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InspiredIndividual
April 10th, 2012, 02:21 AM
Ever since switching to Ubuntu Linux I haven't looked back: the operating system fit my needs perfectly. After some time of playing around I settled down as a LTS user, which means that I'm currently on 10.04. Now the end of the support cycle is approaching with 12.04 LTS knocking on the door, and for the first time I am really wondering whether the new Ubuntu LTS version will be a good OS for me. I haven't followed all the discussion about the Unity and the like, but it seems that 12.04 LTS will be radically different from 10.04 LTS. I'm not sure this is the right subforum to post, but I hope someone can help me make a more informed decision.


Security & stability
Sticking to 10.04 LTS is probably not a sustainable option once the support ends. I don't like frequent changes to my system, but 12.04 is a LTS version so that's cool. Ubuntu has huge repositories, so if I need some specific application in the future, chances are it's available without having to compile the code myself. This will probably be better in 12.04 than in 10.04 as well, especially for newer software. Ubuntu has mostly worked out of the box for me, and for things that didn't work out of the box these forums are perfect. Another point in favour of 12.04, since support for older Ubuntu versions is slightly harder to come by.
Performance
I prefer performance to visual embroidery. Optimizing performance by switching off all graphical effects and the like is the first thing I do after a fresh install. I do use a few heavy applications (e.g. Matlab) and I do not want fancy things to take up resources. This is one of the main reasons why I am rather doubtful of the merits of 12.04 for me personally. Maybe Lubuntu 12.04 would be the better choice on this point?
Desktop usage
For me, the desktop is my productivity hub. TODO-list, who to contact, what did I borrow of whom, follow-up actions, etc., there's a simple text file for all of those in the corner of my desktop. I read that it was not possible to have desktop icons in Unity in previous versions, will this be the same in 12.04?
Keyboard usage
I like using a keyboard much more than using a mouse. There are a lot of keyboard shortcuts which I frequently use, and I have enabled mouse keys in order to control the mouse pointer with my keypad in those few cases where lack of a mouse is bothersome (e.g. Flash-app stealing focus in my browser). The Unity way of accessing content seems to be focused around mouse usage. Firthermore, I currently just hit Alt+F2 to open the "Run Application" window. I read that there was no run dialog in some previous Unity versions, how about in 12.04?

I would be very grateful for any input.

emarkay
April 10th, 2012, 02:54 AM
Stability, security, performance, configurability. Forget the gee-whiz "impress me because you can" doo-hickeys.
I am sure I can get 12.04 to the simplicity of 10.04. I may have to beg, borrow and steal to get it that way, but it is inevitable that I update to the next LTS.

While I am sticking with XP for my flight simulator (after I unplug the network cable exactly 2 years from now...), I can't afford my main OS o be crippled and or unsecured after the OEM stops support.

Thanks for your post. It is good to know that some of us still do real work on these things!

MRK

Penguinnerd
April 10th, 2012, 03:03 AM
Maybe Lubuntu 12.04 would be the better choice on this point?


Ha. That was my plan... So much for that:

Lubuntu 12.04 isn't LTS. It only has 18 months of support.
Xubuntu 12.04 only has 3 years of support.
The only 5-year support is for Ubuntu and Kubuntu.

I'm not happy about that, but it is what it is... It's nice that there's the extended LTS (5 years vs three) but the thing that most annoys me is the lack of any extended support for Lubuntu.

People who use older hardware would appreciate a lightweight LTS release, because it means that they won't be forced to upgrade their hardware just 18 months later.

craig10x
April 10th, 2012, 03:06 AM
you really wouldn't need desktop icons with unity since your desktop icons ARE in the unity dock itself (it's called the "launcher")...
and you can add/remove all the icons you like...

and if you prefer doing most things with key shortcuts, well there is tons of those (though i prefer doing most things by mouse myself)....

yes...it's a bit different then what you are use to...but if you go into it with an OPEN MIND and a POSITIVE ATTITUDE, and work with it for a few weeks, i would say the odds are you will like it very much...

i didn't think i'd like it either when i started using it (especially after reading various negative comments about it)...but i did what i just described and now really enjoy using it...
it's performance has improved with each new edition of it...and it isn't really particularly heavy on resources either...

arpanaut
April 10th, 2012, 03:15 AM
#1 remember that you actually have another year of full support for 10.04 . So don't feel stress to upgrade immediately.

#2 there is a gnome fallback option that has a very similar UI to what you are used to in lucid.

#3 if you have extra disk space it would serve you well to install 12.04 on a separate partition and test how it is going to work for you, see what changes you are facing without jeopardizing your current set up.

#4 Unity is actuall quite impressive, just takes some getting used to, but there are a lot of other options for a desktop environment that may suit you better, to each their own.

#5 don't panic there is plenty of time to consider your options and find a way forward.

Good luck!

CottonCandy
April 10th, 2012, 04:11 AM
Desktop usage
For me, the desktop is my productivity hub. TODO-list, who to contact, what did I borrow of whom, follow-up actions, etc., there's a simple text file for all of those in the corner of my desktop. I read that it was not possible to have desktop icons in Unity in previous versions, will this be the same in 12.04?

I am using 11.10 and am able to put files on the desktop so I think you will be able to put your text file there.
You cannot put program icons there though. As craig10x pointed out, that is what the unity dock/launcher is for.





