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View Full Version : To those who do NOT use only LTS versions. Please be tolerant with us...



emarkay
April 10th, 2012, 04:11 AM
Those on the "upgrade train" are going to meet a lot of us who now HAVE to update (or is that upgrade?), and just want to transition smoothly. I am sure MANY discussions formerly talked to death will be reopened for commentary, workarounds and solutions.

The 10.4 to 12.4 is introducing things like Unity, and other things which we may get used to in time. However there are some things that are not obvious, or are not there anymore and need workarounds, or are just forgotten and/or broken.

We may not have even been on these forums in two years! Some of us did not have an interest or need to know about the releases in between. Many of us did not read the articles, blogs and comments made then about the complaints and praises of those releases.

I expect to be doing this for a few weeks as I slowly wean myself away from 10.04, while others are jumping in head first and overwriting their 10.04...

Forgive us if we ask what may be obvious, or question something buried years ago. I am finding a few work-stoppers, much to learn, and yes, a few cool new features on my second day here. I (and others) will need answers, suggestions and support at times.

Thank you,
MRK

QIII
April 10th, 2012, 04:15 AM
Ignore the jerks you encounter. You know that most here aren't.

jerrrys
April 10th, 2012, 04:26 AM
Want to upgrade?

http://www.googlubuntu.com/results/?cx=006238239194895611142:u-ocqbntw_o&q=upgrade+10.04+to+12.04&sa=Search&cof=FORID:9

kansasnoob
April 10th, 2012, 04:41 AM
Patience and tolerance work both ways ;)

Just be patient and ignore the answers you don't like.

Also remember that 10.04 is supported for another entire year so you can expect many bugs to be worked out of 12.04 in the next few months.

And it may take a few weeks after final release for some of the "how-tos" to be written and perfected.

tlcstat
April 10th, 2012, 05:20 AM
Delete

jerrylamos
April 10th, 2012, 01:11 PM
Greetings,
If you like to use a LTS then I would't use 12.04 since it is still in beta and has a lot of breakage. When it goes final LTS it won't be found in this section. Just search for whatever problems you may have under the regular forum headings.
Good luck!
tlcstat

Lately I've found 12.04 pretty solid (once you get by install!). There was a massive update to 3.2.0-22 now seems to be settling down.

Recommended - carve out a test partition (10 GB in my case) and give it a whirl. I prefer unity-2D sharp fast display vs. -3D foggy fuzzy hard to read semi-transparent pseudo touch screen compiz overhead, but that's your choice.

Enjoy.

Jerry

grahammechanical
April 10th, 2012, 01:49 PM
I do not have any problem with answering the same question again and again because by then I know the answer. I do take issue with those who are looking to moan and complain.

We have had more than moans. We have also had a form of abuse when 11.04 came out and then when 11.10 came out and we will get it again when 12.04 is released.

Tell us what you want to know but do not tell me what you like or don't like about this and that. I do not want to know. We have the Community Cafe for that. I can choose to go in the cafe or not. Remember, your post gives me a right to reply and that is that start of an argument.

Regards.

bodhi.zazen
April 10th, 2012, 08:55 PM
Those on the "upgrade train" are going to meet a lot of us who now HAVE to update (or is that upgrade?), and just want to transition smoothly. I am sure MANY discussions formerly talked to death will be reopened for commentary, workarounds and solutions.

The 10.4 to 12.4 is introducing things like Unity, and other things which we may get used to in time. However there are some things that are not obvious, or are not there anymore and need workarounds, or are just forgotten and/or broken.

We may not have even been on these forums in two years! Some of us did not have an interest or need to know about the releases in between. Many of us did not read the articles, blogs and comments made then about the complaints and praises of those releases.

I expect to be doing this for a few weeks as I slowly wean myself away from 10.04, while others are jumping in head first and overwriting their 10.04...

Forgive us if we ask what may be obvious, or question something buried years ago. I am finding a few work-stoppers, much to learn, and yes, a few cool new features on my second day here. I (and others) will need answers, suggestions and support at times.

Thank you,
MRK

Your issues are not unique to LTS -> LTS upgrades, we support all upgrades as much as possible.

My advice is that you start with backups.

You can then attempt an upgrade, most of the time I anticipate it will go well. If stability is important, wait 4-6 weeks until after 12.04 is released.

