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Pithikos
April 14th, 2012, 11:10 AM
Why do some people hate Apple that much?
Is there a big difference between Apple and Microsoft?

sisco311
April 14th, 2012, 11:13 AM
Moved to Recurring Discussions.

josephmills
April 14th, 2012, 11:15 AM
I dont like em because there not FOSS or Dont even try to be.

roelforg
April 14th, 2012, 11:39 AM
Vendor-Lockin

They make good phones (if you forget the vendor-lockin and itunes),
i have one of their phones (i hate apple, but they make some d*** good phones with good ui).
But i never hook it to a pc because itunes keeps wanting to completely erase it.
But they're mostly just overpriced and anti-choise and want all your money (and make it impossible to create apps for their systems w/o spending a boat-load of money on a mac).
That and the fact they want as much info about you as they can (legally and illegally) get their hands on.

Sylos
April 14th, 2012, 12:14 PM
Vendor-Lockin



+1 for that!

I also find their products to be overpriced and underused for my liking. I know a few people with Iphones/Ipads and they do very little with them. I constantly hear them talk of the benefits they get using their big white elephant mobile gadgets and find myself thinking "I could get the same thing form my Ubuntu if I wanted it". But 9 times out of 10 I dont!

Anyhow, Im a grumpy old man so what do I know?

I used to love apple in the days when i was studying music recording techniques - mac was the way to go for professional audio and no 2 ways about it! Now I see nothing but an expensive accessory, to be worn like an expensive bracelet or some such. Ooooh - I've got an Ipad - Dont you have one? Evidently your not in the modern age!

An Ipad Im sure could have many laudable uses - I've only ever seen one in the wild!

Cheers

r-senior
April 14th, 2012, 12:46 PM
I dont like em because there not FOSS or Dont even try to be.
That's not quite correct. I'm not going to defend Apple as a shining example of open-source software, but they use more open source components than you might think.

http://www.apple.com/opensource/

Standard iPhone and iPad applications are built with the Clang LLVM compiler for C/C++/Objective-C that Apple sponsor:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clang

Paqman
April 15th, 2012, 01:52 AM
That's not quite correct. I'm not going to defend Apple as a shining example of open-source software, but they use more open source components than you might think.


In fact some of the open source software on your machine comes to you from Apple (CUPS for one).

ratcheer
April 15th, 2012, 02:31 AM
In fact some of the open source software on your machine comes to you from Apple (CUPS for one).

Except, a month or so ago, Apple announced that they would no longer support CUPS for Linux systems.

Tim

zombifier25
April 15th, 2012, 03:23 AM
Except, a month or so ago, Apple announced that they would no longer support CUPS for Linux systems.

Tim
hmm can you give us the link? I can't seem to find this announcement anywhere.

r-senior
April 15th, 2012, 11:47 AM
Found this: http://www.unixmen.com/201202-apple-orphans-linux-cups-features-handicaps-open-source-printing/

3rdalbum
April 15th, 2012, 04:53 PM
I used to be a Mac user.

Then my fairly-new iMac became unable to be upgraded to a newer OS. And newer programs required the newer OS. Especially iTunes, necessary for use with an iPod.

So I bought a cheap PC to replace my obsolete couple-of-years-old iMac. The cheap PC still runs with the latest Ubuntu and could even be updated to Windows 7 if I so desired.

Since then I've started to dislike Apple due to them claiming that they have "UNIX security", but their engineers destroying that security with silly hacks and attempts to work around the inbuilt security system. I don't like the lack of choice available for the iOS platforms (choice of hardware or software) and I especially pity the iPhone's weak-as radio hardware.

I dislike that Apple gave very little support to OpenDarwin developers, who were being encouraged to work on the operating system for Apple's benefit, for no credit and usually no code being accepted at all. I also find it misleading that Apple claims that you can download the Mac OS X kernel's source code; the actual shipping kernel contains several blobs.

trivialpackets
April 15th, 2012, 05:31 PM
I don't dislike apple, although they certainly have their share of shady practices going on like everyone else seems to. I'm not 100% sold on the os to be honest. The hardware seems top notch, and it's certainly priced that way.

Simian Man
April 15th, 2012, 05:35 PM
Because the company and their products are exceedingly overrated. For whatever reason, it's human nature to try to correct the balance.

gardnan
April 15th, 2012, 05:54 PM
Because the company and their products are exceedingly overrated. For whatever reason, it's human nature to try to correct the balance.

This.

Also, Apple has a level of pretension that rivals some of the most obnoxious luxury brands, but in my opinion they fail to deliver on the hype. I feel like their advertising appeals to the same group of people though. "Buy this product and you will be smarter, stronger, better than all of those 'lesser' people that use Windows or Linux".

Also, note that most of their open source accomplishments revolve around using open source projects in their products, almost never to creating or developing software to be open source.

dodle
April 15th, 2012, 06:09 PM
...my fairly-new iMac became unable to be upgraded...

Since Apple completely dropped support for the PowerPC other software developers have been dropping it. I can't get an updated version of Firefox for my IMac G5.


...the company and their products are exceedingly overrated.

No kidding. I showed my Sansa Clip MP3 player to my brother-in-law, and his reply was basically "Oh, you got a generic IPod".

Paqman
April 15th, 2012, 06:53 PM
Except, a month or so ago, Apple announced that they would no longer support CUPS for Linux systems.

Tim

Bummer.

<stares into crystal ball>

I foresee forkage in the near future. Companies like Red Hat and Canonical can't afford for CUPS to go unmaintained.

TeoBigusGeekus
April 15th, 2012, 07:26 PM
So I bought a cheap PC to replace my obsolete couple-of-years-old iMac.
:shock: My pc became 8 years old on January...

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 07:44 PM
The answer is simple..... Tall poppy syndrome.

Paqman
April 15th, 2012, 08:05 PM
The answer is simple..... Tall poppy syndrome.

There's an element of that from some people, but others have perfectly reasonable reasons to dislike Apple. It would be surprising if a company who's business practices were built around vendor lock-in and proprietary software were particularly popular with a Linux crowd.

Even reading this thread you can see that people's actual opinions cover a range of motivations and come in varying strengths. In fact I'd say that you get a lot more variation from this forum in opinions on Apple than you do on the other big hate figures like Microsoft and Google.

SemiExpert
April 15th, 2012, 08:22 PM
I'm not an Apple fan, but I have to admit that they have a coherent line of products, all of which seem to work fairly well out of the box, despite, or perhaps because of, the limited functionality and connectivity options. In contrast, the Windows PC OEMs have huge and confusing product lines, many of which offer a stunning range of connectivity and hardware options, but are generally poor in quality and reliability. Right now, I no longer recommend Windows PCs to friends. It's just simpler and safer to say "Go to the Apple Store and don't forget to buy AppleCare."

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 08:41 PM
The vast majority of Windows based systems are cheaply built low cost mass consumer market products of very low build quality. The laptops have cheap plastics that click and flex, there systems overheat especially HP.

In the Windows based systems you need to look at some of the Enterprise market focused products in order to get better build quality but with lesser feature sets.

However Apple products are of high build quality and consistency across the range.

The competition in the phone sector is better.

Google OS based products are only worth this mention.

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 08:45 PM
i like the design of alot of the apple hardware, but have issues with how massively expensive their stuff is and the fact that it seems super restrictive (ie. 'the Apple way, or the highway'). i mean you can get one one of the alienware super-laptops for the same as a macbook pro, or alternatively get a laptop with macbook specs for two thirds of the price.

also i do actually have an iphone 3gs (given to me as payment for services rendered, from a friend) i dropped it and smashed the screen, also busted the LCD screen. when i went to the apple store they wanted to charge me £120 to replace it, with no other option (and apparently melt down the old phone for it's constituent bits). £15 spent on ebay for new glass and a new LCD, now it is working fine, it just seems over-priced.

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 09:24 PM
also i do actually have an iphone 3gs (given to me as payment for services rendered, from a friend) i dropped it and smashed the screen, also busted the LCD screen. when i went to the apple store they wanted to charge me £120 to replace it, with no other option (and apparently melt down the old phone for it's constituent bits). £15 spent on ebay for new glass and a new LCD, now it is working fine, it just seems over-priced.

Why should it cost Apple for your carelessness. If you crashed your Car should GM, Ford, Toyota etc pick up the tab?

rg4w
April 15th, 2012, 09:35 PM
The answer is simple..... Tall poppy syndrome.
A convenient phrase for dismissing all other comments without actually addressing the particular merits of any of them. Funny, but for all your Apple evangelism I think I missed the post where you had something positive to say about Linux. I'm sure it's here; must be my shortcoming that I haven't come across it.

I don't hate Apple, and in fact use their OSes daily. But I'm not so quick to dismiss the entire range of possible criticisms against the company, since of course they are not magic unicorns but simple mortals with weaknesses, failures, and the occasional short-sightedness, such as:

http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 09:46 PM
A convenient phrase for dismissing all other comments without actually addressing the particular merits of any of them. Funny, but for all your Apple evangelism I think I missed the post where you had something positive to say about Linux. I'm sure it's here; must be my shortcoming that I haven't come across it.

I don't hate Apple, and in fact use their OSes daily. But I'm not so quick to dismiss the entire range of possible criticisms against the company, since of course they are not magic unicorns but simple mortals with weaknesses, failures, and the occasional short-sightedness, such as:

http://whydoeseverythingsuck.com/2010/04/jobs-bans-non-c-libraries-insane.html


This thread is not about the pros and cons of Linux

My answer to the question why hate on Apple being Tall poppy syndrome is valid. The meaning of the term is "describe a social phenomenon in which people or entities of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers."

Given that this is my take on the 'hate on Apple' phenomenon it is valid and my right to post same is valid.

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 09:56 PM
Why should it cost Apple for your carelessness. If you crashed your Car should GM, Ford, Toyota etc pick up the tab?

i'm not saying that they should pay for anything i'm happy to pay(-ish). but the idea of paying an extra £105 for them to sort it out seems insane. likewise i know a couple of people who have damaged their macbook pro's via water damage, and have found that cost to get the thing fixed (if they doesn't have 'apple care') is almost as much as a new one (although only the logic board needs replacing).

what i object to is the attitude of a company that not only want to control exactly what hardware and software you use together and how you use it, but pretend to have a support system which is actually a super over-exploited extra revenue channel. not to mention the whole Foxconn (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/01/10/300-chinese-foxconn-workers-threaten-mass-suicide_n_1196345.html?ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false#sb=2135938) thing (although i'm sure that this is a problem with other companies aswell).

edit -> just to clarify, foxconn are a main supplier to apple.

rg4w
April 15th, 2012, 10:18 PM
This thread is not about the pros and cons of Linux
Yes, apparently few of the threads you participate in are.


My answer to the question why hate on Apple being Tall poppy syndrome is valid. The meaning of the term is "describe a social phenomenon in which people or entities of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers."

Given that this is my take on the 'hate on Apple' phenomenon it is valid and my right to post same is valid.Of course, just as I have my right to note that it's at very least challenging if not rationally impossible to suggest that any single answer will be able to fully address the wide range of criticisms that can be made about a company.

Do you honestly believe it is not possible to have any valid criticism of Apple?

I agree with you that in some cases for specific claims the "tall poppy" syndrome may apply.

But to dismiss all possible criticisms with that one remark seems a bit, shall we say, broad.

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 10:25 PM
Yes, apparently few of the threads you participate in are.

Of course, just as I have my right to note that it's at very least challenging if not rationally impossible to suggest that any single answer will be able to fully address the wide range of criticisms that can be made about a company.

Do you honestly believe it is not possible to have any valid criticism of Apple?

I agree with you that in some cases for specific claims the "tall poppy" syndrome may apply.

But to dismiss all possible criticisms with that one remark seems a bit, shall we say, broad.

The fact that I have been using Linux since the early 90's and have been a member of ubuntu Forums since day one and an Administrator or Moderator for 99% of my time here would indicate I have a lot of support for Linux and or ubuntu.

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 10:32 PM
just thought i'd share this. (http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-earns-2-per-handset-apple-575)

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 10:36 PM
just thought i'd share this. (http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-earns-2-per-handset-apple-575)

They have a very successful business model.

rg4w
April 15th, 2012, 10:42 PM
just thought i'd share this. (http://mobile.slashdot.org/story/12/04/08/0546247/google-earns-2-per-handset-apple-575)

Google makes phones? :\

xedi
April 15th, 2012, 10:42 PM
As mentioned the extreme vendor lock-in strategy of Apple is the most concerning aspect to me. Any software and hardware specific to Apple is only of use on a very limited range of devices. If you buy an app for your mac or iPhone, you will only be able to use it on overpriced Mac hardware. All the Mac specific adaptors similarly will be useless as soon as you want to use another device.

Another aspect is their obsession with control. On mobile platforms you can only get software from their app store and therefore they have full control over what kind of software you are allowed to install. Want to install flash? Forget it, Apple does not want you to install it. This is kind of the opposite of software freedom, I would rather say it's software slavery.

This also applies to their hardware. Good luck trying to get an .flac song on an iPod in Linux e.g. You can't officially because Apple only wants you to use their iTunes to use with Ipods, which is not available under Linux and does not support .flac in the first place. It seems rather barely tolerating import of .mp3 but converts everything into Apple formats as best it can.

