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jbicha
October 2nd, 2011, 02:11 AM
R&D started on Gnome 3. Although the new desktop is extremely different than what we’re aiming for, it looks extremely promising from a technical point of view and easy to modify and improve upon. We’re planning to do some R&D on Gnome 2 as well in order to assess the work involved in maintaining it within Linux Mint. Of course, all you probably want to know is whether Mint 12 will come with Gnome 3, Gnome 2 or something else.. and I’m afraid you’ll need to wait a little more before we can tell you for sure. At this stage it might go either way, or it’s possible we might support both versions of Gnome going forward. We’re aware of what the community wants, we’ve got a precise idea of what we want to achieve, and based on the technicalities, and confidence we have in these two technologies, not only now, but for the future, we’ll take our time and make the right decision.

From http://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=1816

Just some speculation:

The Mint devs have a few difficulties brewing. My impression is that Mint users don't want Unity or GNOME Shell but they probably want the updated apps in Oneiric. I guess GNOME Fallback might work once the indicators get ported to it (but that didn't make it into Oneiric). Also, what's going to happen when Debian testing gets the GNOME 3 dump in the coming weeks? I don't know if the Mint Debian users were expecting that.

8_Bit
October 2nd, 2011, 03:56 AM
I don't understand the point of sticking with GNOME 2 at all.

GTK3 offers many new benefits and improvements to the toolkit, regardless of what shell you use.

What they should really do is switch to GNOME 3 but use a different shell. That way, users get the benefit of the GTK3 improvements and on-going security updates while also getting the same old interface they know and love. I think that would be the best option to go with.

Do the Linux Mint people really have enough resources to maintain two entire toolkits at once? I doubt it.

Chauncellor
October 2nd, 2011, 04:32 AM
While I have no quarrel with Mint I've always found them to have such bizarre standards for desktops.

Whatever, to each their own.

thatguruguy
October 2nd, 2011, 04:32 AM
I don't understand the point of sticking with GNOME 2 at all.

GTK3 offers many new benefits and improvements to the toolkit, regardless of what shell you use.

What they should really do is switch to GNOME 3 but use a different shell. That way, users get the benefit of the GTK3 improvements and on-going security updates while also getting the same old interface they know and love. I think that would be the best option to go with.

Do the Linux Mint people really have enough resources to maintain two entire toolkits at once? I doubt it.

Agreed. Especially with all the hacks that have to be done to make gtk2 work with 64-bit, it's time to let it die.

fantab
October 2nd, 2011, 04:38 AM
Eventually they will have to opt for UNITY and or GNOME SHELL with GNOME3. As far as their Debian Edition is concerned there are already issues, especially with user customizations. Though they are 'managing' them quite well for the time being.


Do the Linux Mint people really have enough resources to maintain two entire toolkits at once? I doubt it. Even if they have there is no point in doing so since GTK3 is so much better in so many ways. "The moving finger having writ moves on". But then they are "aware of what the community wants, we’ve got a precise idea of what we want to achieve, and based on the technicalities, and confidence we have in these two technologies, not only now, but for the future, we’ll take our time and make the right decision."

LINUX MINT is, in my opinion, the easiest Distro for the new Linux convert and I sincerely hope they make the right choice backed by good decisions.

vasa1
October 2nd, 2011, 04:45 AM
Shouldn't this thread be relocated? Seems to have very little to do with Ubuntu 11.10.

cariboo907
October 2nd, 2011, 05:41 AM
For now, I'll let the thread stay where it is, I'll have a look at it when I get back from work in the morning, and make a decision then.

jbicha
October 2nd, 2011, 06:17 AM
Oops, I guess this is more a topic for Community Cafe, then?

madjr
October 2nd, 2011, 06:58 AM
mint wants a windows like experience (one panel at the bottom and a big menu) and that's not going to change.

but they dont want kde as default, they want gnome.

it will be interesting to see how they do it.

i dont know, they would probably just use AWN in panel mode or something like that... (which wouldn't actually be that bad)

or maybe dockbarX (http://www.webupd8.org/2011/09/dockbarx-live-window-previews-finally.html) in dock mode?

