Words, sensibilities, and miscreants

[machiner]

One of the most unsettling aspects of the late 1980's was the emergance of a behavioral conditioning method known as Political Correctness (PC).

It became taboo to use certain words, phrases and innuendos because of the potential of said words, phrases and innuendos to cause "harm" to the listener, passerby, conversation participant.

We all thought this was pretty funny.

Growing up in the 70's and 80's we called each other: "gay", "***" (which, of course, meant "different, odd, queer"), and we said things like, "what kind of loser builds a house on a muddy ledge?" And how about this gem: (referring to someone very fat lying on the beach) "Man, (s)he's asking an awful lot of the sun, ey?"

There was nothing right or wrong, deeply serious, or even emotional in saying something the might be construed as anti-pc....we just used the terms and phrases that the older kids, our parents, politicians, actors, and everyone else said. SOmeone called me a "***" in 2nd grade because he didn't like my winter boots.

WHat I didn't do is run home crying to my momma because Peter called me a "***". I either told him to KMA or said nothing, or I punched him in the face and 20 minutes later we were best friends. Nobody cared. We sucked it up and drove on.

After my first stint in the Army, while travelling the country, I noticed the gradual acceptance of curtailing one's mannerisms and speech in order to respect the "feelings" of people that might be listening. I witnessed conversations where a passerby might get offended overhearing something said by someone they were not engaged in conversation with. I saw fights because of this - I saw court cases and I have seen the degregration of Human Spirit and character because of this.

It is not within the confines (which is some vast arena) of Human Nature to care about the feelings of others.

Sure, we're pack animals and we love and we covet and guard. However we typically throw cold shoulders at others and rally hard with someone that happens to make sense for the moment. We'll fight to the death defending a concept that is not even ours - because someone with some charisma says to...for better or worse.

I became a teacher in the early 1990's and witnessed the mannerisms and habits of a younger generation. I also saw a giant schism between myself and my little brothers who are 5 years my junior (don't ever talk to me about break-dancing).

With this faction of kids I was instructing in the fine ways of advanced Biology, Group Dynamics, Ecology and Survival - I saw a wondorous community spirit and the recognition of the sensibilities of others.

I also saw the struggle of many (MANY) attempting to fit in with this new behavioural tenet. I saw my colleagues struggle with it and kids, too. I saw a nation of hate and people on guard. I saw miscreants go out of their way to complain or otherwise make trouble for others.

I noticed giant increases in kids labeled ADD, (don't get me started. As a Nurse I had to shoot a wonderful 14 year old boy daily with Thorazine. THORAZINE!) I saw ever expanding theses on Social Diseases and the population of Mental Hospitals grow exponentially.

I saw families, friends, communities ripped up for this new behavioral conditioning ploy....and I didn't (don't) like it.

PC reached it's height in the early '90's. Families had to find new ways to communicate (which is not necessarily a bad thing) and friends parted ways. The conversation of the day was superficial and people were troubled. There was a lack of honesty.

The most troubling aspect of all this was the way it was shoved down our throats by cry-babies that were socially mal-adjusted and it's acceptance by far-lefters. (Which I might be one. Or maybe not -- you have no idea)

I'm a poet. I write about the Human Condition. People have always told me that I'm beautiful, caring, profound and the like. The same people that kick dogs and beat their children. I feel a lot of things that many don't, I witness many things as well that go unnoticed by most...for whatever reasons. I have always been conscious of the feelings of others - but I also have always been intolerant of social misfits. As well, I am intolerant of bullies and stupidity...but what really unnerves me is when someone tells me to curb my speech. It is absolutely NOT my responsibility to cater to your feelings. It is YOUR responsibility to hear or not hear what I say - and feel how you will. Tell your story walking...

The power of words is incredible..."How did you fit your fat **** into those jeans?" or "Man, those jeans really highlight your curves." "The sun reflecting off your hair reveals to me all the beauty of nature and life".

Words Historically words have had terrific impact. Not so anymore. We have television and media bastardizing and corrupting - watering down, ostracising - the meanings and power of words.

"...and her last drops of blood echoed in the sewer. Caught. The refuse of the day."

When I wrote those words in 1993 it caused quite a stir - as was my intention. Violence, although fully a part of our nature, is weilded by miscreants with misguided intentions, and oftentimes because of some malformed synaptic jump.