A general attitude of Apple that their users are too dumb for everything so they have to remove as many options and capabilities of their devices as possible (which is one of their excuses for their control obsession).

So that's a few aspects that come to my mind why I dislike Apple.

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 10:42 PM
They have a very successful business model.
indeed... still, dollar + exploitation = generally bad (IMO).

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 10:51 PM
indeed... still, dollar + exploitation = generally bad (IMO).


it's not exploitation in the negative sense. It is exploitation in the sense that they are exploiting their talents and resources to meet their business objectives, it is not a bad thing.

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 10:54 PM
As mentioned the extreme vendor lock-in strategy of Apple is the most concerning aspect to me. Any software and hardware specific to Apple is only of use on a very limited range of devices. If you buy an app for your mac or iPhone, you will only be able to use it on overpriced Mac hardware. All the Mac specific adaptors similarly will be useless as soon as you want to use another device.

Another aspect is their obsession with control. On mobile platforms you can only get software from their app store and therefore they have full control over what kind of software you are allowed to install. Want to install flash? Forget it, Apple does not want you to install it. This is kind of the opposite of software freedom, I would rather say it's software slavery.

This also applies to their hardware. Good luck trying to get an .flac song on an iPod in Linux e.g. You can't officially because Apple only wants you to use their iTunes to use with Ipods, which is not available under Linux and does not support .flac in the first place. It seems rather barely tolerating import of .mp3 but converts everything into Apple formats as best it can.

A general attitude of Apple that their users are too dumb for everything so they have to remove as many options and capabilities of their devices as possible (which is one of their excuses for their control obsession).

So that's a few aspects that come to my mind why I dislike Apple.

Don't want to buy Mac or IOS Apps or software? don't buy Apple products, pssst they are not compulsory;)

xedi
April 15th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Don't want to buy Mac or IOS Apps or software? don't buy Apple products, pssst they are not compulsory;)

I know that, I also don't want to go the Stallman route that Apple is the antichrist of computing or anything but the question is why people hate Apple and I provided my reasons why I personally don't like their products and general strategy and thus why I would not buy their products at the moment.

NadirPoint
April 15th, 2012, 11:04 PM
I'm not an Apple fan, but I have to admit that they have a coherent line of products, all of which seem to work fairly well out of the box, despite, or perhaps because of, the limited functionality and connectivity options. In contrast, the Windows PC OEMs have huge and confusing product lines, many of which offer a stunning range of connectivity and hardware options, but are generally poor in quality and reliability. Right now, I no longer recommend Windows PCs to friends. It's just simpler and safer to say "Go to the Apple Store and don't forget to buy AppleCare."
Well said. I might add for me personally, despite being inexorably tied to iTunes and Windoze (via vbox in my case), the iPhone is an amazingly well integrated, useful and reliable mobile device. I hate myself for loving it.

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 11:07 PM
This whole "hate" phenomenon is crazy. I don't hate Apple, I don't hate Android, I don't hate Windows, I don't hate Linux.

I use Windows when appropriate, I use Linux when appropriate, I use IOS and OSX when appropriate.

I buy Apple hardware because after considerable evaluation and real life experience both in the consumer and enterprise markets their products are by far the best.

NadirPoint
April 15th, 2012, 11:11 PM
I don't hate Apple, I don't hate Android, I don't hate Windows, I don't hate Linux.
Me neither, really. I hate people who exert evil influence in the marketplace. Seems to be a few more than average in Redmond and Cupertino.

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 11:23 PM
it's not exploitation in the negative sense. It is exploitation in the sense that they are exploiting their talents and resources to meet their business objectives, it is not a bad thing.
hmm, 'not exploitation in the negative sense'. i appreciate that the word exploitation is unclear in the way i used it (and also that it is miss-associated often as 'bad'). however, i direct you to my previous link regarding foxconn, or alternatively this (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/business/apple-supplier-in-china-pledges-changes-in-working-conditions.html?pagewanted=all)one. the exploitation i am referring to is of the migrant chinese (and tiwanese) migrant worker population, not the 'genius' guys, or the folk at infinite loop, san jose, CA.

KiwiNZ
April 15th, 2012, 11:25 PM
hmm, 'not exploitation in the negative sense'. i appreciate that the word exploitation is unclear in the way i used it (and also that it is miss-associated often as 'bad'). however, i direct you to my previous link regarding foxconn, or alternatively this (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/business/apple-supplier-in-china-pledges-changes-in-working-conditions.html?pagewanted=all)one. the exploitation i am referring to is of the migrant chinese (and tiwanese) migrant worker population, not the 'genius' guys, or the folk at infinite loop, san jose, CA.

You are aware that the whole Foxconn report was a fabrication by the reporter? He has also been stripped of his degree.

rima
April 15th, 2012, 11:27 PM
I heard the gossip abot Foxconn too...but who knows whether it's true or not? It's not just Apple using Foxconn, after all.

In regards to the topic... ame here. I don't hate any machine - that would be stupid and silly of me. Windows, Linux, Android, Unix, OSX...for different purpuses for different people (yes, it's coming off from a 14 year old.)

I don't know but there's something about Apple that irks me the wrong way :P

Below rant is just my opinion and I honestly don't mind whether you like Apple or not. It doesn't make you better or worse. It just means you like/dislike Apple.

To be serious now, I think a lot of their products are overpriced. I'm no Apple hater or lover. It's just nothing special for me, might be to other people, but not to me. To be honest, it doesn't cost very much for such as rich guys as Apple to make any of their products - you pay so much basically just "because it's Apple" and because, right from day one, they demanded very big prices and so, people might have got used to "the big prices" and so pay for them. My opinion, it's just what I saw. Although to be honest, you see so many people with iPhones these days...you know it - when they first came out, people were like: "You have an iPhone, you must be so rich..." but these days (at least around where I live) loads of people have Ipads/Iphones/Ipods it's not actually "hipster" anymore. Sometimes, I even saw 10 year old kids with them or really snobby rich teenagers that just want to rub it in your face that they have an iPhone. It really bugs me. Of course this doesn't apply to everybody - that would be very foolish of me to think so - yet I see those "apples" EVERYWHERE it's not really that impressing to me anymore. I'm still wondering why their market share is "only" 10% or so.
I must say my parents got me a used iPod nano 4th generation last year. At first glance, it seemed very polished and well made. It really, really was. (I hate to admit it but I also love the GUIs, whether it's iOS or Mac OSX) So I hopped over to my computer and got iTunes. Awesome.
Then later on...the more and more I got geeky about computers, I realized...it's just plain silly. It's not only about vendor lock-in. Pay a quid for a crappy rubbish pop song where I can go to a charity shop and get 2 decent ALBUMS for the same price?! Or if I'm looking for something specific, drop over at Tesco's and get and album for 4 quid instead of a tenner. Sorry, but stuff like iTunes remaind me why I pirate too D: Yarr.
Also, the prices seem inconsistent...like you have to pay for their products "a little bit more" in UK than in US. Weird. 0.99 pence and 0.99 cents ARE NOT THE SAME PRICE, MR APPLE!

Mac computers...way, way too expensive. But they are really really good for music and graphics, I must say. My school has one of those Macs for this journalist project and they use it for editing media. I heard they're really awesome.

The only real beef I have with them is how they promise "invulnerability to Windows viruses..." Yes, true, but an average person hears it as: "No viruses in Macs AT ALL BE SAFE FOREVER!" And yet they have a UNIX-like operating system and it's good security measures, in fact people at Apple modify it like crazy so that it strips down and buggers the security model. My opinion.

There's more and more viruses for Macs, I heard. Be careful on what you click - applies to ANY OS :D

Overall - people at Apple are just humans. Humans. And like humans, they make mistakes. Something that seems appealing to one person might not be appealing to another. It's all about choice, really. That's what Linux people keep on constantly remainding, too. Do what you like :) (with sense, of course.) They have very good hardware and software, and really good ideas - computer market might have not been the same without them - it's just how they pull it off might bother some people.

Wanna be a REAL hipster? Get a Linux :p

F.G.
April 15th, 2012, 11:43 PM
You are aware that the whole Foxconn report was a fabrication by the reporter? He has also been stripped of his degree.
i was not aware of this, thank you for letting me know. still, this (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10182824) one is from 2010.

edit -> rima, you make some pretty good points which i think i agree with.

rg4w
April 16th, 2012, 04:25 AM
You are aware that the whole Foxconn report was a fabrication by the reporter? He has also been stripped of his degree.
Which reporter are you referring to?

There are many Foxconn reports, by multiple new agencies.

In response to the ongoing stories, Apple recently agreed to work with Foxconn to revamp working conditions in those factories:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Technology/technology-update-businesscomputing/Apple-Foxconn-to-revamp-China-work-conditions/SP-Article1-832886.aspx

KiwiNZ
April 16th, 2012, 04:31 AM
Which reporter are you referring to?

There are many Foxconn reports, by multiple new agencies.

In response to the ongoing stories, Apple recently agreed to work with Foxconn to revamp working conditions in those factories:
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Technology/technology-update-businesscomputing/Apple-Foxconn-to-revamp-China-work-conditions/SP-Article1-832886.aspx

Mike Daisey

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chelsea-carmona/mike-daisey-retraction_b_1355983.html

aysiu
April 16th, 2012, 04:31 AM
You are aware that the whole Foxconn report was a fabrication by the reporter? He has also been stripped of his degree.
The only fabrication I know of with regard to Foxconn is Mike Daisey's one-man show The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs. Mike Daisey is not a reporter, and I don't know what kind of degree he had revoked. It's also worth noting that many of the things he lied about involved him lying about seeing things first-hand that actually did happen (just not to him or directly around him) at Foxconn.

More details here:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2012/03/retracting-mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory

rg4w
April 16th, 2012, 04:45 AM
The only fabrication I know of with regard to Foxconn is Mike Daisey's one-man show The Agony and Ecstasy of Steve Jobs. Mike Daisey is not a reporter, and I don't know what kind of degree he had revoked. It's also worth noting that many of the things he lied about involved him lying about seeing things first-hand that actually did happen (just not to him or directly around him) at Foxconn.

More details here:
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/blog/2012/03/retracting-mr-daisey-and-the-apple-factory
I'm still waiting to find out which university stripped him of a degree, and what that degree was (since it seems unlikely to have been for journalism, Daisey not being a journalist and all).

KiwiNZ
April 16th, 2012, 04:53 AM
I'm still waiting to find out which university stripped him of a degree, and what that degree was (since it seems unlikely to have been for journalism, Daisey not being a journalist and all).

I am sure if you did some research you will find out

rg4w
April 16th, 2012, 05:09 AM
I am sure if you did some research you will find out
Maybe, but it's not logically possible to prove a negative.

I've only read about 40 articles on the Daisey stuff; I haven't yet come across mention of a university stripping him of a degree.

aysiu
April 16th, 2012, 05:11 AM
I'm still waiting to find out which university stripped him of a degree, and what that degree was (since it seems unlikely to have been for journalism, Daisey not being a journalist and all).
Cornish College of the Arts was going to give Mike Daisey an honorary degree. They decided against doing so:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/04/06/cornish-withdraws-its-honorary-degree-for-mike-daisey

Mike Daisey is an alumnus of Colby College:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Colby_College_people

As far as I know, Colby has not revoked his bachelor's degree.

dpny
April 16th, 2012, 05:22 AM
Anyone posting on this forum right now, and anyone who uses a smartphone, is using a device built by Foxconn, or one of its competitors. There is no way to avoid them.

I'm with the no hate crowd: I use OS X, Windows and Linux every day.

KiwiNZ
April 16th, 2012, 05:27 AM
Maybe, but it's not logically possible to prove a negative.


I can look at the negative pole of a battery and prove in seconds;)

aysiu
April 16th, 2012, 05:47 AM
Anyone posting on this forum right now, and anyone who uses a smartphone, is using a device built by Foxconn, or one of its competitors. There is no way to avoid them. Yes, the focus on Apple is undue.

rg4w
April 16th, 2012, 05:47 AM
Cornish College of the Arts was going to give Mike Daisey an honorary degree. They decided against doing so:
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archives/2012/04/06/cornish-withdraws-its-honorary-degree-for-mike-daisey

Mike Daisey is an alumnus of Colby College:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Colby_College_people

As far as I know, Colby has not revoked his bachelor's degree.
Thanks. Splitting hairs perhaps, but how could one stripped of a degree that had never been received?

This may seem a small detail, but as such it makes an interesting parallel to Daisey's transgression:

The lie Daisey made was claiming to have personally interviewed victims of the Chengdu explosion and some of the other incidents he discussed, when in fact he did not. But the explosion itself was indeed very real. Industry apologists have used Daisey's lie over the relatively minor detail of the alleged personal interviews to try to deflect attention away from the more salient fact of injury and death at those factories.

Nonetheless, the attention Daisey, the NYT, and others brought to this has already paid off: Apple and Foxconn recently agreed to revamp working conditions in those factories.

As the current leader in such negotiations, Apple could come out looking good in all this. But oddly, their fans keep trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug going on about Daisey.

KiwiNZ
April 16th, 2012, 05:49 AM
Yes, the focus on Apple is undue.

+1

Most of it is a result of a lack of Corporate, IT and life understanding.

