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vasa1
May 30th, 2012, 07:37 PM
"The more you look at combining the tablet and the PC, the more the baggage from the past affects the product. If you force them together, the tablet and PC can't be as good as they can be."
Source: quoted from http://blogs.computerworld.com/20241/apples_tim_cook_windows_8_tablets_will_be_10_years _behind_the_times

But then isn't that how he may also be feeling about Unity?

not found
May 30th, 2012, 07:45 PM
Thread moved to Recurring Discussions.


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forrestcupp
May 30th, 2012, 08:42 PM
But then isn't that how he may also be feeling about Unity?

I'm sure Tim Cook cares a lot more about Windows 8 than he does Unity.

MisterGaribaldi
May 30th, 2012, 09:34 PM
First off, I think a lot of people are looking at Tim Cook as either being the "next Steve Jobs" or assuming he *wants* to be the next Steve Jobs. I don't follow him enough to know what his thought process is in this regard, but what I can say with some assurance is that the jury is out on if he's an idea-man himself, as well as whether he can fill Steve Jobs' leadership shoes. It's too soon to tell.

Now, all that being said, my take is that he's probably right, at least on some level. I mean, take a look at Chrome OS. It, in theory, is supposed to scale from something like a smart phone on one end of the spectrum to a full-blown computer on the other end. I don't think that will work out so well for two reasons: first off, no matter the hardware, you can't leave all of your apps in the cloud because some stuff has to be local, and a lot of other stuff sees its usefulness suffer or just go right out the window if it isn't local. Secondly, most people probably wouldn't want the same OS on their computer that they might want on their smartphone / tablet / both. I know *I* wouldn't.

And, it isn't just the OS, it's the UI. It should be painfully obvious to everyone on this board that even in Linux not everyone wants a unified UI across all device form-factors, otherwise you'd see G3/Unity universally praised.

Windows 8 will likely be something of a success on the desktop, but that's just because we live in a world of mindless sheep who are already used to Windows on their desktop systems. This will just be the "latest, greatest" thing. Just like 7 was. Just like Vista was. Just like XP was.

Frankly, unless Apple and Google really screw up somehow, it'll be a cold day in h*** before Microsoft dominates or even seriously competes off the desktop.

Linuxratty
May 30th, 2012, 09:48 PM
first off, no matter the hardware, you can't leave all of your apps in the cloud because some stuff has to be local, and a lot of other stuff sees its usefulness suffer or just go right out the window if it isn't local. Secondly, most people probably wouldn't want the same OS on their computer that they might want on their smartphone / tablet / both. I know *I* wouldn't.

And, it isn't just the OS, it's the UI. It should be painfully obvious to everyone on this board that even in Linux not everyone wants a unified UI across all device form-factors, otherwise you'd see G3/Unity universally praised.
.

=D>

Well said. I agree.
But I don't see anything changing and I expect more of the same in years to come.

codingman
May 30th, 2012, 10:43 PM
First off, I think a lot of people are looking at Tim Cook as either being the "next Steve Jobs" or assuming he *wants* to be the next Steve Jobs. I don't follow him enough to know what his thought process is in this regard, but what I can say with some assurance is that the jury is out on if he's an idea-man himself, as well as whether he can fill Steve Jobs' leadership shoes. It's too soon to tell.

Now, all that being said, my take is that he's probably right, at least on some level. I mean, take a look at Chrome OS. It, in theory, is supposed to scale from something like a smart phone on one end of the spectrum to a full-blown computer on the other end. I don't think that will work out so well for two reasons: first off, no matter the hardware, you can't leave all of your apps in the cloud because some stuff has to be local, and a lot of other stuff sees its usefulness suffer or just go right out the window if it isn't local. Secondly, most people probably wouldn't want the same OS on their computer that they might want on their smartphone / tablet / both. I know *I* wouldn't.

And, it isn't just the OS, it's the UI. It should be painfully obvious to everyone on this board that even in Linux not everyone wants a unified UI across all device form-factors, otherwise you'd see G3/Unity universally praised.

Windows 8 will likely be something of a success on the desktop, but that's just because we live in a world of mindless sheep who are already used to Windows on their desktop systems. This will just be the "latest, greatest" thing. Just like 7 was. Just like Vista was. Just like XP was.

