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manzdagratiano
April 4th, 2012, 07:31 AM
Hey people!

Folks over at the Archlinux forums have created the following petition:

White House Linux Migration Petition (https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/%21/petition/migrate-linux-based-environment-order-significantly-cut-operating-costs-many-sectors-government/dNz5ybFS).

The petition has 18 signatures now, and needs 25000 by the end of April.

Considering the urgency for this, I did not bother checking if somebody already posted this here. I would urge all of you to sign the petition (apparently it is NOT limited to US residents only). I would also urge the venerable mods to move this to an appropriate subforum if they feel it will gain more visibility there (and merge it with an existing thread of it does).

I believe this issue is not limited to the US government alone, but is something that affects the global visibility of GNU/Linux as a whole.

By the way, there is another such petition for the UK government as well:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/32255

winh8r
April 4th, 2012, 08:14 AM
They already know:



http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?site=http://www.whitehouse.gov&probe=1



The cost of migrating everything to a new system, retraining hundreds of thousands of staff, and dealing with compatibility issues would far outweigh the benefit of savings on MS licences. Sad but true.

The real campaigning needs to targetted at schools and colleges, to prevent generations of children growing up and being convinced that there is "only" Windows and there is "only" Office.

If someone develops a Linux distro that is primarily aimed at addressing
hardware/software compatibility issues rather than showcasing design talent then there may be hope. Until then, the governments of the UK and the US will take the advice often repeated on this forum:

"Use what works for you"

I fully support the idea of the petitions but realise that the chances of them being successful on a national level are very slim at the present time.

keithpeter
April 4th, 2012, 08:28 AM
Hello All

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1951299

There is plenty happening outside the Western English speaking world.

I imagine as the 'business apps' become web protocol based then the client OS will be less important. Especially as a generation who are used to interface diversity (smartphones, tablets) move into work.

manzdagratiano
April 4th, 2012, 08:30 AM
The issue is deeper than the initial cost - time and again government systems running on Windows have been compromized by worms/trojans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_cyberattack_on_United_States

This notorious agent.btz worm apparently still exists, plaguing military systems:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/17/us-usa-cybersecurity-worm-idUSTRE75F5TB20110617

And the root cause of this continues to be an exploitable, closed source OS.

winh8r
April 4th, 2012, 09:15 AM
Hello All

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1951299

There is plenty happening outside the Western English speaking world.

I imagine as the 'business apps' become web protocol based then the client OS will be less important. Especially as a generation who are used to interface diversity (smartphones, tablets) move into work.


It is indeed heartening to see other governments around the world moving

to using open source operating systems, and I agree that the young people

of today are more "interface adaptable".

We can hope that if the young people of today are exposed to Open Source

operating systems now , then they will be more likely to see the benefit

of widespread adoption into the everyday working environment and

hopefully carry this through when they become the policy makers and

decision makers of the future.


manzdagratiano

Regardless of whether the operating system is open or closed source, if

you are in a position of authority, and have a computer network then

there will always be a challenge to that network by someone. Worms and

virii, in the wild are predominantly written to affect Windows because it

is the largest target, therefore the worm/trojan/virus is more likely to

be successful in achieving its intended aim. All operating systems are

equally vulnerable to malicious attacks and exploits in some way shape or

form.If the opposite were true then the US and UK governments would have

ditched MS long ago and there would be no need for a petition.

I get what you are saying, but there have been attacks and takedowns on

Linux servers and networks too. The limiting factors in the

implementation of Open Source operating systems across the board in the

UK and US government are immediate cost and staff training , the latter

will hopefully fade due to the point raised by keithpeter
above

Dave_L
April 4th, 2012, 01:21 PM
Are petitions such as this really useful?

I think you need to look at what MS does to get organisations to use their products, e.g., huge resources, integrated product suites, regulatory compliance. Then compete with them at that level.

haqking
April 4th, 2012, 01:25 PM
The issue is deeper than the initial cost - time and again government systems running on Windows have been compromized by worms/trojans:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_cyberattack_on_United_States

This notorious agent.btz worm apparently still exists, plaguing military systems:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/06/17/us-usa-cybersecurity-worm-idUSTRE75F5TB20110617

And the root cause of this continues to be an exploitable, closed source OS.

