Offensive Post

[enyaw]

Those who post offensive post must pay a price other than simply having the offensive post moved into jail

The other day I came upon an offensive post where the party making the offensive post completly took anothers post out of contex. The offensive poster attacked the with a most offensive word. I reported the offensive poster and the offensive post was quickly moved to jail. I believed there must stronger penalties for those who bring such low level of civility to Ubuntu Forums.

I submit; Suspension of posting privilege be the reward for those who cannot conduct thereselves in the spirit of Ubuntu. Perhaps thirty day suspension period of posting privileges would be a good place to start; First offenders. Also, I strongly urge we start with the individule who posted this unjust and vulgar post.:(

[rbalfour]

Moving the post to the jail and reporting poster is enough.
You have to remember the mailing lists and the forums are tied together, this would put a hugh strain on the admin staff. Ignoring such ppl also would be a good thing. all and all, the ubuntu community are some stand up ppl.

[enyaw]

I appoligize for making this post here, however, I feel so strongly about this subject I'm willing to be chastised for my action.

Those who post offensive post must pay a price other than simply having the offensive post moved into jail

The other day I came upon an offensive post where the party making the offensive post completly took anothers post out of contex. The offensive poster attacked the with a most offensive word. I reported the offensive poster and the offensive post was quickly moved to jail. I believed there must be stronger penalties for those who bring such low level of civility to Ubuntu Forums.

I submit; Suspension of posting privilege be the reward for those who cannot conduct thereselves in the spirit of Ubuntu. Perhaps thirty day suspension period of posting privileges would be a good place to start; First offenders. Also, I strongly urge we start with the individule who posted this unjust and vulgar post.

[uzi09]

yea, really does go against the whole ubuntu philosophy.
i second the motive to suspend, although i think a month is a lil too long. perhaps a week?

[T700]

You might want to post your complaint/suggestion in the Resolution Center (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123).

That seems to be one of the uses in its guidelines:

What should be posted here?
1. If you wish to have a thread removed from the jail post and explain why.
2. If you have a complaint about abuse/harrassment from a forum member or staff.
3. If there is a pending forum issue that isn't being handled correctly by forum staff.
4. If you do not believe a staff member's actions were in line with the Forum Guideline

Paul

[matthew]

You might want to post your complaint/suggestion in the Resolution Center (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=123).That would certainly be the best place for the suggestion.

If I move this thread there, however, only the original poster and admins can participate in it. So, what I'm going to do is suggest the OP make a new thread in the Resolution Center and move this one to the Cafe.

[aysiu]

You'll find the staff here are pretty forgiving of offenses.

Usually what happens is the offending post gets moved to the Jail. If the post-er becomes a repeat offender, she gets a private message warning from one of the staff. If the situation remains unchanged, the post-er may get a temporary ban. The last resort is a permanent ban.

Exceptions get made for extreme cases, of course.

[enyaw]

yea, really does go against the whole ubuntu philosophy.
i second the motive to suspend, although i think a month is a lil too long. perhaps a week?

Your suggestion for an one week supension I believe would make the point, and that Ubuntu expects a high level of conduct on its forums. Thank you uzi09:smile:

[enyaw]

That would certainly be the best place for the suggestion.

If I move this thread there, however, only the original poster and admins can participate in it. So, what I'm going to do is suggest the OP make a new thread in the Resolution Center and move this one to the Cafe.

Thank you Matthew for your help.

[raptros-v76]

this idea certainly would make the forums a nicer place. make people think twice about trash talking someone else

[tsb]

I prefer the NARCs must die philosophy.

[yager]

I vote for a 10 day block on the offenders IP address for the first offense. Second offense is a permanent block on that IP. It would be too easy for the offender to create an alter ego to the "bad" poster.

In the event that the specific IP belongs to a public place, then that provider will have to make a request to lift the ban.

[tsb]

^^that would be worthless and waste resources as well as time

[Cap'n Refsmmat]

A simple warning system where points are issued would be better. When a user reaches x number of points, he/she is suspended for a week.

[RavenOfOdin]

I vote for the "This is stupid and a mockery of Linux" philosophy.

[KiwiNZ]

That sums it up well aysiu

[Kilz]

I believe it would just be more effective to have certain words ******'d out. That way even if someone found a way to post something offensive. It wouldn't show up. Most forum software already has this feature.

[aysiu]

I believe it would just be more effective to have certain words ******'d out. That way even if someone found a way to post something offensive. It wouldn't show up. Most forum software already has this feature.
That **** already happens. Notice the *** marks? I think the kind of offense we're talking about is not just swear words.

