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kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 01:30 PM
Since this became the go-to thread for Lubuntu dev I felt the need to update image location :)

Look here:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing

Many thanks to phillw for getting this done.

Original post below the break ;)

********************************************

It took a bit of searching, but I found the Lubuntu alpha1 images here:

http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/

The torrent had no seeders though.

Major edit; I'd not yet been subscribed to the mailing list (I am now) but Julien Lavergne had posted a very brief release note:


A quick mail to announcement the availability of Lubuntu Oneiric Alpha
1. This ISO is just a snapshot of current development, there is no big
noticeable changes.

Current changes and know issues :
- Build with "install recommends" by default
- No langpack included
- Include apt-xapian-index, which should be removed later
- gnome-power-manager may crash
- GTK3 applications are ugly

This ISO is primary for developers which want to test the current result
of the ISO, and testing curent behavior with the GTK2/GTK3 mix, and the
switch to install recommends by default. You can also start testing
Oneiric in the VM by installing it with this ISO.

No need to heavily test the ISO, we are going to switch the build
system, and nothing really new is in (no updates of LXDE and related
packages).

Download : http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/lubuntu-oneiric-alpha1.iso
Torrent :
http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/lubuntu-oneiric-alpha1.iso.torrent
md5sum : http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/md5sum.txt

dino99
June 3rd, 2011, 01:52 PM
Thanks, bookmarked :)

as im tired about gnome3 new design, i've installed Lubuntu-desktop & made some tweaks. But i cant find, sadly, a Lubuntu dedicated forum :(

kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 02:39 PM
No Lubuntu forum yet, we just have to use these forums. You can set the "lubuntu" prefix on threads in the main support categories.

kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 03:16 PM
The Lubuntu Alpha1 Live CD boots to a tty, so you have to type startx to get the DE.

Edit: Using 'startx' sort of breaks things. It's much better to use either:

sudo service lxdm start

Or:

sudo /etc/init.d/lxdm restart

Otherwise the only serious thing I noticed was the lack of restart or shutdown buttons.

Edit #2: using the commands above instead of using "startx" seem to solve that problem!

I'm installing now so I'll have to pick around for more bugs post-installation and puzzle a bit about what package(s) to file bugs against. I'm thinking just the meta-package "lubuntu-desktop" if I can't think of anything more appropriate.

Not sure what version of LXDE this is but it appears to be a pure LXDE default theme. Rather ugly IMHO but simple and intuitive to use.

Edit #3: using one of the correct commands above to start lxdm result in a fairly correct Lubuntu desktop, but it's Alpha1. The GTK+ 3 changes haven't even begun yet.

kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 03:44 PM
One more bug so far, upon completing the installation I was asked whether to restart or keep using the Live DE as usual. I chose to restart and after cycling down the CD ejected as expected but the screen was just blank.

So I removed the CD, closed the tray and hit enter, but nothing happened. I tried some common key combos but finally had to use the reset button on my box to complete the restart.

I've now just updated the controlling grub so we'll see what she looks like in a few minutes ;)

Then on to bug filing.

kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 05:09 PM
It booted just fine. Something I noticed from lxdm (the login screen) is that it boots the "default" DE, but the list of options includes "lubuntu" and selecting it presents the better looking Lubuntu DE. That is of course just my opinion.

It's so early in development that it's unrealistic to expect things to be anywhere near polished and I need to further explore the ins and outs of Lubuntu/LXDE.

I think I'll try Xchat/IRC again, in the past I've just not been able to keep up with it though.

I need to study the lxpanel a lot :)

kansasnoob
June 3rd, 2011, 06:56 PM
I posted a query at "lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net":


First a brief intro. I'm Erick Brunzell at Launchpad, Lance at iso-testing (in which I've participated for over 3 years), and "kansasnoob" at Ubuntu forums.

I'm quite glad to see that Lubuntu will soon become an official member of the Ubuntu family. I particularly look forward to the day that Lubuntu's images are included in Ubuntu's iso-testing.

Anyway I obtained the Lubuntu Oneiric Alpha1 image here:

http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/

And naturally I encountered a few minor bugs. To expect any less this early in a dev cycle is insane, but I still felt they should be reported. The specific bugs are:

1) The Lubuntu Alpha1 Live CD boots to a tty, so you have to type startx to get the DE.

2) The default DE lacks restart or shutdown buttons.

3) Upon completing the installation I was asked whether to restart or keep using the Live DE as usual. I chose to restart and the CD ejected as expected but the screen was just blank. So I removed the CD, closed the tray and hit enter, but nothing happened. I tried some common key combos but finally had to use the reset button on my box to complete the restart.

Of course none of these are serious or unexpected this early in a dev cycle, but I wanted to get my feet wet checking out bug filing against Lubuntu anyway, and I'm a bit puzzled.

I'm used to iso-testing pure Ubuntu so all of the above bugs would be filed against 'casper' but I know these bugs were not present when I tested Ubuntu so I thought I should possibly file them against the meta-package 'lubuntu-desktop' but that's a no-go.

I'm just wondering if the meta-package 'lubuntu-desktop' should be added to launchpad as a bug filing option?

How stupid was that?

teh603
June 3rd, 2011, 09:54 PM
I'm watching Lubuntu as well, but its hard to find the releases since the forum people don't sticky the download links in the forums anymore. =/

phillw
June 4th, 2011, 03:09 PM
Hi guys, LTNS.

I consider my wrists slapped!


hiyas kansasnoob,

firstly, great to see you - I don't get onto the forum areas as much as I used to (or should do). The A1 is still built the 'old way' and is, afaik, just a toe stretching session for the new kernel to be included. There has been some work the apps done, along with deciding which applications we include by default. Pcman has a new pcmanfm out in the wild for us to break. Hooks for apport are on the TODO list and are being added, but the 1,000 dedicated developers we have ..... err, well, I may have over estimated by 998 are awaiting getting their teeth into the 'official' iso building system. This should be done for a2.

The general page for 11.10 is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers

Progress on the apport hooks can be found at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO

If you, or any of the testers on the main area would like to keep abreast of what Lubuntu is up to, please doe feel free to add the mailing list to your cluttered boxes (We don't send that many out!) https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/GettingInvolved has the one click link to get the lubuntu discussions.

Please give my regards to Ranch Hand, I must pop on and find out what better name he has for 11.10 - I will make a point of letting the testing area know when A2 comes out, but the a1 had little in the way of changes.

Apart from anything else, it will be nice to 'touch base' with all you great people again.
For A2, I will try to get a set of notes together so you good people know where Lubuntu is headed for 11.10, as it is the precursor for 12.04 (LTS) we need to get as many bugs ironed out as possible during the 11.10 cycle (errr, you may recall Grub2 coming out in 9.10 :P ).
Lubuntu is also now popping it's toe into the water for accessibility, but realistically this is a couple of cycles away - we simply do not have enough devs. Accessibility could do themselves a favour, but we do have a meeting coming up under Jono Bacon to allow us to ask questions. It is times like this I miss Ranch Hand's 'say it as it is' attitude, although JM one of our devs is no shrinking violet. I'm sure he and Ranch Hand would get on great :P

My kindest regards to you and the rest of the testers,

Phill.
P.S. - Now go and dig me up a spare developer or two :D
@ Julien and JM - if there is any thing factually incorrect, please correct me.

I will keep you all up to date - I promise!

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
June 4th, 2011, 05:51 PM
I'm glad to see you around. I did read the PM's from both you and Chris, I just haven't had time to respond properly :(

My greatest concern was just figuring out how to properly file and assign bugs to "lubuntu-desktop", but in retrospect the one's I mentioned are either casper or ubiquity bugs so I'd assume it'd be proper to file against those packages with an explanation (including comparison of behavior between Ubuntu and Lubuntu).

However, I do still wonder if the meta-package "lubuntu-desktop" shouldn't be somehow added to possible bug filing options :confused:

When Lubuntu is included in iso-testing I'll shift a large part of my focus onto it, but naturally I'll have a learning curve to tackle ;)

The new ubiquity is a challenge within itself but hopefully this month I should get a router up and running so I'll be able to test on at least two PC's at the same time (three after adding a KVM switch).

The third is a low spec PII 333MHZ CPU w/256MB of RAM so that could be quite helpful in regards to Lubuntu. It does run Lubuntu 11.04 just fine.

I'm having a bit of trouble learning how to tweak LXPanel, but it's just a matter of learning :D

At some point it would be cool to be able to add "drag-n-drop" to the panel, but that's another story for another day.

The thing is Unity, and particularly gnome3, have just presented too many obstacles and I've always admired the lightweight aspect of Lubuntu anyway. Why devote more system resources to a DE than needed?

Regardless I hope having an experienced iso-tester dedicated to the project may be helpful.

SevenMachines
June 4th, 2011, 06:48 PM
I'd think lxde will probably get more attention now the gnome3 and unity moves are made, its always seemed like the more natural 'classic' desktop move for those who arent too fond of gnome3/unity (although xfce is still nice too :) ) gnome3's fallback isnt really the same.

kansasnoob
June 4th, 2011, 07:21 PM
I'd think lxde will probably get more attention now the gnome3 and unity moves are made, its always seemed like the more natural 'classic' desktop move for those who arent too fond of gnome3/unity (although xfce is still nice too :) ) gnome3's fallback isnt really the same.

I have always liked LXDE. But I found gnome2 to be sooooo easy to customize that I only fiddled around a little bit.

Now, I don't hate Unity, I just honestly feel like I'm not smart enough (or capable enough due to age and visual limitations) to use Unity and/or gnome3.

IMHO the most accurate comment I've read from the Gnome devs is this:


Port to GSettings: since we wanted to be cool, there was no way we would still use the venerable gconf to store settings. Porting to GSettings was quite fun, especially as gnome-panel was probably one of the heaviest user of gconf (and it was certainly using it in interesting ways). We now use GSettings in interesting ways too since some API is still missing in GSettings. Oh, and we're also using dconf (which is what GSettings uses as a backend by default) directly, which is completely insane and crazy. But we love insane and crazy!

Source:

http://www.vuntz.net/journal/post/2011/04/13/gnome-panel-is-dead%2C-long-live-gnome-panel!

I can certainly see why Ubuntu/Canonical decided to go with Unity. IMO Unity is only frustrating, gnome3 itself is absolutely horrible :mad:

Regardless, Lubuntu did finally get the blessing from SABDFL so they're now truly part of us. I can't find the link ATM but I did read that Lubuntu will also eventually offer Unity.

I somehow doubt though that LXDE themselves would embrace that, at least not any time soon.

For me it's time to tell Gnome I'm going away soon: "Sorry Gnome, I loved you for a long time but you just got too insane and crazy"!

kansasnoob
June 4th, 2011, 07:38 PM
I did file a "test" bug report:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/casper/+bug/792850

We do need to know how to file bugs against Lubuntu :D

I also posted a reply at the Lubuntu mailing list asking if we might benefit from a sub-forum here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=46

That might be helpful while Lubuntu transitions to full status and develops it's own forum, or it may be dumb idea - I do have dumb ideas from time to time :)

SevenMachines
June 4th, 2011, 07:38 PM
Personally i was using gnome2 with a very minimal panel and gnome-do, which is pretty much where gnome3 and unity have headed so i'm ok with using them. Without encouraging any more threads with endless unity/gnome3 discussions :) i'm fairly ok with unity's simplicity, with a little hacking around.
Back on topic though, i had looked at xfce and lxde occasionally at times and thought they were nice but were gnome2-ish enough not to really stand out. Now they do stand out, and, thanks to your thread, i had a new look a lxde and have to say i was impressed by the improvement since last time. It looks a lot more polished than i remember, that may be a mix of improvements in lxde and my poor memory obviously! Seems like a good choice for more focus and buffing for those who want a more recognisable desktop. Whatever peoples personal preference, i'm always impressed by having a choice at gdm (well, lightdm!) of a real range of quality options, a nice sign of a lot of people beavering away on the things they like, and well appreciated whether its something i would go for or not. Ah, the agony of choice :)

SevenMachines
June 4th, 2011, 07:45 PM
Personally i think that the release+1 forum might benefit from a couple of sub-forums itself for this kind of thing. A lot can get lost when bugs/testing/cafe discussions are bundled together.

phillw
June 5th, 2011, 01:19 AM
Regardless, Lubuntu did finally get the blessing from SABDFL so they're now truly part of us. I can't find the link ATM but I did read that Lubuntu will also eventually offer Unity.


Hmm, do try to find the link, as the last I heard was that the only alteration to Lubuntu regarding Unity would be possibly be people unhappy with Unity and switching to LXDE.

But, our devs are peculiar creatures, if they believe that they can fit Unity into the spec of Minimal Spec (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu#System requirements) for Lubuntu I guess I'll have more wiki pages to write up and link up to!

