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dataw0lf
March 28th, 2005, 07:23 AM
By general request, I've included a poll to get response on what everyone's favorite programming language is.

toojays
March 28th, 2005, 10:00 AM
There are no LISPs in the poll!

Scheme is my favourite language, but that's probably because I have not yet used it on a real project. :)

vague-
March 31st, 2005, 11:57 AM
There are no LISPs in the poll!

Scheme is my favourite language, but that's probably because I have not yet used it on a real project. :)

Same here. Especially SISC <http://sisc.sourceforge.net/> for it's excellent Java FFI.

davahmet
April 1st, 2005, 03:14 PM
It depends on the context. You have to know the problem domain before you can use an implementation language effectively. For example, if I am buidling low-level firmware, then C and C++ are my favorites. If I am working on high level web-based or text processing apps, then PERL is the easiest for me. If its requirements gathering and analysis, then UML fits like a treat. And for rapid dev and prototyping, Python comes to mind as an obvious choice.

No programming language is appropiate for all situations, but some are appropiate for none.

-Rick-
April 1st, 2005, 05:07 PM
C++, after that pascal :)

jayded
April 1st, 2005, 05:20 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully =;


C++, after that pascal :)

-Rick-
April 1st, 2005, 06:05 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully =;
Me neither :)
Only used it to mess around in the old DOS days ;-)

pdamoc
April 1st, 2005, 06:12 PM
Delphi is Pascal evolved and my favorite file manager "Total Commander" is written in Delphi.

vague-
April 2nd, 2005, 08:25 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully =;


TeX? I am sure that is Pascal. Though, I suppose it is not directly, due to literate programming over the top ("WEB").

IdoMcFly
April 3rd, 2005, 01:06 AM
Ada

CrashTECH
April 6th, 2005, 04:20 PM
My favorite is C++ mainly becuase that is what I learned on, and what I know the most about. I have done some 'limited' work in some other languages, but hardly enough to know enough about them to call them a favorite.

HungSquirrel
April 6th, 2005, 05:40 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully =;
Tux Commander (http://tuxcmd.sourceforge.net)

The language I know the most extensively is Java. At first I hated it (I was taking it as a class), but it kind of grew on me.

dataw0lf
April 7th, 2005, 03:46 AM
At first I hated it (I was taking it as a class), but it kind of grew on me.
... and it's poking out of your neck! AAAAAaaaaaaaghhhh...

HungSquirrel
April 7th, 2005, 04:17 AM
Java == goiter;

TjaBBe
April 7th, 2005, 01:45 PM
I voted C++, but I want to learn Perl and Python soon, when I find the time...

JmSchanck
April 8th, 2005, 05:19 AM
Out of the ones up there I know Python, PHP, Java, and C++, and I'm gonna have to go with Python as my favorite. I can't say that I've used it on a big project so i dont know how good it is in that aspect (hell, I cant say I've used anything on a big project im a high school student with major time restrictions), but for personal use python is great. I think this for two reasons, one being that if I just want to try something out real quick I can open the python interperator in 5 seconds flat, and the other is that I really like the little bits of syntactic sugar such as list comprehensions which make life oh so easy.

Jad
April 8th, 2005, 09:15 AM
php!

Glanz
April 14th, 2005, 11:58 AM
I prefer RUBY over all the others. I find it very 'zen', simple to use. I have seen 700 line C-coded stuff than can be reduced to 400 lines using Ruby.

Has anyone considered considered coding a few Ruby-based applications for Ubuntu? -- maybe even a Web Browser (http://ruby-gnome2.sourceforge.jp/hiki.cgi?RubyGecko)

locutus24
April 19th, 2005, 05:45 AM
Why is python considered so good, im not much of a programmer although i have been considering giving it a whack.

ionos
April 19th, 2005, 06:55 AM
Eiffel & OCaml - GO INRIA GO!

Quest-Master
April 20th, 2005, 02:02 AM
Why is python considered so good

The short development time, high readability, fantastic syntax, good use of object-orientation, and simply put: a language you can code in without getting the feeling to break your computer. :)

ZiZe
April 20th, 2005, 07:06 PM
Php is the language i prefer, but i only have perl to compare it to atm.

Seth
April 20th, 2005, 07:15 PM
Mmmmm PHP. Mmmmmm loose typing.

For all you C++ and Java people:

$var = 3;
$var = "haha";

w00t. ;-)

paul cooke
April 20th, 2005, 08:15 PM
what the heck happened to Basic then??? don't knock it... it's perfectly good if you pick a good modern object oriented version. I cut my "programming" teeth back in the early 70's using Dartmouth basic over a 300 baud teletype link... Sinclair's QL Superbasic was way ahead of it's time when I was using it in 84... Microsoft has got a lot to answer for in their bastard dialects of Basic... they are the ones to blame for Basic's bad reputation...

Try GamBAS... you'll be amazed at how modern it is...

skoal
April 20th, 2005, 09:32 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully

I used to develop software for Insurance companies using Pascal, then Delphi, 10 years ago. If you want a low low car rate or home owner's policy, just pm me and I'll give you all the dirty little secrets.

WRT to the poll, when I'm in my car, I brake for perl users. I'm migrating to python and actually prefer it now. Just wish there were some sort of CPAN equivalent.

Se7EnNi9E
April 21st, 2005, 03:19 PM
I like the C.

But I want to learn the C++ and Assembly.

Assembly is necessary in embedded system.

dataw0lf
April 21st, 2005, 03:40 PM
Why is python considered so good, im not much of a programmer although i have been considering giving it a whack.

Python is a strange language for already experienced programmers to pick up. I remember when I first started: the enforced white space/indentation threw me off, as well as all these Python guys calling a hash a 'dictionary'. However, once you get used to Python, you can code faster, cleaner, and just plain better than in any other language.

m1thrand1r
April 21st, 2005, 06:10 PM
Have to say C. I also like C# and .NET (including mono), just used it for a project and it provided some awesome functionality.

norfenstein
April 23rd, 2005, 03:19 AM
I like D (http://www.digitalmars.com/d/), but it's not really usable for most purposes yet.

escuchamezz
April 23rd, 2005, 03:23 AM
I like C++, Java (although it's slow and SWING is incredibly ugly) and Delphi (dudes pascal rox your sox!!!).
Gonna try out Mono soon :-)

SGC
April 23rd, 2005, 03:47 AM
I like PHP especially when it used with flash actionscript.

Anthony
April 23rd, 2005, 11:43 PM
There are no LISPs in the poll!

Scheme is my favourite language, but that's probably because I have not yet used it on a real project. :)

My sentiments exactly. My favourite actress is Audrey Hepburn, but I never met her. ;-) Looking at real coding I have done, it is either dictated or expedient. Wildly inaccurate estimated lines written in career:-

Pascal - 25,000; FORTRAN 60 - 8,000; COBOL - 250,000; System/370 Assembler 3,000; FOCUS 30,000; sh 5,000; Perl 15,000; PHP 9,000; C 3,000; LISP/Scheme/Emacs-LISP 2,000; Java 50;

I guess the above reflects my career, going from student to programmer to syadmin.

atoponce
May 4th, 2005, 03:49 AM
By general request, I've included a poll to get response on what everyone's favorite programming language is.
C++ fits like a charm for just about anything I need done. While there may be other tools that get the job done more effectively, C++ just works.

Topper
May 5th, 2005, 05:05 AM
I went for Python - mainly because that's the one I'm learning right now. So far, I like it a lot.

And a couple of days ago, I solved my first 'real' problem with Python. One of my friends is studying mathematics and he asked us this statistics puzzle:

You're on a game show and you have the choice between three doors. Two of the doors are empty and one contain a gazillion dollars(more or less, that is ;)). You then choose a door. Afterwards, one of the doors you didn't choose is removed, and removed doors don't contain prizes. You are then offered to choose beween the two remaining doors.

The gazillion dollar question now is: Does it matter which door you choose or do both offer equal chances of winning?

Anyways, it really was a piece of cake programming it, even though I'm a total programming newbie. So, two thumbs up for Python :)

Anyone who wants to check out a python program is welcome to take a lok at the program I made. Comments welcome too :D

BTW, the answer is that you should always switch door.

Anthony
May 5th, 2005, 10:38 AM
The Monty Hall "paradox"

Topper
May 5th, 2005, 01:22 PM
Yeah, paradox is a good description. We were four of us, and noone could belive that it did matter which door you choose.

I didn't understand the mechanisms untill I inspected the code, so you could say that the Monty Hall Paradox has taught me to program(a litle bit), and programming taught me about the Monty Hall Paradox :-D

niney
May 11th, 2005, 05:23 AM
Mmmmm PHP. Mmmmmm loose typing.

For all you C++ and Java people:

$var = 3;
$var = "haha";

w00t. ;-)

you can do this in java too.



Object var;
var = 3;
var = "haha";


It works because 3 is converted to new Integer(3) (in Java 5 that is).
Not that I'm not saying this is a good thing to do in Java, but you can do it.

I'm a PHP/Perl fan myself.

Rodrigo
May 11th, 2005, 09:50 PM
Im a delphi/kylix lover, and perl too :wink:

Mike Buksas
May 14th, 2005, 08:58 PM
I went with Python also, even though I do probably 20 times as much in C++. Python is very "developer oriented". It makes lots of little things easy, so you can get on to thinking about bigger problems. It is also really good at letting you build small programs to solve problems quickly, and then evolving them into full-fledge applications gracefully.

I find that for tasks where I could use both, I'm about 5 times as productive in Python as C++. Of course not all languages are good for all tasks, but where Python works, it works really, really well.

alive
May 25th, 2005, 04:06 AM
My unsolicited thoughts:

I don't like Python because I was confused by deep/shallow copying when trying to use it -- it seemed entirely counterintuitive what was or wasn't a reference.

I don't like Perl because the language seems to have entirely no rules, only special cases. I have nonetheless used Perl for a lot of quick hacks, but they always turned out not to be as quick as expected, and to require many trips back and forth between the PC and the camel book.

PHP is okay for web scripts, but I don't think anyone would seriously use it for anything else. It's obviously found its niche and is staying there. Besides, although I do like the fact that PHP has a comprehensive manual online, it seems hard to program much of anything without constantly referring to said manual.

Ruby and Scheme seem cool, but I don't like interpreted languages in general, because they are a lot slower and more memory-hungry than compiled programs. If you think this doesn't matter, go to a 449 MHz computer with 128 MB of RAM, and try to run the programs you normally use. Even native code is too bloated.

C++ is so complicated and inelegant I've been scared to really get into it. It seems like even to write something trivial, I have to know all of the obscure features of the language, or I'll do it wrong. It's like you have to be an expert at C++ before you can learn C++. Because the language is constantly criticized, and a lot of what's written in it is horrible, I don't feel there is anything paranoid about this concern.

I like C because it doesn't have any of the above problems.

Gsibbery
May 27th, 2005, 01:04 PM
On my own projects, I mainly use Common LISP or C. At work, usually C++ or Java.

warfly
May 31st, 2005, 03:24 AM
I think Eclipse RCP + VE + GCJ Plugin will be the killer combination for desktop application development. There're still many rough edges on the road, but it's already viable (maybe except GCJ part) and have big momentum.