Edit: Oops! I stand corrected. I guess the swear words don't get commented out. ***

Edit again: Well, apparently a s s will be ***-ed out but not ****.

[KiwiNZ]

I have merged the threads

[az]

[
Those who post offensive post must pay a price other than simply having the offensive post moved into jail


Offensive to whom? Usually, that is subjective, which is why putting them in the jail absolves the forum staff from being called all kinds of names.

The jail is an excellent compromise when you need to deal with problematic posts in an environment of transparency.

If you enforce hard-lined rules about the kind of content which is allowed and do it in private, then that undermines the staffs authority. However, when a post is moved to the jail, and 99.999 percent of the people who look at it in the jail agree with it being there, the staff are seen as doing their jobs.

Now as for reducing the priviledges of people who violate the rules or the CoC, sure.

I had mentioned something along those lines, in the case of extreme circumstances when people were to be banned:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=110465

Now when should people get their posting priviledges reduced for being naughty? Again, who is to decide what is naughty? In exactly what circumstances (objective things, please) do you think it's fair to do that?

[RavenOfOdin]

I made a post about the Vietnam War as compared to Iraq once, and I couldn't see any logical reason for it being jailed.

[KiwiNZ]

O who is to decide what is naughty? I

That why we have moderators,they are third parties and apply the Forum rules.

As for reducing privilages , hmmm either temp ban or perm ban seems to work best.

[az]

That why we have moderators,they are third parties and apply the Forum rules.


Yes, but deciding what is considered offensive is not something that can always be determined by a few rules. Like I said - it is subjective.


As for reducing privilages , hmmm either temp ban or perm ban seems to work best.

Are there finer-grained methods available? A ban is all-or-nothing. For example, if someone is really pushing buttons in the backyard, can their write priviledges to the backyard be suspended for a period of time?

The advantage to that is in a situation where a conflict is happeneing between two people. If one of the two is banned, the staff end up picking sides and the banning escalates the particular user's anger. If both users' write priviledges (to a small part of the forum where the conflict is happening) are suspended until they can work it out in the resolution center (or elsewhere), that can serve to *diminish* the frustrations instead of increasing them.

Call it reconcilatory probation, I guess.

In the meantime, they are not "shunned" from the forums.

In any collaborative project, people can dissagree and tensions can mount because people are passionate. We see this all the time in Ubuntu since it evokes a lot of pride, satisfaction, political awareness, etc. It would be elegant to have methods to bring people back to earth instead of losing them from the community just because they took a particular situation past a certain point - once.

[RavenOfOdin]

Are there finer-grained methods available? A ban is all-or-nothing. For example, if someone is really pushing buttons in the backyard, can their write priviledges to the backyard be suspended for a period of time?


Things which would need to be put in include:

Timestamping (for length of suspension time)
Privilege checks which can be corroborated with a particular forum section (simple versions of this come with a default phpBB install)
Comment field (to put reason for change in)

etc etc.

then you'd have to modify the current user databases to take the new changes into account.

I don't think it can be done without developing a mod or extension, which would make forum admin duty twice the pain in the *** that it regularly is, unless you contract someone to write it up.

[az]

Things which would need to be put in include:

Timestamping (for length of suspension time)
Privilege checks which can be corroborated with a particular forum section (simple versions of this come with a default phpBB install)
Comment field (to put reason for change in)

etc etc.

then you'd have to modify the current user databases to take the new changes into account.

I don't think it can be done without developing a mod or extension, which would make forum admin duty twice the pain in the *** that it regularly is, unless you contract someone to write it up.

When I was a Super-Moderator, I seem to remember that I was able to remove access to one (or more) section(s) from a user. Timestamps would not be in use, since the lifting of the restrictions is contigent on conflict resolution - which can be lengthy or fast.

The forums use vBuletin, not phpBB.

[KiwiNZ]

We have in the past taken away privillages to certain areas only to have the individual start posting the same stuff in other areas. The end result is them being banned anyway.

But yes it is an option that is considered.

[ubuntu-geek]

When I was a Super-Moderator, I seem to remember that I was able to remove access to one (or more) section(s) from a user. Timestamps would not be in use, since the lifting of the restrictions is contigent on conflict resolution - which can be lengthy or fast.

The forums use vBuletin, not phpBB.
Correct, its not the best and most efficient way to handle the situation either. When we upgrade to the next release of vbulletin which I have been testing for a week now there will be a new infraction system to help moderators be a little more subjective when it comes to offensive users. Rather then just banning a giving a warning a stern system is in place to trak offenders and limit access without actually banning.