Regards,

Phill.

teh603
June 5th, 2011, 01:41 AM
Hmm, do try to find the link, as the last I heard was that the only alteration to Lubuntu regarding Unity would be possibly be people unhappy with Unity and switching to LXDE.
I'll be honest, I see LXDE more as a way to keep stringing out older hardware than an alternative to Unity. For me, the "best" alternative is KDE, which I've found to be fairly easy to theme and has a lot of easily-installable theme packages.

That having been said, Xubuntu and Lubuntu have their place. There's so much older hardware like my eeePC 701 and Winbook M Series out there that still runs, and runs well, but might choke a bit on a full-size modern frontend.

Puppy is right out until they can find a way to make their disto actually install on a hard drive and work properly >.>

phillw
June 5th, 2011, 01:55 AM
...the "best" alternative is KDE, ...

Oddly enough lubuntu and kubuntu people work together ;) As do we with Xubuntu and Ubuntu.

Whilst some may like to start a war with Ubuntu Vs Kubuntu Vs Xubuntu Vs Lubuntu Vs Edubuntu Vs MythUbuntu Vs etc.... In practice they are doomed to failure. All the devs and team members are committed to the Ubuntu ethos and happily chat to each other and swap ideas.

The thought of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs having such a chat does really prove the advantage of F/OSS :)

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 5th, 2011, 03:19 AM
Puppy is right out until they can find a way to make their disto actually install on a hard drive and work properly >.>

off topic but what problem are you having with a HD install of puppy ?

DougieFresh4U
June 5th, 2011, 04:14 AM
Puppy is right out until they can find a way to make their disto actually install on a hard drive and work properly >.>


off topic but what problem are you having with a HD install of puppy ?

Installed Puppy many times to HD

ronacc
June 5th, 2011, 04:27 AM
I also have done many HD installs of puppy , I really like the way it handles random networks .

kansasnoob
June 5th, 2011, 07:31 AM
Hmm, do try to find the link, as the last I heard was that the only alteration to Lubuntu regarding Unity would be possibly be people unhappy with Unity and switching to LXDE.

But, our devs are peculiar creatures, if they believe that they can fit Unity into the spec of Minimal Spec (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu#System requirements) for Lubuntu I guess I'll have more wiki pages to write up and link up to!

Regards,

Phill.

I think that may have been a bad dream derived from this:


Support for global menu in lxpanel : TODO

I'm not too crazy about the global menu.

Source (more than bite size):

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers/TODO

kansasnoob
June 5th, 2011, 07:51 AM
I'll be honest, I see LXDE more as a way to keep stringing out older hardware than an alternative to Unity. For me, the "best" alternative is KDE, which I've found to be fairly easy to theme and has a lot of easily-installable theme packages.

That having been said, Xubuntu and Lubuntu have their place. There's so much older hardware like my eeePC 701 and Winbook M Series out there that still runs, and runs well, but might choke a bit on a full-size modern frontend.

Puppy is right out until they can find a way to make their disto actually install on a hard drive and work properly >.>

At one point I found Lubuntu's pcmanfm lacking considerably but I now find I can navigate my mess just as easily with it as I can with nautilus.

I do however prefer the added bloat of a few Gnome apps, like gedit, but a lot of that is just personal preference.

teh603
June 5th, 2011, 12:32 PM
off topic but what problem are you having with a HD install of puppy ?The fact that you can't get .sfs files to integrate with the desktop if you install it on an HD? Which means installing from tarballs, which always gives me a big freaking headache.


Oddly enough lubuntu and kubuntu people work together ;) As do we with Xubuntu and Ubuntu.

Whilst some may like to start a war with Ubuntu Vs Kubuntu Vs Xubuntu Vs Lubuntu Vs Edubuntu Vs MythUbuntu Vs etc.... In practice they are doomed to failure. All the devs and team members are committed to the Ubuntu ethos and happily chat to each other and swap ideas.
I wasn't trying to start a war, just trying to state personal opinion.

kansasnoob
June 5th, 2011, 03:53 PM
I'm finding most of my desired "tweaks" are actually quite easy. It definitely looks like Lubuntu will be my new home.

I'll still definitely keep playing in Ubuntu, if nothing else to monitor for difference in changes to underlying goodies like casper and ubiquity.

This is just much more comfortable. The learning curve from retro-gnome to LXDE is not nearly as steep as that of switching to Unity for me.

LXpanel is not quite as easy to modify as gnome-panel2 was, but it's just a matter of learning a few new tricks :)

ronacc
June 5th, 2011, 04:38 PM
I'm finding most of my desired "tweaks" are actually quite easy. It definitely looks like Lubuntu will be my new home.

I'll still definitely keep playing in Ubuntu, if nothing else to monitor for difference in changes to underlying goodies like casper and ubiquity.

This is just much more comfortable. The learning curve from retro-gnome to LXDE is not nearly as steep as that of switching to Unity for me.

LXpanel is not quite as easy to modify as gnome-panel2 was, but it's just a matter of learning a few new tricks :)

Thats pretty much the case with any DE you just have to learn new tricks . The question I ask myself is is it worth the bother . The Lubuntu oneric A1 looks interesting so I've prepped a partition for it on my test box , I'll install it later today . right now I have Oneric with gnome-shell on there and Debian squeeze and sid , Sabayon ,Suse and Puppy + several more open partitions available .

kansasnoob
June 5th, 2011, 05:07 PM
Thats pretty much the case with any DE you just have to learn new tricks . The question I ask myself is is it worth the bother . The Lubuntu oneric A1 looks interesting so I've prepped a partition for it on my test box , I'll install it later today . right now I have Oneric with gnome-shell on there and Debian squeeze and sid , Sabayon ,Suse and Puppy + several more open partitions available .

It's worth it to me :)

In deed, I also have Squeeze, Lucid, Maverick and Natty all running gnome2 very well so I have a long, long time to sort things out, but I love playing with the bleeding edge stuff and learning to tweak it to my liking.

But Unity and gnome3 are just beyond me. I know some love 'em, and others hate 'em, I'm in a different category: just not smart or capable enough to comprehend either. And that's OK :)

ATM Lubuntu is just a great fit for me. Hopefully I'll be able to help that project just like many help Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, etc.

I'll still have to delve into the "low-fat" Kubuntu when it rolls out :)

wnelson
June 5th, 2011, 05:24 PM
Is there a file manager that does not use gvfs? I understand that pcmanfm might be using udisk instead?

Walt

kansasnoob
June 5th, 2011, 06:02 PM
Is there a file manager that does not use gvfs? I understand that pcmanfm might be using udisk instead?

Walt

I'm very new to Lubuntu so I can't be sure, but going to Synaptic and checking dependencies both 'gvfs-fuse' and 'gvfs-backends' are listed as "recommends", not depends.

A search for 'gvfs' in Synaptic shows it is installed however. Ultimately I don't know :confused:

I can say that things seem stable, but copying large files/folders is noticeably slower. I'm not sure I really care much about that because I perform most large transfers via terminal now.

phillw
June 5th, 2011, 06:48 PM
gvfs was finally added by default into 11.04 (Prior it was a user driven addition) gvfs looks after (networked drives) and windows drives. It was causing a few support calls, so the team decided to add it by default.

https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/Documentation/FAQ#Windows share does not show up in PCManFM

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 7th, 2011, 12:46 AM
sorry for going off topic kansas , I may be asking you for pointers when I get to playing with my lubuntu install .

kansasnoob
June 7th, 2011, 01:20 AM
sorry for going off topic kansas , I may be asking you for pointers when I get to playing with my lubuntu install .

It's all cool with me, I just don't want this thread to die an untimely death :)

And it looks like the mods erased a page :confused:

I'm still in a major learning curve here myself. I was out to the doctors today and while I was gone I did a fresh install of Natty Lubuntu so I could make comparisons between what should be a working OS and a dev OS.

I'm now trying to do some mowing but by the end of this week I should know more, hopefully much more :D

cariboo
June 7th, 2011, 01:22 AM
And it looks like the mods erased a page

Not erased, just moved to here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1776831).

phillw
June 7th, 2011, 02:29 AM
Thanks mods.

Would you guys prefer a new title / thread starting for Lubuntu Ocelot? It makes sense that we keep it to one thread, especially during the a1 / a2 / a3 series.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
June 7th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Thanks mods.

Would you guys prefer a new title / thread starting for Lubuntu Ocelot? It makes sense that we keep it to one thread, especially during the a1 / a2 / a3 series.

Regards,

Phill.

That would be cool to me. You'll notice in post #1 I had to make a major edit regarding the release announcement because I was not subscribed to the mailing list at that time.

Then I had to make two major edits in post #4 because I learned I didn't know what I was doing :oops:

I'm totally cool with a rewrite of this thread regarding Lubuntu. I was just sharing what I'd found, but I need to do a lot of studying to get up to speed. That's why I did a fresh install of Lubuntu Natty today.

I'll be busy most of this week but I should be totally on-board thereafter. I already have the lxpanel 90% figured out, and pcmanfm is just easy to navigate, not much learning needed.

I just need a bit of time to get up to speed with some other things ............... like the screensaver settings, which files/folders to backup to save settings, etc.

So far things have been well documented either at the Lubuntu wiki or at LXDE, and quite often just a Google search finds what I need to know :D

kansasnoob
June 7th, 2011, 03:05 AM
I'm just dieing to know if Lubuntu will stay with lxdm or go with lightdm :confused:

The reason I'm dieing to know is I'm used to using gdm and xrandr to set a lower screen resolution. I can do it with an xorg.conf but I prefer using the display pre-session.

cariboo
June 7th, 2011, 03:11 AM
My feeling is that this thread should be kept as it is, I just removed the off topic posts.

If you want to start a Lubuntu-Oneiric specific thread, by all means go ahead.

teh603
June 7th, 2011, 03:25 AM
So is Lubuntu i386 and AMD64, or just i386 at this point? I'm tempted to see just how fast I can goose my computers, but my big desktop PC has to have AMD64 because of all its memory.

ronacc
June 7th, 2011, 03:49 AM
At the link in the first post there is only 1 .iso . I was wondering about AMD64 myself since I am in the same situation as you on my test box . I installed from the only .iso and it came up I386 so when running that install some of my mem isn't recognised .Maybe someone knows if they are planning an AMD64 version sometime .

edit : its very light on resources 274 mb mem in use with Opera and pcmanfm and the system profiler open so loosing a bit of mem shouldn't hurt too much . LOL

phillw
June 7th, 2011, 01:27 PM
When alpha 2 comes out, it should have the 64 bit variant as Lubuntu should then be built using the standard iso building system that the rest of the family use.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
June 7th, 2011, 10:07 PM
I had posted about 64-bit Lubuntu here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10809882&postcount=3

Since I have no 64-bit hardware I can't say much more ;)

phillw
June 7th, 2011, 10:49 PM
thanks,

a2 is quite busy for Lubuntu, as we have to decide the final contenders of what applications we will natively install on the general isos. I reminded our TL last night, that was a OMG moment!

As previously stated, from alpha2, Lubuntu will (we pray) be using the standard ISO building system that ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu etc. use. As always, there is a 'but' as Debian are just changing over some stuff themselves. They hope that all will be in place for the a2.

Most of the time the Devs may as well speak and write in a language developed on the Klingon home world of Qo'noS, but I do get the general idea and can always go pin one of our Dev's down to translate some of the more technical details into human.

Regards,

Phill.

xebian
June 7th, 2011, 11:06 PM
I have been running 64-bit Lubuntu from the repo for the last 2 or 3 cycles now. I mainly used CLI + lubuntu-core to get a minimal X session as a VBox host and then run my Kubuntu and Ubuntu guest.

BTW lubuntu-core installed in Kubuntu is a very good rescue tool when X fails to start which usually is desktop effects issue. Boot to lubuntu and then run system-settings from there to turn off desktop effects.

ronacc
June 7th, 2011, 11:27 PM
I had posted about 64-bit Lubuntu here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10809882&postcount=3

Since I have no 64-bit hardware I can't say much more ;)

Thanks for the link kansas . I've got the torrent comming down now , only getting about 50kb/s from it so it will take awhile .When it completes I'll leave the box running and seed .

kansasnoob
June 7th, 2011, 11:33 PM
thanks,

a2 is quite busy for Lubuntu, as we have to decide the final contenders of what applications we will natively install on the general isos. I reminded our TL last night, that was a OMG moment!

As previously stated, from alpha2, Lubuntu will (we pray) be using the standard ISO building system that ubuntu, kubuntu, xubuntu etc. use. As always, there is a 'but' as Debian are just changing over some stuff themselves. They hope that all will be in place for the a2.

Most of the time the Devs may as well speak and write in a language developed on the Klingon home world of Qo'noS, but I do get the general idea and can always go pin one of our Dev's down to translate some of the more technical details into human.

Regards,

Phill.

Indeed, you probably saw my latest response on the mailing list:

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg04144.html

Those thousand devs, minus 998, are going to have their hands full :D

phillw
June 8th, 2011, 12:31 AM
Thanks for the link kansas . I've got the torrent comming down now , only getting about 50kb/s from it so it will take awhile .When it completes I'll leave the box running and seed .