Things like Maven, Hibernate, Spring, RCP are what made me stick to Java programming language. Java has very weak presence in desktop due to some inherent limitation of Swing/AWT and difficulty in packaging, but with RCP/SWT or Java-GNOME, GCJ coming up, it will be more widely used very soon.

clayasaurus
June 5th, 2005, 07:10 AM
The D programming language. http://www.digitalmars.com/d

1337sithlord
June 6th, 2005, 04:06 AM
:( what about basic? Lol i just got into the programming world by taking it in school. I learned visual basic (dam microsoft) but im assuming the basic language is pretty much the same. I loved the course and il continue it cause i got a 99 w00t. Anyway, soon il learn one of the above languages and it will become my favourite given that those are much better than basic. Turing is also good too. Its soo limited but is good for making ur own perihperals. Get it for free by looking around or buy from holt software. (i dont know if it works on ubuntu :\)

thumper
June 6th, 2005, 11:20 AM
My unsolicited thoughts:
C++ is so complicated and inelegant I've been scared to really get into it. It seems like even to write something trivial, I have to know all of the obscure features of the language, or I'll do it wrong. It's like you have to be an expert at C++ before you can learn C++. Because the language is constantly criticized, and a lot of what's written in it is horrible, I don't feel there is anything paranoid about this concern.
I think all languages are constantly criticized.

C++ is my system language of choice (python being scripting choice). You don't have to be an expert to start C++, but it does help to get the right books. There are a huge amount of bad C++ books out there, many trying to teach C before C++ (which is not the right way to go).

One of the best starting C++ books I have come across is Accelerated C++ by Andrew Koenig and Barbra Moo. This book teaches modern C++ (ISO C++) rather than most of the C with extras type books.

geearf
June 6th, 2005, 05:18 PM
For me php is very easy to use, no head aches at all with bad memory or anything, so i love it, even if it's not the most powerfull language out there.

I also like perl, but i only tried it for a few weeks, never done anything great with it so i cannot tell much.

For the rest go C/C#/C++ or java and the pain that comes with it :)

lurah
June 7th, 2005, 05:29 PM
Well, im old qber so FreeBasic (http://www.freebasic.net) is my language when i want to do something. :roll:
Pascal is great too but havent learned it much yet. Also ada is interesting.

alive
June 11th, 2005, 05:58 AM
I think all languages are constantly criticized.
I rarely see anyone badmouthing Ruby or Python. Even C is liked by many people, though it gets bad press for all the buffer overflow traps one can fall into when using it. In contrast:

I invented the term "Object-Oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
- Alan Kay

In a 100 years C++ will be remembered as one of humanity's biggest mistakes.
- Miguel de Icaza, private communication

Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out.
- Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++

Plus there are three prominent attempts to make a better object-oriented C: Java, C#, and D. (Note that Kay also disapproves of Java.)


C++ is my system language of choice (python being scripting choice). You don't have to be an expert to start C++, but it does help to get the right books. There are a huge amount of bad C++ books out there, many trying to teach C before C++ (which is not the right way to go).
Unfortunately, I learned C first. And whenever I try to learn C++, I can't help but say "This is stupid and worse than C!" Overloading the bit-shift operator for input and output, for instance, was a particularly stupid idea, and it's one of the first things you learn.

I checked out D briefly and liked it a lot; but unfortunately the compilers are not there yet. When I can get a mature gdc through apt-get I may give the language another look.


One of the best starting C++ books I have come across is Accelerated C++ by Andrew Koenig and Barbra Moo. This book teaches modern C++ (ISO C++) rather than most of the C with extras type books.
Thanks, I may investigate that.

Mike Buksas
June 11th, 2005, 05:37 PM
I rarely see anyone badmouthing Ruby or Python. Even C is liked by many people, though it gets bad press for all the buffer overflow traps one can fall into when using it. In contrast:

I invented the term "Object-Oriented", and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind.
- Alan Kay

In a 100 years C++ will be remembered as one of humanity's biggest mistakes.
- Miguel de Icaza, private communication

Within C++, there is a much smaller and cleaner language struggling to get out.
- Bjarne Stroustrup, The Design and Evolution of C++

Plus there are three prominent attempts to make a better object-oriented C: Java, C#, and D. (Note that Kay also disapproves of Java.)


Unfortunately, I learned C first. And whenever I try to learn C++, I can't help but say "This is stupid and worse than C!" Overloading the bit-shift operator for input and output, for instance, was a particularly stupid idea, and it's one of the first things you learn.

I checked out D briefly and liked it a lot; but unfortunately the compilers are not there yet. When I can get a mature gdc through apt-get I may give the language another look.


Thanks, I may investigate that.
I can second the reccomendation for Accelerated C++. It helped me fill a lot of gaps in my C++ knowledge. Skipping C when teaching C++ is the correct way to do it, IMHO.

I've been using C++ professionally for almost 10 years now, and I have to agree with some of criticisms leveled at it. (I don't know about humanitiy's biggest mistake though). I think that we forgive a lot of C++'s sins because it is so well supported, easy to integrate with C, and extremely powerful. The ability to mix dynamic and static polymorphism (inheritance and templates), for example, enables a lot of very elegant code.

Another OO approach to C is objective-C, and might be worth a look. I beleive that it is supported by the gnu compiler family. Haven't worked with it much, but many people seem to consider it a much cleaner and simpler language than C++.

wien
June 12th, 2005, 02:28 AM
I rarely see anyone badmouthing Ruby or Python.Well... "There are only two kinds of programming languages: those people always bitch about, and those nobody uses." - Bjarne Stroustrup

:-P

LordHunter317
June 12th, 2005, 03:29 AM
high readability,It's perfectly possible to write nasty, unreadable Python though it's somewhat rare to see.


fantastic syntax,This is very subjective and a lot of people disagree. I don't like having my formatting choices forced on me.


good use of object-orientation,I don't buy this. Smalltalk-based OOP is very different from Simula OOP (which is what C++, Java, C# are based on). I'm not a python expert, but I'm not comfortable with it's (apparent) limitations.


you can do this in java too.

Object var;
var = 3;
var = "haha";No, you can't. What this is doing is really this:
Object var;
var = new Integer(3);
var = new String("Haha");What you've done is just point a pointer to a different object. The PHP code is different -- it lets you change types without losing the type information (it's preserved). This Java code loses the type information, so it's not the same thing, albiet a similar concept.


I don't like Python because I was confused by deep/shallow copying when trying to use it -- it seemed entirely counterintuitive what was or wasn't a reference.Most OOP languages have this issue. Some languages obscure some of the details, but you eventually have to deal with the issue when you allow for copying or assignment.


Plus there are three prominent attempts to make a better object-oriented C: Java, C#, and D. (Note that Kay also disapproves of Java.)Java is not a better OOP language than C++. The mental retardation present in the API eliminates any benefits the language itself would have, and the language has several fundamentally crippling design decisons. And, the latest rendition (Java 5) has simply added more crippling for it's new features (Yes, I'm speaking specific of the generics braindamage).

C# rectifies many of Java's fundamental flaws, except where they inherited API braindamage (e.g., collections).


Overloading the bit-shift operator for input and output, for instance, was a particularly stupid idea, and it's one of the first things you learn.Well, why I don't like the idea of an operator having a different meaning in different contexts, I actually think this isn't a bad idea. For an example of when this is a bad idea, look at where C# overrides ==. Classes that do that make it impossible to do reference comparsions, which is a serious limitation.

Anyway, it's not like bit-shifiting makes sense in an I/O context. And I don't think the contexts are particularly hard to differentiate or confuse. So while I don't think it's optimal, I think it's a reasonable compromise. It also doesn't remove any ability either, unlike the case in C#.


Java has very weak presence in desktop due to some inherent limitation of Swing/AWT and difficulty in packaging, but with RCP/SWT or Java-GNOME, GCJ coming up, it will be more widely used very soon.No, it won't, except for developer applications for people developing in Java. There's no attractive reason to use Java on the desktop, nor will there ever be. I know you and I have discussed this before, but I felt the need to reiterate it ;)

LordHunter317
June 12th, 2005, 03:34 AM
And to stay on topic, I use whatever language is right for the task at hand.
Languages I know fluently include C, C++, Java, C#, PHP, sh, and DCL. I can fake FORTRAN, perl and maybe one or two others

SteExp
June 12th, 2005, 06:22 PM
i prefore php language :)

alive
June 15th, 2005, 02:18 AM
Re: the quote about there being two types of languages, those everyone complains about and those nobody uses. Lots of people use Ruby and Python. Perhaps fewer people have to use those languages for work/school, and that may be the real issue. Perhaps few people are forced to use those languages (the way that many GUI toolkits require C++ for example). But people definitely use those languages.

If I had used Scheme as an example, you would have had a point.

wien
June 15th, 2005, 07:25 AM
Re: the quote about there being two types of languages, those everyone complains about and those nobody uses. Lots of people use Ruby and Python. Perhaps fewer people have to use those languages for work/school, and that may be the real issue. Perhaps few people are forced to use those languages (the way that many GUI toolkits require C++ for example). But people definitely use those languages.

If I had used Scheme as an example, you would have had a point.
Yes of course. The quote just fit so fantasticly well given the context, I just had to post it. :)

student
June 16th, 2005, 12:34 PM
I know none of you are gonna take me serious on this,
but my favourite language up to this point is VB.NET :-|
and plz dont think this is the only one I know ;-)

silent-red
June 17th, 2005, 05:45 AM
Just dumped VB months ago, then shifted with Java... installed my first (Ubuntu) Linux box then I'm now studying python... I think its an interesting language.

LaserJock
June 19th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Hi all!
Well, I have to say that my favorite programming language right now is Fortran, mostly because I now how to use it the best. I am a PhD Chemistry student and all my boss every uses is Fortran 77 and C and so that is what I usually use. Of course you have to realize that he also thinks FVWM+emacs are the only essential tools on a linux box :roll: . He gets all upset if I'm using Gnome or KDE ("What, are you using Windows?" [-X )
Anyway, I was actually wondering if any of you guys that have scientific computing experience have any suggestions for languages. I mean, Fortran has been fun, but I don't know if there is a more modern replacement. Everybody seems to be lovin' Python. Would you suggest Python for scientific programming?

Thanks

LaserJock

GuyveR800
June 19th, 2005, 10:13 PM
I know quite a few high-level languages, but my absolute favorite language is: Z80 assembly ^_^

Mike Buksas
June 19th, 2005, 11:48 PM
Hi all!
Well, I have to say that my favorite programming language right now is Fortran, mostly because I now how to use it the best. I am a PhD Chemistry student and all my boss every uses is Fortran 77 and C and so that is what I usually use. Of course you have to realize that he also thinks FVWM+emacs are the only essential tools on a linux box :roll: . He gets all upset if I'm using Gnome or KDE ("What, are you using Windows?" [-X )
Anyway, I was actually wondering if any of you guys that have scientific computing experience have any suggestions for languages. I mean, Fortran has been fun, but I don't know if there is a more modern replacement. Everybody seems to be lovin' Python. Would you suggest Python for scientific programming?

Thanks

LaserJock

There's a lot development aimed at making Python a complete language for Scientific Computing. Take a look around at SciPy (http://www.scipy.org). I don't have much experience using it, but it looks like a very mature and capable project.

