PDA

View Full Version : Should "I'm going back to Windows" threads be removed/discouraged/allowed?



MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:11 PM
Theres a large ammount of these "I'm leaving" and "I'm going back to Windows" threads. While Im all for people expressing themselves, in the context of this forum I just dont see what they serve. No usefull info comes from them.

IMO it tends to be who havnt taken the time to read and dont really understand what they have undertaken.

Anyway. Id like to see them stop. Thats my opinion. Everyone else?

Also let me be clear. I'm not heated about this so dont get agressive. Im cool. :)

ComplexNumber
August 10th, 2006, 06:20 PM
i voted for "no". i don't see why they should be discouraged/removed. several reasons:
a) it doesn't break any forum rules
b) members can see the reasons why someone is leaving, and in many cases, point them in the right direction if their reasons to leave are unfounded
c) its good to get a balance in discussion between the things that linux/ubuntu does well and the areas in which it may be weak. sometimes peoples reasons to leave are justified, and it means that someone somewhere may well plug that hole in linux's or ubuntu's functionality.

codejunkie
August 10th, 2006, 06:22 PM
for god's sake yes they should be removed as soon as they are started. because they always end up in a linux sucks, microsofts easier, dont let the door hit you in the *** on the way out 3 day rant that takes attention away from quality threads.

23meg
August 10th, 2006, 06:22 PM
No usefull info comes frome them.Many times people have politely expressed what they didn't like, didn't find suitable for themselves in Ubuntu, as well as listing hardware incompatibility issues and other technical details that made them leave. I believe this can be useful information, and since Ubuntu is an OS with an open development model, there's no point in restricting it; on the contrary, we need this information to make Ubuntu progress faster.

Telling people not to tell us why they didn't find Ubuntu suited to themselves will be against the nature of open source development and will also mean not taking advantage of one of its strongest points at some level: user review and feedback.

I'm not voting because your thread options aren't clear; if I'm voting "Yes", is that for "removed", "discouraged" or "allowed"?

John.Michael.Kane
August 10th, 2006, 06:27 PM
Let those who feel the need to make such threads do so. those who don't like said threads are not obligated to read them.However. when those user's make their return to linx atleast they will know there will those who are willing to help. just as there was those willing to help while they was here.

MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:29 PM
i voted for "no". i don't see why they should be discouraged/removed. several reasons:
a) it doesn't break any forum rules
That is what I would like to see change

b) members can see the reasons why someone is leaving, and in many cases, point them in the right direction if their reasons to leave are unfounded
If they want to be pointed in the right direction (want help) they should ask for help or read more. Not post a "Waa, Linux Sux. Im gone" thread. (How I see 'em anyway) Linux is not for everyone. Nothing to get pissy about. This board owes them nothing. No need to say bye.

c) its good to get a balance in discussion between the things that linux/ubuntu does well and the areas in which it may be weak. sometimes peoples reasons to leave are justified, and it means that someone somewhere may well plug that hole in linux's or ubuntu's functionality.
Im all for a discussion (like us now) but 9/10 times they post "I'm Leaving" and are gone. Lots of small threads taking up space.


I'm not voting because your thread options aren't clear; if I'm voting "Yes", is that for "removed", "discouraged" or "allowed"?
How do I clean that up?

Adamant1988
August 10th, 2006, 06:34 PM
poorly designed poll =\

Anywho, the threads should be allowed for sure... critics make things better no matter how much people hate them. But they SHOULD NOT be allowed to post these in the user testimonials section..

MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:42 PM
poorly designed poll =\

Anywho, the threads should be allowed for sure... critics make things better no matter how much people hate them. But they SHOULD NOT be allowed to post these in the user testimonials section..

Criticism is one thing. These threads are, more ofton than not, not constructive.

Adamant1988
August 10th, 2006, 06:46 PM
They outline a trouble point from that users prespective. That's important to bettering the Operating System so that we can shut up that kind of talk.