As a rule, I always host the Lubuntu isos on my server. On this occasion, with what out Head of Dev said about a1 I did not.

From a2 onwards, there will be a fall back for if there is no torrent feeders via a direct download and the builds will have 32 & 64 by default.

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 8th, 2011, 01:41 AM
there was a link for direct d/l but I didn't try it , I like to use torrents to help take load off the servers and I try to seed atleast for awhile for the same reason . my test box often sits idle so it might as well do some good .

Catharsis
June 8th, 2011, 08:19 AM
I'm just dieing to know if Lubuntu will stay with lxdm or go with lightdm :confused:

I remember reading in a couple places that Lubuntu is supportive of switching to LightDM, so I wouldn't be surprised if it switches once the entire Ubuntu family switches.

As an aside, a Call for Testing for LightDM was posted to the ubuntu-desktop list a couple days ago.

xebian
June 8th, 2011, 03:00 PM
I remember reading in a couple places that Lubuntu is supportive of switching to LightDM, so I wouldn't be surprised if it switches once the entire Ubuntu family switches.

As an aside, a Call for Testing for LightDM was posted to the ubuntu-desktop list a couple days ago.

This is just another logon screen-manager and it doesn't really matter which one you use to bring up your fav desktop session.
If I may, there should be just one Ubuntu(Universal?) DM across all the *buntu flavor with distinctive theme(s).

SevenMachines
June 8th, 2011, 04:30 PM
If I may, there should be just one Ubuntu(Universal?) DM across all the *buntu flavor with distinctive theme(s).

I think this is very much part of what lightdm is aiming to be, one standard display manager for all (not just ubuntu obviously). With plenty of configurabilty to allow for all the different uses

teh603
June 9th, 2011, 04:54 PM
Just tried the 64-bit iso on my USB stick, and dayum. That thing runs like a scared goat. Once I get some more blank DVDs, I'm going to have to try it on my old Winbook and report back.

Edit: When can we expect to have the nVidia binary driver? Much as Nouveau and its 3D libraries are popular, I kinda need something that actually works.

kansasnoob
June 10th, 2011, 01:04 AM
Regarding DM's, as far as I can see most display managers have a more eloquent way of handing boot off to X. Consider these examples:


/.
/etc
/etc/X11
/etc/X11/Xsession.d
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/60xdg_path-on-session
/etc/dbus-1
/etc/dbus-1/system.d
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/gdm.conf
/etc/gdm
/etc/gdm/Init
/etc/gdm/Init/Default
/etc/gdm/PostLogin
/etc/gdm/PostLogin/Default.sample
/etc/gdm/PostSession
/etc/gdm/PostSession/Default
/etc/gdm/PreSession
/etc/gdm/PreSession/Default
/etc/gdm/Xsession
/etc/gdm/gdm.schemas
/etc/init
/etc/init.d
/etc/init.d/gdm
/etc/init/gdm.conf
/etc/pam.d
/etc/pam.d/gdm
/etc/pam.d/gdm-autologin
/usr
/usr/bin
/usr/bin/gdm-screenshot
/usr/bin/gdmflexiserver
/usr/bin/gdmsetup
/usr/lib
/usr/lib/gdm
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-crash-logger
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-factory-slave
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-host-chooser
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-product-slave
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-session-worker
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-set-default-session
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-simple-chooser
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-simple-greeter
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-simple-slave
/usr/lib/gdm/gdm-xdmcp-chooser-slave
/usr/sbin
/usr/sbin/gdm
/usr/sbin/gdm-binary
/usr/share
/usr/share/applications
/usr/share/applications/gdmsetup.desktop
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/gdm
/usr/share/doc/gdm/AUTHORS
/usr/share/doc/gdm/NEWS.gz
/usr/share/doc/gdm/README
/usr/share/doc/gdm/changelog.Debian.gz
/usr/share/doc/gdm/copyright
/usr/share/doc/gdm/examples
/usr/share/doc/gdm/examples/custom.conf
/usr/share/gconf
/usr/share/gconf/schemas
/usr/share/gconf/schemas/gdm-simple-greeter.schemas
/usr/share/gdm
/usr/share/gdm/autostart
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/at-spi-registryd-wrapper.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/gdm-simple-greeter.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/gnome-mag.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/gnome-power-manager.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/gnome-settings-daemon.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/metacity.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/onboard.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/autostart/LoginWindow/orca-screen-reader.desktop
/usr/share/gdm/gdb-cmd
/usr/share/gdm/gdm-greeter-login-window.ui
/usr/share/gdm/gdm.schemas
/usr/share/gdm/gdmsetup.ui
/usr/share/gdm/language-options
/usr/share/gdm/locale.alias
/usr/share/gnome
/usr/share/gnome/help
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/C
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/C/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/C/legal.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/de
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/de/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/el
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/el/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/en_GB
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/en_GB/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/es
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/es/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/fr
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/fr/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/id
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/id/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/it
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/it/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/ko
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/ko/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/oc
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/oc/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/ru
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/ru/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/sl
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/sl/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/sv
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/sv/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/uk
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/uk/gdm.xml
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/zh_CN
/usr/share/gnome/help/gdm/zh_CN/gdm.xml
/usr/share/icons
/usr/share/icons/hicolor
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/16x16/apps/gdm-xnest.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/gdm-setup.png
/usr/share/icons/hicolor/32x32/apps/gdm-xnest.png
/usr/share/omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-C.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-de.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-el.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-en_GB.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-es.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-fr.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-id.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-it.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-ko.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-oc.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-ru.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-sl.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-sv.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-uk.omf
/usr/share/omf/gdm/gdm-zh_CN.omf
/usr/share/pixmaps
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/astronaut.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/baseball.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/butterfly.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/cat-eye.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/chess.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/coffee.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/dice.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/energy-arc.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/fish.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/flake.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/flower.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/grapes.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/guitar.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/launch.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/leaf.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/lightning.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/penguin.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/puppy.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/sky.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/soccerball.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/sunflower.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/sunset.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/tennis-ball.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/faces/yellow-rose.jpg
/usr/share/pixmaps/gdm-foot-logo.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/gdm-setup.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/gdm-xnest.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/gdm.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/nobody.png
/usr/share/pixmaps/nohost.png
/usr/share/polkit-1
/usr/share/polkit-1/actions
/usr/share/polkit-1/actions/gdm.policy
/usr/share/xsessions
/usr/share/xsessions/xsession.desktop
/usr/share/xsessions/xterm.desktop
/var
/var/cache
/var/cache/gdm
/var/lib
/var/lib/gdm
/var/lib/gdm/.gconf.defaults
/var/lib/gdm/.gconf.defaults/%gconf-tree.xml
/var/lib/gdm/.gconf.mandatory
/var/lib/gdm/.gconf.mandatory/%gconf-tree.xml
/var/lib/gdm/.gconf.path
/var/lib/gdm/.local
/var/lib/gdm/.local/share
/var/lib/gdm/.local/share/applications
/var/lib/gdm/.local/share/applications/mime-dummy-handler.desktop
/var/lib/gdm/.local/share/applications/mimeapps.list
/var/log
/var/log/gdm



/.
/etc
/etc/dbus-1
/etc/dbus-1/system.d
/etc/dbus-1/system.d/org.lightdm.LightDisplayManager.conf
/etc/init
/etc/init.d
/etc/init.d/lightdm
/etc/init/lightdm.conf
/etc/lightdm.conf
/etc/pam.d
/etc/pam.d/lightdm
/usr
/usr/bin
/usr/bin/lightdm
/usr/share
/usr/share/doc
/usr/share/doc/lightdm
/usr/share/doc/lightdm/changelog.Debian.gz
/usr/share/doc/lightdm/copyright
/usr/share/man
/usr/share/man/man1
/usr/share/man/man1/lightdm.1.gz
/var
/var/cache
/var/cache/lightdm
/var/log
/var/log/lightdm

I know that's lightdm vs gdm, but lxdm is similar.

Lightdm just goes straight for X instead of looking for preset defaults ..................... I guess because X is always right :rolleyes:

I don't like it because there is no PreSession to X.

OTOH even LXDM can be somewhat buggy.

phillw
June 10th, 2011, 01:18 AM
I'd suggest placing bets,

for those not on the mailing list (and why aren't you?!!)

As we progress to a2, which is really eating up time with the new things, there is a discussion going on between the devs as to 'try' LightDM out, with a fall back to LXDM.

As we are short of devs, I always vote for what the devs think is possible. It does appear that they think that LightDM is possible provided they maintain a 'fall back' position incase it all goes horribly wrong.

I've no idea if they are going to try and get LightDM in at a2 or a3, or gradually introduce it as Lubuntu heads towards its first LTS at 12.04 - As only the couple of devs can decide upon their own workload and how many 'man hours' they can spare it is their choice.

There are pros and cons each way, I'm just glad I'm not head of dev and the one to make the call.

Regards,

Phill.

teh603
June 10th, 2011, 05:18 AM
I'd suggest placing bets,

for those not on the mailing list (and why aren't you?!!)

As we progress to a2, which is really eating up time with the new things, there is a discussion going on between the devs as to 'try' LightDM out, with a fall back to LXDM.

As we are short of devs, I always vote for what the devs think is possible. It does appear that they think that LightDM is possible provided they maintain a 'fall back' position incase it all goes horribly wrong.

I've no idea if they are going to try and get LightDM in at a2 or a3, or gradually introduce it as Lubuntu heads towards its first LTS at 12.04 - As only the couple of devs can decide upon their own workload and how many 'man hours' they can spare it is their choice.

There are pros and cons each way, I'm just glad I'm not head of dev and the one to make the call.

Regards,

Phill.Well, first off... the last computer I was able to competently program was an Apple //c. So, are you *sure* you want me on your mailing list, asking all the stupid questions?

ojdon
June 10th, 2011, 10:44 AM
Trying to download the torrent but there isn't a great deal of seeds. Anyone mind seeding to speed things up? Or is there a mirror for Lubuntu 11.10?

kansasnoob
June 11th, 2011, 08:04 AM
I'd suggest placing bets,

for those not on the mailing list (and why aren't you?!!)

As we progress to a2, which is really eating up time with the new things, there is a discussion going on between the devs as to 'try' LightDM out, with a fall back to LXDM.

As we are short of devs, I always vote for what the devs think is possible. It does appear that they think that LightDM is possible provided they maintain a 'fall back' position incase it all goes horribly wrong.

I've no idea if they are going to try and get LightDM in at a2 or a3, or gradually introduce it as Lubuntu heads towards its first LTS at 12.04 - As only the couple of devs can decide upon their own workload and how many 'man hours' they can spare it is their choice.

There are pros and cons each way, I'm just glad I'm not head of dev and the one to make the call.

Regards,

Phill.

I am, since the time I first posted to the list.

Or at least I think I am.

I did see some discussion going on there regarding lxdm vs. lightdm, but remember I'm just now getting my feet wet in the Lubuntu poll, so I have the whole learning curve thing to deal with :)

I'm also time challenged ATM.

kansasnoob
June 12th, 2011, 03:44 PM
The only thing about Lubuntu that has me puzzled is getting the hardware temp monitor to work in the panel. I've installed lm-sensors and run "sensors-detect" but I still get just an NA.

I'm also not wild about Xscreensaver, but it'll work ;)

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 03:51 PM
I don't even see a temp applet for the lubuntu panel , I installed psensor , not a very satisfactory display but at least you can see if the sensors are working . What I would like to find is where to set the login window to automatic .

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 04:13 PM
I think I have Xscreensaver about 90% figured out. These two web pages are very helpful:

http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/faq.html

http://www.jwz.org/xscreensaver/man2.html

In fact, I'm wondering if I couldn't use it with gnome3? I'll have to try sometime.

No luck on the computer temp applet, but I did find this:

http://forum.lxde.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1263&hilit=lxde+temperature+monitor&start=10

I'm really amazed at how easy Lubuntu is to get used to ............ almost boring :lolflag:

Something I would like to learn is how to restore default desktop and/or panel settings. I'm sure it's easy but I'm still a bit confused about that.

Catharsis
June 13th, 2011, 04:13 PM
What I would like to find is where to set the login window to automatic .

Edit
/etc/xdg/lubuntu/lxdm/lxdm.confand add the line
autologin=userwhere 'user' is your username.

For more info see the lxdm man page.

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 04:54 PM
I don't even see a temp applet for the lubuntu panel , I installed psensor , not a very satisfactory display but at least you can see if the sensors are working . What I would like to find is where to set the login window to automatic .

I found a way to set the auto-login earlier today playing in Peppermint Two:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=10066458&postcount=6

But after doing that I found that I had root access to all files & folders. For instance I use a custom xorg.conf, and I could just open a terminal and type "gedit /etc/X11/xorg.conf", then edit and save with no need for sudo :(

But I need to do some repeat testing. That may be just how pcmanfm works :confused:

I'm in Ubuntu Natty classic right now getting some work done but I've fiddled around with all of my LXDE installs so much I should probably start from scratch and then repeat some of my mods more cautiously :)

The next time I'm in Lubuntu I'll snap some screenshots regarding that temp monitor.

