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aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:01 AM
One of the frequently asked questions on these forums is "What's the difference between Gnome and KDE?" and, of course, the follow-up "Which should I use?"

I hate to say it (because my guide is rather lame), but currently, based on a Google search, my little guide to KDE and Gnome (http://www.psychocats.net/essays/kdevsgnome) is probably the most comprehensive on the web right now (in terms of detail).

That's sad. Really. I'm not bragging. I'm saying "shame on the web" for having my stupid guide be the most detailed.

You'll notice if you look at the KDE and Gnome threads on here that most people use very vague terminology to talk about the two major desktop environments: "Windows-like," "easy," "confusing," "simple," "professional," "clean," "smooth."

All of those terms are abstract and don't really give a new user a sense of what the real differences are between Gnome and KDE.

I'm interested in working together with anyone who's willing to to create a page that explains concrete differences between Gnome and KDE... with screenshots--showing both the default setups in Ubuntu and Kubuntu and showing how they can be configured to be similar or different.

I've done a fair share of tutorials in my time, but I'm getting a bit tired, and I don't think I can do this by myself. I also don't know if my poor little Psychocats site would be able to handle the bandwidth if we have some nice high-quality screenshots that touch on many aspects of Gnome and KDE.

Um... any volunteers?

P.S. I'm particularly interested in individuals who are well-versed in both desktop environments and not heavily biased in favor of one or the other. It would also be nice if someone happened to have a place to host it--somewhere that doesn't have bandwidth as an issue.

John.Michael.Kane
June 14th, 2006, 04:11 AM
aysiu what about partnering with a few to update what you already have bring it full circle. maybe then transfer that section to a deacated host. why start from nothing when you have a strong base.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 04:15 AM
I think it's a very nice idea, and probably an unbiased view of the whole situation is very much needed. However, I think it will be hard to do it, without ending up in a flame war/bashing. It's also hard to find people who are equally experienced in both GNOME and KDE.

I wish I could help, but my experience leans more on KDE. Not that I didn't want to learn GNOME, I just didn't have enough time/oppurtunity to sit down with it for more than a day.

But if you need any help regarding configuring stuff in KDE, you know where to find me. :D

P.S. I really hope this doesn't end up in flames. Oh, and get yourself ready for trolls. No matter how much you try to be unbiased, there will always be people whom you can't please enough. :D

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:16 AM
SD-Plissken: That very well could be how it goes. I'd really like it to be more of a community effort, though.

Fenyx: Yeah, I can imagine trolls may come around, but I won't need their help. I don't think it's that difficult to be unbiased in creating a comparison site. You don't have to say which is better, especially if you have screenshots. You can just show people the differences... "This is how you accomplish such-and-such a task in Gnome. This is how you accomplish that same task in KDE. This is what the KDE print dialogue looks like. This is what the Gnome print dialogue looks like."

Then people who see the concrete differences can make up their own minds which they prefer.

John.Michael.Kane
June 14th, 2006, 04:18 AM
Fenyx why would it turn to flames? all this is about is getting things updated right, and asking for help with it.

aysiu I can kind of see where you want to go with this. person (A) could set-up two partitions one for KDE one for Gnome maybe run them both for a set amount of time, and taking screen shots of diffrent aspects. might even list the pros/cons of each in the end, however make note that the experience he/she had may not be that of every enduser.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 04:27 AM
@SD-Plissken:

I'm interested in working together with anyone who's willing to to create a page that explains concrete differences between Gnome and KDE.
I don't know, based on experience, no matter how objective and unbiased an article is, the words "difference", "compare", "GNOME", and "KDE" often has the tendency to call in trolls from every corner of the world. But you're right, it doesn't need to end up like that. That's why I said I wish it wouldn't.

@aysiu: is there a better word than "comparison" for what you're trying to do? If I understand correctly, you're probably talking about which things can be done in both KDE and GNOME and how to do them, or which features found in GNOME have an equivalent in KDE, and vice-versa? Because the word "comparison" tends to bring up the notion of comparing which one is better. I mean, that's what comparing means right? Most people will come in with the prejudice/preconceived notion that the page/article will be talking about stuff like "usability", "customization", "easier", etc. And we all know how biases can affect or ruin how you read things.

I don't know... I'm racking (is that the right term?) my brain for a more appropriate term... But if we can't come up with a better word, I guess "comparison" would be ok.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 04:30 AM
here are some links together with selected conclusion snippets. i chose them because they are reasonably balanced. some parts are not totally up to date.





If you haven’t got it yet, KDE has more stuff, but presents it badly and Gnome has less stuff, but presents it very well. http://richiejp.wordpress.com/2006/03/22/kde-and-gnome-the-difference-between/


------------------------------------------------------



What is the difference between KDE and GNOME? There are several differences and similarities.

1. Both systems are based on CORBA networking. GNOME arguably follows a slightly more standardized version of it. GNOME uses Orbit. KDE has their own request broker, MCOP. While they may sound like geek to most, what it means is that both are network aware and transparent to some degree or another. A lot of networking tools seem to perform evenly between KDE and GNOME, IMHO GNOME handles it a smigin better.

2. Both are designed to provide a standard API, to make writing programs easier It can be argued that KDE has the lead here with Qt. (As it can be ported to Qt/Windows. That's really moot, since MS removed native crossplatform POSIX support from Windows, so 9/10 of the rest of the code wont work anyway.) GNOME uses GTK, which may be a bit rougher to code in but serves the same purpose. When the chips are down, GTK is probably used more opensource than Qt. Qt is almost exclusively used for KDE or KDE applications. GTK is not. So GTK applications tend to run on more machines, without extra installs versus Qt. Sorry guys.

3. There are applications out there that are neither KDE or GNOME. In my experience, GNOME has less issues with them, and running with KDE apps, than KDE does running with a GNOME or neutral application. KDE doesn't like to play as nicely with the other children in the sandbox. But the last few years and versions of KDE have seen great improvement in that area.

4. In terms of integration and data sharing between applications, KDE is the leader. At lot of KDE programs cut and paste easily. GNOME2 though, has been catching up fast. Most consider this important. I don't. X mouse paste, the paste mechanism bult into X (3rd/middle button paste), works just as well in either environment, and is faster. GNOME 2.12 promises a new level of application integration, release date to be Sept 7. I'm taking the wait and see.

5. In terms of speed, KDE is faster on most prebuilt versions. Current versions of both run about the same on my machine, with GNOME a touch slower. KDE provides less to load, hence is a tad quicker. In GNOME's defense, they provide a wider range of internal support for application libraries/protocol standards.

I suspect it's as much because KDE is compiled better for some distributions and that the GNOME basics have more libraries than KDE. If I compiled GNOME myself, I'd bet the performance would be closer. Even unoptimized as my install currently is, the difference is not worth mentioning. Whether it is for you depends on who made your OS installer.

6. In my opinion GNOME has the advantage in DRAG and DROP on it's menu systems and general interface, which is WAY ahead of KDE last I saw, admittedly last June or July Bad part, GNOME doesn't come with a menu editor in the last version, but that will be fixed in the 2.12 release in Sept.

7. The background sound server for GNOME - to make sounds for open and closing windows, seems to have problems with older programs. At least for me. XMMS in particular. I think that as much to do with my running some BETA software and XMMS configured to use an obsolete sound driver, as it is a bug in GNOME. If anyone knows a definate answer, shout! I don't need noise for opening a menu or window. I always leave the sound server off. This does NOT affect media players, etc - which play great, just window sounds.