These threads can usually be classed in to blatant flame bait and a last cry for help. It has come to people's attention that the best way to get the linux community to prove that linux doesn't suck is to say it does. Every linux geek and fanboy will come a' runnin' tool kit in hand to fix the problem.

IMO the best way to make this behavior less annoying to the general populace is to set aside a place for such threads. That way it is easily ignored and we are able to access the good information we want, without hindering someone elses ability to say what they like.

23meg
August 10th, 2006, 06:48 PM
IMO the best way to make this behavior less annoying to the general populace is to set aside a place for such threads. That way it is easily ignored and we are able to access the good information we want, without hindering someone elses ability to say what they like.We have one: the testimonials section.

Adamant1988
August 10th, 2006, 06:50 PM
The testimonials section is (at least this is what I gathered from the forum description) for SUCCESS STORIES. Not for people to whine and complain about the Ubuntu OS and say they're leaving.

MetalMusicAddict
August 10th, 2006, 06:57 PM
They outline a trouble point from that users prespective. That's important to bettering the Operating System so that we can shut up that kind of talk.
Its never posed as a call for help though. People feel that the best way to get help is to bitch because that might get them help. Squeaky wheel and all. That isnt allowed here.

"I cant do this" "I cant do that" "I'm going back to Windows" are quite often the case. So go. Why do people need to post about leaving? If you need help ASK. Im ALL for helping someone. Just dont bitch to get help.

These threads can usually be classed in to blatant flame bait and a last cry for help. It has come to people's attention that the best way to get the linux community to prove that linux doesn't suck is to say it does. Every linux geek and fanboy will come a' runnin' tool kit in hand to fix the problem.
Like I said above, not the way to get help.

IMO the best way to make this behavior less annoying to the general populace is to set aside a place for such threads. That way it is easily ignored and we are able to access the good information we want, without hindering someone elses ability to say what they like.
Im just not sure what to do but 23meg has an answer.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:07 PM
Testimonials isn't the right place to put "I'm leaving."

We should either have an "I'm leaving" forum (less than ideal) or just make one huge "I'm leaving" megathread (ideal).

I really don't see what people have against megathreads... (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=174298&highlight=megathread) These "goodbye" posts would be perfect candidates!

ComplexNumber
August 10th, 2006, 08:13 PM
We should either have an "I'm leaving" forum (less than ideal) or just make one huge "I'm leaving" megathread (ideal). why not have a 'Ubuntu Feedback' forum instead of a testamonial....where both success stories and 'im leaving' threads can be placed.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:17 PM
why not have a 'Ubuntu Feedback' forum instead of a testamonial....where both success stories and 'im leaving' threads can be placed.
That makes about as much sense as lumping networking and Automatix forums together.

What I've generally found is that testimonials each have their own distinct voice and path. "I'm leaving" whining threads are all generally the same... and thus should all be in the same thread.

In the same vein, people who write testimonials know that other testimonials have been written and just want to add something. These "I'm leaving" folk usually think they're posting something special... when really they're posting anything but special--same old, same old.

ComplexNumber
August 10th, 2006, 08:26 PM
That makes about as much sense as lumping networking and Automatix forums together.
it does make sense. it makes it sound more 'neutral'.

aysiu
August 10th, 2006, 08:28 PM
it does make sense. it makes it sound more 'neutral'.
Sorry. You're right. I misread your post.

Yes, a "feedback forum" would make sense.

dvarsam
August 10th, 2006, 09:41 PM
Hello!

I decided to vote for "other".

Let me clarify why:


In my opinion, it depends on the "attitude" used...

IF the person who says he is going back to Windows, clarifies why he is doing that, and what reasons made him do that (cons & pros of Windows compared to Ubuntu), my answer is "No" (as of: do not delete)

Because:

a. That person might be trying to grab our attention, just to get us to help him, OR

b. He might be proposing a lot of "suggestions", programmers should probably be involved into, to improve things...
(Besides, we all might learn something new from his suggestions...)

