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kbrooks
July 1st, 2006, 02:54 PM
Dear Ubuntu Community,
DISCLAIMER: I do not endorse Automatix in any way. I am just tired of the arguments that occur when someone recommends Automatix.

So you're telling people not to use Automatix. Well, the newest version of Automatix is/has been tested by over 6 people. Some of you have tried the newest version of Automatix. Some of these "tryers" say that it works for them - other say it doesn't. Your mileage may vary.

The bottom line is that it is highly stupid to pretend that the *newest* version of Automatix is "unsafe" in any way when you all haven't tried it. You are spreading FUD in an attempt to pull people over to EasyUbuntu. This is wrong.

I ask you all to PLEASE consider that BOTH Automatix and EasyUbuntu CAN break systems (regardless of whether or not EasyUbuntu is "safer") and therefore I ask you to treat them equally and recommend both (as in ask people to try both, see if you like one best).

Thanks,
Kyle Brooks, EasyUbuntu developer/contributor

Bloch
July 1st, 2006, 03:08 PM
I know choice is the by-word of linux. But this is another case where choice is just an annoyance to the new user.
Proprietary formats/software, particularly mp3, wma, the software to play DVDs, java are all an integral part of a modern operating system. It is confusing, unneccessarily so, for the new user to face so many choices in installing these.

It would be nice if the community got together and recommended one of automatix / easy ubuntu / something else
for beginners.
It really is not fair to tell beginners to choose one.


Well, the newest version of Automatix is/has been tested by over 6 people.
Is this a sophisticated joke?
I have used automatix twice with no problem. But I would think twice before using software that has only been tested by 6 people. Clarify what you mean.

Is there any procedure for canonical to "officially" recommend one of these intallation scripts?

For the record, I only know automatix.

Raavea
July 1st, 2006, 03:12 PM
I have only used Automatix, on Breezy. (I had to re-install a few times, because I killed it...:-\")

Next time I re-install, I think I will use Easy Ubuntu, as I would hope it worked better. They both sound great, but I'd like to see where the differences lie.

I reckon they both probably have shortcomings, and ubernesses. For instance, I think I'd like Auto better if there was a fuller explanation for the bits you can choose. When someone new needs stuff installed, I will be pointing them toward wiki's. I did it the hard way already, that's why I'm lazy now. :lol:

Jucato
July 1st, 2006, 03:20 PM
Automatix, EasyUbuntu, and even Apt can break systems. there's no absolute 100% guarantee of success.

Having said that, I mention both Automatix and EasyUbuntu to new users, but usually prefer to instruct them on how to do things manually. It might be harder, but the "educational" benefits might be worth it. But that's just my opinion, and not everybody wants to do things that way. I don't have anything against either. I just didn't have the need to use them. Again, that's just me.

@bloch:
the community really can't be asked to decide which project to "endorse" because both Automatix and EasyUbuntu are part of the community. Choosing one over the other means that people will get hurt. And that will be a worse situation than having too many choices.

Also, I believe Canonical can't "officially" endorse either of them, because it would go against their philosophy/commitment to free software. Any "endorsement" or referral would only come through individual persons/devs speaking as inidividuals, not as representatives of Canonical. Of course, I might be wrong. :D

TrailerTrash
July 1st, 2006, 03:25 PM
Ive used Easy Ubuntu, Automatix, and BUMPS...All 3 have worked great...They did not mess up nothing. I love them all, but i dont have a favorite. Anything can break a system.

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 03:29 PM
It would be nice if the community got together and recommended one of automatix / easy ubuntu / something else
for beginners.
It really is not fair to tell beginners to choose one. There was a time, too, when I was a "beginner" to pasta. Believe it or not, I didn't really eat pasta until college.

Would it have been unfair for someone to ask me which kind of pasta to eat? No. It would have been unfair if they just threw a bunch of names of pasta at me: "Do you want fusili, penne, ravioli, fettucini, gnocchi, or rotini?" What? What? What? I don't speak Italian? How am I supposed to know?

But if someone took the time to explain what the choices are, I wouldn't have minded choice.

This is true of food, restaurants, MP3 players, hotels, video games, books, and just about everything. People love choice, but they just want to know enough to make an informed choice.

Instead of thinking for new users, just give them informed choices. Easy Ubuntu, BUMPS, and Automatix are meaningless names to new users (just as pasta names were meaningless to me at first), so let's point them to explanations of the differences (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=185643).

tsb
July 1st, 2006, 03:33 PM
Automatrix didn't work on my vanilla Ubuntu 5.10 install, so I feel it needs a little more work before it's ready for J6P. It's a grand idea, and hopefully it will realize its full potential.

tsb
July 1st, 2006, 03:37 PM
aysiu- nothing worse than overcooked pasta.

fenyx- 100% agreed.

3rdalbum
July 1st, 2006, 05:51 PM
Automatix may work well for some people, but I think we should be encouraging new users to do it "the hard way", and fall back on these scripts as a last resort.

