, don't tell me that only people with money can have a computer and thus can buy all the software they need. Why? The laptop I have I got for free at a garage sale. Look in the right places and you get stuff for free, even a decent computer.

Anyway, XP/Vista is good is you want to have trouble setting up a system, and Vista even worse due to it's extensive need on CPU speed and RAM, which is expensive nowadays, but if you need a system that WORKS, then Ubuntu is the best thing to have on your hard drive. The only reason I use XP, even now, is for Photoshop and Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer, other than that, I'd through it out the window...no pun intended.

--End Rant--

Jesse~

[AlReece45]

Sure, Windows has its ups, and so does Ubuntu, but they both have their downs.

My father's laptop runs XP. I have to say it peforms absoultely horrible on it. He's never "Connected" to his wireless network, it always takes forever, says it can't connect, then it says "Not Connected" next to the wireless network. But that's the bad part, the bad part is that it IS connected, it recieved an IP address and finished the connection. He can browse the internet and do whatever on the internet for about half an hour before Windows decides its time to close the connection and he has to make it be "Not Connected" again. Out of four notebooks, his is the only one with this issue.

Works out of the box? Ha! Go get the Windows XP CD, install it and see how much it has. You might be able to browse the internet and check your email, if the drivers are there. Of course, text-editing is available via wordpad, but of course you'll need to install the printer drivers print anything.

After getting all the drivers installed, now its time to do all hundred or so security updates... Boy, that took a while, considering I had to restart 3 times before I got all of them, now I believe this is the last batch of updates... or is it...

(BTW, this is based on a SP2 install, if you install with SP1 disk or a regular XP disk... that's goign to take a long time to update)

So, please help me see how Windows works out of the box? As far as I see, it doesn't. It appears to be the computer makers job of making thier computer work out of the box, not the Operating System. So, just like windows, I don't expect to have any Linux Distrubution to just work after a "fresh" install.

[diablozx9]

The guy that started this thread must work for Microsoft.
Why would ANYONE post that ?????????????????
This forum is "DESKTOP SUPPORT" not "Usless and confrentational Opinion".

Thanks,

[tturrisi]

Both operating systems (xp-linux) have their pros & cons. I agree, windows is easier for the novice, more user friendly, has more hardware support and in general it just works. Linux, has pluspoints too: security, stability, etc.

The KEY to using these operating systems is to use them for their respective best tasks. I use debian on my servers, xppro on my production desktop & dual boot debian etch-xp on my notebook. I prefer debian on my notebook because of the security and the wifi capabilities (kismet, wireshark, etc) and use it when setting up & sec auditing clients' wifi lans.

For web development I prefer windows because I can code a php script that also contains html & view it as I create it in Internet Explorer. Firefox cannot view php-html files (always prompts to download a php file) unless one has php & a wwww server installed.

Open source & freedom software are great, but this world runs on economics, which is why these types of software will never ever become market leaders.

[Uncle Spellbinder]

Once configured to your liking, Ubuntu (Dapper) is my OS of choice. Superior to XP by a long shot, in my opinion. I've not logged on to XP for nearly 3 months (with the exception of testing Windows version of Firefox builds for about an hour a day). I don't miss Windows at all. Though I'm glad I'm dual booting just in case the necessity arises.

[Jheric]

I'm a long time Windows user (since 3.1) and have done regular tech support for my community for years. 90%+ of everyone I service is on a PC with Windows.

I have been toying with Linux for a couple years and, honestly, it has just recently gotten to the place where I can reccomend it for full use. I have 2 customers who have made the switch and, so far, they are happy. Neither are notebooks however and both are dual-boot.

As for my own experience, Windows is a great operating system when, you said it, it is NEWLY installed. Sometimes within weeks it's speed can cut in two and, even with good anti-spyware, can become sickly.

The fact is, those who I have shared Linux with are much more open to learning how to use Synaptic to get software and how to search ubuntu forums for copy/paste commands in the terminal. Truth be told, that is a heck of a lot easier than maintaining a Windows machine!

The main hurdle facing Linux, in my opinion, is Wine efficiency. If Wine can master the MS API so that most software will run out of the box then I think the battle will be won. Sure there are other problems in Ubuntu, but most are less critical than the problems with Windows. If Linux can attract the education or government crowd, it won't take but a year or two before major companies begin to accomodate Linux users.

Lastly, it is my opinion that as common, platform-independant, languages continue to attract new developers, it won't be long before OS is simply a matter of preference. Sure, there are hurdles to cross before that happens... but it will.

2c

[christxr]

Maybe Ubuntu (Linux) developers should come up with "Dumbuntu." This will take care of all the xtreme noobs. Straight out of the box all the normal linux stuff works like windows but locked down with some kind of config at first-boot that lets people pick their user level. Once people get more saavy they can upgrade their user level or something which gives them more access to console and advanced stuff etc. Many people really only need email, web, word-processing, able to print, download photos from their camera type stuff. I have no idea if something like this would work but what the hell do I know. I'm a relative noob myself but have crafted a SUPER-DAPPER!!!

[Uncle Spellbinder]

"Dumbuntu"???

Couldn't you have said something like "NoobBuntu"? Cheap shot, really.

[etank]

I believe that every OS has its uses.

Windows
There are some applications that will only run on Windows and are needed for business reasons. Then there are the gamers. I am not a gamer but most game developers are creating their stuff for the Windows users because there are more of them so there is more money to be made that way. Apps like cedega are bridging that gap though.

Macs
Macs are great at doing graphic stuff and video editing. There are come cool apps that I would love to see for Linux or Windows that only run on Macs as well (Textmate). Also they have some sexy eye-candy to boot.

*nix / BSD
These are the everything systems. They run watches, routers, firewalls, webservers, database servers, etc. It used to be just for the geeks among us but that is changing. I am always trying to show people that I know about Ubuntu. I have set up a server or two at work to monitor the network and keep an eye on the other systems. This is my OS of choice for everything. I only use Windows because that is what my company wants/has to have.

I was a contractor for the state government where I live for three years and we go to the point where we were setting up new Windows servers on VMware ESX servers because we didn't trust Windows to stay stable on its own. In case you didn't know ESX server is a stripped down Linux kernel that allows the VM to run on the bare metal.

Just me opinions though.

[dwasifar]

I prefer a robust command-line with an extensive feature-set, and I get that in droves with Ubuntu (and Linux in general). Some users balk at this, others praise it and swear by it. I guess I'm in the latter group.

For users making the jump from Windows, using Ubuntu for the first time can be both intimidating and frustrating. But try to remember when you first used Windows; did everything go smoothly?

I kept reminding myself of this very thing when I was first setting up my Ubuntu box, dealing with Samba, editing /etc/fstab, and so forth. It's amazing how much Windows knowledge you take for granted after you've been doing it a while, and the learning process of a fundamentally different OS brings that home to you forcefully. Where is Control Panel? Where is C:\Program Files? What is sudo? You get your bearings after a while, but it makes you feel like an amateur until you do.

I was about 7 when I got my first computer and it was Windows 95, and I remember installing things was a lot easier, I certainly didn't have internet to search HowTos and I managed to install games and browse some dirs easily... unlike Linux

I have had more success if I think of it comparing it to the learning curve of Windows 3.1. I'm not meaning to compare the two in robustness and functionality; far from it. But the Ubuntu we usually think of is a graphical shell sitting on top of a command-line interface, which is what 3.1 was; and in 3.1 you'd often have to go behind the scenes and edit configuration files, run DOS commands, and so on to make things work. That was difficult for non-technical users, so a lot of that stuff is hidden in Win95/98/XP.

My rule of thumb is, if someone is the kind of Windows user who still opens a DOS box to have command-line control, they could probably be a Linux user. If they're not, then they probably are not ready to take on the higher technical challenge of configuring and troubleshooting a Linux installation.

[coastdweller]

I disagree.

XP/Vista is not superior to Ubuntu from an informed perspective.

Installing Windows XP requires me to authenticate to a "Higher source", what is higher than my own computer? Apparently Microsoft.

After installing Microsoft's products I have to go "places" to get something updated.

On my Kubuntu I stay on the machine and "Tell" the Internet to do this for me.

If I want to install a decent Organizer, word, and spreadsheet program in Windows I have to have a CD purchased from somewhere else and after its installed, I have to close it manually just to shut off "My" computer.

If I want the same type of software in Kubuntu I open up a console window and install it from the Internet, without opening a browser, asking for permission, or having a disk.

After its done installing I dont have to "Ask for permission to use it", I simply do.

Its light compared to the Windows version and actually closes when I shut off the computer.

I believe XP/Vista is and will continue to be behind Ubuntu.

Microsoft moves too slow.. Ubuntu is alive and kicking and I believe the easiest and most enjoyable experience for a new linux user.

[Cynical]

I dont agree with you, but at least I respected your opinion. Until I read this...

Windows is a great OS - even if it doesn't fit just you!

Windows (all of them) is NOT a great OS. And I'm not just talking about the fact that they leave severe security flaws with no solution for months at a time, but that they support drm and actually patch it more quickly than their operating systems essential components! Or how about the fact that only recently did we know our computers have been sending information back to microsoft headquarters? How are we supposed to believe that it only sends back non identifiable information like cd keys when they wont even tell us its doing it in the first place? I could name many reasons why windows is terrible, but its late so I'd rather refute what you've mentioned.

Hibernation & S-Video Output - In time

Stable, Easy Wireless Networking - Done, buy one of the many cards supported by the linux kernel. Most of which support all the latest standards (802.11g / WPA2 / etc) The list grows everyday.

Full Fledged XGL - If by full fledged you mean working, we have that. If you meant click a button to turn it on type of functionality, its getting there. At least we have a stable implementation at this point.

Working Mediacenter Software - Done

WINE version 2.0 - unnecessary

USABILITY FOR THE DUMMIES

Its microsoft's fault we have dumb users in the first place. Linux is easily usable by those who arent too attached to the windows way of doing things.

I suggest you read this (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)


I was about 7 when I got my first computer and it was Windows 95, and I remember installing things was a lot easier, I certainly didn't have internet to search HowTos and I managed to install games and browse some dirs easily... unlike Linux

Actually Ubuntu has a much easier method of installing software. You just search for it using Add/Remove Programs or Synaptic, then checkmark what you want installed. You can install games easily and browsing directories has never been a problem. And Looking at HowTo's isn't that necessary unless you want to experiment with new software or use restricted formats.

[rjdohnert]

I agree with this assesment. Windows is a much easier OS and despite what many say can be made secure. What makes me hesitant to recommend Ubuntu to the average consumer is that things are not as easy as Mac or Windows. The Linux distribution I recommend the most ois Foresight Linux or even PCLinuxOS to users who want to learn Linux and have a fast usable setup out of box. Ubuntu needs to start bundling ndiswrapper and the GUI utility for loading those drivers as well as native MP3 and multimedia playback using proprietary formats.

[galileon]

Once configured to your liking, Ubuntu (Dapper) is my OS of choice. Superior to XP by a long shot, in my opinion. I've not logged on to XP for nearly 3 months (with the exception of testing Windows version of Firefox builds for about an hour a day). I don't miss Windows at all. Though I'm glad I'm dual booting just in case the necessity arises.

i got xp to run under vmware, just in case i need it in the future!! lol

[Subetealabici]

I don' now wy all the people is always looking for a diference or a kind of superiority with win and ubuntu, i tried to install win at mi pc and get wrong to times with the original software, and find ubuntu at the internet, now a think there is no kind of comparation, is a diferent thing, my pc always keep working and never gona be back at windows, dont realy care about have some extra work to install new stuff,

Happy ubuntu user

[motin]

I think it's all a matter of preference. Proprietary and open-source techonologies alike have both their respective pros and cons.

I prefer a robust command-line with an extensive feature-set, and I get that in droves with Ubuntu (and Linux in general). Some users balk at this, others praise it and swear by it. I guess I'm in the latter group.

For users making the jump from Windows, using Ubuntu for the first time can be both intimidating and frustrating. But try to remember when you first used Windows; did everything go smoothly?

I could probably write a lot more on this issue but I think I will end my comments here and let them speak for themselves.

In the end, it's all a matter of preference.

So it is.

"at least when newly installed"

that basicly says it all

XP doesn't come with any useful software. Wordpad? F*&king please. There might be slight difficulties at times sure but if you've ever watched a Windows network getting raped by a virus/worm you might sing a different tune.

I only recommend Windows to people I dislike. If they need something easier than Ubuntu I always recommend Apple products. Even in the small rural town I live in at the moment it seems like everyone is getting Apple computers. \\:D/

Windows comes with the "useful software" of for instance being capable of playing a DVD out of the box. And even putting the moviepicture on the TV if I wanted to. It connects to my wireless lan in a matter of minutes and lets me easily set my screen resolution and monitor refresh rate. It allows me to download MSN and chat with my friends and lets me shove in the iPod CD to install iTunes and software for my iPod giving me a musical workstation. For me as a power-user, it will even easily let me download and install lots of great open-source software in a matter of hours - giving a decent, relatively secure, stable and "cheap" (since I already payed for the license in the price of the computer long time ago) workstation.

I was about 7 when I got my first computer and it was Windows 95, and I remember installing things was a lot easier, I certainly didn't have internet to search HowTos and I managed to install games and browse some dirs easily... unlike Linux

Ubuntu is already further down the road than Windows 95 in usability, but doesn't beat XP/Vista yet, imo.

Ubuntu (well, GNU/Linux/Unix in general) is, in my opinion, a far superior OS for power users. As I am a power user, that's all I really care about. ;)

It may seem traitorous of me, but I don't tell non-technical folks to install Linux. The cost/benefit ratio is too poor right now. Cost in terms of difficulty and compatibility, obviously (certainly not money).

I just give them some general advice to make XP more usable. Ditch Norton for a free light AV, install two anti-spyware apps and use the real-time features of one, and turn off/uninstall stuff that isn't needed. Add Firefox and OpenOffice.org, and you have pretty much the best non-Mac desktop for a neophyte who doesn't have an expert on call.

Macs are good, but expensive. People don't want to buy a new computer, they want to make the one they have better.

I have my mother using Linux, but she can call me for advice. Without 1:1 support like that, Windows is currently better for non-experts.

EDIT: How could I forget?

Well spoken. I share your every opinion in your post.

He makes some compelling points, you know. I'm back after a haitus of several months, and I gotta tell you, it's a major pain in the butt getting ubuntu up right. I think that a definitive HOW TO somewhere obvious which had info on all newb questions (getting partitions to show, mounting dvd drives, getting video card drivers to work right, etc) would be a great addition for people who will ultimately leave if they have to try to seek out the right answers from a brazillion threads.

That is a brilliant idea. I recently wrote it down to my personal wishlisht some days ago as well. A collection of about ten thousand useful HOWTO's should preferably be indexed and incorporated in the Ubuntu searchable help system for reference. Also, helping scripts like http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=148593&postcount=9 should be embedded and connected to a newbie support system, similar to Windows step to step guides (although made far better of course) - it will help a lot.

One thing I'd have thought dapper would have is a "restore to most recent working environment" button right out front where a person would hit it just before sudo -R'ing their /usr directory or whatever. Yes, there's posts in here that tell you how to do it, but it's just software settings to keep, right? How hard would it be to have a failsafe button already?

System restore functionality - yes, it is a great thing for dummies who screw up their system and do not make regular backups.

Wow...I'm speechless.

I'm an XP user and Ubuntu user...I'll take Ubuntu over XP/Vista ANYDAY!

As you clearly stated:

"at least when newly installed"

I KNOW that for a fact as I am a computer tech and extensive Windows user, yet I've always been looking for an alternative to Windows....and I have found it! Windows XP/Vista not only is slow as it ages, it locks up, programs crash, not to mention the endless amount of spyware, adware, viruses, back door programs, Trojans, plus the many software titles that have a high price tag. I prefer free, especially when faced with a tight budget, like most people in the world that even have a computer.

Also, don't tell me that only people with money can have a computer and thus can buy all the software they need. Why? The laptop I have I got for free at a garage sale. Look in the right places and you get stuff for free, even a decent computer.

Anyway, XP/Vista is good is you want to have trouble setting up a system, and Vista even worse due to it's extensive need on CPU speed and RAM, which is expensive nowadays, but if you need a system that WORKS, then Ubuntu is the best thing to have on your hard drive. The only reason I use XP, even now, is for Photoshop and Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer, other than that, I'd through it out the window...no pun intended.

--End Rant--

Jesse~

That is: Works for YOU. Nice, but my post was about the preference of the majority - the dummies. And we _need_ the dummies in order to excel. (Btw, Photoshop CS runs over wine with some tweaks)

Sure, Windows has its ups, and so does Ubuntu, but they both have their downs.

My father's laptop runs XP. I have to say it peforms absoultely horrible on it. He's never "Connected" to his wireless network, it always takes forever, says it can't connect, then it says "Not Connected" next to the wireless network. But that's the bad part, the bad part is that it IS connected, it recieved an IP address and finished the connection. He can browse the internet and do whatever on the internet for about half an hour before Windows decides its time to close the connection and he has to make it be "Not Connected" again. Out of four notebooks, his is the only one with this issue.

Works out of the box? Ha! Go get the Windows XP CD, install it and see how much it has. You might be able to browse the internet and check your email, if the drivers are there. Of course, text-editing is available via wordpad, but of course you'll need to install the printer drivers print anything.