However:

IF the person who says he is going back to Windows, does not clarify anything, but just say "i am leaving - plain as that", then my answer is "yes" delete it!

This is a very "delicate" matter & has to be handled very carefully!

We do not want to be "charged" that we are only promoting the "pros" of Ubuntu & not bringing up the "cons"...

Thanks

panickedthumb
August 10th, 2006, 09:55 PM
I agree with dvarsam on this one. If a poster is beliggerant, then perhaps move it into a thread called "leaving Ubuntu" or something like that, to keep them from cluttering things up. If they're offering constructive criticism, then there's an opportunity to take suggestions and help the user get back to where they want to be, and often times you can show them things they've missed and change their minds.

Keep in mind that people get very upset sometimes when things don't go their way, and often times it just takes a couple of level headed comments to show them things they didn't realize and make them happy again. At work, I get calls like this all the time, and it just takes patience.

richbarna
August 10th, 2006, 10:33 PM
Let those who feel the need to make such threads do so. those who don't like said threads are not obligated to read them.However. when those user's make their return to linx atleast they will know there will those who are willing to help. just as there was those willing to help while they was here.

Ditto, I voted "Don't Care".

AllenGG
August 11th, 2006, 05:41 AM
Those persons that have to proclaim " Leeknucks sux" or whatever, should be summarily ignored. The worst kind of trolling !!
I heard about a divorce party given by the last "TROLL", and he asked someone: "now that we is deevorced, is she still ma sistah ? "

:razz:

true_friend
August 12th, 2006, 01:55 AM
they tell the develpors that what is needed in linux by common user. it will help to make linux user friendly as soon as possible. still my friends are waiting that linux is needed to be more userfriendly and it will take a year or more. the user friendliness is increase in the use of GUI and custimezeable and enhanced applications ( specially buitin applications).

aysiu
August 12th, 2006, 03:01 AM
Developers don't read these forums.

What's better than whining on the forums?... making a difference (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

egon spengler
August 12th, 2006, 12:06 PM
Many times people have politely expressed what they didn't like, didn't find suitable for themselves in Ubuntu, as well as listing hardware incompatibility issues and other technical details that made them leave. I believe this can be useful information, and since Ubuntu is an OS with an open development model, there's no point in restricting it; on the contrary, we need this information to make Ubuntu progress faster.

Telling people not to tell us why they didn't find Ubuntu suited to themselves will be against the nature of open source development and will also mean not taking advantage of one of its strongest points at some level: user review and feedback.

Well if that's the case then why do they all get dumped into community chat where nobody who needs to be aware of these issuse will ever see them?

K.Mandla
August 13th, 2006, 03:31 AM
Personally I thought there ought to be an "anti-testimonial" section. The typical going-back-to-Windows rant could be posted there, for everyone to ... ignore.

I can't see removing them or outlawing them. To me, that would be tantamount to censorship, which doesn't strike me as very ubuntu. You should be allowed to disagree -- and say so -- as long as you don't step on the forum rules.

az
August 13th, 2006, 04:40 AM
Developers don't read these forums.

What's better than whining on the forums?... making a difference (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741)

SABDLF wants at least five people from the forums (not necessarily all staff) to attend each developper summit from now on. That is exactly why.

Should there be a rule about not permitting these threads: NO! Such a rule would be a terrible policy, and difficult to enforce properly. It would be terribly desctructive and probably serve very very little benefit - the people who are annoyed by these threads are not obliged to participate in them.

Should there be a rule about moving these threads to one spot or another?: Don't know - Don't care, just dont hide them from me; sometimes they turn 180 degrees and sometimes they reveal real usability issues that need to be addressed.

Implying that these people are too lazy to learn linux is completely the wrong attitude (I.E "IMO it tends to be who havnt taken the time to read and dont really understand what they have undertaken.") It more of a "where can we do better", regardless of wheter the OP is being a jerk or not.