Keyboard usage
I like using a keyboard much more than using a mouse. There are a lot of keyboard shortcuts which I frequently use, and I have enabled mouse keys in order to control the mouse pointer with my keypad in those few cases where lack of a mouse is bothersome (e.g. Flash-app stealing focus in my browser). The Unity way of accessing content seems to be focused around mouse usage. Firthermore, I currently just hit Alt+F2 to open the "Run Application" window. I read that there was no run dialog in some previous Unity versions, how about in 12.04?.

This really helped me a lot:
Unity Keyboard Shortcuts:

Edit:Sorry I don't know how to make that smaller!


yes...it's a bit different then what you are use to...but if you go into it with an OPEN MIND and a POSITIVE ATTITUDE, and work with it for a few weeks, i would say the odds are you will like it very much...

i didn't think i'd like it either when i started using it (especially after reading various negative comments about it)...but i did what i just described and now really enjoy using it...

Unity is actuall quite impressive, just takes some getting used to
+1 Unity takes getting used to.You may even find once you get used to things you are actually more productive with Unity than you were before! And if not, like arpanaut said,

there is a gnome fallback option that has a very similar UI to what you are used to in lucid.

there are a lot of other options for a desktop environment that may suit you better, to each their own.

Also, this is a very good idea:

if you have extra disk space it would serve you well to install 12.04 on a separate partition and test how it is going to work for you, see what changes you are facing without jeopardizing your current set up.

cariboo907
April 10th, 2012, 04:15 AM
If Untiy doesn't suit you, Xubuntu may work better for you. 12.04 will be an LTS release, although it will only be supported for 3 years.You get all the Ubuntu goodness without all the extra features.

kansasnoob
April 10th, 2012, 04:45 AM
#1 remember that you actually have another year of full support for 10.04 . So don't feel stress to upgrade immediately.

#2 there is a gnome fallback option that has a very similar UI to what you are used to in lucid.

#3 if you have extra disk space it would serve you well to install 12.04 on a separate partition and test how it is going to work for you, see what changes you are facing without jeopardizing your current set up.

#4 Unity is actuall quite impressive, just takes some getting used to, but there are a lot of other options for a desktop environment that may suit you better, to each their own.

#5 don't panic there is plenty of time to consider your options and find a way forward.

Good luck!

+1 gazillion !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ubuntu27
April 10th, 2012, 04:57 AM
Security & stability
Sticking to 10.04 LTS is probably not a sustainable option once the support ends. I don't like frequent changes to my system, but 12.04 is a LTS version so that's cool.

:)

Ubuntu 10.04 is supported until April 2013. You still got one year.



Performance
I prefer performance to visual embroidery. Optimizing performance by switching off all graphical effects and the like is the first thing I do after a fresh install.

Ubuntu Precise Pangolin so far has good performance in my experience. But, if you want, you can still use Ubuntu with Gnome Classic (or a.k.a Gnome Fallback). There is also Ubuntu with Gnome Classic without Desktop Effects if you prefer.

You have many choices for (X)Ubuntu 12.04 ;-)

Ubuntu with Unity 3D
Ubuntu with Unity 2D
Ubuntu with Gnome Shell
Ubuntu with Gnome Classic, and with Effects
Ubuntu with Gnome Classic without Effects
Xubuntu 12.04 LTS
Kubuntu 12.04
Lubuntu 12.04 (No LTS?)

See this article:
GNOME Classic in Ubuntu 12.04: It’s Like Nothing Ever Changed (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/03/gnome-classic-in-ubuntu-12-04-its-like-nothing-ever-changed/)

Your other choice is to use Xubuntu (http://xubuntu.org/) 12.04 which is another LTS.




Desktop usage
For me, the desktop is my productivity hub. TODO-list, who to contact, what did I borrow of whom, follow-up actions, etc., there's a simple text file for all of those in the corner of my desktop. I read that it was not possible to have desktop icons in Unity in previous versions, will this be the same in 12.04?


I don't have any problems having desktop icons (files) in Ubuntu Precise P.
If you mean launchers... I never tried putting some launcher icons on the desktop, so I will try them and get back to you. [I am currently testing Ubuntu with gnome classic]



Keyboard usage
I like using a keyboard much more than using a mouse. There are a lot of keyboard shortcuts which I frequently use, and I have enabled mouse keys in order to control the mouse pointer with my keypad in those few cases where lack of a mouse is bothersome (e.g. Flash-app stealing focus in my browser). The Unity way of accessing content seems to be focused around mouse usage.


Good news for you. Ubuntu with Unity is filled with keyboard shortcuts. People are simply too used to mouse i suppose, but that is not how Unity was created. Unity was created to be accessible and fast. If you have something in particular that you want to find, you simply search for it with keywords. And voila! "icon/app/file found".

Some example of Keyboard shortcuts:

Super+A for Application Lenses
Super+F for File Lenses
Super+Numbers to run your favorite apps that is locked on the Launcher.

etc


If you keep pressing SUPER (or a.k.a Meta Key or Windows Key), a list of Unity shortcut will appear on top of the screen.

You can still control the mouse pointer if you configure it.




Keyboard usageFirthermore, I currently just hit Alt+F2 to open the "Run Application" window. I read that there was no run dialog in some previous Unity versions, how about in 12.04?


We still have Run Application with ALT+F2. It just looks much more visually attractive and fancy.

xajeiw9I
April 10th, 2012, 05:58 AM
I've been digging computers since 1993 and Unity has become my guilty pleasure. I understand people that want Windows 95/XP interface style to be standard forever, maybe they have good reasons to need that. I don't do any professional work with computers that would require me to do something that would make Unity interfere with my workflow, so I don't ever want to be unfair to those that might have a good reason to dislike it.

