I think u need some help.....

[geokok1981]

I am the proud owner of a Dapper running system for the past two
months. One of the reasons that motivated me in using ubuntu was
the immidiate and serious response of various forum members to any issues I had so far.

However, as time goes by, it seems that ubuntu, especially after the dapper release is gathering steam...perhaps too much steam.
It seems that it is not as easy or fast to get an answer to a problem and this is, I believe, due to the fact that the user base has increased.

I know that all of you are as willing as ever to help and even myself answer some questions others might have (although I can only answer simple stuff so far), but I strongly believe that it is now maybe more important than ever to rev up our engines by getting more people on board, that will have the attitude AND the knowledge (unlike me for example), to help.

It is vital to maintain the same responsivness of the early Dapper days.

I would like to close by saying that I don't blame anyone for this. Just making a notice/suggestion. Ubuntu is growing and help support must be always ahead of that growth.

Thanks.

[skale]

True.

Actually, the best way to learn is to help other guys with easy stuff. Soon you will start moving on to harder questions. And, if people like us handle the easy ones, the more experienced guys can focus on harder ones.

[Lord Illidan]

I speak as one who has perhaps slightly more experience in the Ubuntu community.

I am finding the attitude of most new members extremely non conductive to me helping them. They want to be spoonfed. They don't know what search means. They hardly ever google up something. And they are abusive.

Not all new members are like that. But an increasing number of them are. So I have stopped helping out as much as I used to.

[geokok1981]

Well, the thing is Lord Illidan that they are users. They may
stay or may go, and they are many, many more than the members of the forum that provide the actual help.

What I mean is, they represent themselves. U cant expect all of them to be polite and tolerant. But that's just them.

U on the other hand, represent something bigger. U r the core of the ubuntu support team for the simple user that has nowhere else to turn to than the community forums for help. So, you have to be as "professional" as you can be when trying to help others.

U have to be polite and tolerant and responsive and a million more things (but you chose to be a member of the community so it shoulf be ok with you ;) ).

U shouldn't be bothered by some users that are not up to your (mine) standards, cause for the rest of the world we have to be up to their standards.....

And this is why I say that more people are needed....

[23meg]

I am finding the attitude of most new members extremely non conductive to me helping them. They want to be spoonfed. They don't know what search means. They hardly ever google up something. And they are abusive.

Not all new members are like that. But an increasing number of them are. So I have stopped helping out as much as I used to.
Also true. And I'll add to that:

- Users who don't list the very basic details that will let others help them (such as the model and brand of their hardware, the errors they're getting)

- Users who start by bashing Ubuntu or other software and then half heartedly ask for help

- Users with a very short attention span who aren't even really willing to solve their own problems but can rant endlessly about them

- Users who are unaware of the fact that nobody is under any obligation to help them, and think their every question must be answered completely and when they aren't, raise chaos.

Whenever I see one of these attitudes, I warn the poster once about them and if things don't change, I stop trying to help and I encourage everyone to do the same.

[picpak]

Also true. And I'll add to that:

- Users who don't list the very basic details that will let others help them (such as the model and brand of their hardware, the errors they're getting)


I've gone this far without knowing a thing about my hardware. Is it REALLY that important?

[23meg]

I've gone this far without knowing a thing about my hardware. Is it REALLY that important?You've gone where? It's OK not to know a thing about your hardware as long as it works. If it doesn't, and you're asking for help about the situation, how on earth can someone who has no idea what your computer consists of help you?

Now let's try something (and by the way this is real): I've been using my mother's laptop for a while, and sound isn't working with Dapper. Can you help me?

How on earth are you supposed to know what my mother's laptop is, let alone what sound hardware it has and why it may be failing the way it is? Believe me, there are lots of threads started in the exact manner as above.

[picpak]

You could set the volumes accordingly with alsamixer, configure the drivers with alsaconf, or go into BIOS and mess with the onboard sound card (this worked with me). Done.

[23meg]

You missed it; the sound chip isn't recognized by the kernel at all, so no luck with alsamixer. There's nothing in my BIOS about the sound chip either; maybe you'd already know these, or one of them (or someone else reviewing my thread would) if I had mentioned the brand and model of the laptop and/or sound chip.

Let me put it this way: anyone who wants my help should give basic information about their hardware and how it's failing. I don't care if the rest of the forum users are psychics and don't need this information; I do.