Linux is as exploitable and easily compromised as a windows system.

Besides they have greater issues security wise, like lack of good sys admins or ones with basic skills.

they leak a lot of metadata ;-)

aside from if the sys admins couldnt control a malware incident then they have even larger issues.

oh and these petitions are as useful as a chocolate fireguard

thatguruguy
April 4th, 2012, 01:36 PM
Are petitions such as this really useful?

Not even remotely.


apparently it is NOT limited to US residents only

Brilliant. Because if there is one thing that would sway the White House on this issue, it's the opinion of some random resident of Outer Mongolia. Incidentally, if the White House did allow this kind of petition to influence its decision-making policies, the right-wing radio and TV shows would be full of stories about how the White House allows terrorists (defined by right-wingers as anyone who isn't a white male U.S. citizen) guide their decisions. In other words, it would be political suicide.

This whole thing is chock-full of win.

wirepuller134
April 4th, 2012, 01:49 PM
Not even remotely.



Brilliant. Because if there is one thing that would sway the White House on this issue, it's the opinion of some random resident of Outer Mongolia. Incidentally, if the White House did allow this kind of petition to influence its decision-making policies, the right-wing radio and TV shows would be full of stories about how the White House allows terrorists (defined by right-wingers as anyone who isn't a white male U.S. citizen) guide their decisions. In other words, it would be political suicide.

This whole thing is chock-full of win.

+1 if I could click a like button I would.

forrestcupp
April 4th, 2012, 02:08 PM
Even if this type of petition could do any good, the ratio of Linux using constituents to Windows using ones is so low that they would just laugh it off. No one who matters is ever going to see this petition, anyway.

Besides, I'll echo the fact that a change this huge would shut things down and cost so much in manpower and training that it wouldn't save anything. Also, if the government started using Linux, malware hackers would just change their focus to that platform.

Sure, there are other nations changing things over. But the U.S. government is huge and overly complex compared to a lot of other governments that have done this. (and I'm not necessarily saying this as a good thing)


the right-wing radio and TV shows would be full of stories about how the White House allows terrorists (defined by right-wingers as anyone who isn't a white male U.S. citizen) guide their decisions.
No need to bring political stereotypes into this.

manzdagratiano
April 4th, 2012, 09:18 PM
I think accepting that such a petition is not useful is accepting defeat - we might as well give up and forget about Bug #1 and the like. After all, there were petitions against SOPA and PIPA which prevented them from passing! (granted they were backed by corporate power). As a community oriented towards the development and promotion of Ubuntu and GNU/Linux as a whole, I believe we need to keep trying - maybe someday we shall make a dent.

Moreover, the issue does not just end there - yes, you have the initial cost of moving over from Windows to Linux - no one needs to do this in a day; this process can be gradual. Also, no one would need to actually "train" that manpower per se - Linux is ubiquitous, and enough people are already exposed to its existence. So if there is a need fostered by a powerful entity like the Government for people with this specific skill to apply, then such people will apply, and more will train towards that endeavor. I have seen countless sysadmins who know next to nothing about the GNU/Linux philosophy, and yet they monitor GNU/Linux clusters in organizations every day - why do they do so? They are driven by that same void created by the ecosystem.

I think the logic is reversed here - people usually do not acquire a skill because they like to; they do so because they need to - they train to become Computer Scientists, Managers etc etc because there is a need for these skills, and the fulfilment of these needs pays well.

EDIT: And yes - the closed source issue. Indeed, a Linux system can be vulnerable to attacks as well, but the benefit here is the peer-review process - at least known loopholes in the system will be closed instantaneously, and pretty much are every day - there have been numerous exploits by which a normal user can gain elevated access, but these issues vanish as quickly as they are found. With systems like Windows, who knows what's there? New vulnerabilities are discovered and exploited every day in the form of even more trojans and worms. Yes, attackers might move their focus to Linux, but they have essentially the same tools you have, and if there are hackers on both sides, no one really has the advantage.