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 04:48 AM
SABDLF wants at least five people from the forums (not necessarily all staff) to attend each developper summit from now on. That is exactly why. Is this a change of policy? So does that mean that people should not use the proper channels for suggesting changes? Whining on the forums... is an acceptable method for improving usability in Ubuntu now?

KiwiNZ
August 13th, 2006, 07:43 AM
People that leave and tell us why give information that can be of use. We should not be shy of critics.
Complaints are a gift and should not be dismissed as whining. I am of the belief that maybe post calling compainents whiners should be removed .

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 07:56 AM
I am of the belief that maybe post calling compainents whiners should be removed . You have the power. Go ahead and remove my posts. I insist on calling complainers whiners, and you're free to disagree with it. You're even free to censor it.

KiwiNZ
August 13th, 2006, 08:04 AM
My line of thought is that calling such members whiners comes under the following section of the rules...
"

Forum Threads and Flaming:
Flaming And Condescending Messages: Messages personally attacking, calling names, or otherwise harassing or being condescending to another forum member or any ethnic or religious group will be removed or moved to "The Backyard" based on the moderators decision."

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 08:07 AM
My line of thought is that calling such members whiners comes under the following section of the rules...
"

Forum Threads and Flaming:
Flaming And Condescending Messages: Messages personally attacking, calling names, or otherwise harassing or being condescending to another forum member or any ethnic or religious group will be removed or moved to "The Backyard" based on the moderators decision."
Well, of course, I don't say directly "You're a whiner" to the people whining... but they are... whining. If whining makes you a whiner, then you're a whiner.

Incidentally, do you feel that this thread (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=78741) in any way violates the forum rules?

I think it's great that a cryptic five-letter abbreviation decided some forum members should be at developer meetings.

Nonetheless, most of these "I'm going back to Windows" threads do not offer constructive criticism. Many are of the "This OS sucks. Why can't I play my MP3s? I can't view Flash 8?" variety. And that's not constructive criticism. It's also not something the developers can do anything about. Ubuntu won't include MP3 support, and that's a policy decision. Flash 8 simply does not exist for Linux, even if the developers wanted to include it.

It's extremely rare for me to see a "suggestion" in a good-bye thread that's something the developers can actually implement in the upcoming release of Ubuntu.

KiwiNZ
August 13th, 2006, 08:52 AM
I like that thread except for the title. Its negative.

Tell me should a Teacher call a student a whiner if they said I can not do Mathmatics and I am not doing it any more?

Would a person who says , this Toyota is horrible I dont want it anymore , are they a whiner?

Is it a matter of interpretation?

bjweeks
August 13th, 2006, 10:52 AM
IMHO this whole idea is stupid and it seems even more stupid when people respond to "I love ubuntu" threads with "OMG I love it too!1!1!" and "You r0ckzor!1! lol!".

az
August 13th, 2006, 02:07 PM
Is this a change of policy?
Yes and no. In that there was formerly no such policy. It is because the forums are under-represented in the Ubuntu developer community.



So does that mean that people should not use the proper channels for suggesting changes? Whining on the forums... is an acceptable method for improving usability in Ubuntu now?

There is nothing wrong with it and that takes nothig away from the proper channels. You need to want to use those channels for them to be successful anyway, and that will never be 100 per cent the case.

I guess a rule prohibiting such threads would leave a bad taste in some people's mouth and the proper channels would be used even less?

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 06:35 PM
I guess a rule prohibiting such threads would leave a bad taste in some people's mouth and the proper channels would be used even less? I've never espoused removing these threads. I do think, though, that they should be all jammed in a megathread or possibly their own subforum.

bruce89
August 13th, 2006, 07:59 PM
It's just desperate souls wanting attention or sympathy, but I voted to discourage it.