But I can't recommend it more to those that are not afraid to change and want to try something that is new and change the bad habits we have from the past. Having icons laid in the desktop is so ancient and confusing. If you have too many stuff to add to the launcher, you can start typing to find the file/program you need, and that might be faster than looking for that icon and double clicking it, and it will allow you to open whatever you want much faster than opening the file manager and manually seeking that file that does not have an icon added to your desktop.

It is about changing habits, and since I don't have many that conflicted with Unity, I can't wait to use it as my everyday desktop. If you ever get worried about it, just install gnome-desktop package and run it in classic mode. Have some fun doing some very easy changes with alt + right click over the bars and you will have your old Ubuntu back, if you want.

Derek Karpinski
April 10th, 2012, 08:00 AM
files and .desktop program launchers can be created on the desktop.

dcstar
April 10th, 2012, 08:58 AM
.........
Good news for you. Ubuntu with Unity is filled with keyboard shortcuts. People are simply too used to mouse i suppose, but that is not how Unity was created. Unity was created to be accessible and fast. If you have something in particular that you want to find, you simply search for it with keywords. And voila! "icon/app/file found".
........

This made me laugh. Many (many) years ago there was this word processor called WordPerfect, it was a massively powerful tool that was the market leader in the pre-Windows world, but it relied almost totally on keyboard shortcuts.

Along came a more primitive (and bug-ridden) alternative called Microsoft Word, it was designed to be mouse and menu driven so people did not have to remember the multitude of keyboard shortcuts required to do useful things and they were able to be productive with the tool in a fraction of the time it took to master WordPerfect.

Microsoft Word smashed WordPerfect in the marketplace because of this simple difference.

It is obvious that to get around the inherent shortcomings of a touchscreen interface (Unity) that the sub-standard paradigm of keyboard shortcuts has now been resurrected. While this may be necessary for pissy little interfaces like phones and pads it is rubbish on separated I/O setups (a mouse, keyboard and monitor) compared to direct pointing and menus.

Having to use TWO different input devices (a mouse then the keyboard) to do what was simply (and quickly) done with just the mouse previously - launching applications - is an incredible inefficient step backwards.

Learn from history, most people are not tech-geeks that want to learn arcane keystroke combinations to do stuff, keyboard shortcuts are an embarrassing throwback to wallpaper over the limitations of this "better" interface that is the current fad.

kaldor
April 10th, 2012, 09:15 AM
Solution to all the "problems" related to the new desktop:


sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

Relogin selecting GNOME Classic. Done.

kansasnoob
April 10th, 2012, 09:52 AM
Solution to all the "problems" related to the new desktop:


sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

Relogin selecting GNOME Classic. Done.

In Precise you can just install 'gnome-panel', it does exactly the same thing.

And many may find that "Classic no effects" works better because it uses Metacity rather than Compiz.

InspiredIndividual
April 10th, 2012, 10:40 AM
Thanks for all your comments so far!

Lubuntu 12.04 isn't LTS. It only has 18 months of support.
Xubuntu 12.04 only has 3 years of support.
The only 5-year support is for Ubuntu and Kubuntu.That really is a shame...


files and .desktop program launchers can be created on the desktop.Ah, thanks. That's what I was looking for.


We still have Run Application with ALT+F2. It just looks much more visually attractive and fancy.Nice, have they fixed tab autocompletion already?


Having to use TWO different input devices (a mouse then the keyboard) to do what was simply (and quickly) done with just the mouse previously - launching applications - is an incredible inefficient step backwards.Ironically, I share the sentiment that a single input device is more efficient - and that's the keyboard, since you need it for typing anyway. Your story about WordPerfect vs. Word is funny, but ubuntu27 was just addressing my initial question about keyboard shortcuts, since I do like them. I surmise from your post that you do not like Unity, what would you advise me to do then?


if you have extra disk space it would serve you well to install 12.04 on a separate partition and test how it is going to work for you, see what changes you are facing without jeopardizing your current set up.
I understand the general idea behind this, but since it is probably inadvisable to keep 10.04 in the long run, why not bite the bullet immediately. My /home folder is on a separate partition already. Thus, if I'm going to have some work to do on a new install anyway and the general opinion is that it will take quite some time to get used to 12.04, I may as well look around and try a few different options. Ubuntu, Lubuntu or Xubuntu 12.04, checking out Mint or Debian (both related to Ubuntu, so maybe quite similar), or maybe try something new like Arch...

CaptainMark
April 10th, 2012, 11:26 AM
By the time 12.04 comes out the linux mint guys should have finished cinnamon for ubuntu 12.04, im using cinnamon on 11.10 and its awesome for people who miss the old type desktop and dont want all the new bells and whistles that come with unity and gnome-shell

jerrylamos
April 10th, 2012, 12:51 PM
For pc's that are fast enough, I find myself using 12.04 unity-2D on test systems with a choice of a variety of ubuntu partitions. Since this is "development unstable" I do have a 10.04 partition for fallback in case of screw ups.

On pc's not quite that fast I run 12.04 lubuntu which to me has much of the functionality of 10.04. Very nice. Fast! Easy! I do remove chromium browser which automatically installs firefox (less disk space by the way) and install libre office if I'm doing copying articles from the internet.