The Chinese government has the Windows source, does the US too? I think not, and I think that being on an equal footing is important.

haqking
April 4th, 2012, 09:22 PM
I think accepting that such if a petition is not useful is accepting defeat - we might as well give up and forget about Bug #

Defeat ?

Did i miss the war of pushing open source onto the world ?

Its too expensive for them, legacy issues, document collaboration, training, change of policies and procedures, user level restriction (cant beat group policy) ad nauseum ad infinitum

A petition is about as useful as voting ;-)

Peace

manzdagratiano
April 4th, 2012, 09:41 PM
Did i miss the war of pushing open source onto the world ?


Yes. In Ubuntu Land, this war goes by the name of Bug #1. I think it is very much real.

Also, I believe there is an organization by the name of FSF, which strives towards this goal every day. In fact, if this war had not started with the launch of the GNU project, we would all be typing from very different OSes right now (and who knows what else - the butterfly effect).



A petition is about as useful as voting ;-)


I realize the fun here, but that is really bad philosophy - individual dynamics influences group dynamics. The individual votes, but the mass elects. If you abstain from voting, you essentially make it easier for someone unworthy to win - step by step. Droplets make the ocean and what not and all that jazz...

forrestcupp
April 5th, 2012, 03:15 PM
I think accepting that such a petition is not useful is accepting defeat - we might as well give up and forget about Bug #1 and the like. After all, there were petitions against SOPA and PIPA which prevented them from passing! (granted they were backed by corporate power). As a community oriented towards the development and promotion of Ubuntu and GNU/Linux as a whole, I believe we need to keep trying - maybe someday we shall make a dent.
Most of us probably feel like SOPA and PIPA were more significant to our personal lives than trying to force people to use Linux.

And I think you have the wrong idea about Bug #1.

What should happen:
1. A majority of the PCs for sale should include only free software like Ubuntu.
2. Ubuntu should be marketed in a way such that its amazing features and benefits would be apparent and known by all.
3. The system shall become more and more user friendly as time passes.It's not about trying to force people to use Linux. It's about making Ubuntu so awesome and readily available that people want to use it. The minute you force someone to use Ubuntu is when you take away their freedom. And I thought it was all supposed to be about "freedom".

angryfirelord
April 5th, 2012, 05:20 PM
Germany already tried that and it didn't work out for them: http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/german-open-source-experiment-things-not-going-plan

Just use what works. I'd argue that security exploits are the result of poor security protocols. Linux isn't bulletproof out of the box, you'll still need to lock things down like you do in Windows. (The only one that probably is would be OpenBSD)

Yes. In Ubuntu Land, this war goes by the name of Bug #1. I think it is very much real.

Also, I believe there is an organization by the name of FSF, which strives towards this goal every day. In fact, if this war had not started with the launch of the GNU project, we would all be typing from very different OSes right now (and who knows what else - the butterfly effect).

Why is it a "war"? Seriously, it's just an operating system.

CharlesA
April 5th, 2012, 05:25 PM
Moved to recurring. It's come up before.

whatthefunk
April 5th, 2012, 05:34 PM
And I thought it was all supposed to be about "freedom".
Ahhh...Americans and freedom. What is this freedom you talk about?
Can you move your side bar thingy without installing additional software? Not free.

forrestcupp
April 5th, 2012, 10:05 PM
Can you move your side bar thingy without installing additional software? Not free.
Some people might opine that that is more free than having to reprogram the code to do the same thing. ;)

manzdagratiano
April 6th, 2012, 07:52 AM
And I think you have the wrong idea about Bug #1.
It's not about trying to force people to use Linux. It's about making Ubuntu so awesome and readily available that people want to use it. The minute you force someone to use Ubuntu is when you take away their freedom. And I thought it was all supposed to be about "freedom".