Well, of course, I don't say directly "You're a whiner" to the people whining... but they are... whining. If whining makes you a whiner, then you're a whiner.
A bit complex there.


It's extremely rare for me to see a "suggestion" in a good-bye thread that's something the developers can actually implement in the upcoming release of Ubuntu.
They usually just want loads of people saying "Why are you leaving", and asking what can be done to make it better. These "I'm leaving" threads are just ADD tantrums really, best to ignore them, as they want attention.

I don't care if people leave, but I don't want them having the wrong reasons for doing so. Not having MP3 support is not a reason, and flash > v7 too.

nalmeth
August 13th, 2006, 08:14 PM
No, even though it is annoying, and more often than not a waste of time.

It's funny how they cry for help, and threaten to leave if someone doesn't completely fix their problem and do all the work for them. So my response is usually just to ignore, or leave a polite goodbye.

Also, it seems bizarre that the "Testimonials" section is supposed to be only for positive feedback?? A testimony is a testimony..

bruce89
August 13th, 2006, 08:23 PM
Also, it seems bizarre that the "Testimonials" section is supposed to be only for positive feedback?? A testimony is a testimony..

http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=233702

aysiu
August 13th, 2006, 08:51 PM
Also, it seems bizarre that the "Testimonials" section is supposed to be only for positive feedback?? A testimony is a testimony.. A testimonial is positive by definition:
tes·ti·mo·ni·al Audio pronunciation of "testimonial" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tst-mn-l)
n.

1. A statement in support of a particular truth, fact, or claim.
2. A written affirmation of another's character or worth; a personal recommendation.
3. Something given in appreciation of a person's service or achievement; a tribute. testimony and testimonial are not the same word.

der_joachim
August 14th, 2006, 06:22 PM
Hmmm... There is one point of view I have not really seen explicitly. This reeks a bit too much of censoring. Moving off-topic postings to the correct forums is a good policy. Shutting up people generally isn't, even if they are just trolling.

When I got on the internet 12 years ago, I was told not to feed the trolls. They will go away.

I voted No. But that was obvious.

aysiu
August 14th, 2006, 06:40 PM
I don't think many people have endorsed deleting these posts altogether. Most have expressed an interest in either clumping them together in some way or leaving them as is.

Emerzen
August 14th, 2006, 06:59 PM
Yes:

1. They take up space and time that could be devoted to allowing the support community to educate and help those of us who need it.

2. Except the backyard.

In some cases you could argue that it's a way to spread the word about what the problems are and what could be worked on. But, a community support forum is not the place to do this. Maybe a link that redirects to file a bug or to the backyard, something like that.

Kilz
August 14th, 2006, 07:11 PM
The "I'm leaving " threads are a waste of time. The poster will leave anyway. They are not interested in fixing anything. But rationalizing the act of leaving. In doing so they may convince others that the faulty reasons are good ones. For the most part removing them will do no good as the person will re post them in some cases. Moving them is a great idea, especially if they are in the beginners section. In that section they do way more harm than any perceived good.

az
August 15th, 2006, 02:52 AM
Hmmm... There is one point of view I have not really seen explicitly. This reeks a bit too much of censoring. Moving off-topic postings to the correct forums is a good policy. Shutting up people generally isn't, even if they are just trolling.

When I got on the internet 12 years ago, I was told not to feed the trolls. They will go away.

I voted No. But that was obvious.

Ah! How about a strong policy about how seasoned forum members should handle such threads?

Example:

Do:
1- ignore it
2- try to identify potential issues and help fix them
3- offer encouragement or sympathy, a reason why the software is not (yet) perfect?

Don't
1- Troll back
2- Insult
3- Add fuel to the fire

manicka
August 15th, 2006, 03:19 AM
How the heck can I choose a poll answer to that question?

'Should "I'm going back to Windows" threads be removed/discouraged/allowed?'