After getting all the drivers installed, now its time to do all hundred or so security updates... Boy, that took a while, considering I had to restart 3 times before I got all of them, now I believe this is the last batch of updates... or is it...

(BTW, this is based on a SP2 install, if you install with SP1 disk or a regular XP disk... that's goign to take a long time to update)

So, please help me see how Windows works out of the box? As far as I see, it doesn't. It appears to be the computer makers job of making thier computer work out of the box, not the Operating System. So, just like windows, I don't expect to have any Linux Distrubution to just work after a "fresh" install.

I mentioned about a lot of stuff that works out of the box that most linux-fanatics doesn't seem to acknowledge. Also - my post clearly mentions XP/Vista - I do not believe Vista has the same installation troubles you've mentioned.

The guy that started this thread must work for Microsoft.
Why would ANYONE post that ?????????????????
This forum is "DESKTOP SUPPORT" not "Usless and confrentational Opinion".

Thanks,

"I love Ubuntu and all that comes with it"

Do not make any more replies to this post before you find a MS employee with that in mind. It is those who aren't humble enough to realize the reality of Ubuntu in it's current state - that slows development towards the common masses down.

Both operating systems (xp-linux) have their pros & cons. I agree, windows is easier for the novice, more user friendly, has more hardware support and in general it just works. Linux, has pluspoints too: security, stability, etc.

For web development I prefer windows because I can code a php script that also contains html & view it as I create it in Internet Explorer. Firefox cannot view php-html files (always prompts to download a php file) unless one has php & a wwww server installed.

A pretty odd note I say. I use Ubuntu mainly for the web development features. Download XAMP for linux, install "quanta" from synaptic - and you will be blown to pieces with how superior GNU/Linux is in web development.

Why do you code in .php-files when not having php-code in it btw?

Once configured to your liking, Ubuntu (Dapper) is my OS of choice. Superior to XP by a long shot, in my opinion.

So true.

I'm a long time Windows user (since 3.1) and have done regular tech support for my community for years. 90%+ of everyone I service is on a PC with Windows.

I have been toying with Linux for a couple years and, honestly, it has just recently gotten to the place where I can reccomend it for full use. I have 2 customers who have made the switch and, so far, they are happy. Neither are notebooks however and both are dual-boot.

As for my own experience, Windows is a great operating system when, you said it, it is NEWLY installed. Sometimes within weeks it's speed can cut in two and, even with good anti-spyware, can become sickly.

The fact is, those who I have shared Linux with are much more open to learning how to use Synaptic to get software and how to search ubuntu forums for copy/paste commands in the terminal. Truth be told, that is a heck of a lot easier than maintaining a Windows machine!

The main hurdle facing Linux, in my opinion, is Wine efficiency. If Wine can master the MS API so that most software will run out of the box then I think the battle will be won. Sure there are other problems in Ubuntu, but most are less critical than the problems with Windows. If Linux can attract the education or government crowd, it won't take but a year or two before major companies begin to accomodate Linux users.

Lastly, it is my opinion that as common, platform-independant, languages continue to attract new developers, it won't be long before OS is simply a matter of preference. Sure, there are hurdles to cross before that happens... but it will.

2c

Well spoken.

Maybe Ubuntu (Linux) developers should come up with "Dumbuntu." This will take care of all the xtreme noobs. Straight out of the box all the normal linux stuff works like windows but locked down with some kind of config at first-boot that lets people pick their user level. Once people get more saavy they can upgrade their user level or something which gives them more access to console and advanced stuff etc. Many people really only need email, web, word-processing, able to print, download photos from their camera type stuff. I have no idea if something like this would work but what the hell do I know. I'm a relative noob myself but have crafted a SUPER-DAPPER!!!

I believe Ubuntu is there already. You can all those mentioned tasks from a fresh install. It is about what user's have to do if anything goes slightly wrong or doesn't work as it's supposed to.

I kept reminding myself of this very thing when I was first setting up my Ubuntu box, dealing with Samba, editing /etc/fstab, and so forth. It's amazing how much Windows knowledge you take for granted after you've been doing it a while, and the learning process of a fundamentally different OS brings that home to you forcefully. Where is Control Panel? Where is C:\Program Files? What is sudo? You get your bearings after a while, but it makes you feel like an amateur until you do.

I have had more success if I think of it comparing it to the learning curve of Windows 3.1. I'm not meaning to compare the two in robustness and functionality; far from it. But the Ubuntu we usually think of is a graphical shell sitting on top of a command-line interface, which is what 3.1 was; and in 3.1 you'd often have to go behind the scenes and edit configuration files, run DOS commands, and so on to make things work. That was difficult for non-technical users, so a lot of that stuff is hidden in Win95/98/XP.

My rule of thumb is, if someone is the kind of Windows user who still opens a DOS box to have command-line control, they could probably be a Linux user. If they're not, then they probably are not ready to take on the higher technical challenge of configuring and troubleshooting a Linux installation.

Nice rule of thumb there. It is a good description.

I disagree.

XP/Vista is not superior to Ubuntu from an informed perspective.

Installing Windows XP requires me to authenticate to a "Higher source", what is higher than my own computer? Apparently Microsoft.

After installing Microsoft's products I have to go "places" to get something updated.

On my Kubuntu I stay on the machine and "Tell" the Internet to do this for me.

If I want to install a decent Organizer, word, and spreadsheet program in Windows I have to have a CD purchased from somewhere else and after its installed, I have to close it manually just to shut off "My" computer.

If I want the same type of software in Kubuntu I open up a console window and install it from the Internet, without opening a browser, asking for permission, or having a disk.

After its done installing I dont have to "Ask for permission to use it", I simply do.

Its light compared to the Windows version and actually closes when I shut off the computer.

I believe XP/Vista is and will continue to be behind Ubuntu.

Microsoft moves too slow.. Ubuntu is alive and kicking and I believe the easiest and most enjoyable experience for a new linux user.

Windows (all of them) is NOT a great OS. And I'm not just talking about the fact that they leave severe security flaws with no solution for months at a time, but that they support drm and actually patch it more quickly than their operating systems essential components! Or how about the fact that only recently did we know our computers have been sending information back to microsoft headquarters? How are we supposed to believe that it only sends back non identifiable information like cd keys when they wont even tell us its doing it in the first place? I could name many reasons why windows is terrible, but its late so I'd rather refute what you've mentioned.

Has my brother (a dummy) ever worried about security flaws? (Once he did - when Spyware invaded his computer - the funn thing is that he still could chat, listen to music and do his homeworks on the machine) DRM? That his bougt copy of Windows has to be activated in order to prevent thiefs/pirates from stealing the software elsewhere? The answer is no.

Hibernation & S-Video Output - In time

Yep, but not in Dapper.

Stable, Easy Wireless Networking - Done, buy one of the many cards supported by the linux kernel. Most of which support all the latest standards (802.11g / WPA2 / etc) The list grows everyday.

If you refer "Stable, Easy Wireless Networking" to as supported by the linux kernel - you left out all the hassle in switching between WLAN hotspots with ipmas activated, the none too often event of having your network interfaces gone down for apparently no reason - or just performing a simple task of adding a default gateway address. NetworkManager is a great step for Dapper - but for instance for me NM does only work about half the time.

Full Fledged XGL - If by full fledged you mean working, we have that. If you meant click a button to turn it on type of functionality, its getting there. At least we have a stable implementation at this point.

That is great. Hope Edgy Eft has some easy way of switching this on and off!

Working Mediacenter Software - Done

Yes but not pre-installed.

WINE version 2.0 - unnecessary

Couldn't disagree more. WINE 2.0 will be one of the most powerful tools to make people switch.

Its microsoft's fault we have dumb users in the first place. Linux is easily usable by those who arent too attached to the windows way of doing things.

But the learning curve is much steeper - and that's what my post is all about in addition to the stuff that Ubuntu just cannot do for the dummy.

I suggest you read this (http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm)

I skimmed it - looks like a great article. I will recommend it in my wiki.

Actually Ubuntu has a much easier method of installing software. You just search for it using Add/Remove Programs or Synaptic, then checkmark what you want installed. You can install games easily and browsing directories has never been a problem. And Looking at HowTo's isn't that necessary unless you want to experiment with new software or use restricted formats.

Yes, I LOVE this approach. Although there is some work left, as even adding the universe etc repos is hard enough for the dummy. And if something just isnt in the list - installing from a downloaded tar will be a HASSLE for the dummy - even after some time. This is though one of the strongest aspects of Ubuntu! Had me blown away first time I saw it.

I agree with this assesment. Windows is a much easier OS and despite what many say can be made secure. What makes me hesitant to recommend Ubuntu to the average consumer is that things are not as easy as Mac or Windows. The Linux distribution I recommend the most ois Foresight Linux or even PCLinuxOS to users who want to learn Linux and have a fast usable setup out of box. Ubuntu needs to start bundling ndiswrapper and the GUI utility for loading those drivers as well as native MP3 and multimedia playback using proprietary formats.

Get Automatix installed by default and we are nearly there.

i got xp to run under vmware, just in case i need it in the future!! lol

So do I. Although it is faster to dual boot.

I don' now wy all the people is always looking for a diference or a kind of superiority with win and ubuntu, i tried to install win at mi pc and get wrong to times with the original software, and find ubuntu at the internet, now a think there is no kind of comparation, is a diferent thing, my pc always keep working and never gona be back at windows, dont realy care about have some extra work to install new stuff,

Happy ubuntu user

Long live Ubuntu!

[Klaidas]

The topic creator is absolutely right.
Heh
Linux is good.
Windows is good
Ballmer is... err... nevermind...

And there's no fking (sorry) need to be 100% Leenooks or 100% weendoz or 100% open source or 100% closed and paid source.

[argie]

Disagree with OP. Installing stuff on Linux is very easy. I don't even have to press next.

Just choose in synaptic, apply. End of story.

As for the dummy business, I'm no human psychology expert, however, I can give anecdotal evidence:
1. My mother who knows nothing (absolutely nothing) about computers could use ubuntu for everything she wanted.
2. My father, who is the kind who is used to windows, really likes Ubuntu. He refuses, however, to use OO:Presentation to make presentations because he has to take them on a USB drive to a windows computer w/o OO and he doesn't trust the ppt support on OO. For some interesting reason, he has no problem saving Word files from OO:Word Processor.

Of course, I had to install and setup Ubuntu. But then, I had to install and setup Windows 98 too.

[akniss]

stable easy wireless networking

In my experience, Ubuntu is ahead of XP in this respect. I don't speak for the masses, obviously, but I have an old HP Desktop (P3 256M) that I wanted to use for a print server at home. The only room in the house with room for a computer and printer has no phone jack, so I cannot run a wired network with my DSL service. So I went and bought a cheap wireless card at Wal-Mart (Blitzz branded, Atheros chipset). After about two months of trying to get the card to work properly under XP Pro, I gave up. It would not stay configured, it would drop connections, and freeze up the computer every hour or so requiring a hard reboot. So don't tell me that XP has stable easy wireless networking. It does for some cards in some systems. So does Dapper. I have had no trouble with wireless on my Dell laptop (Intel 2200) or my home desktop with the atheros card since installing Dapper. Dapper worked with the hardware setup that I have, and XP Pro did not.

Additionally, my wife's Toshiba laptop constantly drops the wireless connection at home when she runs XP. We set it up as a dual boot with ubuntu for recovery purposes if windows ever crashed. I booted into Dapper just to see if it was a hardware or software issue... sure enough, the connection was rock solid Under dapper - stayed connected for over 24 hours straight. She typically can't stay connected for more than 2 hours in XP.

I like XP. I like Ubuntu. Don't tell me that Ubuntu won't be superior to XP until wireless is stable and easy, because in my experience, XP is FAR behind in this respect. It all just depends on what hardware you have, and whether that hardware is well supported by a particular operating system.

[BLTicklemonster]

Remington shot gun is better than pea shooter.

koff koff wanna tell us something new there, Einstein?

[yetanothername]

@Motin,

Windows comes with the "useful software" of for instance being capable of playing a DVD out of the box. And even putting the moviepicture on the TV if I wanted to.
It allows me to download MSN and chat with my friends and lets me shove in the iPod CD to install iTunes and software for my iPod giving me a musical workstation.
I mentioned about a lot of stuff that works out of the box that most linux-fanatics doesn't seem to acknowledge.
Yes but not pre-installed.
Get Automatix installed by default and we are nearly there.

I have focused on the above because you appear to have a specific idea as to who the end user of Dapper is. I am a developer of many years (too many if I think about). I do not want any of the above that I have quoted in my installation of Dapper - none of it.

What you are describing is for the most part an outline of a distro of Ubunto that would be geared towards the end users that you envisage. I think this will go a long way to achieving the goals that you feel should be in the future of Ubuntu. (but if the differences are only at the included package level you do not even have to go the effort of a new distro)

I agree with you on many of your other points, but I will say again that your suggestion that Dapper should do those things 'out of the box' is not what I look for in an OS. (and it is actually against the ethos of Ubuntu, which is to provide a sparse, stable OS - with an easy to use pakage manager to install whatever you prefer)

As soon as you start adding applications to save some users time in installing them, you are wasting some other users time in finding and uninstalling them.

cheers

[aysiu]

Windows cannot play DVDs out of the box. I thought we covered this already?

Dell includes PowerDVD or InterVideo DVD or some other program because Windows alone cannot play commercial DVDs!

[terminatingzero]

Thought this thread was just somebody's idea of a joke when I saw the title.;)

[S1NGH]

Thought this thread was just somebody's idea of a joke when I saw the title.;)
me too... but it looks like it has gone a long way....these are such threads that will always be debated about, because its "some" peoples' personal views of the Operating System.

[Klaidas]

Thought this thread was just somebody's idea of a joke when I saw the title.;)

Umm, why? Is it because we don't like anything that's closed? Oh, wait...

[max.diems]

"New" stuff in vista and its Linux equivalents

Vista: Desktop Search Linux: Beagle
Vista: Aero Glass Linux: XGL (to be included in the ubuntu release < 60 days away)
Vista: Tabbed browsing in IE Linux: Tabbed browsing in Firefox before it was "Firefox"

Everybody please continue list.

[Shay Stephens]

New stuff in vista...me not using it.

New stuff in ubuntu, freedom! Me using an OS with pleasure, reinstalling whenever I feel like it, changing motherboards on a whim, me enjoying freedom again.

[max.diems]

Vista: LUA Linux: root/normal user

[rejser]

Is xgl to be included? Guess I'm going to gentoo full time then......

[.t.]

I wish people would stop assuming that switching for Linux is easiest for the "seasoned computer user". This is in fact false, as a "seasoned computer user" is likely to be seasoned only with Windows, and all the poisonous herbs that come with it. Using Linux for the first time is easiest for one who has never used a Windows PC, as there is less to learn. This is very rare to come across, and this is what bug #1 is designed to fix: more people using Linux as a first OS than Windows. Does the OP understand? It is this seasoning that makes it harder, because humans are lazy, and cannot be arsed to get their heads round it. Now, I am probably being a bit too blunt, but it gets across this way. Perseverance is key: very few things work first time in Windows either. Get to grips with it, and don't knock this fantastic work.

[slimdog360]

I think Ubuntu, or other distros are fine for what most people do on their computers. Most people I see just use their computers for a little bit of word processing or internet use. Ubuntu and other distributions, provides this and much more. If people would spend a few weeks getting their heads around where everything is put compared to Windows they would find this out for themselves. And in the process save a lot of money.

Think about it, firefox claims about 10% of the browser market right, plus about another 10-15% for other browsers. That leaves 75-80% of people using IE. Who in their right mind would use internet explorer. I'll tell you who, people who know nothing about computers because they only use them for a couple of basic things. Things which linux among others provide free of charge. People use windows because its all they hear, all they know.

[Cherry Popper]

Saw this on Ars Technica, Vista audio enhancements revealed (http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060907-7682.html), hopefuly Linux/Ubuntu will implement something like Vista's 'Loudness Equalization' feature.

IMHO, keeping ads volumes the same the movie you're watching is great - it's pretty annoying when you have to lower the volume when an ad comes up and then raise the volume again after the ad cause, you know, IN ADVERTISEMENTS EVERYONE SOUNDS LIKE THEY'RE F'ING SHOUTING, despite the fact you didn't touch the volume controls.

Damn ads.

[max.diems]

I'm not that XGL will be included, but even if it is you can uninstall it
SO Vista- Uninstallable PoS that is Internet Exploder Linux- Can uninstall whatever you want

[PathSpace]

I thought that AIGLX is what would be included in the next Ubuntu (not XGL), because that's what is included in the next x.org...

[BLTicklemonster]

The problem with system restore, is that you aren't back at your usual desktop, you are somewhere else.

This won't help the common person who doesn't know what to do. Perhaps one more prompt at the grub line for "your system, but back to basics" that puts the original ethernet/video/mouse, etc settings back would be the thing to do. If you put people back in their environment, the panic factor is lessened.

Leave their "stuff", just put them back in the driver's seat, and back in control. Yes, if they know what to do with system restore and being in root, let them have at it, but a back to where you started functionality setting would be more user friendly in my opinion. (a log generated and placed on the desktop that showed only the errors would be a help, with a heading telling them where to go for help with it)

Yes, panic factor is in large font, because that's the biggest thing about a new os like linux. People panic when they aren't in an environment they feel comfortable in. Ubuntu needs to go out of it's way to be able to put people back there at a moment's notice.