any other ideas?

well i just know the mint12 dev cycle wont be boring :D

lucazade
October 2nd, 2011, 07:15 AM
Mint should merge back with Ubuntu... we can add a greenish wallpaper and iconset for mint lovers. Are there any other differences?

wgarcia
October 2nd, 2011, 08:37 AM
The main reason is IMHO the same as the reason Canonical is supporting Unity and not Gnome Shell: have complete autonomy and create own identity with respect to appearance, and use a solid infrastructure behind supported by upstream development. So in my opinion for sure they will move eventually towards Gnome 3, and it would be interesting if they support a third desktop shell a part from Gnome Shell and Unity.

ventrical
October 2nd, 2011, 09:56 AM
I will be most willing to beta test it because Mint has always been a rock solid mirror of Ubuntu. I do not think Gnome 3 will prevail in this case , but , perhaps Xfce desktop or even Cario. I beta tested Fedora 15. G3 worked great . but it didn't make any sense. It was nice to look at but I never got any work done. If they do use Unity I think it will be safe to bet that they will have ironed out all the bugs first. And yes.. Mint is definitly a distro that is education in helping converts switch to Linux based systems.

teachop
October 2nd, 2011, 10:25 AM
Mint is definitly a distro that is education in helping converts switch to Linux based systems.

Yes to that, set it up for somebody and go....

Mint = Mom, tech challenged offspring, etc.

Ubuntu in "classic Gnome" = Co-workers (now will be Xubuntu?)

Arch = Self and pals in embedded development

Gnome Shell and Unity are not a fit for anybody in my immediate "tech support crowd" unfortunately.

wgarcia
October 2nd, 2011, 10:39 AM
ventrical, when I say Gnome 3 I mean the infrastructure over which Gnome Shell and Unity, or as a matter of fact Gnome fallback, run. The switch to the new Gnome 3 infrastructure, for the arguments given by other contributions to this debate, seems unavoidable. Also if xfce is used as the desktop interface you need these libraries to run the latest versions of all the Gnome applications.

BigSilly
October 2nd, 2011, 10:56 AM
I don't understand the point of sticking with GNOME 2 at all.

GTK3 offers many new benefits and improvements to the toolkit, regardless of what shell you use.

What they should really do is switch to GNOME 3 but use a different shell. That way, users get the benefit of the GTK3 improvements and on-going security updates while also getting the same old interface they know and love. I think that would be the best option to go with.

Do the Linux Mint people really have enough resources to maintain two entire toolkits at once? I doubt it.

Yes I agree. I don't know why they don't take Unity or Gnome shell and just create a Mint version of it. But the problem they are having is the vocal detractors who are demanding Gnome 2 still.

philinux
October 2nd, 2011, 11:28 AM
Moved to Cafe.

Copper Bezel
October 2nd, 2011, 12:14 PM
mint wants a windows like experience (one panel at the bottom and a big menu) and that's not going to change.

but they dont want kde as default, they want gnome.

it will be interesting to see how they do it.

i dont know, they would probably just use AWN in panel mode or something like that... (which wouldn't actually be that bad)

or maybe http://www.webupd8.org/2011/09/dockbarx-live-window-previews-finally.html in dock mode?

any other ideas?

well i just know the mint12 dev cycle wont be boring :D

Yeah, AWN with DockBarX and a port of the Mint Menu would be 98% Windows 7. Moreso than KDE's panel is.

Dry Lips
October 2nd, 2011, 12:17 PM
I was a bit annoyed the other day when I found out that Mint Xfce
now only is available for the Debian edition. I was going to install
Mint for my sister, but I've had a few issues with the Debian edition,
so actually I ended up not installing mint at all.

I want Ubuntu based Mint-Xfce back! :mad:](*,):evil:

thatguruguy
October 2nd, 2011, 01:42 PM
I was a bit annoyed the other day when I found out that Mint Xfce
now only is available for the Debian edition. I was going to install
Mint for my sister, but I've had a few issues with the Debian edition,
so actually I ended up not installing mint at all.

