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coldstlouis
October 6th, 2012, 04:45 PM
Thoughts and notes for Mark Shuttleworth and/or Canonical …


Ubuntu can lead the way for write-once-run-anywhere operating systems by adding provisions for more mice and properly calling multi-touch routines from the mouse routines. Read on to consider some of the reasons why.


Why is Windows 8 so roundly reviled by so many users of desktop computers?


Because Win 8 left them out, that's why!


Think about it: Most of the bells, whistles and golly-wow stuff is intended for use with touch screens, slower and battery-limited processor and graphics power, small screen real estate and so on. Sure, we desktop users have hugely larger budgets for electrical, processor and graphics power, as well as memory and screen size – but we don't have touch screens, and many of the things that touch screens can brings us, mice and keyboards just can't.


Or can they – perhaps with a little help?


I'm thinking like this: Much of what touch screens do is exactly the same as what mice do – they capture gestures made by human hands. That means that, as long as you're capturing only one point of control, you can do exactly the same things with mice and touch screens. You may have to compensate for different viewing options and for different sized areas of control (hot spots), but there's no real difference for the computer. No, the difference comes in when you need multiple control points … like you do for all the multi-touch stuff. You know, the pinching to shrink and the spreading to grow, and like that. Anything of that sort, and you bang your head against the limitations of the traditional mouse/keyboard setup, because the mouse gives you the one and only point of control that you have.


Traditional software companies are disinclined to solve this problem, since they are being encouraged by the traditional hardware guys to drive the sales of new hardware by giving us software that older hardware can't run. If we want the problem solved, we'll need to do it ourselves.


Guess what? We can do it, and for little or no money per computer!


You see, in order to deal ourselves into the new bells and whistles, we need mostly (or only) to give ourselves more than one point of control – and for the desktop computer, this additional point of control is easily provided by a second mouse!


A second mouse will provide that much more gesture capture power, including provision for clicks and drags, and anything one could do with two fingers on the same hand one can do with two mice – so long as the mice were properly configured. In order for this method to work well, one mouse would have to become the left mouse, with its right button configured as its primary button (the one usually used for clicking and dragging purposes. I have seen Xfce attempt to address this shortcoming, but the proper configuration doesn't last; on the next reboot, all is forgotten, and the left mouse falls back into right-hand mode again, never to return. The fact that it works at all proves that the idea can work, though, and that means that Linux can do something that Linux has seldom – or never – done before: Lead the way for all the other platforms.


Gentle People: I give you … Multi-Mouse!


Put together support for two or more mice, making each one independently and persistently configurable. Give each mouse a unique and easily identifiable cursor. Two buttons pressed down should alert the system to be ready to do pinch/spread/multi-touch things. Otherwise, treat the mice like mice.


I figure that this should be resource friendly from the standpoint that most, if not all, of the routines used to make Multi-Mouse happen should already exist. Mice have been standard computer equipment for decades, and multi-touch routines have been written for years, so it should be mostly a matter of getting the mouse routines to call and pass data to the multi-touch routines when it's needed. And instead of shelling out big bucks for touch screens or touch mice or any other pricey hardware, the only hardware upgrade needed is a mouse, some of which I've seen for sale for three dollars. The price of admission is dirt cheap!


Along with provisions for staples like icons you can resize and other things to take advantage of desktop computer hardware when it's available, Multi-Mouse can be an enormous draw for desktop users. Imagine Ubuntu Unity being hailed, rather than panned! Could such capability be baked into Ubuntu for Android? If so, could it not be better than taking one's hands off the desktop to manipulate a touch screen?


While some desktop users just will not like the experiences that interfaces like Unity and Windows 8 provide, many others just need a way to tap into the new features in ways relevant to their systems. The old schoolers can work with MATE or Cinnamon and get their way, while the addition of a second mouse and a few lines of accommodating code can throw open the doors to multi-touch power for more daring souls. How hard would it be?

sandyd
October 6th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Not a support/ubuntu question - Moved to community Cafe

oldos2er
October 6th, 2012, 05:27 PM
Thoughts and notes for Mark Shuttleworth and/or Canonical

See http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/contact

DocThunderbird
October 6th, 2012, 05:46 PM
I think most organizations would find it cost beneficial to adopt ubuntu / libreoffice in favor of windows / office from microsoft. the cost and technical analysis would bear this out.

if an organization has 500,000 desktops/ laptops that would save somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 million/ annually.

Doc Thunderbird

whatthefunk
October 6th, 2012, 05:58 PM
Two mice? I need three hands for that. No thanks. Pass.

Mikeb85
October 6th, 2012, 07:41 PM
I think most organizations would find it cost beneficial to adopt ubuntu / libreoffice in favor of windows / office from microsoft. the cost and technical analysis would bear this out.

if an organization has 500,000 desktops/ laptops that would save somewhere in the neighborhood of $200 million/ annually.

Doc Thunderbird

LibreOffice kind of sucks. For the enterprise Google Docs is more useful.

And where do you get those numbers for the cost of MS Office? My father runs an 'enterprise' network, he gets MS Office licenses for $50/licence... Heck, my student copy of Office 2010 Professional cost only $100...

Microsoft products aren't particularly expensive, especially compared to paid Linux support from Red Hat, SUSE or Oracle...

deadflowr
October 6th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Something about two mice seems overly maniacal.
I can only picture myself laughing like a madman, bent on taking over the world.

alexfish
October 7th, 2012, 02:49 AM
Two mice? I need three hands for that. No thanks. Pass.