[BLTicklemonster]

I posted this somewhere else, but I think it applies here, too:

I think Linux's inherent breakability plus the fact that those of you who can help are so far over the average beginner's heads when you try to help add up to disaster for the majority of newcomers. Not your fault that most people don't get it. You have been doing this for a long time, and don't relize that most of the time you need to post a full explanation in every thread you reply to because THESE ARE THE THREADS NEWBS SEE WHEN THEY SEEK SOLUTIONS. Sure you may be replying to a seasoned veteran's problem, but a lot of problems newbs run into could be easily taken care of if the solution were more comprehensive.

Remember, "we can see what you're doing" on a forum. Everyone who looks for a solution sees every post you make. No matter how redundant you are, you are doing the community a favor.

And a dummy button that restores x to it's primitive state with no hassle would be a plus. You know, the first boot, when you get to desktop, those settings ought to be put somewhere where they can not be altered, and a /restore command ought to be used to bring the machine to functionality so people who bork out their machines can get back to the desktop.


These two simple steps would make a major difference in how linux is percieved, trust me. I think the restore (just to get back to the desktop, and put root and permissions back, too, btw) would be a quantum leap towards acceptability. Hard core users will scoff, but they don't have to use it (though I bet at some time they will, and be glad it's there). Oh, and the first thing a person should see when they get to the desktop on first boot is a failsafe restore message telling them that if all else fails, "do this simple thing" such as log in from that black screen with them white letters, and type "sudo /restore" (pathing is not right, I know, but I'm not the propellor head here, you all are), and tell them to write that on the back of their hand or something.

Peace ya'll.

[SoundMachine]

"New" stuff in vista and its Linux equivalents

Vista: Desktop Search Linux: Beagle
Vista: Aero Glass Linux: XGL (to be included in the ubuntu release < 60 days away)
Vista: Tabbed browsing in IE Linux: Tabbed browsing in Firefox before it was "Firefox"

Everybody please continue list.

Vistas security is where Linux will eventually be at the end of 07, TPM regulated encrypting is far beyond anything Linux has.

The rest i couln't care less about. TPM support is in the kernel and IBM are developing user tools so eventually Linux will catch up on that too, i'm counting on it.

[motin]

@Motin,

I have focused on the above because you appear to have a specific idea as to who the end user of Dapper is. I am a developer of many years (too many if I think about). I do not want any of the above that I have quoted in my installation of Dapper - none of it.

What you are describing is for the most part an outline of a distro of Ubunto that would be geared towards the end users that you envisage. I think this will go a long way to achieving the goals that you feel should be in the future of Ubuntu. (but if the differences are only at the included package level you do not even have to go the effort of a new distro)

I agree with you on many of your other points, but I will say again that your suggestion that Dapper should do those things 'out of the box' is not what I look for in an OS. (and it is actually against the ethos of Ubuntu, which is to provide a sparse, stable OS - with an easy to use pakage manager to install whatever you prefer)

As soon as you start adding applications to save some users time in installing them, you are wasting some other users time in finding and uninstalling them.

cheers

That is a great reply! On the first paragraph I want to emphasize that my post is about acceptance for the dummies, not you and me. Also the title of the post is written from a dummy's point of view.

But wouldn't you too accept it if Ubuntu started to offering the dummy-basic things I mentioned, if it led to (as I believe) a greater level of common acceptance -> a widely broadened user-base -> more oppurtunities for Ubuntu to affect the world?

Windows cannot play DVDs out of the box. I thought we covered this already?

Dell includes PowerDVD or InterVideo DVD or some other program because Windows alone cannot play commercial DVDs!

Great point! And also mpeg2 and DivX must be installed seperately (dummy-request no 1 in many cases) when you come to think about it. I apologize and withdraw my point there.

I wish people would stop assuming that switching for Linux is easiest for the "seasoned computer user". This is in fact false, as a "seasoned computer user" is likely to be seasoned only with Windows, and all the poisonous herbs that come with it. Using Linux for the first time is easiest for one who has never used a Windows PC, as there is less to learn. This is very rare to come across, and this is what bug #1 is designed to fix: more people using Linux as a first OS than Windows. Does the OP understand? It is this seasoning that makes it harder, because humans are lazy, and cannot be arsed to get their heads round it. Now, I am probably being a bit too blunt, but it gets across this way. Perseverance is key: very few things work first time in Windows either. Get to grips with it, and don't knock this fantastic work.

I understand you perfectly and appreciate your opinion. I believe that a perfect route for Ubuntu to the common acceptance would be to have Ubuntu as the teaching OS in ground school, where we today instead learn Windows. Still - until the rarity of the matter goes away or my suggestions become a reality, mostly seasoned computer users will switch over to Ubuntu, I believe.

I think Ubuntu, or other distros are fine for what most people do on their computers. Most people I see just use their computers for a little bit of word processing or internet use. Ubuntu and other distributions, provides this and much more. If people would spend a few weeks getting their heads around where everything is put compared to Windows they would find this out for themselves. And in the process save a lot of money.

Think about it, firefox claims about 10% of the browser market right, plus about another 10-15% for other browsers. That leaves 75-80% of people using IE. Who in their right mind would use internet explorer. I'll tell you who, people who know nothing about computers because they only use them for a couple of basic things. Things which linux among others provide free of charge. People use windows because its all they hear, all they know.

Pretty much the basics, yes, but I do not see the point you are trying to make in this discussion?

The problem with system restore, is that you aren't back at your usual desktop, you are somewhere else.

This won't help the common person who doesn't know what to do. Perhaps one more prompt at the grub line for "your system, but back to basics" that puts the original ethernet/video/mouse, etc settings back would be the thing to do. If you put people back in their environment, the panic factor is lessened.

Leave their "stuff", just put them back in the driver's seat, and back in control. Yes, if they know what to do with system restore and being in root, let them have at it, but a back to where you started functionality setting would be more user friendly in my opinion. (a log generated and placed on the desktop that showed only the errors would be a help, with a heading telling them where to go for help with it)

Yes, panic factor is in large font, because that's the biggest thing about a new os like linux. People panic when they aren't in an environment they feel comfortable in. Ubuntu needs to go out of it's way to be able to put people back there at a moment's notice.

&

I posted this somewhere else, but I think it applies here, too:

I think Linux's inherent breakability plus the fact that those of you who can help are so far over the average beginner's heads when you try to help add up to disaster for the majority of newcomers. Not your fault that most people don't get it. You have been doing this for a long time, and don't relize that most of the time you need to post a full explanation in every thread you reply to because THESE ARE THE THREADS NEWBS SEE WHEN THEY SEEK SOLUTIONS. Sure you may be replying to a seasoned veteran's problem, but a lot of problems newbs run into could be easily taken care of if the solution were more comprehensive.

Remember, "we can see what you're doing" on a forum. Everyone who looks for a solution sees every post you make. No matter how redundant you are, you are doing the community a favor.

And a dummy button that restores x to it's primitive state with no hassle would be a plus. You know, the first boot, when you get to desktop, those settings ought to be put somewhere where they can not be altered, and a /restore command ought to be used to bring the machine to functionality so people who bork out their machines can get back to the desktop.

These two simple steps would make a major difference in how linux is percieved, trust me. I think the restore (just to get back to the desktop, and put root and permissions back, too, btw) would be a quantum leap towards acceptability. Hard core users will scoff, but they don't have to use it (though I bet at some time they will, and be glad it's there). Oh, and the first thing a person should see when they get to the desktop on first boot is a failsafe restore message telling them that if all else fails, "do this simple thing" such as log in from that black screen with them white letters, and type "sudo /restore" (pathing is not right, I know, but I'm not the propellor head here, you all are), and tell them to write that on the back of their hand or something.

Peace ya'll.

I love the idea! I am putting it up on my wishlist for Ubuntu. It could just be a command (with optional gui when available) application that kept a pristine copy of all the configuration files (or even better: versioned them automatically with svn or likewise - there we have system restore :) available easily) and upon execution took a backup of the configuration-files (/etc and /home's hidden folders) and then one be one restoring the config file's that had been changed since the pristine copy, with an option to pause and reboot between each restored file (in case the problem has been fixed).

[galileon]

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/
https://svn.cis.upenn.edu/svnroot/unison-contributed-binaries/linux/

ive got a gtk version of this, and i have a folder /homes/ubuntu/time_machine/etc/ which i keep in sync with my /etc....

if i need to sync my system again, i;d simply boot from ubuntu cd, run this gtk-unison thingy and restore my conf to the last known good conf...

(/homes/ is mounted from a different partition)

i suppose it wouldnt be too difficult to implement into a simple Do-This-When-The-Thing-Breaks-Down?

i also keep a mirror of my /usr, /sbin, /bin, /lib and /boot, coz once i overwrote my /usr/ accidentally...and had to reinstal ubuntu from cd...

[.t.]

@galileon: You seem to be backing up everything except var. Why not just include that and make a full tar backup? It wouldn't use very much more space and would be just as, or even more, effective. I don't think this monolithic style is very helpful, and a dynamic system would be much better. However, this is incredibly hard to effectively implement.

@motin: I agree with all the points you made in you previous points, and I definitely wish that a range of systems were taught in schools, rather than the usual XP duo of Windows and Office. I am very glad indeed that my school doesn't teach ICT GCSE and furthers this Microsoft education. Next week, I'm gonna see if they'll let me bring in OpenOffice on a USB stick and use that instead. I doubt it very much.

[galileon]

heya .t., i could do a tar of the /time_machine/ folder, but my real use for it is this:

i tend to install some experimental stuff, like compiz etc, plus like most noobs, i hate having to backup .conf files in /etc/ each time i edited something - which landed me in deep [...beep...] several times - so i found an easier way of ensuring i always have a set of working conf files...

i believe if i were to trash my whole root partition, i could simply reinstall, and get my system to the same state it was before trying out the stuff, because each time i manage to get something exciting to work properly, i perform the mirroring - and its actually very quick when you´re simply synchronising...

[stanz]

:-\"

[jeffc313]

because I cant live without a fancy GUI like XGL/Compiz that comes preinstalled:rolleyes:

[motin]

@motin: I agree with all the points you made in you previous points, and I definitely wish that a range of systems were taught in schools, rather than the usual XP duo of Windows and Office. I am very glad indeed that my school doesn't teach ICT GCSE and furthers this Microsoft education. Next week, I'm gonna see if they'll let me bring in OpenOffice on a USB stick and use that instead. I doubt it very much.

Glad you agree! Come to think of it - why don't we all start sending letters to the minister of education asking about this? It is a key entry point for open source software. And think about what the schools could save on if they'd switch to only educating computing with open source software... as a step to transferring to oss in a large scale to save the billions associated with not having to pay MS license fees...

http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~bcpierce/unison/
https://svn.cis.upenn.edu/svnroot/unison-contributed-binaries/linux/

ive got a gtk version of this, and i have a folder /homes/ubuntu/time_machine/etc/ which i keep in sync with my /etc....

if i need to sync my system again, i;d simply boot from ubuntu cd, run this gtk-unison thingy and restore my conf to the last known good conf...

(/homes/ is mounted from a different partition)

i suppose it wouldnt be too difficult to implement into a simple Do-This-When-The-Thing-Breaks-Down?

i also keep a mirror of my /usr, /sbin, /bin, /lib and /boot, coz once i overwrote my /usr/ accidentally...and had to reinstal ubuntu from cd...

Hey thanks for the tip! I am definitely going to try out this great program!

I wonder why unisoning (as in versioning) /etc and other vital configuration areas aren't installed and set to action automatically in the pre-installed Ubuntu, or at least easily activated in system administration settings. It, together with clear instructions of how to "wind back time" from console mode in case of a broken X server, would be the system restore utility that we are looking for.

[mobilehavoc]

My background is in CompSci (been out of school for about 5 years) and a new Ubuntu convert. I still have XP dualbooting in case I need to go back but I'm loving Ubuntu but I must agree that Linux, Mac OS X will not succeed unless there are drastic changes..

A FEW reasons why..

a) May have changed but all my CS courses were on Wintel machines and focused on Windows programming (Win32/MFC) as well as some other stuff (Perl, CGI, Java, etc). No real focus on Linux/Unix. From speaking to other people, most undergrad programs still don't offer a real indepth course into Linux/Unix so kids are taught Windows - making it their obvious choice for OS

b) Corporations - at least the big ones - use Windows. Being a whiz at Linux or OSX will do **** for you if everyday you go into work you have to use MS Office and Windows among other apps. Until large corporations change over to Linux desktops this will always be an issue. It's that familiarity, going home and having the same experience/knowledge as you have at work.

c) Ease of use/usability - I love the flexibility and command line capabilities of Linux, almost makes you realize how quite a few things are quicker to type than use a mouse! But then again, I have a background in CompSci - I've created programs using Assembler and even machine language! So I have some inkling of what I'm doing and why...most people without the background simply follow How-tos on here blindly not thinking about how certain parts may not be eligible for them or that they could potentially break their system. This leads to all kinds of problems that I've faced myself too. Windows is in that sense full-proof, coupled with System Restore and "Last Known Working Cofig..." nowadays it takes quite some skill to bring it to a point where you have to reinstall it. Also everything pretty much works - you plug something in and if there aren't drivers you double click a file to install them and you're done. No install modules, recompile the kernel, etc.

d) Installed user base - finally the main thing going against Linux obviously is the large installed base of Windows users out there. If you have a Ubuntu problem, more than likely you can't go to your next door neighbor or call up the "geek" in your social network for help. Also I highly doubt you could carry your PC into a Best Buy/Circuit City helpdesk (super lame but for some people it's all they can do) and ask for help with your Linux installation. Until there's better support it will always have issues - Apple is in a better position with its genius bars in stores which gives people some comfort they have somebody to turn to. If you by bad luck only have 1 PC and you screw up your Ubuntu install (i.e. your X server won't start) how in god's name are you supposed to access all the How-tos and excellent guides on the internet????? I don't know of any 1-800 toll free numbers people can call...do you?

In all, Ubuntu is an excellent distro and something I'm thoroughly enjoying but at the same time, I know in my heart that we are still a WAYS away from Linux becoming anything but a tiny blip on the desktop OS radar for the masses.

Just my 2 cents.

[ubuntu-mike022465]

How quickly people forget that XP left people's computers vulnerable after applying SP1. And how long it took for M$ to correct their "oversight". What's the longest Ubuntu, or any other distro, for that matter, has gone before a major or minor patch has been available to fix a problem? This illustrates the advantage of open source over proprietary software. When it come to solving problems, I'll take open source over proprietary any day, and twice on Sunday.

That's just my Canadian 2 cents. :biggrin: =D>

M.

[ubuntu-mike022465]

One other thing people have forgotten or not know about... the absolute deathgrip that M$ has on the the computing industry as a whole. Hardware won't work properly unless windows specific drivers have been written, OEM's are strongarmed to load M$ on their hardware than any other OS. And don't tell me that it doesn't happen, because it does. The lack of regard for healthy competition, on M$ part, has made the IT/IS industry proprietary dependent. How can innovation and proactive thinking happen in such an environment?

M.

Just an additional 0.5 cent... :D

[BLTicklemonster]

Keep tossing us money, Mike! Good points, all of them. Our IT dep heads are always microsoft certified geniuses who don't know diddly about anything other than what microsoft spoon fed them. Which makes it really frustrating to share documents on our network now. whoopee. I can do it, but most of the other people gave up and began emailing each other stuff, and it bogged the mail server down, bigtime! had to snicker about that.


So, XP/Vista/anythingWindows superior to Dapper? I'm sure they want you to believe that. It may do things some easier, but then does that make it better? Tie. And it costs money. How can that be better? Dapper wins hands down. Security problems? Dapper wins hands down. Vista has loads and oodles of eye candy that will bog you down. Dapper wins again. Dapper will let you browse the internet while it sets itself up with very little input. and more and more and more.

Dapper may be the ugly duckling, and I have a love hate relationship with it, but all the points I just gave add up to it being worth the hassle.


(xp/vista of course doesn't leave you stranded wondering wtf as much as ubuntu does, I'll conced that much. So one X in the win column for Moft, whoopee dooo)

[max.diems]

TPM sucks. Its real purpose is to allow M$ to control your computer. It spins this as security.

[3rdalbum]

I've never understood why people complain that there's no complete backup solution included with Ubuntu. I've not broken Ubuntu yet, and I'm running a number of aftermarket things! (been using Ubuntu since Dec 05). I even deleted Gnome while it was still running: It kept running too.

I also don't understand this whole Windows-user thing of "On Linux you have to recompile the kernel all the time". I'm running kQemu and the ATI Proprietry Driver, but these never needed me to recompile the kernel. Who, apart from Mac G5 owners, has ever recompiled a whole kernel for anything other than development or optimisation?

Software installation will quickly become easier than Windows. The repositories don't cover everything, but 3rd party repos are springing up all over the place, and many of them are set up by software developers themselves. Which is easier:

1. Add a line to a GUI program, refresh your packages list, mark the new package for installation (it takes up 700k). If you want to keep up-to-date, just set your Ubuntu to automatically refresh the list each day.

2. Download an installer (5.4 megabytes), double-click it, click "Next" a whole bunch of times, maybe suffer an installer crash, maybe be asked to download and install another installer first, which you have to source from somewhere online. If you want to keep up-to-date, look at the website! (and download a new 5.4 meg installer).

Vista's only real benefit is its security. Vista's security feature was going to be its User Authentication, which works somewhere between Ubuntu and HURD. Unfortunately, it's easy to turn it off and allow all programs administration access without asking.

