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Geffers
June 2nd, 2012, 09:05 AM
Over time all operating systems appear to implement changes which appear to have no advantage and cause confusion.

Why have the close, minimise and maximise icons been put on the left rather than the right. Why has the UbuntuOne client icon been moved from the preferences to somewhere else.

I am using Gnome-Panel, the task bar properties used to be accessible via the right click, now it is Alt-Super Key-Right click, why on earth that change.

These are just three and I can see no point in any of them.

Geffers

nothingspecial
June 2nd, 2012, 09:06 AM
Thread moved to Recurring Discussions.

MadmanRB
June 2nd, 2012, 06:03 PM
Over time all operating systems appear to implement changes which appear to have no advantage and cause confusion.

Why have the close, minimise and maximise icons been put on the left rather than the right. Why has the UbuntuOne client icon been moved from the preferences to somewhere else.

I am using Gnome-Panel, the task bar properties used to be accessible via the right click, now it is Alt-Super Key-Right click, why on earth that change.

These are just three and I can see no point in any of them.

Geffers

Well why does the upcomming Windows 8 use metro?
Why doesnt it have a traditional start menu?
Why doesnt windows 8 have better implementation for multiple windows?
Heck why did we even need Windows Vista or 7 when they could have just patched XP and fixed all of its issues?
Why did AERO have to be invented?

vasa1
June 2nd, 2012, 06:09 PM
Over time all operating systems appear to implement changes which appear to have no advantage and cause confusion.

Why have the close, minimise and maximise icons been put on the left rather than the right. Why has the UbuntuOne client icon been moved from the preferences to somewhere else.

I am using Gnome-Panel, the task bar properties used to be accessible via the right click, now it is Alt-Super Key-Right click, why on earth that change.

These are just three and I can see no point in any of them.

Geffers
Well, sometimes what seems unnecessary may be part of an overall scheme or philosophy and may not be apparent to the end user who isn't involved in development.

MadmanRB
June 2nd, 2012, 06:43 PM
I think in Ubuntu's case its all a matter of wanting to stand out and be noticed, to create something unique among the many faceless systems out there.
After all windows itself has usually tried to create what its developers think is right for its consumer, they put things in certain places because by now they are standard.
Take for example the start menu, up until windows 8 its been a staple of the windows experience and yet it took a little while to develop it as windows versions before 95 didnt have one.
What about the window buttons?
again most of the buttons windows is known for took a little be to develop, heck the close button also took until 95 to be fully implemented.
Ubuntu is undergoing a similar transition period.

rg4w
June 2nd, 2012, 07:49 PM
The question is unanswerable, as the title of the thread presupposes an answer unrelated to the actual design goals being addressed.

I could take the time to explain the "why" behind each of the specific changes noted culled from interviews, design notes, etc, but the OP seems to have their mind made up before posting so it hardly seems worth the effort.

If I misunderstand please let me know and I'd be happy to help, provided help is indeed what you're looking for.

Geffers
June 2nd, 2012, 08:04 PM
Why did AERO have to be invented?

They had an excess of bubbles.

Geffers

DouglasDaniel
June 2nd, 2012, 08:43 PM
I think people are missing the point of the question. The OP is not saying things shouldn't change and be improved upon, they're simply saying that there are changes that seem to be made for change's sake, rather than to fit into some design goal.

I happen to think they're right in regards to the minimise buttons etc being shifted to the left. As soon as I upgraded and found my buttons on the "wrong" side, the first thing I did was try to put them back on the right-hand side. This betrays the fact that I come from a Windows background rather than from a MacOS one, of course, but it's also true that Ubuntu DID once have this as the default layout.

The reason I always change the buttons back is because I see no discernible purpose for this change. It seems very much like the kind of change developers make just for the sake of doing something, and as a developer, I know fine there are often no real tangible benefits behind changes, particularly as developers find it so difficult to think like a user. Even when changes are made with some genuine user-improvement basis, often these benefits prove not to be worth the hassle to the user of having to readjust their ways to accommodate the change.