Installing proprietry support through Synaptic builds character. :-) But most importantly, it builds knowledge.

T700
July 1st, 2006, 07:03 PM
Automatix may work well for some people, but I think we should be encouraging new users to do it "the hard way", and fall back on these scripts as a last resort.

Installing proprietry support through Synaptic builds character. :-) But most importantly, it builds knowledge.

I enjoy learning the how and why and doing things myself, but if I went to the car dealership for a new vehicle and they gave me a 90% complete machine, plus a map to the location of parts stores, and some manuals, I'd be less than thrilled. I see no reason to put new users through the pain of manually installing these things unless they are particularly interested in doing so.

Paul

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 07:04 PM
T700, while I agree in principle with what you're saying, installing extra codecs is not nearly as difficult as installing car parts... and if you type the wrong command, your computer won't explode. If you install the car part incorrectly, though, your car very well may!

mstlyevil
July 1st, 2006, 07:34 PM
People sometimes misunderstand the intention of the people who develop the programs like Automatix, EasyUbuntu, and BUMPS. These programs are developed to help promote Debian and Ubuntu to new users.

The goal of Automatix is to make it easier for new users to get their system up and running so they can enjoy the operating system now. The hope is to get as many people as possible to stick with Ubuntu so they get hooked. In time many of these people will want to learn how to do this stuff manually and will want to learn their operating system's potential.

Before Automatix people were instructed to mindlessy copy and paste commands in the terminal. People were just doing this with no understanding of what the commands actually were or what they really did. I am saying this from my own personal experience. It was about two months of using Ubuntu that made me realize I wanted to actually learn what these commands did and to become more aquainted with the features of the operating system.

In other words people have to want to learn more about their operating system before the will learn about it. If we want to spread Debian, Ubuntu and Linux we have to accept the fact that we need to cater to individuals who ATM do not have the desire to learn more about it. They just want a working system ASAP. The more of these individuals we get started on Linux, the larger the number of people there will be that eventually will want to learn more.

None of these programs are better or worse than the other. They are just different in their scope. I agree with asyiu that people need to be informed of the choices each one has to offer and let the user make a choice on that information. Automatix is not competing with BUMPS or EasyUbuntu. This is not a contest that one of us has to win. All I can say is look at what each has to offer and decide which one suits your needs best.

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 07:38 PM
I'm with mstlyevil on this one. No one has anything to gain by forcing users to install popular applications manually.

If users want to install manually, they have that option. A-B-E are just other options that make things simpler. If people want to learn stuff later, they can.

Either way, pasting commands doesn't force you to learn what those commands (I, too, an speaking from experience). I, like many others, chose to learn what those commands mean after I got my system set up through copy and paste.

I think what you suggest to new users (A-B-E or manual installation) should depend greatly on the situation and of A, B, and E, what you suggest will probably come down to what you yourself have used. If you've used only BUMPS, it certainly doesn't make sense to recommend Automatix to someone.

Here's a situation where I'd recommend A-B-E:
Hi. I'm new to Ubuntu. It looks to be an exciting system, and it seems more fun than Windows. I'm having a bit of trouble, though. Right now, there seems to be a lot to learn, and I do want to learn everything in time, but for now... I just want a functioning system. Can anyone tell me how I can install Acrobat Reader, Flash, Limewire, and Swiftfox?

Here's a situation where I'd recommend manual installation:
Can someone tell me how I can get MP3 playback on my Ubuntu? Thanks

John.Michael.Kane
July 1st, 2006, 07:55 PM
Linux enduser's have to want to learn how to do this stuff be it gui or manually ,and have to to be willing to learn their operating system's potential be it Linux or some other os. sure aysiu or any other forum member can post a command code while listing exatly what the code does.

however is the user just see's the code, and does not take the time to read what it does just copy/past it, and say it does not work for them you still end up with someone saying linux is not this that,and the next.

I'm not sure there are many who are willing to read 200+ page linux books with command line info ect. you do have those who are willing to learn linux be it a few.

I don't care if it's Automatix, EasyUbuntu,Bumps,Aptitude. the enduser should have a list avalable to them that explains what the codes are,and do. now if they are unwilling to read it thats another problem then.



just my thoughts..

aysiu
July 1st, 2006, 07:59 PM
I'm speaking only for myself here, but if I'd been forced to understand absolutely every command before entering it into my Ubuntu terminal, I would not be using Ubuntu right now.

I liked the freedom of being able to choose what I wanted to understand and when I wanted to understand it. I chose at first to just copy and paste commands I knew would work (as they were often recommended by more than one forum member).

Later, when my system was working the way I liked it, I investigated a bit more as to what the commands do. I like working at my own pace and not being forced to learn things before I'm ready to learn them.

enyaw
July 1st, 2006, 08:12 PM
I know choice is the by-word of linux. But this is another case where choice is just an annoyance to the new user.
Proprietary formats/software, particularly mp3, wma, the software to play DVDs, java are all an integral part of a modern operating system. It is confusing, unneccessarily so, for the new user to face so many choices in installing these.