"...and we dance the dance of falling, spinning leaves. I for you and you for naught - have become an idea for something."

People knew right away that I had my heart broken, it was the only "love" poem that I ever wrote. Those words, as part of the bigger text, echoed in minds. They resonated because people could relate to the emptiness left by a broken heart. I didn't cry in my coffee, I was glad to feel the pain.

In the army our Drill Sargent said things like this:
"If you little faggits don't move it up that hill...." None of us cried in our coffee....we moved it up that hill.

In society today I have noticed that PC isn't really a topic anymore, it's been superceded by FUD. FUD leveled by governments and little boys with big toys. However, PC has become ingrained in our mannerisms - to some extent. Whoopie - as I have already written, I thinks it's a scourge to our sensibilities.

Last year in my home state (The Commonwealth of Massachusetts) Gay Marriages became OK (well, talk to the people on that), and law. Whoopie. For me, that is. I can see where those in love that are homosexual have found a level of -- damn, I can't think of the word - something right and true... I say - More power to you.

I wish everybody well - and I hope that people once again respect the power of words -- but if you don't like what I say - then don't listen (or read). I am not here to cater to you on any level other than - welcome to my community, brother, sister.

Be well, get over yourself, and drive on.

machiner

[mark]

I agree with much of what you say. "Political correctness" has driven me to the edge more often than I care to remember (try working for a "faith-based" non-profit organization!). However...

I was raised (in Atlanta, GA, in the '50s) in the belief that you should be polite, courteous and considerate of other people. The old saw about "if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all" was very much the ethos I grew up with. I still adhere to this belief.

Which is not to say that I will not speak out if I feel it's necessary - I simply don't believe in using outrageous words where they're not called for. To me, the term "shock value" is an oxymoron. There's more than enough shock in the normal course of events - why would you need to invent more?

Having said that, I must add that another "old-fashioned" concept that I believe in is freedom. Freedom to express yourself in any way you want (okay, don't go yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater). Freedom to do and be whatever you please - so long as you do no harm to others. I believe that's a concept that was one of the basic motivations for the founding of this country (the United States of America).

My personal sense of this freedom means that I try to be polite, courteous and considerate in my day-to-day life. I would hope that others do the same.

[panickedthumb]

I think you summed it up at the end... "get over yourself."

People REALLY need to do that. My fiancee's father is the director of a training center for the mentally retarded (note my use of words here), so I always use this example. Once upon a time, you could call people mentally retarded. Mentally being an adverb describing the adjective "retarded." Mentally is obvious. It means basically "of or relating to the mind." Retarded means slow, essentially. "Mentally retarded" literally means "slow minded" I guess. And that's pretty freakin' accurate. So what happened? They then became the "mentally handicapped" because retarded doesn't sound acceptable enough. Oh, but people still feel dejected! Well, now the trend is, you can't say "mentally handicapped people," you have to say "people with a mental handicap" because the person should come before the disease. Come on. Do you remember high school English class? Didn't adjectives usually come before nouns? What really burns me up thouh, is when people insist on calling anyone with any kind of handicap "handicapable." *shudder* The state of health care for the mentally retarded is in a foul state right now. Words REALLY change thoughts, depending on the connotations those words have. Maybe, just maybe, if we went back to using those words that made people feel uncomfortable, that made people a little sad to hear, then maybe these poor souls would get the care that they really need! In my opinion, bring on the uncomfortability. I don't want to be comfortable with everything, ESPECIALLY words. Remember when words MOVED people? Not anymore. We're too wrapped up in keeping people comfortable that we have lost one of the great characteristics of words-- to inspire and bring out that uncomfortability, to get people motivated to do something! Seriously, though, I don't think we should be outright offensive, but I don't think we should have to tiptoe to make sure we don't offend someone. In the end, a person with a mental handicap is the same as a retard*. Which one evokes more emotion for you?

*I don't use the word "retard" normally because it's insulting, but I also don't use it because it's not explanatory. Slow how? It leaves the issue too open.

Edit: and I didn't touch on this: I do try to be polite at all times, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the core of what I need to say. There's a point when people are so polite (to me at least) that I start getting ticked off because it's OBVIOUSLY a facade.

Thanks machiner, awesome thread!