8. Although KDE is well received by programmers, GNOME is the preferred environment the the majority of UNIX OS makers: Novell, Sun, Debian, and RedHat just for starters. So the normal interface you will see on their workstations is GNOME. KDE can be installed as an option, though.


The reason for this was Qt, the core library for KDE. Up until '99-00, Qt was completely proprietary opensource, and that did not sit well with most programmers and OS providers. Many begged KDE to switch libraries to a less restricted one. KDE refused, but to their credit eventually managed to get TrollTech, who created Qt, to release it under the GPL with a conditional license,and guarantee it to an opensource foundation. There are few or no opensource applications using Qt on Windows because it is still proprietary for many uses. GTK, the core for GNOME, has no such restrictions so GTK is preferred for programs that may be ported.


Otherwise, they serve pretty much the exact same purpose. Both perform equally well. Often, it's a matter of taste. I find KDE garish, and Windows-like - with more form over function.

GNOME is more function over form, but the form is good looking. http://www.daniweb.com/techtalkforums/thread29024.html



------------------------------------------------------



http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=9305&page=1

John.Michael.Kane
June 14th, 2006, 04:33 AM
Fenyx everyone's allowed to disagree. I guess it's just how it's done that causes issues sometime. as to the kde/gnome comparison screenshot/ect I would hope to see aysiu use what he has as the foundation, and build from there.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:46 AM
ComplexNumber, most of that stuff will make no sense to new users. I know when I was a new user last year, I didn't know the difference between QT and GTK. I still don't think I'd be able to give a hard-and-fast definition of each.

I'm talking about a resource that would primarily answer new users questions about "What's the difference?" and "Which should I use?" The page itself wouldn't make any recommendations of one as being better than the other. It would simply present "This is Gnome. This is KDE." What one user would see in the page as the "lack of customization" in Gnome, another will see in that same page as "the beauty of Gnome's simplicity." What one sees as the "bloat of KDE" in that page, another will see as "the easy-to-use GUI frontends KDE offers."

Of course, by showing, "This is how you do X in Gnome, X in KDE," the page would also secondarily and inadvertently end up as a sort of basic HowTo/orientation.

Dr. Nick
June 14th, 2006, 04:57 AM
I'd be willing to help out in my spare time. I have gnome on my computer now and kde on another one. I think a good way to make the "comparison" would be to basically make one huge/well organized howto and show all the popular task with pictures and instructions of how to accomplish them.

People only expierenced in one or the other could still be helpfull if we just brainstormed a ton of task and had people who know how to do them in each respective interface make a wirteup following a similar form and then combined the 2 together.

Also if wanted thier could be a section full of user submitted screenshots showing the end result of GUI custimization and possibly how they got thier,

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 05:27 AM
While the page could incidentally show people how to do stuff, I would like its primary focus to be on the differences and similarities between Gnome and KDE.

There are plenty of HowTos out there for specific tasks.

Dr. Nick
June 14th, 2006, 06:06 AM
Ah i sort of understand a bit better now, I wasnt thinking specific howto's on how to get a certain hardware to work. More of a "howto" change this setting type of thing. Sort of comparing the gui configuration tools between gnome and kde for changing settings like users etc. Not giving instruction on how to accompliush a goal, but just showing a gui screenshot of what all options are offered.

Is that more of how you mean it?

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 06:14 AM
That's exactly what I mean.

Bottom line: people might easily see how to do stuff, but that would just be a by-product of the comparison.

My hope is that it would help address people's concerns about having to choose and make them realize how they're different and that... ultimately, they're not that different.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 06:18 AM
Sorry aysiu, I might have totally misunderstood what you were saying.
Anyway, if you want this page/project to be as comprehensive as possible, might I suggest starting small first. Maybe you/we/whoever's involved could start writing about features that the two have in common. When that's done, we could go on to the differences. I think it's might be better that way.

You could also draft an outline of things that will be discussed, like what features you want to show first, etc. Maybe a very short introduction on what a DE actually is or what it does would also be good. I'm thinking of an outline like this:

Introduction
- What is a DE
- What is GNOME (or what GNOME stands for)
- What is KDE

Basic features:
1. Panels/taskbars/system trays in GNOME and KDE
2. Applications menu/K Menu
3. Desktop (talking about the desktop background, etc).
4. File Managers
5. Toolbars, dialog boxes, menus
etc.

Basically it could start of with more superficial stuff, things that users would see immediately. Then it could go off to deeper stuff like icons, widgets, and toolkits.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 06:23 AM
Fenyx, that's great. That's exactly how we should proceed. Where are we going to put all this?

Dr. Nick
June 14th, 2006, 06:30 AM
Would this eventually end up in the wiki or were you considering a different website for this seperate from the forums?

I dont know much about the wiki, so I dont know what all features it supports

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 06:31 AM
It could end up on the Wiki, I suppose. Sure.

Edit: I'm willing to put work into the content if someone's willing to put it on the Wiki. Frankly, after looking at the Wiki instructions for how to post and how to format, my head hurts. It's really involved.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 06:32 AM
Good question! Are you sure your website can't handle anymore traffic? :D
I could think of 3 possible locations:
1. If you're planning this to be something related to Ubuntu, we could make use of UDSF or the wiki. I'm not absolutely sure about this, though, as this doesn't really address Ubuntu-specific stuff.
2. You could also make an exclusive thread for it in this forum, where you could just edit the first page to reflect changes/additions. The advantage of this is that it could be stickied in this forum. The disadvantage would be that the first post would have a length limit, if the forum has one. also, it might get messy if people would keep on adding comments on it.
3. The best place would still be an outside server/host. People could just contribute information through this thread or something similar, and you could just put the necessary acknowledgments. Maybe a wiki for this could be a good place. But since I have no idea how to make/maintain a wiki, I'm not entirely sure.

Personally I'd recommend psychocats, because I love seeing your cat avatar. :p

Dr. Nick
June 14th, 2006, 06:37 AM
My last post for tonight since I have class in a few hours lol,

If we found a host or someone had a domain already then we could possibly just open up a imageshack account or a similar free picture hosting and just link pictures from that to a domain to greatly reduce the load of a members personal domain. All that would need to be hosted would be the text explaining the images.

just a idea.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 06:39 AM
Well, I would sort of want it to be focused on Ubuntu and Kubuntu specifically. The resultant page would be useful to other distros, too, of course, but I wouldn't want things to get too complicated.

Ideally, I'd like for it to be one simple HTML page like http://www.monkeyblog.org/ubuntu/installing

I think Psychocats would be hurting for bandwidth if I added a graphics-intensive and comprehensive comparison of KDE and Gnome, yes.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 06:51 AM
I'm having reservations about using Kubuntu as the default KDE example, though. I'm hearing a few people saying that Kubuntu doesn't actually follow KDE defaults, and instead follow GNOME's when it comes to directories. I have no specific examples at hand. Like I said, I just heard it.

But If we're going to focus on GUI stuff, I guess that won't be much of a problem.

Might I suggest, like what Dr. Nick said, that we could use something like PhotoBucket or ImageShack to host the images rather than burden psychocats with that load.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 07:02 AM
I'll see if ImageShack is a good option. That may be the way to go. I looked at their Terms of Use and Common Questions, and they seem to have no policy against hotlinking--in fact, they seem to encourage it!

If this were for general purposes (any Linux users), I, too, would be hesitant to use Kubuntu as the example for KDE, but I want this page to target potential Kubuntu/Ubuntu users specifically. If other distros find it indirectly useful, so be it.