If you have a problem ask for help.

In the unlikely event you have catastrophic system failure (it happens), be prepared for a fresh install and restore your data from backup.

Personally I keep a /data partition , makes upgrades and fresh installs rather trivial.

BigCityCat
April 10th, 2012, 10:22 PM
One thing I have learned is that this site has a wonderful search tool. You can find a valid topic on just about any issue.

ranch hand
April 11th, 2012, 12:07 AM
Your issues are not unique to LTS -> LTS upgrades, we support all upgrades as much as possible.

My advice is that you start with backups.

You can then attempt an upgrade, most of the time I anticipate it will go well. If stability is important, wait 4-6 weeks until after 12.04 is released.

If you have a problem ask for help.

In the unlikely event you have catastrophic system failure (it happens), be prepared for a fresh install and restore your data from backup.

Personally I keep a /data partition , makes upgrades and fresh installs rather trivial.
This is a very good response. I do want to add one thing though.

As a user of the LTS I am sure you know that there are "step" releases. You are currently using 10.04.4 (last step release).

I would not upgrade (technically a version upgrade) until the first step release at least. This gives the thing a chance to be actually out there on a lot of hardware, more bugs discovered and fixed.

12.04.1 is due July 19th. 12.04.2 is due 1-31-13. These are basically just new install disks that are up to date on packages.

Anytime you upgrade you will be up to date on packages anyway but I think that just about any time between those 2 releases is a good time to upgrade a LTS.

I may not use Ubuntu but my wife uses 10.04 and sometime in there I will be upgrading her box.

kansasnoob
April 11th, 2012, 12:19 AM
This is a very good response. I do want to add one thing though.

As a user of the LTS I am sure you know that there are "step" releases. You are currently using 10.04.4 (last step release).

I would not upgrade (technically a version upgrade) until the first step release at least. This gives the thing a chance to be actually out there on a lot of hardware, more bugs discovered and fixed.

12.04.1 is due July 19th. 12.04.2 is due 1-31-13. These are basically just new install disks that are up to date on packages.

Anytime you upgrade you will be up to date on packages anyway but I think that just about any time between those 2 releases is a good time to upgrade a LTS.

I may not use Ubuntu but my wife uses 10.04 and sometime in there I will be upgrading her box.

+1! A lot of things will be fixed by the time 12.04.1 hits, and there will also be tons of cool how-to's regarding customization :)

It's really hard to do a decent how-to while things are still in development because things can change from day to day.

ubuntu27
April 11th, 2012, 06:53 AM
This is a very good response. I do want to add one thing though.

As a user of the LTS I am sure you know that there are "step" releases. You are currently using 10.04.4 (last step release).

I would not upgrade (technically a version upgrade) until the first step release at least. This gives the thing a chance to be actually out there on a lot of hardware, more bugs discovered and fixed.

12.04.1 is due July 19th. 12.04.2 is due 1-31-13. These are basically just new install disks that are up to date on packages.

Anytime you upgrade you will be up to date on packages anyway but I think that just about any time between those 2 releases is a good time to upgrade a LTS.

I may not use Ubuntu but my wife uses 10.04 and sometime in there I will be upgrading her box.

This is one of the best advice I've run across regarding LTS to LTS upgrade.

I forgot that there are "step release". I will keep this in mind when trying to help others.

ranch hand
April 11th, 2012, 10:56 PM
This is one of the best advice I've run across regarding LTS to LTS upgrade.

I forgot that there are "step release". I will keep this in mind when trying to help others.
The step releases just update the ISO image to current for that date.

That first step release is important in that the new release has not been tested on enough diverse hardware.

The many bugs that are evident at release time should be well in hand by that first step.

By the second step the thing should be rock solid.

They are just handy dates to keep in mind and the assumptions could, of coarse, be wrong. I think they are prety safe.

tlcstat
April 12th, 2012, 03:50 PM
Delete

bodhi.zazen
April 12th, 2012, 04:09 PM
I personally have 12.04 installed on a separate 160Gig HD and although nice, it is for the most part is unusable.

Although I appreciate 12.04 is still in development, I have not had the experience of "unusable".

Have you filed a bug report on LP addressing your issues ?