Yes, there's a learning curve as ubuntu management is headed headlong into a pseudo tablet look, feel, cumbersome more keystrokes/mouse actions, big fat finger sized icons to do what's easy on 10.04 and 12.04 lubuntu. the launcher is hidden somewhere and I would like to be able to add applets to the unity-2D panel like I do easily on lubuntu.

Jerry

bluenova
April 10th, 2012, 01:29 PM
Security & stability
Sticking to 10.04 LTS is probably not a sustainable option once the support ends. I don't like frequent changes to my system, but 12.04 is a LTS version so that's cool. Ubuntu has huge repositories, so if I need some specific application in the future, chances are it's available without having to compile the code myself. This will probably be better in 12.04 than in 10.04 as well, especially for newer software. Ubuntu has mostly worked out of the box for me, and for things that didn't work out of the box these forums are perfect. Another point in favour of 12.04, since support for older Ubuntu versions is slightly harder to come by.
Performance
I prefer performance to visual embroidery. Optimizing performance by switching off all graphical effects and the like is the first thing I do after a fresh install. I do use a few heavy applications (e.g. Matlab) and I do not want fancy things to take up resources. This is one of the main reasons why I am rather doubtful of the merits of 12.04 for me personally. Maybe Lubuntu 12.04 would be the better choice on this point?
Desktop usage
For me, the desktop is my productivity hub. TODO-list, who to contact, what did I borrow of whom, follow-up actions, etc., there's a simple text file for all of those in the corner of my desktop. I read that it was not possible to have desktop icons in Unity in previous versions, will this be the same in 12.04?
Keyboard usage
I like using a keyboard much more than using a mouse. There are a lot of keyboard shortcuts which I frequently use, and I have enabled mouse keys in order to control the mouse pointer with my keypad in those few cases where lack of a mouse is bothersome (e.g. Flash-app stealing focus in my browser). The Unity way of accessing content seems to be focused around mouse usage. Firthermore, I currently just hit Alt+F2 to open the "Run Application" window. I read that there was no run dialog in some previous Unity versions, how about in 12.04?

I would be very grateful for any input.

12.04 certainly sounds like the way forward for you. Using the keyboard is much easier than in previous versions. As others have mentioned hold down Super to see a list of shortcuts plus the shortcuts are very easily configurable to your needs. There is also the HUD which will allow you to access any menu through the keyboard.

Yes tab complete is fixed in the run dialogue and yes desktop shortcuts and files works just the same as in previous versions.

I think your style of working will suit Unity very well it might just take a bit of time to get used to the new interface. You seem to have the impression Unity is mouse orientated, this is not true. Whilst it is still very easy to use the mouse to access things it is much easier to use the keyboard than in Gnome2. Chances are by the time the next LTS is released things will have vastly changed again so you may as well keep up with the change now.

jbicha
April 10th, 2012, 01:46 PM
Unity is far more keyboard accessible than gnome-panel or GNOME 2 ever was.

As was mentioned earlier in the thread, it's probably not too difficult to see up a Virtualbox or even a separate partition to try Ubuntu 12.04, but still have the option of keeping what you're familiar with until you're ready. There's no need to take a blind leap into this.

InspiredIndividual
April 11th, 2012, 12:14 AM
In the grand scheme of things Ubuntu as an operating system stayed pretty much the same from 8.04 LTS up until 10.04 LTS. From a global perspective I understand Canonical's decision to streamline their OS along different devices and adapt to the modern ways of user input influenced by the smartphone era. From a personal perspective I just want a stable system, since the day-to-day tasks that I perform on my desktop have stayed pretty much the same over the last few years and I see no reason why that would be any different in the near future.

Chances are by the time the next LTS is released things will have vastly changed again so you may as well keep up with the change now.
This is exactly what I am concerned about. At the end of the day I use the computer as a rather simple tool. What's the advantage for me of spending time to learn new ways of doing the same things of old? My hardware will remain the same until in breaks down, so for me as a user I don't see the point of changing the software radically. Improving performance, increasing security and dealing with small annoyances (e.g. the "One Hunderd Paper Cuts (https://launchpad.net/hundredpapercuts)" project), why do I need more?!

Anyway, thanks for all the comments. After the release I will try Ubuntu 12.04 and probably the related versions of Xubuntu and Lubuntu as well to see how I like them.

mcellius
April 11th, 2012, 12:43 AM
Many (many) years ago there was this word processor called WordPerfect, it was a massively powerful tool that was the market leader in the pre-Windows world, but it relied almost totally on keyboard shortcuts.

Along came a more primitive (and bug-ridden) alternative called Microsoft Word, it was designed to be mouse and menu driven so people did not have to remember the multitude of keyboard shortcuts required to do useful things and they were able to be productive with the tool in a fraction of the time it took to master WordPerfect.

Microsoft Word smashed WordPerfect in the marketplace because of this simple difference.I was a user of WordPerfect, too (4.2 and then 5.1, a real masterpiece). But one of the reasons Microsoft Word beat WordPerfect back then was that Windows 3.0 was recently out and was becoming popular. Word for Windows was WYSIWYG, while WordPerfect was DOS-based and using it meant entering codes for things (keybard shortcuts), but you couldn't really see the results (unless you switched to "Preview" mode). I had to use "Reveal Codes" quite a lot, too, to see what special formatting I had applied to a character, word, or sentence. But I hated the switch to Word for Windows.