Another common use for Python in science is as a "glue" language between exsiting library components in other languages. With tools like SWIG (http://www.swig.org) you can automatically make interfaces in python to existing C/C++ code.

furtivefelon
June 24th, 2005, 03:20 AM
Ruby and Scheme seem cool, but I don't like interpreted languages in general, because they are a lot slower and more memory-hungry than compiled programs. If you think this doesn't matter, go to a 449 MHz computer with 128 MB of RAM, and try to run the programs you normally use. Even native code is too bloated.


well, this is where your wrong.. your still living in a period of about 20 years ago :D when lisp is still relatively young (though it has a deep 40 years of history).. From the old day's efforts, today's compiler can optimize lisp programs up to 1.2 times slower than the fastest c programs.. a tuned lisp program can run faster than most c programs written by c programmers (not dissing C programmers or any other, but lisp is only learnt by those who really want to learn programming.. not just for the job market, but those who are having fun with programming.. naturally it has mostly elite programmers :D)



Hi all!
Well, I have to say that my favorite programming language right now is Fortran, mostly because I now how to use it the best. I am a PhD Chemistry student and all my boss every uses is Fortran 77 and C and so that is what I usually use. Of course you have to realize that he also thinks FVWM+emacs are the only essential tools on a linux box . He gets all upset if I'm using Gnome or KDE ("What, are you using Windows?" )
Anyway, I was actually wondering if any of you guys that have scientific computing experience have any suggestions for languages. I mean, Fortran has been fun, but I don't know if there is a more modern replacement. Everybody seems to be lovin' Python. Would you suggest Python for scientific programming?


well, lisp is the second high level language developed shortly after the conception of initial Fortran :D As inherited from it's old days interacting with fortran, it has many operators that will help you minick fortran :D Though, lisp is a language designed to express complex algrithoms, so it's very elegantly designed, can be very fast, and it is very flexible.. I have just committed my summer into learning this nice little language.. so far, i'm liking what i see :D
i would say it's good for academic research, after all, it's mostly used by people in research :D

jerome bettis
June 29th, 2005, 08:15 PM
i think i voted for java a few months ago. what a mistake

python owns me real bad now. i was under the false impression that it's in the same building as c++ java etc etc but it's really different and really nice. instead of saying "were going to make life easy for the programmer" and then acutally making things difficult because of quality / speed concerns (java, c++) it actually does make things easy.

i can't wait until i have the chance to learn more of the nice features it has, which will make things even easier.

DarkKnight
June 30th, 2005, 02:10 PM
Being only a relative newbie to Java, I can still disagree with some of what has been said.

It's quite true that there are rather stupid methods of doing things, for example in the IO classes when you wish to readlLine(), it creates too many Strings, clearly this will effect performance. However, Java, much like every other language mentioned, is only as good as the weakest connection; the boof head sitting at the keyboard. If you need to proccess large amounts of text, then use a char buff, as you would else where.

To cut the reasoning short; If you think the classes are slow, create your own. The JavaVM has already proven to be a match for any other VM on the market, it's memory allocation/de-allocation cost is a lot lower then C/C++, so any huge performance loss is not that of the language, but of the Developer. Past that, the entire debate is full of personal oppinions, miss-information, lack of information, and ego.

The biggest thing to ever hurt java was the influx of very poorly made Swing app's. A well made Swing app can be as responcive as any native UI, on the condition you develop it correctly. This stands true for all aspects of programs made with Java.

LordHunter317
June 30th, 2005, 03:28 PM
It's quite true that there are rather stupid methods of doing things, for example in the IO classes when you wish to readlLine(), it creates too many Strings, clearly this will effect performance.What are you talking about? It creates a String object per line. That's not really excessive, especially when you consider it can't do anything else.


If you need to proccess large amounts of text, then use a char buff, as you would else where.No. The whole point of having classes like String and StringBuffer is to encapsulate that hard-to-use, frequently buggy behavior.


To cut the reasoning short; If you think the classes are slow, create your own.No. Chances are you can't write them any faster.


The JavaVM has already proven to be a match for any other VM on the market,No, it hasn't. Plus, which VM are you talking about? Last I checked, I can get multiple versions from Sun, IBM, BEA, and a few other ones. And the performance between them varies wildly.


it's memory allocation/de-allocation cost is a lot lower then C/C++,No, it isn't. Garbage collection has more overhead than explictly releasing resources when you're done with them. That's not an inherently bad thing either. And it's not like they get memory from the OS in radically different ways, either.


Past that, the entire debate is full of personal oppinions, miss-information, lack of information, and ego.You've failed to change this, I'm afraid.


The biggest thing to ever hurt java was the influx of very poorly made Swing app's.Not really. Sun's own continual bumbling with the language has more to do with it than anything. I suspect Java would be dead if IBM and BEA hadn't entered the enterprise Java market. Really.


This stands true for all aspects of programs made with Java.I don't think that was ever in contention.

DarkKnight
June 30th, 2005, 07:38 PM
What are you talking about? It creates a String object per line. That's not really excessive, especially when you consider it can't do anything else.

It creates a String object each time the function is called, this overhead is added to the cost of you methods of dealing with the data, if you use regex to substring it, it will create another string object, etc. So if you have a 1million line document to proccess with regex, you could be waiting a while. In C/C++, you can use a char buff to use the same area in memory and thus avoid the allocation/releasing cost, you can do a simmilar job in Java. Creating 1 million String objects only to dispose of them soon after creation, is quite a waste. It is quite an acceptable performance loss if you only need a few thousand lines though.


No. The whole point of having classes like String and StringBuffer is to encapsulate that hard-to-use, frequently buggy behavior.

And that is all well and good, I fully support the use and creation of such objects.
However, when programmers start complaing that the classes are 'slow' or 'not effecient', I start to ponder why they aren't 'doing it the <Insert favorite language> way'...


No. Chances are you can't write them any faster.

Which is exactly my point.
If you are using a class, it is for a reason, by using it, you know that your performance may suffer,this is the same in -any- programming language.


No, it hasn't. Plus, which VM are you talking about? Last I checked, I can get multiple versions from Sun, IBM, BEA, and a few other ones. And the performance between them varies wildly.

The JavaVM, fullstop. Regardless of implementation, it is the same spec. Although I wouldn't give you much chop for the JavaVM's without JIT.
Performance varies, yes. However the functionality of the JavaVM remains.


No, it isn't. Garbage collection has more overhead than explictly releasing resources when you're done with them. That's not an inherently bad thing either. And it's not like they get memory from the OS in radically different ways, either.

It has more overhead, but a lower cost, the gc can, for example, dispose of objects when the program is idle. Controlling memory management does give Java an advatage of preventing messy bugs and security issues, although granted it is nice to control your own memory usage at times. But if controlling the memory is such a problem, you shouldn't be using (and thus complaining about) Java. (Where 'you' = a general reference to the programmers at large.)


You've failed to change this, I'm afraid.

Ouch, I'm hurt. (Just kidding, I'm eternally happy, for I have Ubuntu.)
I was mearly disagreeing with what was said. Clearly you will have your favorite, as I will have mine. I never claimed Java was faster, stronger, or better then any language, mearly that it has proved it's self not deserved of the mud being slung by those that for the most, don't use it or don't need to use it.


Not really. Sun's own continual bumbling with the language has more to do with it than anything. I suspect Java would be dead if IBM and BEA hadn't entered the enterprise Java market. Really.

I'm glad to hear you suspect that, however I'd be more interested in what makes you think Sun has bumbled about with Java? Honestly, I'm interested to know.

Also, If you ask a lot of people why they dis-like Java, the main reason will be "It's slow", which is true for a lot of badly written applications, those that don't bother to use a (J)Dialog for file copying but rather let the entire UI freeze untill it's finished, for example.


I don't think that was ever in contention.

Well, at least we agree on something then. =)

LordHunter317
June 30th, 2005, 08:14 PM
It creates a String object each time the function is called,Right, which would be once per line, presumably, unless you're seeking through the file or doing other things, in which case one has to question why you're reading whole lines.


this overhead is added to the cost of you methods of dealing with the data, if you use regex to substring it, it will create another string object, etc. So if you have a 1million line document to proccess with regex, you could be waiting a while.Not really. The overhead of creating strings is quite small. Besides, what else would you have it do? Strings are immutable. You don't have any other functionally equivalent options.



In C/C++, you can use a char buff to use the same area in memory and thus avoid the allocation/releasing cost, you can do a simmilar job in Java.And character arrays aren't functionally equivalent to Strings.

Now, if you were talking about C++ STL strings, you might have a point. But it's not that big of deal. There are much larger points of braindamage in the Java API. If you're going to harp Sun for idioicy, pick easy things like checked exceptions, or the collections API, or the Swing API. The basic I/O stuff is quite fine for basic I/O needs.


Creating 1 million String objects only to dispose of them soon after creation, is quite a waste.Hope you never use SAX then... And you can't say when they'll be disposed. That's solely at the hand of the GC. It may not be for years after they're created, for all you know.


However, when programmers start complaing that the classes are 'slow' or 'not effecient', I start to ponder why they aren't 'doing it the <Insert favorite language> way'...Because writing Java classes that provide the support of their favorite language may be: Too difficult Too time consuming Lingusitically impossible Beyond their ability

Moreover, if I'm going to do all that work, a comptent engineer would just use the other language. No sense in trying to turn a chevy in to BMW.


Which is exactly my point.
If you are using a class, it is for a reason, by using it, you know that your performance may suffer,this is the same in -any- programming language.(emphasis mine). And this makes your point irrelevant.


The JavaVM, fullstop.This is meaningless when talking about performance.


Regardless of implementation, it is the same spec.Irrelevant. Nearly a non-sequitur.


Performance varies, yes. However the functionality of the JavaVM remains. And the functionality is irrelevant in the context of what you were originally claiming:
The JavaVM has already proven to be a match for any other VM on the market,That statement is meaningless without more context.


It has more overhead, but a lower cost, the gc can, for example, dispose of objects when the program is idle.That's not relevant. When talking about cost, the two questions are simply: Who can create an object faster? Who can destroy an object faster GC book keeping means that it can't do it faster than the best traditional way of managing memory.

It has more overhead to determine what to delete. Which means more cost. The fact that it can delete objects while the application isn't doing anything else isn't interesting nor relevant to a discussion about cost. All that means is that the GC doesn't have to take the overhead at inopportune times.


I never claimed Java was faster, stronger, or better then any language, mearly that it has proved it's self not deserved of the mud being slung by those that for the most, don't use it or don't need to use it.Seeing as I program Java daily, I don't sling mud about it unless I feel it's well-deserved.


however I'd be more interested in what makes you think Sun has bumbled about with Java?Braindamage throughout the entire API. The fact that anonymous classes aren't proper closures, like they should be. The weak eventing system. The excessively forced cast system. Those are technical concerns. They're a market issue now because MS has recitifed a lot of them with .NET.

Even ignoring the language advantages C# has over Java, .NET is preferrable if only because the API is better, while being almost identical to Java's in several fundamental ways.

In market terms, Sun's licensing has always been a determient, and I don't mean that it's not open-sourced. It's a pain for people to distribute the JRE, meaning that it was never installed on desktops by default. Which killed Sun marketshare in the desktop space.

Then there was the whole MS JVM fiasco, which while as wrong as MS was, Sun didn't help matters any.

Their enterprise solutions are barely used in the marketspace, because their mature solution was bested by BEA's and IBM's from the beginning. They were also using it to push Sun hardware, which by the time Java took hold, no one was really interested in except for running Oracle.

DarkKnight
June 30th, 2005, 09:30 PM
Right, which would be once per line, presumably, unless you're seeking through the file or doing other things, in which case one has to question why you're reading whole lines.

The reason for reading whole lines is a convenience method, at best. It is easier to read a line, parse it and then return it, then to use a faster char buff to seek through the file for your desired bits.(Assuming you needed to format lines)


Not really. The overhead of creating strings is quite small. Besides, what else would you have it do? Strings are immutable. You don't have any other functionally equivalent options.

Quite small next to what?


And character arrays aren't functionally equivalent to Strings.

If you can do it with Strings, you can do it with char arrays, it might just take more elbow grease. If you are after a performance gain, spend the time to do it.


Now, if you were talking about C++ STL strings, you might have a point. But it's not that big of deal. There are much larger points of braindamage in the Java API. If you're going to harp Sun for idioicy, pick easy things like checked exceptions, or the collections API, or the Swing API. The basic I/O stuff is quite fine for basic I/O needs.

I'd rather pick things not mentioned, using readLine where a char buff could be used would mean a big performance hit.

Collections, care to elaberate?

As for Swing, if you use it correctly, where is the problem? If you have a problem with Swing, why not extend .awt and create your own class with mininal effort? (Next to having to create the entire class from scratch)

Does it have a brain numbing effect? Perhaps, however that depends apon what you are used to.