[picpak]

I guess you're right there...can you tell I don't offer much help on these forums? :p

[navymom]

I speak as one who has perhaps slightly more experience in the Ubuntu community.

I am finding the attitude of most new members extremely non conductive to me helping them. They want to be spoonfed. They don't know what search means. They hardly ever google up something. And they are abusive.

Not all new members are like that. But an increasing number of them are. So I have stopped helping out as much as I used to.

Lord Illidan, not everyone is the techy guru that you appear to be. Many noobs to Ubuntu and Linux in general have always used nothing but Windows that rarely requires them to much more than pop in a cd then click click click you're done. It's not so much that they want to be spoon fed as you put it as that they just frankly don't know what they're doing. Even I had problems with this when I first installed it and it's not because I don't know anything about computers. I've been computing since the days of DOS and have some programming background. Although I don't claim to be an expert with computer, I'm pretty apt taking one apart, putting it back together, and configuring one to work. Computer Science was my major in college. But computers have come a long way since 1984. I've yet to come across something that I absolutely can't fix on one, software issues included. But when starting with this I had many times that I felt like a complete computing idiot.

As for searching the forums, I believe it's not so much as someone not bothering to search as much as it is not knowing how to do it successfully. There have been quite a few times I've attempted to search for an answer to my questions only to be given a truckload of useless posts that have very little if anything to do with what I need. Of course over time, I've become more accustomed with the search function here and have had to ask less questions. But as an example, try doing a search for a question pertaining to what type of software would be suitable for something. You'll get 100 posts listed with one of them being "Looking for a program...." that has over 700 replies. Sometimes it's just too time consuming and easier to ask a simple question in a forum.

As for the needing help, I've yet to ask a question that I didn't have a reply to within an hour. I think the forums are great.

[John.Michael.Kane]

picpak It's not so much the quantity of help but the quality. most of the post from users who have issues,and or feel the need to leave have not offered enough info or refuse to find the info on their own,and as stated want the everything to be copy paste based commands.

theres stickies which clearly ask the enduser to list all error-code's system spec's ect. if the fourm members who are trying to help out around here "mind you none of the members are obligated to answer or read posts" is it really to much to ask that a new user or for that matter even veteran users to search or be as detailed/specific when making post for info/help.


We all get burned out from time to time answering many questions some being repetitive,however.most here do make a great effort to help all.


Just my thoughts..

[Lord Illidan]

Lord Illidan, not everyone is the techy guru that you appear to be. Many noobs to Ubuntu and Linux in general have always used nothing but Windows that rarely requires them to much more than pop in a cd then click click click you're done. It's not so much that they want to be spoon fed as you put it as that they just frankly don't know what they're doing. Even I had problems with this when I first installed it and it's not because I don't know anything about computers. I've been computing since the days of DOS and have some programming background. Although I don't claim to be an expert with computer, I'm pretty apt taking one apart, putting it back together, and configuring one to work. Computer Science was my major in college. But computers have come a long way since 1984. I've yet to come across something that I absolutely can't fix on one, software issues included. But when starting with this I had many times that I felt like a complete computing idiot.
Techy guru? I wish..
I've had countless problems with Linux. I solved nearly all of them by searching on Google. And I did feel like an idiot at the start, too.

[geokok1981]

I understand that you guys have problems with many users in the forums,
but once again, that is beside the point here.

It is just like commercial tech support. Those guys in the help desks
(when they know what they r doing that is) have to sit all day and
listen to the most weird and unreasonable demands by people who
most of the times don't even want to to really help themselves.

Because ubuntu (and linux in general) is on it's way of becoming mainstream (finally!) the critical mass of the users base is going to switch from techies or people who even know basic stuff about their pc's and include more and more of the new breed, the "just complaining" kind.

What is going to happen then? I am not saying that the community has to tolerate each and every psycho, but has to be well prepered in replacing the tech support (cause the community IS the only place to go) in terms of efficiency and responsivness. It is vital to realise just how much important the forum role is in promoting Ubuntu and how well organized it needs to be.

So far this forum has been up to the challenge. BUt thanks to Mark Shuttleworth's efforts+community efforts+anyone who loves ubuntu have raised the bar and we need to catch up!!!