KiwiNZ
April 16th, 2012, 05:52 AM
Thanks. Splitting hairs perhaps, but how could one stripped of a degree that had never been received?

This may seem a small detail, but as such it makes an interesting parallel to Daisey's transgression:

The lie Daisey made was claiming to have personally interviewed victims of the Chengdu explosion and some of the other incidents he discussed, when in fact he did not. But the explosion itself was indeed very real. Industry apologists have used Daisey's lie over the relatively minor detail of the alleged personal interviews to try to deflect attention away from the more salient fact of injury and death at those factories.

Nonetheless, the attention Daisey, the NYT, and others brought to this has already paid off: Apple and Foxconn recently agreed to revamp working conditions in those factories.

As the current leader in such negotiations, Apple could come out looking good in all this. But oddly, their fans keep trying to sweep the whole thing under the rug going on about Daisey.

Of course no other Factory, warehouse, laboratory, shop, school, garden shed has had an explosion, fire or milk spillage. :rolleyes:

rima
April 16th, 2012, 10:47 AM
+1

Most of it is a result of a lack of Corporate, IT and life understanding.

Seconded!

Exactly. Even my school uses Foxconn computers with Windows on them. It's not just about Apple, you know

dpny
April 17th, 2012, 02:05 AM
I think there's also an important distinction to be made between having preferences for one OS or another and hating something. The former is something we all do, and everyone decides for themselves what they need and like. If software freedom is important, then you will choose Linux. If tightly integrated software/hardware is important, then you will like Apple's offerings, and so on.

Hating an OS, or a computer, or a device, isn't about rational choices but is something else entirely, and having a rational discussion about the pros and cons of an OS won't get anywhere. It's also something which isn't limited to OS choice: I see it with Mets/Yankees fans, car owners, bike owners, etc. It just seems to be part of human nature.

wolfen69
April 17th, 2012, 03:48 AM
Hate is a strong word. I reserve that for things other than OS's. I think that term is thrown around too loosely.

I dislike some of apple's business practices, and don't care too much for their operating systems, but no, I don't hate them. I'm just happy we have choices.

wolfen69
April 17th, 2012, 03:56 AM
If software freedom is important, then you will choose Linux. If tightly integrated software/hardware is important, then you will like Apple's offerings, and so on.

Not necessarily true for some people. For some of us that are very good with computers, and can make knowledgeable decisions, the software/hardware combination, using linux is perfect. But I realize you were making a blanket statement. (which in my opinion should be avoided) There are millions of linux users out there who know how to match software/hardware and have a great experience.

But yeah, someone like my mom benefits from apple I guess. And I don't have to fix it like I would if she used windows. ;)

dpny
April 17th, 2012, 04:18 AM
Not necessarily true for some people. For some of us that are very good with computers, and can make knowledgeable decisions, the software/hardware combination, using linux is perfect. But I realize you were making a blanket statement. (which in my opinion should be avoided).

True. There are other reasons to use Linux: I chose one which had already been mentioned in the thread.

madverb
April 17th, 2012, 04:30 AM
This whole "hate" phenomenon is crazy. I don't hate Apple, I don't hate Android, I don't hate Windows, I don't hate Linux.

I use Windows when appropriate, I use Linux when appropriate, I use IOS and OSX when appropriate.

I buy Apple hardware because after considerable evaluation and real life experience both in the consumer and enterprise markets their products are by far the best.

You buy Apple hardware because their products are the best... How? How is spending excessive amounts of money to purchase the same hardware as released by other companies at a lower cost? I've seen hardware much more powerful than the equivalent Apple product that is just as good build quality but cheaper.
Your comment just doesn't make sense. It is far from objective to just state their products are by far the best.

An example would be the Samsung Galaxy S II versus the Apple iPhone 4S. The Galaxy S II was released almost 8 months prior to the 4S, yet it beats the 4S in hardware everywhere except the resolution (you're also comparing OLED to TFT). It is cheaper and more powerful. It is better built and by better built I mean that it is less likely to break than a 4S.
Have you seen drop test videos for these phones? The Galaxy S II takes less damage from being dropped.

So... again, how are Apple products by far the best?

KiwiNZ
April 17th, 2012, 04:35 AM
As I said previously I don't hate OS's etc, however I do have frustration levels. These are ranked something like this.Lower number being better.

OSX Snow Leopard.......2
OSX Lion.....................3
Windows Vista..............9
Windows 7...................4
ubuntu 9.10.................3
ubuntu 10.10...............5
ubuntu 11.04...............6
ubuntu 11.10...............4

IOS.............................4
Windows server............456
ubuntu server...............3
Redhat server...............4

Open Office..................7
Libre Office...................7
iWorks.........................10
MS Office (current)........3

KiwiNZ
April 17th, 2012, 04:36 AM
You buy Apple hardware because their products are the best... How? How is spending excessive amounts of money to purchase the same hardware as released by other companies at a lower cost? I've seen hardware much more powerful than the equivalent Apple product that is just as good build quality but cheaper.
Your comment just doesn't make sense. It is far from objective to just state their products are by far the best.

An example would be the Samsung Galaxy S II versus the Apple iPhone 4S. The Galaxy S II was released almost 8 months prior to the 4S, yet it beats the 4S in hardware everywhere except the resolution (you're also comparing OLED to TFT). It is cheaper and more powerful. It is better built and by better built I mean that it is less likely to break than a 4S.
Have you seen drop test videos for these phones? The Galaxy S II takes less damage from being dropped.

So... again, how are Apple products by far the best?

Personal preference........it's a good thing ;)

madverb
April 17th, 2012, 04:49 AM
Personal preference........it's a good thing ;)

But how have you found them to be the best? It doesn't make any sense to make that claim as shown in my example.

KiwiNZ
April 17th, 2012, 05:14 AM
But how have you found them to be the best? It doesn't make any sense to make that claim as shown in my example.

It may not make sense to you but it makes sense to me

madverb
April 17th, 2012, 05:33 AM
Basically you haven't found them to be the best, you just have a personal preference for them.

KiwiNZ
April 17th, 2012, 05:37 AM
Basically you haven't found them to be the best, you just have a personal preference for them.

You are making false assumptions. I wrote in a previous post ... "I buy Apple hardware because after considerable evaluation and real life experience both in the consumer and enterprise markets their products are by far the best."

wolfen69
April 17th, 2012, 06:05 AM
Yes, the focus on Apple is undue.

But only geeks that participate in these discussions care, most of the world does not. I'm starting to realize this. No one in my family. and no one I know goes onto a forum and debates OS's.

Not saying it's not a valid discussion, but not many other people do it. Most other people just get on with their lives.

aysiu
April 17th, 2012, 06:06 AM
For me, the appeal of Apple hardware isn't how powerful (in terms of GHz or GBs) it is, and I know the internal hardware is generic (in fact, when I upgrade Macbook Pro RAM, I always buy RAM from NewEgg and never from the Apple Store).

It's more the external stuff I like--the trackpad is large and the responsiveness and versatility of the multitouch is better than anything I've seen with Windows or Linux on a laptop. The unibody casing is sleek, with the power button easy to press but still flush with the chassis. The power cord is magnetic, which is perfect for a clutz like me, who is constantly tripping over and breaking non-Macbook power cords. The wake from sleep is instant. Once I open the lid, it is awake immediately, and the wireless connection is restored within one second. (I assure you--this does not happen with Windows or Linux in my experience.) The battery life is almost 10 hours, and my Macbook Pro still runs cool to the touch after many hours of use.

For me, that's enough. I don't really care that much about processors and graphics cards. I'm not a gamer. I don't do intensive graphics or animation work.

That said, I don't love all Apple products, and I don't think they're all better than their non-Apple counterparts. If someone asks me what kind of laptop to get (and anyone asking me this will not be a hardcore Linux user who builds her own gaming desktops), I will always answer Macbook Pro without any hesitation. If someone asks me what smartphone to get, that's a different story. There are great things about iPhones and iOS in general, but I'll never give up Android for an iPhone unless Google goes bankrupt.

I'm also not that impressed with the Mac Mini, Macbook Air, Apple TV, or iMac. I much prefer my Sansa Clip to the iPod Shuffle. Ultimately, people just need to use whatever works best for them and not judge others.

SemiExpert
April 17th, 2012, 04:27 PM
You buy Apple hardware because their products are the best... How? How is spending excessive amounts of money to purchase the same hardware as released by other companies at a lower cost? I've seen hardware much more powerful than the equivalent Apple product that is just as good build quality but cheaper.
Your comment just doesn't make sense. It is far from objective to just state their products are by far the best.

An example would be the Samsung Galaxy S II versus the Apple iPhone 4S. The Galaxy S II was released almost 8 months prior to the 4S, yet it beats the 4S in hardware everywhere except the resolution (you're also comparing OLED to TFT). It is cheaper and more powerful. It is better built and by better built I mean that it is less likely to break than a 4S.
Have you seen drop test videos for these phones? The Galaxy S II takes less damage from being dropped.

So... again, how are Apple products by far the best?

Apple leads in hardware integration, not in terms of hardware specifications or overall price. Samsung is a hardware supplier that's trying to become a comsumer brand. Apple has a very simple product line and clear marketing message, while Samsung is trying to enter and compete in every single market segment and price point, all at once, without any apparently strategy. Apple products seem to be consistant from the standpoint of design and quality and Apple has a good reputation for support, namely through Apple Stores. Samsung's products vary from outstanding to highly dubious and support is something of a question mark? Overall, I really don't see any comparison. Samsung is just a big South Korean chaebol, and if it hadn't been for the big 90s Asian Economic crisis, every South Korean chaebol would be making electronics. Honestly, if someone likes a Samsung product and understands the risks and rewards, fine and dandy. Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Samsung.

BrokenKingpin
April 17th, 2012, 04:46 PM
A lot of people use Linux because of the freedom it provided, and Apple is all about restricting their users and locking down their software and hardware. So of course there is going to be dislike for Apple on Linux forums.

I am actually shocked at the number of people who buy Apple products here. Sure, I get that people may just use Linux people it is a damn good OS (kernel, whatever)... but I would also think that it is the philosophy that goes along with it (free, open source, no restrictions, etc). So buying a locked down Apple product really contradicts that, regardless of how nice it is. I am not saying you have to be Richard Stallman hardcore about it, but if you believe in these principled, there are decent alternatives to Apple products that are not so restrictive.

With how locked down some of these mobile devices are (even Android devices) it is scary to think were we will be in 5-10 years. I like full control over my hardware and software, and buying an Apple product is the complete opposite of that (and I generally think their MacOS is **** lol).

SemiExpert
April 17th, 2012, 05:54 PM
A lot of people use Linux because of the freedom it provided, and Apple is all about restricting their users and locking down their software and hardware. So of course there is going to be dislike for Apple on Linux forums.

I am actually shocked at the number of people who buy Apple products here. Sure, I get that people may just use Linux people it is a damn good OS (kernel, whatever)... but I would also think that it is the philosophy that goes along with it (free, open source, no restrictions, etc). So buying a locked down Apple product really contradicts that, regardless of how nice it is. I am not saying you have to be Richard Stallman hardcore about it, but if you believe in these principled, there are decent alternatives to Apple products that are not so restrictive.

With how locked down some of these mobile devices are (even Android devices) it is scary to think were we will be in 5-10 years. I like full control over my hardware and software, and buying an Apple product is the complete opposite of that (and I generally think their MacOS is **** lol).

I'm not an Apple user for a number of reasons, none of which have to do with Apple's so-called Walled Garden approach to iOS, or the fact that OS X licensing is tied to Mac hardware. If Apple's Boot Camp supported Linux, I probably wouldn't have purchased a single Windows PC in the last 5 years - and I probably would have saved money and time by shifting to Macs. If Apple's iOS devices supported UMS USB file transfers, I probably would have purchased the entire range of i-prefixed devices. As it is, Apple's products make sense as part of the Apple ecosystem, not so much as standalone devices. It really says alot about the desirability of iPhones, iPods and iPads that such a high percentage of buyers are willing to suffer through the indignities of iTunes on Windows just to own them.

NadirPoint
April 17th, 2012, 06:18 PM
I've seen hardware much more powerful than the equivalent Apple product that is just as good build quality but cheaper.
I'm willing to bet you've never had an iPhone. I'm a die hard skeptic and refused to believe the hype for a long time. After seeing the reviews and ratings leading up to my purchase decision, I stood in the AT&T store with an iPhone in one hand and a Samsung in the other, turned them on, looked at them and said to myself, " yeah, the people who have actually used these things are right - it IS obviously superior.

rg4w
April 17th, 2012, 09:29 PM
Apple leads in hardware integration, not in terms of hardware specifications or overall price.
On that they're pretty much alone; I can't think of any other company that makes their own OS and their own computers.


Samsung is a hardware supplier that's trying to become a comsumer brand. Apple has a very simple product line and clear marketing message, while Samsung is trying to enter and compete in every single market segment and price point, all at once, without any apparently strategy.If this is what "without any strategy" produces we should all be so aimless:

Samsung Galaxy S Sales Hit 30 Million
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2394782,00.asp

dodle
April 17th, 2012, 10:26 PM
dollar + exploitation = generally bad (IMO).
+1


Anyone posting on this forum right now, and anyone who uses a smartphone, is using a device built by Foxconn...
+1


It's also something which isn't limited to OS choice: I see it with Mets/Yankees fans, car owners, bike owners, etc. It just seems to be part of human nature.