It would be nice if the community got together and recommended one of automatix / easy ubuntu / something else
for beginners.
It really is not fair to tell beginners to choose one.


Is this a sophisticated joke?
I have used automatix twice with no problem. But I would think twice before using software that has only been tested by 6 people. Clarify what you mean.

Is there any procedure for canonical to "officially" recommend one of these intallation scripts?

For the record, I only know automatix.

Why am I with Ubuntu.

Well in the beginning my OS was MS-Dos 5.0, then for years my computers ran with windows, one flavor or another. Eventually I found windows to be a canned approach to computing, not a bad approach but for me boring. Years ago Linux, for me at least, was impossible to install, but what a challenge! Linux for me is an adventure and that's why I'm with Linux. Why is choice good? Well to have choices, first we must have dedicated individuals [developers] willing to make the effort and develope applications so that choices exist, and this is good, because it enlarges the scientific base for computing. I'm for choice and Automatix is :cool:

John.Michael.Kane
July 1st, 2006, 08:15 PM
aysiu i agrree with the whole learn at your own pace thought. however there are those who are not even willing to do that.

As for the whole copy/paste thing it's fine to do i guess to get the system up, provided the user understands that pasting codes may not always be an option.


In the end there are many ways to get a linux system to run the way you want, and what you want.


I hope the dev's of all these programs can find common ground,and get along as a whole.

xtacocorex
July 1st, 2006, 08:26 PM
I don't recommend any of the programs to new users. Why, I don't know, most likely because I let other people answer those questions.

I used EasyUbuntu when it first came out on my Hoary system, I think it was modified from a French program and it broke some stuff in my system, but since I was used to Linux, I could fix it. The sort of breakage that occured would have definitely annoyed a new user.

When Dapper came out, I didn't want to do stuff manually, so I used Automatix. I worked good, but hung up on Flash, but after running it twice, it finally installed.

I haven't used BUMPs yet, but it was either that or Automatix when I installed Dapper and at the time, I thought about helping out on Automatix, but I have no clue what zenity is, so I decided not to. I used Automatix to figure out if I could be helpful to the team.

I will agree with the idea to let people know the differences between the programs when providing help and not just suggesting one program, even if you've only used one of the many.

For example, you could reply with:

There are multiple ways to do this, EasyUbuntu, BUMPS, and Automatix, they can be found (links here). This link here (insert link) will tell you about the differences between the three. I currently use this (insert program name) and if you chose this, I may be able to further help you with problems associated with that.

And with that, I've exhausted my literary capacity for the weekend, so I'm off to a wedding.

MikePnKY
July 1st, 2006, 08:30 PM
I'm speaking only for myself here, but if I'd been forced to understand absolutely every command before entering it into my Ubuntu terminal, I would not be using Ubuntu right now.

Later, when my system was working the way I liked it, I investigated a bit more as to what the commands do. I like working at my own pace and not being forced to learn things before I'm ready to learn them.

Absolutely the same here. After I installed Breezy, I used automatix to configure it. The same with Dapper. But now, I have an older PC that I've installed Dapper on, that I am "piecing together". I've come to find that installing what I need is not the least bit hard.....the hard part is knowing what I'm looking for! Sometimes you can't tell anything by filenames, and reading descriptions is the only way to do it, and that is time consuming...but I'm getting there!!

gingermark
July 1st, 2006, 08:46 PM
I remember when I was using Kubuntu Hoary I had a problem (can't remember what it was). I searched the problems, and found a thread by a Ubuntu user with the same problem. Unfortunately for me, the answer given to that user was simply "Use Automatix". Of course, there was no Automatix for Kubuntu at the time.

I think these forums provide an awful lot of useful information, and only answering a query with "Use Autmatix / Easyubuntu / whatever" will diminish that.

By all means mention these tools as options open to users, options that work for a lot of people, but maybe aren't "guaranteed". But still tell folks the manual way to do things.

That way, those who want to learn will, and that will include users searching the forums at a later date.

nickle
July 1st, 2006, 11:26 PM
While I have learned to manually install and configure all the stuff these utilities do, I simply don't see the point if there are tools that bundle all this together and do it for you.
So I don't think the only justification is to help the uninitiated, but to make life easier for those who don't get a kick out of configuring everything manually themselves.
I do not understand those who want to force people to do everything the hard way and "learn". Let everybody chose for themselves the degree they want to learn.
For my part I love these tools and congratulate the developers for making my life easier. I prefer to spend my time listening to my music and watching films rather than bashing away at the keyboard...

Bloch
July 2nd, 2006, 01:50 AM
I guess part and parcel of using ubuntu/linux in general is to understand the notion of open source software versus proprietary software / proprietary formats.
But if you look at the main ubuntu page
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop
it does not mention proprietary formats. "play your videos in Totem" it says. No, it does not. Not as installed from the CD rom.
I think there should be a note there to explain that proprietary software to play these formats can be downloaded using Bumps.