Don't mind about nagging users. Don't care for vague questions. Care for ubuntu (as u have done so far) and care about the service that you ,have chosen to provide for the benefit of all, working within the spirit of Linux itself.

After all that though, my main question still remains unanswered. How can more people, carrying the knowledge, can be invited to offer their services?

[kriding]

honestly, they can't. If they are a Ubuntu user, they will find this site, and come looking here for answers and support, otherwise, a lot of people will populate forums more dedicated to their distro.

The community relies on people like us, learning what we can, then passing on the info to other new users, as they join the forums.


I'm not the most linux savvy person out there, but I will look through posts (usually because I will pick up little bits of info that will let me solve a problem or just experiment with linux) and if I find a post that I can help with, I try..I may not get it completly right, but that allows me to learn also, because if i do get it wrong, it usually gets corrected, soagain , I learn....

Ironicly, the people who are needed here to help, are the new users who need the help to begin with:shock:

[Lord Illidan]

Yeah, this is true. Many of us who wandered on this forum for information back in the good old days recieved help, liked it, and stayed around to contribute.
However, many newbies just ask for help and that's that. And so, the ratio of helpers to askers is getting more uncomfortable.

[kabus]

It is just like commercial tech support.

It isn't, for obvious reasons.

[bernied]

I think geokok1981 is wrong in his/her description of what the 'Ubuntu Community' has to be in terms of responsiveness and efficiency. The 'Ubuntu Community' (whatever that is) is not a commercial organisation with commercial interests. The so-called 'community' does not have to provide anything to the end users of Ubuntu - they have already provided (and continue to provide updates for) an extraordinary thing, for nothing. What the user does with it is completely up to them. If there are fora, like this one, where people can get help, then once again this is an extraordinary contribution. Without going into the motives of people who offer help on this and other fora, one thing is quite certain to me - there is no obligation on any forum member, or on the forum as a whole, to answer anybody's questions.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want guaranteed support, pay for it. If you want an interesting and free (as in both beer and speech) experience with computers and other users/developers, then stick with the free distributions and enjoy the ride.

I think it's quite arrogant to suggest to a bunch of volunteers, who generally do their best to help as much as they can, that they should up their game and improve their service.

[Lord Illidan]

I think geokok1981 is wrong in his/her description of what the 'Ubuntu Community' has to be in terms of responsiveness and efficiency. The 'Ubuntu Community' (whatever that is) is not a commercial organisation with commercial interests. The so-called 'community' does not have to provide anything to the end users of Ubuntu - they have already provided (and continue to provide updates for) an extraordinary thing, for nothing. What the user does with it is completely up to them. If there are fora, like this one, where people can get help, then once again this is an extraordinary contribution. Without going into the motives of people who offer help on this and other fora, one thing is quite certain to me - there is no obligation on any forum member, or on the forum as a whole, to answer anybody's questions.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want guaranteed support, pay for it. If you want an interesting and free (as in both beer and speech) experience with computers and other users/developers, then stick with the free distributions and enjoy the ride.

I think it's quite arrogant to suggest to a bunch of volunteers, who generally do their best to help as much as they can, that they should up their game and improve their service.


I quite agree. None of us is paid here. Look at aysiu who has helped by far the most people in this forum. He doesn't get paid a cent. We do our best, but we expect you to do your part, too.

[geokok1981]

"Ubuntu forums are not commercial suport"
"They should pay if they wanted commercial support".
"We do our best already"

1.I am not suggesting, by any means that forum volunteers dont't try their best!!!! (cause I know, and said that repeatedly, you don't get paid). Of course u do what u do because u want to do it and that's not questionable.

2. Yes, the fora is not a commercial support service. I was merely trying to give an example here. And the tern "service" was used not in the sense of pay-to-get service but as a service for the community, the people, in the best interest of all.

3. They should pay for commercial support???Who?When?How??
I mean we are not talking about enterprise users here. We are talking about home users. They got a software that IS free. If they would have to pay for it (in any way, be that support, the cd, the box, whatever) they could as well use an other OS that is already commercial. There is no support other than these forums for ubuntu for the desktop users. This is exactly why I am saying it needs to "replace" (NOT BECOME) commercial support.

I think u got me all wrong. I never said the forums don't work as they should or that we should hire people!!The very essence of my post was that:
Beacause the user base IS increasing it would be good (if not necessary to have more people (volunteers) working in the fora that will be able to take part of the load and help novice users, who, yes, they behave some times in the way you described earlier. That is all, and I don't think it is not a well justified thought.

