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Colo2
May 22nd, 2012, 10:27 AM
Do you think there'll be a time when Wine runs everything fine?

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 10:30 AM
No, you can't emulate every undocumented "feature" of windows, hw access will always be problematic and ms keeps changing api so it's hard for wine devs to keep up.

Colo2
May 22nd, 2012, 10:38 AM
Reason I was asking is, I've noticed massive improvements over the years, and wondered whether they were working up to perfection!

Erik1984
May 22nd, 2012, 10:41 AM
No. It's reverse engineering after all. Like Roelforg says they have little documentation to go on when implementing certain Windows functions. Plus Linux and Windows are just totally different operating systems. Call me captain obvious for stating the obvious but people tend to forget Windows and Linux are just not the same.

Erik1984
May 22nd, 2012, 10:43 AM
Reason I was asking is, I've noticed massive improvements over the years, and wondered whether they were working up to perfection!

They are certainly doing a good job! I have always found Wine impressive, even years ago. But perfection is a different matter.

Paqman
May 22nd, 2012, 10:44 AM
Bottom line is that Wine is fundamentally a massive kludge. I think it's a major achievement that it runs things as well as it does.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 10:48 AM
Bottom line is that Windows is fundamentally a massive kludge. I think it's a major achievement that wine emulates things as well as it does.

This is a little more accurate. ;)

Colo2
May 22nd, 2012, 10:48 AM
Yeah. Don't worry, I'm not one of those idiots who complain that Linux sucks because it can't run my .exe.

Paqman
May 22nd, 2012, 10:56 AM
This is a little more accurate. ;)

Well, I'm not an expert on the inner workings of Windows (and maybe you are) but recent versions of Windows actually work fine for me when I use them. It has its annoying points, but so do all OSes.

I know saying this is sacrilege on a Linux forum, but I really can't be bothered being one-eyed today.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 11:04 AM
Well, I'm not an expert on the inner workings of Windows (and maybe you are) but recent versions of Windows actually work fine for me when I use them. It has its annoying points, but so do all OSes.

I know saying this is sacrilege on a Linux forum, but I really can't be bothered being one-eyed today.

My school laptop runs w7 and for it's usage (only word+pdf+email (my school practically runs on word)) it works...
But go anything further than those things.
Someone once said that windows is just a "nice shell", i agree.

It works for what it does though... But if you want to go any further than the basic wallpaper change and mainstream hw, you're stuck.

MisterGaribaldi
May 22nd, 2012, 12:41 PM
This is a little more accurate. ;)

Um, no, and no by definition. Wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator" (http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths#head-7c9ecddfaff60d8891414b68d74277244e7109eb).

VTPoet
May 22nd, 2012, 01:35 PM
To your question: No.

But, as computers become more and more powerful (and for some users and maybe for all eventually), there's really no need for Wine. There are a variety of visualization options. I've always wanted to use WordPerfect in Wine, but nobody gives a rat's butt about WordPerfect (including Corel :popcorn:). In my case, it's faster and easier to run Win2000 if I want to use WordPerfect.

jeffus_il
May 22nd, 2012, 01:50 PM
It will mature in the bottle but will reach a point where it gets a bit vinegary...

I very seldom need wine as I find all the apps I need on Linux.. In an absolute emergency (which may be once a year), I use VirtualBox with XP, it may even be legal, since I did purchase a few copies of XP when I was young and stupid...

Colo2
May 22nd, 2012, 02:11 PM
It will mature in the bottle but will reach a point where it gets a bit vinegary...

I very seldom need wine as I find all the apps I need on Linux.. In an absolute emergency (which may be once a year), I use VirtualBox with XP, it may even be legal, since I did purchase a few copies of XP when I was young and stupid...



I'm sorry to hear that!