It's going to be absolutely hilarious to see new Vista users turning off its only security feature, in order to install anti-virus without having to type their password. Bill, PLEASE make it impossible to turn off "mssudo" without using a command line!

[3rdalbum]

Vistas security is where Linux will eventually be at the end of 07,

You're the only person I've ever seen who is actually predicting a regression in Linux security! Or do the Edgy+2 specs include "A graphical front-end to turn off the user privileges system"?

[Anonii]

Vista: Thousands of games, and support to every new game.
Linux: We get... nethack and tuxracer. Then many games in Wine that require freaking tweaking.

[bobbybobington]

The only superiority windows has to ubuntu is its idiot proofing (Not implying that inexperienced users are idiots), and drivers. While Idiot proofing is an inconvenience for power users, in ubuntu it should be easy to disable (unlike windows). Drivers of course is only a matter of time and marketshare.

The only thing that worries me is that ubuntu might lose track of its goal of "linux for human beings" and become "linux for ubuntu users".

[tribaal]

Vista: five versions
Linux: I stopped counting :)

Vista: Heavy pricetag, paid support
Linux: Pricetag? Only if you want it. Support? You get lots free, and can get even more for a price.

No match.

- trib'

[Iandefor]

I love Ubuntu and all that comes with it. But I am a web programmer and seasoned computer user, probably like most of you who read this post. Still - I can't recommend anyone I know to format their hard drive and use Ubuntu as the sole OS on their computers. (Instead I promote people to dual-boot install as described in http://wiki.motin.eu/HowToComfortablySwitchFromWindowsToUbuntu)

XP/Vista is simply superior to Ubuntu, although not in a developer-friendly way (so what?). A Windows computer WORKS - all the time (at least when newly installed), and that is enough for most people. Why do people insist Ubuntu is only half-functional? It WORKS fine here and has done so for a little over a year now.

When Ubuntu fixes basic stuff as working hibernation & S-Video output, stable easy wireless networking, a full-fledged Xgl, working mediacenter software, a pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 (preferably with great software like Picasa bundled in there) and a killer help system that focuses on pre-windows users we will start talking... 1. Wireless really isn't that hard to setup.
2. Xgl is an ugly hack and will be pointless soon. It will never be "fully-fledged" because Xorg 7.1 already has a stable AIGLX module.
3. "Pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 (preferably with great software like Picasa bundled in there)"? This is beyond ridiculous. So you want it to seamlessly run Windows software as well as Linux software OOB, as well as having all the "great" software preinstalled? Do you want it to fly you to the moon as well? And why are you calling having "WINE 2.0" fully preconfigured and preinstalled with all sorts of Windows software "basic"? Would you ask the same of OS X?
4. So the help system should pander to click monkeys? No thanks.


USABILITY FOR THE DUMMIES - will win the world's hearts. It's already plenty usable. Get past the belief that being able to click is equivalent to usable.

What Ubuntu needs though more than all, is feedback from the DUMMIES. https://launchpad.net. That is all our friends that do no more than checking their e-mail, chatting on MSN and/or playing games. When the dummies can use and be satisfied with Ubuntu for extended periods of time, I and probably all of you would honestly recommend your computer-noob friends to start installing Ubuntu on their machines, and that will be the break-through moment for Ubuntu... MSN works fine in GAIM. If you have web-based e-mail or an account running on a server that supports any one of the major e-mail protocols, you'll be able to check your e-mail. Regarding games, talk to game makers. Ubuntu can't magically make them all work.

Windows is a great OS - even if it doesn't fit just you! You gotta be kidding me. Windows is the ONLY operating system I have EVER used that has consistently crashed badly enough, often enough and unfixably enough that the only recourse was to reinstall. It isn''t a "great" operating system if you can't even fix the damn thing when it breaks and it breaks a few times a year.

[Kalinda]

Okay... I think we're all forgetting something...

Windows is not superior to Linux, it's merely all anyone knows. M$ dominates the desktop world and, as such, most computers run Windows. If you don't know squat about computers and you want one, you're going to head over to your nearest Future Shop (if you're Canadian :)) and buy one of those computers already assembled and ready to use, you're not gonna build your own (even if it could be cheaper) because you don't know how. Windows will be on that machine.

I mean, come on, how many of you used Linux before using Windows? Not that many, I'm sure. The only reason people think Windows is easier and better is because it's the leading OS, it's the thing supported by all the companies, it gets all the attention.

One thing that really grinds my gears is that the average person believes Linux is incredibly hard to use and intended only for "l33t computer nerds", but that's total BS. The only use Windows has, imo, is for gaming. That's it. And that's only because gaming companies don't support Linux because. once again, M$ is in control. Same reason for lack of drivers. And those retarted, anti-fair use laws saying that it's illegal to watch DVDs in anything that isn't Windows or Mac.

If we lived in a different world where Linux was the OS everyone used, nobody would complain about it being "too hard" and "not user friendly" because it would be what everyone knows. People go to Linux expecting it to be just like Windows and when it isn't, they proclaim it's too hard for then. If it were reversed, people might complain about Windows being too hard for them because it's not just like Linux.

If I introduced Linux to a computer noob and set everything up for them (as it could be if they bought it pre-installed), then I imagine they'd have no problem using it for the everyday tasks the average person uses a computer for; checking email, surfing the web, doing office stuff, and, maybe, watching DVDs and listening to music.

So, in the end, it's really about everyone's perception of Linux, FUD, and Windows being what everyone knows. Linux COULD be just as "easy" as Windows if "The Man" started supporting it more and hardware was designed for it like it's designed for Windows.

[kairu0]

Speaking of drivers, let's not figure that Ubuntu works out-of-the-box with more hardware than Windows XP. When was the last time that you installed XP and thought solemnly to yourself, "gee, I sure am glad that Windows detected my video card, set it up at a proper color depth and resolution, and saved me the hassle of searching far-and-wide for obscure video drivers"?

[FineE]

Vista feature: DRM built right into the kernel.

GNU/Linux equivalent: Protesters in bio-hazard suits protesting Vista feature.

Vista feature feels like being sealed inside a bio-hazard suit with no air. Ubuntu on the other hand gives me lots of air.

[terranz]

Reading this thread has helped put substance to a thought. Ubuntu is where i do everything and windows is where i reboot to play games (a heavily tweaked windows)

Windows is the new sega :-$

[BLTicklemonster]

Bah, I forgot to add one more thing to the windows win column...

On a computer with a dvdrom and a dvdrw on it:

I bet you can load up xp/vista, install nero, and copy a (no copyrighted) dvd in no time flat.

Try it in ubuntu. Without going to the terminal for anything like oh, maybe mounting a drive, or setting a drive to mount, or whatever, at any given time. Just install ubuntu, then install some dvd burning software and copy a dvd.

I can't do it for the life of me. I'm copying a dvd for my kids because they refuse to watch it in the same room together because they both laugh so hard neither of them can hear what's going on. (Three stooges dvd I made from some avi files) I had to boot to windows and install nero real quick and bam, I'm copying a dvd. I don't give a flying rat's patootie if I did have to reboot, press a bunch of okay and yes buttons. It worked. Period.

Will Ubuntu ever have such functionallity? Yes, probably one day someone will script automatic drive detection/mounting, but from I can figure out so far, there's some reason they don't want it done. Can't remember if it's security related or what, but it seems to me that in a post somewhere they gave a reason why ubuntu won't automatically list all drives, partitions, etc, and have them mounted and ready to use.

Oh, and get this, I need to keep xp where I can run vmware from ubuntu, and I had rebooted earlier, walked away, and danged if it didn't try to boot into k7, not regular kernal. I am pretty sure that's what took vmware out, because it won't work now. What's up with that?

[Cynical]

I can't do it for the life of me. I'm copying a dvd for my kids because they refuse to watch it in the same room together because they both laugh so hard neither of them can hear what's going on. (Three stooges dvd I made from some avi files) I had to boot to windows and install nero real quick and bam, I'm copying a dvd. I don't give a flying rat's patootie if I did have to reboot, press a bunch of okay and yes buttons. It worked. Period.

Interesting. Did you try going to Applications > Add/Remove Programs, searching for 'dvd copy', finding K3B, installing it, and then copying your DVD? Probably not. Or if you happened to know of the application name beforehand, gnomebaker or brasero are good alternatives.

[flibble]

I'll weigh in here because I think my situation is not that unusual and I have a big problem with Ubuntu.

Firstly, I love Ubuntu. I LOVE it. I've used it for years now and I'm quite capable and happy to configure it the way I like it. I like its power and transparency (that's transparency to the user, heh, not the GUI). I've set up postfix, samba, apache etc etc over the years...

But I don't use Ubuntu as my main os for one reason. I'm a postgrad, so I research, think and write for my daily bread. Linux tools for this don't do what I need yet, by a long shot. Openoffice doesn't cut it because it won't do commenting and font rendering is still crap. Yes, I've recompiled freetype to use the bytecode interpreter, which is great for everything other than openoffice but when I write all day, font quality is paramount. For this, unfortunately, I still need the functionality of m$ office. I need a quality bibliography manager. Bibus is coming along, but it's a long way off. I'm one of two people that I know of who are working to get bibus to deal with APA style fully and correctly. It's not possible at the moment. For this I need endnote. There's a few other apps which similarly have oss counterparts, like m$ onenote and the various treepads and clones, but these don't offer the functionality I need nor the interoperability.

So, I love Ubuntu, I'm quite at ease using it, and I use it for everything I need except those few things which I do everyday and which are the most important tasks in my computing life... and hence I don't use Ubuntu as my primary os, much to my frustration and disappointment. And sure as hell not for want of trying :D

It'll be a great day for me when this functionality is available under linux. For now, I'm stuck using XP :( I would use OSX but m$ office runs poorly on OSX because it's emulated through Rosetta, and I'm not convinced apple's business model is any better than m$'s!

[galileon]

when you insert the dvd, an icon appears on your desktop for the dvd

did you right click on it and select copy disc?

(i cant tell, because i dont have a dvd burner, but thats how i copy cds anmyway...)

and what do you mean about mounting? i've absolutely never mounted/unmounted a cdrom in ubuntu!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

are you sure you are using the latest version? it might be possible you have an outdated version (equivalent to XP), but check out the latest - its called Dapper Drake, http://www.ubuntu.com, its free for download, or if you sign up, they will even send you copies for free...

hope this helps...


Bah, I forgot to add one more thing to the windows win column...

On a computer with a dvdrom and a dvdrw on it:

I bet you can load up xp/vista, install nero, and copy a (no copyrighted) dvd in no time flat.

Try it in ubuntu. Without going to the terminal for anything like oh, maybe mounting a drive, or setting a drive to mount, or whatever, at any given time. Just install ubuntu, then install some dvd burning software and copy a dvd.

I can't do it for the life of me. I'm copying a dvd for my kids because they refuse to watch it in the same room together because they both laugh so hard neither of them can hear what's going on. (Three stooges dvd I made from some avi files) I had to boot to windows and install nero real quick and bam, I'm copying a dvd. I don't give a flying rat's patootie if I did have to reboot, press a bunch of okay and yes buttons. It worked. Period.

Will Ubuntu ever have such functionallity? Yes, probably one day someone will script automatic drive detection/mounting, but from I can figure out so far, there's some reason they don't want it done. Can't remember if it's security related or what, but it seems to me that in a post somewhere they gave a reason why ubuntu won't automatically list all drives, partitions, etc, and have them mounted and ready to use.

Oh, and get this, I need to keep xp where I can run vmware from ubuntu, and I had rebooted earlier, walked away, and danged if it didn't try to boot into k7, not regular kernal. I am pretty sure that's what took vmware out, because it won't work now. What's up with that?

[galileon]

Oh, and get this, I need to keep xp where I can run vmware from ubuntu, and I had rebooted earlier, walked away, and danged if it didn't try to boot into k7, not regular kernal. I am pretty sure that's what took vmware out, because it won't work now. What's up with that?




for now, i will simply tell you tell you this: you have installed a new kernel, and it has been automatically set to be your default kernel at reboot. the vmmon module for vmware has been compiled/selected for the old kernel, so you need to run

sudo vmware-config.pl

in a terminal.

please create a new thread for this, if you have any further problems

as a side note, i'll ask you to try something: take the ntoskrnl.exe file from your windows XP (thats your kernel), and the c:\windows\system32\ (these are your drivers, same as /lib/modules/ in linux) and use these two to "upgrade" your installation of windoze 98.........

in linux, this is simply a matter of copying the files and adding three lines to /boot/grub/menu.lst......

can it be easily done with windows? can it be done with a lot of hard work? can it be done AT ALL????

in linux, its called a kernel upgrade, and in ubuntu, its two clicks away...

[benplaut]

i recompiled windows a few days ago... running ALOT better

[galileon]

lmao, nice one!!

[BLTicklemonster]

for now, i will simply tell you tell you this: you have installed a new kernel, and it has been automatically set to be your default kernel at reboot. the vmmon module for vmware has been compiled/selected for the old kernel, so you need to run



in a terminal.

please create a new thread for this, if you have any further problems

as a side note, i'll ask you to try something: take the ntoskrnl.exe file from your windows XP (thats your kernel), and the c:\windows\system32\ (these are your drivers, same as /lib/modules/ in linux) and use these two to "upgrade" your installation of windoze 98.........

in linux, this is simply a matter of copying the files and adding three lines to /boot/grub/menu.lst......

can it be easily done with windows? can it be done with a lot of hard work? can it be done AT ALL????

in linux, its called a kernel upgrade, and in ubuntu, its two clicks away...
I put k7 on immediately after ubuntu was installed, but it never worked right. In that k7 is there is not the issue. The issue is vmware broke in the normal kernel because k7 started to load.
But thanks for being swift enough to pick up on that whole new kernel thing. you're really bright. what was cool. :cool:


*edit: just rebooted to try that out and finally figured out what that noise was in the tom cruise movie war of the worlds when the alien things were about to fire their weapons. They were booting ubuntu. My audio on windows was a bit quieter than in ubuntu, so I had the speakers turned up. When I just booted, "whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooom ding ding ding". Anyway, that worked, thanks. :cool:

[BLTicklemonster]

Interesting. Did you try going to Applications > Add/Remove Programs, searching for 'dvd copy', finding K3B, installing it, and then copying your DVD? Probably not. Or if you happened to know of the application name beforehand, gnomebaker or brasero are good alternatives.

Koff koff. yep, k3g dvd:rip, gnomebaker, you name it. It won't do any good if the dvds aren't mounted, listed, recognized, etc. Did you even read my post?

perhaps I was short. I have never had them work ever. New install of ubuntu dapper, upgrades galore, etc. regardless of if I have attempted to use k7 or regular kernels, one of them is always out in the cold. they are master slave, not cable select.

[insane_alien]

BLT, i just stuck in a DVD and a DVD+R both have appeared as icons on my desktop without me touching anything but the buttons to retract to trays.
if i right click on the DVD i have the option to copy the disk. does that look oh so hard to do???

[BLTicklemonster]

Try burning. I, too am 1337 and can drop a dvd in the tray and with my awesome powers of superuberness make icons appear on my desktop!!

But on a fresh install, k3b, gnomebaker, dvdshrink for linux, dvdshrink in wine, you name it, if I try to burn, I can't. Invariably one of the drives will geek out on me.

But I'm glad you get those icons! That tells me ubuntu rocks.

[insane_alien]

well the interesting thing is that after i went to get a cup of tea i had a perfect copy of the DVD. ***faints from the shock***

[p.i.m.p]

Maybe Ubuntu (Linux) developers should come up with "Dumbuntu." This will take care of all the xtreme noobs. Straight out of the box all the normal linux stuff works like windows but locked down with some kind of config at first-boot that lets people pick their user level. Once people get more saavy they can upgrade their user level or something which gives them more access to console and advanced stuff etc. Many people really only need email, web, word-processing, able to print, download photos from their camera type stuff. I have no idea if something like this would work but what the hell do I know. I'm a relative noob myself but have crafted a SUPER-DAPPER!!!

lol funny but guy has a point.. not sure about the name though :P but seriously couldnt the ubuntu ppl build a version for newbies that would have a wizard startup on boot and offer to install codecs and stuff? something like automatix.. im sure that would win over a lot of people to the windows camp.. and a quick walkthrough that would show the user how to accomplish various tasks, with a link that would point to a resource exclusively for ppl migrating from windows that would tell them the corresponding way to do common tasks in linux? my dapper install was ahead of my windows install in vaious respects.. just an example - i somehow could never get support for hibernation in windows xp.. it worked for me in dapper though :d

[3rdalbum]

Master slave? Cable select? PCs use too much jargon; they're not ready for the desktop.

In relation to the DVD-burning problems, try running K3B as root. Also, if you have two drives in your computer, turn off DMA on the one that you're not using to burn. (don't ask me how to do that! I don't remember.)

but seriously couldnt the ubuntu ppl build a version for newbies that would have a wizard startup on boot and offer to install codecs and stuff? something like automatix.. im sure that would win over a lot of people to the windows camp..

Well, I've heard that they will release a "multimedia edition" some time, and on the ordinary edition they will have a kind of Automatix built-in.

But I'll let a cat out of the bag. If I can figure out how to extract the SquashFS filesystem from the Ubuntu Desktop CD, make modifications and then put it back together and have it bootable, I will build a distribution which includes easy obtaining of codecs. (and easy use of a whole heap of other things)

[BLTicklemonster]

Master slave? Cable select? PCs use too much jargon; they're not ready for the desktop.