I can't say I'm all that impressed with either lightdm or lxdm ATM. I may decide to try gdm version 3 from the Debian package list sometime in the near future.

Sometimes a little "bloat" can be a good thing if it actually adds functionality, like gedit.

Totally OT, but I have a router, some cables, and a KVM switch coming from NewEgg sometime this week so I'll soon have three computers to play with at once. One is an old PII w/333mhz CPU & 256mb RAM so I can really check out how much bloat effects a slow machine :)

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 05:00 PM
Edit
/etc/xdg/lubuntu/lxdm/lxdm.confand add the line
autologin=userwhere 'user' is your username.

For more info see the lxdm man page.

Thanks for the info. Us LXDE converts can use all the help we can get :)

One of the greatest obstacles has been web searches themselves. Quite often searching for info about "lubuntu" renders mostly results for "ubuntu", so I've found that searching for "lxde" or individual components like "lxpanel" or "lxdm" renders much better results.

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 05:10 PM
unfortunately that didn't do it . also tried /etc/lxdm/lxdm.conf no luck , that seems to be controled by upstart , investigating , thanks for the hint , it at least got me headed in a direction .

Catharsis
June 13th, 2011, 05:30 PM
Quite often searching for info about "lubuntu" renders mostly results for "ubuntu", so I've found that searching for "lxde" or individual components like "lxpanel" or "lxdm" renders much better results.

If you put "Lubuntu" in quotes it won't add suggestions. That's what I've been doing.

Catharsis
June 13th, 2011, 05:33 PM
unfortunately that didn't do it . also tried /etc/lxdm/lxdm.conf no luck , that seems to be controled by upstart , investigating , thanks for the hint , it at least got me headed in a direction .

From the man page, it sounds like you might have to run
update-alternative --config lxdm.confto get the symlink (default.conf) updated. You can check default.conf and see if it includes the autologin line. The system checks /etc/lxdm/default.conf for its configuration, which itself is just a symlink/copy of /etc/xdg/lubuntu/lxdm/lxdm.conf

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 05:33 PM
Regarding the temp monitor thing I dropped into my Lubuntu Natty install and took a couple of screenshots. I used a couple of different panel colors/themes and window sizes:

195000

195001

The little NA in the panel is what I get, and the app settings dialog looks like this:

195002

My Oneiric Lubuntu install is almost identical, but I'm going to boot it now to investigate the display manager issue a bit more closely.

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 05:42 PM
If you put "Lubuntu" in quotes it won't add suggestions. That's what I've been doing.

You're right. I'm sort of in "D'oh" mode (picture Homer Simpson here) ATM after having to repeat "web search 101" all over again :lolflag:

Sometimes the simplest things really do have simple answers ;)

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 06:13 PM
Here's what "/etc/lxdm/default.conf" looks like before editing:


lance@lance-desktop:~$ cat /etc/lxdm/default.conf
[base]
# autologin=dgod
session=/usr/bin/startlubuntu
# numlock=0
greeter=/usr/lib/lxdm/lxdm-greeter-gtk

[server]
# arg=/usr/bin/X -nr vt1

[display]
gtk_theme=Clearlooks
bottom_pane=1
lang=1
theme=Lubuntu

[input]

[userlist]
disable=0
white=
black=


Based on what I'd seen earlier in Peppermint Two I tried to edit my xorg.conf w/o root privileges and it failed as it should.

I checked in Synaptic and lxdm is still being used, no lightdm installed, so I'm going to try an edit and I'll be back with the results directly :)

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 06:25 PM
sudo update-alternative --config lxdm.conf returned "update-alternative command not found " but hand editing default.conf did the trick .

@kansasnoob I don't have the temperatue monitor applet showing as available in the oneric panel in lubuntu .

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 06:27 PM
Okay I modified this line in "/etc/lxdm/default.conf":


# autologin=dgod

To this:


autologin=lance

That is, I removed the comment and replaced "dgod" with my username, and autologin works as expected :)

I also checked to see if I could modify root files w/o being root and I still couldn't, so that thing in Peppermint Two is either due to a bug or some other mod I made :D

Looks good to me but I'd appreciate any feedback.

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 06:34 PM
sudo update-alternative --config lxdm.conf returned "update-alternative command not found " but hand editing default.conf did the trick .

@kansasnoob I don't have the temperatue monitor applet showing as available in the oneric panel in lubuntu .

It's odd that I do I guess:

195003

Notice the NA between my screensaver applet and the volume applet?

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 06:36 PM
yes that must be something else I also hand edited default.conf , I checked for root access without sudo and do not have it .

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 06:39 PM
gah , my stupidity I wasn't hitting the "add" button , it's there now [-o<

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 06:57 PM
Beyond getting that temp applet to work properly the only thing I notice is the double icon in the panel showing that my network is broken, although it's not, but compared to parent Ubuntu it's fairly bug free. That is, most things just work :D

What amazed me was how easy it actually is to modify the lxpanel. At first I missed the "drag-n-drop" capability of gnome2, but after a bit of playing I find lxpanel to be quite simple. You can use however many "App Launch Bars" you like (wherever you like) to place any menu items in the panel.

And flash based video like Hulu is much better on Lubuntu than what I was experiencing on gnome with this cheap Intel board :guitar:

IMHO, compared to all options currently available with gnome3, this is a winner :D

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 07:05 PM
yes lubuntu kind of grows on you , I've got the 2 x'd out net icons too but I ignore them since it's obiously working . If I can make any progress with the temp applet I'll post it but from that link you posted it looks like we'll have to wait awhile .

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 07:06 PM
yes that must be something else I also hand edited default.conf , I checked for root access without sudo and do not have it .

I'll check that Peppermint Two install again to make sure I wasn't just asleep at the wheel - certainly possible - and I'll test a new install if needed.

What's cool about Peppermint is the reliance on truly free cloud apps. I don't particularly care for it, but for those with very small hard drives it could be great.

They also develope Mint's LXDE version but I just can't stand Mint's tools.

teh603
June 13th, 2011, 08:16 PM
I'll check that Peppermint Two install again to make sure I wasn't just asleep at the wheel - certainly possible - and I'll test a new install if needed.

What's cool about Peppermint is the reliance on truly free cloud apps. I don't particularly care for it, but for those with very small hard drives it could be great.

They also develope Mint's LXDE version but I just can't stand Mint's tools.Instead of using cloud apps, it might be safer for people's freedom of choice to use small local apps. M$ Word 5 was less than a megabyte in size, and did almost everything that the latest version does- I used it on a Mac SE (as in 68k CPU at 8 Mhz) and it ran blazing fast. There's no reason why a modern word processor needs to be as big as they're getting.

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 08:32 PM
you are right there , I'll bet upwards of 90% of users never use most of the "features" in the heavy weight packages , no matter which one . They should definitely be available for those who do but not default .Personally I find just about any text editor adequate for my correspondence needs ( I learned to write notes and letters on a manual Underwood typewriter a couple of decades before word processors ).

kansasnoob
June 13th, 2011, 09:02 PM
Instead of using cloud apps, it might be safer for people's freedom of choice to use small local apps. M$ Word 5 was less than a megabyte in size, and did almost everything that the latest version does- I used it on a Mac SE (as in 68k CPU at 8 Mhz) and it ran blazing fast. There's no reason why a modern word processor needs to be as big as they're getting.

I haven't really needed to worry about bloat much in quite a few years, but even before moving to Ubuntu I'd been using Abiword in Windows. I still use Abiword, it does everything I need a word processor to do.

I have considered using Google docs but I've just never gotten around to trying it out.

phillw
June 13th, 2011, 09:19 PM
I do so love this time in a release's formation... People who are best of friends all falling out saying 'my app is better than your app'... I'm always glad when the decision has been made!

Original List of applications (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Applications) is where we started, and the mailing list has been lively! As the dates are very close to closure Lubuntu 11.10 Schedule (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers#Schedule) I look forward to what is eventually decided. As we all know, we cannot please all the people all the time. For every little extra bit asked for, something must go. The line in the sand that may not be crossed is
A Pentium II or Celeron system with 128 MiB of RAM is probably a bottom-line configuration that may yield slow yet usable system with Lubuntu. Thankfully we do have 'grown up' discussions with a wonderful absence of 'spitting the dummy out'.

As already mentioned, the alpha 1 was an alpha 1 in every meaning of the word. As odd as it may seem, the hard work for everyone from devs via testers and bug-triagers / fixers to documentation etc. really starts at alpha 2.

Sorry if this seems more like a blog, but I did promise to keep you all 'in the loop'.

Many thanks for your continued testing and reporting of issues.

Regards,

Phill.
P.S. I'm finally getting my head round these Virtual Machines;)
P.P.S. The Direct Link for Lubuntu 11.10 alpha 1 has expired, following on from comments about the lack of seeders I am getting it transferred to my server area - I will let you know when it is done.

**EDIT** The link on Lubuntu Testing (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing) has been updated to reflect the fact the iso now lives on my server.

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 09:49 PM
I seeded lubuntu A1 for a couple of days last week and had zero takers , I can start again if there is a need .

teh603
June 13th, 2011, 10:44 PM
you are right there , I'll bet upwards of 90% of users never use most of the "features" in the heavy weight packages , no matter which one . They should definitely be available for those who do but not default .Personally I find just about any text editor adequate for my correspondence needs ( I learned to write notes and letters on a manual Underwood typewriter a couple of decades before word processors ).
I've got an old typewriter at home that I used to use. Not an Underwood, but its still really ancient.


Sorry if this seems more like a blog, but I did promise to keep you all 'in the loop'.
Eh, its ok. It keeps those of us not on the mailing list informed.

Edit: Is there any way to include Gedit or Kate, or a word processor that supports replacing tabs with spaces while typing? When I'm writing, I can't be hitting the spacebar eight times, and when I'm uploading the tab characters get stripped out and ignored because the internet can't be bothered to follow accepted English formatting. Abiword and Leafpad don't support it.

If its in the repositories that's fine too, as long as I can find it.

ronacc
June 13th, 2011, 11:21 PM
you can install gedit in lubuntu , with a few extra libs it drags in it only adds about 10 mb .

phillw
June 13th, 2011, 11:22 PM
Edit: Is there any way to include Gedit or Kate, or a word processor that supports replacing tabs with spaces while typing?.....

One of the things that has come out on the mailing list is that everyone has their own 'favourite' apps (you should have heard the debate on dropping x-chat because pidgin as a generic can do IRC and other variants of IM).

The point is to keep within our stated rule of specification for a basic install. After that, what you do with it is entirely upto you! (I had a full LAMP server on mine), along with both Chromium and Ffox, Abiword & Gnumeric along with OpenOffice.

The debates about what we can actually fit in to that spec are very tight, there does, as always, seem to be a little bit of 'drag' towards "well, I've got a multi core with 4GB of RAM etc..." - Our answer to that is "go and install Ubuntu".

An example... And, it is really only an example, as the decision has not yet been made.

The removal of x-chat as a default and use pidgin. The space saved would allow extra language packs to be included on the iso.

@ Kansass - you know what you need, go google it & install it. EVERYTHING on the entire ubuntu repsository and all those sourceforge debs will run on Lubuntu :) If there is anything specific that you cannot find on the ubuntu database, I will go looking further afield for you.

Regards,

Phill.

teh603
June 14th, 2011, 03:19 AM
The debates about what we can actually fit in to that spec are very tight, there does, as always, seem to be a little bit of 'drag' towards "well, I've got a multi core with 4GB of RAM etc..." - Our answer to that is "go and install Ubuntu".
I'm aware of that, and I don't plan on running it on the big desktop. I want to be able to use my old Winbook (with about half a gig of ram) as an emergency computer, and replacing tabs with spaces while typing is my only mission-critical feature. Its also one that nobody seems to think about using very often, for some reason.

Now, that old Winbook can run i386 Kubuntu 10.10 somewhat slowly, but I'd rather have it running as fast as it was when it was new.


you can install gedit in lubuntu , with a few extra libs it drags in it only adds about 10 mb .10 megs isn't small, but its not as big as a lot of the bloatware I've seen. Once I get a decent burn I'll have to try it out. I ran out of blank CDs trying to fix my mini-mac and my style is a bit cramped until I can get some more.

phillw
June 14th, 2011, 02:23 PM
The link on Lubuntu Testing (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing) has been updated to reflect the fact the iso now lives on my server.

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 14th, 2011, 02:35 PM
question I opened pcmanfm with sudo and then tried to open my /home/(user) dir and it gave me a permission denied , is this normal for pcmanfm ? and can it be invoked with full root privileges ?

phillw
June 14th, 2011, 02:54 PM
question I opened pcmanfm with sudo and then tried to open my /home/(user) dir and it gave me a permission denied , is this normal for pcmanfm ? and can it be invoked with full root privileges ?