Evil-Ernie
May 22nd, 2012, 02:14 PM
WINE is great at what it does but if you need to run Windows software so badly I am sorry to say you need to get a copy of Windows up and running on a PC. Usually most software you want to run in Windows will have some kind of equivalent open source, http://www.osalt.com is a good place to look for alternatives :)

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 02:18 PM
Um, no, and no by definition. Wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator" (http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths#head-7c9ecddfaff60d8891414b68d74277244e7109eb).

I know what the acronym stands for, but my definition of emulator contains this:
"An emulator is a software program with the ability to run programs made for other/old OSes/Hardware".
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emulator (point 3) Agrees with me as well.

And, as far as i know, wine does exactly that.

phibxr
May 22nd, 2012, 02:22 PM
No. WINE is great, but the Windows API is a moving target. :)

Paqman
May 22nd, 2012, 02:33 PM
I know what the acronym stands for, but my definition of emulator contains this:
"An emulator is a software program with the ability to run programs made for other/old OSes/Hardware".
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emulator (point 3) Agrees with me as well.

And, as far as i know, wine does exactly that.

Perhaps you should send the Wine devs an email to inform them of their error. Those noobs!

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 02:35 PM
Perhaps you should send the Wine devs an email to inform them of their error. Those noobs!

N'ah, i'm not the type to whine (no pun intended) about stuff like this.

forrestcupp
May 22nd, 2012, 02:38 PM
Just when they were this close to being perfect, Microsoft had to come out with Windows 8. :D


Usually most software you want to run in Windows will have some kind of equivalent open source, http://www.osalt.com is a good place to look for alternatives :)

Most software has open source alternatives. I wouldn't say a lot of it is equivalent, though. Besides, some people spent hard earned money on software that they just like. We appreciate it when that software works in Wine. And when it comes to your favorite games, there can be no equivalent alternatives.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 02:40 PM
Just when they were this close to being perfect, Microsoft had to come out with Windows 8. :D


If not for a new win version, they'd probably just put a huge api-change in a service pack.

MisterGaribaldi
May 22nd, 2012, 03:35 PM
I know what the acronym stands for, but my definition of emulator contains this:
"An emulator is a software program with the ability to run programs made for other/old OSes/Hardware".
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emulator (point 3) Agrees with me as well.

And, as far as i know, wine does exactly that.

No, emulators emulate hardware, with firmware thrown in as necessary.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 03:36 PM
No, emulators emulate hardware, with firmware thrown in as necessary.

Then what's DOSbox according to you? Hmm? :roll:

forrestcupp
May 22nd, 2012, 03:40 PM
Then what's DOSbox according to you? Hmm? :roll:

A compatibility layer. :D

Actually, DOSbox does emulate hardware, and Wine does not. Wine is a compatibility layer that runs on top of your real hardware.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 03:49 PM
A compatibility layer. :D

Actually, DOSbox does emulate hardware, and Wine does not. Wine is a compatibility layer that runs on top of your real hardware.

I checked wikipedia, turns out we're both right! (:lol:)


Wine is a compatibility layer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibility_layer). It duplicates functions of a Windows computer by providing alternative implementations of the DLLs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic-link_library) that Windows programs call,[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] and a process to substitute for the Windows NT (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_NT) kernel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kernel_(computer_science)). This method of duplication differs from other methods that might also be considered emulation, where Windows programs run in a virtual machine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#cite_note-2) Wine is predominantly written using black-box testing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-box_testing) reverse-engineering, to avoid copyright (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright) issues.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#cite_note-3)
The name Wine initially was an acronym for WINdows Emulator.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#cite_note-4) Its meaning later shifted to the recursive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recursive_acronym) backronym (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backronym), Wine Is Not an Emulator in order to differentiate the software from other emulators.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wine_(software)#cite_note-5) While the name sometimes appears in the forms WINE and wine, the project developers have agreed to standardize on the form wine.

I bolded important stuff and underlined the key phrases.

Funny how stuff can turn out!

forrestcupp
May 22nd, 2012, 04:21 PM
I checked wikipedia, turns out we're both right! (:lol:)

I bolded important stuff and underlined the key phrases.