Well said.

Here is what I like about Apple, Microsoft, Haiku, Linux, BSD, ReactOS, etc: Because of all these software we have choices.

Unfortunately there is a war going on in which some of these players are trying to demolish or minimize the others. Each wants to see his/her product succeed, but if another fails, well, "that's just how the market works". I'm not saying that markets are bad, they do help weed out poor products. But markets can be manipulated. And when it comes to big success in a market it is usually money and advertising that prevail.

A problem that I have with companies who manufacture all-in-one and laptop computers is that they don't like to use open standards. This makes repair more costly and difficult (IMO it's a way to force the purchaser pay more out to the manufacturer) and makes upgrading limited.

Probably the biggest issue that I have with Microsoft and Apple is that they leave the poor in the dust. Not everyone can afford new computers, let alone one every five years. For people who haven't been able to upgrade from XP to Vista or 7 the newest Internet Explorer is not available. For people who spent their savings on a new PowerPC Imac G5... well, about the only thing you can do is scrap OS X and install a PowerPC supported version of Linux. And they still condemn (especially Microsoft) Linux and the GPL. Don't get me wrong, the GPL isn't my champion of freedom. It has its restrictive aspects as well.

On the subject of freedom: Freedom has many different definitions. For one, freedom is being able to say whatever one wants. For another, freedom is being able to go to a public park without having to listen to vile language. But I'm getting off the subject :).

I've got more to say but I'm going to stop because a percentage of readers will see the length of this post and skip it if it gets too long (I do that sometimes, I like simplicity).

NadirPoint
April 17th, 2012, 10:45 PM
"The Market" whether it's for electronic devices or laundry detergent is not exactly a zero sum game, but pretty close. There are only x number of consumers willing to spend y number of dollars at any given moment. Every sale that Apple makes is one lost to Microsoft or Samsung, and vice verse.

Microsoft has a proven track record of using financial clout to manipulate that market. Apple epitomizes the tactic of vendor lock-in to protect it's share. There are probably back room deals going on between some smaller players and big players to determine the price of a sellout right now. Market tides will always shift. By how much and by what means? Who is playing fair and who is not?

At the end of the day, the consumer ultimately decides. IIRC, Apple's market cap briefly eclipsed Exxon-Mobile becoming the most valuable company on the planet for some period last year...

KiwiNZ
April 17th, 2012, 10:55 PM
Apple's market cap briefly eclipsed Exxon-Mobile becoming the most valuable company on the planet for some period last year...


Not briefly, still

Apple market worth = $ 568,465,989,000
exxon....................= $ 401,825,377,900

NadirPoint
April 17th, 2012, 11:02 PM
Have they actually stayed on top this whole time? I haven't been following that story at all since I first heard of it.

iponeverything
April 17th, 2012, 11:13 PM
Why do some people hate Apple that much?
Is there a big difference between Apple and Microsoft?

more flamebate. The only thing I is see is treads like this..

Pithikos
April 18th, 2012, 12:23 PM
more flamebate. The only thing I is see is treads like this..

I don't see any flamebate. Just some arguments going around. I myself don't like Apple because of it's locking and the too much hype. However maybe there are other things I never thought of when it comes to Apple..

aysiu
April 18th, 2012, 10:15 PM
Intelligent discussion:
Why do some people here hate Apple? Flamebait:
You stupid Linux losers. Your operating system sucks. Why don't you use a real operating system like Mac OS X?

TeoBigusGeekus
April 19th, 2012, 01:04 AM
It's very easy to be/become Apple.
Take an OS, Ubuntu for example, and test it thoroughly only on a specific hardware specification. Then paint this hardware white, overprice it by 300% and sell it.
Lock everything the user could do with the OS (apart from changing the wallpaper maybe); heavily censor the apps one could install on the system.
Voila! Everything will work; it will be uncrushable, steady and do what you have told the user it can do.

Just give me a couple of million euros and I'll create an Apple of my own...

tmaranets
April 19th, 2012, 01:17 AM
Why do some people hate Apple that much?
-Be more specific, Linux people. Cause we hate high prices.

Is there a big difference between Apple and Microsoft?
-Yes, there is.Is there a difference between Steve Jobs and Bill Gates?(sarcastically)

aysiu
April 19th, 2012, 01:17 AM
It's very easy to be/become Apple.
Take an OS, Ubuntu for example, and test it thoroughly only on a specific hardware specification. Then paint this hardware white, overprice it by 300% and sell it.
Lock everything the user could do with the OS (apart from changing the wallpaper maybe); heavily censor the apps one could install on the system.
Voila! Everything will work; it will be uncrushable, steady and do what you have told the user it can do.

Just give me a couple of million euros and I'll create an Apple of my own...
Except that it won't wake up from sleep and connect to wireless instantly, and there's no MagSafe power cord, and the responsiveness and sophistication of multitouch on the trackpad won't be there, and you can't watch Netflix streaming... etc.

Nice try, though.

TeoBigusGeekus
April 19th, 2012, 01:25 AM
Except that it won't wake up from sleep and connect to wireless instantly, and there's no MagSafe power cord, and the responsiveness and sophistication of multitouch on the trackpad won't be there, and you can't watch Netflix streaming... etc.

Nice try, though.

Ok, I'll give you that, but once I concentrate on a specific hardware, I'll very quickly get these problems fixed.
As for Netflix, once I have enough money, I'll bribe them to support my system and screw all the others...

gardnan
April 19th, 2012, 04:01 AM
Except that it won't wake up from sleep and connect to wireless instantly, and there's no MagSafe power cord, and the responsiveness and sophistication of multitouch on the trackpad won't be there, and you can't watch Netflix streaming... etc.

Nice try, though.

I am not sure why you couldn't build a computer that could wake and connect to wireless automatically, or have a multitouch trackpad, or support Netflix streaming. The MagSafe thing is probably protected under some silly patent though, so there's that.

KiwiNZ
April 19th, 2012, 04:12 AM
Over the years I have used many Laptops and buy far and I mean very very far, the Apple Trackpad is the most superior.

aysiu
April 19th, 2012, 08:23 AM
I am not sure why you couldn't build a computer that could wake and connect to wireless automatically Well, I don't know why it's so difficult, but apparently it is. See my previous post on this, including the attached image (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11850289#post11850289).
or have a multitouch trackpad, If a laptop supports multitouch, it happens in Windows and Ubuntu as well, just not as comprehensively, responsively, or as smoothly, though, as it happens in Mac OS X on a Macbook Pro.
or support Netflix streaming. There's no native desktop Linux Netflix streaming. This is because Netflix streaming requires certain DRM present only in Silverlight and not Moonlight. There is no Silverlight for Linux.
The MagSafe thing is probably protected under some silly patent though, so there's that. Either way, it's very important to me, as I mentioned before--I'm a clutz and have actually broken other cords by tripping on them.

goldshirt9
April 19th, 2012, 09:23 AM
people love to hate successful companies

rg4w
April 19th, 2012, 04:23 PM
Over the years I have used many Laptops and buy far and I mean very very far, the Apple Trackpad is the most superior.
Agreed 100%.

I used to think this was a matter of fine-tuning the settings, since I've found that most default Windows settings are junk but can be made to feel more fluid once I tweak them.

But with Linux thus far it seems that the tracking is never quite as good as on my Mac, no matter how much I tweak it.

Is this truly an OS issue, or does Apple hold a patent on making trackpads that work like they're supposed to?

aysiu
April 19th, 2012, 07:13 PM
But with Linux thus far it seems that the tracking is never quite as good as on my Mac, no matter how much I tweak it. A great way to see the difference is just booting up Linux on a Mac and then using the trackpad. It's unwieldy and oversensitive / not sensitive enough, depending on what you're doing.

dpny
April 19th, 2012, 07:23 PM
Is this truly an OS issue, or does Apple hold a patent on making trackpads that work like they're supposed to?

It's an integration issue: a select set of hardware, a bespoke OS and the ability to pay people to do nothing but make sure the trackpad works.

lancest
April 19th, 2012, 08:23 PM
Mighty Mouse is junk IMHO.
Got one that hardly works and cord falling apart.

rg4w
April 19th, 2012, 08:25 PM
It's an integration issue: a select set of hardware, a bespoke OS and the ability to pay people to do nothing but make sure the trackpad works.
Should we put together a Kickstarter fund for a trackpad driver that's ultra-smooth?

I'm in for $50 at least.

KiwiNZ
April 19th, 2012, 08:28 PM
Mighty Mouse is junk IMHO.
Got one that hardly works and cord falling apart.

+1

The magic mouse is better but not great

jwbrase
April 19th, 2012, 08:59 PM
Over the years I have used many Laptops and buy far and I mean very very far, the Apple Trackpad is the most superior.

But is it on par with an actual mouse? If not, it just wastes *more* space and money than a normal trackpad without providing any extra benefit. I'm still going to be carrying a real mouse with me, even in the most portability-critical situations, and thus that super-nice trackpad is going to go completely unused.

My ideal laptop would forgo the trackpad entirely in favor of an extra USB port or two.

dpny
April 19th, 2012, 09:08 PM
Should we put together a Kickstarter fund for a trackpad driver that's ultra-smooth?

I'm in for $50 at least.

You don't quite grok it: Apple can do what they do because they control the entire widget, from hardware to software to design to engineering. It's not just a solution you throw money at to solve, or else MS would've figured it out. It's a result which comes from being able to focus on one piece of software, which is specifically tailored to one piece of hardware, which is designed with a set of specific goals in mind. It's the result of an entire end-to-end design and engineering process.

It's also something which is antithetical to F/OSS. You can't exercise that kind of control when you have no control over what hardware/software the device will be used on. LInux can be installed on a bewildering variety of hardware, with a bewildering array of software. You can't even know which desktop environment the end user will be running. F/OSS is amazing for some projects. Duplicating what Apple does with OS X isn't one of them.

KiwiNZ
April 19th, 2012, 10:01 PM
But is it on par with an actual mouse? If not, it just wastes *more* space and money than a normal trackpad without providing any extra benefit. I'm still going to be carrying a real mouse with me, even in the most portability-critical situations, and thus that super-nice trackpad is going to go completely unused.

My ideal laptop would forgo the trackpad entirely in favor of an extra USB port or two.

On a laptop the Apple track pad is by far better, the gestures or awesome and the glass surface is fantastic.

dzponce11
April 20th, 2012, 02:44 AM
Check in any dictionary:
Yale Collegiate
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst manufacturer of computer on the planet Earth.

Merriam-Webster
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst developer of computer software on the planet Earth.

Dictionary.com
Apple [ap-uhl] n. [too awful to describe]

aysiu
April 20th, 2012, 03:23 AM
Check in any dictionary:
Yale Collegiate
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst manufacturer of computer on the planet Earth.

Merriam-Webster
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst developer of computer software on the planet Earth.

Dictionary.com
Apple [ap-uhl] n. [too awful to describe]
On what are you basing this bit of (what I assume to be) humor?

KiwiNZ
April 20th, 2012, 03:27 AM
Check in any dictionary:
Yale Collegiate
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst manufacturer of computer on the planet Earth.

Merriam-Webster
Apple [ap-uhl] n. The worst developer of computer software on the planet Earth.

Dictionary.com
Apple [ap-uhl] n. [too awful to describe]

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Copper Bezel
April 20th, 2012, 04:41 AM
Y'know, particularly in light of the old article that Linuxratty posted here yesterday, it's really hard to try to play the Apple-hater persona well. If Apple products are worthy of scorn because they're pretentious status symbols, then how much is being pretentious about not buying Apple products worth?

SemiExpert
April 20th, 2012, 04:26 PM
On a laptop the Apple track pad is by far better, the gestures or awesome and the glass surface is fantastic.

It really depends on the Windows PC notebook. Some have terrible touchpad hardware, others have terrible proprietary touchpad drivers and work better as a generic PS/2. The real problem is the lack of uniformity, even within the same brand, since every Windows OEM seems to have a huge number of different models. Apple's simple product line and massive R&D really payoff.

Copper Bezel
April 20th, 2012, 05:26 PM
The real problem is the lack of uniformity, even within the same brand, since every Windows OEM seems to have a huge number of different models.
That's the thing - you're actually stuck comparing brands, or really specific models, of trackpads, not OEMs. My netbook's "Synaptics" trackpad is actually an Elantech, and it's absurdly butter-smooth in operation, but three-finger tap has been broken since the 3.0 kernel hit (supposedly fixed in 12.04.) Actual Synaptics trackpads I've played with were fully supported, but fussy. So the OEM doesn't matter much, but any one trackpad can show up anywhere, and the quality of the trackpad isn't related to the level of support it has, so a lot of things have to line up to really get a decent trackpad in Linux.

Then again, I have a friend on Windows who has a Synaptics trackpad, but never bothered to install the driver, so it's treated as PS/2. I don't know why anyone would settle for that, but I guess it's just not a priority for a lot of users.

Sector11
April 21st, 2012, 03:28 PM
That and the fact they want as much info about you as they can (legally and illegally) get their hands on.