Jucato
June 14th, 2006, 08:31 AM
Image hosting services like ImageShack and PhotoBucket actually use hotlinking. For PhotoBucket, each image you upload are given 3 ways to be accessed: http://, <img>, and <a href>.

I personally use PhotoBucket and have no experience with ImageShack. But I see that most people in the forums I go to, including this one, use ImageShack more when posting screenshots/images.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 01:54 PM
ComplexNumber, most of that stuff will make no sense to new users. I know when I was a new user last year, I didn't know the difference between QT and GTK. I still don't think I'd be able to give a hard-and-fast definition of each. really? i imagine it to be quite straightforward, especially the 2nd one. the intended audience is for someone who knows the basics of each desktop, but who wants a summary of the differences. they're things that i would have been looking for if i were a complete newbie. i mean, there are tons of pages that give(in easy to understand terms) what kde is and what gnome is, but there aren't many that say what the actual differences are. to fully make the choice between gnome and kde, one has to know, not just what each one of them is, but the differences between them.......and thats what those links provided do.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 02:52 PM
It serves a purpose, but I don't think it suits my target audience, who do not know the basics of each desktop.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 03:14 PM
aysiu
whichever way, your target audience will still want and need to know the differences too....not just what each one is. otherwise, their knowledge will just be left hanging in mid air because they may well find it difficult to visualise and gauge each DE relative to the other. so how can people make a real choice if they don't see each DE in a nutshell relative to the other? answer: with difficulty.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:03 PM
ComplexNumber, why don't you wait until the page is created before you criticize it?

Better yet, why don't you wait until actual new users see it and see if it satisfies their curiosity?

Next time a new user asks, "What's the difference between KDE and Gnome?" you post up that link that explains QT and GTK, and I'll give them a link with screenshots showing them how they're actually different to the absolute beginner end user.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 04:31 PM
ComplexNumber, why don't you wait until the page is created before you criticize it? i haven't made any criticism of anything :confused:. i'm just emphasising that the differences should not be neglected, thats all. like i said, the person(newbie or not) who is wanting to make a choice will only get half the picture. i mean, would you choose to buy a car by seeing all the diffrerent models in isolation without making comparisons between each one? exactly, thought not. imagine going into a car showroom and the salesman saying: "this is Model A in brown. it has powersteering, whatever size engine, whatever maximum speed, etc". then going into another showroom and being told "this is Model B in black. it has large wheels, velvet seat covers, whatever". notice that different aspects are emphasised. so how can one make a choice without seeing them compared in terms of the same criteria? answer: with difficulty. considering that i know absolutely nothing about cars, the need for knowing the differences at a glance becomes all the more important. its the same with making a desktop choice, or any other choice between things that a person has little to no knowledge of.
the best way to go about presenting it to the newbie is to give a brief outline of what each one is, how each looks, etc. then present some details(for those who want more). then go on to say the differences, so they can see each one within its context, and therefore, understand each DE better than if they just had each one explained in isolation.
hopefully you can now appreciate where i'm coming from.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:34 PM
the best way to go about presenting it to the newbie is to give a brief outline of what each one is, how each looks, etc. then go on to say the differences, so they can see each one within its context, and therefore, understand each DE better than if they just had each one explained in isolation. I guess what confuses me (or what I took for criticism) is this impression you have that the comparison page would look at each DE in isolation.

The whole idea from the start was to look at both the differences and the similarities. It wil be different from the link you posted, though, in that:

1. It will use screenshots
2. It will target those who know nothing about desktop environments

Alpha_toxic
June 14th, 2006, 04:44 PM
I think the emphasis in such a comparison should be on the default apps and how they relate to each other. After all this is what actually makes KDE and Gnome different. If you remove the most of the apps and the put Gnome's pannel at the bottom of the screen = u have KDE... (and vise versa)
btw, will it be a KDE-Gnome comparison or Ubuntu-Kubuntu one, cause there is difference.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:51 PM
Unless the vote is against me, I'm hoping to making it a Kubuntu/Ubuntu comparison that will discuss the defaults and the ability to customize.

I don't agree, however, that the only differences are the default applications. For example, if you want to have icons appears on the desktop, it's a very different procedure in Gnome and in KDE--this has nothing to do with the default applications. Likewise, making the taskbar transparent is a different procedure.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 04:52 PM
I'm hoping to create a prototype within the next few days. Maybe after there's something concrete for us to discuss it might make sense for people to give suggestions.

My hope is that, even though I would be one of the initial authors, that this would be some kind of community project. If we aren't able to come to a consensus, though, I could take it solo. I'd be willing to GPL it (or whatever the text version of that is) so that others could use the same screenshots and text to make their own (modify the text, add their own screenshots).

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 05:00 PM
ausiu

I guess what confuses me (or what I took for criticism) is this impression you have that the comparison page would look at each DE in isolation. rather than having a convoluted description of the differences, have them bullet pointed so that the user can see the differences at a glance in terms of the same criteria. he next example is a sippet shows what i mean, even though the example is maybe a little too advanced for the absolute newbie, the basic idea is there:

5. In terms of speed, KDE is faster on most prebuilt versions. Current versions of both run about the same on my machine, with GNOME a touch slower. KDE provides less to load, hence is a tad quicker. In GNOME's defense, they provide a wider range of internal support for application libraries/protocol standards.

I suspect it's as much because KDE is compiled better for some distributions and that the GNOME basics have more libraries than KDE. If I compiled GNOME myself, I'd bet the performance would be closer. Even unoptimized as my install currently is, the difference is not worth mentioning. Whether it is for you depends on who made your OS installer.

6. In my opinion GNOME has the advantage in DRAG and DROP on it's menu systems and general interface, which is WAY ahead of KDE last I saw, admittedly last June or July Bad part, GNOME doesn't come with a menu editor in the last version, but that will be fixed in the 2.12 release in Sept.


i would also like to emphasise starting with a very brief outline of the whole. many people make the mistake (i'm not saying that you would or anything, but most people do) of diving straight into the details. when the whole is presented at the beginning in easy to understand terms, the user can see how everything fits into the jigsaw(or bigger picture). they may not immediately understand the various pieces of the whole, but they can see the whole. this makes understaning the various parts a lot easier.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 05:10 PM
Once again, ComplexNumber, I think what you're quoting is a valuable resource, but it addresses a different target audience.

It serves a different need from what I'm trying to create.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 05:18 PM
Once again, ComplexNumber, I think what you're quoting is a valuable resource, but it addresses a different target audience.

It serves a different need from what I'm trying to create.
it was the style(ie bulletpointed differences between the two in terms of each criteria) that i was drawing attention to, above...not the actual content.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 05:32 PM
Bullet points and screenshots don't mix well together.

The page will be topical, though, of course... as it compares the two. It won't be the first half of the page being Ubuntu and the second half being Kubuntu.

It'll put aspects of the two side by side throughout.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 05:35 PM
To give people an idea of how I'm thinking about approaching it, this is what I've cooked up for the beginning (I am, of course, referring to screenshots that don't yet exist, but you can probably imagine what the screenshots look like):


One of the frequently asked questions from new users is what the difference is between Kubuntu and Ubuntu. This page hopes to give a glimpse at what the differences and similarities are. It may give you an idea which one you want to start with--keep in mind, though, that you don't need to choose. You can install Ubuntu on top of Kubuntu and vice versa.