Once again, the user knows he/she wants to play dvd's mp3s and mpegs and avi. There is no benefit to the new user to be faced with choices here. Aysiu, a comparison to pasta is not valid.

But thank you for the link above which explains the difference between Automatix / Easy Ubuntu / Bumps. I learned a lot. For new users in future I will suggest Bumps first of all, and then careful consideration of what other features they need.

I hope you appreciate my point that the ability to play DVDs, mp3s, mpegs for better or for worse is generally expected as part of an operating system.

sophtpaw
July 2nd, 2006, 01:52 AM
"The goal of Automatix is to make it easier for new users to get their system up and running so they can enjoy the operating system now. The hope is to get as many people as possible to stick with Ubuntu so they get hooked. In time many of these people will want to learn how to do this stuff manually and will want to learn their operating system's potential."

Before Automatix people were instructed to mindlessy copy and paste commands in the terminal.

And now we should mindlessly use Automatix or Easyubuntu?

For me mindlessly copying and pasting commands from ubuntuguide worked. And i actually did, as a complete and linux and computer noob learn. More than with Easyubuntu in fact.



People were just doing this with no understanding of what the commands actually were or what they really did. I am saying this from my own personal experience. It was about two months of using Ubuntu that made me realize I wanted to actually learn what these commands did and to become more aquainted with the features of the operating system.

In other words people have to want to learn more about their operating system before the will learn about it. If we want to spread Debian, Ubuntu and Linux we have to accept the fact that we need to cater to individuals who ATM do not have the desire to learn more about it. They just want a working system ASAP. The more of these individuals we get started on Linux, the larger the number of people there will be that eventually will want to learn more.

None of these programs are better or worse than the other. They are just different in their scope. I agree with asyiu that people need to be informed of the choices each one has to offer and let the user make a choice on that information. Automatix is not competing with BUMPS or EasyUbuntu. This is not a contest that one of us has to win. All I can say is look at what each has to offer and decide which one suits your needs best

This recurring clichee in linux forums, " decide which one suits you best" etc ...AaRrrgHh....

I agree with the earliest reply, as a new user and noob i don't want to be confused with lots of choice. I remember when everyone was directed to the ubuntuguide. It was consistent and the done thing. That did work. I am not hearing that is true for Automatix or Easyubuntu. Personally i've had problems with Automatix and so far easyubuntu seems ok, although there is something i don't want to get into here. But the point is how is a begiiner coming into ubuntu supposed to figure all this out and 'decide'
personally, i want what is the very best and i don't like being torn by this kind of choice. There is good choice and bad choice in my opinion. When it comes to codecs there should be at least one simple standard that is no quibble. I look for leardership and clear direction. i.e"no worries; this is how its done" Bang and it works. Not this wishy washy they all kinda work but none work all the time so just see what suits you and decide

sorry....

--
sophtpaw

sophtpaw
July 2nd, 2006, 01:59 AM
I know choice is the by-word of linux. But this is another case where choice is just an annoyance to the new user.
Proprietary formats/software, particularly mp3, wma, the software to play DVDs, java are all an integral part of a modern operating system. It is confusing, unneccessarily so, for the new user to face so many choices in installing these.

It would be nice if the community got together and recommended one of automatix / easy ubuntu / something else
for beginners.
It really is not fair to tell beginners to choose one.


Is this a sophisticated joke?
I have used automatix twice with no problem. But I would think twice before using software that has only been tested by 6 people. Clarify what you mean.

Is there any procedure for canonical to "officially" recommend one of these intallation scripts?

For the record, I only know automatix.
I'm with you on this. as a beginner one doesnt want the responsability and headache of figuring all the different choices and balancing the pros and cons to decide which suits best.One is inexperienced and just, obviously, wants what is best.
Personally, i'd be happy if propriety codecs were preinstalled like in Mepis or suse(am i right?) but there should be one simple standard at least that one is pointed to so one can go ahead and faithfully just execute that and get it over with.
Yes, Linux is about choice. But sometimes there can be too much choice. Its nice that we have lots of applications that all do one job to choose from for example, but ahhhh.....i'm wasting my breath again:oops:

sophtpaw
July 2nd, 2006, 02:45 AM
I guess part and parcel of using ubuntu/linux in general is to understand the notion of open source software versus proprietary software / proprietary formats.
But if you look at the main ubuntu page
http://www.ubuntu.com/desktop
it does not mention proprietary formats. "play your videos in Totem" it says. No, it does not. Not as installed from the CD rom.
I think there should be a note there to explain that proprietary software to play these formats can be downloaded using Bumps.

Once again, the user knows he/she wants to play dvd's mp3s and mpegs and avi. There is no benefit to the new user to be faced with choices here. Aysiu, a comparison to pasta is not valid.