I want Ubuntu based Mint-Xfce back! :mad:](*,):evil:



That's swell. However, I'd suggest that there are probably better places to make this point. Like, I dunno, maybe the Mint forum.

Dry Lips
October 2nd, 2011, 02:10 PM
That's swell. However, I'd suggest that there are probably better places to make this point. Like, I dunno, maybe the Mint forum.



Yes, I guess you're right... But I'm not a member of the Mint forums,
and I'm not sure I want to create an account over there just in order
to complain, you know what I mean?

The OP's initial post was about Gnome 2 vs Gnome 3, but I think it's
also interesting to see that they're leaving the Ubuntu based Xfce for
Debian Testing... Does this mean they are eventually leaving Ubuntu
for good?

Now, I guess the Mint Devs probably aren't reading this, but is this
move really a wise decision?

smellyman
October 2nd, 2011, 03:22 PM
I was a bit annoyed the other day when I found out that Mint Xfce
now only is available for the Debian edition. I was going to install
Mint for my sister, but I've had a few issues with the Debian edition,
so actually I ended up not installing mint at all.

I want Ubuntu based Mint-Xfce back! :mad:](*,):evil:



Just go Xubuntu. Not like they are much different.

polardude1983
October 2nd, 2011, 03:24 PM
Mint should merge back with Ubuntu... we can add a greenish wallpaper and iconset for mint lovers. Are there any other differences?

Although I am not a Mint user, there are differences.

Mint Menu
Mint Backup
Update Manager

Some of the default settings are nicer and yes these make a difference. First impressions.

Default Software
Flash, java, codecs installed by default
default theme

Also Mint listens to its community more then ubuntu will ever.

The biggest difference in a lot of distros is the way that the people behind it go with their distro.

I like and use Ubuntu, so don't get this post wrong. Just stating the differences. Its more then just a green theme.

IWantFroyo
October 2nd, 2011, 03:37 PM
Although I am not a Mint user, there are differences.

Mint Menu
Mint Backup
Update Manager

Some of the default settings are nicer and yes these make a difference. First impressions.

Default Software
Flash, java, codecs installed by default
default theme

Also Mint listens to its community more then ubuntu will ever.

The biggest difference in a lot of distros is the way that the people behind it go with their distro.

I like and use Ubuntu, so don't get this post wrong. Just stating the differences. Its more then just a green theme.

You forgot the fabled and loved Custom Mint Search. :roll:

I agree. LM and Ubuntu are very different. Probably the most noticeable differences are the Mint Menu, and the stubbornness with Gnome 2.

thatguruguy
October 2nd, 2011, 03:41 PM
Yes, I guess you're right... But I'm not a member of the Mint forums,
and I'm not sure I want to create an account over there just in order
to complain, you know what I mean?

The OP's initial post was about Gnome 2 vs Gnome 3, but I think it's
also interesting to see that they're leaving the Ubuntu based Xfce for
Debian Testing... Does this mean they are eventually leaving Ubuntu
for good?

Now, I guess the Mint Devs probably aren't reading this, but is this
move really a wise decision?

Yeah, but complaining here seems counter-productive. Are you complaining just to complain, or do you want an actual solution?

And as far as creating an account just to complain on the Mint forum, I don't see why you wouldn't. It seems that people create accounts on this forum just to complain all the time. Spend some time in the Testimonials sub-forum, and you'll see exactly what I mean.

Dry Lips
October 2nd, 2011, 04:30 PM
Yeah, but complaining here seems counter-productive. Are you complaining just to complain, or do you want an actual solution?

And as far as creating an account just to complain on the Mint forum, I don't see why you wouldn't. It seems that people create accounts on this forum just to complain all the time. Spend some time in the Testimonials sub-forum, and you'll see exactly what I mean.
All right then, you've got me... Of course I do want a solution,
I was just letting out a little steam ;) I'm taking this issue right
over to the Mint forums... I've already got accounts at the Fedora
and Kubuntu forums, so I guess one more membership won't hurt.