Ubuntu is Ubuntu with Gnome as its default desktop environment. Kubuntu is Ubuntu with KDE as its default desktop environment. Xubuntu is Ubuntu with XFCE as its default desktop environment. For now, we're going to leave XFCE out of the discussion, as it's not as popular as KDE and Gnome. A desktop environment is what the user immediately sees and interacts with--it usually includes a file manager, panels, windows, etc. In Windows and Mac, there is only one desktop environment. In Ubuntu, your operating system can behave differently and be configured in different ways depending on your desktop environment.

First, let's take a look at the default look and feel (as Ubuntu delivers them) of the two environments.

The way Ubuntu delivers KDE, the default theme is Lipstik with a blue background. There's a menu at the bottom-left and only one toolbar at the bottom of the screen.

The way Ubuntu delivers Gnome, the default theme is Human with an orangish-brown color scheme. There are three menus at the top-left and two toolbars--one at the top of the screen, one at the bottom of the screen.

As you can see from the following two screenshots, though, the defaults can be changed (this is part of the beauty of desktop environments--they are configurable). Now we see KDE with a brown/orange color scheme and two toolbars and Gnome with a blue color scheme and one toolbar.

One difference you can see right away is that Gnome can have either a menu separated into three menus--Applications, Places, and System--or one main menu that has Applications, Places, and System as submenus. KDE, however, has one KMenu, regardless of whether it's at the top or the bottom. Eventually, I would cover how to install themes, how to configure panels, how to turn on numlock, how to take screenshots, how to change the look of files in the file manager, how to rename files, how to make keyboard shortcuts, and a few other topics that I hope will highlight some of the interface differences... and similarities.

And I'll repeat for ComplexNumber's sake:

1. This will be targeted to new users who have no experience with Ubuntu or Kubuntu or Linux at all.
2. This will be GPL'ed or copylefted or whatever you want to call it, so if you don't like it, change it.
3. This is a work in progress and seeks to address a need that I believe even your great bullet-pointed link does not address.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 05:46 PM
Bullet points and screenshots don't mix well together.
well underline the criteia (eg running speed, toolkit used, major applications, file manager, etc) instead then. note that the various criteria will first appear in the overall description that can give a newbie a gentle introduction to the desktop, and so they can see the whole in such a way as they can see how everything fits together. i don't see how you come to that conclusion.

the example you've given above is too confusing. try to relate it to something that people know (eg windows). at the end (if it continues in the same vain), even i would be left with the feeling of "so which is the best for me?".
just in case you're wondering. thats constructive criticism :).

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 05:49 PM
Sorry you feel that way.

I will take your suggestion about divvying it up--maybe with bold titles for sections instead of bullet points, though.

So this doesn't leave you confused as to which is best for you?
Both are designed to provide a standard API, to make writing programs easier It can be argued that KDE has the lead here with Qt. (As it can be ported to Qt/Windows. That's really moot, since MS removed native crossplatform POSIX support from Windows, so 9/10 of the rest of the code wont work anyway.) GNOME uses GTK, which may be a bit rougher to code in but serves the same purpose. When the chips are down, GTK is probably used more opensource than Qt. Qt is almost exclusively used for KDE or KDE applications. GTK is not. So GTK applications tend to run on more machines, without extra installs versus Qt. Sorry guys. Well, you're not my target audience then!

My target audience would read that and say "WTF? What is all this GTK/Qt stuff?"

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 05:53 PM
we're just going to have to agree to disagree then, i'm afraid. i just think making it structured (with intelligent use of headings etc), emphasising differneces, starting with a brief view of the whole, making it colour coded, etc is the best way forward. nothing too verbose and no long paragraphs etc.

GeneralZod
June 14th, 2006, 05:59 PM
So this doesn't leave you confused as to which is best for you? Well, you're not my target audience then!

My target audience would read that and say "WTF? What is all this GTK/Qt stuff?"

I remember Matthew Paul Thomas's list of criticisms about Ubuntu, and the style in which he presented one (http://mpt.net.nz/archive/2005/04/11/ubuntu, item 66.7) has always stuck with me. I'll try and emulate it here :)


What is the difference between KDE and GNOME? There are several differences and similarities.

1. Both systems are based on wibble woobling. GNOME arguably follows a slightly more standardized version of it. GNOME uses flooble. KDE has their own glerping flarknar, glerpok. While they may sound like geek to most, what it means is that both are squoobly nerble and transparent to some degree or another. A lot of networking tools seem to perform evenly between KDE and GNOME, IMHO GNOME handles it a smigin better.

2. Both are designed to provide a standard froop, to make writing programs easier It can be argued that KDE has the lead here with Qt. (As it can be ported to Qt/Windows. That's really moot, since MS removed pingly blamflerstarp fripple support from Windows, so 9/10 of the rest of the sorcery wont work anyway.) GNOME uses gittok, which may be a bit rougher to code in but serves the same purpose. When the chips are down, gittok is probably used more glarwhale than cutey. cutey is almost exclusively used for KDE or KDE applications. gittock is not. So gittock applications tend to run on more machines, without extra installs versus cutey. Sorry guys.

I really liked the link you gave ComplexNumber (very interesting stuff :)), but as aysiu says, it's more for the curious intermediate (or maybe even advanced) user who wants to know about system design and licensing politics.

aysiu
June 14th, 2006, 06:00 PM
Well, I'll go ahead and create the page. If you feel you can make modifications to it to appear simpler or easier to understand, you're welcome to take what I create and make a modification of it.

If we then hear feedback from a lot of new users that your page was most helpful, I'd be more than happy to retire my page and recommend yours.

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 06:04 PM
it's more for the curious intermediate yes, but as i've already said, i was drawing attention to the style,...not the content :). also, if there is a very gentle introduction so that the newbie can see how everything fits in together and relate everything to something that they already know, the rest is made a lot easier (for the writer and the learner).

GeneralZod
June 14th, 2006, 06:07 PM
yes, but as i've already said, i was drawing attention to the style,...not the content :). also, if there is a very gentle introduction so that the newbie can see how everything fits in together and relate everything to something that they already know, the rest is made a lot easier (for the writer and the learner).

I know - I was just looking for an excuse to write a post with lots of silly words ;)

ComplexNumber
June 14th, 2006, 06:11 PM
I know - I was just looking for an excuse to write a post with lots of silly words ;) the post contained a funny quote ;)

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 04:22 AM
Well, I created it:
http://www.psychocats.net/ubuntu/kdegnome.html

I know it welcomes heaps of criticism. I do pick some rather seemingly random aspects of KDE and Gnome to compare, but for day-to-day functioning, they're pretty much the same--Alt-Tab switches windows, Control-Alt-D shows the desktop. They both have trash cans. They both have window lists. They both have menus. When you click on an application launcher, the application launches.

I would ask, though, that rather than criticizing it, you improve upon it. The HTML, the text contained within, and the images are all free for you to use. If you want to modify it... or even just mirror it, all I ask is that you say (in tiny print way at the bottom) "Based on original work by A.Y. Siu" (for a modification), "Originally created by A.Y. Siu" (for a mirror), or something else appropriate... because I did work damn hard on this.

I don't think people will necessarily read it and know what desktop environment is for them, but it will give them a general idea of the different approaches KDE and Gnome have.

I'm not sure bullet points would have worked for this, but I did break it down by sections with section headings. Thanks for the suggestion, ComplexNumber.

I also shrunk the images--both for bandwidth's sake and for the sake of people with small monitors (my original images were about 1280 pixels wide). It was too much trouble using ImageShack (I tried it). It's much easier for me to manage images on my own server.