Feel free to check out the vb website with the details of that new addition, it really rocks.

Random information here, last I knew (about 2 months ago) the forums had far less bans then the IRC channels..

[enyaw]

That why we have moderators,they are third parties and apply the Forum rules.

As for reducing privilages , hmmm either temp ban or perm ban seems to work best.

Well in the heat of my disgust for the offensive post, which took me to the point where I posted on the wrong forum, [to make my disgust known to the widest Ubuntu audience ], I failed to realize that perhaps the established Ubuntu Forum system has in place an adequate remedy for such outrageuos behaviour.

I would hope Ubuntu Forum managers would exercise zero tolerance for bad and insulting behaviour on Ubuntu Forums. Swift and meaningful punishment must given those who would take civil discourse into their own gutter of bad manners.

[rcarring]

I believe that fair comment is allowable. If a users posts that they did a certain thing to their computer and as a result it no longer worked, it could be permissible for someone to post a reply to say that they did a stupid thing and offer some assistance. That surely is fair comment? On the other hand calling somone a rude word shouldn't be tolerated.

[rcarring]

I made a post about the Vietnam War as compared to Iraq once, and I couldn't see any logical reason for it being jailed.


I expect the forum prefers to remain politically neutral. My jokey post on another forum here was a joke and not some clever point on the politics of the USA.

[enyaw]

I believe that fair comment is allowable. If a users posts that they did a certain thing to their computer and as a result it no longer worked, it could be permissible for someone to post a reply to say that they did a stupid thing and offer some assistance. That surely is fair comment? On the other hand calling somone a rude word shouldn't be tolerated.

Why would not: Sorry you made an error in judgement or something similar, which would be considerably less insulting than referring to someones techinical mistake as a stupid thing. Has the English language deteriorated to such degree that one finds it impossible to communicate without using insulting remarks.

[Biltong (Dee)]

I occasionally find references to "Ubuntu Burnt Beans".
One assumes they are people who have been warned repeatedly by the Moderators to no avail. When one posts I already have advance warning that there could be trouble. Could we not have different levels of burnt beans?
G*d knows what, but this could be less labour-intensive than other suggestions.

[T700]

Well in the heat of my disgust for the offensive post, which took me to the point where I posted on the wrong forum, [to make my disgust known to the widest Ubuntu audience ], I failed to realize that perhaps the established Ubuntu Forum system has in place an adequate remedy for such outrageuos behaviour.

I would hope Ubuntu Forum managers would exercise zero tolerance for bad and insulting behaviour on Ubuntu Forums. Swift and meaningful punishment must given those who would take civil discourse into their own gutter of bad manners.

I'm all for a civil and moderated forum, but let's remember that this is an internet forum. Maybe having cut my teeth on Usenet I'm just jaded, but I've yet to feel any "heat of...disgust for [an] offensive post," or wish for "Swift and meaningful punishment...." for someone acting out in a thread.

Paul

[rcarring]

Why would not: Sorry you made an error in judgement or something similar, which would be considerably less insulting than referring to someones techinical mistake as a stupid thing. Has the English language deteriorated to such degree that one finds it impossible to communicate without using insulting remarks.

Oh. I was under the impression that people who post on bulletin boards were fairly thick skinned. I have posted on some pretty rough boards, and i mean rough, and for someone to say "well mate that was a bit stupid, maybe we can get you out of your pickle eh?" would be taken as mild admonishment but the fact that they offer help would moderate the impact of their previous comment.

I think that sometimes people don't realize that the person saying "stupid" may be saying so with a big smile, in much the same way as my sysadmin once did when I trashed my work pc by trying to install a program.

If someone calls me stupid then clearly I am stupid.

I would hesitate to insult anyone here, I mean why would I?

I used to post on alt.wing-commander and I recall one poster called "God" really got on everyone's nerves and was called an idiot for the persistent bs that they posted, thus leading to the famous (or infamous) line from someone that "God was an idiot". Bizarre but true.

From many years of admining and modding boards I would say this: never take anything so seriously that you get upset by what has been said. I mean Ubuntu is supposed to be fun and all =D

[enyaw]

I occasionally find references to "Ubuntu Burnt Beans".
One assumes they are people who have been warned repeatedly by the Moderators to no avail. When one posts I already have advance warning that there could be trouble. Could we not have different levels of burnt beans?
G*d knows what, but this could be less labour-intensive than other suggestions.