Ahhggg!!! Always use gksudo for graphical programmes, else it will - as it has done, mess up all your permissions!

Try issuing
cd /home/(user)
sudo chown (user) -R *


Don't include the ()'s :P

That should reset your permissions.

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 14th, 2011, 04:18 PM
I think you misunderstood me . I didn't mean I couldn't open my /home as user I could . I meant that pcmanfm when invoked with sudo would not open my user /home dir
and returned a permission denied . It would open roots /home dir and all system dirs ok . And yes its a bad habit I have sometimes using sudo when I should use gksu .
note it also returns permission denied when I invoke it with gksu or if I open it from the Icon as user and then select tools > open current folder as root .
I'll take a screenshot as soon as I find out how to in lubuntu .

phillw
June 14th, 2011, 04:27 PM
I'll take a screenshot as soon as I find out how to in lubuntu .

Hi, Alt + PrtSc will take a snapshot of your desktop, it will appear in your ~home directory as a scrot.png file.

You can either ask on the Mailing list, or raise a bug for it.

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 14th, 2011, 04:37 PM
heres the SS . I'll investigate a little more then probably file a bug , if I do I'll post the # here .

phillw
June 16th, 2011, 12:50 PM
Please be aware of a little gremlin in the works. There is a quick and dirty hack if you're so affected. If you are please add yourself to the 'affects me' in order to keep appraised of progress.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-power-manager/+bug/797094

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 16th, 2011, 01:14 PM
I'm not seeing quite the same thing as in the bug report but something is definitely screwy . on my sys the total cpu usage in htop does not agree with the sum of the individual usages , about 2x as high , also htop reported usage is vastly higher than what is reported by screenlets>system monitor which seems too low . htop shows totals of about 60% per core while screenlets shows about 3% per core .

seeker5528
June 16th, 2011, 07:35 PM
question I opened pcmanfm with sudo and then tried to open my /home/(user) dir and it gave me a permission denied , is this normal for pcmanfm ? and can it be invoked with full root privileges ?

That's a risk with any software that writes configuration or temporary data to $HOME.

If you use the '-H' argument that will set $HOME within the sudo session so those things will write to root's home during the session instead of your home.


sudo -H pcmanfm

If you use gksudo or kdesudo they handle that and have the additional benefit of doing some X permissions voodoo for the benefit of people who use a display manager that start X session with more restrictive options.

EDIT" Oops, Guess I should have read the entire thread first.....


I meant that pcmanfm when invoked with sudo would not open my user /home dir
and returned a permission denied .

I get a 'Permission Denied' dialog box popping up, but I don't see what that is about, I can still browse my home directory.

After getting the dialog box I do see this in the terminal window I started pcmanfm from....


** (pcmanfm:5816): DEBUG: FmJob error: Permission denied

If I browse to the home directory of my other user account that I'm not logged in to I don't get that message.

I'm using GDM for my display manger, may or may not make a difference.

If I open pcmanfm normally then go to tools and choose 'Open Current Folder as Root', I get the same thing too.

Later, Seeker

ronacc
June 16th, 2011, 08:46 PM
yes I found that if you just dismiss the "permission denied" you can browse and manipulate the user /home/dir as you would expect . I also have no idea what the "permission denied" is about .

phillw
June 16th, 2011, 11:06 PM
yes I found that if you just dismiss the "permission denied" you can browse and manipulate the user /home/dir as you would expect . I also have no idea what the "permission denied" is about .

hiyas,

In the absence of a bug report, could you assemble what you have found and done and pop it on to the mailing list. One of the devs may be better able to assign a bug report to it.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/GettingInvolved

will give you ability to post to the mailing list, else just send directly to lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net and I'll see it in the moderation queue and forward it.

Many thanks for taking the time to help narrow down a little gremlin :)

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 16th, 2011, 11:44 PM
message sent to lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net , subject pcmanfm bug .

kansasnoob
June 19th, 2011, 02:40 PM
I'm tossing a note here, largely as a reminder to myself, Jonathan Marsden contacted me via the mailing list about having updated his ppa to include some Oneiric packages:

https://launchpad.net/~jmarsden/+archive/lubuntu?field.series_filter=oneiric

Also Julien Lavergne has suggested creating a "lubuntu-dev/lubuntu-daily" ppa.

@ ronacc,

Not sure if this is helpful at all, but I always just use the gui in pcmanfm:

195511

In gnome I'd always installed 'nautilus-gksu' and then been able to "open as admin", but I found pcmanfm to be able to handle gui "opening-as-root" w/o the need for adding anything from the repos.

My oldest son helped complete my LAN wiring yesterday so the next couple of days I'm going to be attempting to move my home office into the next room. Wish me luck :)

ronacc
June 19th, 2011, 02:59 PM
I get the permission denied with the gui too . but it is nice not to have to install the open as root . be careful during the move , don't trip over the chaos . good luck !

kansasnoob
June 20th, 2011, 05:16 PM
Wow, they got that done fast:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily

There appear to be packages there for both Oneiric and Natty.

ronacc
June 20th, 2011, 06:09 PM
thanks for the heads up . my permission denied problem is partially fixed . I can now open as root from the gui without getting the warning . However I now cannot open pcmanfm as root from terminal at all ! I now get an undefined signal error . also I did not show the pcmanfm updates only the libfm ones that could be the problem .

phillw
June 20th, 2011, 07:35 PM
Wow, they got that done fast:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily

There appear to be packages there for both Oneiric and Natty.

We may have only a few devs, but once they choose a plan of action it happens real fast :D (I'm sure they do that so that us doc gang cannot keep upto date ;) )

hopefully with the VM installed, they can now direct me to things to test out for them. 1I've still got a few (read as lot) of cobwebs to brush away, but I do hope to me more help than hinderance!

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
June 22nd, 2011, 03:18 AM
now I can't start pcmanfm at all , from the icon or menu it just fails to start from term I get this .

ron@ron-desktop2:~$ pcmanfm

(pcmanfm:9937): GLib-GObject-WARNING **: /build/buildd/glib2.0-2.29.8/./gobject/gsignal.c:2278: signal `status' is invalid for instance `0x9764940'
pcmanfm: symbol lookup error: pcmanfm: undefined symbol: fm_path_entry_set_model
ron@ron-desktop2:~$

ronacc
June 22nd, 2011, 11:49 AM
found the problem , as I said above when I added the PPA the libfm packages showed up but not the pcmanfm ones so I had the older pcmanfm file which is appearently incompatible with the new libfm . I d/l'd the new pcmanfm and installed dpkg , did no need force , it seems ok now .

MilkeySUFC
June 23rd, 2011, 12:33 PM
Is Lubuntu now on the same release schedule as Ubuntu and other derivatives?

I.E. will the Lubuntu A2 be available June 30th?

Cheers,
Milkey

phillw
June 23rd, 2011, 02:40 PM
The Lubuntu devs endeavour to keep the same schedule, but can be a day (or two) late. We are still dependent on the core release of ubuntu to spin our iso's up. This should change, hopefully in time for the alpha 2.

Oneric Roadmap (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers#Roadmap)

Regards,

Phill.

MilkeySUFC
June 23rd, 2011, 06:43 PM
The Lubuntu devs endeavour to keep the same schedule, but can be a day (or two) late. We are still dependent on the core release of ubuntu to spin our iso's up. This should change, hopefully in time for the alpha 2.

Oneric Roadmap (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers#Roadmap)

Regards,

Phill.

Hi Phill,

That roadmap has A2 scheduled for 7th July. The updated Ubuntu schedule has A2 as 30th June.

Do you know if Lubuntu A2 going to be 7th July or 30th June?

Cheers,
Milkey

Catharsis
June 23rd, 2011, 07:04 PM
Hi Phill,

That roadmap has A2 scheduled for 7th July. The updated Ubuntu schedule has A2 as 30th June.

Do you know if Lubuntu A2 going to be 7th July or 30th June?

Cheers,
Milkey

Ubuntu Alpha 2 was rescheduled back to July 7th.

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricReleaseSchedule

phillw
June 23rd, 2011, 09:52 PM
Hiyas,

Guyz & Galz, I've not really had chance to nail one of the two iso builders for Lubuntu into a corner (They are experts at ninja hiding). I will ask the two guys if they have had news from Canonical as to if a2 will be built fully using the Canonical build system, and also a proposed date for the release.

Please do appreciate that it is a really small team, and not only are they getting lubuntu 11-10 ready for it's debut as 'fully adopted' but also developing it!

As soon as I have news, I will post here and ensure that the wiki area for Lubuntu 11-10 schedule is kept up to date (Our Head of dev looks after that).

As if that is not enough, they are also liasing with looking at making daily spins of the iso available. (Makes note to brush up on my rusty rsync skills).

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
June 23rd, 2011, 11:55 PM
Hiyas,

Guyz & Galz, I've not really had chance to nail one of the two iso builders for Lubuntu into a corner (They are experts at ninja hiding). I will ask the two guys if they have had news from Canonical as to if a2 will be built fully using the Canonical build system, and also a proposed date for the release.

Please do appreciate that it is a really small team, and not only are they getting lubuntu 11-10 ready for it's debut as 'fully adopted' but also developing it!

As soon as I have news, I will post here and ensure that the wiki area for Lubuntu 11-10 schedule is kept up to date (Our Head of dev looks after that).

As if that is not enough, they are also liasing with looking at making daily spins of the iso available. (Makes note to brush up on my rusty rsync skills).

Regards,

Phill.

Zsync is much easier :D

I'm a bit tied up ATM but hopefully I'll be able to fully engage within the next week.

ronacc
June 24th, 2011, 12:34 AM
when lubuntu A2 shows up I'll use my test box for seeding the torrent for a few days. and yes zsync is easier .

phillw
June 24th, 2011, 03:37 PM
Our head of dev has confirmed that Lubuntu are committed to the release schedule at Oneric Roadmap (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers#Roadmap)

Regards,

Phill.

MilkeySUFC
June 24th, 2011, 07:19 PM
Our head of dev has confirmed that Lubuntu are committed to the release schedule at Oneric Roadmap (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers#Roadmap)

Regards,

Phill.

I meant to thank you for your earlier confirmation about the updated release schedule. Not long after I asked the question, the schedule on the front page sticky was also updated.

Thanks again,
Milkey

kansasnoob
June 26th, 2011, 10:47 PM
Just a quick FYI:

I've had one problem after another here, the most time consuming have been related to storm damage, so it may take longer than I expected to really get up to speed with this (ppa's and all).

Just wanted Phill and all to know that I hadn't given up :)

kansasnoob
July 2nd, 2011, 10:07 PM
Just finally getting around to trying this ppa:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily?field.series_filter=oneiric

And I've not encountered a single problem :D

Although I don't use mplayer so I can't comment on that.

I hope Lubuntu is on the iso-testing list in a few days, but even if it isn't it's well worth the wait.

kansasnoob
July 9th, 2011, 02:46 PM
Haven't found any alpha2 images yet, but I noticed that not even Kubuntu produced an alpha2 image, so maybe we'll have to wait.

ronacc
July 9th, 2011, 03:10 PM
I've been looking for it too . I intend to seed the torrent for awhile when something shows up , let my test box do something usefull for awhile .

phillw
July 9th, 2011, 04:01 PM
In amongst several things I do to annoy the devs, was to remind them that alpha 2 was due. Having unlocked the cage where they are held, they ate the two security guys I had employed. This makes things awkward, devs a few and far between so I cannot shoot them dead. I'm awaiting for a Vet to arrive with those darn tranquiliser darts ;)

**** Ahh, in return for more security guards to eat, they have promised to work on it over the weekend ***


But, seriously, 2 devs who can even get their head round iso building the way Canonical do it along with full time jobs... They are working on it. I've been sort of promised it will arrive over the weekend.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
July 9th, 2011, 06:38 PM
In amongst several things I do to annoy the devs, was to remind them that alpha 2 was due. Having unlocked the cage where they are held, they ate the two security guys I had employed. This makes things awkward, devs a few and far between so I cannot shoot them dead. I'm awaiting for a Vet to arrive with those darn tranquiliser darts ;)

**** Ahh, in return for more security guards to eat, they have promised to work on it over the weekend ***


But, seriously, 2 devs who can even get their head round iso building the way Canonical do it along with full time jobs... They are working on it. I've been sort of promised it will arrive over the weekend.

Regards,

Phill.

I figured as much. I hope the security guards weren't close friends ;)

I wasn't really worried at all, although I must admit that I'm impatient about Lubuntu getting in on the official iso-testing .............. impatient but also realistic.