Not just a MAC:


The Death of Privacy: Hidden software called Carrier IQ installed in most smartphones that logs the details of usersí activities. Carrier IQ software logs every text message, every Google search and every phone number typed on a wide variety of smartphones including HTC, Blackberry, Nokia (Nokia says not) and others, and reports them to the mobile phone carrier. This application, labeled on many smartphones as ďHTC IQ AgentĒ also logs the URL of all websites searched from that phone, even if the user intends to encrypt that data using a URL that begins with HTTPS. This software always runs when Android operating system is running and users are unable to stop it. This phenomenon is unstoppable. It is grounded in the policies and guidelines of Homeland Security and other police and intelligence agencies. It is one more legacy of 9/11. Such systems may have been inevitable even without that. We may still live in the Home of the Brave, but if you want to live in the Land of the Free, you may have to move somewhere else. But can you escape Carrier IQ or something like it? Probably not. World citizen, you are being monitored.

Source: http://www.marketwitch.com/preview2012.html

MisterGaribaldi
April 21st, 2012, 04:44 PM
Man, I'm a bit late to this party. So, sorry, but dis gonna be a looooooooong response post!


Why do some people hate Apple that much?
Is there a big difference between Apple and Microsoft?

In terms of style? You bet! In terms of actually caring about what they do and what they put out? Absolutely. In terms of trying to maximize their profitability? Not really, except in terms of the details of their business models.



An Ipad Im sure could have many laudable uses - I've only ever seen one in the wild!

Then, quite obviously, you've never bothered to look. I could say the exact same thing about motorcycles or earth moving equipment. I'll never have a use for them, ergo they must be useless! Oh, and it's an "iPad" and not an "Ipad", btw.



The answer is simple..... Tall poppy syndrome.

D*mn straight!


Why should it cost Apple for your carelessness. If you crashed your Car should GM, Ford, Toyota etc pick up the tab?

I felt the same way reading his post, Kiwi. Sounds like a case of either entitlement or ignorance.



A convenient phrase for dismissing all other comments without actually addressing the particular merits of any of them. Funny, but for all your Apple evangelism I think I missed the post where you had something positive to say about Linux.

In surfing around here on UF, I've yet to see KiwiNZ actually disparage Linux, tyvm. I've disparaged it numerous times, and IIRC Kiwi has actually come to its defense. But, since you want to talk about the merits, how about this: Liberty and freedom are absolutely critical factors, not just in OSs, but also in real life (read: politics) and, in addition to that, a tool is really only useful if you can get some benefit out of it. Linux is useful for me, but only on the server, phone, and imbedded applications (routers, for instance) because the F/OSS dev and user community cannot, for whatever reasons, get their stuff together and encourage a centralized focus on certain key core technologies (user interfaces, multimedia frameworks, compelling alternatives to certain commercial software, attracting more commercial developers to the platform, etc.) For me, right now, at best Linux on the desktop is little more than a hobbyist pursuit. Professionally, to me, it's useless.



This thread is not about the pros and cons of Linux

My answer to the question why hate on Apple being Tall poppy syndrome is valid. The meaning of the term is "describe a social phenomenon in which people or entities of genuine merit are resented, attacked, cut down, or criticised because their talents or achievements elevate them above or distinguish them from their peers."

Given that this is my take on the 'hate on Apple' phenomenon it is valid and my right to post same is valid.

What you said.



i'm not saying that they should pay for anything i'm happy to pay(-ish). but the idea of paying an extra £105 for them to sort it out seems insane.

Oh, I see... and you know of another OEM that doesn't do PRECISELY the same thing? Try getting a replacement mobo or LCD panel from HP, or Dell, or Sony, etc. They will charge you as much (or more) for the parts and/or service as they would for a whole new unit. However, you're right: there are parts suppliers out there if you desire to make use of them, and in fact there is an entire industry built up around doing hardware (and some firmware) service work on iPhones, BlackBerrys, Android phones, etc.



The fact that I have been using Linux since the early 90's and have been a member of ubuntu Forums since day one and an Administrator or Moderator for 99% of my time here would indicate I have a lot of support for Linux and or ubuntu.

I guess rg4w must have overlooked that little-known fact. ;-)



As mentioned the extreme vendor lock-in strategy of Apple is the most concerning aspect to me.

Vendor lock-in on any platform is always an annoyance, so in the general sense I might be inclined to agree. However...


Any software and hardware specific to Apple is only of use on a very limited range of devices. If you buy an app for your mac or iPhone, you will only be able to use it on overpriced Mac hardware. All the Mac specific adaptors similarly will be useless as soon as you want to use another device.

And if I buy or D/L a win32/win64 app, it's only useful on a Windows machine. Or, if I get an adapter to connect certain kinds of external devices to HP laptops (for instance), it's only useful on an HP laptop. Or, if I... you get the idea. It's really false logic, sorry.


Another aspect is their obsession with control. On mobile platforms you can only get software from their app store and therefore they have full control over what kind of software you are allowed to install. Want to install flash? Forget it, Apple does not want you to install it. This is kind of the opposite of software freedom, I would rather say it's software slavery.

Apple has absolutely had bad practices vis ŗ vis iOS 3rd party app approval and distribution. Then again, you've picked a poor example with Flash. Everyone here on UF seems to hate Flash (except, of course, when Apple does anything about it because we all "know" that Apple is evil) and besides that, Adobe is terminating development of Flash for basically anything other than Windows, Mac OS X, and Google Chrome-using plug-in systems.


This also applies to their hardware. Good luck trying to get an .flac song on an iPod in Linux e.g. You can't officially because Apple only wants you to use their iTunes to use with Ipods, which is not available under Linux and does not support .flac in the first place. It seems rather barely tolerating import of .mp3 but converts everything into Apple formats as best it can.

It's not just FLAC, but also OGG and, to an extent, WMA/WMV (though arguably for significantly different reasons). Playability on an iPod/iPhone is Apple's issue because they do totally control that ecosystem; however, playability in Mac OS X is the fault of the F/OSS community for not bothering to do much development work to support those formats on Mac OS X.


A general attitude of Apple that their users are too dumb for everything so they have to remove as many options and capabilities of their devices as possible (which is one of their excuses for their control obsession).

Apple does not, such that I can discern it, think that their users are dumb, nor are they trying to cater to the L.C.D. But, what they do do is to try and keep things clean and intuitive, which is a "flaw" one can rarely accuse either Microsoft or the F/OSS dev community of.



people love to hate successful companies

This is the same mentality which largely gave rise to the Occupy movement. The whole thing was and is pathetic.



You don't quite grok it: Apple can do what they do because they control the entire widget, from hardware to software to design to engineering. It's not just a solution you throw money at to solve, or else MS would've figured it out. It's a result which comes from being able to focus on one piece of software, which is specifically tailored to one piece of hardware, which is designed with a set of specific goals in mind. It's the result of an entire end-to-end design and engineering process.

Ah, thank you dpny! You're absolutely right.


It's also something which is antithetical to F/OSS. You can't exercise that kind of control when you have no control over what hardware/software the device will be used on. LInux can be installed on a bewildering variety of hardware, with a bewildering array of software. You can't even know which desktop environment the end user will be running. F/OSS is amazing for some projects. Duplicating what Apple does with OS X isn't one of them.

Yep.



On a laptop the Apple track pad is by far better, the gestures or awesome and the glass surface is fantastic.

As a MBP owner myself (second one) I 100% agree with this comment.

Captain Smiley Pants
April 21st, 2012, 04:56 PM
Wow, that was a pretty long, boring, uninteresting wall of text that you decided would be a great idea to post on the Internet! Go hog wild!

MisterGaribaldi
April 21st, 2012, 05:01 PM
Wow, that was a pretty long, boring, uninteresting wall of text that you decided would be a great idea to post on the Internet! Go hog wild!

Don't blame me for your short attention span mentality or inability / lack of desire to read.

Besides, this is a community board. Too bad you feel some are evidently less entitled to participate in the discussion than others.

mamamia88
April 21st, 2012, 05:02 PM
You can have the best touchpad in the world as long as the one on the pc equivelent is usable it's not worth the extra money imo. I have a hard time justifying spending $1000 on a macbook air when 4 year old netbook running xfce is super fast. I would never even consider one of their desktops because they are just glorified laptops that you can't upgrade. Also itunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever used so why exactly would i want to buy one of their products that requires it?

gardnan
April 21st, 2012, 07:34 PM
Alright, I am beginning to sense that this thread is running the risk of turning into a flamewar (something that I may have contributed to, sorry).

I suggest that we each try and switch our side of the argument in order to become more open minded about other ideas, as illustrated here.
http://xkcd.com/106/

As I was on the Anti-Apple side, here goes:

Despite my love of Linux, I must admit that Apple really are the best at hardware-software integration. After anyone compiles their own Linux kernel, anyone can easily see the benefits of knowing exactly what hardware you are running on. Also, I must congratulate Apple for their mobile platforms. As much as I hate to admit it, the iPhone/iPad/iPod were really good ideas that would have only been possible for a company that charges what they do.

Blech. I am going to go wash my mouth (keyboard?) out with soap after saying that.

MisterGaribaldi
April 21st, 2012, 07:44 PM
gardnan:

The one thing I've learned in life is that, while humility is usually a good thing, accepting responsibility for others' bad acts isn't. You're not the one turning this into a flamewar, if it even can be argued that it is turning into one.

I don't think any of us who are expressing concerns about Linux vs. Apple, or expressing concern about any anti-Apple sentiment here are actually hating on Linux. I love Linux, and I depend upon it daily, but just not as a desktop OS.

You're right, tho... there are definitely haters here on this board, and I suspect there always have been, just like there are haters on Microsoft-related message boards, or Android-related ones, or on MacRumors, or Slashdot, or anywhere else. I don't suffer fools gladly, but this is the Internet, so where I don't find someone else's input acceptable, appropriate, or useful, I generally ignore it (other than to the extent that it becomes degrading, and then I will fire back) because most of these boards are, let's face it, filled with children (literally) and others who lack social skills.

SemiExpert
April 21st, 2012, 09:05 PM
You can have the best touchpad in the world as long as the one on the pc equivelent is usable it's not worth the extra money imo.

It all depends on the irritation factor inherent in cheap Windows PC hardware and your level of tolerance.


I have a hard time justifying spending $1000 on a macbook air when 4 year old netbook running xfce is super fast.

I can assure you that a 4 year old netbook running xfce is not super fast, as you put it, in an absolute or even a relative sense. Quicker than XP running on exactly the same hardware? Probably. But still, the Macbook Air is an undeniable accomplishment for Apple when you consider that it is still the best contender in the so-called Ultrabook segment. And the Macbook Air wasn't even a big hit for several years after it was launched. It didn't even catch on in a big way until the Macbook Air 11 appeared in 2010.


I would never even consider one of their desktops because they are just glorified laptops that you can't upgrade.

Apple still makes the Mac Mini and even the out-of-date Mac Pro. I'm not an iMac fan, since I don't agree with the all-in-one desktop concept, but it is undoubtedly the best of its kind, or at least the iMac 27 is. So far, I haven't seen a single decent all-in-one Windows PC. It's not just that the all-in-one concept is a bad one, it's that everyone except for Apple executes the bad concept very badly.


Also itunes is one of the worst pieces of software I've ever used so why exactly would i want to buy one of their products that requires it?

If that's what you think of iTunes, you should really check out Rhythmbox, which has to be the Linux contender for worst piece of software. Hey, I don't like the idea of iTunes as an interface instead of drap-and-drop and a decent file manager, but iOS devices as just so compelling! I didn't line up to buy an iPad 3, but even I have to admit it's the best tablet I've ever seen. Same goes for the current, underwhelming iPhone 4S. It doesn't impress until you look at the competition. I bet thousands of AT&T employees cried in unison when the company took away their iPhones and forced them to use the slow, crappy and relentlessly cheap feeling Nokia 900.

ridetheteapot
April 21st, 2012, 09:27 PM
Gonna do a late post on the topic cause I didn't see anyone bring it up.
Why hate?
Fan(atic)boys/media adulation.

Neither are real reasons to hate apple the company or it's products. Never the less both cause me to have a little 'negative feelings'. (but) This goes for anything though (including linux).

One actual reason that has been brought up I agree with is lock-in/walled garden direction. Do not want, plain and simple.
Also I have a family member who did the apple mp3 player, and got treated very poorly by apple customer service - having bought it through the Istore. She would have got much better support going with the same product from bestbuy or it's ilk.

On the other hand I think for the most part the price complaint is almost moot. Sure their stuff is a bit more expensive, but at least last time I looked their laptops have the most sensible hardware configurations --- like no over-the-top choices matched with inferior parts that you see in other systems; which just end up looking nice on the box, but bottle-necking at various places in reality.

I would consider buying a used apple laptop, but personally, I pay no attention to any of their other projects.

JDShu
April 21st, 2012, 10:11 PM
Linus says: (http://techcrunch.com/2012/04/19/an-interview-with-millenium-technology-prize-finalist-linus-torvalds/)



That said, Iím have to admit being a bit baffled by how nobody else seems to have done what Apple did with the Macbook Air Ė even several years after the first release, the other notebook vendors continue to push those ugly and *clunky* things. Yes, there are vendors that have tried to emulate it, but usually pretty badly. I donít think Iím unusual in preferring my laptop to be thin and light.