Hopefully I won't get Slashdotted or Dugg.

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 04:50 AM
Good start so far, I see a few items that may benefit from a few clarifications. Nothing really major though. I may play with this a bit and see if the text can be added next to the pictures, I think that may help readabality a bit, we will see I guess.

I dont have a host other than geocities :( What I might do right now is play with it a bit and see if i can get it into a pdf file and attach it here, I will highlight the parts I add to make the changes easier to see. I will keep the html saved on mine incase it is wanted for later use

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 04:58 AM
Yeah, I'm going to give it a couple of days to breathe, and I may make my own improvements, but I'd definitely encourage you to host it even on Geocities and try playing around with it (modify the text, substitute screenshots, put text beside pictures).

A PDF would be cool, too.

Jucato
June 16th, 2006, 05:46 AM
Geocities has a very low bandwidth limit. A potential high-traffic page like this might not survive the day. But I guess if there are no other options, it would be fine.

I haven't read the whole thing yet, but aysiu, what complications are you encountering using ImageShack.us? Have you taken a look at PhotoBucket? In PhotoBucket, every image you upload automatically gives you reference points: a url (http), a tag (<a href>) and an image ([IMG]). You can just copy/paste them. I'm not really sure how it works in ImageShack.

I also don't think bullets would apply here, but having section headings certainly would. As for the document, might I suggest following a logical or visual flow. For example, you started by showing the default desktop, then jumped to keyboard shortcuts, which isn't really immediately connected/related to the desktop. You're targetting newbies here, right? They're bound to get confused by the mixed topics.

I'll probably give some other ideas when I'm able to read everything. Right now, I'm busy doing laundry. :D

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 06:00 AM
I actually do have a Photobucket account. I may go that route if my bandwidth gets used up too quickly.

The problem with ImageShack was its terms of service demanding that you keep the tags as is and not modify them (sure, I don't have to listen, but I do like to play by the rules), and the images just getting lost in the sea of other images (how can I find it again if I happen to lose that URL?).

I'll admit the narrative is a bit lacking and all the sections really have very little to do with one another... I'm not quite sure what the proper segue would be, though.

basketcase
June 16th, 2006, 06:16 AM
FWIW, I have an account with Dreamhost that has 1TB of bandwidth per month...I'd be willing to give up as I only have a very low traffic site hosted on it.

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 06:18 AM
Thanks, basketcase. Feel free to mirror the page and/or change it.

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 06:20 AM
yeah imageshack will get lost, I think if you make a account you can manage your files though. I may just post a pdf for now once I figure out how to get it out of nvu.

Geocities does have low bandwidth, plus to get it thier I would have to redo all the image links or just link then from the origional site. The way I edited it was dy saving the entire site to my hard drive so all the img links got lost and now it just links off my hd.

expect a pdf attach soon, All i really did was put the text next to the pictures and clarify a few small points.

I will get a idea of another topic and start to make a page on it.

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 06:23 AM
The image links are relative paths, not absolute ones, so as long as you upload the images to Geocities as well, it shouldn't be a problem.

You're right, though, Geocities doesn't give much in the way of bandwidth--3 GB/month.

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 06:30 AM
yeah I may try geocities for kicks as it would be easier for everyone, I rarely use it so the bandwidth should not be a huge deal.


I tried to do a pdf but it came out to 600KB with some compression and the forum limit is 19.5KB [-X

basketcase
June 16th, 2006, 06:32 AM
http://bdmorrison.com/ubuntu/kdegnome.html

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 06:41 AM
http://www.geocities.com/aebcoat/kdegnome.html

here are my changes so far. Unfortunately I cleaned out my geocites junk and in the process of viewing files i uploaded and forgot about I used up 43% off my hourly limit :rolleyes:

By my calculations it has about 3 page loads left before It maxes out, so if anyone wants to save it feel free as it may not last long up their :D

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 06:42 AM
I like those changes.

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 06:46 AM
Thanks, The red text doesnt have to stay necessarily, I just changed to color so it would be easier to see the modifications

Jucato
June 16th, 2006, 06:49 AM
@aysiu: since the target audience are newbies, the proper segue should be what newbies usually do/want to do first.

For example, they first see the desktop. Then what? they look around the panels. How do they launch applications? So you focus on the Application/K Menus, what you can do. Then how do I see my running apps? The taskbars and some things you can do there. How about workspace/virtual deskops, etc. Then keyboard shortcuts, the customization, etc. Maybe also a very short example of the file managers.

Of course, these are just suggestions on how to put the bits and pieces together, not really a suggestion of what the contents should be. Maybe the thing you should ask yourself while writing/arranging it is "what would new users like do to first?" or something like that.

EDIT: I also like Dr. Nick's layout.
Btw, are there any plans to put clickable thumbnails instead of the full-blown pictures?

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 06:59 AM
Well, that does make sense, but a lot of those things--how to run apps and use virtual desktops--are the same in both desktop environments, and I guess I was trying to address... well, what's the difference? It's a question we get here a lot on the forums.

You're speaking to a real need, though. We do need some general new user documentation that assumes users know virtually nothing. That may be a slightly different project.

Or that may be the Fenyx version of this page. As I said before, feel free to modify it as you see fit.

Dr. Nick
June 16th, 2006, 07:11 AM
Ok my page is down for a hour or so lol. Hope everyone who wanted saw it

I thought of a few more differences if anyone needs ideas

- Setting Wallpaper
- Configuring Auto Logon
- Email Applications
- Printer configuration

If someone wants to take up a totally new user startup I just prepared a little something. The gnome aspect is accurate but the kde may be a bit off since im not in it right now. If someone picks up on that approach then feel free to use/modify the below. I may make a writeup soon but for now my desktop isnt screenshot friendly. It looks nothing like the default so I fear it could be a bit confusing.


If your network card was properly detected by the installer and you have internet access then you can start enjoying it immediately.

Want to cruise the web?

In Gnome you can use the popular from Mozilla called Firefox
Applications >> Internet >> Mozilla Firefox

Or you can launch firefox by clcking the blue globe in the top left of your screen

For KDE users their is Konqueror

K Menu >> Inernet >> Konqueror

Want to get on AOL Instant Messanger,MSN,Yahoo!,Jabber, and most any other instant messaging? Dont want to download 6 or more seperate applications to talk your friends. Then Gaim and Kopete are for you

If you have Gnome then Gaim is under

Applications >> Internet >> Gaim

In KDE you can use Kopete running it from

K Menu >> Internet >> Kopete

aysiu
June 16th, 2006, 07:13 AM
Dr. Nick, when I started this thread, this is exactly what I wanted to have happen. I really want this to be a community effort, and like the open source model that Linux distros give us, I'm hoping that this will be an open source documentation of sorts--where people can split and fork off of one document and make different and better documentation.

Jucato
June 16th, 2006, 07:14 AM
As much as I would like to make a "Fenyx version", I'm still trying to re-organize my stuff/projects.

Maybe I was going a bit extreme with the "how to launch apps" example. :D I was just trying to give an example that new users wouldn't jump from "default desktop look" to "keyboard shortcuts" at once. As for "differences", you could show that by default, GNOME's/Ubuntu's Main Menu bar are on the top and grouped into 3 (applications, places, system), while KDE has only 1 K Menu at the bottom, with the System Menu applet as the counterpart of Ubuntu's Places/System menus. Also, you could possibly tell them how to edit the menus in Ubuntu (Alacarte) and KDE (KMenuEdit).