I was just reading some of the comments regarding Ubuntu Developer Week, particularly this list:


> 1. What is Lubuntu? (two sentence definition)
> 2. Why do we need abother *ubuntu flavour? (reason for our existence)
> 3. Who is it useful to? (intended audience)
> 4. How to get started (where to download, where to get help)
> 5. What do do when you have issues with it (where/how to report bugs)
> 6. Minimal hardware needed:
> 6.1 for GUI install
> 6.2 for manual install on very low RAM machines
> 7. Current known issues (point to FAQ)
> 8. What changes will Lubuntu Oneiric bring?
> 9. How you can help (testing/developing/translating/etc.)

And I'm trying to find an eloquent way of addressing 2 and 3 :)

I want to say Lubuntu is not just for old hardware anymore, because I truly believe that. PCManFM is just simple and intuitive as is the rest of the UI.

My two biggest complaints are the inability to increase the font of the clock and I can't for the life of me get the hardware temp applet to work in the panel.

Beyond those two things I can't think of a thing to complain about. Well, getting added to iso-testing makes three I guess ;)

I've never participated in Ubuntu Developer Week, would it be improper to ask for help from the QA team with getting added to iso-testing :confused:

Both of the computers I have hooked up to my new network ATM have way more than enough resources to run Lubuntu, both can even run Ubuntu (one only in 2D), but they're 1.5 and 1.6 MHZ CPU's w/2GB RAM each, and I notice such an improvement in flash video playback it's almost uncanny.

But I fear it could be a bad idea to bring up the fact that some Ubuntu users are not in love with Unity and they may find Lubuntu (or one of the other variants) more suitable to their needs and desires. And I wouldn't want to cause the demise of any more security guards :D

Thanks for all you do.

phillw
July 9th, 2011, 07:42 PM
My two biggest complaints are the inability to increase the font of the clock and I can't for the life of me get the hardware temp applet to work in the panel.




One of the guys did actually get that to work, the DM system does not exactly talk to that area. With the news that the devs are REALLY going for LightDM, even I am leaving them alone!


I have a cut off day of about Wednesday to get any slides done. But I am, really awaiting the 1st build of Lubuntu with the Canonical system.

Send on more human food :popcorn:


Regards,

Phill

stormelf
July 17th, 2011, 02:09 PM
Any sign of Lubuntu alpha 2?

Am I correct that a major difference between alpha 1 and alpha 2 is that from there on forward Lubuntu will be distributed through the official Canonical infrastructure just like Xubuntu?

Does that mean that we should expect alpha 2 to be available on this URL whenever it is released?
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/11.10/

E.g. just like the Xubuntu versjon
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/xubuntu/releases/11.10/

jmthomas
July 17th, 2011, 06:27 PM
I sure hope so. I have Lubuntu installed on my netbook and it really rocks.

They can keep Unity. Tried it (Natty) for a few days of regular work and just didn't like it.

phillw
July 17th, 2011, 09:21 PM
There is, as you know a delay in the release of alpha 2. This is to do with the repos. The head of dev is working on it. As soon as we get it released, I will ensure you all know where it is available from. Regardless of where it is officially hosted, there will be a link at GetLubuntu (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Lubuntu/GetLubuntu) so I can keep our docmentation area in synch with things :)

Regards,

Phill.

andrewabc
July 19th, 2011, 03:46 AM
I really hope so. I'm going to run liveusb for someones laptop whose HDD is extremely slow.

Trying to download alpha1 (torrent only), but not working.

So for now have to test 11.04 on liveusb to see how good it would work on laptop (dual core amd 64bit, amd graphics, 80gb hdd, 1gb ram). win vista so slow they don't use it much.

phillw
July 19th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Trying to download alpha1 (torrent only), but not working.



The download, or the usb stick?

If the torrent is down, as lubuntu is still small there may not be any seeders for an alpha. Please just use my server area to grab it from as a direct download. It is the 'server' option on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing

Regards,

Phill.

andrewabc
July 20th, 2011, 01:07 AM
The download, or the usb stick?

If the torrent is down, as lubuntu is still small there may not be any seeders for an alpha. Please just use my server area to grab it from as a direct download. It is the 'server' option on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Testing

Regards,

Phill.

11.10 alpha one torrent
http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/
http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/lubuntu-oneiric-alpha1.iso.torrent

I think I did download direct download from someone when it was released, but couldn't get liveusb to work on my computers (I think deleted it). So I'll just wait for latest alpha uploaded. 11.04 working fine on liveusb so far.

Only problem with 11.04 liveusb is that it showed 300 updates available, and it looked like 200 of them were language packs. I was installing them all but eventually ran out of room on my 4gb usb stick. So now only updating chromium and flash (since main purpose is web browsing).

phillw
July 20th, 2011, 12:34 PM
11.10 alpha one torrent
http://people.ubuntu.com/~gilir/

That link only stays live for about a week. Gives me time to get it onto my server (and others who host).



Only problem with 11.04 liveusb is that it showed 300 updates available, and it looked like 200 of them were language packs. I was installing them all but eventually ran out of room on my 4gb usb stick. So now only updating chromium and flash (since main purpose is web browsing).

I'll have a dig into this, I do recall it being mentioned but thought it had been resolved.

Regards,

Phill.

andrewabc
July 20th, 2011, 11:38 PM
Fresh 11.04 lubuntu liveusb
Update manager:
484 updates 277mb
I'd say about 1/2 to 2/3rds of updates are language packs. For firefox, gnome, translations, and translations updates. Lots of languages I don't need (I only need English).

Hopefully doesn't happen in 11.10.

ronacc
July 21st, 2011, 12:03 AM
they really need to do something about the language packs and localization in general , after the initial selection at install none of that crap should be even shown unless you specifically request it to be .

andrewabc
July 21st, 2011, 11:39 PM
they really need to do something about the language packs and localization in general , after the initial selection at install none of that crap should be even shown unless you specifically request it to be .

Just to be clear, I've never installed it. I just have it running as liveusb with a persistence file to store my data/config/updates.

It would be nice if it could ignore the translation updates. Maybe it does this because when usb boots it still asks for language? Or does it occur on fully installed lubuntu (to hard drive)?

phillw
July 22nd, 2011, 12:07 AM
Hi,

sorry for the delay. The nearest I can find is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/icedtea-web/+bug/766559 which was causing various problems.

It is marked as fixed and released, I have raised it on the mailing list to check as I'm sure there is a fix for it.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
July 22nd, 2011, 02:07 AM
I've not had much time to play lately, but I did manage to get my old Micron PII-335mhz w/256MB RAM to run Lubuntu Oneiric Alpha1 :)

I first tried Natty Lubuntu and no matter what I did it just failed. I'm curious what will happen with the Beta.

For what it's worth I think we're OK if we have to wait until 12.04 to get 100% on-board with the Ubuntu dev cycle :)

phillw
July 22nd, 2011, 04:09 PM
Hi,

Just to confirm that there will be no Alpha 2 of Lubuntu Oneiric. Works are in progress to make it usable. I hope to have an Alpha 3 to test.

For the build with Ubuntu ISO build system, we still blocked by
technical problems on Canonical side. I'll post when I have more news about it.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Phill.

andrewabc
July 22nd, 2011, 07:13 PM
Phill I see you wrote about language packs.
https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg04456.html

You should probably link to this thread (more specifically my post talking about lang packs).

I'm guessing the problem is that I'm running liveusb which comes with every language possible, and thus when I check for updates it wants to update every language. Hopefully in future a way to disable it. If I manually uncheck every langpack update will it remember it when I reboot? They suggest on mailing list to uninstall langpaks I don't need. Hopefully it would remember this (I tried deleting "install lubuntu" desktop icon, but I think it came back when rebooted.

kansasnoob
July 23rd, 2011, 12:58 AM
Update on my old Micron PII-335mhz CPU w/256MB RAM;

While painfully slow both Lubuntu 11.04 and 11.10 will run on it :D

Something that amazed me was that any version of Puppy I threw at it had trouble connecting to my wired connection through a Trendnet router :confused:

Lubuntu has no problem connecting, I thought that was cool.

But it's back in the closet for now, I'm finishing up the kitchen redo (bad drywall the first time) so I need the additional counter/table space ;)

I'm not at all concerned about the devs not putting out an Alpha 2. Even Ubuntu breakage is terrible ATM. I wonder how much of it has to do with gtk2 -> gtk3 :confused:

phillw
July 23rd, 2011, 01:49 AM
Even Ubuntu breakage is terrible ATM. I wonder how much of it has to do with gtk2 -> gtk3

For our graphics people (read person), it has been and remains 'interesting' for them. But Rafael is up to the task and with feedback is doing really well for such a stage in an alpha life (by the 'rules' we are part way between a2 and a3).

I'm adding the requested ppa to the a1 to better keep it up to date in the absence of the a2. For those not on the mailing list and still testing via a1, if you add


ppa:lubuntu-dev/staging

(please note that this PPA is for
testing only, use it only if you want to report bugs).

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
July 23rd, 2011, 02:41 PM
For our graphics people (read person), it has been and remains 'interesting' for them. But Rafael is up to the task and with feedback is doing really well for such a stage in an alpha life (by the 'rules' we are part way between a2 and a3).

I'm adding the requested ppa to the a1 to better keep it up to date in the absence of the a2. For those not on the mailing list and still testing via a1, if you add


ppa:lubuntu-dev/staging


Regards,

Phill.

I've been using the daily ppa:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily

I wonder if I'd dare mix the two :confused:

kansasnoob
July 23rd, 2011, 02:49 PM
Second dumb question of the morning :redface:

I've recently been playing with adding "lubuntu-core" to a running Ubuntu as an alternative DE.

In Natty it's really spiffy with the Lubuntu Desktop PPA:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+archive/ppa

One thing I always notice though is "galculator" is installed as a dependency. Do you think I should report that as a bug, or maybe just mention it on the mailing list?

This is a typical apt-log from installing "lubuntu-core":


Install: libobrender21:i386 (3.4.11.2-2, automatic), lxsession:i386 (0.4.5-1ubuntu1, automatic), libobparser21:i386 (3.4.11.2-2, automatic), openbox-themes:i386 (1.0.2, automatic), galculator:i386 (1.3.4-1ubuntu3, automatic), obconf:i386 (2.0.3-3ubuntu2, automatic), lubuntu-default-settings:i386 (0.19), lubuntu-icon-theme:i386 (0.15, automatic), lubuntu-artwork:i386 (0.15), plymouth-theme-lubuntu-text:i386 (0.15), pcmanfm:i386 (0.9.8+git-6240436419-0ubuntu1, automatic), lubuntu-core:i386 (0.25), libfm-gtk0:i386 (0.1.15+git-3625952cea-0ubuntu2, automatic), giblib1:i386 (1.2.4-6, automatic), openbox:i386 (3.4.11.2-2), elementary-icon-theme:i386 (2.7.1-0ubuntu3, automatic), lxmenu-data:i386 (0.1.1-1, automatic), libfm0:i386 (0.1.15+git-3625952cea-0ubuntu2, automatic), lxpanel:i386 (0.5.6-1ubuntu5), scrot:i386 (0.8-13, automatic), libimlib2:i386 (1.4.4-1, automatic), libmenu-cache1:i386 (0.3.2-2ubuntu2, automatic), plymouth-theme-lubuntu-logo:i386 (0.15)
End-Date: 2011-07-22 12:48:01

phillw
July 23rd, 2011, 04:14 PM
Second dumb question of the morning :redface:

I've recently been playing with adding "lubuntu-core" to a running Ubuntu as an alternative DE.

In Natty it's really spiffy with the Lubuntu Desktop PPA:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-desktop/+archive/ppa

One thing I always notice though is "galculator" is installed as a dependency. Do you think I should report that as a bug, or maybe just mention it on the mailing list?

This is a typical apt-log from installing "lubuntu-core":


I'd bug report it.

Regards,

Phill.

phillw
July 23rd, 2011, 04:17 PM
I've been using the daily ppa:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily

I wonder if I'd dare mix the two :confused:

Sorry, I cannot help you there. I have not been using the daily ppa.

Reply to the email re: no alpha2 and ask which is the best set up, I'm sure Julien or Jonathan will be happy to answer.

Regards,

Phill.

phillw
July 24th, 2011, 04:41 PM
I've been using the daily ppa:

https://launchpad.net/~lubuntu-dev/+archive/lubuntu-daily

I wonder if I'd dare mix the two :confused:

As you will have read on the ML, probably not a good idea. I include the answer here for anyone else following the thread
lubuntu-dev/lubuntu-daily PPA is still a work in progress. It's probably not a good idea to mixed them.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
July 24th, 2011, 06:21 PM
As you will have read on the ML, probably not a good idea. I include the answer here for anyone else following the thread

Regards,

Phill.

Yes, that's cool :)

Considering the size of the Lubuntu dev team I'm always amazed at how quickly they respond. That includes you my good friend. You're a vital link in the project :D

AFAIK you're responsible for a great deal (or perhaps all) of the Lubuntu documentation. I hope to someday be able to become a greater asset to Lubuntu, until then I'll continue to be a thorn in your side :lolflag:

I plan on doing some other test installs ASAP. I'll keep the one with the daily ppa, but install another to test only the staging ppa, and I'll DL an Ubuntu daily to test that "galculator" dependency issue.