I believe the suggestion may have much possibility. The Ubuntu community would then be aware of those offenders and ostracize such offenders simply by not considering their post. The "burnt beans" stigma could be used as an probationary tool and removed after a period of good behavior

This action of course should be in addition to the more severe penalty of jail and with the possibility of complete stripping of posting privilege.

[enyaw]

Oh. I was under the impression that people who post on bulletin boards were fairly thick skinned. I have posted on some pretty rough boards, and i mean rough, and for someone to say "well mate that was a bit stupid, maybe we can get you out of your pickle eh?" would be taken as mild admonishment but the fact that they offer help would moderate the impact of their previous comment.

I think that sometimes people don't realize that the person saying "stupid" may be saying so with a big smile, in much the same way as my sysadmin once did when I trashed my work pc by trying to install a program.

If someone calls me stupid then clearly I am stupid.

I would hesitate to insult anyone here, I mean why would I?

I used to post on alt.wing-commander and I recall one poster called "God" really got on everyone's nerves and was called an idiot for the persistent bs that they posted, thus leading to the famous (or infamous) line from someone that "God was an idiot". Bizarre but true.

From many years of admining and modding boards I would say this: never take anything so seriously that you get upset by what has been said. I mean Ubuntu is supposed to be fun and all =D
I'm for fun and fun for me is much more enjoyable when everyone enjoys it.

[BuffaloX]

I don't recall seing anything offensive on Ubuntu forums.
In general I think people should be able to walk the line.
Usually if someone is impolite, it's enough to steer them straight.
Explaining to them where they went wrong.

We do need moderators, but the word should be as free as possible.

I live in Denmark, a country with free speech to the extreme.
You can legally make propaganda for comunism, even nazi propaganda.
Both are legal parties, but they have absolutely no political influence in Denmark, and they have no influence in the political debate.

Denmark has much less problems with right wing fanatics than countries around us, that has regulations making comunism and nazism illegal, and has active policies to fight those type of organisations.

[henriquemaia]

I don't recall seing anything offensive on Ubuntu forums.
In general I think people should be able to walk the line.
Usually if someone is impolite, it's enough to steer them straight.
Explaining to them where they went wrong.

We do need moderators, but the word should be as free as possible.

I live in Denmark, a country with free speech to the extreme.
You can legally make propaganda for comunism, even nazi propaganda.
Both are legal parties, but they have absolutely no political influence in Denmark, and they have no influence in the political debate.

Denmark has much less problems with right wing fanatics than countries around us, that has regulations making comunism and nazism illegal, and has active policies to fight those type of organisations.
I agree with. I do not like the policy "trespassers will be prossecuted" (this is an analogy). I think the present forum policy works very well. It's much more pedagogic, constructive and ultimately more positive to the forums than the proposed by the OP. This is my view of things.

[RavenOfOdin]

Oh. I was under the impression that people who post on bulletin boards were fairly thick skinned. I have posted on some pretty rough boards, and i mean rough, and for someone to say "well mate that was a bit stupid, maybe we can get you out of your pickle eh?" would be taken as mild admonishment but the fact that they offer help would moderate the impact of their previous comment.

I think that sometimes people don't realize that the person saying "stupid" may be saying so with a big smile, in much the same way as my sysadmin once did when I trashed my work pc by trying to install a program.

If someone calls me stupid then clearly I am stupid.

I would hesitate to insult anyone here, I mean why would I?

I used to post on alt.wing-commander and I recall one poster called "God" really got on everyone's nerves and was called an idiot for the persistent bs that they posted, thus leading to the famous (or infamous) line from someone that "God was an idiot". Bizarre but true.

From many years of admining and modding boards I would say this: never take anything so seriously that you get upset by what has been said. I mean Ubuntu is supposed to be fun and all =D

Agreed completely and totally.

[kassetra]

Those who post offensive post must pay a price other than simply having the offensive post moved into jail
When we looked at the forum software upgrade process, one of the things that stood out to us is that we wanted a ticket or infraction system so that people that abuse others and do not follow the guidelines would have instant feedback regarding those actions.

When we upgrade, we will be implementing the new infraction system as has been stated previously by ubuntu-geek. This should provide a much easier system for moderation by giving the staff more tools to use - and it will have the benefit of letting people that break the rules know immediately that their actions are unacceptable.

By giving all staff these new tools to use, I think we will be able to more effectively deal with the rubbish that all popular forums have. :)

[jan]

I totally agree on moving offending threads into jail.