[Kilz]

"Ubuntu forums are not commercial suport"
"They should pay if they wanted commercial support".
"We do our best already"

1.I am not suggesting, by any means that forum volunteers dont't try their best!!!! (cause I know, and said that repeatedly, you don't get paid). Of course u do what u do because u want to do it and that's not questionable.

2. Yes, the fora is not a commercial support service. I was merely trying to give an example here. And the tern "service" was used not in the sense of pay-to-get service but as a service for the community, the people, in the best interest of all.

3. They should pay for commercial support???Who?When?How??
I mean we are not talking about enterprise users here. We are talking about home users. They got a software that IS free. If they would have to pay for it (in any way, be that support, the cd, the box, whatever) they could as well use an other OS that is already commercial. There is no support other than these forums for ubuntu for the desktop users. This is exactly why I am saying it needs to "replace" (NOT BECOME) commercial support.

I think u got me all wrong. I never said the forums don't work as they should or that we should hire people!!The very essence of my post was that:
Beacause the user base IS increasing it would be good (if not necessary to have more people (volunteers) working in the fora that will be able to take part of the load and help novice users, who, yes, they behave some times in the way you described earlier. That is all, and I don't think it is not a well justified thought.

3.There is commercial support (http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid) for people who want to be guarenteed of help. what the forums are is a free service supported by other users. How can the Free forums replace paid for service? It cant. There is no way. People who help out on the forums answering questions do it out of the goodness of their hearts.
Replacing and becoming are the same thing in my mind. I sadly think that already has happened in some peoples mind. They think because the OS is free the forums are their god given support and they can demand things.

What I don't think you understand is that no one recruits people to help. Those that do help do it because of different reasons. I do it to give back for whats been given me. Its a shame other people don't feel the same way.
I think a lot of new users confuse the forums with paid support from other operating systems. They are so used to demanding things, they just continue doing it here. They don't realize nothing is really free in this world. For Ubuntu to continue to grow they have to give something. It isn't cash that you have to give in Ubuntu's or any Linux distro's case. But you need to give something back if you can.
Simply trying to help is a good way of doing it. I cant tell you in this short amount of space all I have learned doing that. I started out helping on easy questions. If more new users would do that. The forums would be unstoppable.

[geokok1981]

I agree with you. In fact, I agree with all of you. But before each new
user is able to help novice users with dificult questions, it would be good
to have more advanced users on board to tackle their problems. That's all...
As for the commercial support, I thought it was only for bussiness customers. But they cover home users as well.....at 250 a year.....

[cstudent]

Canonical offers paid support to anyone:

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/paid

You can also get paid support from third party vendors:

http://www.ubuntu.com/support/marketplace

Here in the Ubuntu forum you get what you pay for.

[John.Michael.Kane]

geokok1981 just how do you plan to spot the so called "more advanced users" as you put it.for you to tag just the advance user's as the ones who are able to help new user's is wrong. there is no such thing as an advance user of anything. we all have much to learn in reguards to linux.

also you have to remember most desktop users looking for help here just want help to get xyz working or installed. not every user wants to "be an advanced user" they just want things to work,however.All forum members i feel have much to offer in the way of knowledge when it comes to helping out on this forum not just the advance members.

[Kilz]

Gosh I'm glad helping isn't restricted to "advanced" users. I would have never been able to start. I don't even count myself as "advanced" now. I also think the helping spirit is what attracts people to the community. There is just no place else like it, and it does become addicting in a good sense. The idea behind " Ubuntu, or "I am who I am because of who we all are" makes no room for only the advanced. Everyone has something to give. :D
Sadly some only take, we need more givers.

[geokok1981]

:confused: ...Ok ...I give up...

It seems that I try to say something here that is in complete
agreement with what you say and believe and still getting
negative responses back, stating things that I completely agree
with. Oh I ll show you!! I am going back to windows...(just kidding).

It is probably me writing english while thinking in my native language....

Anyway to close this issue and try one last time to make a point...