Right now I'm fighting a wasp problem that's delaying my re-remodeling/fire restoration project :(

phillw
July 25th, 2011, 05:23 PM
......AFAIK you're responsible for a great deal (or perhaps all) of the Lubuntu documentation.......

The sub teams keep their own areas up to date, and with the IRC support guys now having created their own FAQ area, even as a small team we can react pretty quickly to an issue. Everyone is encouraged to contribute to the wiki areas, even if a write up only helps one other person it is still a person helped.

Good luck with the wasps!

Regards,

Phill.

phillw
July 27th, 2011, 12:06 AM
For those not on the mailing list. Lubuntu 11.10 hit a massive milestone today. A successful build using the Canonical build system. With this milestone, the testing changes a little.



(23:21:53) gilir: phillw, don't use the lubuntu-daily, it's not ready yet
(23:22:3 gilir: phillw, use lubuntu-dev/staging only if you want to test and report bugs about the artwork from Raphael
If you would like to help out on testing, then the release is at Lubuntu Current (http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/)
For now, it's too big for a CD, but will be fixed for the stable release. Please use those images indead of the daily PPA if you want to test the latest version of Lubuntu.

For those willing to test, please do ensure you are aware of Developers (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers)
and ensure you are on the mailing list. Lubuntu is light, and very quick on its feet.... We will get some documentation up a.s.a.p. for it but it has already gotten out to such places as Webupd8

Julien, our head of dev is having a richly deserved beer to celebrate. I ask that we toast also to the work that all those people put in, without such people there would be no F/OSS.


Regards,

Phill.

cariboo
July 27th, 2011, 03:42 AM
This is the official notice:


Hi Ubuntu developers,

New images have pop up on cdimage.ubuntu.com [1]. Finally, Lubuntu is
out of the Ubuntu factory [2]

For people who don't know Lubuntu, this is a quick presentation. Lubuntu
is a distribution based on Ubuntu, and the LXDE desktop environnement.
The main goal is to provide a very lightweight distribution, but with
all the advantages of the Ubuntu world (repositories, support ...).
Currently we are using :
- Chromium for the browser
- Openbox for the windows manager
- Pcmanfm for the file manager
- Abiword + Gnumeric for office work
- Pidgin for IM
- Audacious for playing music
- Gnome-mplayer for videos
- Some GNOME components : evince, file-roller, gnome-keyring
- Most of the LXDE components
You can find the complete list of applications by default on the wiki
[3].

After 2 years of work, and 3 "unofficial" releases (10.04, 10.10 and
11.04), we had recently an official go from the Technical Board and ISO
images are now made like other Ubuntu flavors. I hope the 11.10 will be
the 1st official release of Lubuntu as a member of the Ubuntu family

We have 2 important particularities. Like Xubuntu, we use another
GTK-based desktop environnement than GNOME, and we try to avoid
unnecessary GNOME depends which could slow the system. We need some
GNOME parts because LXDE doesn't provide all necessary components. It's
the reason why we are very careful about dependencies of those
applications.

We are also very strict with ressources requirement. It's the reason why
we don't include all Ubuntu specific applications. For example, we don't
include Software-Center because it's still a bit heavy for some of our
targets.

I would like to thanks all people who make this happen, especially Mark,
Colin and Emmet, and all people involved in the development of Lubuntu
and LXDE.

If you want to talk to the Lubuntu community, you can use our mailing
list (lubuntu-desktop@lists.launchpad.net) or IRC : #lubuntu on
Freenode. You can also find information on our wiki [3].

Thanks for your attention

Regards,
Julien Lavergne


[1] http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/
[2] It's still young images, which for now, are oversized, don't load
the desktop session, and have wrong splash images .. they should be
better in the futur
[3] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Applications
[4] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu

phillw
July 28th, 2011, 09:58 PM
Hi,

I asked about when the alternate iso could be expected and after a few checks, it appears it should have been automatically spawned.

Julien has looked into it and has spotted something, so hopefully we will have it arrive on the next daily build.


> I guess only 32 and 64 bits are available for daily build, and
> alternate
> and armel (?) are produced only for releases (Alpha, Beta etc ..)

Actually, it's maybe a bug in the seed. I'll add a fix, and we will see
tomorrow (I love daily builds :p) if it's working.

Regards,

Phill.

cariboo
July 28th, 2011, 11:51 PM
I installed the daily live on an 8GiB SD card for use in my netbook last night, I've found lots of bugs :). I've only reported the one I felt was a showstopper last night, bcmwl won't install, and I expect to report several more later today.

The sort of strange thing was that I use a Retail Plus+ USB wireless device based on a ZyDAS ZD1218B that is detected automagically, to do the updates and install the driver for the internal wireless device, but I don't want to use it for day-to-day usage.

phillw
July 29th, 2011, 01:45 AM
...... I've only reported the one I felt was a showstopper last night......


you are doing better than me, it failed to run on my VM, as the alpha1 does, I'm not too sure what the issue is. VM's can only provide so much help.

but, early days yet, I've had my computer more broken on previous testing than this ;)

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
July 31st, 2011, 01:28 PM
Just testing a new 10.04.3 Lubuntu iso and I needed a place to post a screenshot ;)

198919

VMC
July 31st, 2011, 02:17 PM
Just testing a new 10.04.3 Lubuntu iso and I needed a place to post a screenshot ;)

198919

That's a screenshot of the install portion. I was hoping to see the the installed desktop. Is it 64bit now?

kansasnoob
July 31st, 2011, 03:11 PM
That's a screenshot of the install portion. I was hoping to see the the installed desktop. Is it 64bit now?

I received a message today about testing 10.04.3 images - nothing to do with 11.10 :(

You can look at my responses here:

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/

Scroll down to the area shown here (I'm Lance):

198922

My take on that is, based on Jonathan's first post there, we're still learning:

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg04522.html

In my last post I reminded him that Oneiric Alpha3 is upon us:

https://lists.launchpad.net/lubuntu-desktop/msg04533.html

ATM the Lubuntu daily is still at the 25th, and doesn't work well, although it will install:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/

We're still just in early days of becoming "official" so we're all experiencing a learning curve. But I'm positive we'll get there :D

phillw
July 31st, 2011, 04:46 PM
Or lack of.... I've just asked Julien about this.


(16:38:15) phillw: gilir: the daily builds are not appearing at http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/ Is there a gremlin at work?
(16:43:54) gilir: phillw, No, I don't know why it's not updated since 07/25 :/

I guess we wait :(

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 1st, 2011, 05:30 PM
@ Phill,

With Jonathan uploading images (and md5's) to your server is there a way to search it?

I just noticed a message from Jonathan verifying that my md5sum was correct and the file was on your server but I tried and couldn't figure out how to find it :confused:

It's not a big deal and there's no need to go out of your way to reply :D

I see the Ubuntu alpha3 iso-testing images are already being prepared so I may not be available for a couple of days. I expect a couple of rebuilds.

phillw
August 1st, 2011, 09:18 PM
@ Phill,

With Jonathan uploading images (and md5's) to your server is there a way to search it?

I just noticed a message from Jonathan verifying that my md5sum was correct and the file was on your server but I tried and couldn't figure out how to find it :confused:



As Jonathan is real busy atm (I really did not expect him to even attempt the respin for a 10.04.3 with all the things going on RL and with Lubuntu). I will look at putting a search onto it, but it is a temporary server area. It was supposed to be for a couple of months and is now well over a year. Life gets complicated.....

I'll have a 'play' and see if I can create a quick page that will list all the various iso's and md5's that live on there.

Regards,

Phill.

phillw
August 1st, 2011, 11:00 PM
(22:33:49) gilir: new ISO available, for adventurous testers :) http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/
(22:34:29) gilir: I already reported several issues, be sure to check the bug tracker before reporting bugs :)

hot off the press :)

regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 3rd, 2011, 12:52 PM
We're gaining all the time :D

I've been trying to figure out exactly how to go about transitioning from Ubuntu iso-testing to Lubuntu iso-testing. I know that sounds simple, and I could simply change my subscriptions from no Ubuntu testing to only Lubuntu testing and I may do that at some point.

With the total rebuild of ubiquity (the live installer) beginning with Maverick installation testing certainly became more complex. I used to just begin by creating a casper-rw partition, checking disc integrity, then running a persistent session to check the live CD, and then performing three tests:

Entire disc install
Auto-resize install
Manual partitioning install

But the new ubiquity actually provides many more options:

Entire disc install
Manual partitioning install
BUT the "auto-resize" now breaks down into several categories:

Install alongside may provide an auto-resize or it may just use any existing free space ..........

Or, if only one previous Linux install exists, it may offer to replace it, or if it's an Ubuntu variant it may offer to upgrade it .............

Or, if Windows exists it may offer to resize, replace, or if 4 primary partitions exist it will offer a Wubi install.

And I also do an Ubuntu upgrade test. (ATM there is no Lubuntu upgrade test).

Also I need to follow up on two ubiquity specific bugs:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/766265

And:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/819538

I'm actually partly responsible for the latter issue :oops:

I've been trying to figure out exactly how to crowd all of my testing into an appropriate time frame, and I also have a new hardware wish-list :)

Now that Lubuntu is officially in iso-testing I think when Alpha 3 testing is done I'll change my Ubuntu subscription to only testing the live CD, performing a manual install, and doing the upgrade.

Then I should be able to do a full round of testing with the Lubuntu images, and I have a couple of old 3GB ATA drives I should be able to use for testing that one bug - I hope. (I do wonder what would happen though if I used a 4GB flash drive and formatted it to ext4?)

Then if I buy one more hard drive I should be able to pull most of this off without pulling all my hair out :lolflag:

cariboo
August 3rd, 2011, 03:49 PM
@kansasnoob

An install on a flash drive should work well, I have Lubuntu installed on an 8GiB SD card, and although it isn't as fast as a hard drive install, it works well enough for testing.

phillw
August 3rd, 2011, 04:59 PM
Hi, the dailies are back... Not the full suite as yet, but the three we had previously.

I'm currently using VM's for installing, as the milestone RC's come up for alpa3, betas, final. I'll use VM, then hard-drive install them. As always, thanks for the continued help with the testing :)

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 3rd, 2011, 10:12 PM
@kansasnoob

An install on a flash drive should work well, I have Lubuntu installed on an 8GiB SD card, and although it isn't as fast as a hard drive install, it works well enough for testing.

I think I'll try that, but clear back when flash drives were a new thing everyone said FAT was the only way to go.

Even now I use FAT32 for my flash data drives. But I see I can now get a 4GB flash drive for about $7.00 although I'm likely to spend a bit more and go for Crucial. I've just had excellent luck with Crucial.

phillw
August 4th, 2011, 01:01 AM
..... I see I can now get a 4GB flash drive for about $7.00 although I'm likely to spend a bit more and go for Crucial. I've just had excellent luck with Crucial.....
Hiyas,

I always recommended people buy a flash drive that is MicroSoft 'Ready Boost' certified for Live-USB use. These were both faster chips and more redundancy in built as they were certified to be little plug in 'RAM-disks', albeit a hell of a lot slower than RAM. I've been very happy with mine, and others who have bought them have not reported any failures (unlike with various 'cheap and cheerful' ones). Just be expected to pay about 2 - 4 times the price, but they are put through a decent level of secondary QA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost is the general area on them, and they are win7 so must still be available.

Oh, and there is a request in to 'politely' ask Ubiquity to not demand 4.6GB of disk space as the minimum for Lubuntu, whether we get it approved, who knows... I really do hope they grant it. I think the issue of wanting twice as much RAM as required has also been raised.

Regards,

Phill.

VMC
August 4th, 2011, 04:31 AM
kansas,

I haven't used Lubuntu for quite a while now. Maybe its time to start. It uses LXDE interface correct?
I've read of recent errors, more so than Ubuntu. To be expected. Once they get completely on board, things should be better.

I will stay with Lucid and KDE Oneiric, Kubuntu, for the time being.


Here's an interesting article regarding Gnome3 and Linus comments (http://www.osnews.com/story/25022/Linus_Torvalds_Not_a_Fan_of_Gnome_3). Linus himself uses Xfce, which I don't particularly like, or rather I don't like Xubuntu version.

kansasnoob
August 4th, 2011, 01:51 PM
I had to do a bit of searching but here's where I began to mess up the minumum disc space requirement:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/745148

More here:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1719301

But regarding Lubuntu I can see that it does require less space, but also the "manual/something else" option should I believe allow one to bypass that "requirement" just like you can bypass the requirement to be on a wired network.

But I need to get a drive that's small enough to do some actual testing. For Lubuntu I think the actual installation requires only about 2.15 GB for / so I'd think a person could conceivably use even a 3 GB drive, create only a / partition w/no swap, and once the installation is complete create a swap file (or create no swap at all if the RAM is sufficient size).