= one dead rat

that could be one hand free , that is mice ee . micy

how do you do you spell micy . is it missy or micy or rats , got it be easier rat + ratty

well got a new term , pinch two rats by the pincers , ensure it ain't a male , cos it will squeel , squeal . like you Know what , suppose it be different mouse with three tails

cos a combination of three has already been , Adjudicated as patentable ,by method

I here by declare , A method of Two Rats are better than Two mice.

Rats, Patentee. patent Applied for , all rights or lefts , + intellectual , as in Thickness

belongs to the Rat .

mr john
October 7th, 2012, 03:51 AM
Like Mark, but I take some things he says with a pinch of salt. He said something about Ubuntu aiming for 200 million users and then released Unity, something which actually scared many people away. He's very keen with what he does, but sometimes I don't think very realistic.




$200 million/ annually.

If they already paid for Windows they wouldn't be saving anything. They would just be throwing away something they actually paid for. In fact it would cost them more because it's never free to roll out an operating system on that many computers.

If they were using brand new computers with no O/S then they would save the cost of Windows/Office. However staff would need to be retrained, there may be issues opening MS Office files from customers/clients (OO is not 100% compatible with office formats), some industry specific software applications may not work eg. MailSort software, the choice of hardware devices would be extremely limited because all hardware would need to be Linux friendly, there is no Outlook, Access equivelents in Libre Office. It would be very challenging to push a free operating system onto that many people, because people actually like to have access to the expensive software applications.

coldstlouis
October 7th, 2012, 03:02 PM
Two mice? I need three hands for that. No thanks. Pass.

I agree that two mice isn't for everyone. The idea is versatility: Use two mice (with access to multi-touch gesture control) if you want to and stick with one mouse if that other mess isn't worth it to you.

One more thing that you can do in Linux that you can't do in Windows -- at least without paying a mint!

coldstlouis
October 7th, 2012, 03:06 PM
Something about two mice seems overly maniacal.
I can only picture myself laughing like a madman, bent on taking over the world.

"Gee, Brain, whad'ya wanna do t'night?"

"Same thing we do EVERY night, Pinky ..." :lolflag:

Seriously, though, the idea is to have the option to do whatever you want. One mouse is good for you? Great! Want to use two mice? Still great! All the Linux users win.

coldstlouis
October 7th, 2012, 03:08 PM
See http://www.canonical.com/about-canonical/contact

Thanks. I'll check this out.

whatthefunk
October 7th, 2012, 03:12 PM
I agree that two mice isn't for everyone. The idea is versatility: Use two mice (with access to multi-touch gesture control) if you want to and stick with one mouse if that other mess isn't worth it to you.

One more thing that you can do in Linux that you can't do in Windows -- at least without paying a mint!

Yes, but how many people want or need two mice? Very, very, very few. Should Canonical devote resources to developing dual mouse ability to appease 0.01% of their users? Their resources are better used in other areas in my opinion.

Paqman
October 7th, 2012, 06:36 PM
Er, so want to add an extra mouse so you can use touch gestures on a non-touch device? Can I ask why? What's so great about touch that means you want to try and replicate it?

coldstlouis
October 9th, 2012, 11:32 PM
Yes, but how many people want or need two mice? Very, very, very few. Should Canonical devote resources to developing dual mouse ability to appease 0.01% of their users? Their resources are better used in other areas in my opinion.

One could ask how many people wanted or needed mice or multi-touch when they first came out. I'm guessing some, but not many. And I know how much I scoffed when MacOS debuted. Windows, too. Now look -- you can find them almost anywhere. Besides, it's not about two mice. It's about multi-touch, and getting it on the desktop should people be interested. Mark Shuttleworth wants to get Ubuntu on 200 million devices? Maybe not leaving some of the potential market behind might help.

I've tried Windows 8, and I hate it! Maybe I'd hate it less if some of the new stuff for non-PC devices bled over into the PC camp. However, I know exactly what kind of chances there are for anything like Multi-Mouse to happen in Windows. Apple won't bother, either. The big boys don't need it.

Do the little guys? Don't know. Figured I'd put the idea out there somewhere, and if they think it's cool, they'll run with it.

coldstlouis
October 9th, 2012, 11:49 PM
Er, so want to add an extra mouse so you can use touch gestures on a non-touch device? Can I ask why? What's so great about touch that means you want to try and replicate it?

Want the truth? I'VE NEVER TRIED multi-touch! No smart phone, no tablet -- nothing! Even so, it looks cool, and I have to figure that something about it has to be practical. Cool-looking but useless doesn't tend to last too long in this marketplace. I figure that the hardware is dirt cheap and easy to get, so the big thing would be the software. My hope is that much existing code could be reused with little effort. Should that be true, Multi-Mouse could make for a more unified experience across platforms, lessening the impact of trying to adapt to using a device different from the ones you're used to. It also might make it easier to write OSes and applications once and run them anywhere. That last thing seems like it would be worthwhile for the software guys to shoot for, since it would reduce their costs.

The big guys don't need anything like this, so they won't bother. If the smaller guys can't do this right, they can scuttle the project quietly or simply not bother -- no problem. But if they can do it right, and they choose to, they can steal a march on the big guys. With the Ubuntu for Android initiative, Ubuntu may have many new eyes on it. If the owner of these new eyes decide to try out Ubuntu on their desktop machines, a more consistent experience between the two platforms might make the difference between their keeping Ubuntu on those machines and their hosing it off in disappointment or disgust.

Face it: You want to take over the world, you gotta think of some powerful, weird stuff!

whatthefunk
October 10th, 2012, 12:51 AM
What would you do with two mice that you cant do with one? How would this improve functionality?