PDA

View Full Version : This is insane, and scary



mmsmc
October 7th, 2011, 03:23 AM
rat brain flies flight simulator

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJxZEFEfjIg

simpleblue
October 7th, 2011, 04:05 AM
This is a joke,... right??

* sigh *

:(

sffvba[e0rt
October 7th, 2011, 06:03 AM
On a related note just saw this too. (http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/06/monkeys-control-virtual-arm-with-their-brains-may-herald-breakt/?a_dgi=aolshare_twitter)


404

mmsmc
October 7th, 2011, 08:06 PM
we dont have to worry about the bubonic plague anymore, we just have to be worried about being bombed by rats!

Linuxratty
October 8th, 2011, 12:05 AM
This is a joke,... right??

* sigh *

:(

Having had pet rats for years,reading this sort of thing always bothers me. They are astoundingly sweet,gentle creatures.

jonkiribati
October 9th, 2011, 09:33 AM
That's really amazing.

BeRoot ReBoot
October 9th, 2011, 10:37 AM
I don't get it, what's "insane" or "scary" about it? It shows we know how to make neurons perform generic computational tasks, which is pretty neat in and of itself, and has huge implications for both computing hardware and artificial intelligence development. Pretty neat if you ask me.

Paqman
October 9th, 2011, 11:28 AM
I don't get it, what's "insane" or "scary" about it?

"Insanely awesome"? "Scarily clever"?

They're doing amazing things breaking down the boundaries between brains and computers. The work being done on brain-computer interfaces could be one of the most important discoveries ever for disabled people, for example.

BeRoot ReBoot
October 9th, 2011, 12:06 PM
"Insanely awesome"? "Scarily clever"?

They're doing amazing things breaking down the boundaries between brains and computers. The work being done on brain-computer interfaces could be one of the most important discoveries ever for disabled people, for example.

I agree it's an amazing discovery/accomplishment with many potential practical applications. I was just confused by OP's choice of words.

Paqman
October 9th, 2011, 12:25 PM
I agree it's an amazing discovery/accomplishment with many potential practical applications. I was just confused by OP's choice of words.

I can imagine the whole "brain in a jar" angle would ook a few people out. It does come across as a little bit mad scientist. A lot of people feel really uneasy about anything involving merging meat and machines, even though it's obvious that's where we're heading in the future. After all, meat is just a special kind of machine.

I think they're just being wusses. I'll take an indestructible 100-ft tall robot body after this one wears out any day.

BeRoot ReBoot
October 9th, 2011, 01:17 PM
Oh come on, it isn't a "brain in a jar" by any measure, it's "a bunch of neurons on a chip". If they used some electronic hardware that emulates rat neurons, this wouldn't even make the news.

3rdalbum
October 9th, 2011, 03:07 PM
They also hooked it up to a PS3 so it can play Black Ops. The rat brain is quite a lot smarter than most console FPS fans too* ;)

* (just kidding)

azangru
October 9th, 2011, 03:08 PM
I don't get it. How do these cells learn? How are they rewarded for keeping the plane in the air and how are they punished for crushing the plane? What makes them care whether the plane flies or not?

Paqman
October 9th, 2011, 03:43 PM
Oh come on, it isn't a "brain in a jar" by any measure, it's "a bunch of neurons on a chip". If they used some electronic hardware that emulates rat neurons, this wouldn't even make the news.

I agree. I suspect many wouldn't.

ice60
October 9th, 2011, 03:51 PM
is the computer doing all the work and putting information through the neurons? because when i watched the video the other day they made it look like the neurons where thinking for themselves!

i'm pretty sure i know the answer. i haven't seen many rats driving cars recently, never mind flying planes lol.

BeRoot ReBoot
October 9th, 2011, 04:57 PM
I don't get it. How do these cells learn? How are they rewarded for keeping the plane in the air and how are they punished for crushing the plane? What makes them care whether the plane flies or not?

The same way your brain learns and accepts reward/punishment stimuli, in a much more specialised, case-by-case controlled environment. Think of it as taking a few thousand neurons from your prefrontal cortex, and wiring them to a chip that (crudely) immitates the way the rest of your brain would normally communicate with those neurons.

It isn't accurate, but for applications like narrow AI, it's way ahead of anything we can do purely in software.


is the computer doing all the work and putting information through the neurons? because when i watched the video the other day they made it look like the neurons where thinking for themselves!

Neurons are just as deterministic as computers. And I'm pretty sure they aren't "thinking" as we understand the term. "Thinking" (as in, possessing qualia, sentience, sapience, and everything else that comprises a conscious mind) is an emergent property that probably takes many millions of times the amount of neurons used in this experiment.

mmsmc
October 9th, 2011, 08:51 PM
I agree it's an amazing discovery/accomplishment with many potential practical applications. I was just confused by OP's choice of words.
i find it insane because it is amazing, i find it scary because we have no clue what our government, or private industries will do with this kind of technology

azangru
October 9th, 2011, 11:45 PM
The same way your brain learns and accepts reward/punishment stimuli, in a much more specialised, case-by-case controlled environment. Think of it as taking a few thousand neurons from your prefrontal cortex, and wiring them to a chip that (crudely) immitates the way the rest of your brain would normally communicate with those neurons.

It's mindboggling, really. It's hard enough to imagine how a chip can imitate the rest of the brain - it gets harder still when you take into account that they "digested" the brain - treated it with an enzyme to sever all the normal connections between the neurons. So what they get is basically a soup with clueless individual neurons that get attached to the chip and start forming a synaptic network on it. Under these circumstances, I can't imagine how you'll train them. My brain receives positive and negative stimuli from the sense organs to which it gets hardwired following a certain genetic program during embryonic development. In this rat brain soup scenario - how would neurons know that a particular electrical impulse generated by a plane crash means pain while another one means pleasure?

3rdalbum
October 10th, 2011, 05:10 AM
After I saw that video I became suspicious of this "research". There are a lot of unanswered questions about how the rat neurons are actually putting input into the computer and sensing what's on the monitor or sensing the data that the computer is sending back. There's about half a dozen other questions that make me think this research is bogus.

matt_symes
October 10th, 2011, 07:35 AM
After I saw that video I became suspicious of this "research". There are a lot of unanswered questions about how the rat neurons are actually putting input into the computer and sensing what's on the monitor or sensing the data that the computer is sending back. There's about half a dozen other questions that make me think this research is bogus.

So did i. I give short shrift to the majority of "information" i read on the Internet and, if it's important research, i always seek corroborative sources.

I'm not saying it's wrong, i would never just take a Youtube clip as my source of science information.

As it stands, i have too many unanswered questions about this research.

sdowney717
October 10th, 2011, 11:57 AM
interesting but computers are going to make processing power leaps.
I can not imagine brain cells doing any useful practical work outside of the brain when normal silicon is going to be so fast and so cheap.

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pressrelease/35358.wss

Such stacking would allow for dramatically higher levels of integration for information technology and consumer electronics applications. Processors could be tightly packed with memory and networking, for example, into a “brick” of silicon that would create a computer chip 1,000 times faster than today’s fastest microprocessor enabling more powerful smartphones, tablets, computers and gaming devices.