Do you remember the little strips of paper that everyone had above their function keys with WordPerfect? Every function key had three or four different purposes, depending on whether you hit the key by itself, or in combination with ALT, Shift, or CTRL. It worked great, but all of that was annoying and diffcult. It wasn't just a matter of using the keyboard, but of remembering lots of non-intuitive and difficult-to-remember key combinations.

The mouse got rid of that. You didn't have to remember a few dozen special key combinations: you could just find what you needed in the menus. For the relatively few experts, the switch made things a bit slower, but on the other hand it made most people quite a bit more productive.

The keyboard approach was never perfect, nor is the mouse. The mouse has probably done more to open up computers to the masses, which is a very good thing. One thing I like about Unity is that I can use the keyboard when I want, and the mouse when it works better for me.

Mathor
April 11th, 2012, 12:53 AM
Unity is rather impressive, though i've opted for Gnome 3.4 in Precise. Gnome Shell is is the most efficient thing I've used, and though I've been a long-time fan of Lucid Lynx, particularly with XFCE, i've found ways to do things that although they are "different" are simply "better" or "faster." Change is good.

EDIT:

with a mouse gesture I can open 20 windows in a spread, then quickly go back and forth through these windows without ever touching my keyboard. I can drag these windows into any workspace in exactly the same way, in merely seconds with just one or two mouse clicks. I don't see how this can be faster with Lynx without the use of keyboard shortcuts or Compiz effects that do almost the same thing as shell does.

NagiMani
April 11th, 2012, 07:43 AM
This looks like the thread for Bean Spillers ( http://goo.gl/jtJZW ), so FWIW:

First, as a certified digital dummy, I'm honor-bound to thank those who've spoken in straight lines without mincing words, and without the happy-skippy handwringing over a new UI, namely:

dcstar
Learn from history, most people are not tech-geeks that want to learn arcane keystroke combinations to do stuff, keyboard shortcuts are an embarrassing throwback to wallpaper over the limitations of this "better" interface that is the current fad.

kaldor
Solution to all the "problems" related to the new desktop:
Code: sudo apt-get install gnome-session-fallback

kansasnoob
In Precise you can just install 'gnome-panel', it does exactly the same thing.

IMHO:

Unity UI = Disruptive Innovation... a notion which comes from a page out of Mao's Little Red Book - which is often strangely confused with Sun Tsu's Art of War (insert bean-spilling tongue in cheek + eye-rolling icons here).

Smooth transitions are usually a better idea, since transitions are less likely to *stop* work flow while the production-oriented huddled masses read a new user's manual, re-train their sense-memory, download dozens of ancillary warez, and buy new hardware to accommodate code changes and additional code volume.

The way to accommodate both innovation and legacy-transition is to run both as parallel projects. In other words: Keep tweaking Gnome as your traditional home-run hitter, while developing Unity on a separate track. Combining two projects by the seat of the pants often causes a stable product to bump heads with a hybrid (like Unity with a Gnome-revert option). At best, it causes a serious resource-hog issue which can be a real show-stopper on laptops and netbooks.

I know: Unity and the Gnome-revert option haven't officially, verifiably bumped heads (yet) on epic scale. But like the Zen Master said: "We'll See."

In the meantime:

1.
U10 and Asus (maybe U10 and half the world's hardware?) need relationship counseling - a discord which has cost me metric tons of work downtime and money. U11 invokes Unity, which does work on my machine but requires much more screen switching and tweaking in order to complete simple tasks than does Gnome.

2.
Smoke's rolling off my digital prayer beads as I cast my vote for the day when hardware and software mfr's will actually test-drive and burn-in their disruptively innovative products before dumping them onto the unwitting user population. That, toward the end of products that Just Work (like <=U9 Gnome). Likewise, I'm hoping that mfr's will get a grip on the fact that faster and wilder change ain't necessarily better change.

3.
Rhetorical test question (as much for me as anyone else):
If I were using Ubuntu in an enterprise setting - say a business with 50 Ubuntu-users - I wonder how the advent of Unity-UI would affect operations, and what options I'd have to either transition to Unity or sustain Gnome (warning: trick question).


Suggestions for Focus:
1 - Perpetual tweaking of Gnome as your home-run hitter
2 - Ubuntu Enterprise version
3 - A world-class exploit/vulnerability prevention and remediation team
4 - Develop Unity (et al, no doubt) separately
5 - All the above under the thematic banner "Just Works"



Nagi

dcstar
April 11th, 2012, 09:45 AM
..........
Ironically, I share the sentiment that a single input device is more efficient - and that's the keyboard, since you need it for typing anyway. Your story about WordPerfect vs. Word is funny, but ubuntu27 was just addressing my initial question about keyboard shortcuts, since I do like them. I surmise from your post that you do not like Unity, what would you advise me to do then?


You can go to 12.04 and use Gnome 3 but be very aware that a lot of Gnome 2 functionality has not been migrated to Gnome 3 (and it looks like it won't because the Gnome developers have basically lost interest and are now focussed on Unity).

If you are willing to accept - or don't care about - the loss of many things that Gnome 2 used to do then the Gnome 3 desktop will keep doing most of the stuff that you are used to.

12.04 will support more modern hardware, it will load and shutdown quicker and will have more up to date versions of things that you probably use now. If you want to keep using Evolution for mail then you will get a much later version than is used in 10.04.

I will probably go to 12.04 about two months after the official release date when all the bugs are finally resolved.

NagiMani
April 11th, 2012, 01:21 PM
<snip> If you are willing to accept - or don't care about - the loss of many things that Gnome 2 used to do then the Gnome 3 desktop will keep doing most of the stuff that you are used to.