But anyway, I really think thumbnails might be better, especially on a long single page document like this. Saves bandwidth on your server, and makes the pages load faster.

Those are just suggestions, anyway. If it were up to me, I'd prefer "aysiu's version" over mine anytime. :D

awakatanka
June 16th, 2006, 09:24 AM
http://www.guidebookgallery.org/screenshots

A comparison screenshot book of all OS's pitty KDE isn't in there but its a good thing to see diffrence of a OS how the implented a part. They compare the basic things like how does a printing windows looks like under each OS etc.

It isn't exactly what you doing but maybe it gives some ideas.

Again aysiu you are a goodthing for the community, great work and thinking.

iball
June 17th, 2006, 04:37 AM
Hi,
Aysiu - I think your page looks good (or at least the content does :))

One thing I was thinking, was that perhaps it could include some more general info, like what is a DE, what is KDE, what is Gnome, etc, as well as more specific stuff like Aysiu wrote. Also, a table may make it easier to compare the two. I think a list of which distros use which DE by default may be a good idea.

For bandwidth reasons, I think having an external image hoster may be a good idea.

I have created an outline of what I was thinking, http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome
Feel free to critisise and suggest. When I get time, I will be filling it out some more.

--Ian

aysiu
June 17th, 2006, 04:42 AM
iball, I like the way you're thinking.

As I stated earlier, my page is GPL'ed (or whatever the appropriate term is). Take my screenshots, take my words. Use them, modify them, build off of them.

Feel free to appropriate my page into yours and make it better.

iball
June 18th, 2006, 08:55 AM
Hi,
Can you all have a look at my page (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome) and tell me what you think. Please make any relevant suggestions and ideas for improvement.

In an attempt to save bandwidth, the screenshots are just text links where they are relevant. The hope is that people will only view the screenshots they want to, rather than loading all of them.

I have tried to make it as balanced as possible. I have used Gnome since Redhat 7 (Gnome 1.2 or something). The first version of KDE that I tried was version 2.something. I do prefer KDE, but I have tried to be fair to Gnome (particularly seeing how far it has come since v 1.2 :))

As with Aysiu's page, feel free to copy whatever you want, but please acknowledge me :)

Thanks
--Ian

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 09:01 AM
I like what you've done, iball.

It's totally different from mine, though, and that's okay.

iball
June 18th, 2006, 09:05 AM
I like what you've done, iball.

It's totally different from mine, though, and that's okay.

I have pinched some screenshots and some of the text in the comparisons are your's.

--Ian

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 09:07 AM
Cool. Keep us posted on any future changes.

awakatanka
June 18th, 2006, 09:53 AM
I think there is a small mistake in theme section of KDE.

Icons can be easly installed with the theme manager our icon section in kcontrol / Sysytem settings. They don't need extraction to the right map they install from a tar our any package.( if they are setup the right way)

Thememanager only change the background,colors and windows style. The rest it expect to be already installed.

Windows decorater needs extraction and mostly configure and make.

Most people think a theme is a windows decoration but don't know about thememanager because its hidden in kubuntu. ( its a bad thememanager ). Mostly the complains are about the windows decoration and not about the thememanager.

BWF89
June 18th, 2006, 01:13 PM
I dont know if this was mentioned before the thread (im not going to read through 8 pages) but if Ubuntu is an officially 3 desktop envioment distro shouldn't we include Xfce in the comparison chart?

Jucato
June 18th, 2006, 01:36 PM
Well, it is a KDE/GNOME comparison page, so Xfce doesn't fall into place. I think aysiu mentioned somewhere in this thread that he wants to focus on just the 2, since it's the most commonly asked question. Also, it's a comparison of KDE and GNOME, using Kubuntu and Ubuntu as examples, not a comparison of Kubuntu, Ubuntu and Xubuntu.

Biltong (Dee)
June 18th, 2006, 04:23 PM
This is BRILLIANT.

Thanks Aysiu and to all the mirrors.

I am female, in my 40's and up until 2 months ago had never even heard of anything other than Windows, so I guess I am your ideal test-candidate. :-)

The article is well thought out and makes perfect sense.
I can't volunteer my expertise, as I have none, but I can volunteer my LACK of expertise.

So, hey, you want a guinea-pig to try out your articles on I'm your man...erm woman!

aysiu
June 18th, 2006, 05:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback, Biltong. It's much appreciated.

We'll keep working to improve our sites/mirrors, of course.

I just created the original page because it fills a need. It's far from perfect, but I'd rather have something half-working than have nothing at all.

Thanks again for the reassurance.

iball
June 19th, 2006, 03:04 AM
I dont know if this was mentioned before the thread (im not going to read through 8 pages) but if Ubuntu is an officially 3 desktop envioment distro shouldn't we include Xfce in the comparison chart?

As Fenyx said - this is a comparison between Gnome / KDE. I know XFCE is a "Desktop Environment", but most distros default to either Gnome or KDE. That is also one of the common questions newbies ask is "Should I use Gnome or KDE?".

Another problem is if we include XFCE, then why not Window Manages, such as Fluxbox, Blackbox, Windowmaker, TWM ... If you read my version (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome), the main comparisons are in a table. Including other GUIs means adding more columns, which would then be too wide to fit on a screen. I have also tried to include other distros, so that the page can help people using any distro.

I might add a section at the end about other Desktop Environments and Window Managers. Not a comparisson, just an aknowledgement that they exist. What do you guys think?

--Ian

Iandefor
June 19th, 2006, 03:27 AM
I like this idea. I've got a friend who does web-design; if you wanted, I could talk to him and see if he'd do a bit of sprucing-up of your page. I've seen him work bloody miracles with CSS.

Just putting it out there.

iball
June 19th, 2006, 03:35 AM
I like this idea. I've got a friend who does web-design; if you wanted, I could talk to him and see if he'd do a bit of sprucing-up of your page. I've seen him work bloody miracles with CSS.

Just putting it out there.

My website is actually done using the Plone CMS, so this may be easier said than done... For any other websites that are using plain HTML, then this would be an excellent idea.

Having said that, if anyone has any ideas how to improve the looks of my page, it would be much appreciated. I think at the moment that getting the content right is important.

Awakatanka - can you please clarify? I am not really sure what you are saying. If you could point out the errors it would be appreciated, because I think we all want to get this right. Thanks.

--Ian

aysiu
June 19th, 2006, 04:14 AM
I'd just like to echo what iball said and add something else.

New users often say, "What's the difference between KDE and Gnome?" XFCE isn't something they discover until later. I don't see why we should throw that in, too--just makes things more complicated.

Also, with KDE and Gnome, there's no easy answer. With XFCE, there is. If you have very little RAM, use XFCE. That's it. You don't have to do a whole song-and-dance about the different philosophical approaches or what the interface looks like, etc.

drizek
June 19th, 2006, 05:56 AM
If we are going to add a performance paragraph, we can throw xfce in there too.

Performance-

Although both Ubuntu and Kubuntu are excellent performers, Kubuntu is recommended if you have a slower machine with less memory(recommended too strong a word?). Desktop Environments and Window Managers such as XFCE(Xubuntu), Enlightenment or Openbox are designed for more experienced users and sacrifice ease of use for speed and power.

Its a little vague, but its a start i guess.