Nobody would like to see Ubuntu or GNU/Linux be "forced" upon the masses - forcing would only serve to replace one tyrant (Microsoft) by another (us, in that event).

I never said Bug #1 is about trying to force people to use Linux anyway - I completely agree with said philosophy! But this Bug is a mission at the very least, if not a war... And the fact that the government should move to GNU/Linux is not something I would like to see for my personal gag-reel, but is something that is logically beneficial - at least in the long term - for reasons I have already iterated here.

Making Ubuntu awesome enough for people to want to use it is not enough - it already IS awesome enough. It is breaking this monopoly that Microsoft commands that is the issue - the vendor lock-in stating they cannot sell empty laptops/dual-boot laptops, etc etc etc. Microsoft made it such that if IBM were to sell Windows machines, they could not install OS/2 - their own software - on their own machines. If people see nothing but Microsoft peddled out as the standard, they would never switch to the alternative, no matter how awesome, since it is not the `standard'.

Asking the Government to move to a level playing field is a logical step - at least a large chunk that follow the news will hear about such a thing, and then wonder "why did they do so? There must be a reason" - it's not about forcing people to use Linux, it's about opening their eyes to see that Linux exists!

manzdagratiano
April 6th, 2012, 08:00 AM
Sorry for double-posting, but this deserved its own reply.


Ahhh...Americans and freedom. What is this freedom you talk about?
Can you move your side bar thingy without installing additional software? Not free.

Maybe not in Unity yes - Unity itself is not obligated to give you this option of moving the sidebar - the devs make this stuff and give it away for free, so they give to you what they feel is best.

But if one doesn't like it, one can at least do the following with complete freedom:

Install Blackbox/Openbox/Ratpoison; install a custom panel (tint2/trayer), write a config file to place it wherever you want, and voila! You have a custom side bar wherever you want, all with free software! (I already do, besides Unity).

Don't like tint2/trayer and want a launcher like the Unity sidebar? Install Enlightenment as your DE, with its iBar - a near-perfect replacement.

That is freedom. Freedom not just to be able to change the source-code, which almost no mere end-user does, but freedom also of choice - choice to obtain what you want how you want it.

forrestcupp
April 6th, 2012, 02:50 PM
I never said Bug #1 is about trying to force people to use Linux anyway - I completely agree with said philosophy! But this Bug is a mission at the very least, if not a war... And the fact that the government should move to GNU/Linux is not something I would like to see for my personal gag-reel, but is something that is logically beneficial - at least in the long term - for reasons I have already iterated here.I don't believe that bug was the start of a war, but a motivation to propel Ubuntu to new levels. Word it how you want, but pushing a petition is a means to try to force someone into doing something.

Do you realize how big and complex the US government is, and how much it would take to switch everything over to Linux? It's not going to be so simple as backing up their Word documents and having everyone learn how to use LibreOffice instead. And you'd better hope nobody in the US government uses MS Access. It would cost a lot in retraining everyone to use, administrate, and maintain systems. It would cost the taxpayers an untold amount in manpower hours of not just installing Linux, but changing how all of the databases, networks, etc. work. It would pretty much shut the government down during all of this changeover and testing. It would be hard enough for an office to change over, but we're talking about the US government, which is a giant monster.

About security, do you really think that people can't hack Linux? They don't hack Linux because nobody important uses it. They don't give a rat's backside about creating trojans and malware for an OS that a relatively few number of geeks use. If the US government switched to Linux, people would be all over it in no time.


Making Ubuntu awesome enough for people to want to use it is not enough - it already IS awesome enough.Ubuntu is awesome, but it is not "awesome enough". If it were awesome enough, it would be so great that everyone would be moved to get rid of what they have that already works and replace it with this thing that is so obviously better that it's worth the time and effort. Ubuntu is "awesome enough" for you and me, but not for the masses. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to be so awesome that people like my grandma would be willing to give up all of their windows-only software and setup that they're familiar with.

Also, not every Ubuntu user even cares about Bug #1.