[mark]

<snip>Edit: and I didn't touch on this: I do try to be polite at all times, as long as it doesn't get in the way of the core of what I need to say. There's a point when people are so polite (to me at least) that I start getting ticked off because it's OBVIOUSLY a facade.

Thanks machiner, awesome thread! There's a difference between "polite" and "facetious" and "sarcastic". The latter two get my Irish up, as well...

And, BTW, my thanks also, Machiner - people far too often overlook the power of words....

[Buffalo Soldier]

That's one of the most interesting post in the forum. I agree... Sometimes when people use "politically correct" terms, the real meaning/context of the message is lost.

[machiner]

This morning this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=19668
was entitled: "Those crazy Japanese"

The thread has been censored in accordance with PC.

This is very disheartening. Which mod changed it and why? Were you asked to change it or did you trample sensibilities because you felt like it?

The term "Those crazy ...<anything>" is a term of (endearment and wonder).

It has become a phrase meant to signify a position of disbelief or amazement about some behavioral charasteristic of; usually Americans. It is not a derrogatory phrase.

It is often bandied about a number of ways and I stress that its use is OPINION and protected as such.

As well its use does not conflict with the Posting Guidelines of this thread.

[wmcbrine]

Once upon a time, you could call people mentally retarded.
The funny thing about that is, "mentally retarded" is already a euphemism. At one time, I've been told, "moron" and "idiot" were accepted medical terms. As they became terms of insult, "retarded" was adopted... and so on. The problem is, you can never get to a lasting, neutral term, because the old attitudes reattach just as firmly to the new names as they did to the old. It's the same with "negro" --> "colored" --> "black" --> "African-American" (though many people have quite sensibly stopped at the one-syllable, country-neutral "black"), or "crippled" --> "disabled" --> "handicapped" --> "challenged", or whatever is in vogue now.

As the endless parade of new vocabulary has proven its uselessness, we now have the reverse phenomenon of people embracing the formerly hated labels, calling themselves what their enemies call them, in an attempt to deflate the negative connotations. I suspect this is more effective. But ultimately, you can't fight the battle in language alone.

Let me also cast my vote for being polite and kind, and for not speaking to others in a way ("correct" or not) that's intended to hurt them, unless you have a damn good reason. Yes, it bloody well is your responsibility to worry about other people's feelings. Of course this is not accomplished by a simple list of forbidden words, or the like, but by careful consideration. But the golden rule is usually all you need to go by.

[panickedthumb]

Yes, I second the Golden Rule philosophy as well.

You shouldn't censor yourself because of fearing being offensive, but you shouldn't insult either. There are differences between offensiveness and lack of Political-Correctness.

[jdodson]

This morning this thread: http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=19668
was entitled: "Those crazy Japanese"

The thread has been censored in accordance with PC.

This is very disheartening. Which mod changed it and why? Were you asked to change it or did you trample sensibilities because you felt like it?

The term "Those crazy ...<anything>" is a term of (endearment and wonder).

It has become a phrase meant to signify a position of disbelief or amazement about some behavioral charasteristic of; usually Americans. It is not a derrogatory phrase.

It is often bandied about a number of ways and I stress that its use is OPINION and protected as such.

As well its use does not conflict with the Posting Guidelines of this thread.

i don't rightly agree. for instance my grandmother likes to say:

"those crazy mexicans." - and her tone is far from calm or gentile.

to be completley honest my grandmother is a racist. when she says "those crazy (people group X) she means they are indeed crazy, it is in no way a term of endearment or wonder.

i really don't give a damn about being PC. i mean seriously, i think it means so many different things now anyway. like the term IP(intellectual property), does it mean copyright? trademark? or patents? or all of the above?

however, (yeah i know i hate "buts or however" too) what we say is not always what one comes to understand. for instance a message i send in verbal form could get taken in a completley different way that i originally intended(see marital communication for more information :mrgreen: ). at times effective communication is difficult even when the reciver can see your body language and hear your vocal inflection. when you create text to transmit over the internet to communicate with others, it is even harder to communicate. all of the vocal inflection and body language is lost and traded for text and at time emoticons. couple that with non-native english reading people and you are even left with a bigger challenge. sarcasm, word plays and euphemisms are very hard to understand if english is not your native tounge.

i do not believe in censorship. i do believe in effective communication. if someone wants to use the phrase "those crazy (people group X)" where X could equal blacks, french, indians or muslims, then fine. however, for abovely stated reasons, i would be more careful.