IMO you should not be running a development release, much less label it as "unusable", unless you are willing to file bug reports.

shadowfirebird
April 12th, 2012, 04:12 PM
Greetings,
This is a testing section. If you are not a tester, please don't replace your current operating system with 12.04 until the final release has been available for at least one month.

Well, I for one appreciate your candour and tend to agree.

But, you should in that case brace yourself for a lot of questions here from non-testers, regardless. If you go to the Ubuntu homepage, the first thing you see is "Ubuntu 12.04 LTS is in final beta now. Download it today!"

This would appear to be at odds with your perfectly reasonable position.

(UPDATE: Since TCLStat has deleted their post, I'll just explain: they implied that at the moment (2012/4/13) 12.04 seems to be not ready for serious, stable use. I agree.)

tlcstat
April 12th, 2012, 04:39 PM
Delete

tlcstat
April 12th, 2012, 05:06 PM
Delete

bodhi.zazen
April 12th, 2012, 05:41 PM
Your intolerance for other peoples experience goes back to the OP's concerns.

You were the one who posted lecturing people about running a beta release, I just wanted to add you your advice and suggest you really need to be filing bug reports.

I am not intolerant of your experience, I am intolerant of your use of "unusable" if you are unwilling to file a bug report, huge difference.

If you run a beta, and run into problems, please do not complain about it on the forums.

Mathor
April 12th, 2012, 06:42 PM
Greetings,
Original by bodhi.zazen


Well now that's why there are multiple post on the forum. It is because everyone's experience isn't the same. It depends on what they are trying to get working. My experience is "unusable". I'm not trying to post "your experience". Your intolerance for other peoples experience goes back to the OP's concerns.

tlcstat

Experiences aside, and usable or unusable, most of the mainlines freezes are over, so what you can currently download as an iso from the daily live current will most certainly be about identical to the stable LTS iso at this point. That being said, 12.04 might produce some instability, but that would be the same amount of instability that would come with every new release until 12.04.1 and 12.04.2 are released.



Questions!, Questions! I'm bracing myself for all the the corrupt installations and lost data complaints because they didn't back-up.
tlcstat

You are correct, but unfortunately if you can't get Precise running now, you probably won't be able to get it running when the LTS comes out either.

shadowfirebird
April 12th, 2012, 09:59 PM
Experiences aside, and usable or unusable, most of the mainlines freezes are over, so what you can currently download as an iso from the daily live current will most certainly be about identical to the stable LTS iso at this point.

Ye gods, I hope not. I'm still getting crashes every day.

(Total count at close of play today: two X crashes and one kernel panic.)

Trapper
April 12th, 2012, 10:27 PM
Ye gods, I hope not. I'm still getting crashes every day.

(Total count at close of play today: two X crashes and one kernel panic.)

Unfortunately, what Mathor just said could apply to you:


..... if you can't get Precise running now, you probably won't be able to get it running when the LTS comes out either. Have you tried a secondary install to see how that acts on your machine?
Are you doing something that's demanding more resources than you have?
Does your machine have some uniquely special hardware(s).
How's your memory?
How's your hard drive(s)?
Blah, blah, blah.

Rather than wait to see if things clear up, perhaps it's wise to consider doing a deeper investigation into why what's happening is happening.

emarkay
April 13th, 2012, 01:28 AM
Yes, but to reiterate, I intended to make a statement to those who know to be patient with those who don't know, in any of the many posts, threads and opinions here.

I have been doing this since 2006 and am now finding some fundamental issues, some bizarre and near stupid bugs/features, and have a learning curve to remember new things like which button-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-screen minimizes the window...

A sincere thank you to those that have helped so far!
MRK

shadowfirebird
April 13th, 2012, 09:58 AM
Have you tried a secondary install to see how that acts on your machine?
Are you doing something that's demanding more resources than you have?
Does your machine have some uniquely special hardware(s).
How's your memory?
How's your hard drive(s)?


In order:

Ran fine on 10.04, but I'm certainly considering dropping back to 11.04. I don't want to do that, though. Switching this machine to dual-boot would be a PITA because of data on existing partitions -- a lot of data.

No.

Not unless you count an NVidia GC.

4Gb.

Again, the hard drive worked with no problems in 10.04.

Trapper
April 13th, 2012, 06:11 PM
Switching this machine to dual-boot would be a PITA because of data on existing partitions -- a lot of data.