Hope you never use SAX then... And you can't say when they'll be disposed. That's solely at the hand of the GC. It may not be for years after they're created, for all you know.

Nope, never used SAX.
You can always give Java the nudge of System.gc(), if you need to get rid of them. However for almost all applications, the gc handels everything correctly. :)


Because writing Java classes that provide the support of their favorite language may be: Too difficult Too time consuming Lingusitically impossible Beyond their ability

The last point is very valid, however I notice only one reason there is related to the janguage... lol


Moreover, if I'm going to do all that work, a comptent engineer would just use the other language. No sense in trying to turn a chevy in to BMW.

One must weigh up the reason they used Java in the begining. Clearly there was a reason, if not, then you should have been using the other top begin with. If you need the write once run anywhere, then write it all in Java, then optimize to all hell.


(emphasis mine). And this makes your point irrelevant.

My point was already made.
If you don't like the classes write your own, if you are incapable of writing better ones, use the originals, although I fail to see why people call it a Java problem. as you so kindly pointed out.


This is meaningless when talking about performance.

And where, kind sir, did I say "Java's performance has proved it's self agains't any VM on the market", I didn't, as you can see. I said the JavaVM has proved it's self with the other VM's on the market. If you look at the feature set, Security and ease of programming, you will see why. Please do not assume that arguments exist when they don't.


Irrelevant. Nearly a non-sequitur.

No spec = no VM.
Not quite so baseless. ;)


And the functionality is irrelevant in the context of what you were originally claiming:
The JavaVM has already proven to be a match for any other VM on the market, That statement is meaningless without more context.

If you base your assumtions on a purely performance basis alone, then there isn't much context to work with, no.


That's not relevant. When talking about cost, the two questions are simply: Who can create an object faster? Who can destroy an object faster GC book keeping means that it can't do it faster than the best traditional way of managing memory.

It has more overhead to determine what to delete. Which means more cost. The fact that it can delete objects while the application isn't doing anything else isn't interesting nor relevant to a discussion about cost. All that means is that the GC doesn't have to take the overhead at inopportune times.

I shall have to search back through some of the pages, because IIRC, Java can create and remove items quicker. But putting that aside and taking your arguements on face value, the gc will always win. If you can delete memory when the end user is unawares, you will deliver what seems faster performance. And in the end, that is what matters, which makes the entire arguement trivial at best, moronic at worst.


Seeing as I program Java daily, I don't sling mud about it unless I feel it's well-deserved.

And what makes you think it's worth it?


Braindamage throughout the entire API. The fact that anonymous classes aren't proper closures, like they should be. The weak eventing system. The excessively forced cast system. Those are technical concerns. They're a market issue now because MS has recitifed a lot of them with .NET.

Even ignoring the language advantages C# has over Java, .NET is preferrable if only because the API is better, while being almost identical to Java's in several fundamental ways.

C# is an exercise on how to think Microsoft.
1. Get on band wagon.
2. Start steeling band wagon ideas.
3. Get caught.
4. Invent different although very much alike bandwagon.
5. Throw money at new bandwagon untill people like it.

Any language 'advatages' are lost as soon as you run the terrible cross-platform VM. A Java program runs on any OS with small fluctuations, so in a matter of which is better, you can cross off C#'s cross-platform avaliblity.


In market terms, Sun's licensing has always been a determient, and I don't mean that it's not open-sourced. It's a pain for people to distribute the JRE, meaning that it was never installed on desktops by default. Which killed Sun marketshare in the desktop space.

This will change with time. Java, although it's been out for years, only became viable with the JIT. If you want to look at it, Java without the JIT is much like VB, only a lot less evil.


Then there was the whole MS JVM fiasco, which while as wrong as MS was, Sun didn't help matters any.

Didn't help MS any, Sun had every right to complain, MS changed their product without getting permission, they acted as any company would of, including MS.


Their enterprise solutions are barely used in the marketspace, because their mature solution was bested by BEA's and IBM's from the beginning. They were also using it to push Sun hardware, which by the time Java took hold, no one was really interested in except for running Oracle.

IBM's have been on top since they started using Linux, however, if it works for you, use it, IBM, Sun or BEA.

LordHunter317
June 30th, 2005, 09:50 PM
The reason for reading whole lines is a convenience method, at best. It is easier to read a line, parse it and then return it, then to use a faster char buff to seek through the file for your desired bits.(Assuming you needed to format lines)If you're doing true random access I/O, it's unlikely you're reading lines. It's also reasonably unlikely your data is text.

It's just not common, though I can think of a few one-off cases.


If you can do it with Strings, you can do it with char arrays, it might just take more elbow grease.(emphasis mine). Which makes them not functionally equivalent.


using readLine where a char buff could be used would mean a big performance hit. Not really, in the context of most applications. The time spent to get the data from disk is so many order of magnitude larger than how you return it to the application that it's almost irrelevant. Certainly large enough to meant that the difference between using a character array and returning a new object for each line is meaningless.


Collections, care to elaberate?A vector (ArrayList in java speak) isn't a list. I won't use one in the same cases. Yet Java insists on treating it like a list, and providing operations that make little sense on a vector (like insertion in the middle).


As for Swing, if you use it correctly, where is the problem?The API is retarded. JTable is my favorite example. Quick: if you're in cell selection mode, how do you return all the selected cells? What about row selection mode? What about column selection mode? Find the answer (you can google for it) and you'll realise what kind of braindamage I'm talking about. It's a different set of code for each of those three cases, and there is no need for that.


If you have a problem with Swing, why not extend .awt and create your own class with mininal effort?See my notes above. Providing Swing's full functionality would be a monumental task, even as broken as some of it is. It's a decidely non-trivial thing.



If you don't like the classes write your own, if you are incapable of writing better ones, use the originals, although I fail to see why people call it a Java problem.Because the provided Java classes are poorly written or suboptimal in several cases. And because the counter-argument, "write your own" is simply silly, as that's almost never a viable option.

You seem to be against the whole notion that a language's standard facilities should be well-written, which I find odd.


And where, kind sir, did I say "Java's performance has proved it's self agains't any VM on the market", I didn't, as you can see. I said the JavaVM has proved it's self with the other VM's on the market.There is no semantic difference between these two statements, and the original context was performance. Don't try to change it now.


Please do not assume that arguments exist when they don't.You're the one making claims without support, I'm afraid. My intent isn't to be argumenitive, but if you're going to make such a wide-reaching claim as "Java VMs are on par with other ones," you better be ready to defend it. And if you didn't mean that performance wise, you should have clarified that. The original topic of the paragraph in which you made that statement was performance.


But putting that aside and taking your arguements on face value, the gc will always win. If you can delete memory when the end user is unawares, you will deliver what seems faster performance.That's not necessarily true. That's application dependent.


And what makes you think it's worth it?Because other languages and APIs don't make me jump so many hoops to do the same tasks. Because other languages don't cause me to hit the same limitations and require the same workarounds Java does.


Any language 'advatages' are lost as soon as you run the terrible cross-platform VM.What? I didn't know MS provided a CIL VM that could run all of .NET.


A Java program runs on any OS with small fluctuations, so in a matter of which is better, you can cross off C#'s cross-platform avaliblity.This is just one small consideration as to what makes one platform better than another. It's also the least important one. Really.

And your statement tells me that you haven't written much cross-platform Java code, especially GUI code of any complexity. Behavior across operating systems is very much not the same. Especially for complicated Swing stuff (DND, I'm looking at you and plotting your murder, for you have bested me).

intangible
July 1st, 2005, 05:56 PM
Perl, the glue of the internet. It's so flexible and so all-encompassing. You can do anything at all with it (doesn't mean you should, but you can).

I really like it for anything web or networking related that needs an answer fast.

The biggest problem with it is that it's a little lax on enforcing good programming practices, so there is quite a few people out there making some UGLY code :D.

godzero
July 6th, 2005, 09:48 AM
I voted "other" for assembly/ML/binary.

I grew up on the vic-20, c-64 ect. Learned basic, then ML, then pascal... tried c a couple times, but it was too high level to be fast or trusted; too low level to be efficient (coding time-wise).

At work (embedded) I use asm/ml.

I guess it's either bare metal, or cooshy VM for me. I would think many my age would feel the same.

I'm taking up python right now (or will be soon) to occupy the VM slot.

JPatrick
July 6th, 2005, 12:36 PM
I've only done C++

ubuntp
July 13th, 2005, 10:41 PM
I learned Perl, PHP, Python and C (in that order), and my favourite one is probably Python, because of it's slick and clean syntax. Makes it a pleasure to write (and read) code. Perl is the complete opposite, although you can hack some unbelievable stuff together in just one ugly line of perl. PHP is nice too, limited, but does its job well. I have no opinion about C because i'm still learning.

kalle314
July 30th, 2005, 04:40 PM
My favourite is FORTRAN - it's the programming language that is most intuitive for me.

sooqing
July 30th, 2005, 04:56 PM
prolog..

Omnios
July 30th, 2005, 05:16 PM
Realy don't have a favorit yet im still looking for one that can teach me good sytax, don't have much problems with basic type programming but thats the problem its basic past that I get a bit stuck.

Yagisan
July 31st, 2005, 10:54 AM
Back when I was younger, the first language I learned was x86 assembly back on MS-DOS, I remember how excited I was when I worked out how to get my 486 address all 24MB of ram from real mode by using 4GB segments instead of 64k :) I could access my vesa2 framebuffer which was allways located somewhere around the 3GB mark. I made some nice demos back then. Still my favorite language, because I like the absolute control you have, but it's only suitable for small jobs.

zlogic
August 1st, 2005, 09:30 AM
As a language in general, I like C# best.
However, comparing both the language AND the libraries & stuff, I think plain old ANSI C rocks.

LordHunter317
August 1st, 2005, 01:06 PM
Really? Even though C has broken string handling, provides no mechanisms for any I/O besides blocking, byte-based, sequential and random access to files only?

Even though C provides no IPC mechanisms whatsoever? Provides no standard datastructures? Provides exactly one generic sorting algorithm?

It's pretty difficult to like C over other languages based on it's standard library, who's flaws are many and numerous.

zlogic
August 2nd, 2005, 06:52 AM
If you redistribute your program in C source code, it will have a good chance to be compiled on the target system. If you distribute it in C# or Pascal source, the user will probably have to install the corresponding compiler. In addition, both c# compilers, Mono and .NET SDK produce bytecode, which is by definition slower than C code.
And if you don't like the standart C libraries you can always use Glib, it is installed on nearly any desktop Linux and can be easily bundled with Windows applications.
Most libraries are written for C first, then bindings are made. But the library is still more native to C than to any other language.

Teren
August 2nd, 2005, 08:23 AM
Perl and SH :p
And C.

LordHunter317
August 2nd, 2005, 02:57 PM
If you redistribute your program in C source code, it will have a good chance to be compiled on the target system.Not really. Most Linux distributions don't include a C compiler out of the box anymore. Windows doesn't. VMS doesn't. Some commerical Unicies don't. In most cases, the user would have to install the compiler.


In addition, both c# compilers, Mono and .NET SDK produce bytecode, which is by definition slower than C code.Nope, just not true. Bytecode interpretation allows you to make run-time optimizations you can't make with fixed code. Occassionally, the bytecode version runs faster.


And if you don't like the standart C libraries you can always use Glib, it is installed on nearly any desktop Linux and can be easily bundled with Windows applications.But that's not part of ANSI C, is it?

spimoley
August 4th, 2005, 07:13 AM
VB6. Thats what I have programmed the most on. Learning VB.NET and ASP.NET at the moment though. Recently migrated a couple months ago when I was able to buy a cheap VS.NET 2003 Professional. Really enjoying vb.net. I may learn C# but not sure. I want to get vsdotnet and aspdotnet down pretty much by the end of summer. then start on python and probally csharp after that.

juice_fi
August 4th, 2005, 07:21 PM
I have many loves, but I think I like PHP the most.
Python is very nice too, and so are Java and C++.

jwenting
August 5th, 2005, 02:24 PM
If you redistribute your program in C source code, it will have a good chance to be compiled on the target system.