If I answer yes it could have any one of 3 different meanings.
---

IMHO threads like these that rubbish any distro should be moved to the backyard when they get out of hand, as they inevitably do. Negative discussion of any distro/OS gets us nowhere.

der_joachim
August 15th, 2006, 06:18 PM
Ah! How about a strong policy about how seasoned forum members should handle such threads?

Example:

Do:
1- ignore it
2- try to identify potential issues and help fix them
3- offer encouragement or sympathy, a reason why the software is not (yet) perfect?

Don't
1- Troll back
2- Insult
3- Add fuel to the fire

Why would we try to enforce such a policy anyway? This forum is already excellent without it. I really do not care about them for many obvious reasons already mentioned in this thread. Even MetalMusicAddict (who started the thread) admitted that he was not really bothered. I'd rather divert my attention to the people who make some effort describing the problem or who are at least being polite.

dvarsam
August 18th, 2006, 12:55 AM
Dear "aysiu",


Developers don't read these Forums

The above statement, is a "fact"!

Unfortunately, on a poll created in this Forum, most Ubuntu users, claim that they make their Ubuntu improvement suggestions inside these Forums...

So, basically, if we "all" want our Ubuntu to improve, we definately need some people informing the Developers/Programmers with Improvement suggestions/needs coming out from these Forums!!!

Otherwise, all improvement suggestions posted here are all "doomed"...

---------------------------

Dear "azz",


SABDLF wants at least five people from the forums (not necessarily all staff) to attend each developper summit from now on.
That is exactly why.

This is a very good idea!

However, I hope that these 5 representatives do their "jobs" right...!!!


Should there be a rule about not permitting these threads: NO! Such a rule would be a terrible policy, and difficult to enforce properly. It would be terribly desctructive and probably serve very very little benefit - the people who are annoyed by these threads are not obliged to participate in them.

I agree with you!
Improvement threads/posts must be permitted!


Should there be a rule about moving these threads to one spot or another?: Don't know - Don't care, just dont hide them from me; sometimes they turn 180 degrees and sometimes they reveal real usability issues that need to be addressed.

Implying that these people are too lazy to learn linux is completely the wrong attitude (I.E "IMO it tends to be who havnt taken the time to read and dont really understand what they have undertaken.") It more of a "where can we do better", regardless of wheter the OP is being a jerk or not.

I agree!

Lately, another "idea" struck my mind!

Which is the following:


IF [u]99%/u] of Ubuntu Developers/Programmers out there are working on a non-paid basis, this means that what they are suggesting the Ubuntu Management for improvement for the newer versions of Ubuntu, is basically what they "personally" want OR willing to work on... (by sacrificing their free time)...

The above is totally contradicting to the actual improvements NEEDED on the Ubuntu Software...

And not only that, but at the same time, the Management of Ubuntu Software is reluctant to say NO to these suggestions because, the Management is NOT really paying for these improvements, by any means...

And, based on the fact that there is a 1% chance of these projects to turn out to be good..., the Management has nothing to loose by approving those projects from starting up...

Conclusion:

The Management of the Ubuntu project is focusing at 99% of the time on the wrong direction!!!
The focus is shifted from the "True Needs" of Ubuntu development, to the "What I would prefer to work on Freely", from the Developers/Programmers side!!!

The above could mean:

IT COULD TAKE MANY MANY YEARS FOR UBUNTU TO BECOME A LEADING OS!!!

Thanks.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 01:35 AM
"I'm going back to Windows" threads are not usually full of constructive criticism, unfortunately, dvarsam.

Yes, I believe what the forum members agree upon collectively should be brought through the proper channels so that developers can see what will genuinely improve the Ubuntu user experience. I don't agree that that has anything to do with threads whining about how "Linux isn't ready" because it didn't automatically detect my ___________ and I "had to" put in a terminal command to fix it.

Those "suggestions" don't do anything to improve Ubuntu.