[tkiesel]

Bravo!

Very interesting thoughts here. Coming from my corner of the planet, (well, my corner would be the northwest hempisphere so I oughta say my little patch of it in the U.S.A.) a person has no fundamental right to remain un-offended by the words of another. That's even in our law, after a fashion. At least, that's how it ought to be. Machiner pointed out that this is becoming less and less the case for cultural rather than legal reasons, which sucks. Too much concern over the potential 'danger' of words is leading to a depreciation of their value and content.

By the same token, I think that people who go around using "gay" to mean "stupid" are equally as guilty of messing up the meanings of words, so there's equal blame on both sides here. The PC folks swung the pendulum too far in the other direction in their reactionism.

I deplore PC. If someone uses "gay" as a synonym for "stupid" or "******" as a synonym for "fool/idiot/etc", he (or she) hasn't done a dang thing to offend me; rather, he's just informed me of his bigotry and stupidity. (same for someone who decides to throw racial epithets left and right) Now I know I can safely ignore whatever he has to say from now on on any issues having to do with ethics, morality, humanity, logic and the like. No need for feeling offended about any of it. People will have different viewpoints and thoughts than me. No biggie.

Re: "Those crazy X" That phrase could be intended as hurtful or, as machiner noted, as a phrase of endearment. The context means everything, though I guess that's true in any exchange of words and thoughts.

I recall something I read in Bass Player magazine about a year ago: a letter to the editor criticizing Marcus Miller (http://www.marcusmiller.com/) for liner notes in an album thanking Herbie Hancock (http://www.herbiehancock.com/) for his "ridiculous (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=ridiculous) " piano playing. Now, to look at the definition of the word, one would think that Mr. Miller had layed a serious insult at Mr. Hancock's feet. That's what the letter writer was complaining about. (all offended. There's that PC bug) However, in cultural context, this was a high compliment: in some musical circles "ridiculous" is more akin to "stunning" or "jaw droppingly masterful."

[machiner]

I appreciate the comments of tkeisel and jdodson relating to, agreeing and disagreeing to my statement about "those crazy X"

Plainly, the context it was used in this morning was not demeaning. It was a "wondorous" statement, made more in awe...plain for all to see.

I got PM'd by the mod responsible for it's censorship and the reason I got was pathetic.

I said that I would not reveal to this forum the culprit. Yes - I said culprit. As I see it, it was dastardly, self-riteous and misguided censorship plain and simple.

I can not abide by:
1- an individual that does not stand by their deeds
2- censorship.

As a result I find it necessary to dismiss myself from this forum as a form of protest. Should the individual responsible for censoring the aforementioned thread decide to own up to and further explain their actions I will respect that and return to the forum in hopes that I might be of assistance on whatever level to its members.

Fare well. Chin up.

[panickedthumb]

It's like the northeastern term "sick."
"That's a sick ride" means "Your car is cool and tricked the h-e-double-axles out"

Remember "phat?" If you couldn't READ it you might condsider a diet.

For me, it's all about clarity of meaning. Words should always be geared for clarity of meaning, unless there's some art involved, like in poetry and music. "those crazy Japanese" was not clear, because the Japanese and many other languages would see it as "those mentally unstable Japanese" and would completely not understand the fact that while the author may have meant it to be a term of endearment, he/she doesn't see it that way.

I had a very serious issue with one of our community members because I had posted a joke similar to "those crazy japanese" and he got seriously offended because he didn't realize the context (the member in question spoke Spanish I believe) and taken out of context, with literal meanings, it was quite offensive apparently.

So no, I don't see editing the topic of the thread as conforming to be PC. It was all a matter of clarity.

I would note that I read that and thought for a few minutes about whether to edit it myself. In the end I chose not to, since I couldn't make a decision one way or the other, but I don't see a problem with it either.

[DirtDawg]

Political correctness leads to censorship. Anyone who sensors is, undoubtably, a dong. That being said, there is not an "Across the board" solution to this. While I agree with much of what your're suggesting, consider this:
WHat I didn't do is run home crying to my momma because Peter called me a "***".
Fair enough, but you're not a "***", are you? So the reference is irrelevant. If I called you a "crusty boot", you probably wouldn't take offense to that either, because you're not a crusty boot and you know it, so my derogatory term would be meaningless.