Funny how stuff can turn out!

They changed it because they realized they were wrong and it's not really an emulator. ;)

DOSbox emulates older IBM PC hardware so that old DOS programs that require things, like SoundBlaster 16 and other old hardware, can run properly on a modern computer. Wine is just a compatibility layer that doesn't emulate any hardware at all. Most emulators just emulate the hardware and use dumps of the actual OS that sat on top of the hardware.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 04:31 PM
They changed it because they realized they were wrong and it's not really an emulator. ;)

DOSbox emulates older IBM PC hardware so that old DOS programs that require things, like SoundBlaster 16 and other old hardware, can run properly on a modern computer. Wine is just a compatibility layer that doesn't emulate any hardware at all. Most emulators just emulate the hardware and use dumps of the actual OS that sat on top of the hardware.

I'm talking about a software-emulator and you about a hardware one,
that's why i'm starting to get confused.
Wine indeed doesn't emulate hw, it doesn't need to: It emulates the drivers and their abi.

Paqman
May 22nd, 2012, 04:49 PM
I'm talking about a software-emulator and you about a hardware one

What he's talking about is the normal definition of an emulator. Wine is not considered to be an emulator. It's a common misconception.

roelforg
May 22nd, 2012, 05:15 PM
What he's talking about is the normal definition of an emulator. Wine is not considered to be an emulator. It's a common misconception.

Fine, but you edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emulators#Operating_system_emulators
(hey, you say it's wrong, you change it)

Paqman
May 22nd, 2012, 05:32 PM
Fine, but you edit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emulators#Operating_system_emulators
(hey, you say it's wrong, you change it)

Indeed, it was wrong, and I've just edited the page. As I said, calling Wine an emulator is a common enough mistake and I can see why people do call it that, but it's still not strictly correct.

donkyhotay
May 22nd, 2012, 06:29 PM
Do you think there'll be a time when Wine runs everything fine?

no

wilee-nilee
May 22nd, 2012, 06:31 PM
I doubt it, dual boot if you want the best from both OS.

MisterGaribaldi
May 23rd, 2012, 02:47 AM
I had never even heard of DOSBox until you folks mentioned it. I'm trying right now to get Full Throttle to play on it. So far... it installs and the sound card test/setup worked fine. But the game itself... hmm.

As far as debating the finer points of what's a compatibility layer, what's an emulator, and where the line between the two is, it looks like the rest of you are doing a fine job of arguing the point. Me personally, I don't really care what Wikipedia says, or what anyone else says. I know what emulators are, and I really don't require anyone else's imposed, self-appointed expert opinion on the matter.

Thanks again, fellas, I'm gonna go riding that hog now!

MadmanRB
May 23rd, 2012, 04:20 AM
Wine wwill never be perfect as long as windows installers get more complicsted needing more from windows then what wine can provide.

Lucradia
May 23rd, 2012, 05:30 AM
No, you can't emulate every undocumented "feature" of windows, hw access will always be problematic and ms keeps changing api so it's hard for wine devs to keep up.

ReactOS aims to do it from scratch, just not via "Emulation" rather, ground-up reverse engineering. Unlike Wine, ReactOS is compatible with Windows Drivers. ReactOS and Wine however do share code.

doorknob60
May 23rd, 2012, 06:31 AM
As long as Windows continues to develop, Wine will always be a little behind, but it can certainly improve. Nothing is perfect. Windows isn't perfect, so even best case scenario is Wine acts just like Windows, that doesn't mean it's perfect, since Windows is far from perfect :P There's some things I can't get working in Windows but work fine in Wine. Rayman 3, an awesome game, works in Windows 7, but for some reason my PS2 controller doesn't work with the game in Win7. The controller works fine in Windows, just not with Rayman. Works perfect in Wine though :)

MadmanRB
May 23rd, 2012, 06:57 AM
ReactOS aims to do it from scratch, just not via "Emulation" rather, ground-up reverse engineering. Unlike Wine, ReactOS is compatible with Windows Drivers. ReactOS and Wine however do share code.