Frankly, unless Apple and Google really screw up somehow, it'll be a cold day in h*** before Microsoft dominates or even seriously competes off the desktop.
+1

Windows 8 is just going to be a passing fad, just like the rest were, it's not gonna become some sort of landmark for microsoft, not like when windows 3.0 hit. Anyways, we all still have our linux systems, right ;)

MadmanRB
May 30th, 2012, 11:38 PM
I dont think windows 8 will go that far, people would just be too confused by it if they have it on their desktop.

KiwiNZ
May 31st, 2012, 12:11 AM
+1

Windows 8 is just going to be a passing fad, just like the rest were, it's not gonna become some sort of landmark for microsoft, not like when windows 3.0 hit. Anyways, we all still have our linux systems, right ;)

yep Win XP, Win7 just passing fads

aysiu
May 31st, 2012, 12:26 AM
yep Win XP, Win7 just passing fads
It seems you deliberately didn't mention Windows ME or Windows Vista.

KiwiNZ
May 31st, 2012, 12:35 AM
It seems you deliberately didn't mention Windows ME or Windows Vista.

They were abominations that I have removed all trace of from my life.:p

MisterGaribaldi
May 31st, 2012, 02:07 AM
It seems you deliberately didn't mention [CENSORED] or [CENSORED].

Sorry, what did you say? It didn't come through on my end.

codingman
May 31st, 2012, 03:54 AM
They were abominations that I have removed all trace of from my life.:p

Me too :p

Mikeb85
May 31st, 2012, 06:27 AM
"The more you look at combining the tablet and the PC, the more the baggage from the past affects the product. If you force them together, the tablet and PC can't be as good as they can be."
Source: quoted from http://blogs.computerworld.com/20241/apples_tim_cook_windows_8_tablets_will_be_10_years _behind_the_times

But then isn't that how he may also be feeling about Unity?

To a certain degree he is right. As for Unity/Ubuntu, it won't work as well on a tablet. Unity definitely shines with the keyboard shortcuts and the ability to use dash, I think UIs like iOS, Lenovo's version of Android, Win8, and other customized UIs are better suited. Also, compared to things like Gnome 3, Unity is fairly traditional in alot of ways.

forrestcupp
May 31st, 2012, 02:18 PM
It seems you deliberately didn't mention Windows ME or Windows Vista.

Windows ME was crap. But Vista was only bad because people were told that it was bad. People believe what they are told. In my experience, Vista was a decent OS, especially after SP1. It wasn't nearly as good as 7, but it also wasn't nearly as bad as what people were told to believe that it was.

codingman
May 31st, 2012, 06:42 PM
Windows ME was crap. But Vista was only bad because people were told that it was bad. People believe what they are told. In my experience, Vista was a decent OS, especially after SP1. It wasn't nearly as good as 7, but it also wasn't nearly as bad as what people were told to believe that it was.

Decent but SLOW on laptops.

MisterGaribaldi
June 1st, 2012, 04:13 AM
IIRC, WinXP is an updated version of "what they were trying for in WinME" combined with what they had done in WinNT with Win2K.

As Windows releases go, I actually liked (for Windows, not for my own personal system) Win2K. It was good, solid, stable, and didn't do any crazy, stupid stuff. I honestly haven't cared for a single version of Windows before or since.

3rdalbum
June 3rd, 2012, 12:14 PM
"The more you look at combining the tablet and the PC, the more the baggage from the past affects the product. If you force them together, the tablet and PC can't be as good as they can be."
Source: quoted from http://blogs.computerworld.com/20241/apples_tim_cook_windows_8_tablets_will_be_10_years _behind_the_times

But then isn't that how he may also be feeling about Unity?

Not really. Unity is completely new and keeps almost no baggage from the past. It can also alter itself for different hardware (e.g. on a touchscreen, it may have Locally Integrated Menus rather than hide-show global menus).

However, he might be talking about Ubuntu in general as all the programs for it are "baggage" that may not work correctly on a tablet.

It's a bit hypocritical for him to talk about how merging the PC and the tablet is a bad idea. Isn't that what his company is doing with Mac OS X?

MisterGaribaldi
June 3rd, 2012, 10:33 PM
Not in the direction I think you may mean, or think that he meant.

Other than some core structural things which were useful and worth porting, iOS and Mac OS X are two relatively separate OSs. Apple is in the process of bringing over some of the things from iOS's UI to Mac OS X, but only as additions to what exists, not as a replacement for it. They're also relatively trivial things. In a way, I think they're handling this the way Ubuntu and Gnome Project should be: maintain the present UI standard (a la Gnome 2.x) but have a Gnome 3/Unity mode the user can choose to invoke, but don't make them mutually exclusive.