But thank you for the link above which explains the difference between Automatix / Easy Ubuntu / Bumps. I learned a lot. For new users in future I will suggest Bumps first of all, and then careful consideration of what other features they need.

I hope you appreciate my point that the ability to play DVDs, mp3s, mpegs for better or for worse is generally expected as part of an operating system.
what happend to the good old ubuntuguide? that just used to work. I like copying and pasting those in too. Made me feel like a geek(using the command line that is):D

sophtpaw
July 2nd, 2006, 02:47 AM
While I have learned to manually install and configure all the stuff these utilities do, I simply don't see the point if there are tools that bundle all this together and do it for you.
So I don't think the only justification is to help the uninitiated, but to make life easier for those who don't get a kick out of configuring everything manually themselves.
I do not understand those who want to force people to do everything the hard way and "learn". Let everybody chose for themselves the degree they want to learn.
For my part I love these tools and congratulate the developers for making my life easier. I prefer to spend my time listening to my music and watching films rather than bashing away at the keyboard...
thank you...Well said:KS

sophtpaw
July 2nd, 2006, 02:51 AM
There was a time, too, when I was a "beginner" to pasta. Believe it or not, I didn't really eat pasta until college.

Would it have been unfair for someone to ask me which kind of pasta to eat? No. It would have been unfair if they just threw a bunch of names of pasta at me: "Do you want fusili, penne, ravioli, fettucini, gnocchi, or rotini?" What? What? What? I don't speak Italian? How am I supposed to know?

Aysiu, sorry, but your pasta metaphor is just baloney.

--
sophtpaw

ps. have you had tortelloni yet?

AlphaMack
July 2nd, 2006, 02:53 AM
I used Automatix once or twice with Breezy and not at all with Dapper as it wasn't available during the Beta and RC testing. I took the time to find all of the components I needed.

I can see Automatix/EU being useful when someone needs to quickly get an Ubuntu machine up and running as timely as possible such as after a clean install or if there are multiple installations (friends' computers?).

aysiu
July 2nd, 2006, 03:29 AM
No one has actually explained what's wrong with my pasta analogy.

The principle holds true--choice can be a good thing provided the choices are informed choices and not just esoteric names that mean nothing to the uninitiated.

manicka
July 2nd, 2006, 03:50 AM
I'd never really used any of these programs until recently when I started testing Automatix as an advisor to the project. It really has become a mature and slick program that does it's job nicely.

In the past I've also had a look at bumps and easyubuntu. I used bumps quite successfully with the devel versions of Dapper to install a couple of things.

My only criticism of Easyubuntu is that it desperately need to turned into a deb package for easier installation and use. Not that it isn't relatively easy to get going but for beginners a deb pckage has to be the best way to use a program such as this. Other than that it does what it does very well and reliably

In general though I agree that the unnecessary criticisms need to stop. Usually they are made by people who have neither used or understand the programs at all, but just get caught up in the FUD that is regularly propogated on IRC and other places.

Automatix is a forum community driven project and probably always will be. It's a symbol of what is great about these forums and this community in general.

K.Mandla
July 2nd, 2006, 06:13 AM
I used Automatix for a long time, until I realized that I wasn't learning the how's and why's of Ubuntu. I only knew how to install and set up things through the Automatix panel. And if something went wrong (which was exceedingly rare), I was at a loss.

So I stopped using it and tried to do the same things on my own. Automatix never did anything wrong or broke anything, and I would still recommend it to newcomers. It's a good place to start.

manicka
July 2nd, 2006, 07:59 AM
...I would still recommend it to newcomers. It's a good place to start.

Automatix is great for newbies and experienced users alike. For the more experienced is a nice easy way to set up multiple machines or test boxes as well :) Personally I'm over chasing down all the fixes/addons/codecs individually, but I agree that doing it yourself is a great way to learn :)

egon spengler
July 2nd, 2006, 11:08 AM
Automatrix didn't work on my vanilla Ubuntu 5.10 install, so I feel it needs a little more work before it's ready for J6P. It's a grand idea, and hopefully it will realize its full potential.

In all areas of your ife when something gives less than 100% satisfction do instantly make the grand statement of "Well this is clearly not ready for Joe pack" or is this just something that you reserve for these forums?

Personally I don't use Automatix and very likely never will but one thing that can't be denied is that 100s if not 1,000s of people (I have no real idea at all of how widespread it might be) have used it and found it to work perfectly for them. Did you consider that perhaps you might be in the minority and not the majority?

*tries new barnd of microwave popcorn*
*opens microwave to discover bag half full of unpopped kernels*
*logs into food and drink forum to declare brand x popcorn is not ready for Joe 6 pack*


I enjoy learning the how and why and doing things myself, but if I went to the car dealership for a new vehicle and they gave me a 90% complete machine, plus a map to the location of parts stores, and some manuals, I'd be less than thrilled. I see no reason to put new users through the pain of manually installing these things unless they are particularly interested in doing so.