In relation to the DVD-burning problems, try running K3B as root. Also, if you have two drives in your computer, turn off DMA on the one that you're not using to burn. (don't ask me how to do that! I don't remember.)



Well, I've heard that they will release a "multimedia edition" some time, and on the ordinary edition they will have a kind of Automatix built-in.

But I'll let a cat out of the bag. If I can figure out how to extract the SquashFS filesystem from the Ubuntu Desktop CD, make modifications and then put it back together and have it bootable, I will build a distribution which includes easy obtaining of codecs. (and easy use of a whole heap of other things)

THANKS! I'll try that.

[darrenm]

Lets go through a few differences in the ways I have to set up my PC with Ubuntu and Windows XP.

Installing my Epson C20UX USB host-based GDI printer.
Windows XP: Once I have installed the drivers for my network card I have to go to www.epson.co.uk and find the drivers for the C20UX. Once downloaded I run the installer which hangs at the spot where it says to plug the USB cable in now but I have always had it plugged in so I have to remove it from device manager, scan for hardware changes and then it picks it up.

Ubuntu: Go to System>Administration>Printing, click on Add Printer, click forward, forward, apply.

The same goes for most things. Almost everything that is needed is in the repos and is installable from Add\Remove in the Applications menu. How anyone can say Windows is easier than that I don't know.

Oh and Edgy ACPI support with the fast shutdown is fantastic. S3 works better than in windows. AIGLX is being rolled in Edgy with xorg 7.1.1.

3 things still to accomplish:

1. Decent video editor
2. All round GUI support of Wifi with WPA (almost there) and no probs.
3. Erm forgot the 3rd one. Must not have been important.

Then who cares if people cant run Windows games. Consoles will take over as the home game machine soon anyway.

[K.Mandla]

A Windows computer WORKS - all the time (at least when newly installed), and that is enough for most people.
http://img239.imageshack.us/img239/5940/yodanewbiesmyy7.jpg

[motin]

So, XP/Vista/anythingWindows superior to Dapper? I'm sure they want you to believe that. It may do things some easier, but then does that make it better? Tie. And it costs money. How can that be better? Dapper wins hands down. Security problems? Dapper wins hands down. Vista has loads and oodles of eye candy that will bog you down. Dapper wins again. Dapper will let you browse the internet while it sets itself up with very little input. and more and more and more.

1. Ubuntu does not cost money - but time and efforts at more points than XP (for the dummy) - it is all about how much your time is worth.
2. Vista has loads and oodles of eye candy - Showed it to my brother (a role model dummy despite using computers everyday - for music, games, chatting and movies), and he was amazed and wondered if I could install Vista on his computer too. Vista wins again...
3. Dapper's installerconcept is superior to Windows' - no question! (Even though Vista's is just as non-demanding for input)

Dapper may be the ugly duckling, and I have a love hate relationship with it, but all the points I just gave add up to it being worth the hassle.

(xp/vista of course doesn't leave you stranded wondering wtf as much as ubuntu does, I'll conced that much. So one X in the win column for Moft, whoopee dooo)

Dapper is superior to at XP/Vista - for us. For the dummies it is the opposite, since a dummy that gets stranded quickly will go back to Windows - the operating system that works for the dummy.

I've never understood why people complain that there's no complete backup solution included with Ubuntu. I've not broken Ubuntu yet, and I'm running a number of aftermarket things! (been using Ubuntu since Dec 05). I even deleted Gnome while it was still running: It kept running too.

It is not mainly the OS one wants to backup - it can be reinstalled - but the hacks and configuration that made your computer work as good as possible to your taste, your documents, what packages you have installed etc - hardware does brake.

I also don't understand this whole Windows-user thing of "On Linux you have to recompile the kernel all the time". I'm running kQemu and the ATI Proprietry Driver, but these never needed me to recompile the kernel. Who, apart from Mac G5 owners, has ever recompiled a whole kernel for anything other than development or optimisation?

So true - At least with Ubuntu there should be no need for recompilation. The people who thinks so probally still wear the same ties as they did in the 80's as well.

Software installation will quickly become easier than Windows. The repositories don't cover everything, but 3rd party repos are springing up all over the place, and many of them are set up by software developers themselves. Which is easier:

1. Add a line to a GUI program, refresh your packages list, mark the new package for installation (it takes up 700k). If you want to keep up-to-date, just set your Ubuntu to automatically refresh the list each day.

2. Download an installer (5.4 megabytes), double-click it, click "Next" a whole bunch of times, maybe suffer an installer crash, maybe be asked to download and install another installer first, which you have to source from somewhere online. If you want to keep up-to-date, look at the website! (and download a new 5.4 meg installer).

Dapper's of course! It is even dummyproof. It's brilliant! Big win here against XP/Vista.

Vista's only real benefit is its security. Vista's security feature was going to be its User Authentication, which works somewhere between Ubuntu and HURD. Unfortunately, it's easy to turn it off and allow all programs administration access without asking.

I think this only proves my point - that dummies rather not care about security to gain the time spent clicking away those annoying boxes (and they are annoying!)

It's going to be absolutely hilarious to see new Vista users turning off its only security feature, in order to install anti-virus without having to type their password. Bill, PLEASE make it impossible to turn off "mssudo" without using a command line!

I will roll on the floor, laughing - when the tide comes. :)

The only superiority windows has to ubuntu is its idiot proofing (Not implying that inexperienced users are idiots), and drivers. While Idiot proofing is an inconvenience for power users, in ubuntu it should be easy to disable (unlike windows). Drivers of course is only a matter of time and marketshare.

The only thing that worries me is that ubuntu might lose track of its goal of "linux for human beings" and become "linux for ubuntu users".

How do you mean? It is an interesting reflection. But isn't the whole point of Ubuntu that it should be accesible by everyone? Not only those with a decent to expert understanding of a computer system - which is often needed when you get stranded - even when asking in forums and IRC!

Why do people insist Ubuntu is only half-functional? It WORKS fine here and has done so for a little over a year now.

I guess it is a lot because of the sometimes flaky hardware-support. Hibernation, the smart-card-reader, S-Video out are examples of what doesn't work on my laptop in Ubuntu. Also - not being able to run for instance iTunes is yet another reason - if you ask a dummy (it doesn't matter that amarok has iTunes-support...).

1. Wireless really isn't that hard to setup.
2. Xgl is an ugly hack and will be pointless soon. It will never be "fully-fledged" because Xorg 7.1 already has a stable AIGLX module.
3. "Pre-installed and configured WINE version 2.0 (preferably with great software like Picasa bundled in there)"? This is beyond ridiculous. So you want it to seamlessly run Windows software as well as Linux software OOB, as well as having all the "great" software preinstalled? Do you want it to fly you to the moon as well? And why are you calling having "WINE 2.0" fully preconfigured and preinstalled with all sorts of Windows software "basic"? Would you ask the same of OS X?
4. So the help system should pander to click monkeys? No thanks.

1. Nope, it is even easier than in windows nowadays, lots of credit to NetworkManager! And it is really stable. Although to get out on the net after a WLAN switch I almost everytime need to run a combination of if up, if down and ipmasq - no pings to google will go through otherwise... This sort of requirements is what makes Ubuntu potentially superdifficult to get working on the network-department.
2. Yes, but this thread is about Dapper, not Eft! (Looking forward to Eft :) ...)
3. Why not have a good-working WINE pre-installed - so that dummies can continue using their iTunes, MS Office and games - software they already payed for and know?
4. Explain...?

It's already plenty usable. Get past the belief that being able to click is equivalent to usable.

For a dummy it isn't a belief - it's a fact!

https://launchpad.net. MSN works fine in GAIM. If you have web-based e-mail or an account running on a server that supports any one of the major e-mail protocols, you'll be able to check your e-mail. Regarding games, talk to game makers. Ubuntu can't magically make them all work.

1. Gaim does not have video or audio support and cannot wiggle the windows!! (Dummy-important! Market-interest...) [I will stir a lot of momentum with this comment I believe...]
2. E-mail-support is great, yes.
3. Ubuntu with a pre-installed WINE 2.0 would have support for most windows games

You gotta be kidding me. Windows is the ONLY operating system I have EVER used that has consistently crashed badly enough, often enough and unfixably enough that the only recourse was to reinstall. It isn''t a "great" operating system if you can't even fix the damn thing when it breaks and it breaks a few times a year.

But didn't you just insert the disc, reinstalled it and it was working again - didn't even had your /home folder erased because you didn't make aspecial partition for it? And - had you'd been power-using windows? Windows sucks for power-users - use Ubuntu instead.

Okay... I think we're all forgetting something...

Windows is not superior to Linux, it's merely all anyone knows. M$ dominates the desktop world and, as such, most computers run Windows. If you don't know squat about computers and you want one, you're going to head over to your nearest Future Shop (if you're Canadian :)) and buy one of those computers already assembled and ready to use, you're not gonna build your own (even if it could be cheaper) because you don't know how. Windows will be on that machine.

I mean, come on, how many of you used Linux before using Windows? Not that many, I'm sure. The only reason people think Windows is easier and better is because it's the leading OS, it's the thing supported by all the companies, it gets all the attention.

One thing that really grinds my gears is that the average person believes Linux is incredibly hard to use and intended only for "l33t computer nerds", but that's total BS. The only use Windows has, imo, is for gaming. That's it. And that's only because gaming companies don't support Linux because. once again, M$ is in control. Same reason for lack of drivers. And those retarted, anti-fair use laws saying that it's illegal to watch DVDs in anything that isn't Windows or Mac.

If we lived in a different world where Linux was the OS everyone used, nobody would complain about it being "too hard" and "not user friendly" because it would be what everyone knows. People go to Linux expecting it to be just like Windows and when it isn't, they proclaim it's too hard for then. If it were reversed, people might complain about Windows being too hard for them because it's not just like Linux.

If I introduced Linux to a computer noob and set everything up for them (as it could be if they bought it pre-installed), then I imagine they'd have no problem using it for the everyday tasks the average person uses a computer for; checking email, surfing the web, doing office stuff, and, maybe, watching DVDs and listening to music.

So, in the end, it's really about everyone's perception of Linux, FUD, and Windows being what everyone knows. Linux COULD be just as "easy" as Windows if "The Man" started supporting it more and hardware was designed for it like it's designed for Windows.

I think we made this very clear by now, but thanks anyway for sharing your 5 cents.

Speaking of drivers, let's not figure that Ubuntu works out-of-the-box with more hardware than Windows XP. When was the last time that you installed XP and thought solemnly to yourself, "gee, I sure am glad that Windows detected my video card, set it up at a proper color depth and resolution, and saved me the hassle of searching far-and-wide for obscure video drivers"?

It is just sooo true. Thumbs up man! Still - in windows I had support for S-Video... which was worth the extra hassle, and in Ubuntu - trying to get me S-Video support had X going down many many times...

Bah, I forgot to add one more thing to the windows win column...

On a computer with a dvdrom and a dvdrw on it:

I bet you can load up xp/vista, install nero, and copy a (no copyrighted) dvd in no time flat.

Try it in ubuntu. Without going to the terminal for anything like oh, maybe mounting a drive, or setting a drive to mount, or whatever, at any given time. Just install ubuntu, then install some dvd burning software and copy a dvd.

I can't do it for the life of me. I'm copying a dvd for my kids because they refuse to watch it in the same room together because they both laugh so hard neither of them can hear what's going on. (Three stooges dvd I made from some avi files) I had to boot to windows and install nero real quick and bam, I'm copying a dvd. I don't give a flying rat's patootie if I did have to reboot, press a bunch of okay and yes buttons. It worked. Period.

Will Ubuntu ever have such functionallity? Yes, probably one day someone will script automatic drive detection/mounting, but from I can figure out so far, there's some reason they don't want it done. Can't remember if it's security related or what, but it seems to me that in a post somewhere they gave a reason why ubuntu won't automatically list all drives, partitions, etc, and have them mounted and ready to use.

Oh, and get this, I need to keep xp where I can run vmware from ubuntu, and I had rebooted earlier, walked away, and danged if it didn't try to boot into k7, not regular kernal. I am pretty sure that's what took vmware out, because it won't work now. What's up with that?

The many hardwarequirks of Ubuntu make it dummy-unfriendly. Also - Nero costs a lot of money as well!

I'll weigh in here because I think my situation is not that unusual and I have a big problem with Ubuntu.

Firstly, I love Ubuntu. I LOVE it. I've used it for years now and I'm quite capable and happy to configure it the way I like it. I like its power and transparency (that's transparency to the user, heh, not the GUI). I've set up postfix, samba, apache etc etc over the years...

But I don't use Ubuntu as my main os for one reason. I'm a postgrad, so I research, think and write for my daily bread. Linux tools for this don't do what I need yet, by a long shot. Openoffice doesn't cut it because it won't do commenting and font rendering is still crap. Yes, I've recompiled freetype to use the bytecode interpreter, which is great for everything other than openoffice but when I write all day, font quality is paramount. For this, unfortunately, I still need the functionality of m$ office. I need a quality bibliography manager. Bibus is coming along, but it's a long way off. I'm one of two people that I know of who are working to get bibus to deal with APA style fully and correctly. It's not possible at the moment. For this I need endnote. There's a few other apps which similarly have oss counterparts, like m$ onenote and the various treepads and clones, but these don't offer the functionality I need nor the interoperability.

So, I love Ubuntu, I'm quite at ease using it, and I use it for everything I need except those few things which I do everyday and which are the most important tasks in my computing life... and hence I don't use Ubuntu as my primary os, much to my frustration and disappointment. And sure as hell not for want of trying :D

It'll be a great day for me when this functionality is available under linux. For now, I'm stuck using XP :( I would use OSX but m$ office runs poorly on OSX because it's emulated through Rosetta, and I'm not convinced apple's business model is any better than m$'s!

MS Office 2000 runs in Ubuntu with the current Wine-version (and has been doing so for a while). A little step further...

i recompiled windows a few days ago... running ALOT better

??

lol funny but guy has a point.. not sure about the name though :P but seriously couldnt the ubuntu ppl build a version for newbies that would have a wizard startup on boot and offer to install codecs and stuff? something like automatix.. im sure that would win over a lot of people to the windows camp.. and a quick walkthrough that would show the user how to accomplish various tasks, with a link that would point to a resource exclusively for ppl migrating from windows that would tell them the corresponding way to do common tasks in linux? my dapper install was ahead of my windows install in vaious respects.. just an example - i somehow could never get support for hibernation in windows xp.. it worked for me in dapper though :d

Automatix pre-installed and links to switched from Windows-resources is things I really'd like to see in Ubuntu soon! (Btw - Hibernation for me was the other way around)

Well, I've heard that they will release a "multimedia edition" some time, and on the ordinary edition they will have a kind of Automatix built-in.

Awesome! Where did you get that information?

Lets go through a few differences in the ways I have to set up my PC with Ubuntu and Windows XP.

Installing my Epson C20UX USB host-based GDI printer.
Windows XP: Once I have installed the drivers for my network card I have to go to www.epson.co.uk and find the drivers for the C20UX. Once downloaded I run the installer which hangs at the spot where it says to plug the USB cable in now but I have always had it plugged in so I have to remove it from device manager, scan for hardware changes and then it picks it up.

Ubuntu: Go to System>Administration>Printing, click on Add Printer, click forward, forward, apply.

The same goes for most things. Almost everything that is needed is in the repos and is installable from Add\Remove in the Applications menu. How anyone can say Windows is easier than that I don't know.

Oh and Edgy ACPI support with the fast shutdown is fantastic. S3 works better than in windows. AIGLX is being rolled in Edgy with xorg 7.1.1.

3 things still to accomplish:

1. Decent video editor
2. All round GUI support of Wifi with WPA (almost there) and no probs.
3. Erm forgot the 3rd one. Must not have been important.

Then who cares if people cant run Windows games. Consoles will take over as the home game machine soon anyway.

Dapper is superior to XP as long as the drivers are supported - but Vista ties or wins over Dapper in the matter of installing new hardware.

1. Would be nice - but not crucial. Kino is enough for the basic needs, isn't it?
2. NetworkManager doesn't do this?
3. Sure must have been!

Computer-gaming will be enjoyed even outside consoles for a long time yet, I believe.

[Guillaumeb]

I would disagree with this topic. i'm not a pro Linux boy nor do I enter the chikldish antiMS movement.

I've been using Windows Xp for several years. Actually I am a Microsoft MVP so you can imagine I have tested a lot for them.

I recently switched to Ubuntu mainly bacause I was tired of Xp. I m currently saving to get a MacBook Pro.

Windows DOES NOT just work. A clean install of Windows is far behind a clean install of Ubuntu. With Ubuntu everything worked! Some services are desactivated by default under XP (evne Pro) like the wifi wizard. Do you think the newbie will think to command services.MSC to activate the feature?

I have a laptop, the default version of XP was on a special CD with all the necessary drivers. however I have received various versions of XP and I used to use one of those, XP Pro SP2 in English (i'm French)...well I had to manually download all the drivers to make it work on my laptop... Something I never had to do with ubuntu...because, once again, it just works with ubuntu

Besides, how many registry keys do you need to tweak to get a real smart OS huh?

That proprietary softwares are eaten up by Microsoft to focus there development around Windows does not mean Windows itself is better.