I dont say "restrict" help only from advanced users....
I know what a forum is and represents...
I know we are all part of this cause we want to...
I respect (as you do) others opinion regardless of their "status"....
I am only saying (please, please I hope I am clear this time) we need more people who are able to answer the questions "how do I install xyz app" that u mentioned. He who can answer that or even more complex questions is for me an advanced user. The one asking that is not and probably won't be able to help others until some time goes by...

I said I know what a forum is. But I also feel that this forum is more than your regular tech forum. It is based on the same principles but it is directly connected with Ubuntu and that is what makes it special. This, and only this, is the reason I say it has to be more, efficient lets say (please dont get hooked on the words used), that the everyday tech forum......

It is as simple as this.We have 3000 people asking (whatever), and 500 people answering (those that actually have an answer).
In time the first 3000 will be able to help others, but until then we have an obvious unbalanced system!!
And that is simple math. Don't tell me you don't agree with that!!!
So the reason I posted was, "what can be done to raise that 500 number of users" or "how can the 3000 be accumulated/educated in greater ratio to help the system that provides the community help balance itself.

You all said, you were fed up with some people. I bet that wouldn't be the case if you had more help in assisting others cause the load wouldn't be so much....Where do u see fault in that???

[John.Michael.Kane]

geokok1981 Taking the number 3000 as you stated all of these users would have to want learn linux(Place Your Fav Distro Here).to be able to help those other users who are having problems. there in it self lies the problem how does one get xyz users who join, and ask one or two or even three questions.in the process get the answers that fixes their issues to return,and begain helping while still learning themselfs.

speaking for myself i wanted to be here,and learn while helping as best i can. you have to take in to account those who will not help but just want help then leave. we as forum members/staff/ect can't force one to help out around here.

as far as being fed up. it's not so much the user but how some users ask for help that can cause aggravation for some forum members.

sidenote: geokok1981 don't give up... your making vaild points,however. these points may not reach all users.

[geokok1981]

thanks SD.....
I was only trying to say something good but I am afraid I got accross the wrong message and caused frustration...
But any argument within people who care for the community can only be for good, right..?;)

[aysiu]

This whole 3000/500 business is a false dichotomy.

I'm by no means an expert user, but I've helped numerous people on these forums, and I did so since the very beginning--even when I knew next to nothing about Ubuntu or Linux.

Everyone is a beginner in some way, and most people are "experts" in some way. Even if you know next to nothing about Ubuntu but learned how to mount your NTFS drive, you can teach someone else how to mount her NTFS drive.

I didn't start off as a beginner who knew nothing and then suddenly become an expert who knows everything.

I started as a beginnner who knew very little, and know I'm a beginner who knows a little more. All along the way, I've helped people, and all of those 3000 people could probably find ways to help each other.

[geokok1981]

aysiu I think u are one of the best examples of users that give back. Many people have benefited from your advice (including myself). No matter how much I want to help it simply is not possible for me to reach the level of support u provide in terms of availability.
However, I think you just gave me the means to express myself better. It's not the skills that we need, but the atitude to help.And that combined with experience (of any degree) could easily balance the system....
So........how do we force that attitude to other people...:rolleyes: lolol?

[aysiu]

Attitudes are hard to force on popular, especially volunteers (i.e., people you don't pay money).

I think we just continue as is. What can you do? If people want to help, they will. If they don't, they won't, and the forum will die. Unless you start offering financial incentives, people will volunteer out of the goodness of their own hearts... or they won't volunteer at all.

It's kind of a crapshoot.

[John.Michael.Kane]

geokok1981 you can't single out one member as the basis for users that give back more or less. who is to say other members here have not contribute just as much time with helping others. We all volunteer are time here. this is not a one member show/forum.


As already said you can't force the i want to help others attitude on those who join here.

[geokok1981]

No no, dont get me wrong. The only reason I mentioned aysiu is because I have seen him answering many threads (as others have) and he was one of the people that helped me with my first questions.
Basically, I mentioned him cause his avatar is quite distinctive and is easy to spot, so I remember more easily.That's all.

Besides, aysiu could do nothing on his own. It is the team that makes things happen here.

I apologise if I have offended people with my comment (it's the cat I tell you....).But I have to point that I did not compare aysui with anyone else in the forum!Just mentioned that I believe he is quite active.....

As for forcing attitudes I was joking aysui. But really now...how can we force it??

why do I always get somebody angry with me??On aprevious post somebody mentioned aysui's contribution and nobody minded....:( I think I am going to get myself kicked/banned for life if I keep talking :mrgreen:

[aysiu]

I say encourage by example. Just go out and help people. When they say "Thanks," say "Pay it forward."