Btw, even when it comes to Apple, itís really just the Air that I think is special. The other apple laptops may be good-looking, but they are still the same old clunky hardware, just in a pretty dress.
Iím personally just hoping that Iím ahead of the curve in my strict requirement for ďsmall and silentĒ. Itís not just laptops, btw Ė Intel sometimes gives me pre-release hardware, and the people inside Intel I work with have learnt that being whisper-quiet is one of my primary requirements for desktops too. I am sometimes surprised at what leaf-blowers some people seem to put up with under their desks.


I want my office to be quiet. The loudest thing in the room Ė by far Ė should be the occasional purring of the cat. And when I travel, I want to travel light. A notebook that weighs more than a kilo is simply not a good thing (yeah, Iím using the smaller 11″ macbook air, and I think weight could still be improved on, but at least itís very close to the magical 1kg limit).


Honestly Linux users give too much weight to what he says, but it's an interesting opinion nonetheless.

tmaranets
April 21st, 2012, 10:17 PM
The computers are annoying to use(especially when they are slow). Siri can't understand anything. Unsatisfying computers. Costly. .....

lancest
April 21st, 2012, 10:46 PM
Do you really NEED a Macbook air?

Can you deal with it's limitations?

Is it easy to install/run Linux on it?

These are important questions for me.

Seems like Apple is pretty good at distorting needs/wants.
(anything beyond USB 3 comes to mind)

Yes, that's capitalism- but not worth the kidney.

mamamia88
April 21st, 2012, 11:48 PM
It all depends on the irritation factor inherent in cheap Windows PC hardware and your level of tolerance.



I can assure you that a 4 year old netbook running xfce is not super fast, as you put it, in an absolute or even a relative sense. Quicker than XP running on exactly the same hardware? Probably. But still, the Macbook Air is an undeniable accomplishment for Apple when you consider that it is still the best contender in the so-called Ultrabook segment. And the Macbook Air wasn't even a big hit for several years after it was launched. It didn't even catch on in a big way until the Macbook Air 11 appeared in 2010.



Apple still makes the Mac Mini and even the out-of-date Mac Pro. I'm not an iMac fan, since I don't agree with the all-in-one desktop concept, but it is undoubtedly the best of its kind, or at least the iMac 27 is. So far, I haven't seen a single decent all-in-one Windows PC. It's not just that the all-in-one concept is a bad one, it's that everyone except for Apple executes the bad concept very badly.



If that's what you think of iTunes, you should really check out Rhythmbox, which has to be the Linux contender for worst piece of software. Hey, I don't like the idea of iTunes as an interface instead of drap-and-drop and a decent file manager, but iOS devices as just so compelling! I didn't line up to buy an iPad 3, but even I have to admit it's the best tablet I've ever seen. Same goes for the current, underwhelming iPhone 4S. It doesn't impress until you look at the competition. I bet thousands of AT&T employees cried in unison when the company took away their iPhones and forced them to use the slow, crappy and relentlessly cheap feeling Nokia 900.
well it feels super fast to me. faster than a $300 computer from 4 years ago aught to feel. i basically only use chrome and a podcast client on it though. for my needs a macbook air would be a complete waste of money. if they sold it for $500 i would really consider it. I don't use rhythmbox either though since the project is dead. edit checked the bios purchase date and it was december 2009 so not quite 4 years

Copper Bezel
April 22nd, 2012, 01:18 AM
Well, yeah. I'm quite happy with my netbook, and I don't feel the need to run a bare-bones desktop on it, either, but there's no question that the Air would be a step up, and it becomes a matter of price. So what you're really talking about is how much you're willing and able to pay for the difference, which is a different thing.


Honestly Linux users give too much weight to what he says, but it's an interesting opinion nonetheless.
Yeah, I'm not really convinced that Torvalds has any more authority on the subject of hardware or UIs or anything else than any random user, so the extent to which he's taken as a voice on those subjects is a little odd to me. In this case, I just happen to agree with him. I think the 11" Air is really an ideal form factor, and I'd like to see more thin, aluminum, preferably fanless designs out there. I think he's right that that's going to become the norm, too, given a little time, although I think he's probably wrong that it's a major consideration for a lot of users. I just hope it starts to happen quickly enough that I have a couple of options available when the time comes to replace my current machine. Right now, it's just the Air and the Zenbook, both well outside of my price range.

mamamia88
April 22nd, 2012, 01:32 AM
Well, yeah. I'm quite happy with my netbook, and I don't feel the need to run a bare-bones desktop on it, either, but there's no question that the Air would be a step up, and it becomes a matter of price. So what you're really talking about is how much you're willing and able to pay for the difference, which is a different thing.


Yeah, I'm not really convinced that Torvalds has any more authority on the subject of hardware or UIs or anything else than any random user, so the extent to which he's taken as a voice on those subjects is a little odd to me. In this case, I just happen to agree with him. I think the 11" Air is really an ideal form factor, and I'd like to see more thin, aluminum, preferably fanless designs out there. I think he's right that that's going to become the norm, too, given a little time, although I think he's probably wrong that it's a major consideration for a lot of users. I just hope it starts to happen quickly enough that I have a couple of options available when the time comes to replace my current machine. Right now, it's just the Air and the Zenbook, both well outside of my price range. yeah the only reason i could think of to spend that much on a pc would be for gaming and in that case any mac would be out of the question. i don't really see any reason to spend $1000 so i can im my friends while watching tv. i guess it's just a matter of how much people are willing to spend

KiwiNZ
April 22nd, 2012, 05:38 AM
If an Apple product meets your requirements and is affordable to you then buy it. Ignore the naysayers they probably have never touched one, cannot afford one or both.

Primefalcon
April 22nd, 2012, 08:19 AM
No difference between Apple and Microsoft, only differences are apple are a more closed eco system, but with Apple.... it doesn't matter since they don't have market a monopoly, otherwise they'd be worse than ms imo

C.S.Cameron
April 22nd, 2012, 03:55 PM
One reason I hate Apple is because it is the type of company that would hire people to join Linux forms and create FUD about Linux while building up the Apple name.

gardnan
April 22nd, 2012, 04:50 PM
Well, as my previous request for trying to balance the discussion has failed, I might as well continue and reply to this:


If an Apple product meets your requirements and is affordable to you then buy it. Ignore the naysayers they probably have never touched one, cannot afford one or both.

This is the kind of thing that I don't like about Apple. The main argument here appears to be that anyone who can't afford an Apple product's opinion doesn't matter, that the only people that have any problem with Apple are just too poor and too stupid to be enlightened by the holy OS X. This is just not true. Many people that can very well afford Macs choose to purchase PCs for perfectly valid reasons. Maybe you want to build your own computer from purchased components, or you are a gamer purchasing a top of the line PC, or maybe you thought about buying a Mac, but then thought that the extra $500 was just too much for what you got.

Your whole argument could also be applied to any other expensive brand. You could say that BMW is the greatest car brand in existence, and that the moment you can afford one, you have no choice but to buy one. Anyone that says different has either never driven a BMW or is just to poor to afford one. The point is, BMW is just another luxury brand, and there really is very little that is special about them. If they suit your needs, then buy one, if they don't, then not buying one is perfectly fine.

Sorry to go back to the ranting, but in return I will say this: if you do find that the feature set of a Mac is worth it, and that it suits you well, then, by all means, buy one. Just don't act like everyone that isn't like you is a poor and jealous gimme.

PS: I am one of the people that could have bought a Mac, but didn't, because what they offered just wasn't worth it.

NadirPoint
April 22nd, 2012, 05:10 PM
One reason I hate Apple is because it is the type of company that would hire people to join Linux forms and create FUD about Linux while building up the Apple name.
FUD begets FUD?

You could say that BMW is the greatest car brand in existence, and that the moment you can afford one, you have no choice but to buy one. Anyone that says different has either never driven a BMW or is just to poor to afford one. The point is, BMW is just another luxury brand, and there really is very little that is special about them.
Uh, that would be incorrect. Apparently you've never owned a BMW. ;)

It might be useful in this discussion to ask which came first - the chicken, or the egg? When Apple sets out to design an iPhone or the iPad, or some Mac, whatever, they design it be what they wanted it to be. Period. Little if any concern for competing products, price or anything comes to bear in the early stages of development. They work with parts suppliers, manufacturers, wireless carriers, etc. to bring pricing into line as necessary - but not as a design feature.

OTOH, taking the current crop of smartphones for example, they are all designed with (primarily) one thing in mind - competing against the iPhone on price. Everything else takes a back seat to that goal. This results in the inferior products we see which simply are what they are - poor iPhone imitators.

Paqman
April 22nd, 2012, 08:04 PM
This is the kind of thing that I don't like about Apple. The main argument here appears to be that anyone who can't afford an Apple product's opinion doesn't matter, that the only people that have any problem with Apple are just too poor and too stupid to be enlightened by the holy OS X. This is just not true.

Didn't you know, iSmug is a feature of all Apple products? ;)

NadirPoint
April 22nd, 2012, 08:13 PM
Didn't you know, iSmug is a feature of all Apple products? ;)
How would he know if he never owned one? :p

http://dilbert.com/dyn/str_strip/000000000/00000000/0000000/000000/20000/3000/700/23796/23796.strip.gif

KiwiNZ
April 22nd, 2012, 08:19 PM
That was an interesting experiment. Thank folks.

Copper Bezel
April 22nd, 2012, 09:06 PM
This is the kind of thing that I don't like about Apple. The main argument here appears to be that anyone who can't afford an Apple product's opinion doesn't matter, that the only people that have any problem with Apple are just too poor and too stupid to be enlightened by the holy OS X. This is just not true. Many people that can very well afford Macs choose to purchase PCs for perfectly valid reasons. Maybe you want to build your own computer from purchased components, or you are a gamer purchasing a top of the line PC, or maybe you thought about buying a Mac, but then thought that the extra $500 was just too much for what you got.
Well, to me, the gamer would be a special case - I mean, that's a specialized application. I still think it's fair to assume that in terms of generic computer hardware, Apple's is still the best available, so it's a question of whether or not you're willing and able to spend the extra cash for it.

That doesn't mean that you're ignoring the opinions of people who haven't already made the same choice you did - or at least, it shouldn't.

The software's another thing. I don't think it's possible to have a "best" operating system in the same sense that you can have a "best" hardware option.

JDShu
April 22nd, 2012, 09:59 PM
How would he know if he never owned one? :p


You know, given the popularity of smart phones and tablets with senior citizens, the answer seems to be yes, RISC processors are appropriate for them ;)

Mikeb85
April 22nd, 2012, 10:20 PM
If an Apple product meets your requirements and is affordable to you then buy it. Ignore the naysayers they probably have never touched one, cannot afford one or both.

And some people simply appreciate good VALUE. I agree, use whatever suits your needs, but for me personally, I can get a better spec computer if I go with a brand like Lenovo or Asus for the same price, or I can build a tower.

Some of us can afford any computer, any cell phone, can afford a luxury car, yet don't choose the highest priced option because it simply doesn't make as much sense as the less expensive version.

The most frustrating user experience I've ever had was with an Apple product.

Mikeb85
April 22nd, 2012, 10:37 PM
I'm willing to bet you've never had an iPhone. I'm a die hard skeptic and refused to believe the hype for a long time. After seeing the reviews and ratings leading up to my purchase decision, I stood in the AT&T store with an iPhone in one hand and a Samsung in the other, turned them on, looked at them and said to myself, " yeah, the people who have actually used these things are right - it IS obviously superior.

You should have compared it to an HTC phone. Samsung is getting better, but still a questionable brand IMO. HTC makes the best phone hardware without a doubt (and their customizations to Android are pretty slick too)

Mikeb85
April 22nd, 2012, 10:49 PM
I buy Apple hardware because after considerable evaluation and real life experience both in the consumer and enterprise markets their products are by far the best.

I'd personally give Lenovo (ThinkPad and enterprise products) that distinction. Most corporations seem to agree, from what I've seen of user satisfaction ratings. And for phones, I personally prefer HTC, although I'd put Apple's quality above the others.

I personally can't wait for an Intel powered Lenovo phone that I can install Ubuntu's (hopefully upcoming and not a hoax) mobile operating system on.

mamamia88
April 22nd, 2012, 10:58 PM
You should have compared it to an HTC phone. Samsung is getting better, but still a questionable brand IMO. HTC makes the best phone hardware without a doubt (and their customizations to Android are pretty slick too)

True I have an htc phone and after using it for so long i tried the galaxy note in best buy and was like wtf am i doing. how in the world can android user experiences differ so much from phone to phone? Anyway I'm running stock android now because I like my android to be as close to how google intended it as possible. Thats one thing I will give apple though. If you've used one product you've used them all

KiwiNZ
April 22nd, 2012, 11:06 PM
I'd personally give Lenovo (ThinkPad and enterprise products) that distinction. Most corporations seem to agree, from what I've seen of user satisfaction ratings. And for phones, I personally prefer HTC, although I'd put Apple's quality above the others.

I personally can't wait for an Intel powered Lenovo phone that I can install Ubuntu's (hopefully upcoming and not a hoax) mobile operating system on.

I have posted countless times( I should write a script to automate it) use what ever works for YOU. If that be Lenovo( personally I think the Thinkpads are very good),ASUS or heaven forbid HP then use them. Same with OS's and Applications.