Too often, a developer thinks "I'm going to move this button to over here, because I want to put something else in its current place instead - it's only a wee button and they'll learn where to find it again", whereas the user thinks "why did they have to change that? I like the button there. Why not put the new button here instead?"

Surely everyone's been in a supermarket or shop and found everything has suddenly changed, and been annoyed by that fact? The shop managers think they're helping you out by putting things you maybe don't usually see in a more prominent position, but in reality folk just get annoyed at having to find where everything is again. Same goes for operating systems.

kurt18947
June 2nd, 2012, 09:16 PM
Actually I think moving the buttons and making menus floating does have a purpose. It saves one line on a small screen. In spite of Canonical's initial denial about Unity being intended for small screens, recent talk about smart phones & tablets sure seems like small screens are indeed on Canonical's radar screen.

MadmanRB
June 3rd, 2012, 12:41 AM
I think people are missing the point of the question. The OP is not saying things shouldn't change and be improved upon, they're simply saying that there are changes that seem to be made for change's sake, rather than to fit into some design goal.

I happen to think they're right in regards to the minimise buttons etc being shifted to the left. As soon as I upgraded and found my buttons on the "wrong" side, the first thing I did was try to put them back on the right-hand side. This betrays the fact that I come from a Windows background rather than from a MacOS one, of course, but it's also true that Ubuntu DID once have this as the default layout.

The reason I always change the buttons back is because I see no discernible purpose for this change. It seems very much like the kind of change developers make just for the sake of doing something, and as a developer, I know fine there are often no real tangible benefits behind changes, particularly as developers find it so difficult to think like a user. Even when changes are made with some genuine user-improvement basis, often these benefits prove not to be worth the hassle to the user of having to readjust their ways to accommodate the change.

Too often, a developer thinks "I'm going to move this button to over here, because I want to put something else in its current place instead - it's only a wee button and they'll learn where to find it again", whereas the user thinks "why did they have to change that? I like the button there. Why not put the new button here instead?"

Surely everyone's been in a supermarket or shop and found everything has suddenly changed, and been annoyed by that fact? The shop managers think they're helping you out by putting things you maybe don't usually see in a more prominent position, but in reality folk just get annoyed at having to find where everything is again. Same goes for operating systems.

Yes but thats the problem with you windows users, you think everything has to work exactly like windows and if there is any change whatsoever you go back to windows because its something you are used to.
I do not share this mindset, I mean whats the big deal the buttons are just in another place its not like they have gone away never to return

wilee-nilee
June 3rd, 2012, 02:14 AM
Not every change will suit everybody, nor make sense as well.

Geffers
June 3rd, 2012, 10:11 PM
Too often, a developer thinks "I'm going to move this button to over here, because I want to put something else in its current place instead - it's only a wee button and they'll learn where to find it again", whereas the user thinks "why did they have to change that? I like the button there. Why not put the new button here instead?"

Totally agree but also appreciate there may be reaons that are not obvious.




Surely everyone's been in a supermarket or shop and found everything has suddenly changed, and been annoyed by that fact? The shop managers think they're helping you out by putting things you maybe don't usually see in a more prominent position, but in reality folk just get annoyed at having to find where everything is again. Same goes for operating systems.

I think though, with supermarkets they want you to browse as you are more likely to buy more than you intended.

Geffers

Geffers
June 3rd, 2012, 10:18 PM
Yes but thats the problem with you windows users, you think everything has to work exactly like windows

Strange you say 'You windows users', this is a Linux forum so we are Linux users.

Anyway, just because windows does something doesn't make it bad.

Geffers

Basher101
June 3rd, 2012, 10:22 PM
Strange you say 'You windows users', this is a Linux forum so we are Linux users.

Anyway, just because windows does something doesn't make it bad.