I just hope they won't throw bricks at me :P

Dry Lips
October 2nd, 2011, 04:37 PM
I've had a look at the Mint forums, and this is what they write
about ditching the Ubuntu based Xfce-edition:


I understand that a few people don't like the mainstream software selection and/or the switch to LMDE, but it was necessary to do this change and we won't be supporting Xfce on top of Ubuntu in the future. On the Mint 10 release cycle, we almost ran short and skipped this edition entirely. We simply don't have the manpower and the resources to guarantee the maintenance and so it's important for us to switch it to a rolling series and out of the release cycle. It also makes a lot of sense from a strategic point of view. It's likely Fluxbox and LXDE will switch as well.http://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?f=110&t=71567

Complaining probably won't help that much since manpower is the problem here...
*Sigh* :-(

MG&TL
October 2nd, 2011, 04:42 PM
Mint should merge back with Ubuntu... we can add a greenish wallpaper and iconset for mint lovers. Are there any other differences?

Couldn't we say we all should merge back into Debian? Just a thought.

reyfer
October 2nd, 2011, 04:53 PM
It has always seemed so funny to me, that the people that criticize Windows users unwillingness to experience Linux use the "they are too scared of change, they don't like change" argument, are the same people that cry "I want GNOME 2 back, I don't want GNOME 3 or Unity"

kaldor
October 2nd, 2011, 04:55 PM
Mint should merge back with Ubuntu... we can add a greenish wallpaper and iconset for mint lovers. Are there any other differences?

They no longer include codecs on the CD either.

MooPi
October 2nd, 2011, 05:09 PM
Or Gnome will be forked as Linus asked not so long ago. How did he refer to it
“Could you also fork gnome, and support a gnome-2 environment? I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3.”That will make Mints predicament evaporate.

Copper Bezel
October 2nd, 2011, 05:33 PM
That was a sarcastic comment in response to another unnecessary forking. Context is key. = /

viperdvman
October 3rd, 2011, 12:01 AM
I too am waiting to see what Linux Mint 12 has in store, especially with GNOME 3 out and Ubuntu completing its switch to Unity. Are they going to stick with GNOME 2 as long as possible? Are they going to do something different with GNOME 3? Whichever direction they go, I hope it works great for the distro. (I was talking default DE, by the way, not their other DE's or their Debian base)

I like playing around with Linux Mint too, and there's parts of it I really like. If I hadn't already chosen to run Ubuntu, I might've gone with Linux Mint. I like both distros that much.

XubuRoxMySox
October 3rd, 2011, 12:33 AM
Mint 9 Xfce is awesome (and still supported for nearly another year), based on Xubu 10.04. When support for it ends, I'm confident that the next Xubu LTS (12.04) will be every bit as awesome, and adding one's favorite Mint tools to Xubu (from the Main Edition's repos, still Ubuntu-based) will be a simple matter.

el_koraco
October 3rd, 2011, 01:12 AM
It should be easy enough to make an extension for the Mint menu in Gnome 3. The users have made a Mint theme for GS. Mint isn't so much about customizability, but rather about making defaults they think are better. So GS would fit them good.

cariboo907
October 3rd, 2011, 05:36 AM
For the die-hard gnome 2 users, it wouldn't be that hard for Mint to make gnome-session-fallback the default desktop, they just need the people that wrote most of the applets to port them to GTK-3.

ninjaaron
October 3rd, 2011, 05:55 AM
For the die-hard gnome 2 users, it wouldn't be that hard for Mint to make gnome-session-fallback the default desktop, they just need the people that wrote most of the applets to port them to GTK-3.

Exactly what I was thinking. Gnome 3 is a lot more than Gnome Shell, and it has numerous technical advantages over Gnome 2.x.

Even if they based whatever they do on Gnome Shell rather than the fall-back mode, it's extensable enought that they could keep a similar enviroment to what they already have. Gnome Shell can be anything with a little javascript magic. Throw a little compiz in there and you're good to go.

madjr
October 3rd, 2011, 07:45 AM
Exactly what I was thinking. Gnome 3 is a lot more than Gnome Shell, and it has numerous technical advantages over Gnome 2.x.