MisterGaribaldi
April 23rd, 2012, 12:40 AM
I have posted countless times( I should write a script to automate it) use what ever works for YOU. If that be Lenovo( personally I think the Thinkpads are very good),ASUS or heaven forbid HP then use them. Same with OS's and Applications.

Awww... don't feel too bad, KiwiNZ. I'm sure there's someone on UF who can code and write a nice script for you.

Hey, incidentally, what's your avatar commemorating?

Paqman
April 23rd, 2012, 12:48 AM
how in the world can android user experiences differ so much from phone to phone?

It's done deliberately, so that manufacturers can differentiate their phones from each other. Essentially it's a marketing thing.

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 12:51 AM
Awww... don't feel too bad, KiwiNZ. I'm sure there's someone on UF who can code and write a nice script for you.

Hey, incidentally, what's your avatar commemorating?

ANZAC Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_Day

MisterGaribaldi
April 23rd, 2012, 02:37 AM
ANZAC Day

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anzac_Day

Oh, that's cool. Like Memorial Day here in the U.S., then.

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 03:09 AM
Oh, that's cool. Like Memorial Day here in the U.S., then.

Yes it is.

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 06:20 PM
This is the kind of thing that I don't like about Apple.[/quote[

This has nothing to do with Apple. Apple is a company which makes products. This thread is about people's feelings about Apple, which is another matter altogether.

The main argument here appears to be that anyone who can't afford an Apple product's opinion doesn't matter, that the only people that have any problem with Apple are just too poor and too stupid to be enlightened by the holy OS X.

That's not the argument at all. In fact, I don't know how you got that from the OP statement.

It's simple: people have different needs. These needs include things like tasks to be accomplished, amount of money to be spent, user experience, etc. Apple makes machines which are useful to its users, and not useful to others. Microsoft makes products useful to some. Linux is useful to others.

There is nothing wrong with using Apple hardware/software.. There's nothing wrong with using MS software. There's nothing wrong with using LInux.

jockyburns
April 23rd, 2012, 07:14 PM
The only problems I have with Apple are,,, the almost total lack of customer service, when things do go wrong. For instance, the last malware to infect their products, (yes I know,, downloaded by the end user so it's their own fault) For over a week Apple did nothing about this, telling customers it was their own fault that they had downloaded software,(purporting to be a security program from Apple) rendering their computers useless. What a way to treat your customer base.
Love or loathe Windows, at least you know they are on the ball with security issues, whereas most Mac users tell you they NEVER, suffer from anything at all ( a sort of smugness wiped off their smiles when things do go wrong ??)

Apple Corp's disgusting use of cheap labour in China, where employees of a company that supplied only Apple, were driven to suicide, or suffered health problems. Apple's response to the situation? "Nothing to do with us matey, they're only a supplier."
Yeah right.
Apple's relationship with it's customers and suppliers certainly isn't the best in the world ,,, is it?


Thirdly, the actual price of their products (and yes I have owned Apple products many years ago)
Their products (and what's actually inside them) should cost around the same as any other PC, phone, tablet.. Yet they are (in my estimation) vastly overpriced. Remembering that many of their suppliers also supply most computer manufacturers with almost the same chips, circuit boards and components. Do you really think a supplier chooses to charge more for a capacitor/diode/resistor/etc, just because the order has come from Apple? Nah I didn't think so either.

Fourth,, Their stupid ongoing arguments about intellectual property. Stupid things like "We invented the oblong with rounded corners." "We devised a certain finger movement for our tablets." Wowee Didn't see that coming. I think I'll register intellectual property on a certain two fingered movement for a forthcoming computer product. (you use it when it goes wrong) :D :D :D

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 07:40 PM
The only problems I have with Apple are,,, the almost total lack of customer service, when things do go wrong. For instance, the last malware to infect their products, (yes I know,, downloaded by the end user so it's their own fault) For over a week Apple did nothing about this, telling customers it was their own fault that they had downloaded software,(purporting to be a security program from Apple) rendering their computers useless. What a way to treat your customer base.

You have almost all the facts wrong. The infection, in this case, was because of an unpatched Java vulnerability which disguised itself as an update for Flash. It first spread through unpatched Wordpress sites. Apple never told customers it was their fault: they patched Java three times within a week, and offered a tool to remove the infection. The malware didn't render machines useless: it did standard malware stuff.

You can fault Apple for not patching Java earlier, though.


Apple Corp's disgusting use of cheap labour in China, where employees of a company that supplied only Apple, were driven to suicide, or suffered health problems. Apple's response to the situation? "Nothing to do with us matey, they're only a supplier."

Almost any computer or smartphone you use is built by Foxconn or one of their competitors. Do you own an Android phone, or a Dell, or an HP, or a Lenovo? Then your hardware was built by the same workers. Even if you built your own machine, where do you think the components came from?

Apple has responded to the issues: http://www.speedmatters.org/blog/archive/apples-response-to-foxconn-outcry-is-swift-but-flawed/#.T5Whbe3wPMM

You can argue the merits of their response, but saying they haven't done anything is completely wrong.


Their products (and what's actually inside them) should cost around the same as any other PC, phone, tablet.. .

Why? Does your argument extend to all products? Should all TVs cost the same? All cars? All clothing?

I see this argument a lot on tech boards, and it represents, I think, a pedantic world view which is entirely unaware of how businesses work. Apple isn't in the commodity PC business, as can be seen by its profits when compared to Dell or HP, which are just hanging on. Apple sells vertically integrated hardware/software solutions. It's not for everybody, but it's a completely different market than the POS Dell box you get a Best Buy.

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 08:00 PM
The only problems I have with Apple are,,, the almost total lack of customer service, when things do go wrong. For instance, the last malware to infect their products, (yes I know,, downloaded by the end user so it's their own fault) For over a week Apple did nothing about this, telling customers it was their own fault that they had downloaded software,(purporting to be a security program from Apple) rendering their computers useless. What a way to treat your customer base.
Love or loathe Windows, at least you know they are on the ball with security issues, whereas most Mac users tell you they NEVER, suffer from anything at all ( a sort of smugness wiped off their smiles when things do go wrong ??)

Apple Corp's disgusting use of cheap labour in China, where employees of a company that supplied only Apple, were driven to suicide, or suffered health problems. Apple's response to the situation? "Nothing to do with us matey, they're only a supplier."
Yeah right.
Apple's relationship with it's customers and suppliers certainly isn't the best in the world ,,, is it?


Thirdly, the actual price of their products (and yes I have owned Apple products many years ago)
Their products (and what's actually inside them) should cost around the same as any other PC, phone, tablet.. Yet they are (in my estimation) vastly overpriced. Remembering that many of their suppliers also supply most computer manufacturers with almost the same chips, circuit boards and components. Do you really think a supplier chooses to charge more for a capacitor/diode/resistor/etc, just because the order has come from Apple? Nah I didn't think so either.

Fourth,, Their stupid ongoing arguments about intellectual property. Stupid things like "We invented the oblong with rounded corners." "We devised a certain finger movement for our tablets." Wowee Didn't see that coming. I think I'll register intellectual property on a certain two fingered movement for a forthcoming computer product. (you use it when it goes wrong) :D :D :D

1. Apple have over the last 12 months issued many patches to block the illegal activity of malware creators.

2, go away an research yourself the employment conditions in China and not just believe discredited press. While you are at do similar research fo Korea, United Kingdom, USA, India........

3. I am impressed that you know Apples Cost structures, overheads ROi that you can determine they are pricing incorrectly.

4. Apple not the only company protecting their IP.

aysiu
April 23rd, 2012, 08:20 PM
The only problems I have with Apple are,,, the almost total lack of customer service, when things do go wrong. I actually have had the best customer service from Apple. I had a failed graphics card on a Macbook Pro that was out of warranty and with no Apple Care protection, and they replaced it for me within a day for free. Can't beat that for customer service.
For instance, the last malware to infect their products, (yes I know,, downloaded by the end user so it's their own fault) For over a week Apple did nothing about this, telling customers it was their own fault that they had downloaded software,(purporting to be a security program from Apple) rendering their computers useless. What a way to treat your customer base. It was the customers' own faults. Trojans have to be installed by the user. And, even better, even if people had had so-called "antivirus" installed, the so-called protection software would not have staved off the attack. Trojans can be successful on any platform, because they exploit user gullibility instead of system vulnerability.


Love or loathe Windows, at least you know they are on the ball with security issues Not really. They patch things about the same speed as Ubuntu or Apple does.
whereas most Mac users tell you they NEVER, suffer from anything at all ( a sort of smugness wiped off their smiles when things do go wrong ??) I never do suffer from any malware at all, and that's on Windows, Ubuntu, Mac, Android, and iOS. Stay patched, use strong passwords, don't do anything stupid, and be generally vigilant, and you'll be fine. Rely mostly or solely on "antivirus" and "security" software, you will most likely be compromised.


Apple Corp's disgusting use of cheap labour in China, where employees of a company that supplied only Apple, were driven to suicide, or suffered health problems. Apple's response to the situation? "Nothing to do with us matey, they're only a supplier."
Yeah right. That supplier (Foxconn) provides computer parts for every major manufacturer, not just Apple.


Apple's relationship with it's customers and suppliers certainly isn't the best in the world ,,, is it? Why not?


Thirdly, the actual price of their products (and yes I have owned Apple products many years ago)
Their products (and what's actually inside them) should cost around the same as any other PC, phone, tablet.. Yet they are (in my estimation) vastly overpriced. Remembering that many of their suppliers also supply most computer manufacturers with almost the same chips, circuit boards and components. Do you really think a supplier chooses to charge more for a capacitor/diode/resistor/etc, just because the order has come from Apple? Nah I didn't think so either. Apple has to recover its R&D costs, and computer costs are not just the raw materials but how they're assembled. Since Apple also makes the software, there's far more costs involved for them in terms of making sure the software and hardware work well together.

That said, if you compare the cost of the latest iPhone to the latest Android phones, the costs are very similar if not exactly the same.


Fourth,, Their stupid ongoing arguments about intellectual property. Stupid things like "We invented the oblong with rounded corners." "We devised a certain finger movement for our tablets." Wowee Didn't see that coming. I think I'll register intellectual property on a certain two fingered movement for a forthcoming computer product. (you use it when it goes wrong) :D :D :D Yes, this I can agree with you on. Software patents are stupid, and Apple's sue-happy approach is sickening.

mikewhatever
April 23rd, 2012, 08:37 PM
Another reason... http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 08:45 PM
Another reason... http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/

To err is human. And of course others like HP, IBM, Samsung,Sony, Canonical, Redhat, Toyota, GM................ Have never made mistakes.

rg4w
April 23rd, 2012, 08:57 PM
It was the customers' own faults. Trojans have to be installed by the user.
While that's generally true for the majority of viruses on most platforms, I believe this latest Mac malware was similar to some of the Safari exploits we've seen in recent years in which it required no user interaction:

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/14/216231/new-targeted-mac-os-x-trojan-requires-no-user-interaction

jockyburns
April 23rd, 2012, 09:30 PM
Another reason... http://www.seattlerex.com/seattle-rex-vs-apple-the-verdict-is-in/


And on the same page, another link, another reason

http://www.seattlerex.com/linux-apple-and-the-lurid-allure-of-consumerism/

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 09:44 PM
And on the same page, another link, another reason

http://www.seattlerex.com/linux-apple-and-the-lurid-allure-of-consumerism/

hmmmm how many threads and how many posts have I seen where ubuntu, Redhat, Mint, Gnome, KDE, Fedora............... have made mistakes?

The guy is biased like most blog, Pseudo Journalists are, I grant the issue over his Laptop if "his" side of teh story is accurate is a mistake by Apple, however not being privy to all teh facts and trial transcripts it's impossible to be sure.

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 09:51 PM
While that's generally true for the majority of viruses on most platforms, I believe this latest Mac malware was similar to some of the Safari exploits we've seen in recent years in which it required no user interaction:

http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/04/14/216231/new-targeted-mac-os-x-trojan-requires-no-user-interaction

True. Which is why, if you're going to be upset with Apple, be upset with them for not patching their Java sooner.

rg4w
April 23rd, 2012, 10:05 PM
True. Which is why, if you're going to be upset with Apple, be upset with them for not patching their Java sooner.
That seems to be a common criticism:
http://www.google.com/search?q=most+dangerous+os

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 10:30 PM
That seems to be a common criticism:
http://www.google.com/search?q=most+dangerous+os

It is somewhat confusing: Java isn't included with the latest version of OS X as a default install. You only have it installed if you have upgraded from an older version of OS X, are running an older version, or have installed it for a particular reason. The logic behind this, as I understood it, was it allowed Apple to stop supporting Java and just have OS X users use the same Sun Java as the rest of the world. The Apple version of Java is really a hangover from the OS 9 days, when Apple's OS was noncompliant with just about everything out there.

IMO, Apple needs to clarify this policy. Either stop supporting any kind of Apple Java and let us use the Sun Java (which you can already do, obviously) or keep Apple's Java up-to-date with Sun's.

rg4w
April 23rd, 2012, 10:35 PM
It is somewhat confusing: Java isn't included with the latest version of OS X as a default install.
That's fine for the subset of Mac users who did a fresh install of Lion, but remember that Lion won't run on a great many Macs still in use since it requires Core 2 Duo or better. And among those with more recent CPUs, many did upgrades rather than wipe and start over.