Oh, and if you ever get dugg or /.'ed those imageshack links will die. Youre going to have to host them yourself and hope that duggmirror caches the page before your page dies.

iball
June 19th, 2006, 09:42 AM
I have added a paragraph about performance, on my version. (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome/)


Performance

On a modern machine, performance is not a major issue. Both KDE and Gnome are reasonably fast, and there are endless arguments about which one is faster. The reason this argument is never resolved, is that there is very little difference between the performance of the two.

Some advanced users, and those with machines with limited resources prefer a more light-weight GUI. A desktop environment with lower system requirements than KDE and Gnome is XFCE. XFCE provides a basic DE, with a panel and basic file manager. Unlike KDE and Gnome, it does not provide a large range of applications. XUbuntu is a part of the Ubuntu project that uses XFCE as the desktop.

Other users may prefer to use a Window Manager. A Window manager simply controls the appearence of windows on your desktop. Window Managers do not provide any applications, icons, panels, etc. Some common window managers include Blackbox, Fluxbox, IceWM, Window Maker and Enlightenment KDE uses the Kwin window manager by default, and Gnome uses Metacity.

I have provided links to each of these window managers, Xubuntu and XFCE.

What do you guys think?
--Ian

benplaut
June 19th, 2006, 10:38 AM
i'm in the process of writing one comparing a few WMs, right now.

As for KvsG... this can't be written by just anyone. It has to be written by someone who has used both extensively, and eventually decided to use... neither.

I'm not volunteering, i'm a biased bastard ;)

awakatanka
June 19th, 2006, 11:14 AM
Awakatanka - can you please clarify? I am not really sure what you are saying. If you could point out the errors it would be appreciated, because I think we all want to get this right. Thanks.

--Ian
The section Themes you wrote for kde : To install themes or icons in KDE, you often have to extract a theme manually to a particular directory. KDE has its own "Look" site, too.

You don't need extraction you can install them if the still in tar our gz. Ofcourse this only counts if its packed the right way.

The only thing that need extraction is windows decorations it mostly need ./configure and make to get installed. Windows decoration is mostly mistaken by people thinking this is the thememanager but it is not.

=D> for all hard work that all people do.

iball
June 19th, 2006, 11:38 AM
i'm in the process of writing one comparing a few WMs, right now.

As for KvsG... this can't be written by just anyone. It has to be written by someone who has used both extensively, and eventually decided to use... neither.

I'm not volunteering, i'm a biased bastard ;)

Are you concentrating on just WIndow Managers, or are you including Gnome and KDE as well. Send me a link when you get it online...

As I said in a previous post, I have used KDE and Gnome for about 5 years, and I now mainly use KDE, but I can see the strengths of Gnome and use it from time to time (I have used almost every release since about 1.2). I don't think anyone is pretending to know everything about KDE or Gnome - I know I'm not. That is why I invite anyone who has more knowledge than me to contribute, or take my work and improve it. I know Aysiu has said the same thing.

It would be good if you could post the reasons why you have decided to use neither, so that some of it can be incorporated into the comparisson. Any non-biased comparison needs both +ve and -ve points.

--Ian

drizek
June 20th, 2006, 02:59 AM
I have added a paragraph about performance, on my version. (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome/)



I have provided links to each of these window managers, Xubuntu and XFCE.

What do you guys think?
--Ian

I think you should mention that kde and gnome perform "very well" on modern machines, and get rid of the part about it not being a big issue. It isnt an issue at all and it shouldnt be mentioned.

Replace "GUI" with "Desktop". The u in Xubuntu is not capitalized.

appearance is spelled incorrectly. Replace both blackbox and fluxbox with openbox as it seems to be the most popular of the boxes ATM. Either that or just replace blackbox with openbox. Window Maker isnt worth mentioning imo. talking about Kwin/metacity makes it kinda confusing and isnt really neccessary.

Its very good overall though IMHO.

iball
June 20th, 2006, 03:09 AM
OK. I have made those changes.

Thanks for pointing out spelling errors - my spelling is really bad, and the spellchecker does not work in the Plone Editor.

--Ian

stalefries
July 31st, 2006, 10:35 PM
I'm not sure if this is mentioned yet (9 pages of content is too much for me), but I think it would be a good idea to make short little screencasts of basic actions in both Gnome and KDE. For example, you guys could record yourselves opening, let's say, The GIMP in each environment. Of course, you would have to do this with default settings, and not your own custom settings. You could make a few of these highlighting the different ways of doing things in each environment, and post them online.

Asfor the recording application, I can think of 3. There's one called wink that will output a nice low-bandwidth Flash animation. It has more advanced features such as text boxes and Next Previous buttons, but is a little hard to get used to.

One other program is Istanbul. It's very simple. Click record, do stuff, click stop. It outputs an ogg theora video, which will be very high bandwidth, although you can use mencoder to cut it down, and convert it to other formats.

The last method is to use a program whose name I can't remember now. It outputs animated gifs, which can then be compressed with The GIMP's animation tools, effectively cutting down on bandwidth significantly. Also, there's no need for special plugins or programs, all you need is a web browser. Now I remember! Byzanz!

Here's links to each of these:
Wink: http://www.debugmode.com/wink/
Istanbul: http://live.gnome.org/Istanbul
Byzanz: http://people.freedesktop.org/~company/byzanz/

A deeper discussion of the pros and cons of desktop recording applications can be found here: http://www.advogato.org/person/company/diary.html?start=26

Hope this helps!

aysiu
July 31st, 2006, 10:41 PM
That sounds like a great idea in theory, but I'm a little tutorial-burned-out right now, and bandwidth is also the last thing I have to spare.

Would using GIMP be different in KDE than in Gnome (apart from how long it takes to load)?

GuitarHero
July 31st, 2006, 11:24 PM
I can make or help make a web site for it and possibly host it.

Dr. Nick
August 1st, 2006, 12:48 AM
Actually I do not think the gimp is included in kubuntu by default, it uses some other program similar to the gimp, its name escapes me though.

I think I know what you mean though, gimp was just an example.

I wouldnt mind helping with a few writeups or something. My system is too far from default to be used for screenshots, and I dont have a virtual machine set up at the moment or another machine running a stock install

josys36
August 1st, 2006, 12:51 AM
I think you should include XFCE.

Jason

Jucato
August 1st, 2006, 01:14 AM
@Dr. Nick: The name of the app is Krita (which means "chalk" or "pencil" in Swedish). Although it's comparable to the GIMP, Krita isn't KDE's version of the GIMP.

@josys36: It was already mentioned, quite a couple of times actually, why aysiu didn't/wouldn't include Xfce. Bottom line: anyone is welcome to make their own KDE-GNOME-Xfce comparison page, but aysiu is sticking to KDE-GNOME.

iball
August 1st, 2006, 01:24 AM
Stalefries: With any kind of animation, bandwidth is a huge issue. The images take enough, without video as well.

I think we discussed that this was to be a comparison page, rather than a comprehensive how-to.

GuitarHero: Please have a look at my version (click here (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome)) of this, and feel free to make any suggestions (either here or email me). Thanks for your help.

Josys: On my version, I have a section on other desktops other that KDE and Gnome. The purpose of writing this page was to compare the two major desktops, and attempt to answer the main questions newbies ask: should I use KDE or Gnome, and what is the difference?
As discussed previously, if we include XFCE, why not fluxbox, FVWM ....