Paul

I guess really the issue is as much that you made an uninformed choice as anything else. There are various other Linux distros out there that suport proprietary codecs that you could have installed instead of one that makes great bones about only supporting Free/Libre software. I really care very little for any of the philosophies that underpin ubuntu yet even I was able to stumble across that nugget of info before I installed it.

As I said, I'm thoroughly uninterested about the issues surrounding the support of certain codecs, that said I would never deny someone the right to run their distro as they see fit. If it really is that much of an issue to you then I think you should vote with your feet and use a distro that supports the codecs you need. Personally ubuntu doesn't meet my requirements as well as another distro does so I use that distro. People on here often talk about supporting Linux friendly hardware and I think this is essentially the same thing

cjm5229
July 2nd, 2006, 04:43 PM
I enjoy learning the how and why and doing things myself, but if I went to the car dealership for a new vehicle and they gave me a 90% complete machine, plus a map to the location of parts stores, and some manuals, I'd be less than thrilled. I see no reason to put new users through the pain of manually installing these things unless they are particularly interested in doing so.

Paul
I agree, a new user wants to have a system that works, if it doesn't work he isn't going to spend two months learning to make it work. If it does work, he will then take the time to learn what makes it work. If it doesn't work he will send a flaming message to ubuntuforums about "Linux is not ready for the desktop" and go back to the land of spyware and viruses, and we will spend more time answering his flameing than we would have answering his questions. EasyUbuntu, Bumps, and Automatix all work and all have a purpose, I have used all three, each one has different apps that can be put in and give you a computer that does what you need to start with, and then you will learn the "hard way" if you wish. Not everybody, though, wants to do everything the hardway. Ubuntu can be the easiest OS in existance to install and use software, or it can be the hardest, lets not try to force newcomers to think it is the hardest.

PS. aysiu, I get it, Give us a choice, and then explain the choices, I guess that's why they don't like Automatix too. I like pasta anyway.

prizrak
July 2nd, 2006, 05:16 PM
On the topic of things breaking. I did a fresh Dapper install on the desktop the other day (playing with LTSP). Did the updates and they broke the computer the new 25 kernel will not boot. So Automatix, EasyUbuntu, or apt-get anything can screw up there is no guarantee. Automatix that I ran to install all the other stuff worked flawlessly though.

aysiu
July 2nd, 2006, 05:38 PM
I'm with egon_spengler on this one. When someone asks if you're a god, say yes!

No, seriously. If people want codecs and such working "out of the box," they should use Mepis. Right now, it's based on Ubuntu, so it's probably the best of both worlds for that kind of user.

Vanilla Ubuntu will never, in the next few years, be the kind of distro that appeals to the masses for the very reason that it includes only open source software. A version of Ubuntu may be, though--distros based on Ubuntu may be.

Really, it doesn't matter if they included a link on the desktop that said, "How to get codecs and other proprietary things," that's still too much trouble for an average end-user who just wants "things" (Java, MP3, etc.) to work.

If you're using Ubuntu, A-B-E are nice things to have around, depending on your situation, but they shouldn't be included with Ubuntu, and they should not be blanket-recommended.

the_blue_pill
July 2nd, 2006, 07:25 PM
Really, it doesn't matter if they included a link on the desktop that said, "How to get codecs and other proprietary things," that's still too much trouble for an average end-user who just wants "things" (Java, MP3, etc.) to work.

If you're using Ubuntu, A-B-E are nice things to have around, depending on your situation, but they shouldn't be included with Ubuntu, and they should not be blanket-recommended.

Erm... Why?

I installed ubuntu on two boxes. The first time I did everything manually and it quickly got boring after a few dozen install watchamacallit codecs for this or that. The default ubuntu doesn't even come with midi support, which I'm certain is free with open sound libraries.

I discovered automatix and used it on the second box and it worked flawlessly. Maybe there's risk of breaking your dependencies but that happens even with apt - I had to force remove a couple of libraries myself and they were all command line apt-get installs. All software EULAS - including commercial - scream about how we're not supposed to hold them liable if it breaks our machine. Same warning applies, even moreso to free, open source code.

Curious about one thing... How does Mepis get away with the out-of-the-box proprietary codecs? Have they actually purchased the licences?

Johnsie
July 2nd, 2006, 07:44 PM
my two cents... Not everyone is computer literate. Things should be made AS SIMPLE as possible if this is trully to be "Linux for Humans"

Yes, there should always be the option to do things the nerdy way but new users who just want an easy working system should be catered for too.

I think having a GIU for dpkg in Dapper was one of the best ideas Ubuntu have implemented. It makes it really easy for beginners to install deb files.

So.... Waht I think the Ubuntu people should do is continue on that idea and add more similar features and improve on existing ones.

Make it that installing and configuring stuff is so easy that there is no need for programs like automatix and easyubuntu. That doesn't mean Ubuntu would be giving out things that they haven't paid roylaties for, just tht it would be pretty easy to plug them in.