Also, by getting rid of what they've gotten rid of, it's making it hard to do desktop sharing and some other types of things that have been part-and-parcel of X for so long almost nobody can remember a time when they weren't there. I think that the Unity / HUD thing might be useful as an adjunct, and would have been willing to entertain it as such, but not as a replacement.

However, Tim wasn't speaking of Linux, but of Windows, and he was saying you are ill-advised to try and have one monolithic UI for everything because it either becomes a compromise between what different form factor hardware can do, or it works well on A but lousy on B and so then B suffers and doesn't deliver the best experience and set of functionality possible.

Dr. C
June 3rd, 2012, 11:36 PM
They were abominations that I have removed all trace of from my life.:p

One has to give Windows Vista however some credit. It is the only version of Windows that correctly found the driver to my HP Laserjet 3015 Printer shared via SAMBA on gNewSense right out of the box.

To make Windows 7, XP or 2000 work with this printer I have to use the driver for another HP printer.

Having said this I must agree that Windows Vista is a DRM infected abomination.

screaminj3sus
June 6th, 2012, 03:08 PM
They were abominations that I have removed all trace of from my life.:p

Vista actually wasn't bad. Under the hood its very similar to windows 7, and performs similarly. Windows 7 refined the UI quite a bit and made some slight performance optimizations.

Vista suffered from very poor release drivers, and OEM's putting out "vista certified" hardware with 512mb of ram.

The only problem I had with vista, besides the poor release drivers was the annoying "folder view bug" with windows explorer.

zombifier25
June 9th, 2012, 03:12 PM
Vista was (thought to be) bad because XP overshadowed it with low hardware requirements and high compatibility with apps (some of my Windows friends said that Vista is the worst flatform for gaming ever), and because 7 overshadowed it with superior features and a much better strategy at Microsoft's end. At the time of 7, most people can afford 1 GB RAM already.

Mikeb85
June 16th, 2012, 05:26 PM
The more I use Windows 8 the more I think that Windows will once again consolidate their grip over everything. It's the best Windows I've used, fast, stable, the metro interface is definitely growing on me as I get used to it (search and launching programs works similar to Gnome Shell or Unity), I've always thought live tiles were a great idea.

Nowadays I've got more used to things like Flipboard, or the stock ticker app on my Android smartphone, and of course Windows 8 lets you use smartphone/tablet-ish apps over all your platforms, and still use desktop apps. I need Windows for certain things, so I'm sure no matter what I'll at least have Windows 8 as a VM, but I find myself actually using some of the metro apps daily (and enjoying it)...

And while Windows 8 is rubbish with a mouse/keyboard, it's brilliant with a touchpad/keyboard...

MisterGaribaldi
June 17th, 2012, 05:08 AM
From a general market standpoint, the only thing standing between Microsoft and complete and total domination on the desktop is Apple.

Of course, everyone here seems keen to try and write off the desktop now as irrelevant because, hey, it's the age of the smart phone and the tablet. Right? Well...

Microsoft is going to continue to dominate on the desktop. They can put out anything they want, and most people will have no clue (nor care to have a clue) that there's any other options for them. What exactly is it you folks think is going to happen?

Now, if we're talking about smart phones and tablets, then I really wouldn't take this threat too terribly seriously. Microsoft has yet to demonstrate any kind of competence in those areas, and so long as Google and Apple keep on doing their jobs and making the right sort of decisions, I don't see the situation changing. Heck, Microsoft as you'll all recall has written off tablets as not even being relevant. (Translation: we can't figure out what we're doing, so we'll just tell our customers to ignore the platform instead.)

I'm not sure what more it's going to take to convince the rest of the Linux community that this is their golden opportunity to really do something in the tablet space. Your only real competition thus far is Apple (yeah, I know, I know, Google's got Android all over tablet-ville, too) but most people I know or have seen out there don't have a non-iPad tablet.

Somewhere, there's another UF thread floating around with my recommendations if I could issue three commands to Canonical. Let me re-emphasize and expand: If I could have my way, one thing in particular I would do would be to move into tablets in a BIG way, and maybe even spin off Ubuntu on the Desktop to a separate entity, like RedHat did with Fedora, and then put as many resources as I could that I wasn't already committing to servers and B2B operations into tablets. Linux on the tablet -- any Linux on the tablet -- has a long way to go before it will be taken serious in the market.