Wrong. Unless you include C source for any libraries you use for each and every platform.
Of course the user will then need to find a compiler that has the exact same quircks as did yours (unless you were extremely careful to use only pure ANSI C in which case they have to find a compiler that is pure ANSI C as well unless your compiler wasn't and you relied on non-ANSI behaviour to ANSI compliant calls specific to your compiler.


If you distribute it in C# or Pascal source, the user will probably have to install the corresponding compiler.

See above. That holds for any language.
If it's not a compiled language the user needs to install a runtime of some sorts.


In addition, both c# compilers, Mono and .NET SDK produce bytecode, which is by definition slower than C code.

Complete bollocks.
Runtime optimisation and compilation of bytecode can create an application that's faster than static native compilation (I give you that it may start a bit slower but that's for real applications a fraction of the time it will be running).


And if you don't like the standart C libraries you can always use Glib, it is installed on nearly any desktop Linux and can be easily bundled with Windows applications.
Most libraries are written for C first, then bindings are made. But the library is still more native to C than to any other language.
It's not ANSI though, and works only with a very few compilers. You can't rely on your users having that compiler.
Of course you would need to ship the SOURCE of Glib in versions for every platform because it will need to be compiled for that platform in order to work.

If you want real WORA, Java is where it's at.

LordHunter317
August 5th, 2005, 02:50 PM
(unless you were extremely careful to use only pure ANSI C in which case they have to find a compiler that is pure ANSI C as well unless your compiler wasn't and you relied on non-ANSI behaviour to ANSI compliant calls specific to your compiler.By defintion, if your code depends on non-ANSI C semantics, it's cannot be pure ANSI C.


It's not ANSI though, and works only with a very few compilers.Umm, no. Glib compiles just about everywhere, and on most native toolchains.


Of course you would need to ship the SOURCE of Glib in versions for every platform because it will need to be compiled for that platform in order to work.And that's umm, one source tree.


If you want real WORA, Java is where it's at.Anyone who spouts this hasn't done enough Java development.

jwenting
August 10th, 2005, 01:04 PM
7 years of fulltime professional Java development enough?
With applications (the same applications...) deployed on several different platforms (HP, Solaris, Linux, Windows, etc.).

Of course you CAN create non-portable applications in Java, but it's a lot harder to do than in other environments.

LordHunter317
August 11th, 2005, 02:57 PM
Not really. All the major J2EE container servers don't just make it easy, they make it attractive to do so. Most huge enterprise sites are locked into what ever container they've developed with, for one reason or another.

Most don't care, either. The cross-platform capabilites of any language or API are generally one of the least-important features. The amount of software in the world that must be cross-platform is just simply rather small.

Viper190
August 18th, 2005, 08:56 PM
I really love coding under C++.
I love working with templates and
the power of the stl.

debackerl
August 21st, 2005, 08:43 PM
I love C, C# (included C# 2 and Comega), and JavaScript, nothing else.

C++: ugly syntax, most complex programs becomes just unreadable compared to Java or C#. Templates sucks compared to C#2's generics, and the STL is just so ugly than C++. It's a pitty I have to make 90% of my programs in C++ for university.

Java: I don't like its exception handling, no properties, no events, int and Int are not the same (so 5.toString() has no sense in Java :S) I apologize if it changed in Java 5.0.

Bash: I would prefer to use a kind of JavaScript.

In addition Assembler is also required even if I don't like it much :p Forth may also be requires in some cases thought it's difficult to read at first.

O:)

LordHunter317
August 21st, 2005, 11:45 PM
Templates sucks compared to C#2's generics,How so? They're a bit eaiser to cope with if all you need is type-safety, but otherwise, they're significantly less expressive than C++ templates.

That being said, they also have other redeeming qualities that C++ templates do not, but in terms of expressiveness, they're significantly less so.


and the STL is just so ugly than C++.What? this makes no sense. The STL is part of C++.

jhiggs
August 23rd, 2005, 04:42 AM
c/c++

entangled
August 23rd, 2005, 12:58 PM
I have to say that, even though I voted python, I don't think it really matters most of the time. All languages are similar in the sense they provide a syntax, data types, functions, control and standard library. Preference is going to be a matter of convenience for the job and your own experience and taste. Execution speed is usually a historical non-problem, from times when we couldn't buy better hardware.

IMHO the real work in a program is done in libraries and the quality of these is what distinguishes language (implementations). I don't much like C++ as a language but the libraries in MFC, ATL and STL, etc are quite good and well documented - but with baroque data typing. I like perl but I do find its libraries rather confusing. python has a good blend of clean syntax, unfussy and intuitive data typing, a free IDE, powerful and extensive libraries and good user community. These factors are much more important than disliking use of tab block delimiters or whether there is a case statement.

tom-ubuntu
August 23rd, 2005, 01:20 PM
I have to say that, even though I voted python, I don't think it really matters most of the time. All languages are similar in the sense they provide a syntax, data types, functions, control and standard library. Preference is going to be a matter of convenience for the job and your own experience and taste. Execution speed is usually a historical non-problem, from times when we couldn't buy better hardware.

IMHO the real work in a program is done in libraries and the quality of these is what distinguishes language (implementations). I don't much like C++ as a language but the libraries in MFC, ATL and STL, etc are quite good and well documented - but with baroque data typing. I like perl but I do find its libraries rather confusing. python has a good blend of clean syntax, unfussy and intuitive data typing, a free IDE, powerful and extensive libraries and good user community. These factors are much more important than disliking use of tab block delimiters or whether there is a case statement.
Agreed with this 100%. This is the reason why I really like the .Net framework. It provides a lot of libraries for daily use. Is it now Microsofts Runtime or Mono. Both have very nice libraries which makes programmers life much easier; work is done pretty quick if I compare to other languages.

kolo
September 2nd, 2005, 09:29 AM
C++ the best!!! The great programming laluage !

Shen
September 2nd, 2005, 12:20 PM
Beatnik (http://www.cliff.biffle.org/esoterica/beatnik.html). The code is simple enough to understand:

Baa, badassed areas!
Jarheads' arses
queasy nude adverbs!
Dare address abase adder? *bares baser dadas* HA!
Equalize, add bezique, bra emblaze.
He (quezal), aeons liable. Label lilac "bulla," ocean sauce!
Ends, addends,
duodena sounded amends.

Other than that, Perl - CPAN has scripts and modules for just about everything there already. I also use C when I need power/fast speed in programs.

XsupremeX
September 17th, 2005, 08:58 AM
I voted other because i like Visual Basic the best... becuase that is what i am learning right now... i wanna learn python or C++ or java next.... then perl... but those are all the langauages that i wanna learn....

im going to be studying VB till next year then ill start C++ or java probably

mvaniersel
September 17th, 2005, 08:12 PM
My favourite for day-to-day use is Perl. I use C++ for when I do game programming or when speed is essential, and php for dynamic web pages. I'd still like to learn python, just so I can compare it with Perl. I've done some C and java in the past. C is ok, but the one C++ feature that I really miss in C is the standard template library. IMHO the main advantage of C++ over C.

Java is ok too but it just doesn't stick with me. For stuff like RAD where e.g. garbage collection is an important improvement in development time, I just prefer to use perl. Something I would never use is C#. I feel that would make me a total microsoft buyout.

I'm a firm believer of "the right tool for the right job". That often means perl for me but perl says "there is more than one way to do it". Sometimes one of those ways is to use php :)

RagingFuryBlack
September 23rd, 2005, 03:06 AM
My favorite has to be java, followed closely by C++

kirillrdy
September 30th, 2005, 12:03 PM
I am Delphi/Pascal Lover (its maybe because its the first thing I ever used). However I also did use C++ for some major projects and cant say much bad about it :)
Also did some work in Assembly, like the power, dont like the mess :)
And after I get more free time, I really want to learn Ruby, I've hear so much about it. Ruby,ruby...

btw There are lots of great projects witten in Object Pascal Language.

Linux ROCKS, Pascal ROCKS, Programming ROCKS, THINGS JUST DO ROCK :-) (sorry guys i am justi in the good mood :) )

Unreal Sorcerer
October 1st, 2005, 05:42 AM
Python.... just learning it now but I really like it..... next is java.... then C++

darkmatter
October 1st, 2005, 07:35 AM
Though I'm still in the proccess of learning, I'm leaning heavily towards Python and Ruby, with C for areas requiring additional optimization (for speed).

I'm not really a fan of C++, as it seems to be just a little to - redundant - for my tastes.

Gustav
October 1st, 2005, 01:46 PM
I know quite a few high-level languages, but my absolute favorite language is: Z80 assembly ^_^

Couldn't agree more :) . But if it isn't on a Z80 I'll have to say Python.

daschl
October 1st, 2005, 09:29 PM
my favourite programming language is php and i work a lot with it.
projects that i cant realise with php -> C++

daysleper
October 13th, 2005, 08:39 PM
Common Lisp is the coolest thing I've ever worked with, so that's my favorite. :)

I've done Basic, Pascal/Delphi, C, Java, ASP, PHP and quite a lot C++. Lisp is by far the coolest 'till now. :D

sphinx
October 14th, 2005, 10:03 AM
Java would have to be my favorite. The huge number of excellent libaries and frameworks available for it make it a winner in my book. Though it is difficult to stay on top of them all.

The standard libaries arn't too bad either. I don't know why some consider the Collections API braindead, they make sense to me. But hey, everyone thinks in different ways.

carbon-12
October 19th, 2005, 04:34 AM
+1 Java

wolphin
October 19th, 2005, 08:02 AM
+1 C. :)

Gustav
October 19th, 2005, 03:34 PM
Well, for doing stuff I prefer Python but Scheme is so cool

davmac
October 19th, 2005, 03:51 PM
Where's the CICS/Cobol option?

Dave Mac

Itachi
October 19th, 2005, 11:35 PM
BASIC *laughs hysterically* just kidding. I like C++. Its pretty easy, even though I'm still learning the basics of it.

Argonsizew
October 21st, 2005, 03:09 PM
I have to vote LISP.

LISP is great and I like it because of its very accessible axiomatic foundation, it frees up the imagination.

It should have really been on the vote.

LorenzoD
October 23rd, 2005, 09:06 PM
I like several different languages, but I guess these days my two favorites are Ruby and Python. If I have to choose between them I think I'd choose Ruby.

My8os
October 24th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Java is the one that works for me :)

darth_vector
October 25th, 2005, 01:02 AM
c/c++/x86 assembler

assembler rules the world!

Wide
October 25th, 2005, 01:24 AM
What is your favorite programming language ?



NC is my choice....You didn't say computer:)

LorenzoD
October 26th, 2005, 04:41 AM
c/c++/x86 assembler

assembler rules the world!

Hm.. *cough, cough*, isn't x86 assembler a little bit backwords, at least if you use Intel syntax? Assembly language on the Motorola 68xxx processors was a lot of fun though..