Do you know if there is / will be any way to combine U12.04 and Gnome2 (rather than accept a Gnome3 default) ?

InspiredIndividual
April 11th, 2012, 05:29 PM
You can go to 12.04 and use Gnome 3 but be very aware that a lot of Gnome 2 functionality has not been migrated to Gnome 3 (and it looks like it won't because the Gnome developers have basically lost interest and are now focussed on Unity).

If you are willing to accept - or don't care about - the loss of many things that Gnome 2 used to do then the Gnome 3 desktop will keep doing most of the stuff that you are used to.
Well, I am obviously unaware what those things are that are lost in Gnome 3. A Google search resulted in this article (http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-3.html), and while the article is clearly biased, it does sound as if Gnome 3 will not be to my liking.



I will probably go to 12.04 about two months after the official release date when all the bugs are finally resolved.
Thanks, this is a very useful tip.

kansasnoob
April 11th, 2012, 05:52 PM
Well, I am obviously unaware what those things are that are lost in Gnome 3. A Google search resulted in this article (http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-3.html), and while the article is clearly biased, it does sound as if Gnome 3 will not be to my liking.


Thanks, this is a very useful tip.

Biased article and total crap :frown:

That said, the same source is generally a good source so they're not particularly at fault, there is simply a lot of FUD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt) going around.

I was able to get Oneiric (11.10) to perform in a manner that would be almost indistinguishable from Gnome version 2:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1886799

It will be even simpler in Precise (12.04) which is a 5 year LTS version so you'll have 5 whole years of the ability to use a "classic" DE if you so wish!

But those of us that produce these how-to's are quite often the same people that perform testing, so you need to be patient :D

The sky is not falling, the world is not ending, and it's unlikely you'll be struck by lightning!

keithpeter
April 11th, 2012, 06:21 PM
...so you'll have 5 whole years of the ability to use a "classic" DE if you so wish!

Hello kansasnoob

So gnome-shell and gnome-panel &c are in 'main' and have LTS support?

Does anyone know if Canonical will support large sites who wish to offset training cost by using the classic sessions in place of Unity?

PS: I use and like Unity, but I can imagine the response to shifting say 1 500 screens over from 10.04 to 12.04 one weekend :twisted:

cariboo907
April 11th, 2012, 06:33 PM
Suggestions for Focus:
1 - Perpetual tweaking of Gnome as your home-run hitter

Ubuntu already tweaks gnome, Precise is gnome based, but the gnome developers seem to have lost their way, we have a tweaked System settings and more, with options not available with gnome-shell. Keep in mind that gnome will drop support of gnome-session-fallback a long time before 12.04 end-of-life's


2 - Ubuntu Enterprise version

Already done, Business Desktop Remix (http://www.ubuntu.com/business/desktop/remix)


3 - A world-class exploit/vulnerability prevention and remediation team

Between the kernel developers, the Debian Team and the Ubuntu devs, we have that


4 - Develop Unity (et al, no doubt) separately

It is.


5 - All the above under the thematic banner "Just Works"

For the majority of the people with commodity hardware it does, hardware problems for the most part except for bleeding edge are a fairly small part of the problems users run into. I'd suggest that most of the hardware problems you see on the forums, are more due to lack of knowledge or defects, than anything else

InspiredIndividual
April 11th, 2012, 08:20 PM
Biased article

I know, the author even acknowledges it himself in the very article. Nevertheless, some of his general observations do strike a chord with me:


There is no reason to make changes for the sake of change. (...) I want to be left in peace and allowed to use my computer without interruptions, including but not limited to new GUI every three months, new regressions in software, new and wicked surprises. (...) Install now and change your operating system whenever the hardware dies.

Maybe I was just naive to hope for this. From Canonical's point of view and Ubuntu's motto "Linux for human beings" it makes perfect sense to go with the flow and adapt to the expectations from the smartphone generation.

kansasnoob
April 11th, 2012, 08:34 PM
Hello kansasnoob

So gnome-shell and gnome-panel &c are in 'main' and have LTS support?

Does anyone know if Canonical will support large sites who wish to offset training cost by using the classic sessions in place of Unity?

PS: I use and like Unity, but I can imagine the response to shifting say 1 500 screens over from 10.04 to 12.04 one weekend :twisted:

I don't have a totally definitive answer to all of that but look at what adding "gnome-panel" actually adds:


Start-Date: 2012-04-11 08:38:32
Commandline: apt-get install gnome-panel
Install: libpanel-applet-4-0:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gir1.2-gconf-2.0:i386 (3.2.5-0ubuntu2, automatic), alacarte:i386 (0.13.2-2ubuntu4, automatic), indicator-applet-complete:i386 (0.5.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gnome-session-fallback:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu6, automatic), gnome-applets:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu1, automatic), python-gmenu:i386 (3.0.1-0ubuntu7, automatic), gnome-panel:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1), gnome-applets-data:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu1, automatic), gir1.2-panelapplet-4.0:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gnome-panel-data:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic)
End-Date: 2012-04-11 08:39:28

What part of that could create a security risk? I think none.

When it comes to 'gnome-shell' I'm totally clueless. I've never really spent any time trying to learn it because I find Unity to be far superior.

I now have trouble tearing myself away from Unity long enough to deal with the whole classic DE thing but I'll do it because I know some want it.