And yeh between virus, hackers, pop-ups, spyware.... the noobs is most likely to have trouble in the first week of his "XPerience"

[Cynical]

Koff koff. yep, k3g dvd:rip, gnomebaker, you name it. It won't do any good if the dvds aren't mounted, listed, recognized, etc. Did you even read my post?

Yes I read your post. DVD's are mounted, listed, recognized, etc for everyone but you it seems.

[motin]

I would disagree with this topic. i'm not a pro Linux boy nor do I enter the chikldish antiMS movement.

I've been using Windows Xp for several years. Actually I am a Microsoft MVP so you can imagine I have tested a lot for them.

I recently switched to Ubuntu mainly bacause I was tired of Xp. I m currently saving to get a MacBook Pro.

Windows DOES NOT just work. A clean install of Windows is far behind a clean install of Ubuntu. With Ubuntu everything worked! Some services are desactivated by default under XP (evne Pro) like the wifi wizard. Do you think the newbie will think to command services.MSC to activate the feature?

I have a laptop, the default version of XP was on a special CD with all the necessary drivers. however I have received various versions of XP and I used to use one of those, XP Pro SP2 in English (i'm French)...well I had to manually download all the drivers to make it work on my laptop... Something I never had to do with ubuntu...because, once again, it just works with ubuntu

Besides, how many registry keys do you need to tweak to get a real smart OS huh?

That proprietary softwares are eaten up by Microsoft to focus there development around Windows does not mean Windows itself is better.

And yeh between virus, hackers, pop-ups, spyware.... the noobs is most likely to have trouble in the first week of his "XPerience"

As you may recognize, I am the OP of this thread. Something this thread has had me realize - very vital to my now changed opinion of this threads subject - is that the reason that I have had the opinion of XP "always works" is mainly because of the common OEM pre-configured environments that you run into, where manufacturers already has included all necessary drivers, DVD-play software, probably MS Works or MS Office (and btw on Dell a whole ******** of spyquake-alike software that after 30 days or so terrorises your everyday computing with popups that are deliberately too hard to disable for a dummy!!! Sorry - just needed to let the pressure out a bit...).
I too has worked as a computer technician in an MS environment - and used to spend days on getting all necessary drivers needed to create new images (because the OEM cd cannot be used due to silly restrictions limitations and product activation)!

The only reason XP is good for the dummy is because it comes preconfigured with additional software! If I would put a dummy with a formatted hard drive and an XP/Vista cd I believe he would have a lot more problems - and for a long time - then he would with an Ubuntu-CD! Of course Dapper would beat XP/Vista (at least on the home desktop) by leaps if manufacturers sold tested and already tweaked configurations so that everything worked out-of-the-box!

Two vital steps I now see in having Dapper kicking Windows off the shelves for everyone's benefit is:
- Teaching Ubuntu in schools at least in parallell to Default OS systems
- Making it dead-drop easy to make great OEM-installations! (XP/Vista has great tools for this!)

Along with all secondary aspects of improving the various parts of the OS.

About my first point: I just read about a magnificient success Richard Stallman recently had in India - and it makes me warm inside :) :

"In August 2006 at his meetings with the goverment of the Indian State of Kerala, he persuaded officials to discard proprietary software, such as Microsoft, at state-run schools. This has resulted in a landmark decision to switch all school computers in 12,500 high schools from Windows to a free software operating system." // http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman

Transscript of the speech: http://www.sweden.fsfeurope.org/projects/gplv3/bangalore-rms-transcript

[galileon]

i think the ubuntu-alternate version has tools for oems, check it out!

[darrenm]

- Making it dead-drop easy to make great OEM-installations! (XP/Vista has great tools for this!)

The OPK and sysprep aren't easy or great tools. They are difficult to use, buggy and don't get fixed by Microsoft for months. OEM's are just forced to use them.

But I do agree, getting Ubuntu in the OEM mainstream is the key to its future success. :)

[mssever]

Maybe Ubuntu (Linux) developers should come up with "Dumbuntu." This will take care of all the xtreme noobs. Straight out of the box all the normal linux stuff works like windows but locked down with some kind of config at first-boot that lets people pick their user level. Once people get more saavy they can upgrade their user level or something which gives them more access to console and advanced stuff etc. Many people really only need email, web, word-processing, able to print, download photos from their camera type stuff. I have no idea if something like this would work but what the hell do I know. I'm a relative noob myself but have crafted a SUPER-DAPPER!!!

This already exists. It's called Ubuntu. The default out-of-the-box install includes everything necessary to perform the tasks you mentioned.

[BLTicklemonster]

Yes I read your post. DVD's are mounted, listed, recognized, etc for everyone but you it seems.

There's a lot of posts out there that beg to differ.

[insane_alien]

There's a lot of posts out there that beg to differ.

yes there is probably maybe 100 at most. when do you hear about the tens of thousands(millions even) that are successfully mounted, listed and recognized? even by complete newbies that have never touched linux in their lives?

people only complain when stuff doesn't work right so in a forum that helps people you only really see everything that can go wrong but none that can go right.

[motin]

yes there is probably maybe 100 at most. when do you hear about the tens of thousands(millions even) that are successfully mounted, listed and recognized? even by complete newbies that have never touched linux in their lives?

people only complain when stuff doesn't work right so in a forum that helps people you only really see everything that can go wrong but none that can go right.

Why are you using this threads space do discuss mostly irrelevant matters to the subject? Please start a new thread.

[motin]

Feel free to contribute to http://wiki.motin.eu/BestOfAllOssOnLinux - a far from finished wiki-page that has as object to clear things out in this subject.

[motin]

I posted this post a while ago: XP/Vista is superior to Dapper - http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=253098 and eventually I switched opinion completely. My starting point was that even though Dapper is the ultimate OS for me and lots of power-users, itis no match against XP/Vista for all average users (the dummies :) ) Interesting reading I say...

[motin]

I posted this post a while ago: XP/Vista is superior to Dapper - http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=253098 My starting point was that even though Dapper is the ultimate OS for me and lots of power-users, it is no match against XP/Vista for all average users (the dummies :) )) and eventually I switched opinion completely. Interesting reading I say...

[BLTicklemonster]

Sorry! I was just making a related point, and it deviated to this. No biggie, I just boot to xp to burn dvds, now.

BUT, this was a nice illustration of one thing V/XP can claim as a betterness, which bugs me because I want to be M'soft free.

And I guess it's not really a problem if only a few people experience it, so my bad for bringing it up in the first place. :wink:

[argie]

@SoundMachine:
Vistas security is where Linux will eventually be at the end of 07, TPM regulated encrypting is far beyond anything Linux has.

The rest i couln't care less about. TPM support is in the kernel and IBM are developing user tools so eventually Linux will catch up on that too, i'm counting on it.

I've always wondered. Doesn't the repository system preclude the possibility of tampering with programs, meaning the TPM thing doesn't help for the user? However I can see how that bit about encrypting everything on the drive can be useful for some people. It's useless security for me, or for anyone I know. Yeah, pointless security is what it looks like. Besides, it should be something you choose to have, not necessarily must have.

Of course DRM is a problem, it's just annoying, and gets in the way of normal honest people.

#Note: I only know Wikipedia + assorted posts worth of information on this.

[3rdalbum]

But what use is TPM support when no computers come with them? (apart from Macs)

99.99% of PCs these days still use a BIOS, rather than something like EFI. It could be 20 years until any PC actually comes with a TPM chip!

[kragen]

I wish people would stop making these threads trying to convince yourself and others that linux is so vastly superior.

I'm just as excited as the next linux freak about XGL, Beagle and all the other cool "cutting edge" projects going on at the moment, but ultimately the things that decide whether or not Linux is actualy useable as an OS is the following:

Windows Has:
Hardware support for all of my hardware
The ability to run windows games and programs that at the moment have no viable linux alternative.

It's as simple as that, so please please please stop going on about how fantasicly superior linux is, and instead help fix the problems that force a huge number of would be linux users to windows.

[motin]

I wish people would stop making these threads trying to convince yourself and others that linux is so vastly superior.

I'm just as excited as the next linux freak about XGL, Beagle and all the other cool "cutting edge" projects going on at the moment, but ultimately the things that decide whether or not Linux is actualy useable as an OS is the following:

Windows Has:
Hardware support for all of my hardware
The ability to run windows games and programs that at the moment have no viable linux alternative.

It's as simple as that, so please please please stop going on about how fantasicly superior linux is, and instead help fix the problems that force a huge number of would be linux users to windows.

Rational point - I agree. Although a slight correction: Windows does not at all have support for all your hardware, but the manufacturers has made drivers that run with Windows. The difference is slight - but looking at the OS isolated - with all that comes with it (not being 3rdparty) - there is no question of which OS would be superior for the end user. It is all about letting manufactuers etc know how stable and friendly the GNU/Linux OS is, and all these threads that compare them help in that matter.

[3rdalbum]

There's a lot of posts out there that beg to differ.

If you've got two optical drives in your computer, try toggling the DMA on your non-DVD one.

I tried copying the Men Behaving Badly Season 4 DVD. Nero would not do it because it is copy-protected. AcidRip, on Ubuntu, ripped the files without fuss, and then I just put them onto a DVD. It even allowed me to rip without recoding. Admittedly I didn't try a straight DVD copy with K3B.

[denver]

I got a bit tired of threads like this so i asked my girlfriend to help me in an experiment. I proposed to her to try to install both Windows XP and Kubuntu, just for the sake of testing which would be easier to install and configure. The task was to install both, connect to the internet, configure an e-mail client and connect to her favorite IM network.
Now....my girlfriend is youre average computer idiot, and by that i meen that when you mention a computer to her she imediatly thinks of Yahoo! messenger and downloading preety pictures of google. But i love her for other qualities :P.
So...moving right along. First i gave her a bit of information to get her started (like how to boot from a CD) and off to the races.
Her first choice was of course Windows, because she said that she already knows something about windows(was she in for a big surprise). As soon as she booted she found herself in an ugly ASCII interface with text flying before her eyes. She got scared at one time and told me she didn't want to break something...even asked me if she could stop....but she is a tough little trooper and she stuck with it.The partitioning was murdure ...but she did it in the end. She complained about the fact that the installer didn't offer to much information about what was happening. The ASCII interface was crude and primitive. After 30-40 (took so long because she read everithing...including part of the EULA :lol: )mins of pains taking labor she managed to install it and found herself in windows finally. Boy was she happy! She was like a kid on Christmas morning. next came connecting to the internet. That wasn't to hard...because DHCP took care of that...so on to configuring the E-mail client. it took her about 10-15 min to figure it out and another 10 min before she got to installing yahoo messenger and connecting. All and all it took about 1 hour, 1 hour and 15 min MAX(Note she didn't install any Anti virus, firewall or any Office application such as MS Office...which would have added to the install time, and Cost i might add).

Now it was time to try to install Kubuntu.
She poped in the Cd and restarted. She was immediately greated by a few options such as "Install Kubuntu" and "boot from hard disk"...she chose install of course and in a matter of seconds she found herself staring at a desktop in 24 bit color and a shiny Install icon on the Desktop. Needless to say she clicked on it and away she went. The installer offered every piece of information she needed to install Kubuntu. Partitioning went smooth she basically needed to choose her language and timezone and the install took about..ohh i would say...10 min?..12 MAX. She rebooted and she was in Kubuntu connected to the internet via the same feature (DHCP). Clicked on the nice Kmail icon and answered some questions, and Kmail has this nice feature to detect what a pop server can handle and configfures itself (the login method and such)...it took about 5-10 min until she was able to download her mail. Next came connecting to her favorite IM service. She was amazed to find an instant messenger already installed, as was Open Office and a lot of other apps. all and all it took about 25 MAX 30 min to setup and configure for basic web browsing, e-mail checking and IM service, which i thing most users would use they're computer for.

I really see no need to call for a conclusion :P .

Granted...(K)Ubuntu still needs a little bit of work...but so does windows. I don't think its a matter of which one is friendlier but a matter of which one is better supported and advertised. I have friends that ask me "so...how do you watch movies in the terminal?". Windows is all around and its not hard to find support for...because there is always somebody there to help. If there was somebody out there to tell her about Automatix or such programs it would be easier...or better yet...include Automatix in the Distro...now that would reaaaly be handy.

Sorry for the long post...but i thought i would add my 2 cents :P.

[Frak]

What do you think? who will be ahead.

seems like ubuntu still a baby, and windows making a long way through technology.

Not many people have heard of linux ubuntu. They are very much satisfied with windows.



How many years for Ubuntu to be a major operating system like windows Xp is now in the market.

Ans: about 50 Years, i guess


I heard of linux, but m still a windows user. I use the live Cd but don't see much in ubuntu than what windows has!!!!!

Ubuntu is already a major operating system, my school uses it, my friends use it, my family uses it, well actually, most of my town uses it.
The thing is, see, ubuntu is free, no limitations, installs on any pc or mac...
Windows... eh... no.
Ubuntu lets you do anything... with no limitations
Windows... eh... hope you like brick and steel(you already don't sound to smart, so that's what normal people call jail)
Ubuntu is free
Windows... XP-$100 Vista-$200-$300
And last, but not least, you have wine and others so...
I don't see much in Windows than what Ubuntu has!!!!!:cool:

[airtonix]

benplaut (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=12960) : think you could give me access to that magic cvs server? hehehe

[tagra123]

Then I highly suggest you not trying to drive a car any time soon. If Ubuntu is too difficult for you then please don't drive.

In Ubuntu you try something and it might not work but in a car if you screw up people could die. 8-[

I use Ubuntu on all of our computers 6 in total

1 server.
1 Myth-TV
1 desktop - with dual boot for the kids gaming.
2 desktops- with vmplayer running XP (I develop windows programs but prefer to isolate windows withing a window of ubuntu)
1 laptop - xubuntu

I don't mind going to the command lind to make things work.

But for brand new users -- someone learning to drive doesn't need to know how to rebuild an engine or even change a tire for that matter. All they need to do is turn the key.

I recommend ubuntu to first time computer users, or advanced users. It is not the OS for those that have learned to use windows but do not understand what they are doing.

I think what would really be helpful is a hardware compatiblilty library for those of us that want to make the change and don't mind ditching the incompatible hardware. Why fiddle with the lexmark when most hp printers just work. Same for modems and

Multimedia - It took me less than 20 minutes to find the codecs and install them, but I wouldn't recommend this to all my friends , just yet.


Now I'm not saying XP is better, just that ubuntu isn't for everyone, yet.

[motin]

I use Ubuntu on all of our computers 6 in total

1 server.
1 Myth-TV
1 desktop - with dual boot for the kids gaming.
2 desktops- with vmplayer running XP (I develop windows programs but prefer to isolate windows withing a window of ubuntu)
1 laptop - xubuntu

I don't mind going to the command lind to make things work.

But for brand new users -- someone learning to drive doesn't need to know how to rebuild an engine or even change a tire for that matter. All they need to do is turn the key.

I recommend ubuntu to first time computer users, or advanced users. It is not the OS for those that have learned to use windows but do not understand what they are doing.

I think what would really be helpful is a hardware compatiblilty library for those of us that want to make the change and don't mind ditching the incompatible hardware. Why fiddle with the lexmark when most hp printers just work. Same for modems and

Multimedia - It took me less than 20 minutes to find the codecs and install them, but I wouldn't recommend this to all my friends , just yet.


Now I'm not saying XP is better, just that ubuntu isn't for everyone, yet.

Excactly my starting point in this thread. Glad you see it the same way :)

Although the thread has opened the eyes for a compelling reason why as well: It is not because of XP itself, but for all the support it gets externally - drivers and pre-installed programs not included in Windows. If some decent manufacturers would install the codecs, only choose supported hardware etc, Ubuntu would too be for everyone. And the modifications needed for Ubuntu to work as a complete desktop would be minor compared to all the stuff OEM manufacturers do to tame Windows so that it is suitable for the dummy.

[motin]

I got a bit tired of threads like this so i asked my girlfriend to help me in an experiment. I proposed to her to try to install both Windows XP and Kubuntu, just for the sake of testing which would be easier to install and configure. The task was to install both, connect to the internet, configure an e-mail client and connect to her favorite IM network.
Now....my girlfriend is youre average computer idiot, and by that i meen that when you mention a computer to her she imediatly thinks of Yahoo! messenger and downloading preety pictures of google. But i love her for other qualities :P.
So...moving right along. First i gave her a bit of information to get her started (like how to boot from a CD) and off to the races.
Her first choice was of course Windows, because she said that she already knows something about windows(was she in for a big surprise). As soon as she booted she found herself in an ugly ASCII interface with text flying before her eyes. She got scared at one time and told me she didn't want to break something...even asked me if she could stop....but she is a tough little trooper and she stuck with it.The partitioning was murdure ...but she did it in the end. She complained about the fact that the installer didn't offer to much information about what was happening. The ASCII interface was crude and primitive. After 30-40 (took so long because she read everithing...including part of the EULA :lol: )mins of pains taking labor she managed to install it and found herself in windows finally. Boy was she happy! She was like a kid on Christmas morning. next came connecting to the internet. That wasn't to hard...because DHCP took care of that...so on to configuring the E-mail client. it took her about 10-15 min to figure it out and another 10 min before she got to installing yahoo messenger and connecting. All and all it took about 1 hour, 1 hour and 15 min MAX(Note she didn't install any Anti virus, firewall or any Office application such as MS Office...which would have added to the install time, and Cost i might add).