LordHunter317
October 26th, 2005, 05:35 AM
Not only is it backwards, it's just a godawful mess.

jmonteiro
October 28th, 2005, 09:42 PM
Python is my favorite language! Then, the second one is PHP, and in the 3 place there is C++ :KS

ofek
October 29th, 2005, 12:34 AM
i know quite a few programmin languages:
i started with VB(Don't ever try that),pascal/delphi, c, c++, java, perl, php, python.
and i have to say there is nothing i do more right now than program with python.
its just way faster simpler and well just stright forward, its the eziest a powerfull programming language can be, or atleast close to that.

wilford
November 10th, 2005, 03:12 AM
i know quite a few programmin languages:
i started with VB(Don't ever try that)

might i ask why? i don't mean it like im against ur opinion but i just want to know why. Because a lot of my friends here are using vb. I'm still on java :D
I havn't tried python, but i already have plans.

kirillrdy
November 10th, 2005, 03:15 AM
Ruby Rules !!! !!!! !!!

kanenas.net
November 13th, 2005, 06:08 PM
My favorite is php, using it at kanenas.net (http://www.kanenas.net) ! At work (http://www.sport.gr) I use ASP... Recently I start using Python for mobile programming

TheArbiter
November 17th, 2005, 11:59 AM
Python && C# :D

jaypeasy
November 21st, 2005, 10:21 AM
python and c++ !

Of course mostly python since I can always rewrite the slow bits in C and call it from python.

frodon
November 21st, 2005, 10:48 AM
perl addicted here ;)

geniium
November 21st, 2005, 02:15 PM
Ada!

mux
November 21st, 2005, 03:13 PM
Haskell at the moment =)

kakashi
November 21st, 2005, 03:25 PM
python offcoarse.
i am not a serois proggrammer just learned it during summer for fun. it easy and allows me to write scripts to automate tasks without knowing any bash scripting.

nihilocrat
November 21st, 2005, 10:05 PM
Python, followed by perl / php, followed by C++. I am trying to get into programming D, but I haven't gotten the motivation to get the compiler, linker, etc. to work in Linux.

Python just stuck to me, and I mainly use it for making small GUI apps with wxPython and for making games with pygame. I use perl a lot for just barfing out shell scripts which I will almost never have to look at again, a job for which Perl is perfect. I use PHP for other quick jobs which require some sort of web interface or output on a website. I don't really use C++ anymore except for in class, but I know it so well that it's a part of me.

otake-tux
November 23rd, 2005, 02:06 AM
who ever doesn't vote for python has never written a program in C/C++/JAVA with more than 300 lines of code.

mostwanted
November 23rd, 2005, 04:04 PM
who ever doesn't vote for python has never written a program in C/C++/JAVA with more than 300 lines of code.

Or has actually used better languages than Python, say Ruby.

hacker be
November 23rd, 2005, 09:29 PM
:) with me ,I like c/C++ and java.java and C++ is language progrming OOP ,we are usefull for newbie.Special Java.I Love Java

AmboyGuy
November 24th, 2005, 05:39 AM
Since all of my work has been control/data aquisition and embeded microprocessors there's only one language : FORTH. (well a little assembler also).

Manveru913
November 27th, 2005, 01:31 AM
C++ all the way. On an unrelated note, its also the only language i know. Unless calculator programming is a language.

majikstreet
November 27th, 2005, 02:05 AM
C++ all the way. On an unrelated note, its also the only language i know. Unless calculator programming is a language.
ti86+? or similar? that's a language! tibasic....

nemik
November 27th, 2005, 11:44 AM
for me, PHP. probably since it is the first one i really really got into and made a big project with.

took some c++ classes in high school and don't remember much, but i do remember not caring for it very much.

took a java course in university and thought it was OK. doing J2EE/JSP/servlets work at my internship/job now and while not totally terrible, i don't like it very much at all. i find myself picturing everything i'm doing in PHP and how much easier, faster, and smoother it would be to both run and code.
in my free time i'm trying J2ME out for mobile apps but it is kinda difficult for me, i don't like it much either.

i REALLY want to give python a shot now after reading this thread. i think i'll dedicate my winter break from school to learning that instead of J2ME.

Codificate
November 29th, 2005, 10:30 PM
I voted Java, though the first language I really liked was FORTH...

Burke
November 30th, 2005, 07:07 PM
Or has actually used better languages than Python, say Ruby.

Haha. Yup. I totally agree. Python is good, but Ruby is (much) better. However, I prefer (and voted for) C++, simply because it is so much more awesomer than either. ;)

mendieta
December 1st, 2005, 04:54 AM
It would have been great to have the option to vote for 2 or 3 favorites. I had to choose between C++ and Python. I chose one of them (c++), but really I would use one or the other depending on the application needs. Oh well.

graphic23
December 1st, 2005, 04:59 AM
I actually use Perl/PHP/C/C++ a lot, and out of all of them, I like Perl the best for what it does.

Demonax
December 2nd, 2005, 02:42 PM
COBOL, definitely COBOL

:rolleyes:

Lux Perpetua
December 5th, 2005, 02:50 AM
I voted for C++ because that's my language of choice for most serious tasks. (Templates beat all!)

However, of the languages I know, the most fun (and often most aggravating) to program in is PostScript. One of the most underrated languages in my opinion.

nlp
December 6th, 2005, 04:16 PM
For most uses today, I'd definitely go with Python -- clean, readable, and concise, with excellent libraries.

ARM Assembly is really cool, and I even liked 6502 asm back in the day. There's nothing quite like programming on bare-metal if you want to really understand what's going on! ;-)

I've always admired FORTH and the simple yet powerful ideas behind it, but it seems to be more of a write-only language. I've never written any serious programs with it, though. RPN is a good idea, and FORTH is just too weird *not* to learn (even for fun)! It will help you think in new ways.

For languages having fixed vocabularies, I've always believed strongly in the Wirthian idea of having "one good way to do it". Programming languages like Perl or C++ that were designed around TMTOWTDI ("there's more than one way to do it") are fundamentally brain-damaged, and I avoid them like the plague! Therefore, for compiled, statically-typed HLLs, I prefer the Object Pascal/Modula/Oberon/Eiffel family, though I don't do much with any of these lately (I'm too in love with Python to go back!)

I'd like to learn Scheme someday, just for the fun of it.

esperantisto
December 8th, 2005, 09:29 AM
It's a pity that more than one can't be chosen. I'm not a professional that's why I love Python (for which voted) because it's ideal for people like me. The second for me is Java — it's almost as easy as Python and with 1000 tons of libraries it's just cool. The third is StarBasic — not that I were very passionate with it, but you have to love it to work with OpenOffice.org :-)

Arador
December 13th, 2005, 12:48 AM
I voted for perl.
Easy things are easy (most of the time al least), hard things are possible.
C is my second. It takes a while to get things done, but I find it very rewarding (probably because of that).
I acknowledge C++'s power, but I rarely use it.
Javascript is a seriously underrated language, probably because of a lack for a good framework for it (XUL anyone?)

I really dislike php.
It is lacking a "soul".
you can like or dislike python/perl/java/C/C++.ruby/etc... but they do have an essence, a soul that defines them.
I don't know if anyone will understand what I mean, if not, ignore it ;)

brynjarh
December 14th, 2005, 04:41 AM
C#, Boo

Domhnull
December 20th, 2005, 04:38 PM
Python is my first pick, then PHP, C/C++

3rdalbum
December 22nd, 2005, 03:31 AM
My favorite programming language used to be HyperTalk - PPC users may know what I'm talking about. Very easy to write. I wrote many little programs in it when I was a kid.

These days though, my favorite language is Python. It's so amazingly easy to use. I run my own little web server to share files, and to manage that process I hooked up a Python interpreter to some little code that finds Python instructions in HTML pages (so it's a hypertext preprocessor). It makes me wish that there was an industry-acceptable preprocessor that uses Python :-)

I've also been tought Java, although I find it frustratingly difficult to do anything practical with it.

Also, as regards practical Pascal programming, I thought I read somewhere that most early Mac programs were written in Pascal?

xtacocorex
December 22nd, 2005, 09:31 PM
I am definately a big fan of FORTRAN.

** Waits for the flame...

I first learned BASIC on old 486 machines my senior year of High School and then got to College and do numerical methods programming in FORTRAN for my Aerospace Engineering classes. One of the reasons I run Linux is the ease of code development.

I'm pretty good with HTML, although I haven't messed with it in a long time so I don't know all the newer CSS stuff. I've also completely re-written two MS Access databases with full backend form code in VBA that does stuff I didn't think was even possible with VBA.

I do know basic C++ which gives me an understanding of what the codes I download do, but I don't fully get OOP. I would definately help out with code development if I knew it better. I've dabbled with QT and started to write Pong, but got nowhere fast.

EnGee
December 23rd, 2005, 04:17 PM
I like Java because I have the freedom of OS choice and there are lots of tools and support, but I'm not fanatic of any OS or programming language (except that I don't prefer M$ products).
I like Ruby syntax, it's fully OO and wished that Java is fully OO. Python seems nice also. I definitely would like to learn Ruby (and maybe Python), but Java is taking all my time. I think that Java should be redesigned to be fully OO and easier to work with. It is hard to be productive without knowing it very well (and there are tons of things to know!)

tom_g
December 23rd, 2005, 05:32 PM
C is the first language I ever learned, and I don't think anyone ever forgets the first one :)

I've also used Python (yay!!), Java (ick) and VB (ick++). C is always the one I come back to for both work and play -- usually more of the latter. I love the spartan richness of the language -- the tools, the precision, the freedom.

Anyhoo -- that's my $.02.

http://www.randomendpoints.com

3rdalbum
December 24th, 2005, 06:21 AM
I think that Java should be redesigned to be fully OO and easier to work with. It is hard to be productive without knowing it very well (and there are tons of things to know!)

Too right. I have no troubles programming in PHP, Flash, Lingo, Python, or Javascript (the last two self-taught); but writing to files in Java appears to be beyond my abilities.

Take a bit more time to explore all of Python's functions, syntax, and general "way of doing things" and you'll discover that Java is complete bollocks. Java isn't even reliable at cross-platform support, and that's it's biggest selling point!

LordHunter317
December 24th, 2005, 08:20 AM
who ever doesn't vote for python has never written a program in C/C++/JAVA with more than 300 lines of code.Funny, I've worked on multi-million line codebases in mixed legacy languages (C, C++, Fortran), enterprise level Java web applications (Query/Store interfaces for huge databases, multi TB level), enterprise-level Java applications.

All much larger than you can imagine. And they all have their good and bad points. All of them had code that was an absolute nightmare to work with, and all of them had parts that were fine to work with.

Size of a codebase has little bearing on anything code related if your design is good. It creates plently of CM issues, but that's a seperate issue.

There's plently to dislike about Python too.


i find myself picturing everything i'm doing in PHP and how much easier, faster, and smoother it would be to both run and code.That's probably due to bad design and bad frameworks. Lemme guess, Spring/Struts/Hibernate? All of them are more of a pain than a joy to work with.

That's not to say PHP is much better, but it is OK with the right libraries.


I am definately a big fan of FORTRAN.Which is nothing to be ashamed of. FORTRAN has some wonderful and awesome uses.


I like Ruby syntax, it's fully OO and wished that Java is fully OO. Java is fully OO. I don't know what you're talking about. Ruby and Java share a lot of heritage, too.

[edit]One word makes all the difference. Also, who in their right mind allows post editing 10 hours after making it?

EnGee
December 26th, 2005, 07:21 AM
Java isn't even reliable at cross-platform support, and that's it's biggest selling point!

I'm testing this now by writing a small program/practice in Ubuntu and seeing how it will do in Windows, I hope it will work exactly the same as I'm using the cross-paltform GUI and the same JDK.
Thanks for the warning.


Java is fully OO

I thought that also before, but when I read a book called "Beyond Java", it convinced me that it is not what I thought. For example the primitive types (int, double, ..etc), they are not objects in Java but they are in Ruby.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

LordHunter317
December 26th, 2005, 07:34 AM
I'm testing this now by writing a small program/practice in Ubuntu and seeing how it will do in Windows, I hope it will work exactly the same as I'm using the cross-paltform GUI and the same JDK.It will. Java is perfectly cross-platform as long as you stay with the standard, just like every other multi-platform language.