IMO, Apple needs to clarify this policy. Either stop supporting any kind of Apple Java and let us use the Sun Java (which you can already do, obviously) or keep Apple's Java up-to-date with Sun's.
That seems to be most people's beef on this latest malware round, since it seems most other OSes provided the patch weeks earlier than Apple did.

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 10:41 PM
That seems to be most people's beef on this latest malware round, since it seems most other OSes provided the patch weeks earlier than Apple did.

it's not that other OSes patched before Apple. It's that Apple uses its own Java. Like I said, I think Apple should officially drop their Java and just use Sun's. Maybe with the release of 10.8 in a few months that will happen.

edit: The end result is that Apple have no one to blame but themselves for this latest scare.

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 11:18 PM
it's not that other OSes patched before Apple. It's that Apple uses its own Java. Like I said, I think Apple should officially drop their Java and just use Sun's. Maybe with the release of 10.8 in a few months that will happen.

edit: The end result is that Apple have no one to blame but themselves for this latest scare.

Themselves and the scum that create the malware

dpny
April 23rd, 2012, 11:38 PM
Themselves and the scum that create the malware

Malware is a fact of life. Apple should be better prepared. As I said, perhaps 10.8 will see the end of Apple's Java.

MisterGaribaldi
April 23rd, 2012, 11:41 PM
C'mon, guys, don't feed the trolls.

Anyone with their facts so twisted up as that clearly is a troll from the word go.

KiwiNZ
April 23rd, 2012, 11:55 PM
Malware is a fact of life. Apple should be better prepared. As I said, perhaps 10.8 will see the end of Apple's Java.

quiescent acceptance of Malware as an everyday element is what the criminals want.

dpny
April 24th, 2012, 12:04 AM
quiescent acceptance of Malware as an everyday element is what the criminals want.

That's another thread, yeah?

gardnan
April 24th, 2012, 12:18 AM
quiescent acceptance of Malware as an everyday element is what the criminals want.

How is that what the criminals want? They want companies to be aware of the threats of malware, so as to issue updates to protect their users?

wolfen69
April 24th, 2012, 04:28 AM
I may have responded earlier in this thread, but can't be bothered to check.

To keep it simple, I don't like, nor use apple products. That should be enough reason.

The debate can literally go on forever. Why love apple? Why hate apple? Why love/hate anything? It's fun reading what others have to say though.

KiwiNZ
April 24th, 2012, 04:39 AM
I may have responded earlier in this thread, but can't be bothered to check.

To keep it simple, I don't like, nor use apple products. That should be enough reason.

The debate can literally go on forever. Why love apple? Why hate apple? Why love/hate anything? It's fun reading what others have to say though.

it's fun to play with the haters :P;)

wolfen69
April 24th, 2012, 04:46 AM
it's fun to play with the haters :P;)

I know exactly what you mean. :cool:

I'll have to go back and read some of your posts. :)

madverb
April 24th, 2012, 08:02 AM
Apple leads in hardware integration, not in terms of hardware specifications or overall price. Samsung is a hardware supplier that's trying to become a comsumer brand. Apple has a very simple product line and clear marketing message, while Samsung is trying to enter and compete in every single market segment and price point, all at once, without any apparently strategy. Apple products seem to be consistant from the standpoint of design and quality and Apple has a good reputation for support, namely through Apple Stores. Samsung's products vary from outstanding to highly dubious and support is something of a question mark? Overall, I really don't see any comparison. Samsung is just a big South Korean chaebol, and if it hadn't been for the big 90s Asian Economic crisis, every South Korean chaebol would be making electronics. Honestly, if someone likes a Samsung product and understands the risks and rewards, fine and dandy. Personally, I'm not all that impressed with Samsung.

"Samsung is a hardware supplier that's trying to become a comsumer brand." What does that even mean? Seriously?

KiwiNZ
April 24th, 2012, 09:01 AM
"Samsung is a hardware supplier that's trying to become a comsumer brand." What does that even mean? Seriously?

He is saying that a company reporting profits well in excess of $20 billion and with assets close to $500 billion are just playing at it.

mikewhatever
April 24th, 2012, 12:31 PM
To err is human. And of course others like HP, IBM, Samsung,Sony, Canonical, Redhat, Toyota, GM................ Have never made mistakes.

Perhaps they do, and perhaps don't. I am not going to help derailing the thread by discussing it. Apple has refused to replace a defective product, and trying to justify that by saying, ...but others may have done it as well, is a lame attempt at playing the devil's advocate.

jockyburns
April 24th, 2012, 05:40 PM
I mentioned earlier about the lack of support from Apple when users had problems

Here's a link to Apple's original stance when the MacDefender hit thousands of users (Apple's own customers)
http://www.linkedin.com/news?viewArticle=&articleID=541541597&gid=51825&type=member&item=55503624&articleURL=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ezdnet%2Ecom%2Fblog%2 Fbott%2Fapple-continues-to-tell-support-reps-do-not-help-with-mac-malware%2F3375%3Ftag%3Dmantle_skin%3Bcontent&urlhash=2wVL&goback=%2Egde_51825_member_55503624

rg4w
April 24th, 2012, 05:45 PM
Perhaps they do, and perhaps don't. I am not going to help derailing the thread by discussing it. Apple has refused to replace a defective product, and trying to justify that by saying, ...but others may have done it as well, is a lame attempt at playing the devil's advocate.
Are you referring to this case?:

Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/19/blogger-victorious-over-apple-in-small-claims-case-on-nvidia-gpu-failures/

nutpants
April 25th, 2012, 12:22 AM
to many seeds..

jockyburns
April 25th, 2012, 12:41 AM
too many seeds..
Yep,,, I bet that Johnny Appleseed, is turning in his grave. :D :D :D :D :D :D

MisterGaribaldi
April 25th, 2012, 02:05 PM
Are you referring to this case?:

Blogger Victorious over Apple in Small Claims Case on NVIDIA GPU Failures
http://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/19/blogger-victorious-over-apple-in-small-claims-case-on-nvidia-gpu-failures/

Most interesting. However, given that they replaced a MBP for me out of warranty, I suspect this is more due to the individuals involved than it is some grand master conspiracy. I used to work for a major electronics firm, and I've seen this kind of thing happen. As an employee, when I would get into this sort of a situation, I would just shake my head and do my best to un-***k what we'd done up to that point. Sorry to refer to it in that language, but that's what it was.

jockyburns
April 27th, 2012, 10:18 PM
Has anyone noticed, just how many people who own Mac's are using Linux OS's though. Says a lot about Mac OS, when they choose to use Linux. Still they come on here and argue that the sun shines out of Apple's backside. :P:P:P:P:P

KiwiNZ
April 27th, 2012, 10:49 PM
Has anyone noticed, just how many people who own Mac's are using Linux OS's though. Says a lot about Mac OS, when they choose to use Linux. Still they come on here and argue that the sun shines out of Apple's backside. :P:P:P:P:P

No,

Colo2
April 27th, 2012, 11:30 PM
1. Apple think its acceptable to re-release all of their products with bigger screens and with features that should have been included in the original products.
2. Their lame excuse of a media manager "iTunes" only works properly on MACs, performance on even quad core Windows pcs seems ridiculous.
3. To make iOS apps, you MUST have a MAC.
4. To make iOS apps, you MUST pay a developers tax to Apple.
5. Their prices for everything are beyond ridiculous. A PC of the same spec would cost half as much as a MAC.
6. Apple devices' parts are non-replaceable and non-repairable. All must be done via Apple outlets for a charge
7. Apple uses 3rd world countries to make their products, and treat their workers with 0 respect. The following things have happened under their jurisdiction:
. Apple factory exploding, killing multiple workers
. Apple forcing workers to work stupidly long hours causing in leg swelling
. Apple exposing their customers to poisonous, toxic chemicals causing injury.
. Apple employee committing suicide because he lost an iPhone prototype (can you imagine the stress they are under)

Regards

Tom

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092277/Apple-Poor-working-conditions-inside-Chinese-factories-making-iPads.html

Colo2
April 27th, 2012, 11:32 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092277/Apple-Poor-working-conditions-inside-Chinese-factories-making-iPads.html

lancest
April 28th, 2012, 12:34 AM
1.
[B]7. Apple uses 3rd world countries to make their products, and treat their workers with 0 respect. The following things have happened under their jurisdiction:
. Apple factory exploding, killing multiple workers
. Apple forcing workers to work stupidly long hours causing in leg swelling
. Apple exposing their customers to poisonous, toxic chemicals causing injury.
. Apple employee committing suicide because he lost an iPhone prototype (can you imagine the stress they are under)

Regards

Tom

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2092277/Apple-Poor-working-conditions-inside-Chinese-factories-making-iPads.html

You other points are interesting and depending on angle quite valid.

But the fact is that those jobs in China are very desirable for factory workers. Much more desireable than elsewhere because of better conditions/higher pay. People wait in line- every day trying to gain employment.
Workers put in long hours because the overtime pay was needed to support their families. Since that time they have instituted a 49 hour work week and workers are very unhappy. (due to interference from international workers rights groups).
I say we leave them alone- because their management will continue to screw them over if we pressure.

jockyburns
April 28th, 2012, 01:57 AM
No,

How come there's a complete section in the forums for Mac users running Linux Distro's on their machines then ???????? (or are you going to tell me , that's irrelevant?)

KiwiNZ
April 28th, 2012, 02:49 AM
How come there's a complete section in the forums for Mac users running Linux Distro's on their machines then ???????? (or are you going to tell me , that's irrelevant?)

There are a lot of subsections your earlier post was irrelevant and trolling

jockyburns
April 28th, 2012, 05:32 PM
There are a lot of subsections your earlier post was irrelevant and trolling


On the subforum "Apple Users", there are no subsections whatsoever. I do think my mention of MAC users installing Linux Os's is relevant and certainly not trolling. I don't think someone using a Mac and using an Apple Corp OS, would have any reason to come on to this forum. Therefore it follows that Mac users on this forum will be either dual booting,or using a Linux OS (more specifically Ubuntu, or a variant) If there are MAC users on here who only use a Linux OS (having dumped their original OS) then it's certainly relevant.

aysiu
April 28th, 2012, 06:13 PM
I don't think someone using a Mac and using an Apple Corp OS, would have any reason to come on to this forum. Therefore it follows that Mac users on this forum will be either dual booting,or using a Linux OS (more specifically Ubuntu, or a variant) Actually, I use a Macbook Pro with Mac OS X, and I have still found a reason to come on to this forum--to support and have discussions with Ubuntu users. I know some of the Stallmanesque purists here might hate on me, but I no longer use Ubuntu as my main OS. I still like Ubuntu, I like most of the people who use Ubuntu, and I also want to support Ubuntu users who have technical problems. But Mac OS X is my main OS. By your reasoning, though, I have no reason to be here.

KiwiNZ
April 28th, 2012, 07:36 PM
On the subforum "Apple Users", there are no subsections whatsoever. I do think my mention of MAC users installing Linux Os's is relevant and certainly not trolling. I don't think someone using a Mac and using an Apple Corp OS, would have any reason to come on to this forum. Therefore it follows that Mac users on this forum will be either dual booting,or using a Linux OS (more specifically Ubuntu, or a variant) If there are MAC users on here who only use a Linux OS (having dumped their original OS) then it's certainly relevant.

Subsections on UF let me count thee, 1 2 3 4 5 20 21 22 30...................

I use a Mac
I use PC's
I use iPads
I use IBM servers

I use OSX
I use Windows
I use Ubuntu

I don't dual boot

Zukaro
April 28th, 2012, 09:14 PM
I don't really hate Apple. I love Apple, but at the same time I do hate them.



I love Apple because their devices look really nice, and work really well with their services generally without too many issues.

I hate Apple because of how restricted their devices are, and because they only work with their services.


I like their computers because they're durable and don't use much plastic (I hate plastic, if I can get a device with absolutely no plastic in it (or at least on the case) then that's good). Plastic to me is a cheap material, I prefer metal. :P

But anyways, their computers tend to be durable (or so I've heard), and I like the way they look. :P



I'd never get an iMac but for portable devices I like Apple (however, I also dislike them :P). My iPod Touch for example, used to have 8GB of storage and now only has 6 due to an update. I've heard it's possible to downgrade but it never seems to work for me.

SemiExpert
April 30th, 2012, 02:53 PM
Actually, I use a Macbook Pro with Mac OS X, and I have still found a reason to come on to this forum--to support and have discussions with Ubuntu users.

I do have to ask if you are using Ubuntu in virtualization or as a dual-boot?


I know some of the Stallmanesque purists here might hate on me, but I no longer use Ubuntu as my main OS.
The real Stallmanesque purists are probably still adherents to GNU/Hurd, not GNU/Linux.

I still like Ubuntu, I like most of the people who use Ubuntu, and I also want to support Ubuntu users who have technical problems. But Mac OS X is my main OS. By your reasoning, though, I have no reason to be here.

If you want to go out a physical retail location to purchase a high quality notebook computer with a pre-loaded Unix-like operating system, Apple is literally the only choice.

MisterGaribaldi
May 3rd, 2012, 01:27 AM
This would have been a good reason to hate on Apple:


http://img577.imageshack.us/img577/1286/ambassadorkosh.jpg

overdrank
May 3rd, 2012, 01:31 AM
On that note thread closed.