Now it was time to try to install Kubuntu.
She poped in the Cd and restarted. She was immediately greated by a few options such as "Install Kubuntu" and "boot from hard disk"...she chose install of course and in a matter of seconds she found herself staring at a desktop in 24 bit color and a shiny Install icon on the Desktop. Needless to say she clicked on it and away she went. The installer offered every piece of information she needed to install Kubuntu. Partitioning went smooth she basically needed to choose her language and timezone and the install took about..ohh i would say...10 min?..12 MAX. She rebooted and she was in Kubuntu connected to the internet via the same feature (DHCP). Clicked on the nice Kmail icon and answered some questions, and Kmail has this nice feature to detect what a pop server can handle and configfures itself (the login method and such)...it took about 5-10 min until she was able to download her mail. Next came connecting to her favorite IM service. She was amazed to find an instant messenger already installed, as was Open Office and a lot of other apps. all and all it took about 25 MAX 30 min to setup and configure for basic web browsing, e-mail checking and IM service, which i thing most users would use they're computer for.

I really see no need to call for a conclusion :P .

Granted...(K)Ubuntu still needs a little bit of work...but so does windows. I don't think its a matter of which one is friendlier but a matter of which one is better supported and advertised. I have friends that ask me "so...how do you watch movies in the terminal?". Windows is all around and its not hard to find support for...because there is always somebody there to help. If there was somebody out there to tell her about Automatix or such programs it would be easier...or better yet...include Automatix in the Distro...now that would reaaaly be handy.

Sorry for the long post...but i thought i would add my 2 cents :P.

Great effort - but you are comparing pears and apples, and the test doesn't really say anything useful. If you want to make a fair test try one of the following:

2001-style: Race Windows XP against a Debian distro of 2001

2004-style: Race Windows XP SP2 against the first release of Ubuntu (text-mode installer...)

2006-style: Race the publically available Windows Vista Beta against Ubuntu Dapper.

With Vista you will find that everything is _very_ graphical, has very few questions asked and loads of information about it all. After installation a welcome guide will let you easily install a printer, configure networking even if you do not have DHCP enabled - using nice illustrations of how your network should look like in real life etc.

I could compare Openoffice.org now against office 2000 and say they are pretty equal, but it wouldn't do much good when office 2007 exists does it?

Does your girlfriend care to try out the Vista installation and come with a true verdict?

[cptnapalm]

Windows Has:
Hardware support for all of my hardware
The ability to run windows games and programs that at the moment have no viable linux alternative.

As motin pointed out, this has nothing to do with Windows. It has to do with lazy Windows programmers who know nothing about making software portable and hardware manufacturers who are too lazy to get drivers up an running on anything other than Windows. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Windows itself. Of course both would be unproblematic if the former released source code and the latter released hardware specifications sufficient for someone else to write a driver.

Unreal Tournament and id software's entire game collection runs on Linux as does Neverwinter Nights. Windows programmers obviously could get their software running just fine under Linux if they so chose.

So say not that Windows supports more stuff, but rather that most Windows developers are lazy.

:)

[grte]

Great effort - but you are comparing pears and apples, and the test doesn't really say anything useful. If you want to make a fair test try one of the following:

2001-style: Race Windows XP against a Debian distro of 2001

2004-style: Race Windows XP SP2 against the first release of Ubuntu (text-mode installer...)

2006-style: Race the publically available Windows Vista Beta against Ubuntu Dapper.

With Vista you will find that everything is _very_ graphical, has very few questions asked and loads of information about it all. After installation a welcome guide will let you easily install a printer, configure networking even if you do not have DHCP enabled - using nice illustrations of how your network should look like in real life etc.

I could compare Openoffice.org now against office 2000 and say they are pretty equal, but it wouldn't do much good when office 2007 exists does it?

Does your girlfriend care to try out the Vista installation and come with a true verdict?

That's nonsense. XP is the commercially avaiable Windows, right now, and Dapper is the current stable version of Ubuntu.

If you want to drag betas into it, why are you not comparing it to Edgy?

[Drakkor]

Linux with XGL-Compiz rulez ! don't beleive me ? Compare with these 3 videos,and tell me what you think ? Volume Loud ! :p
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/2915/linux_xglcompiz_graphics
Edit: I think Apple pulled their demo ! Wise choice,lol :p

[xpod]

I dont need to watch any videos drakkor....
I got 5 lovely kids all going to be wanting their own computers for their own rooms at some point and THAT in itself will cost a pretty packet.And thats before the laptop demands no doubt..#-o
I dont mind working hard to give my kids anything they want(within reason)
but when i try to imagine ALL the extra £££££££ it would take to keep all those "euro eating eulas" up to date and working properly then im SOOOOOOO
glad i found this thing when i did.

The kids are already using the kubunto(games & writing) and pestering me to convert the old m.e we have as well.I cant really knock windows as i only used me/xp for months but as the latter was a badly infested box when i got it i had many weeks of bad experiences,dehyjacking and more than one of those bsod thing`s(not to mention the installs with no xp cd`s)....ALL solved of course but i am now empowered with all i need to KNOW.Ubunto\linux is the road for me......And the rest of my clan of course:biggrin: .

And of course i spread the word and have converted at least 3 pc`s outwith my own home with the passing on of the live cd`s..

WHO cares if those that cant dont...WHAT matters is us that can ...DO!!!

[motin]

Ubuntu is already a major operating system, my school uses it, my friends use it, my family uses it, well actually, most of my town uses it.
The thing is, see, ubuntu is free, no limitations, installs on any pc or mac...
Windows... eh... no.
Ubuntu lets you do anything... with no limitations
Windows... eh... hope you like brick and steel(you already don't sound to smart, so that's what normal people call jail)
Ubuntu is free
Windows... XP-$100 Vista-$200-$300
And last, but not least, you have wine and others so...
I don't see much in Windows than what Ubuntu has!!!!!:cool:

That's nonsense. XP is the commercially avaiable Windows, right now, and Dapper is the current stable version of Ubuntu.

If you want to drag betas into it, why are you not comparing it to Edgy?

Allright, but you must agree in that comparing a 4,5 year old technology with this summer's release doesn't really say anything about the achievements of either part?

I'll change "2006-style" too:
Late 2006/Early 2007-style: Race Vista against Edgy Eft (or even it's successor...).

I imagine that the results will be fairly equal in this race, and it is not very long 'til Late 2006/Early 2007

[grizzly]

VIsta does have a nice feature: voice recognition and browsing.
the nicest part is that the voice feature works with onscreen elements. Say there is a link 'previous thread' on a website, one can simply 'say' "link previous page" instead of clicking , or searching.

[motin]

Windows Has:
Hardware support for all of my hardware
The ability to run windows games and programs that at the moment have no viable linux alternative.

As motin pointed out, this has nothing to do with Windows. It has to do with lazy Windows programmers who know nothing about making software portable and hardware manufacturers who are too lazy to get drivers up an running on anything other than Windows. This has nothing whatsoever to do with Windows itself. Of course both would be unproblematic if the former released source code and the latter released hardware specifications sufficient for someone else to write a driver.

Unreal Tournament and id software's entire game collection runs on Linux as does Neverwinter Nights. Windows programmers obviously could get their software running just fine under Linux if they so chose.

So say not that Windows supports more stuff, but rather that most Windows developers are lazy.

:)

Or rather: Windows doesn't support more stuff, but more stuff support Windows. And lazy should be complemented with "stingy" i believe. :/

[oedipuss]

I have a feeling Vista will be the new windows ME. I don't know why exactly, just a feeling.
And then Vista+1 will come along, which will be a usable, hopefully nice and stable OS (just like win2k was after winME).

I can't even imagine what ubuntu will be like by the time that happens =D

[Tobster]

When I ask Ubuntu to shutdown, it shuts down. When I tell Windows to shut down, it usually doesn't or sometimes takes up to 15 minutes. This is the primary (but not only) reason I am migrating. This is on every Win XP machine I use (4 of them). Clearly the O/S is bloatware and can't control itself. [-(

The more I use Ubuntu, the more of a compelling feeling I have for sticking with it. :D

Windows is taking so long to close down because your not cleaning your hard drive, not looking after it delating your internet files, doing your monthly defrag....

But there an easy way to look after your files thanks to Free Software we're talking C Cleaner it a register cleaner use it every day and you computer will run as fast as the frist time you used it, know it will not happen over night and the software might take a while to clean all your delated files the frist time, but the second time will take some like 0.3 seconds really fast. The link is:

http://www.ccleaner.com/

Thanks

Toby

[grte]

Allright, but you must agree in that comparing a 4,5 year old technology with this summer's release doesn't really say anything about the achievements of either part?

No, I don't agree with that at all. The release cycle of Ubuntu is one of it's strengths. You can't compare two things and arbitrarily dismiss the strengths of one, that's not fair at all.

And it's not as if Windows hasn't been updating during that time, at any rate.

[motin]

I have a feeling Vista will be the new windows ME. I don't know why exactly, just a feeling.
And then Vista+1 will come along, which will be a usable, hopefully nice and stable OS (just like win2k was after winME).

I can't even imagine what ubuntu will be like by the time that happens =D

It takes MS 5 years to patch up security holes, implementing "Xgl" and making the system overall more beginner-friendly. Nice nice, but Ubuntu will have this done in 2,5 years (With the release of Edgy Eft containing X7.1 incl AIGLX).

It could be estimated that MS will not release Vista+1 before another 5 years of time (as computer evolution must have gone far enough before allowing Vista+1 to install...). In that time Ubuntu will be in Edgy+9 :)

It is all about that the amount of programmers' time spent on Ubuntu compared to Windows is increasing in a much higher pace than MS recruits new guys. In the end, it is inevitable for MS to either shutdown or open-up their OS, I believe.

[motin]

No, I don't agree with that at all. The release cycle of Ubuntu is one of it's strengths. You can't compare two things and arbitrarily dismiss the strengths of one, that's not fair at all.

And it's not as if Windows hasn't been updating during that time, at any rate.

I recently argued that the Ubuntu release cycle will be the end of MS proprietary methods, so we both agree on this point. Still, the only updates released are security patches and the security center... Point being that the technology tested by your girlfriend is 5 years old and it's still like apples and pears.

And, have you read the subject of this thread? I am very interested in tests like the one you two performed, but for this thread the one you posted is somewhat irrelevant still.

[grte]

I recently argued that the Ubuntu release cycle will be the end of MS proprietary methods, so we both agree on this point. Still, the only updates released are security patches and the security center... Point being that the technology tested by your girlfriend is 5 years old and it's still like apples and pears.

And, have you read the subject of this thread? I am very interested in tests like the one you two performed, but for this thread the one you posted is somewhat irrelevant still.

(Just noting - I'm not the guy who carried out the test.)

[gn2]

Can't believe this thread hasn't been put out of it's misery yet.

Although perhaps it has made me rethink my views on certain matters.

Personally I don't care how good Vista may become, I will never buy it when I can use Linux for free.

My main desktop PC currently boots XPsp2, Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS.
Only keep XP because it's paid for already, and the wife refuses to learn new ways...:roll:

When Microsoft terminate support for XP it's Linux all the way and the XP partition will be formatted into oblivion.

On cost terms, there's just no competition.

[Kilz]

I have a feeling Vista will be the new windows ME. I don't know why exactly, just a feeling.
And then Vista+1 will come along, which will be a usable, hopefully nice and stable OS (just like win2k was after winME).

I can't even imagine what ubuntu will be like by the time that happens =D

I think so to. The reason is the hype. Windows ME was all hype. About how it was going to be the best thing since sliced bread. The tons of features, etc.
ME was a release folowing a great product, 98SE is still a fond memory for me. It was followed by another Great OS for its time, XP was great and still is. Its got its standerd Windows faults. But its still mostly usable.
Vista will be ME. There is no way to live up to its Hype, half the features that were expected are gone. The selling point is the eye candy. But opps , unless you get the most up to date hardware you dont get Areo. People are going to expect it. when they dont see it, they are going to say "it looks like XP, it isnt worth the extra cash". Just like Me 'Looked just like 98, it wasnt worth the extra cash". Even if they do get Areo , I bet its slow and bloated.
We also have to ake a look at the last time a Windows was released. There were good reasons to upgrade ME to XP, the hardware was also much improved. But a 3 year old box running XP can do a heck of a lot. If all you are going to do is surf and write emails there is no reason to upgrade. For a lot of people XP "just works".
Microsoft needs this to be a hit. There is no way they can sit back and wait 5 more years for Vista+1. Sadly I dont think its going to be as good as they think it is.
Im also waiting for the DRM to hit the fan. But thats another story. :biggrin:

[Kilz]

My main desktop PC currently boots XPsp2, Ubuntu and PCLinuxOS.
Only keep XP because it's paid for already, and the wife refuses to learn new ways...:roll:


There needs to be a support forum someplace for "Linux Husbands with wifes that "must" use Windows" :D

[xpod]

C Cleaner

Now there was a good thing i did use in xp:biggrin:

[Iandefor]

I guess it is a lot because of the sometimes flaky hardware-support. Hibernation, the smart-card-reader, S-Video out are examples of what doesn't work on my laptop in Ubuntu. Also - not being able to run for instance iTunes is yet another reason - if you ask a dummy (it doesn't matter that amarok has iTunes-support...). Perhaps a "dummy" oughtn't be using something other than Windows if they're so incompetent as to not understand iTunes doesn't work on Linux because Apple won't port it.

2. Yes, but this thread is about Dapper, not Eft! (Looking forward to Eft :) ...) Dapper is only a single release of the Ubuntu operating system and not actively developed anymore (maintained with security updates/critical bugfixes != active development). Why are you intentionally restricting your view to a single release that will be consigned to the dustbin soon (as it probably will once Edgy's out in about 6 weeks, given the number of improvements Edgy has made over Dapper)
3. Why not have a good-working WINE pre-installed - so that dummies can continue using their iTunes, MS Office and games - software they already payed for and know? Because Ubuntu is "Linux for Human Beings", not "Linux for dummies who are willing to change their very operating system but not the applications they use"
4. Explain...? I would rather my help system *helped* me, rather than be bogged down in useless kruft aimed at "dummies" who can't be bothered to check to see if their mouse is plugged in *before* jumping to the help system to see why their mouse isn't working.For a dummy it isn't a belief - it's a fact! No, it's a belief. An irrational fear of interfaces that don't use mice and pretty icons != fact.



1. Gaim does not have video or audio support and cannot wiggle the windows!! (Dummy-important! Market-interest...) [I will stir a lot of momentum with this comment I believe...] I stand corrected.
2. E-mail-support is great, yes. Reread my post. Perhaps you missed the point.
3. Ubuntu with a pre-installed WINE 2.0 would have support for most windows games SFW? Mac OS X with Parallels preinstalled would have support for all Windows games and applications. Your reasoning is akin to saying that Apple should preinstall Parallels on all Macs so people who use Windows won't be frightened by Apple's applications.


But didn't you just insert the disc, reinstalled it and it was working again - didn't even had your /home folder erased because you didn't make aspecial partition for it? And - had you'd been power-using windows? Windows sucks for power-users - use Ubuntu instead.
I inserted the disc. Then reinstalled, which took about 2 hours and was fraught with the installation stopping and asking questions along the way it should bloody well have gotten out of the way first- then, when it was reinstalled, half the hardware was misconfigured, and no, there is no real way to preserve /home in Windows, given that it doesn't particularly exist. "My documents", yes, but is a "dummy" going to know to put that on a separate partition and then configure the new install of Windows to point My Documents to some other folder?

[JayTee]

I concur. I'm running Vista RC1 and Ubuntu 6.06 in dual boot. I've not noticed anything about Vista other than the eye candy graphics of Aero Glass that make it worth the upgrade. My performance on a Pentium D 940 4MB L2 cache with 2GB ram and an NVidia PCI-X GeForce 6200 with 128MB barely outperforms my 2.8ghz P4 with 1MB L2 cache and 1GB ram running Win XP SP2. I did notice an improvement when I reinstalled Vista onto a 160GB SATA-300 drive but not enough to fork over the 299.00 suggested retail for Vista Ultimate Edition. Ubuntu is the best linux distro I've seen yet and it only seems to get better with each new release in terms of user friendliness and ease of setup, install. I did have some horrific problems when I decided to play with XGL\Compiz that totally hosed the system to the point I had to reinstall but I'm not knockin Ubuntu for that because XGL\Compiz is still an infant learning to walk. When it's mature I'll give it another whirl but not until I've had time to learn linux better, back up my system and how to restore my configuration without a complete reinstall. I hope to live long enough to see the day when Ubuntu and other Linux distros rule the office/home desktop and people say "I can't believe they used to pay Microsoft for that!" In fairness to Windows and Microsoft, I can't think of one other company that's done more to stimulate the personal computer marketplace. I make my living supporting their software so if they go under I've gotta retrain for a new job :grin: .

[Drakkor]

@xpod.... Aw come on now ! Watch the videos ! =D>
I saw it weeks ago,and had to find it again,and now,no one will
watch it ! lol :rolleyes:
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/29...ompiz_graphics
Eye candy in Vista ?

[DarkBabar]

.

[mixmaster]

I concur. I'm running Vista RC1 and Ubuntu 6.06 in dual boot. I've not noticed anything about Vista other than the eye candy graphics of Aero Glass that make it worth the upgrade.
To be absoutely fair, the few desirable features of Vista (which IMHO do not include the new interface) really need new hardware. Things like hybrid drives will be nice and it will be a little while before they are supported in linux.