And I also think it has nothing to do with Ubuntu "becom[ing] a leading OS." Read more here:
http://www.psychocats.net/essays/linuxdesktopmyth

egon spengler
August 18th, 2006, 02:58 PM
Well the consensus seems to be that these sort of threads are a valuble resource that enriches the development of ubuntu. In light of that, and I know I've already made this point but please, can the mods stop kicking them over to community cafe?

To me it seems that they get booted there because the mods view them as nothing but clutter on the "real" forums. If they really are that important then surely they should stay in "Desktop Support" or where ever it is that they get posted. I mean, if they offer important feedback that's closer to support then general chat isn't it?

Bragador
August 18th, 2006, 03:03 PM
That poll is completely flawed.

The answers don't match the question and thus nobody should pay attention to the results.

The author should create ONE question if he wants to use yes no answers.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 04:13 PM
I don't know if that's the general consensus, but I certainly don't agree they're valuable. And they're not desktop support--they're discussion.

Is it possible that some valuable discusssion might come out of these threads that eventually leads to real change? Sure. But that still doesn't make them desktop support--they belong in the Ubuntu Cafe.

zxee
August 18th, 2006, 04:22 PM
poorly designed poll =\

Anywho, the threads should be allowed for sure... critics make things better no matter how much people hate them. But they SHOULD NOT be allowed to post these in the user testimonials section..

I agree sort of. That is I think allowing critcism or even encouraging it is a positive thing. But I don't think the correct place for it is on, for instance, the absolute beginner forum.
There's a thread/post this morning about why linux won't take over the desktop http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=238877
The OP couldn't install flash. Using that as an example I personally don't see it as constuctive-although plenty of the responses tried to help with installing flash.
Actually I rechecked the thread and it's become kind of humorous-but I don't know if it helps the stated intended audience i.e absolute beginners.
But then how would those running this forum deal with such threads? Freedom is messy, but the alternative can be even messier. :)

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 04:29 PM
You're not restricting people's freedom by proposing threads of a certain type get their own subforum or get merged into one megathread.

MetalMusicAddict
August 18th, 2006, 04:49 PM
That poll is completely flawed.

The answers don't match the question and thus nobody should pay attention to the results.

The author should create ONE question if he wants to use yes no answers.

If you actually read the thread you would see that Ive asked how to change it a couple of times already. No answers. ;) Honestly, I dont care anymore.

zxee
August 18th, 2006, 04:51 PM
I'm re-thinking what I posted earlier and it does seem reasonable to re-direct these opinion posts to someplace.
Doesn't that also give the appearance of shuffling them off to no mans land?
I think I care about this community, and the forums here actually don't behave like a lot of others. All those who visit here get to see how we conduct ourselves. Of course there's no way of getting everyone into lock step-we often disagree about many things.
I'm saying that this is an opportunity perhaps to be less reactive. I admit I can be reactive to the kinds of posts we're discussing. However a better response might be something like "Sorry you're having that experiance. If you want help people here will try and help you. If you want to make a complaint we have a place for that here <provide link>."
Something along those lines. I'm just suggesting a way to defuse these sometimes flammable threads, and also show that the community can come up with a better response to conflict and criticism.

Bragador
August 18th, 2006, 04:53 PM
Oh well I didn't bother to read the whole thread since I thought the poll didn't make sense.

I'm relieved you tried to change it though.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 04:54 PM
I'm saying that this is an opportunity perhaps to be less reactive. I admit I can be reactive to the kinds of posts we're discussing. However a better response might be something like "Sorry you're having that experiance. If you want help people here will try and help you. If you want to make a complaint we have a place for that here <provide link>." That's a great suggestion, and some people actually do say things like that. Unfortunately, you don't have any control over people's reactions any more than you have control over the person posting the whining thread in the first place.

So one or two people saying "Sorry it's not working for you. Maybe we can help if you post a support question" usually gets lost in a shuffle of other more inflammatory posts.