It's the same way with the non-pae issue; while I have no effected hardware I know it'll be an issue to some so I'm trying to come up with sensible solutions :D

keithpeter
April 11th, 2012, 09:14 PM
I don't have a totally definitive answer to all of that but look at what adding "gnome-panel" actually adds:


Start-Date: 2012-04-11 08:38:32
Commandline: apt-get install gnome-panel
Install: libpanel-applet-4-0:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gir1.2-gconf-2.0:i386 (3.2.5-0ubuntu2, automatic), alacarte:i386 (0.13.2-2ubuntu4, automatic), indicator-applet-complete:i386 (0.5.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gnome-session-fallback:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu6, automatic), gnome-applets:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu1, automatic), python-gmenu:i386 (3.0.1-0ubuntu7, automatic), gnome-panel:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1), gnome-applets-data:i386 (3.2.1-0ubuntu1, automatic), gir1.2-panelapplet-4.0:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic), gnome-panel-data:i386 (3.4.0-0ubuntu1, automatic)
End-Date: 2012-04-11 08:39:28

What part of that could create a security risk? I think none.

Perhaps so, but without a guarantee of security updates, it would be a brave administrator who put the gnome-classic on a large number of machines and left it there! I'm second guessing what people who run large installations of Ubuntu on client machines actually think about all this. Canonical will know from their analysis of the downloads when 12.04 rolls out.


I now have trouble tearing myself away from Unity long enough to deal with the whole classic DE thing but I'll do it because I know some want it.

It's the same way with the non-pae issue; while I have no effected hardware I know it'll be an issue to some so I'm trying to come up with sensible solutions :D

Your contributions are huge, and greatly appreciated. However the non-pae thing rolls, at least there is some pathway on Ubuntu for 5 years. The RHEL clones and Fedora went non-pae with their version 6.2 (close to Lucid).

TerryNewton
April 11th, 2012, 10:01 PM
I am really wondering whether the new Ubuntu LTS version will be a good OS for me. I haven't followed all the discussion about the Unity and the like, but it seems that 12.04 LTS will be radically different from 10.04 LTS.

My suggestion is to install it into VirtualBox (ignore the VirtualBox-induced bugs, some things aren't 100% compatible especially the graphics but also a nasty unclean shutdown bug hidden by Plymouth - wait about 20 seconds of doing nothing before rebooting or shutting down) and play with the system to see if it meets your needs. Or if you've got hard drive space to carve out a small partition (10-20 gigs), installing it for real is a better test but a bit riskier - make sure you know how to recover in case something goes wrong with grub etc. I'm almost to that point but I think I will wait until after release to make sure it's as safe as possible - for me VirtualBox testing has been good enough to test GUI's.

What I've found... yes the default is drastically different, but totally optional. As been pointed out installing gnome-panel is sufficient to mostly restore a traditional environment, there are still some theme issues but I was able to make a copy of Ambiance and hack what I didn't like to make it look the way I want. There's a lot of FUD going around, yes the right-click option to make desktop launchers was removed from nautilus but the same tool to make them is installed with gnome-panel, simply make a script named say "CreateLauncher" in .gnome2/nautilus-scripts containing...



#!/bin/bash
gnome-desktop-item-edit --create-new $(pwd) &


...make it executable, then right-click the desktop, scripts, run it, problem solved. Can also simply drag app menu items to the desktop. Right-clicking .desktop files to edit still works. Otherwise the nautilus desktop is fully intact, files, folders and symlinks are all supported.

With a few tweaks a gnome-panel session practically is Gnome 2, some things are different but not much. But it gets better... unlike Gnome 2, Gnome 3 permits having multiple Gnome sessions. The key files are .session files in /usr/share/gnome-session/sessions and .desktop files in /usr/share/xsessions - copy the files added by gnome-panel to new files and you can configure your own sessions to run what you want. The $DESKTOP_SESSION variable is set according to the chosen session, so I made a script and added it to my autostart programs so that I can load additional components based on the session. In my case I made "lxgnome" session files, then for the lxgnome session I load up lxpanel to have a nice and fast single-panel GUI using a nautilus desktop - kind of like LXDE but with nautilus instead (I need to have support for making symlinks to my work folders on the desktop). The lxpanel program supports different configs, so I can also add it to Unity and Gnome Shell sessions using different configs - if I want to.

Another trick is Unity 2D can be run on demand - not officially supported but I simply made launchers containing "unity-2d-shell" and "killall unity-2d-shell" so if I want to use Unity I can and when I'm done with it it goes away. Works with gnome-panel, gnome-shell and my custom lxpanel session. Unity has some cool features but I also need a regular panel with a simple app menu and window buttons to get stuff done.

To summarise... you might have to do a bit of configuring, but in the end 12.04 has probably more possibilities for customising than 10.04, plus offering pre-canned sessions for LXDE, XFCE, KDE, Gnome Panel and Gnome Shell. Cinnamon too if a PPA is added. If interested in how I configured Gnome 3, search for "Gnome 3 Stuff".

kansasnoob
April 11th, 2012, 10:04 PM
Two recent questions were raised about security if someone adds any DE available in the repos:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1954702

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=11827985#post11827985

I'm personally not satisfied with the responses but I can be a real jerk :twisted:

We know that stuff added by PPA is "untrusted", but is everything in the repos "trusted"?

kansasnoob
April 11th, 2012, 10:08 PM
My suggestion is to install it into VirtualBox (ignore the VirtualBox-induced bugs, some things aren't 100% compatible especially the graphics but also a nasty unclean shutdown bug hidden by Plymouth - wait about 20 seconds of doing nothing before rebooting or shutting down) and play with the system to see if it meets your needs. Or if you've got hard drive space to carve out a small partition (10-20 gigs), installing it for real is a better test but a bit riskier - make sure you know how to recover in case something goes wrong with grub etc. I'm almost to that point but I think I will wait until after release to make sure it's as safe as possible - for me VirtualBox testing has been good enough to test GUI's.