Yeah, I've been there before too. I have had circumstances where I was able to do some resizing and moving around to create an extra partition using gparted on SystemRescueCD. Other times it just wasn't feasible to do so. Too bad you can't do something here. At least if the install behaved the same as the current one it would eliminate a sour original install from the list of possible problems.

kansasnoob
April 13th, 2012, 06:29 PM
Yes, but to reiterate, I intended to make a statement to those who know to be patient with those who don't know, in any of the many posts, threads and opinions here.

I have been doing this since 2006 and am now finding some fundamental issues, some bizarre and near stupid bugs/features, and have a learning curve to remember new things like which button-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-screen minimizes the window...

A sincere thank you to those that have helped so far!
MRK

It would be really good to know if you're still just testing the live session, or if you've now upgraded to Precise, or if you've installed Precise to a separate partition.

I had a well accepted procedure posted for a Oneiric classic DE using Metacity by selecting Classic (no effects):

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1886799

I'm working on the same thing for Precise but a lot of stuff is still "cookin' in the oven":

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=11835822&postcount=389

Some patience on your part is also required, 10.04 (Lucid) is still supported for another year so give us time to finish cooking the how-to's and why-for's ;)

kansasnoob
April 13th, 2012, 06:32 PM
In order:

Ran fine on 10.04, but I'm certainly considering dropping back to 11.04. I don't want to do that, though. Switching this machine to dual-boot would be a PITA because of data on existing partitions -- a lot of data.

No.

Not unless you count an NVidia GC.

4Gb.

Again, the hard drive worked with no problems in 10.04.

One thing stands out here:

Switching this machine to dual-boot would be a PITA because of data on existing partitions -- a lot of data.

Believe me the data you don't have backed up to an external source is the data you'll lose!

shadowfirebird
April 13th, 2012, 07:54 PM
Believe me the data you don't have backed up to an external source is the data you'll lose!

You are of course quite right :)

I've backed up as much as I can, but I'm out of spare hard disks at the moment, and no money I can sensibly allocate to buy more... More importantly I don't really have the time to sort out the useful data from the crap right now.

In any case this is tangental to the subject. The data is on seperate partitions and can be safely left alone by any OS install. (Disregarding that nasty Precise install bug where you have to tell it to format /home :) )

NHclimber
April 13th, 2012, 08:07 PM
Not unless you count an NVidia GC.

I had my first hard lockup *ever* (flashing capslock + scrollock) this Tuesday which I think is probably related to nvidia-current 295.33 on 3.2.0-22-generic. I was able to reproduce doing something else shortly after.

One thing that was strange that hadn't happened before was I went to switch to another VT (tty1) and it never came up -- just DPMS'd both monitors off.

Haven't been able to reproduce it on nouveau at all.

I'm still working at capturing this panic. crashkernel+kdump didn't work. usb debugging sucks. and serial tty is soooooo sloowwwwww. need to get that firewire console up and running....

kelpdip
April 13th, 2012, 09:43 PM
There have been installer bugs in the past that destroy filesystems on disks that aren't even being used for install. In non-beta versions no less.


You are of course quite right :)
...
In any case this is tangental to the subject. The data is on seperate partitions and can be safely left alone by any OS install. (Disregarding that nasty Precise install bug where you have to tell it to format /home :) )

ranch hand
April 13th, 2012, 09:50 PM
You are of course quite right :)

I've backed up as much as I can, but I'm out of spare hard disks at the moment, and no money I can sensibly allocate to buy more... More importantly I don't really have the time to sort out the useful data from the crap right now.

In any case this is tangental to the subject. The data is on seperate partitions and can be safely left alone by any OS install. (Disregarding that nasty Precise install bug where you have to tell it to format /home :) )
If you are installed on 2 partitions (/ and /home) you only need enough room for another / partition.

Just use the same /home for both. You do need to use a unique user name for each install so that the ~/.hidden (user specific config files) do not conflict.

I have never tried it but really do not know why it would not work with a single partitions install as well. I certainly would not try it in your position though.

Will have to try it someday on my test platform.

jerrylamos
April 14th, 2012, 12:42 AM
I run maybe 4 test partitions + an Archive library partition. The test partitions have a few utilities in home, including an "arc" exec that copies files to the corresponding folders in Archive, if they are newer. Typical test partition for ubuntu unstable is 10 GB.