There's something else to consider, though. Generational differences. I, too, used to call all my friends "gay" or whatever and sometimes, in the company of good friends, still refer to things I think are lame as "gay". But I'm no homophobe. I've had a few gay roommates and plenty of gay friends, as is fairly standard for urban dwellers, I think. To people our age, who've heard and used these terms all or lives, we understand there's no malisciousness behind these words. Does that make them right? No, not really. That is, if the generations after us quit using them in negative ways, well I think that's fine. Great even.

Years ago I was working in a restaurant when an old man came in and asked for a cup of coffee. He wanted it without cream or suger or, as he called it, "negro". Fifty years ago, this would have been completely acceptable, but it was a shock for me to hear, and I think that's progress.

[kassetra]

I appreciate the comments of tkeisel and jdodson relating to, agreeing and disagreeing to my statement about "those crazy X"

Plainly, the context it was used in this morning was not demeaning. It was a "wondorous" statement, made more in awe...plain for all to see.

I got PM'd by the mod responsible for it's censorship and the reason I got was pathetic.

I said that I would not reveal to this forum the culprit. Yes - I said culprit. As I see it, it was dastardly, self-riteous and misguided censorship plain and simple.

I can not abide by:
1- an individual that does not stand by their deeds
2- censorship.

As a result I find it necessary to dismiss myself from this forum as a form of protest. Should the individual responsible for censoring the aforementioned thread decide to own up to and further explain their actions I will respect that and return to the forum in hopes that I might be of assistance on whatever level to its members.

Fare well. Chin up.

Since I have been so unfairly slammed for making the thread title non-offensive, I am going to state to everyone here for clarity why I modified the thread title. I don't need to be called out in order to "explain my actions." I did not modify the title in haste nor out of an emotional knee jerk.

1. I edited it because any person reading that thread that is not a Native English speaker is going to not understand the slang term of "crazy" ... but instead read it literally, i.e. "mentally unstable". I edited it, and not because of any PC garbage, but because anyone who doesn't understand American colloquialisms would consider it rude. That is absolutely not self-righteous.

2. I doubt any of the following sounds endearing to the people in these groups: "Those crazy blacks", "Those crazy jews", "Those crazy chinese", "Those crazy arabs", "Those crazy russians", "Those crazy gays"... That is *CERTAINLY* not in *AWE*, nor a *WONDROUS* statement for any of those groups. The title, "Those crazy japanese" is exactly the same. Also, without any other statements in the thread title, nor any body language, or tone of voice, there is no way that it was "plain for all to see."

3. Not everyone "gets" western slang - nor, I feel, that they should have to.

4. Not every person that comes to these forums is a. Caucasian, b. From the West, and c. Speaks native english, *nor should they have to be in order to be respected in the forums.*

I am truly sorry that you feel respecting other people and their differences is pathetic and misguided censorship, because that is the reason I edited that title. I feel no need to "own up" to anything, because I have not done anything wrong. If you leave the community, I'll miss your humorous posts, but so be it.

[jdodson]

I appreciate the comments of tkeisel and jdodson relating to, agreeing and disagreeing to my statement about "those crazy X"

cool. i appreciate your comments as well, they are obviously well thought out and articulated.

Plainly, the context it was used in this morning was not demeaning. It was a "wondorous" statement, made more in awe...plain for all to see.

i agree.



As a result I find it necessary to dismiss myself from this forum as a form of protest. Should the individual responsible for censoring the aforementioned thread decide to own up to and further explain their actions I will respect that and return to the forum in hopes that I might be of assistance on whatever level to its members.

i hear your protest and will talk to the moderators about this(as we are already doing).

i hope you return.

[ubuntu-geek]

I back the moderators on their thread/post edits. It happened to be that kassetra asked me about the the ".. Japanese .." thread and I gave the approval for the title change if you would like PM me your thoughts and complaints on the situation please feel free.

Never the less, this community has always been clean, the moderators and I personally work hard in our spare time to make sure this community stays clean, friendly and professional so people from all walks of life and age can visit here without hesitation.

I also expect visitors and users of this community to follow the Ubuntu Code of Conduct (http://www.ubuntulinux.org/community/conduct) if these cannot be followed then the visitor maybe asked to leave or have their forum account suspended. We haven't had todo this and I hope we don't have in the future.

This thread is locked; there is no need to go on further about this issue.