For example the primitive types (int, double, ..etc), they are not objects in Java but they are in Ruby.
Correct me if I'm wrong.They aren't objects, but that doesn't make Java not OOP. By that standard, most OOP languages wouldn't be.

rolfotto
December 28th, 2005, 02:41 AM
I learned C and C++ in college, but I've been recently introduced to Common Lisp and fell in love with Symbolic computation in general. In any case, it was an eye-opener because it is so different in some respects (after C, many current 'mainstream' higher-level languages seem/are C-like with more crap slapped on.)

I might investigate Haskell next (shrugs) but I'm more interested in solving a few problems than learning another language.

dgbauer
January 3rd, 2006, 04:55 AM
ADA! Definately! (Although Lisp is fun... so is BrainF###) <--I think you can figure that word out yourself! :)

Zonkle
January 3rd, 2006, 12:13 PM
I used VB6 for about 6 years!!

Now I love VB.Net :D

I wish Mono will support VB.Net :) then I will go to Linux totally ... maybe not ... still need Need For Speed :D

Cya ;)

Norberg
January 3rd, 2006, 12:54 PM
PHP is my favorite creating a webased game (Swedish: www.dackbrann.net) in any other langues would be a nightmare

lnostdal
January 9th, 2006, 03:47 AM
Common Lisp all the way. :)

Takeshi Miya
January 14th, 2006, 09:57 PM
My favorite language: C++ :D
My favorite language for web development: PHP. :)
Languages I want to learn: Phyton, Ruby, Lua, D. :p
Languages I hate so much: Java, Anything .NET related, Perl, Visual Basic. :mad:

kakashi
January 14th, 2006, 11:44 PM
[B] Visual Basic. :mad:

well visual basic makes gui making hella easier than anyother. if you are good at it then try http://gambas.sourceforge.net/

its quite like vb (from the liitle i guessed cuz i barel scractched the surface of vb but it is very like vb and free.

Takeshi Miya
January 15th, 2006, 12:56 AM
well visual basic makes gui making hella easier than anyother. if you are good at it then try http://gambas.sourceforge.net/

its quite like vb (from the liitle i guessed cuz i barel scractched the surface of vb but it is very like vb and free.

No thanks, if I would have to use vb, I would use wxBasic http://wxbasic.sourceforge.net/

Anyways, I don't think Visual Basic makes gui easier than any other. There are lot's of examples of that: Delphi, wxPython, wxLua, wxBasic, wxRuby, etc. which in addition are cross-platform.

LordHunter317
January 15th, 2006, 01:02 AM
well visual basic makes gui making hella easier than anyother.No, it really doesn't. It's no harder/eaiser than any other .NET language, and it's arguable if S.W.F. or GTK# are the best GUI APIs out there.

Neo-
January 16th, 2006, 12:17 PM
ooh noez!!! no visual basic!!!
okey okey.. just kidding :)
I like perl pretty much... I've started out C++ now.. It seems like a "powerfull" programming language..

Locke
January 17th, 2006, 06:50 AM
Python, definitely. ease of use, lots of IDE's and tons of things to do with it

geekphreak
January 19th, 2006, 07:15 PM
Favorite: Python
Most used one: Java
Preferred: C#

DarkW0lf
January 24th, 2006, 03:01 AM
HLA/Assembly

http://webster.cs.ucr.edu/

bee
January 25th, 2006, 11:15 AM
This language discussion, is very Linux typical. :p

I choose Pascal. Too bad, Pascal is not mentioned in the pool item. Instead, the pool mentioned Delphi/Kylix. As a Pascal developer, it looks pretty funny to me, since Delphi/Kylix is not a language, they are IDE for (object) Pascal language, made by Borland. :D

Most Linux programmers/developers don't know much about Pascal. If they know, they know the old and primitive Pascal. No wonder if Linux people still consider Pascal as non-serious and toyish programming language. Also no wonder if they think that there's none/zero/null a real successfull application build upon Pascal. But... in fact, those assumption are FALSE! :)

I don't mean to start a flame here. :) Because I think there isn't a perfect language for any kind of needs. But in most cases, Pascal can do what I need in a clean and ellegant way.

Don't you know... that Pascal had already support OOP even before Java was created? Don't you know... that there's a great multiplatform free open source Pascal compiler called FreePascal (AKA FPC) at http://www.freepascal.org? Don't you know... that now there's a great free open source IDE for FreePascal called Lazarus at http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org? Don't you know... that Pascal also can build an operating system? Don't you know... that Pascal can do lots of .Net can do now, 10 years ago? Don't you know... that Java's OOP concept is much more closer to Pascal's OOP rather than C++'s OOP? Don't you know... that you can make a web application using Pascal faster than using PHP?

I'm still able to list hundreds more of "Don't you know..." about Pascal, but I think those are enough. :)

-Bee-

paul123
January 25th, 2006, 07:43 PM
I used to learn C++ but java seems little bit easier
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Sparkalo
January 26th, 2006, 05:03 AM
Thuogh it may not have any practical use any more, I have to say QBasic was a good one. I remember back in fourth grade learning the basics of programming in QBasic. I got pretty damn good, I made a crappy tile-based rpg : P

These days, it's Java, C++, Perl and PHP in that order : P. At the bottom of my list is definetly Visual basic...it's like QBasic, but worse...by a bunch

JoshHendo
January 26th, 2006, 08:22 AM
Hmm... favourite programing language that can be run on a PC is java, favourite one on a webserver is php :). I can't decide on what one to vote on :/

1337sithlord
January 27th, 2006, 03:44 AM
I have a new favourite but unfortunately its not very Linux. (its why ive been gone from here for so long). Macromedia Director's Lingo. It owns cause it makes 3D easier than I ever thought possible. Make 3D games and movies and tons of other things.

RavenOfOdin
January 27th, 2006, 04:11 AM
C++, definitely.

kvorion
January 27th, 2006, 09:31 PM
My favourite has to be C/C++ cos I have used these the most.
I learned C and C++ during the first and second semesters of my Computer engineering course. Other than these I have tried Perl and Lisp and liked them.

I use C and C++ for all practical purposes cos I can somehow fit most of the things into them.

It has always been a passion with me to learn new and interesting programming languages. I am about to learn Java because I will be using them in my current semester. I've used PHP for my web development course and really liked that too. Learned bash scripting a while ago and that also rocked.

I have heard a lot about Python and would like to give it a shot (just for the heck of it....I learned most languages that way). But I hav heard many people say that Python should be learned as a first language. But right now I am past that stage. Is Python still worth learning? and worth the fun?

mdmarmer
January 27th, 2006, 09:44 PM
And when I watch the lightning
Burn unbelievers to a crisp,
I know God had six days to work
So he wrote it all in LISP.

Yes, God had a deadline
So he wrote it all in LISP

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000099SW3/ref=sr_11_1/002-9343748-6813665?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=468646

engla
January 30th, 2006, 05:21 PM
Basically I think my favourite is still Objective-C, even though I really like all of them Cees; C, C++ and Obj-C

BenWilson
February 2nd, 2006, 10:57 PM
This is always a good poll. I'm not surprised that Python edged out. That said, I've just about given up on the programming holy wars. :-)

The last time I was paid to program (I'm in law school) I programmed mostly in Perl. I got to be really good at it, but something just did not feel right.

Now that I'm not being paid to program, I find myself doing lots of little things that are web-based. So, I use PHP. I like PHP in some ways better than Perl, but the aren't really all that different. I would prefer to see some of the PHP behavior in Perl (e.g. the foreach syntax and using preg_replace() instead of s///). I think Perl's success (being all things to all people) is probably the reason I am moving away from it. That said, I still do some behind-the-scenes programming in Perl because it's about the same as typing this message in terms of familiarity.

What I'd like to do is get better at Python. I picked up on it a few years back, but I've never found myself where I had the time, energy and drive at the same time to really do something breathtaking (for me). I'll either one or two, but not the third. Being in school, I don't have any!

When I do get the three together I'll try something on the desktop. Although, I've only done one GUI app in my past, so that plays Python to my weakness--not fair for Python, I suppose.

I'm also intriqued about the much-rumored XUL/Python blend.

3rdalbum
February 6th, 2006, 09:20 AM
Kvorion, the reason why people say that Python is a good first language is because it's such a good language for almost everything.

The first language I learned was HyperTalk, and that was even easier to use than Python... but not as flexible, and it was Mac-only. But before learning Python I had learnt Lingo, Actionscript, and Javascript.

It was only after attempting to use Java that I really appreciated how good Python is. I definately recommend you fire it up and follow their Tutorial for Programmers.

hawking
February 6th, 2006, 05:15 PM
Python is the best...
It's easy,flexible and object-oriented...
And extensions like psyco and pyrex make it look like low-level :)
I love python!

Klaidas
February 7th, 2006, 09:17 PM
C++ and Pascal :)

bmw357
February 9th, 2006, 08:32 AM
C++, cause it is the only thing I know.

Txukie
February 21st, 2006, 11:51 AM
Assembler, no just kidding, it's C++ for me.

metnik
February 22nd, 2006, 01:45 AM
My favourite language is Ruby, specially for:
-> syntax, simple, ooo, no ";" (only if there are more than one instruction in a line)
-> All in one language: webapp(rails), standalone(ruby-gnome2) and scripts of course

C is the speed is needed

JoshuaPDavis
February 25th, 2006, 11:49 PM
There are no LISPs in the poll!
There's no Smalltalk either. :(

I voted for Java, because that's what keeps my kid in diapers.

Python looks interesting to me, and I hope to have the opportunity to use it in future projects.

vbmaster
February 27th, 2006, 02:50 AM
Despite my love for vb, it's c++ that I prefer.... ;)

kosac
March 14th, 2006, 10:23 PM
like java.

i'm learning LISP and it's beautiful :)

Reggaeton King
March 17th, 2006, 02:28 PM
Java rules....

Burke
March 19th, 2006, 08:02 AM
Damn. I voted for C++ a few months ago, and I want to go back in time, shoot myself, and vote for Ruby.

caffinide
March 23rd, 2006, 04:08 AM
python. the only one I know. the only thing I hate is accidently going to python.com... I don't view that kind of site...

auroraborealis
March 23rd, 2006, 04:48 AM
I like C. This (http://paul.rutgers.edu/~rhoads/Code/code.html) is why.

Perl is awesome when doing anything with strings though.

VI forever
March 23rd, 2006, 04:21 PM
Common Lisp

M4av0
March 27th, 2006, 02:52 PM
There is no assembler on the voting list. :)

pitkali
April 5th, 2006, 12:05 PM
I love Python which was my favourite language for quite a while. And then I learned about .NET/Mono with Nemerle language. This was the combination that led me to the .NET framework. Now I do tasks for university classes in C# 2.0 - I think this version of the language is finally usable ;) Pity that Monodevelop does not support it yet (fully). If only I had the time to correct that myself. Anyway, I voted for C#.

I would just like to say two more things. First, I am not using C# or any other language for all the tasks. I completely agree with the idea of the right tool. I keep doing things in Python for example, like my website generator. Second, I don't care who has initially created the .NET idea. I use it, because I like it. People I don't like may still have good ideas, can't they? ;)

And btw, I successfully created Mono apps (even with GUI) under Linux and launched them in the laboratory with only Windows and MS runtime installed. After matching GTK# versions I even didn't need to recompile anything. That's crossplatform if you ask me ;) (I can't say I have any big or commercial projects on my account though.)

Twinsen
April 5th, 2006, 05:59 PM
Im not really that good at programming but at the moment i would have to say php is my fav due to the amount of features it lets me have in websites

Night Owl
April 16th, 2006, 02:13 AM
SML gets my vote. Very flexible, and intuitive i think. The typing system is really powerful. This helps to avoid bugs in the program, and the type inference frees you from having to explicitly state types for every expression. I love the pattern matching style for creating functions. This is a functional language, but it does allow imperative programming if needed (input/output for example).