There is very little reason to upgrade XP to Vista (even if you can - I have read XP Pro requires a backup-reinstall to upgrade). If you buy a new PC with the new hardware it will almost certainly come with Vista pre-installed due to the MS licencing stranglehold.

[xpod]

Of course i have watched them mate but even if it was the other way round i still would`nt change my mind.....hell i would`nt change my mind if vista came as a free iso.

My m.e and xp were second hand and in a right old mess..the xp especially and all i did for the few months i was on them was chase down programs like the above or registry programs or spyware programs or try replace missing & corrupt dll`s and of course try figure out how to re-install with no m.e or xp cd`s.Then theres all the unnessesary services and procesess you`ve got to suss out before it`ll even run`s half decently.....Or even shutdown decently

NNaaa.....fair play to them,im sure it`s a really good thing asides from all that but it`s just not for me now that i know what i know..

Unless i mabey win the lottery one day...All THAT 5 times over..NO THANKS

Without meaning to be a stereotypical jock, i love the "free beer":-\"

EDIT:I haven't tried Vista, but unless it totally fails to install, it's going to beat the crap out of Ubuntu, since Ubuntu fails to install. The only way Ubuntu could win, is if Vista somehow manages to damage my hardware.
Ubuntu is a joke, and not a funny one.
Reply With Quote

It seems you need to close your dirty windows and open your mind..

OF course...WHAT do i know eh??mmmmmmmmmmmmmtch tch

[ADH]

OS/2 was always more secure and reliable than Windows, and still is, but the M$ monopoly pretty much insured that Windows would be the OS used by the vast majority of people. It is, and has been, preinstalled on almost every system sold, so, unless people built their own machines, Windows was what computer buyers got and used. People who looked further (via bbs echoes before, and web sites and newsgroups now) knew of and used alternative operating systems, but such users were a small percentage of the total number of computer users.

Linux faces similar obstacles, in that the average user doesn't know about it. On the plus side, though, Linux gets mentioned in the mainstream and computer media, which will help. I don't know much I'll do with Linux (my initial experience has put a bad taste in my mouth), but I have it to mess around with and hopefully learn some. The reason I wanted to try Linux is because I hate Windows, and OS/2-eComStation doesn't have all the web plugins available that Windows does, and I thought Linux would have more.

[Kilz]

To be absoutely fair, the few desirable features of Vista (which IMHO do not include the new interface) really need new hardware. Things like hybrid drives will be nice and it will be a little while before they are supported in linux.

There is very little reason to upgrade XP to Vista (even if you can - I have read XP Pro requires a backup-reinstall to upgrade). If you buy a new PC with the new hardware it will almost certainly come with Vista pre-installed due to the MS licencing stranglehold.

The thing is, those drives will be mainly in new computers. Some people will run out and get them , but not a lot of people if they have to upgrade the os to use one. Joe sixpack sure isnt going to.
So that leaves Vista in the realm of os for new computers. Not something people are going to install on the one they already own.
For most people the computer they own is going to be good enough. Most PC's sold in the last 3 years are powerful enough for joe sixpack. There will be no need to run out and buy a new one. Especialy if the only reason is a larger drive and eye candy.

[Drakkor]

@xpod... I totally agree,Ubuntu Linux for life ! :)
I just wanted some people to see exactly how pathetic vista is going to be in comparison,even if you buy a new computer to go with it !
Other thoughts,unfortunately a lot of people don't know that an operating system is not the same thing as a computer. They buy a computer and think that it's a Microsoft XP, or a Microsoft Vista computer, if they know that much, I have seen people that don't know which OS they are using ! So sad :frown:

[xpod]

Other thoughts,unfortunately a lot of people don't know that an operating system is not the same thing as a computer.

LOL...Up until a few weeks ago i thought a "partition" was where my water boiler was kept behind...And i REALLY did once get my DLL`s and MY LOL`s mixed up..
The poor bloke must have thought i was mad when i told him i`d run "sfc /scannow" and it kept requesting LOL`s and an XP cd to get them from!

Mind you i did have it redirected 2 days later to look in the i386 on the pc so i do learn quick.......sometimes:-\" ..

THATS just one of the many blissfully ignorant problems ive had in my 6 months...Im getting there though.....i hope

[Bigguy2468]

Linux with XGL-Compiz rulez ! don't beleive me ? Compare with these 3 videos,and tell me what you think ? Volume Loud ! :p
http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/2915/linux_xglcompiz_graphics
Edit: I think Apple pulled their demo ! Wise choice,lol :p

Drakkor, which distro comes with XGL-Compiz. The only other demo I seen was a Sun Technology conference video where they were introducing it.

[motin]

Perhaps a "dummy" oughtn't be using something other than Windows if they're so incompetent as to not understand iTunes doesn't work on Linux because Apple won't port it.

Aight - Just say "do not use Ubuntu, because you're too stupid" to 80% of all computer users then?

Dapper is only a single release of the Ubuntu operating system and not actively developed anymore (maintained with security updates/critical bugfixes != active development). Why are you intentionally restricting your view to a single release that will be consigned to the dustbin soon (as it probably will once Edgy's out in about 6 weeks, given the number of improvements Edgy has made over Dapper)
Because Ubuntu is "Linux for Human Beings", not "Linux for dummies who are willing to change their very operating system but not the applications they use"
I would rather my help system *helped* me, rather than be bogged down in useless kruft aimed at "dummies" who can't be bothered to check to see if their mouse is plugged in *before* jumping to the help system to see why their mouse isn't working. No, it's a belief. An irrational fear of interfaces that don't use mice and pretty icons != fact.

I focus in Dapper because it is the stable version of the moment. Other people tend to focux on XP even nowadays even though it is more than 4 years old and Vista is around the corner.

I prefer the default behavior of a system that will help dummies - but allow me to turn it all off in a simple matter if I do not consider myself a dummy.

I stand corrected.

I just read about Gaim 2.0, it should have some of those functions though... :)

Reread my post. Perhaps you missed the point.

You mean: "MSN works fine in GAIM. If you have web-based e-mail or an account running on a server that supports any one of the major e-mail protocols, you'll be able to check your e-mail. Regarding games, talk to game makers. Ubuntu can't magically make them all work."

True, I do not get yout point.

SFW? Mac OS X with Parallels preinstalled would have support for all Windows games and applications. Your reasoning is akin to saying that Apple should preinstall Parallels on all Macs so people who use Windows won't be frightened by Apple's applications.

I mean so that they can use the vital software that does not have a viable counterpart in Linux at the moment.

I inserted the disc. Then reinstalled, which took about 2 hours and was fraught with the installation stopping and asking questions along the way it should bloody well have gotten out of the way first- then, when it was reinstalled, half the hardware was misconfigured, and no, there is no real way to preserve /home in Windows, given that it doesn't particularly exist. "My documents", yes, but is a "dummy" going to know to put that on a separate partition and then configure the new install of Windows to point My Documents to some other folder?

C:\Documents and Settings = /home

Doesn't need to be put on a separate partition. I am talking about a reinstall, not a format partition, make fresh install...

Also - maybe you should try to use hardware that is supported by Windows? Like Ubuntu-users need to do (but the other way around of course)?

[someusernoob]

It depends all on the marketing and the way manufacturers push people to use Linux, just like Microsoft is doing with Windows. As long as there is no shiny "Compatible with Ubuntu" sticker on the hardware boxes it will not become popular. As long as there aren't 6 Linux magazines against 1 Windows magazine in the shop it will not become popular. As long as you can't get a laptop with a Linux distro pre-installed in every computer store it will not become popular.

In my eyes Ubuntu is usable on a daily basis. Even for people with 0% computer knowledge. The hard part is maintaining the system – as you saw it happened twice that some folks couldn't start X due an update, and they thought their computer broke.

But using Linux or Windows, they both need maintaining – most people do not care as much as the more advanced users do. 80% of the people do not know that their spyware programs are spyware. A firewall is useless for 50% of the people since they do not know what they should and what they shouldn't block – so they allow everything and if e.g. Firefox is accidentally blocked, they think their internet is broken.

Ordinary people do not know how to install an operating system whether it is Windows or Linux – people do not know anything about partitions and hard disks, they don't know what is inside the box called 'the computer'. Even if you can grab a few free installation disks at Wal-Mart, people do not know what to do with them. And the funny part is, they do not want to know it either. They just want to use a 'computer'.

No matter how stable and user friendly Ubuntu is, people aren't interested as long it doesn't come out-of-the-box pre-installed on there overpriced pre-build machines.

And a lot of people do not even know they are running Windows – so what should they care there will be a new version waiting for them, how do such people ever going to know that there are (free op source) alternatives...

So: Ubuntu 6.06 (by the time Vista is there that will be 6.10) vs Vista.

They are both winners. Vista is a winner because at least 80% of the people buying a new computer buy Vista. Ubuntu is a winner because they are allready so popular among a lot of computer users, and it is still growing and growing and growing. I don't know now as much Linux users who switched to Windows as I know Windows users who switched to Linux.

[Marksman Ken]

I dont know what I'll do, I hate windows, especially vista but can t get ubuntu to do basic things so whats the other choice? Stick with crappy old XP I guess :(

Its also been mentioned that you will need a good computer to run windows vista (which is really crap), what happens if you have a top notch computer with ubuntu? I'll tell you , not much because half my hardware isnt even supported and probably will not be for at least another 6 months. Plus when it is supported it dosent work right. #-o

[xpod]

Oh dear ...what a lot of specs to have and not be able to USE.
Mind you i suppose you need all that to run xp half decently eh.:biggrin:

I`ll stick to my old bangers that run anything i care to put on them....
Im begining to see that all the silly "new pc user" issues ive had this last few months have been lessened by hardware that at least works!

Sorry to hear your woes but im sure it`s not as bad as you say.....surely??

Best o luck anyway as i better drag myself off the bloody thing and go get some zz`s.....

ps...if at first you dont succeed then try try again,...you just never know

[motin]

The thing is, those drives will be mainly in new computers. Some people will run out and get them , but not a lot of people if they have to upgrade the os to use one. Joe sixpack sure isnt going to.
So that leaves Vista in the realm of os for new computers. Not something people are going to install on the one they already own.
For most people the computer they own is going to be good enough. Most PC's sold in the last 3 years are powerful enough for joe sixpack. There will be no need to run out and buy a new one. Especialy if the only reason is a larger drive and eye candy.

Still - a LOT of people believe that they MUST HAVE Vista, just like they must have the latest cellphone etc. Stupid doctrine... Also - people will want to see the same stuff at home as in their office - and will thus want Vista.

Of course i have watched them mate but even if it was the other way round i still would`nt change my mind.....hell i would`nt change my mind if vista came as a free iso.

Same here.

It depends all on the marketing and the way manufacturers push people to use Linux, just like Microsoft is doing with Windows. As long as there is no shiny "Compatible with Ubuntu" sticker on the hardware boxes it will not become popular. As long as there aren't 6 Linux magazines against 1 Windows magazine in the shop it will not become popular. As long as you can't get a laptop with a Linux distro pre-installed in every computer store it will not become popular.

In my eyes Ubuntu is usable on a daily basis. Even for people with 0% computer knowledge. The hard part is maintaining the system – as you saw it happened twice that some folks couldn't start X due an update, and they thought their computer broke.

But using Linux or Windows, they both need maintaining – most people do not care as much as the more advanced users do. 80% of the people do not know that their spyware programs are spyware. A firewall is useless for 50% of the people since they do not know what they should and what they shouldn't block – so they allow everything and if e.g. Firefox is accidentally blocked, they think their internet is broken.

Ordinary people do not know how to install an operating system whether it is Windows or Linux – people do not know anything about partitions and hard disks, they don't know what is inside the box called 'the computer'. Even if you can grab a few free installation disks at Wal-Mart, people do not know what to do with them. And the funny part is, they do not want to know it either. They just want to use a 'computer'.

No matter how stable and user friendly Ubuntu is, people aren't interested as long it doesn't come out-of-the-box pre-installed on there overpriced pre-build machines.

And a lot of people do not even know they are running Windows – so what should they care there will be a new version waiting for them, how do such people ever going to know that there are (free op source) alternatives...

So: Ubuntu 6.06 (by the time Vista is there that will be 6.10) vs Vista.

They are both winners. Vista is a winner because at least 80% of the people buying a new computer buy Vista. Ubuntu is a winner because they are allready so popular among a lot of computer users, and it is still growing and growing and growing. I don't know now as much Linux users who switched to Windows as I know Windows users who switched to Linux.

Great post! You really pinpointed to dummy aspect here - a perspective 95% of all GNU/Linux users seems to have lost somewhere between grub and alsa. My main goal in starting this thread is to make people think more about the dummy-perspective. Without them, we are practically nothing. At the same time - appealing to them is not the way to go. Value - for OEM manufacturers and companies is the direct targets - the dummies the indirect (since they are the customers of the mentioned).

[missmoondog]

not even a contest right now, but if you're tired of the ms B.S. and want something that just works..............................

[pesach]

I dont know what I'll do, I hate windows, especially vista but can t get ubuntu to do basic things so whats the other choice? Stick with crappy old XP I guess :(

I tottaly agree with you. Windows is annoying, but I still have not been able to even get Ubuntu to boot from my hd, so until I can do that, Im going with windows:-\"

[Frak]

Of course i have watched them mate but even if it was the other way round i still would`nt change my mind.....hell i would`nt change my mind if vista came as a free iso.

My m.e and xp were second hand and in a right old mess..the xp especially and all i did for the few months i was on them was chase down programs like the above or registry programs or spyware programs or try replace missing & corrupt dll`s and of course try figure out how to re-install with no m.e or xp cd`s.Then theres all the unnessesary services and procesess you`ve got to suss out before it`ll even run`s half decently.....Or even shutdown decently

NNaaa.....fair play to them,im sure it`s a really good thing asides from all that but it`s just not for me now that i know what i know..

Unless i mabey win the lottery one day...All THAT 5 times over..NO THANKS

Without meaning to be a stereotypical jock, i love the "free beer":-\"

EDIT:

It seems you need to close your dirty windows and open your mind..

OF course...WHAT do i know eh??mmmmmmmmmmmmmtch tch


What you said is EXACTLYright. Everybody is going to want Vista, even the people who can't afford it.
The crime perspective.
Vista is going to be cracked and distributed,...
No matter what,
Where Ubuntu is free
"Cracking" is going to be a thing of the past.
Scince it will be legal.
Called "Downloading"
Which is why Ubuntu is worth it
FREE!

[ubelducky]

Sorry but I just couldnt resist posting to this thread. Ive been a long time linux user. Ive switched distros a time or two but have always had linux on my home desktop. I like the fact that my Ubuntu setup can be a desktop and a server at the same time without f'ing up. I also like the fact that my system can stay up longer than Windows Server 2003 without needing a reboot. It plays well with other network hardware... by that I mean other network attached devices that MS-WIN will not. Finally, there is the price factor. XP=200.00 + Office=250.00 (if you can find it cheap), while ubuntu and openoffice have been and will always be free, thats not to mention other great stuff like apache, inkscape, evolution, and gimp, which are also free and are as close as a simple apt-get.

[Phatfiddler]

If anyone wants to really test Linux vs. Vista, feel free to download the new Windows Vista RC1 from Microsoft's site and dual-boot. Let us know the results. You need a .NET passport account i.e. hotmail to downnload.

BTW its a 2.5 GB download, so go make a sandwich.

[Frak]

What do you think? who will be ahead.

seems like ubuntu still a baby, and windows making a long way through technology.

Not many people have heard of linux ubuntu. They are very much satisfied with windows.



How many years for Ubuntu to be a major operating system like windows Xp is now in the market.

Ans: about 50 Years, i guess




I heard of linux, but m still a windows user. I use the live Cd but don't see much in ubuntu than what windows has!!!!!

You really should look at the price value

[pesach]

so far the only thing I see better about Ubuntu the Windows is that it is cheaper.

[maniacmusician]

can vista dual boot with a linux system without wiping it out (assuming that the linux system is installed first)? I don't really feel like risking my perfectly installed system that i do not want to ever have to reinstall. ever.

[motin]

If anyone wants to really test Linux vs. Vista, feel free to download the new Windows Vista RC1 from Microsoft's site and dual-boot. Let us know the results. You need a .NET passport account i.e. hotmail to downnload.

BTW its a 2.5 GB download, so go make a sandwich.

I did this. Here were my first impressions:

Vista-installation:

+
Easy and user-friendly (and good looking as well)

-
4 different visual appearences throughout the installation confuses...

Vista-installed 1st impression:

+
A nice welcome guide/window gets you going with network, printers, new features and much more.
Nice UI. The control panel is very illustrative and beginner-friendly
S-Video output works out of the box

-
A dialogue asking me to press OK (security) comes up tooo often - even when I want to connect to a WLAN, or install a program (multiple times) - I just feel after 10 min a strong soon irresistable urge to turn the damn dialogue off
Somewhat disappointed in what 5 years of development had yielded - not many immediate news to be seen (Couldn't find how to activate Aero as well)
Standard-installation took 6,8 Gb disk space!

can vista dual boot with a linux system without wiping it out (assuming that the linux system is installed first)? I don't really feel like risking my perfectly installed system that i do not want to ever have to reinstall. ever.

Vista will blow away grub as customary by MS installers (nothing has changed in that part for 5 years... still not taking other bootloaders into consideration). So go google on "reinstall grub after vista installation" on beforehand and you'll be fine. My system is intact at least :)