Even if they based whatever they do on Gnome Shell rather than the fall-back mode, it's extensable enought that they could keep a similar enviroment to what they already have. Gnome Shell can be anything with a little javascript magic. Throw a little compiz in there and you're good to go.

gnome-shell and compiz?

it would probably be a lot of work to get a "windows like desktop" with gnome-shell ...

better just use awn and you're done (at least with the lack of man power what else can you do that's nice looking, simple and is similar to windows?).

jbicha
October 3rd, 2011, 07:55 AM
GNOME Shell, Mutter, and gjs are extremely linked together. We had a bunch of crashes during Oneiric's development because we didn't have the alpha versions matching exactly. It's similar to Unity 3D and Compiz being developed together.

It's simply not possible to run GNOME Shell with Compiz and there's no reason to try, nor would it be worth the effort to singlehandedly port Unity to Mutter.

Olle Wiklund
October 3rd, 2011, 12:07 PM
... Linux mint is, in my opinion, the easiest distro for the new linux convert and i sincerely hope they make the right choice backed by good decisions.

+1

BBQdave
October 3rd, 2011, 06:16 PM
For the die-hard gnome 2 users, it wouldn't be that hard for Mint to make gnome-session-fallback the default desktop, they just need the people that wrote most of the applets to port them to GTK-3.

+1

Probably most efficient use of Mint's resources, and LMDE (given it's base is debian) would allow for more development time between releases.

aura7
October 3rd, 2011, 11:09 PM
I really like Gnome 2 more than Gnome 3 as it is more easier to use and I am quite adapted to it.

Looking forward to Mint's long term release if they stick with Gnome 2

ninjaaron
October 4th, 2011, 12:36 AM
gnome-shell and compiz?

it would probably be a lot of work to get a "windows like desktop" with gnome-shell ...

better just use awn and you're done (at least with the lack of man power what else can you do that's nice looking, simple and is similar to windows?).

Or Compiz with the fallback. People already have Compiz working with Gnome Shell, so it's not that crazy.

And I'm not talking about the cube. Whenever I mention compiz people always think I need some crazy effects. I actually turn most of the effects off when I use compiz (no shadows, animations, wobbles, cubes or anything). Compiz is just an extremely versatile WM that can be used to mimic the behavior of almost any other system you want, including Windows 7 and OSX. It can give the kind of DE experience that most users will be comfortable with already. Heck, even Unity just boils down to a compiz plugin (which can be turned off with a check box), and it's already running on Gnome 3.

And as far as using Awn for the panel, there are already plugins to move the gnome-shell bar to the bottom and replace the action button with a menu. Both Compiz and Gnome Shell are versatile and extensible. They can be made into anything a user or community wants. This is by design. It can be made to do everything gnome-panel can do and much more.

thatguruguy
October 4th, 2011, 12:44 AM
Heck, even Unity just boils down to a compiz plugin (which can be turned off with a check box), and it's already running on Gnome 3.

I just want to pause here a moment and bask in the awesomeness of the truth of that statement.

What a truly brilliant design decision that was, really.

OK, back to the thread.

ninjaaron
October 4th, 2011, 01:03 AM
I just want to pause here a moment and bask in the awesomeness of the truth of that statement.

What a truly brilliant design decision that was, really.

OK, back to the thread.

fo' rlz. I was actually using 11.04 for a while booting to the normal session, but with the Unity plugin disabled and some other dock and launcher as my interface. (As it turned out, Unity was actually lighter and more functional than the system I came up with, so I went back to it, though I still think the dock sucks, compared to a real dock. I'm more of a type-to-seach launcher kind of guy, so a crappy dock isn't a deal-breaker for me).

jbicha
October 4th, 2011, 03:46 AM
I really like Gnome 2 more than Gnome 3 as it is more easier to use and I am quite adapted to it.

Looking forward to Mint's long term release if they stick with Gnome 2

Yes, Mint has quite a few vocal GNOME 2 users, but GNOME 2 is a dead end. There will be no more releases (bugfix or feature) for GNOME 2. But GNOME 3 can be made to sort of look like GNOME 2.

By the way, even Windows 8 is killing the traditional Start menu.