Geffers

That is very subjective

If something is bad or not depends completeley on perspective..it may seem like the best thing ever for some, for others it may seem as the worst

aysiu
June 4th, 2012, 01:03 AM
I think you misunderstood Geffers' point, which is that Windows can do things well. Something being a part of Windows doesn't necessarily make it bad.

cariboo907
June 4th, 2012, 03:13 AM
Strange you say 'You windows users', this is a Linux forum so we are Linux users.

Anyway, just because windows does something doesn't make it bad.

Geffers

Windows isn't bad, but for those of us that don't use it daily or even weekly, it feels weird going back to it. Windows is essentially the same as it has been since Windows 95. That's why I use a Linux distribution, I wanted something different, and now I finally have it. I like all the major controls being on the left (I'm using Unity), I don't have to move my mouse all over the screen to do simply things, and the only time I have to go way over to the right, is to shut the system down or set the focus for a window, the rest of the time the mouse cursor is in the left portion of the screen.

jockyburns
June 4th, 2012, 10:49 AM
I think the OP misses the fact that with Ubuntu, you as the user , have the choice whether to upgrade to the next version.
I'm still using 11.04, (just because I'm happy with it)
You don't have to upgrade every 6 months.
If it ain't broke,, Don't try to fix it.

3rdalbum
June 4th, 2012, 11:08 AM
Over time all operating systems appear to implement changes which appear to have no advantage and cause confusion.

Why have the close, minimise and maximise icons been put on the left rather than the right.

Originally moved to make way for "windicators" that never actually eventuated. Windicators were on the right, because indicators are on the right. You may notice, these days, that all window management operations are on the left. That's consistency, and it's one of the things people complained was missing in Linux.


I am using Gnome-Panel, the task bar properties used to be accessible via the right click, now it is Alt-Super Key-Right click, why on earth that change.

Ever gone to a Windows user's house and found their taskbar on the left of the screen, and they offer you $20 if you can put it back to the bottom? I have! I didn't take the money though.

If a lot of users accidentally move the panel (or remove the notification area, which Linux newbies used to do) without knowing what they've done or how to reverse the action, then it's obviously too easy to make that change in the first place.

I can understand why Gnome's developers changed it to make it just slightly less discoverable. For a power user, they'll still be able to find out how to add applets and customise their panel. For new users, they're less likely to make changes accidentally. Experienced users also have the benefit of not having to answer the question "I just lost my panel and I can't connect to the internet, HELP!" anymore.


These are just three and I can see no point in any of them.

It just comes down to whether it's better to keep things the same they were, even if they were flawed; or to fix them. Considering that flawed concepts and inconsistent behaviour will continue to trip up new users forever, and fixing these things will only trip up existing users for a week or two, the latter is usually the better option.

inashdeen
June 4th, 2012, 11:11 AM
Short note. what's wrong with changes. i love em.

Geffers
June 4th, 2012, 12:16 PM
I like all the major controls being on the left (I'm using Unity), I don't have to move my mouse all over the screen to do simply things, and the only time I have to go way over to the right, is to shut the system down or set the focus for a window, the rest of the time the mouse cursor is in the left portion of the screen.

Now there is a logical reason, never gave that one a thought, however, I don't use Unity as my main manager so not an advantage for me - I have found how to change it to my liking.

Geffers

inashdeen
June 4th, 2012, 03:22 PM
yeah Gaffers, I find this true too

I like all the major controls being on the left (I'm using Unity), I don't have to move my mouse all over the screen to do simply things, and the only time I have to go way over to the right, is to shut the system down or set the focus for a window, the rest of the time the mouse cursor is in the left portion of the screen.

In Windows, I find it a nuisance that I have to move my mouse to the right every now and then, but in Ubuntu, it simply staying in the left, hence doesn't distract me in my work and improve my speed. I had never like Unity, but my perspective change since 12.04. :)