What I've found... yes the default is drastically different, but totally optional. As been pointed out installing gnome-panel is sufficient to mostly restore a traditional environment, there are still some theme issues but I was able to make a copy of Ambiance and hack what I didn't like to make it look the way I want. There's a lot of FUD going around, yes the right-click option to make desktop launchers was removed from nautilus but the same tool to make them is installed with gnome-panel, simply make a script named say "CreateLauncher" in .gnome2/nautilus-scripts containing...



#!/bin/bash
gnome-desktop-item-edit --create-new $(pwd) &


...make it executable, then right-click the desktop, scripts, run it, problem solved. Can also simply drag app menu items to the desktop. Right-clicking .desktop files to edit still works. Otherwise the nautilus desktop is fully intact, files, folders and symlinks are all supported.

With a few tweaks a gnome-panel session practically is Gnome 2, some things are different but not much. But it gets better... unlike Gnome 2, Gnome 3 permits having multiple Gnome sessions. The key files are .session files in /usr/share/gnome-session/sessions and .desktop files in /usr/share/xsessions - copy the files added by gnome-panel to new files and you can configure your own sessions to run what you want. The $DESKTOP_SESSION variable is set according to the chosen session, so I made a script and added it to my autostart programs so that I can load additional components based on the session. In my case I made "lxgnome" session files, then for the lxgnome session I load up lxpanel to have a nice and fast single-panel GUI using a nautilus desktop - kind of like LXDE but with nautilus instead (I need to have support for making symlinks to my work folders on the desktop). The lxpanel program supports different configs, so I can also add it to Unity and Gnome Shell sessions using different configs - if I want to.

Another trick is Unity 2D can be run on demand - not officially supported but I simply made launchers containing "unity-2d-shell" and "killall unity-2d-shell" so if I want to use Unity I can and when I'm done with it it goes away. Works with gnome-panel, gnome-shell and my custom lxpanel session. Unity has some cool features but I also need a regular panel with a simple app menu and window buttons to get stuff done.

To summarise... you might have to do a bit of configuring, but in the end 12.04 has probably more possibilities for customising than 10.04, plus offering pre-canned sessions for LXDE, XFCE, KDE, Gnome Panel and Gnome Shell. Cinnamon too if a PPA is added. If interested in how I configured Gnome 3, search for "Gnome 3 Stuff".

Great info, I hope to see you around more often :)

NagiMani
April 12th, 2012, 06:51 AM
1 - Ubuntu already tweaks gnome, Precise is gnome based, but the gnome developers seem to have lost their way, we have a tweaked System settings and more, with options not available with gnome-shell. Keep in mind that gnome will drop support of gnome-session-fallback a long time before 12.04 end-of-life's.

2 - Already done, Business Desktop Remix (http://www.ubuntu.com/business/desktop/remix)

3 - Between kernel developers, the Debian Team and the Ubuntu devs, we have that

4 - It is.

5 - For the majority of the people with commodity hardware it does, hardware problems for the most part except for bleeding edge are a fairly small part of the problems users run into. I'd suggest that most of the hardware problems you see on the forums, are more due to lack of knowledge or defects, than anything else

/

Sincere thanks for the straight talk.

Re: #3:
Is there a specific dedicated URL at which I can see an ongoing list of threats / vulnerabilities and their resolution status?

Re: #5:
Hardware industry standards and practices (or lack thereof) also comes into play, but that's a whole different can of worms.

Generally (Gnome->Unity):
I've had to read between the lines in re: the basic reasons for the shift from Gnome to Unity, but with minimal fuss I found a 2010 article that (arguably) explains the situation well enough to get the gist of it ( see http://goo.gl/uLiID and http://goo.gl/enII ).

FWIW - Post-Incident Observation:
If that article is even remotely close to accurate, then the bulk of "change-complaints" could have been addressed with some... broadbanded advance damage control. But that can be easier said than done. :)

All in all, you forum-Jedi are a pretty slick, dedicated and talented crew. You deserve a Herding Cats Award. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_MaJDK3VNE )


Nagi

dcstar
April 12th, 2012, 08:48 AM
Well, I am obviously unaware what those things are that are lost in Gnome 3. A Google search resulted in this article (http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/gnome-3.html), and while the article is clearly biased, it does sound as if Gnome 3 will not be to my liking.


It's the loss of features that I use that really annoys me, if everything Gnome 2 did was migrated to Gnome 3 then I wouldn't have any real problem with it at all.

Here's two examples:

1/ The Gnome Hardware Sensors applet that I currently use is not available in Gnome 3 - so I no longer have the convenience of my system's lm-sensors data sitting in my top panel.

2/ The "Typing Break" feature no longer exists in Gnome 3, so that handy reminder to get off my backside every hour for a 5 minute break is gone.

These aren't the only things, but just happen to be things that I found valuable for many years - I don't know exactly how many other goodies have been left abandoned in Gnome 2.

It just seems staggering to me that a decade of development effort of useful things has been gutted to provide a less functional "improved" version of Gnome. As they say in the classics: "WTF?".