The base folder in Archive has the latest unbuntu iso and a zsync exec. I boot directly from the .iso using a 40_custom entry. Install is done into one of the test partitions chosen ahead of time.

Any partition changes are done before with gparted, certainly not with install's ubiquity. Take a look at ubiquity's launchpad bug record....

Now early in alpha partitions and boot can and do get screwed up. Lately pangolin installs have been good no showstoppers except for my vintage 2005 Thinkpad R31 where install dies partway thru copying. I run a lubuntu alpha updated to 3.2.0-23 on it.

Enjoy,.

Jerry

p.s. on topic I've been running early unstable ubuntu's since Dapper Drake, LTS or not. I don't notice LTS being any more stable, it just gets updates from ubuntu longer.

bodhi.zazen
April 14th, 2012, 12:53 AM
p.s. on topic I've been running early unstable ubuntu's since Dapper Drake, LTS or not. I don't notice LTS being any more stable, it just gets updates from ubuntu longer.

Usually that is the case , but

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LTS


We are more conservative in our package merge with Debian, auto-synching with Debian testing, instead of Debian unstable.

The non-LTS releases sync with Debian unstable.

"stability is in the experience of the tester"

cariboo907
April 14th, 2012, 04:35 AM
+1 to what bodhi.zazen said, I've found this cycle to be pretty boring, as Precise has been very stable from the start, especially if you check this sub-forum, before doing any updates.

treesurf
April 14th, 2012, 04:48 AM
I agree. This has actually been more uneventful than most of the past stable release installations I have done.

effenberg0x0
April 14th, 2012, 05:29 AM
I wonder if this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam/Specs/Priorities) will still be a priority in a normal (non-lts) cycle. Because as soon as sabdfl published this (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/938), we sure lost a lof of the breakage fun in PP cycle (like we had in OO and previous).

Immediately after that, we started referring to "Development Release users" (not testers). It was an enormous change. I was kind of worried with this strategy when it was announced during this cycle, in the sense that keeping things usable for non-technical users could take some boldness out of coders, inhibit creativity and innovation. I hope there's less pressure on this in QQ (personal opinion).

Despite some legacy bugs, PP was actually so stable I used it as a 24/7 server. That's boring :)

Regards,
Effenberg

Gyokuro
April 14th, 2012, 04:13 PM
My plan is to switch workstations, laptops with release 12.04.2 but that all depends on how well the training for the new LTS release goes due to Gnome 2 to Unity DE. Servers are supported till 2015 so there is plenty of time to sit out most problems which should fixed until release 12.04.2 :-)

emarkay
April 15th, 2012, 11:55 PM
It would be really good to know if you're still just testing the live session, or if you've now upgraded to Precise, or if you've installed Precise to a separate partition.

Sorry for the delay in response.

Separate partition, triple booting.

Updating daily and rebooting often.

Still forcing myself to grasp the major differences. I know 10.04 is still alive, but I wanted to get in early in case I saw anything really bad that needed a bug report... :)

Thank you,
MRK

Johnny3
April 16th, 2012, 02:20 AM
One thing I have learned is that this site has a wonderful search tool. You can find a valid topic on just about any issue.

Also http://www.googlubuntu.com/ is good too.
Thanks and God Bless Johnny3 65++++
12.04 has been doing good for me. Last week or so a lot of good updates.

jbicha
April 16th, 2012, 03:25 AM
I wonder if this (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PlusOneMaintenanceTeam/Specs/Priorities) will still be a priority in a normal (non-lts) cycle. Because as soon as sabdfl published this (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/938), we sure lost a lof of the breakage fun in PP cycle (like we had in OO and previous).

Immediately after that, we started referring to "Development Release users" (not testers). It was an enormous change. I was kind of worried with this strategy when it was announced during this cycle, in the sense that keeping things usable for non-technical users could take some boldness out of coders, inhibit creativity and innovation. I hope there's less pressure on this in QQ (personal opinion).



Yes, that's one of the discussions I'm looking forward to listening to in a few weeks at UDS. Is the time and developer effort it takes to make sure Ubuntu+1 stays installable & mostly usable worth it for all releases? All of the work in setting up the Jenkins & similar automated tests surely won't be just tossed aside. I think Ubuntu+1's quality will be permanently improved, even though not all releases will be as focused on stability & bugfixing as the TLS releases.