I'm not saying I'd be disappointed if the government used Linux. But realistically, I know it's not going to happen, and that after they already have this much invested in their setup, it's not necessarily a logical move.

manzdagratiano
April 6th, 2012, 03:46 PM
It would be hard enough for an office to change over, but we're talking about the US government, which is a giant monster.

About security, do you really think that people can't hack Linux? They don't hack Linux because nobody important uses it. They don't give a rat's backside about creating trojans and malware for an OS that a relatively few number of geeks use. If the US government switched to Linux, people would be all over it in no time.

Ubuntu is awesome, but it is not "awesome enough". If it were awesome enough, it would be so great that everyone would be moved to get rid of what they have that already works and replace it with this thing that is so obviously better that it's worth the time and effort. Ubuntu is "awesome enough" for you and me, but not for the masses. Honestly, I don't think it's possible to be so awesome that people like my grandma would be willing to give up all of their windows-only software and setup that they're familiar with.

Also, not every Ubuntu user even cares about Bug #1.



Moving over an entire government's platform is indeed a Leviathan task, and is not accomplished in a day's task, but it can be done starting out small - how about this approach? - Declare a public policy that the government intends to switch over to GNU/Linux. Then mark out a long-term plan - say 10 years if necessary - detailing how and in what concert who shall be switching in order that the government is not brought down; the NSA already used Linux - they developed SELinux after all. If some initial expertise is in place, one small unit/office at a time will, over a long period, achieve this goal - by no means will this be a trivial plan, but it is by no means impossible as well.

Just like a Highway reconstruction project - you do not replace all of the Highway in a day by shutting it down; you isolate small areas and you cause a slight inconvenience to traffic, but the flow of traffic continues nonetheless. Having lived in New Jersey, I can assure you I see this in implementation pretty much every day, and it works! - the small effects coalesce to form the big gigantic effect you eventually want to see.

Also, I duly concede Linux can be hacked - it would be absurd to think otherwise. The benefit here, though, as I said, is that of open ground. If someone can hack your system, you have the same tools to secure your system they used to hack it - at every level. With a closed source system, an attacker who can transparently see the internals of the system (the Chinese Government can, for instance, but it is not my statement that they are in the hacker's garb) definitely has the upper hand - they can exploit what you cannot fix!

And about awesomeness - I beg to differ. Ubuntu IS awesome enough. I have tested this myself - with my Father- and Mother-in-law, neither of who is a programmer or even a technology enthusiast, and would probably not even recognize the words Linux or GNU if they saw it referenced (only the word `Ubuntu' is familiar to them). They do not miss their Windows systems one bit, and they have with Ubuntu what they wanted with a functional system - it boots up fast, has a sleek interface, has all these free games you can download with two clicks, connects to printers and the like just by plugging the printer in, and keeps on running no matter what; their Windows desktop had become abominably slow, to the point they wanted change. Sure they may not be able to or even wish to diagnose advanced problems, but then again, if they had a problem with, say, the network card in Windows, they would not wish to do so there either.

People do not use free software not because it is not awesome, but because a monopolizing OS has managed to set itself up as a standard, and the scepticism that if one deviates from the standard suddenly things will "stop working" is all too powerful.

Ubuntu users may not care about Bug #1, but here we are a community that does, and it is up to us to see it through.

Remember BeOS? It exists in the modern avatar that is Haiku. At the time of its introduction, it was a revolutionary thing, offering a sleek interface like no other. It failed miserably, since Microsoft did not allow vendors to install it as a dual boot - even after BeOS had offered to give the vendors the licensing for free if they did so. Microsoft would not have vendors sell something that tampered with the Windows bootloader - they could install it on the system, but without tampering it they said. The result? When BeOS did ship installed on a partition that the end-user never saw because there was no way to get to it from the bootloader, it faded away as expected.

If marketing were fair play and monopolies did not exist, and then someone pointed out to me that Ubuntu and GNU/Linux are not awesome enough to give up the Windows systems, I would concede, and back off. But that is not the case here, and is likely not to be the case until a huge power challenges this monopoly.