[magnoliablossom]

I think geokok1981 is wrong in his/her description of what the 'Ubuntu Community' has to be in terms of responsiveness and efficiency. The 'Ubuntu Community' (whatever that is) is not a commercial organisation with commercial interests. The so-called 'community' does not have to provide anything to the end users of Ubuntu - they have already provided (and continue to provide updates for) an extraordinary thing, for nothing. What the user does with it is completely up to them. If there are fora, like this one, where people can get help, then once again this is an extraordinary contribution. Without going into the motives of people who offer help on this and other fora, one thing is quite certain to me - there is no obligation on any forum member, or on the forum as a whole, to answer anybody's questions.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want guaranteed support, pay for it. If you want an interesting and free (as in both beer and speech) experience with computers and other users/developers, then stick with the free distributions and enjoy the ride.

I think it's quite arrogant to suggest to a bunch of volunteers, who generally do their best to help as much as they can, that they should up their game and improve their service.


Actually I believe you're wrong in that assessment that this community isn't to offer support....If that were the case, then they should do away with all the help and support catagories and just make it a social board for Ubuntu fanatics to ooo and ahhh over all the points they love about it.

I agree though with the point to request volunteers to up their support. People visit the forums and offer their help at their convenience. They aren't paid to sit here waiting for a question to pop up that they may be able to answer.

Ask me any questions you want about AT&T, I can answer it. For years I worked in their customer service department. I was specifically trained to do so. And I got the same questions day in and day out over and over and over. But that was my job. Here, I'm for the most part out of my league but I am learning and one or two occasions I have actually been able to answer a question here and there.

So I didn't just come here to get the freebie then forget about it when I had what I wanted. I'm just not to a point yet that I can offer very much assistance. I think that's the way it is for a lot of people. I mean I seriously doubt I'm the *only* newbie to Ubuntu that got her system set up and working shipshape that lurks around in the background trying to learn more.

[geokok1981]

Just changed my sig.....hope some people will read it.....[-o<

[aysiu]

I like that sig. Good job, geokok1981.

[Iandefor]

I understand that you guys have problems with many users in the forums,
but once again, that is beside the point here.

It is just like commercial tech support. Those guys in the help desks
(when they know what they r doing that is) have to sit all day and
listen to the most weird and unreasonable demands by people who
most of the times don't even want to to really help themselves. If I choose to help someone, it's out of goodwill, not because I'm getting paid. Heck, I'd happily lurk in the help forums for three hours a day and be as helpful and patient as I could if I knew I was getting something from it. But the fact is, it's a volunteer duty that I do. If someone starts being abusive or rude, I have no obligation to endure their abuse.

Because ubuntu (and linux in general) is on it's way of becoming mainstream (finally!) the critical mass of the users base is going to switch from techies or people who even know basic stuff about their pc's and include more and more of the new breed, the "just complaining" kind. Why would it become mainstream if the "new breed" [whatever that is] can't fix it?

What is going to happen then? I am not saying that the community has to tolerate each and every psycho, but has to be well prepered in replacing the tech support (cause the community IS the only place to go) in terms of efficiency and responsivness. It is vital to realise just how much important the forum role is in promoting Ubuntu and how well organized it needs to be. Actually, you can buy official support packages from Canonical. They cost an arm and a leg, but I bet you could get support pools going (ie, 5 users get together and buy a 5-computer support plan or something).
After all that though, my main question still remains unanswered. How can more people, carrying the knowledge, can be invited to offer their services? Payment usually works well.

What if someone started some kind of company that offered cheap desktop service plans? Maybe $50 for a six-month plan, $75 for a full year? I dunno. Just a thought.

[huygens]

Hello everyone here

I wanted to add to this topic my little idea about the "new users"...

So, Ubuntu is designed for the Human... Well, tough job ;) I think the support is going to be hard as more and more people with no knowledge at all about what a computer is made of will come and ask for help here.
I do not think we shall blame them, of course they will say something like: "when I am playing music, I do not here anything" That's a proper user oriented problem. There is no sound. :???:
Users are not technicians, so one cannot expet them to tell: "The chipset EN765QW of my SoundFX System Ultimate sound card is not properly handled by the Kernel module en765qw_zst."