The problem with reactOS is that its very testy, I tried it and had countless stability issues.

mips
May 23rd, 2012, 09:42 AM
I had never even heard of DOSBox until you folks mentioned it. I'm trying right now to get Full Throttle to play on it. So far... it installs and the sound card test/setup worked fine. But the game itself... hmm.

You might have better luck with ScummVM http://www.scummvm.org/compatibility/DEV/ft/

Bandit
May 23rd, 2012, 02:41 PM
Um, no, and no by definition. Wine stands for "Wine Is Not an Emulator" (http://wiki.winehq.org/Debunking_Wine_Myths#head-7c9ecddfaff60d8891414b68d74277244e7109eb).


I know what the acronym stands for, but my definition of emulator contains this:
"An emulator is a software program with the ability to run programs made for other/old OSes/Hardware".
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/emulator (point 3) Agrees with me as well.

And, as far as i know, wine does exactly that.

MG is correct, WINE isnt trying to emulate an environment. Its backward engineered software that attempts to run the application natively by introducing linux kernel compatible libraries that would have otherwise be found and used on windows kernel. Hence the difference. A emulator would pretend to be something that it is not to fool a program into running. Its normal to confuse these because there is such a fine line between them and can easy be blurred.

@ Colo2,
Wine is getting better, the PPA 1.5 version actually runs two of my windows programs very well. GuildWars and Home Designer Pro CAD program. But its never going to be perfect. Just have to juggle multiple versions sometime to keep your programs all working.

rasmus91
May 23rd, 2012, 03:25 PM
assuming that you mean: "Will WINE ever be as good as windows at running windows applications?" by asking if it will ever be perfect, i will say no, i don't think so.

But the guys working on improving WINE is certainly doing an admirable job. and they are catching up. i remember trying WINE back in 2007. these 5 years have changed a lot.

Colo2
May 23rd, 2012, 04:22 PM
I don't know whether it's wine, or improved linux ATI drivers, but recently, my windows games have been performing A LOT better than they used to.

haqking
May 23rd, 2012, 04:26 PM
Perfection is subjective.

If one person complains its not perfect, and there are way too many idiots in the world for that to never happen,

Besides windows applications dont work "perfectly" in windows all the time so why should they in emulation ;-)

Linux applications dont work "perfectly" all the time either.

Peace

roelforg
May 23rd, 2012, 04:29 PM
Perfection is subjective.

If one person complains its not perfect, and there are way too many idiots in the world for that to never happen,

Besides windows applications dont work "perfectly" in windows all the time so why should they in emulation ;-)

Linux applications dont work "perfectly" all the time either.

Peace

+1

(deep, dude... deep... [-o<)

forrestcupp
May 23rd, 2012, 04:57 PM
I remember back when we thought that when Wine got to version 1.0 it would be perfect. We were wrong. :)

MisterGaribaldi
May 23rd, 2012, 06:38 PM
Alright, so let's get back to the original original point of this thread: "Will WINE ever be perfect?"

WINE is actually, in some cases, *more* perfect that Windows is because Microsoft, for all their much-vaunted backwards-compatibility focus, doesn't really make money by keeping all possible prior APIs, et al, in their OS, and arguably as they revise and improve their OS product, it is inevitable there will be breakage at some point WINE, on the other hand, has as its reason for existence, the job of providing a compatibility layer for the broadest possible spectrum of Win32 and Win64 applications. They, and other projects based off of them such as Crossover Office, can get away with this because they're not trying to deploy an operating system, just the fullest-possible range of reconstructed APIs and other necessary underpinnings to make software work.

The more that Microsoft, who is trying to put out an operating system, would attempt to stick into it, the larger the install gets, the more bloated it becomes, and the more system performance would suffer as a result.