We have tried rebuke in the form of antitrust laws with Microsoft - and we all know how that went. The only next thing possible is indifference - tell Microsoft that sure, they can exist and do what they want to, but the Government is not answerable to them, and will not play ball with something that does not offer the advantages a system with open ground offers.

forrestcupp
April 6th, 2012, 07:02 PM
Moving over an entire government's platform is indeed a Leviathan task, and is not accomplished in a day's task, but it can be done starting out small - how about this approach? - Declare a public policy that the government intends to switch over to GNU/Linux. Then mark out a long-term plan - say 10 years if necessary - detailing how and in what concert who shall be switching in order that the government is not brought down; the NSA already used Linux - they developed SELinux after all. If some initial expertise is in place, one small unit/office at a time will, over a long period, achieve this goal - by no means will this be a trivial plan, but it is by no means impossible as well.I'm not saying that it couldn't be done. And if it were done, the process you laid out is how it would have to be done. Other governments have successfully switched over, but I doubt if any of them are as huge as the US government.

I believe that if it were done like you say, it definitely could be done. I just highly doubt if you are going to convince the people that could make a difference that it would be worth it to go through that process, especially after they figured out how much it would cost to switch to this "free" OS.


And about awesomeness - I beg to differ. Ubuntu IS awesome enough. I have tested this myself - with my Father- and Mother-in-law, neither of who is a programmer or even a technology enthusiast, and would probably not even recognize the words Linux or GNU if they saw it referenced (only the word `Ubuntu' is familiar to them). They do not miss their Windows systems one bit, and they have with Ubuntu what they wanted with a functional system - it boots up fast, has a sleek interface, has all these free games you can download with two clicks, connects to printers and the like just by plugging the printer in, and keeps on running no matter what;Hey, I agree that it is awesome. That's why I use Ubuntu. But you have to keep in mind that there are a lot of people who just use their computers as a tool, and they don't care one ounce about what OS is on it. If it already works the way it comes, it's just not worth it to go through the hassle of installing a whole new OS and setting it up to work how their computer already worked with Windows. Ubuntu isn't any better at viewing Facebook and emails than Windows is, and that's all a lot of people care about.

I'm afraid that Ubuntu is always going to be an awesome, niche market. And it doesn't really matter to me what everyone else is using. I'm happy with what I am using.

dpny
April 6th, 2012, 07:10 PM
Remember BeOS? It exists in the modern avatar that is Haiku. At the time of its introduction, it was a revolutionary thing, offering a sleek interface like no other. It failed miserably, since Microsoft did not allow vendors to install it as a dual boot. . .

BeOS didn't fail because of any MS conspiracy theory. It failed miserably because it was feature-incomplete. At the time of its initial release it couldn't even print, and it was more of a slick developer preview than an OS. Apple considered using BeOS as the base for what would become OS X, but the combination of the massive amount of work necessary to complete it, combined with the price Gassée was asking (a decision he later admitted was a huge mistake) made it a non-starter. What if MS had allowed it to ship on PCs? People would've had the option between an OS which worked for day-to-day things and a cool-looking toy OS which didn't do much.

And, by the way, the US Government already uses Linux. In fact, the government, including the DoD, uses just about every conceivable OS under the sun, including various flavors of Linux, Windows, OS X, VMS, *nix, etc. When appropriate, the government is as flexible as any enormous bureaucracy can be.

manzdagratiano
April 6th, 2012, 08:54 PM
I'm afraid that Ubuntu is always going to be an awesome, niche market. And it doesn't really matter to me what everyone else is using. I'm happy with what I am using.


BeOS didn't fail because of any MS conspiracy theory. It failed miserably because it was feature-incomplete. At the time of its initial release it couldn't even print, and it was more of a slick developer preview than an OS. Apple considered using BeOS as the base for what would become OS X, but the combination of the massive amount of work necessary to complete it, combined with the price Gassée was asking (a decision he later admitted was a huge mistake) made it a non-starter. What if MS had allowed it to ship on PCs? People would've had the option between an OS which worked for day-to-day things and a cool-looking toy OS which didn't do much.