When you want to design a system for Human, you want to do ergonomics. I am a computer scientist, and though I had a quick introduction on the ergonomics science at the University, I cannot say that I can do ergonomics. Ergonomics is a study in itself and i requires lost of psychological and cognitiv aspects. So, you have to put lots of effort in research before you can say that this way is the most ergonomic way to design this interface. One should always keep in mind that the user interacts only with: a mouse, a keyboard, a display and sound. He does not know about the internals. I mean when you go to the coffee machine, you put your coins in and press the button for an expresso, and you expect a cup to drop and then some black liquid to flow in. If something else happen, you will call the catering support and say: "the coffee machine is broken". ;)

:-k hmmm, it seems I'm a bit off topic, but now I come to the forums. If Human are starting using Ubuntu, of course they will look for help. They have google-ed and they found the forums. Now, they just expect to have an ergonomical service here and get help in a user oriented way so to speak...
So perhaps, to help the forums guru ;) in their task, the Ubuntu developers should perhaps implement some friendly tools that could be launch by a user which would create a file that could then be post to the forum. This file would have many information about the system internals (like hardware, software, drivers, version, etc.) That way, a user can stay a Human and get anyway help. ^_^

Finally, regarding rude post and the sort. It is really hard to reply to them politely. If one feel like he cannot stay polite. Then, perhaps one should not reply and let somebody else do it. At least, he could use the "Report abuse" function to alert the forum staff.
Then, if someone can keep is head cool ;) (I'm not sure, if it is translatable in English that way, I mean if he stays relax) then he should reply politely to the offending post. It will show the example, and perhaps this person will gain some credits from the user. :cool:

Anyhow, I want to cheer you up, because, I am new to these forums (although not to Linux...) and I think they are the best community forums ever! I guess it is all of you guys, going for so long through these forums and making them what they are now! Thanks a lot, actually this is one of the main reason I stayed with Ubuntu!
:D

Huygens

[geokok1981]

I am afraid I have to agree with you...It is indeed one
of the most welcoming communities ;)

Now regarding the tools, well they already exist in their linux
boxes in the form of simple commands such as, lspci, glxinfo, etc..
They just have to know that they r there and use them.

But the truth is that most of the people (like me sometimes) will jump into the forum right away without even looking if there is a simple answer to their problem or what info they need to provide.
And that makes it harder for all.
However I would like to say that, as an other user pointed out, the search isn't always easy to use.I too, get 3-4 pages of crap before I find what I am looking for and that may discourage some from looking.

[aysiu]

er·go·nom·ics Audio pronunciation of "ergonomics" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ûrg-nmks)
n.

1. (used with a sing. verb) The applied science of equipment design, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by reducing operator fatigue and discomfort. Also called biotechnology, human engineering, human factors engineering.
2. (used with a pl. verb) Design factors, as for the workplace, intended to maximize productivity by minimizing operator fatigue and discomfort: The ergonomics of the new office were felt to be optimal. Keyboards can be ergonomic, right? But I've never heard of user interfaces being ergonomic. Is the design of Gnome or KDE inducing fatigue or discomfort?

In any case, these "humans" you're talking about won't be installing operating systems themselves, no matter how easy it becomes, so I think that's a moot point. If you're not willing to deal with the nuts and bolts of a system should something go wrong, don't install an operating system.

For more details, read this:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

[geokok1981]

I think the latest post on "the fridge" may be a good answer to helping users. It says about the classroom, intended for noobs and techies.....Great news!
I just wish the lessons were more frequent...:D

[dpaint4]

I think the latest post on "the fridge" may be a good answer to helping users. It says about the classroom, intended for noobs and techies.....Great news!
I just wish the lessons were more frequent...:D

Perhaps the best and most needed of these lessons could be boiled down and compiled into some type of interactive Ubuntu School CD or support program for later inclusion in the OS.

The currently included "Help" wizard accessible through the System menu is fine, but it dosen't really address the types of things that people are asking about in the forums.

There could be a kind of 'quick and dirty' interactive guide to common issues, and it could be placed somewhere prominent for new users of the OS.

Short attention spans, bad manners, and poorly informed rants are all just par for the course when you're targeting a free operating system to users and telling them that it is 'easy' and 'built for humans'.