Installing something in Windows is as easy as clicking an icon. Ubuntu could really learn some lessons from that.

Keep It Simple Stupid... Linux should not just be about "learning", it should also be about efficiency and easy of use.

prizrak
July 2nd, 2006, 09:40 PM
my two cents... Not everyone is computer literate. Things should be made AS SIMPLE as possible if this is trully to be "Linux for Humans"

Yes, there should always be the option to do things the nerdy way but new users who just want an easy working system should be catered for too.

I think having a GIU for dpkg in Dapper was one of the best ideas Ubuntu have implemented. It makes it really easy for beginners to install deb files.

So.... Waht I think the Ubuntu people should do is continue on that idea and add more similar features and improve on existing ones.

Make it that installing and configuring stuff is so easy that there is no need for programs like automatix and easyubuntu. That doesn't mean Ubuntu would be giving out things that they haven't paid roylaties for, just tht it would be pretty easy to plug them in.

Installing something in Windows is as easy as clicking an icon. Ubuntu could really learn some lessons from that.

Keep It Simple Stupid... Linux should not just be about "learning", it should also be about efficiency and easy of use.
You missed the point. Installing all of the things that Automatix does is extremely simple before Automatix it would take me no more than a 20 mins to install everything. Now that .deb's can be installed graphically it's even simpler. What Automatix does is simply give you a nice way of installing a bunch of programs at once. If you pay attention to what and how it installs, most of the stuff is in the official repos. There is stuff that LEGALLY cannot be put into repos by Canonical, it's not a question of ease of installation just legality. Installing those things is trivial once you find them online, the problem is looking for them. Automatix and Easy(K)Ubuntu just simplify the process and eliminate (sp?) the need for the user to search on his/her own. As any other piece of software it can of course screw up certain things.

aysiu
July 2nd, 2006, 09:53 PM
Curious about one thing... How does Mepis get away with the out-of-the-box proprietary codecs? Have they actually purchased the licences? You know, I have absolutely no idea. I don't know how PCLinuxOS gets away with it either.

I mean, I understand that Ubuntu doesn't include a lot of those codecs for philosophical reasons, but, as I understood it, licensing costs also figured into the picture.

How Mepis and PCLinuxOS remain cost-free is a mystery... unless they're simply breaking the law and hoping no one will prosecute.

ubuntu_demon
July 3rd, 2006, 01:09 AM
Hi,

I would like to bring this thread to your atttention :

CommonCustomizations - feedback request
http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=206535

It's about this specification for Edgy :
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CommonCustomizations

enyaw
July 3rd, 2006, 07:12 PM
No one has actually explained what's wrong with my pasta analogy..

Because your cooker doesn't produce a spaghetti which is "al dente."

aysiu...thank you...I love this...Hee!:)

Fiyawerx
July 5th, 2006, 09:45 PM
installing extra codecs is not nearly as difficult as installing car parts...

Depends on who you ask on that one ;)

aysiu
July 5th, 2006, 09:50 PM
Well, of course. If you ask the right person, you can get her to say that reading a column in a newspaper is more difficult than starting a fire with two rocks and one stick... maybe an illiterate girl scout.

From an empirical standpoint, clicking a few things with the mouse is easier to do as a task than installing a new timing belt.

Naturally, if you're a car mechanic who hates computers, you'll think the latter is easier. If you're a computer science major who rides only bicycles, then you'll think the former is easier.

I'm talking about for someone who's not intitiated in either task. And, if you mess up installing codecs, the worst that could happen is you get some error that you can't play back some media file. If you mess up installing a car part, your car could explode and kill you and nearby pedestrians.

prizrak
July 5th, 2006, 10:16 PM
Well, of course. If you ask the right person, you can get her to say that reading a column in a newspaper is more difficult than starting a fire with two rocks and one stick... maybe an illiterate girl scout.

From an empirical standpoint, clicking a few things with the mouse is easier to do as a task than installing a new timing belt.

Naturally, if you're a car mechanic who hates computers, you'll think the latter is easier. If you're a computer science major who rides only bicycles, then you'll think the former is easier.

I'm talking about for someone who's not intitiated in either task. And, if you mess up installing codecs, the worst that could happen is you get some error that you can't play back some media file. If you mess up installing a car part, your car could explode and kill you and nearby pedestrians.
Installing a timing belt is rediculously easy. I would rate it as about the same as installing codecs :) I think that is a very fitting analogy as people who do not have interest in working on their cars go to mechanics and have no complain whatsoever about it needing specialized knowledge. On computers however for some reason people expect to know all the under the hood stuff without taking the time to learn. I agree that USING a computer should be as easy as driving a car (which still requires learning) but to expect to be versed in under the hood things w/o any learning.

aysiu
July 5th, 2006, 10:22 PM
I beg to differ on that.