Kilz
August 18th, 2006, 05:44 PM
I'm re-thinking what I posted earlier and it does seem reasonable to re-direct these opinion posts to someplace.
Doesn't that also give the appearance of shuffling them off to no mans land?
I think I care about this community, and the forums here actually don't behave like a lot of others. All those who visit here get to see how we conduct ourselves. Of course there's no way of getting everyone into lock step-we often disagree about many things.
I'm saying that this is an opportunity perhaps to be less reactive. I admit I can be reactive to the kinds of posts we're discussing. However a better response might be something like "Sorry you're having that experiance. If you want help people here will try and help you. If you want to make a complaint we have a place for that here <provide link>."
Something along those lines. I'm just suggesting a way to defuse these sometimes flammable threads, and also show that the community can come up with a better response to conflict and criticism.


IMHO when these threads are in the Absolute Beginners section they do vastly more harm than good. I just have a feeling that a beginner or someone looking into Ubuntu for the first time isn't going to remember the ""Sorry you're having that experience. If you want help people here will try and help you. If you want to make a complaint we have a place for that here <provide link>."" post. But the FUD and negativity the I'm going back to Windows post is bound to be full of. Especially if the nice reply is at the bottom of the page, or on the 3rd page. They may not read that far. In this case we may lose more people than we gain, especially if the I'm leaving" poster leaves.

panickedthumb
August 18th, 2006, 09:27 PM
If someone wants to come up with a real proposal out of this and submit it, I think that would actually get something done and could help out the forums. As it is, it seems to be the same points being rehashed over and over again, which isn't really getting us anywhere. If you have a worked up proposal, then it gives people something to look back on.

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 09:37 PM
I have five proposals:

Proposal 1 - Create a megathread called "Goodbye, Ubuntu!" for all those goodbye threads. If actually useful suggestions come up (which they rarely do), extract those posts and put them in the "Suggestions for Edgy" thread or "Suggestions for Edgy+1."

Proposal 2 - Create a subforum called "Farewells," which can have both "goodbye, I'm going back to Windows" threads and "I'm just leaving these forums because..." threads. Dump all the goodbye threads in there, whether they're amicable goodbyes or not.

Proposal 3 - Automatically dump all goodbye threads in the Ubuntu Cafe. If they're particularly inflammatory, dump them in the backyard. If they're utterly offensive, they get closed. I think this is what happens now more or less.

Proposal 4 - Just close them right away. If someone's really saying goodbye for real, why should there be a discussion about it? And if it's not for real, she should start a separate support or suggestions thread elsewhere.

Proposal 5 - Move these threads to the jail or delete them.

I would be in favor of 1, 2, 4, and 3--in that order. I'm against 5, but I just put it out there.

panickedthumb
August 18th, 2006, 09:45 PM
Proposal 6: change Testimonials into Feedback or User Experiences and have the good stories and the bad right next to each other.

So adding this onto your proposal list, aysiu, my favor would go:
6, 2, 1, 3, 4, 5

aysiu
August 18th, 2006, 09:48 PM
Right--I forgot about 6. Thanks for throwing that in.

zxee
August 18th, 2006, 11:02 PM
I would like to propose that baiting or responding in kind to argumentive and or angry posts are clearly disallowed. (Maybe it's already policy-but not clearly presented?)
Responding this way just prolongs the flaming and increases the thread length with no noticibly worthwhile result.
Perhaps some people feel that they need to defend Ubuntu's reputation, but there are places here to have those discussions.
Which brings me to my second and final proposal. (the golden rule I guess)
A notice to those posting that defamatory comments are not allowed in the help sections or a least certain help sections.
The golden rule because we can't slam them but they don't slam us except in so designated forums.

panickedthumb
August 19th, 2006, 03:02 AM
With MetalMusicAddict's blessing, I'm closing this thread and starting a new one, with the poll as what aysiu and I came up with, in hopes to get some better discussion flowing. I'll have that up momentarily.