I personally too would have been fine with GNU/Linux being the niche market - for one, I think it brings about more freedom with regard to development, etc, if you are not answerable to a larger base; and second, I think hackers/geeks thrive on the element of having this air of the underground, in which the development of GNU/Linux began. However, that would be the case when the market played fair, and monopolies were rooted out - no matter how much progress we've made, we always seem to dangerously linger at the precipice where the existence of GNU/Linux on the desktop is being threatened (I firmly believe that GNU/Linux is always going to be all-pervasive, and forever the king of the server market) - even a few months ago, the Secure Boot business could have potentially locked out GNU/Linux from vendor-sold laptops - we all know how much they respect the user's freedom when it comes to versus doing business with Microsoft. But noise was made, and now it seems like the lock-in conditions have been relaxed (except for ARM).

Things like BeOS might not have been feature complete, and I am certain that if Steve Jobs' Unix based NEXTSTEP was not around, Mac OS X would have been based on BeOS. But promising projects like this are indeed stifled out if the market is not fair enough to give them a chance in the first place.

The point of this petition, and others like this, is to keep making noise. In all probability this petition will not see the light of day. But that should not stop us from standing up. In Quantum Mechanics, this is precisely equivalent to tunneling probability - when beta decay happens in a nucleus, the decaying particle should probabilistically not be allowed to escape the nucleus; but if millions of such events happen, the cumulative probability goes up, and the decay does happen. Likewise, if we keep making noise, someday something will change.

MisterGaribaldi
April 6th, 2012, 10:42 PM
Why would this be open to non U.S. citizens? I could completely understand if there was some noted expert that the White House wanted to reach out to, and they were a citizen of some other country, but as far as our Executive Branch taking any kind of marching orders from other countries... geez... that's kind of a breach of national sovereignty.

It's just like, I'm a U.S. citizen, and so I'm in no position whatsoever to tell the Queen of England what she should do, nor to lobby a MP to do a particular thing. I'm not a citizen of their country, and so I don't get any say in their internal affairs, nor should I.

forrestcupp
April 6th, 2012, 10:54 PM
We've seen from past discussions that the definition of "monopoly" is pretty subjective. Technically, Microsoft does not hold a monopoly because there are other viable options available. Nobody can argue that they don't have the upper hand, though. The problem is that they had the upper hand way before Linux was a viable option. They've had the upper hand since MS-DOS. Foundations and mentalities were already set, and I think because of that, it's not by some evil design that Linux doesn't have a chance in the desktop realm.

The funny thing is that tables are turned in the mobile realm. Now, the Linux-based Android has the upper hand in the mobile realm, and Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 don't have a chance because they're too late.

Even though I don't care a lot about Linux taking over the world, I wouldn't mind it either. I hope you find a lot of people who care enough to sign the petition.

haqking
April 6th, 2012, 10:59 PM
Why would this be open to non U.S. citizens? I could completely understand if there was some noted expert that the White House wanted to reach out to, and they were a citizen of some other country, but as far as our Executive Branch taking any kind of marching orders from other countries... geez... that's kind of a breach of national sovereignty.

It's just like, I'm a U.S. citizen, and so I'm in no position whatsoever to tell the Queen of England what she should do, nor to lobby a MP to do a particular thing. I'm not a citizen of their country, and so I don't get any say in their internal affairs, nor should I.

I wouldnt worry, neither the Queen or MP's do anything at all anyways ;-)

haqking
April 6th, 2012, 11:01 PM
I hope you find a lot of people who care enough to sign the petition.

well it has increased by 4 in 2 days so its well on its way ;-)

forrestcupp
April 6th, 2012, 11:05 PM
I wouldnt worry, neither the Queen or MP's do anything at all anyways ;-)She keeps her YouTube channel up pretty well.


well it has increased by 4 in 2 days so its well on its way ;-)
Lol.