Installing codecs:
http://www.getautomatix.com/wiki/index.php/Installation

Changing a timing belt:
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa051102a_2.htm
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa051102a_3.htm

prizrak
July 5th, 2006, 11:40 PM
I beg to differ on that.

Installing codecs:
http://www.getautomatix.com/wiki/index.php/Installation

Changing a timing belt:
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa051102a_2.htm
http://autorepair.about.com/cs/doityourself/a/aa051102a_3.htm
I guess being both a motor head and a Linux geek I have no right to say which one would be easier ;)

aysiu
July 5th, 2006, 11:50 PM
I'll change an air filter. Now that's certainly easier than installing codecs!

prizrak
July 7th, 2006, 05:24 AM
I'll change an air filter. Now that's certainly easier than installing codecs!

Not on my Buick (the damn thing is by the front wheel down there somewhere).

kurniawands
July 28th, 2006, 09:12 AM
hmmm.... think it's getting hot here.... :eek:

as a newbie, i'll be glad if i can get answers on "newbie's" language. no this this this or that that that... kinda confusing for me, mostly when it's my first linux experience.

so, i think we must let newbies understand that linux (any distro) is about "a world of choices". many choices and many you can have.

once they have it in their mind, i don't think that these automatix,easyubuntu,bumps,aptitude thing should become a problem. they'll find which one makes them comfortable with...

on my first dapper (and linux! can you believe it?) experience (been 3 weeks now), i give easyubuntu a shot (because there is ubuntu in it's name, hahahah...), now, automatix, i haven't try bumps yet, but i still wondering why aptitude is much more comfortable for me and use automatix for something i don't know yet to find it's "terminal code".... cause it makes me "learn" and i love to learn :D

btw, aysiu..... what is mephis and what you mean by "installing code "out of box"" ?????

nicbink
July 28th, 2006, 09:46 AM
Linux is free and community driven. Many very talented people have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months/years getting it to where it is at now. And for the most part all without compensation. New users need to realize this, they need to also realize that it will take a bit of effort to make things work the way they want it too.

I used to be a Windows fan boy *ducks*. I was introduced to Linux a little over a year ago and started using it EXPECTING to run into bumps, hills, and mountains. I soon came to realize that everything could be resolved simply by searching (not asking) the internet, the amount of information/documentation out there was/is mind boggling. **i take that back there was one problem i never solved, NFS share constantly sending GETATTR calls to the server, but that's not the point**

This is not Windows, you (users who complain) did not pay for it nor support for it. You're probably using it because you were tired of not having choices with Windows and now you're complaining about having too many choices WTF???

Please realize that the majority of the problems beginners run into are due to closed drivers, codecs, and apps.

Do not complain to the community that's doing everything it can to work around these problems, complain to the companies that do not want to play along.

/rant

aysiu
July 28th, 2006, 04:18 PM
btw, aysiu..... what is mephis and what you mean by "installing code "out of box"" ????? Mepis is another Linux distribution. It used to be based on Knoppix but, as of last week, is now based on Ubuntu.

"Out of the box" means you can use the Mepis live CD or install it and be able to play MP3 music and watch Flash movies in Firefox right away.

You don't have to install extra packages to get those things to work. You don't have to use an installation script like Automatix or Easy Ubuntu to get those things to work.

Mepis aims at practical usability for the ex-Windows user who is attached to proprietary software and point-and-click methods. It's an excellent first distro for many users (it was my first distro).

Ubuntu aims at providing a solid and flexible base for second-tier beginners, intermediate, and expert users. It provides only free and open source software and a regular development and release cycle.

http://www.mepis.org/

Johnsie
July 28th, 2006, 04:28 PM
I think both programs are good... You should recommend your favourite but badmouthing another program just because you don't like people having a choice is just wrong.

Remember, people have put a lot of work into both projects and expect nothing in return.

mips
July 29th, 2006, 01:12 AM
I would just like to see a list of packages installed for each section.

treepolitik
March 11th, 2009, 12:56 AM
Linux is free and community driven. Many very talented people have spent countless hours/days/weeks/months/years getting it to where it is at now. And for the most part all without compensation. New users need to realize this, they need to also realize that it will take a bit of effort to make things work the way they want it to.

I agree heartily. The staff of the Forums, of Canonical, of the LoCo teams, (and anyone I missed) are to be commended. The issue is one of obtaining the information one needs. At one point, effort will fail without new information.

Sometimes it is like BitTorrent, where one says, "I unchoked you; why won't you seed me?" and then Ubuntu goes the way of intentional communities, because there aren't enough specialists to teach the entirety of certain areas 24/7.

Other times, it seems that contribution has been effective, but organization of instructions has not been adequate. If the organization of information is not efficient, the message is a lost packet, a nonverbal from another culture that is not understood.

Therefore, I have decided to propose a new user interface to compensate for the limited resources of others.

aysiu
March 11th, 2009, 01:02 AM
This is a three-year-old thread about a project that's been discontinued.