I really don't like Scheme/Lisp because it has no types. Not good for large projects, as it is hard to debug. Plus, it has lots of irritating stupid parenthesis.

I have experience in C, C++, and VisualBasic. I started out with QBASIC when I was little. I remember I once made a maze game using Qbasic. :smile:

unbuntu
April 16th, 2006, 02:59 AM
I've used almost every language that's on the list, except for ruby and delphi. I would give python the edge(and it has the lead also:)), although I believe every one of these has its own suitability.

Lux Perpetua
April 16th, 2006, 07:07 AM
SML gets my vote. Very flexible, and intuitive i think. The typing system is really powerful. This helps to avoid bugs in the program, and the type inference frees you from having to explicitly state types for every expression. I love the pattern matching style for creating functions. This is a functional language, but it does allow imperative programming if needed (input/output for example).I won't argue with that. That language is quite advanced. It's easy to gloss over it at first and only when learning other programming languages to realize how much better ML handles some things (types, for instance).

DarkED
April 16th, 2006, 07:15 AM
I voted Java but my favorite is actually UScript (the Unreal Engine scripting language) and it's tightly based on Java, so yeah :D

LordHunter317
April 17th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Now I do tasks for university classes in C# 2.0 - I think this version of the language is finally usable ;)Not compared to Nemerle, in many respects. The compiler has braindamage built into it by the language specification. Specifically, the amounts of type deduction it's allowed to do over generics in certain situations and anonymous delegates is totally insufficent, and AFAICT, it's all deduction, so there are no issues with exceptiona; cases.


I really don't like Scheme/Lisp because it has no types. Not good for large projects, as it is hard to debug. Plus, it has lots of irritating stupid parenthesis. Scheme is strongly typed, or at least certain implementations are.

daneel_olivaw
May 7th, 2006, 08:13 PM
Java, even better if interacting with Prolog (I'd say, 2nd favourite language) :P

Sitix
May 8th, 2006, 03:43 AM
Well... as I just made the step from Windows to Kubuntu... I will have to say PHP, since that's the only language I can still program without having to use weird compilers and non executing programs or whatsoever.

It's like I have to learn everything from the beginning again... although, I don't regret it. :D

I was also extremely happy with my 2 day search for my webcam drivers :---)

Anyway, voted for PHP. Though if I would've known how to compile properly on linux, I would've voted for C.

kunnk
May 8th, 2006, 07:35 AM
Voted for Java.

In work i have to use a lot of Windows but i use also a lot of Linux (whenever i can, both in home and in work). With Java, i can move my code, binaries, IDE-s, tools, skills... everything smoothly between different OS-s. I can reuse even keyboard shortcuts in IDE-s, what i learn/code in one OS i can use in all OS-s! Its not possible for example with C# since you cant use Visual Studio in Linux and Mono does not support all .Net features. Thats the killer reason why i prefer Java to Mono.

treak007
May 8th, 2006, 08:39 PM
I dont really have just a single favorite programming language. Each language has advantages and disadvantages. For example, Java is really good for web applications, but the jre is extremely slow. I think though that c++ would probably be my favorite all around language, with java in a close second.

Slim Odds
May 8th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Python is a strange language for already experienced programmers to pick up. I remember when I first started: the enforced white space/indentation threw me off, as well as all these Python guys calling a hash a 'dictionary'. However, once you get used to Python, you can code faster, cleaner, and just plain better than in any other language.
If you like Python, you'll LOVE Ruby. It's got a cleaner syntax, better object model. It's the best. Give it a try. :p

cmaxter
May 8th, 2006, 11:33 PM
try {
OutputStream file = new FileOutputStream("quarks.ser");
OutputStream buffer = new BufferedOutputStream(file);
output = new ObjectOutputStream(buffer);
}
CatchWayToComplicatedTypingException) {
downloadGNUc();
}
/* hehe */

thumper
May 9th, 2006, 10:09 AM
If you like Python, you'll LOVE Ruby. It's got a cleaner syntax, better object model. It's the best. Give it a try. :p
That doesn't necessarily hold.

I love python, but I don't particularly like ruby. It is all down to personal choice. Some people like python over ruby, some like ruby over python, some even like perl over either (freaks :) ).

I do suggest that you look at many and choose the one that you feel fits you best.

taylork
May 23rd, 2006, 03:35 AM
C,
followed by Ada, Perl,
.
.
.
at the very bottom
C++,
VB

I'm surprised by all the Lisp and Fortran users in this thread too. Maybe I'll read up on Lisp as I like parenthesis :rolleyes:.

Jessehk
May 24th, 2006, 12:47 AM
It used to be C++, but then I learned Python, and following that, Ruby.

Ruby is by far my favorite language.

Blue Sky
September 22nd, 2007, 08:35 PM
And to stay on topic, I use whatever language is right for the task at hand.
Languages I know fluently include C, C++, Java, C#, PHP, sh, and DCL. I can fake FORTRAN, perl and maybe one or two others

:lolflag:

Sockerdrickan
September 22nd, 2007, 08:37 PM
C++

Blue Sky
September 22nd, 2007, 08:43 PM
I like C++, I hate Perl with it's crazy syntax, invisible parantheses and half assed object oriented approach. I like Delphi's version of Pascal, it's great or at least was 5 years ago last time I used it.
C# is nice, Java is great as an open source language, although both are braindead languages compared to C++.
PHP is not my cup of tea for anything.
I've never tried Python or Ruby, but something tells me that I'd love them.

pmasiar
September 23rd, 2007, 08:35 PM
I read all this long-forgotten thread and found interesting tendencies:
- During like first 1/4 of the thread, Python was not mentioned - unred the radar untill more recently. And it **still** edged to the first place! Immpressive, but not surprising :-)
- General sillines of this kind of poll is casued by fact that we compare apples and oranges. People pick "best language they know", and most people knows only mainstream languages, like Java, C, C++, and Perl/PHP for web. So new-and-coming niche languages destined to take over the world :-) like Python and Ruby are under-represented not because thay are not good, but because they are unknown.

Maybe more interesting would be to see which languages ppl prefer over others, to show the chain. Because I ma sure that 95% of ppl who knows python prefer it to any other language (for areas where pyton is good fit, ie everywhere except kernel, drivers, embedded, deep game graphics).

pmasiar
September 23rd, 2007, 09:07 PM
I have heard a lot about Python and would like to give it a shot (just for the heck of it....I learned most languages that way). But I hav heard many people say that Python should be learned as a first language. But right now I am past that stage. Is Python still worth learning? and worth the fun?

Yup, still worth learning, and if you will learn **after** some other language, you will appreciate it more, because you will know how hard is Python working for you so you don't have to.

pmasiar
September 23rd, 2007, 09:17 PM
Yes, God had a deadline
So he wrote it all in LISP


That is not true, everybody who knows what sudo (http://www.xkcd.com/149/) means knows that Universe was hacked in Perl (http://www.xkcd.com/224/). What else would you use if you had only 6 days, and not to worry about the guy maintaining the code afterwards? :-)

Stebbins
September 28th, 2007, 05:51 AM
- General sillines of this kind of poll is casued by fact that we compare apples and oranges. People pick "best language they know", and most people knows only mainstream languages, like Java, C, C++, and Perl/PHP for web. So new-and-coming niche languages destined to take over the world :-) like Python and Ruby are under-represented not because thay are not good, but because they are unknown.

Very good point.

But I, for one, am sticking to Fortran :-P

LaRoza
September 28th, 2007, 02:18 PM
Very good point.

But I, for one, am sticking to Fortran :-P

+1 for Fortran. I like it a lot too. Fortran 77 all the way!

tsnell
September 28th, 2007, 07:27 PM
I may be a beginner, but I find Ruby fascinating.

mssever
September 29th, 2007, 02:27 AM
+1 for Ruby here, too.

the_darkside_986
September 29th, 2007, 03:55 PM
I like C/C++, particularly C. C is less bloated and printf is 10x faster than cout. (I'm talking 7-800 nanoseconds vs. 80 in repeated tests I ran. Pentiums have a high-resolution timer register for that.)

I tried learning Java but it seems slow. Also it isn't really free in the fullest sense. I thought Sun was going to release some Java stuff as GPL? Where is that occurring?

I'm taking Visual Basic .NET as an elective but it is for fun. I don't particularly like it. C# is a far better language.

My favorite scripting language, and second fav. lang. 2nd to C/C++ would be Lua. It is not just another scripting language but it is minimalist and very extensible via its metatables and how easy it is to add C/C++ functions to it. (And it is easy to call Lua from C/C++, as well.)

ActionScript looks dumb. If the non-free development tools are worth their price, then why do the flash applications look so hideous? Besides the (lack of) artistic quality in these web apps, have these developers even seen an if-then statement in their whole life? :confused:

I wish I could develop multimedia web applications with Lua. Someone needs to write a mozilla browser plugin for Lua scripts and programs. I tried developing a simple mozilla plugin but the ancient NPAPI's documentation is a mess and the examples are difficult to build.

Fingolfin
October 1st, 2007, 10:59 PM
I cant think of even a single real world project that Pascal was ever used for successfully =;


Me neither :)
Only used it to mess around in the old DOS days ;-)

Maybe TeX as someone has already mentioned it here.

And how about the operating system for Macintosh, System 7, for example, and possibly for some later versions? Multitasking kernel for Apple computers written in Pascal (and assembler) in late 80's (I think).

Seismosaur
October 1st, 2007, 11:34 PM
C to the + to the +! Then mabey C@& (My own version of C), then pascal, then Qbasic, then Brain****, rofl!

hallowname
October 2nd, 2007, 12:20 AM
perl for extendability C++ for interoptability

no doze users understand ./dude.pl
they only understand double-click EXE

like cavemen or something...

ManFromMars
October 2nd, 2007, 06:10 PM
Well, I voted Java as that's what I've worked with most... I quite enjoyed Fortran 95, though, in a goony kind of way. Mmm, scientific computing, tasty. Matlab is turning out to be rather fun. I started wading into Prolog, but I've kind of got bogged down and stopped by other priorities (like Matlab :-) )

I read some knocking of Java Generics earlier on in the thread, what's wrong with Generics?! The collections framework is nice! Philip Wadler (http://homepages.inf.ed.ac.uk/wadler/) helped design them (as well as Haskell, actually), and also came up with the following gem:
"When the W3C 'recommend' that you do something, it's like when the Mafia 'recommend' that you do something: you do it" - therefore he must be Right, for that quote amuses me muchly.

Johntucker
December 13th, 2011, 11:02 AM
C ,C++ is my favourite programming language.I personally enjoy writing in Ruby, but I also enjoy Perl. I have tried Python, but only a little but of it so I can't really say whether or not I like it.

I had to translate a PHP script into Ruby so I had to learn enough PHP to understand what the script did. From what I learned, I didn't really care for it, but I think that's a hasty thought as I really learned what I needed to figure out what the script did.

Website Optimisation (http://www.whiteroseseo.com/website-optimisation/)

leg
December 13th, 2011, 03:22 PM
Delphi is Pascal evolved and my favorite file manager "Total Commander" is written in Delphi.
Portable apps menu also.

CoffeeRain
December 13th, 2011, 03:30 PM
This already has way too many posts, but go Python!!
Anyone know why I can't vote?

ofnuts
December 15th, 2011, 02:06 PM
This already has way too many posts, but go Python!!
Anyone know why I can't vote?Because the vote was in 2005....

This said, I'm curious to see how things did evolve over the last 6 years.

cgroza
December 15th, 2011, 10:12 PM
Recently, it has been Haskell.
Right now I am trying to write a Scheme implementation using a tutorial using it.