--Ian

arnieboy
August 1st, 2006, 01:30 AM
slightly off topic here... but standalone Kubuntu 6.06 is a buggy beast at best. If one truly wants to benchmark performance of KDE versus Gnome, one should compare Mepis 6 and Ubuntu 6.06.
aysiu: I would also suggest you rewrite your essay with the above statement in mind.

iball
August 1st, 2006, 01:35 AM
slightly off topic here... but standalone Kubuntu 6.06 is a buggy beast at best. If one truly wants to benchmark performance of KDE versus Gnome, one should compare Mepis 6 and Ubuntu 6.06

Perhaps, but AFAIK we weren't really comparing performance since that is similar on a modern machine. Certainly my interpretation was to do a feature comparison rather than performance.

On my version (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome), I have included (and will do more when I get time) KDE and Gnome from other distros such as Fedora. It is based mainly on Ubuntu / Kubuntu.

--Ian

djsroknrol
August 1st, 2006, 01:36 AM
aysiu;

instead of "comparing" the two, why not "differentiate" between the two?. It's a war of words either way and helping is what's it's all about, right?

Great distros and good community are ways to win the masses...the right wording influences others...my .02.

On to business..my limited Gnome experience is at your service. If you don't have a layout as of yet, may I suggest a two column one? Let me know if I can help.

iball
August 1st, 2006, 01:42 AM
djsroknrol: check out my version (http://iball.is-a-geek.org/Members/admin/linux/kde-versus-gnome). If you have any suggestions, either post here or email me.

I have used a two column table, as I think it is clearer than just a list.

A comparison also includes differention :)

--Ian

Jucato
August 1st, 2006, 01:46 AM
"differentiate" implies stating where two or more things diverge or differ.

"compare" implies both similarities and differences.

IMHO, compare is a more general and more encompassing.

djsroknrol
August 1st, 2006, 02:00 AM
iball...nice layout..very precise. Again all, the point of my last post was to say that wording can make a difference. They're both GUI's and to point out the differences of the two gives the reader a better understanding of his choice between the two...

Jucato
August 1st, 2006, 02:24 AM
Ok, this might be a long one...

Since I'm no nearer in making my own "comparison" page, I'll just have to offer some very minor corrections for aysiu's and iball's pages.

1. Desktop/User Preferences: AFAIK, GNOME also has gnome-control-center which offers a central place for settings, something like KDE's KControl. I'm not sure, however, if GNOME Control Center is as comprehensive as KControl.

2. Keyboard shortcuts:
- KDE: you are not limited to menu items in K Menu. KControl > Regional & Accessibility > Input Actions give more options for creating shortcuts for commands, mouse gestures, etc., with the same ease of just pressing the key combination you want.
- GNOME: Another disadvantage is that you have to know the key code for a particular key. For example, on my system, the Windows key is <Mod4>, Esc is Escape, etc.

3. Installing themes in KDE:
- You absolutely do not need to extract .tar.gz files into directories in order to install them. Icons, Splash Screens, KDM Themes have "Install New Theme" buttons that accept .tar.gz files. In fact, they only accept .tar.gz files.
-Unfortunately, Styles (comparable to GNOME's Controls) usually need to be compiled because each style is a totally new engine, whereas GNOME only uses one control engine (GTK), which can have different themes.
- Same goes for Window Decorations. KWin can use different window decoration engines other than it's own. Some of these engines, deKorator and IceWM, can be themed. GNOME, on the other hand, uses Metacity's engine, which can also be themed.

4. File Associations in KDE could also be set through Konqueror > Settings menu > Configure Konqueror.
They could also be set by:
- right-clicking on a file
- choosing "Open With" then "Other..."
- choosing what program you want to open it with
- checking the "Remember application association for this type of file" option.

So far, those are the only things I've noticed. Hope they help in clarifying some things.

panickedthumb
August 1st, 2006, 05:05 AM
why not include xfce, fvwm, the *boxes, e16/17, the *steps, ratpoison, etc, etc, etc. Gnome and KDE are the big ones, so for this comparison page they're the most important, but a full on comparison of all the popular ones and not so popular ones could be cool too... give a full on explanation of all of them...

gnomeuser
August 1st, 2006, 05:23 AM
why not include xfce, fvwm, the *boxes, e16/17, the *steps, ratpoison, etc, etc, etc. Gnome and KDE are the big ones, so for this comparison page they're the most important, but a full on comparison of all the popular ones and not so popular ones could be cool too... give a full on explanation of all of them...

A daunting task also I doubt anyone who sits down and writes a description of a DE is unbiased. Besides doing a side by side comparison wouldn't convey the experience of using the desktop, which at least on GNOME is important in that GNOME strives for consistency between applications. Once you learn how to use one application the entire fleet of applications is at your command.

No description beats actually trying something, just like you can't do Linux justice with words and screenshots. The best thing would be a short guide to using the various desktops and a link to a live CD along with encouragement to try it out. Then the user can make his choice in an informed manner. Maybe a nice project would be a Live DVD that demonstrates say GNOME, KDE and XFce (which seems to be the option Ubuntu has mature offerings in - Fluxbox hardly needs introduction and if you pick that one you know what you are doing and hwat you want). This kind of project would also be a good source of feedback for the various desktops, the user could say "I like the way this works in foo better but otherwise your offering is the best".

Jucato
August 1st, 2006, 05:44 AM
Well, let's all take into consideration that aysiu/iball will be making this page, that he is trying to answer one of the most common question (GNOME vs KDE), and that he has decided, for reasons mentioned in previous posts, to limit the page to GNOME and KDE.

And let us also take into consideration that someone else (you, me, anybody) is free to make a similar kind of page that would address these other needs. It just so happens that "this" particular page by aysiu and iball are focused on GNOME and KDE only. Maybe someone who has the resources, time, and patience to do so.

Derek Djons
August 1st, 2006, 07:51 AM
This is a very interesting project I would like to participate in. I only fear my experience / knowledge won't be enough.

But there are surely quite some good people to find for this project though.

iball
August 1st, 2006, 08:17 AM
This is a very interesting project I would like to participate in. I only fear my experience / knowledge won't be enough.

But there are surely quite some good people to find for this project though.

Everyone has a contribution to make :) Have a look at both my page and aysiu's, and comment on them. Whatever knowledge you have will be useful, you may find some factual errors, or have suggestions for other comparisons.

--Ian

Derek Djons
August 2nd, 2006, 07:48 AM
Aysiu, you can count on me. I don't know how much valuable information I can provide but I certainly see this opportunity of two sides, one... learning of it and two... contributing with the info I know.

aysiu
August 2nd, 2006, 04:07 PM
If you want to use my page as a starting template, you're welcome to it--screenshots, text, and all. Modify as you see fit.

lerrup
September 8th, 2006, 02:07 PM
I get what you're trying to do here, and I apologise for coming into this late, but I was looking for something else.

I would say that why not just encourage people to install both and make their minds up from experience? The only thing standing in their way is hard disc space. On any half way modern setup they should have enough and then they can try themselves, hopefully with little flaming or stupidity.

They both have their strengths and weaknesses and so I use both.

aysiu
September 8th, 2006, 04:11 PM
This project doesn't stop you in any way from recommending people install both. Some people want a little preview, though, before they decide an install is worth their time--and it does take time, not just hard drive space.

Jucato
September 8th, 2006, 04:52 PM
Hi aysiu!

I was wondering if you were able to read/consider a few of the things I pointed out in post #101?

aysiu
September 8th, 2006, 05:27 PM
Hi aysiu!

I was wondering if you were able to read/consider a few of the things I pointed out in post #101?
Fenyx, my page is open source (or copylefted, or whatever the proper term is). Feel free to take whatever I've got and modify it as you see fit.