Personally, I think Ubuntu is rather easy and built for humans, but the reality is also that it is STILL LINUX. :-?

[geokok1981]

Perhaps the best and most needed of these lessons could be boiled down and compiled into some type of interactive Ubuntu School CD or support program for later inclusion in the OS.

Good idea. What would be even better (maybe i am going too far here though) would be to have some flash vids actually demonstrating the actions on the screen (i have seen quite a few on the web and they were helpful in the sense that..well watching IS better than reading). Wonder if someone can forward your idea to the people that arrange these things...

Personally, I think Ubuntu is rather easy and built for humans, but the reality is also that it is STILL LINUX. :-?

And we love it for that, right?:mrgreen: ........

[huygens]

Keyboards can be ergonomic, right? But I've never heard of user interfaces being ergonomic.
There are a few sort of ergonomics. But they all have the same goal: adapt the machine to the human. In the old time it was meaning adapt the machine to a human with an handicap, so that this person can still use the machine. Nowaday, it means making complex system (including machine) easy to use/understand to every - or the huge majority of - persons.
So doing ergonomics is designing man machine interface (MMI). As you now Gnome for instance is a kind of MMI. Ergonomics sciences do apply.
:)


At present time, if you do not only care about keyboard ergonomics ;) but also about user interface, there are lots of studies including ergonomics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergonomics), cognitive sciences (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_science) and human factors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factor). This is really interesting field and quite new!

Huygens

[aysiu]

Good to know. Thanks for the explanation.

[Tomosaur]

I think if you're talking about ergonomics in computer interfaces, it's more 'proper' to call it 'Human-Centric Design'. I had a module on it as part of my software development course, and we were learning about ergonomic 'type' stuff.

[huygens]

it's more 'proper' to call it 'Human-Centric Design'.

You are probably right, as I am not a native English speaker, I am just translating directly from my own language. So for me, in France it is called "Ergonomie des interfaces" or "interfaces ergonomics"... And the science in which it is part are the "Sciences Cognitives ou Ergonomie Cognitive" or "cognitive sciences or cognitive ergonomics".
If I am refering to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_factor), it seems that in Europe ergonomics is equivalent to human factors once you cross the Atlantic.

Hoewever, the term you mentioned, human-centric design, is another way of saying the same thing. But actually I like it better, because this term in itself is ergonomic ;) I can understand what it means without having to open an encyclopaedia :)

Huygens

[indigoshift]

I think I get the gist of what geokok1981's saying. If I'm way off-base here, though, please accept my apologies. I'm not trying to put words into anyone's mouth.

I think the point of the original post is this: as Ubuntu grows, we're going to be seeing an increasing number of the kind of user who wants it to WORK! RIGHT! NOW!!!

You know, kind of like the Windows users I have to talk to on the phone all day. The ones who don't want to "talk all technical-like! Just fix my damned problem!"

As the userbase for this OS grows, those people will be coming along for the ride. Some of them are here already, but more are undoubtedly on their way.

This creates a problem. Soon, there may be a number of users who end up switching back to whatever OS they had previously, because they felt they couldn't get adequate help. Nevermind the fact that the help was free; nevermind the fact that they really didn't want to meet anyone halfway in getting the issue resolved. Their final opinion of the experience is that no one wanted to help.

I've noticed in my years of Windows tech support that people have some funny definitions of "help". :rolleyes:

So what do we do about it? I wish I knew. When I have them on the phone, I try my best to explain that they need to meet me halfway. I find that telling them, "Look, I'm doing all the work here, you just be my eyes and hands until I get this fixed for you" works most of the time, but not all of the time.

It might not be a bad idea to say something similar to someone who moseys into the forums looking for someone to fix their problem for them. But I doubt this will take care of all these instances.

Blah blah blah. Not sure how (or even if) I was planning to wrap this up, but hey, there you go. ;)

[aysiu]

Agreed, of course, but as you said: So what do we do about it? I wish I knew. If people turn away from Ubuntu because they are lazy and feel entitled to more help but not responsible for providing details or meeting people half-way... well, then they turn away from Ubuntu.

Not much you can do about that.

[indigoshift]

Indeed. The only thing I'm really worried about if that were to happen would be the bad PR due to word-of-mouth.

Well, okay, I'm not really "worried" about it. It just seems like it would be a shame.