It appears from the current round of iso-testing that even Ubuntu uses about 3 1/4 GB so even with Ubuntu one should be able to use a 4 GB drive if choosing a manual install with low or no swap.

Testing, testing, testing :D

I think I also notice a regression in ubiquity regarding the Wubi if 4 primaries exist option but I need to do some further testing to be sure.

A lot of what I can do is limited by financial constraints which I'm sure everyone here faces from time to time :(

kansasnoob
August 4th, 2011, 02:01 PM
kansas,

I haven't used Lubuntu for quite a while now. Maybe its time to start. It uses LXDE interface correct?
I've read of recent errors, more so than Ubuntu. To be expected. Once they get completely on board, things should be better.

I will stay with Lucid and KDE Oneiric, Kubuntu, for the time being.


Here's an interesting article regarding Gnome3 and Linus comments (http://www.osnews.com/story/25022/Linus_Torvalds_Not_a_Fan_of_Gnome_3). Linus himself uses Xfce, which I don't particularly like, or rather I don't like Xubuntu version.

I love Linus' comments beginning with:


While you are at it, could you also fork gnome, and support a gnome-2 environment?

I want my sane interfaces back. I have yet to meet anybody who likes the unholy mess that is gnome-3.

https://plus.google.com/106327083461132854143/posts/SbnL3KaVRtM

I can certainly see why SABDFL decided to go with Unity. I find Unity much preferable to the standard gnome-shell UI.

But this is OT so let's concentrate on Lubuntu, which I still find to have a very "sane" UI :D

It'd be great to post this at the Cafe if no one has already. Thanks for the info.

lucazade
August 4th, 2011, 02:22 PM
I prefer this quote by Linus (2008 )


An o/s should never have been something that people (in general) really care about: it should be completely invisible and nobody should give a flying[expletive deleted] about it except the technical people

kansasnoob
August 4th, 2011, 02:42 PM
I prefer this quote by Linus (2008 )

Seems almost contradictory to what he's now saying, eh?

I'd ask respectfully that we not go any further off topic in this thread though. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have even posted what I said in post #163 :(

I did however want to recognize VMC's comments, just as I'm doing with you know. I truly do respect everyone's opinions and everyone here, including you, has helped me immensely a number of times :D

These are times of great change and it's hard for all of us, no matter what our preferences happen to be, to avoid expressing our personal likes and dislikes of these changes.

lucazade
August 4th, 2011, 02:55 PM
Seems almost contradictory to what he's now saying, eh?

I'd ask respectfully that we not go any further off topic in this thread though. In retrospect I probably shouldn't have even posted what I said in post #163 :(

I did however want to recognize VMC's comments, just as I'm doing with you know. I truly do respect everyone's opinions and everyone here, including you, has helped me immensely a number of times :D

These are times of great change and it's hard for all of us, no matter what our preferences happen to be, to avoid expressing our personal likes and dislikes of these changes.

bravo
+1

kansasnoob
August 4th, 2011, 03:34 PM
Hiyas,

I always recommended people buy a flash drive that is MicroSoft 'Ready Boost' certified for Live-USB use. These were both faster chips and more redundancy in built as they were certified to be little plug in 'RAM-disks', albeit a hell of a lot slower than RAM. I've been very happy with mine, and others who have bought them have not reported any failures (unlike with various 'cheap and cheerful' ones). Just be expected to pay about 2 - 4 times the price, but they are put through a decent level of secondary QA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReadyBoost is the general area on them, and they are win7 so must still be available.

Oh, and there is a request in to 'politely' ask Ubiquity to not demand 4.6GB of disk space as the minimum for Lubuntu, whether we get it approved, who knows... I really do hope they grant it. I think the issue of wanting twice as much RAM as required has also been raised.

Regards,

Phill.

I think within the next week or so I'll try fiddling with one or both of these old 3GB ATA drives.

I think on my old VIA box with 2GB of RAM I should be able to install Lubuntu with no swap and then add either a swap file or create a swap partition on another drive that I reconnect later.

I can't really hook up that old PII 335mhz box with 256MB RAM ATM because I have no space :(

Trying to get my kitchen put back together has stuff strewn all over, it's like living in a shoe box almost :)

kansasnoob
August 4th, 2011, 05:57 PM
Well I figured out my monthly budget and decided I could spend $100 US on puter toys which amounted to a new Hannspree 18.5 inch wide-screen monitor so I can hopefully move my KVM switch to sharing my old VIA box and the old PII on it, and then have my Intel box using the 22" monitor all alone.

That $100 also includes a WD refurb 80GB drive so I can more easily perform some of the ubiquity install options by just plugging or unplugging a drive, and also one of these 4GB flash drives:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313060

I had been going to use that money for either a Roku box or a WD TV box but that only allows "watching" for the most part (although the newest wired Roku has angry birds) and I'd rather put my money and my effort into something that's totally interactive.

In my entire life I've never found anything more interactive than participating in the Ubuntu forums :D

Now I need to clean and paint like crazy so I can get this stuff all hooked up when the UPS truck shows up :guitar:

phillw
August 5th, 2011, 02:15 AM
....I had to do a bit of searching but here's where I began to mess up the minumum disc space requirement:

....(
IMHO, the problem is Ubiquity.

I have a very happy install of lubuntu 10.04 on a 2GB stick with about 500MB free for data.

It really puzzles me why the 'powers above' decided that an install needed twice the requirements for both RAM and HD space.

I'm sorry to say, but this alteration should NEVER have got through SRU, but we were not a part of the 'official' stuff back then.

I could rant about things, but the most important thing is that Lubuntu stays true to itself?.... The answer is yes :)

Regards,

phillw

phillw
August 5th, 2011, 01:50 PM
Hi, for those not on the mailing list :P



Hi,

Lubuntu Alpha 3 is released, and for the first time, along with other Ubuntu images :
http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/releases/oneiric/alpha-3/

You can have a look at the official announcement of Ubuntu Alpha 3 ;)

This is a quick overview of this milestone :
New features for Oneiric :
- ISOs build with official build system
- Many updates from LXDE (most components had a official releases)
- Build with recommends packages by default
- Use recommends instead of depends for most of components of
lubuntu-desktop
- Register correctly LXDE as a desktop environment by xdg tools
- Switch to xfce4-power-manager for power management
- Add a microblog client : pidgin-microblog

Known issues
- No alternate ISO available, I hope it will be fixed shortly after the alpha 3 release.
- Using LXDM instead of Lightdm until configuration files are handle
correctly
- Include apt-xapian-index, which should be removed later
- Jockey crashes on start : http://pad.lv/819506
- Missing icons in the menu : http://pad.lv/819525
- No indicators on lxpanel : http://pad.lv/819528
- Installer require 4.6 Gb of free space : http://pad.lv/819538
- Gwibber install by default : http://pad.lv/819519
- GTK3 applications doesn't have a theme : http://pad.lv/819529
- Generic icon for network-manager : http://pad.lv/796147
- Generic icon for jockey : http://pad.lv/819542

Please remember that it's still an Alpha, we have still some times to test and fix the remaining issues.

Regards,
Julien Lavergne

Do feel free to have a try of it!

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
August 5th, 2011, 07:01 PM
I'm seeding the 64 bit and will add the 32 bit as soon as it finishes d/l'ing .

kansasnoob
August 5th, 2011, 10:51 PM
IMHO, the problem is Ubiquity.

I have a very happy install of lubuntu 10.04 on a 2GB stick with about 500MB free for data.

It really puzzles me why the 'powers above' decided that an install needed twice the requirements for both RAM and HD space.

I'm sorry to say, but this alteration should NEVER have got through SRU, but we were not a part of the 'official' stuff back then.

I could rant about things, but the most important thing is that Lubuntu stays true to itself?.... The answer is yes :)

Regards,

phillw

I think we're on different pages here :confused:

I think you're talking about space for a live USB and I need to test an actual hard drive installation via ubiquity, and recent testing shows / uses about 2.3GB + whatever swap would be created, generally 2X the amount of RAM.

So even that old PII 335mhz cpu w/256 MB RAM would use nearly a full 3GB with almost no room to store data or install additional apps, but it should be possible :)

From everything I've read using ext as a file system on flash drives wears them out very quickly, so I got serious about digging up old hardware.

I seriously think I should be able to install Lubuntu using the live CD (right now DVD because it's oversize) to a 3.2GB hard drive. (I'd previously said I had 2 old 3GB drives but they're actually 3.2GB).

Right now I'm trying to get part of my kitchen put back together but hopefully when UPS shows up Monday or Tuesday I'll be able to begin some more testing :D

OT but I also need to test an old PCI Diamond Stealth GPU and I want to do it with that new 18.5" Monitor so if I fry it I have exchange capabilities :)

Does that make me bad?

ronacc
August 6th, 2011, 12:04 AM
just for grins I'll see what a minimum install of a3-64bit takes , I need to do a 64 bit install anyway . and BTW you can do an install with no swap and also use one swap for several installs .

andrewabc
August 6th, 2011, 12:09 AM
Bad news.

Installed alpha 3 on liveusb. It starts fine and loads desktop.

Networking icon at bottom right is missing (gives the "no icon" icon). I select the icon and it says "Networking enabled" and "wireless enabled" (both have charkmarks. connection information is greyed out and edit connections is available). But there is no wireless connection listed. With 11.04 it automatically lists a connection available to connect to (and even does the popup at top right of screen to notify me that it is available). With this alpha there is no wireless to connect to. No idea how to connect to my wireless connection other than maybe going into wireless settings and having to manually enter in the SSID of my wireless router??

I went into "Additional Drivers" to see if maybe it was needing a wireless driver (Didn't before, but I know other laptops sometimes asks for it), but there were no drivers available.

This is on a nettop. Intel atom N270. eeebox b202

So any suggestions? Why wireless work with 11.04 before but now it doesn't?

The nettop doesn't really have access to ethernet cable to see if that even works. I'll probably try normal ubuntu alpha 3 to see if similar problem.

phillw
August 6th, 2011, 12:49 AM
I have a 2GB stick, lubuntu leaves me about 700MB free. I really do scratch my head when people say 'it needs this' etc.

I have a 'persistant' install on that little critter. and, yes, it is the speed-boost certified stick that I advise people to get.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 6th, 2011, 12:58 AM
I have a 2GB stick, lubuntu leaves me about 700MB free. I really do scratch my head when people say 'it needs this' etc.

I have a 'persistant' install on that little critter. and, yes, it is the speed-boost certified stick that I advise people to get.

Regards,

Phill.

But I'm not talking about persistent "live". I'm talking about actually installing Lubuntu using the live installer (aka: ubiquity) to a hard drive :)

kansasnoob
August 6th, 2011, 01:14 AM
Bad news.

Installed alpha 3 on liveusb. It starts fine and loads desktop.

Networking icon at bottom right is missing (gives the "no icon" icon). I select the icon and it says "Networking enabled" and "wireless enabled" (both have charkmarks. connection information is greyed out and edit connections is available). But there is no wireless connection listed. With 11.04 it automatically lists a connection available to connect to (and even does the popup at top right of screen to notify me that it is available). With this alpha there is no wireless to connect to. No idea how to connect to my wireless connection other than maybe going into wireless settings and having to manually enter in the SSID of my wireless router??

I went into "Additional Drivers" to see if maybe it was needing a wireless driver (Didn't before, but I know other laptops sometimes asks for it), but there were no drivers available.

This is on a nettop. Intel atom N270. eeebox b202

So any suggestions? Why wireless work with 11.04 before but now it doesn't?

The nettop doesn't really have access to ethernet cable to see if that even works. I'll probably try normal ubuntu alpha 3 to see if similar problem.

I'm hardly a wireless pro, in fact I'd say I'm a wireless dummy :P

But with my sons netbook I've had to use wicd for quite some time, maybe since about Karmic.

Of course installing wicd requires either a wired connection or using a chroot like this:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=8068512&postcount=10

NOTE: Since Natty it's no longer necessary to go through this crap:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LucidLynx/ReleaseNotes#Upstart_jobs_cannot_be_run_in_a_chroo t

The same has been true even upstream in Debian ........... I don't know why :confused:

phillw
August 6th, 2011, 01:45 AM
But I'm not talking about persistent "live". I'm talking about actually installing Lubuntu using the live installer (aka: ubiquity) to a hard drive :)

And, for a small disk installation is there a difference?

computer boots up, you work, and it saves everything? I am obviously missing something in my logic. Is it the word persistent that troubles people? I always thought of a system that saved what you did was an advantage :confused:

Regards,

Phill.

ronacc
August 6th, 2011, 02:59 AM
I think what kansas means is that a live cd ( or stick) install is not the same as a hd install . With the live cd there are no physical directories ( or not the same ones as on a hd install ) they are virtual directories living inside a compressed file system .

kansasnoob
August 6th, 2011, 06:19 PM
And, for a small disk installation is there a difference?

computer boots up, you work, and it saves everything? I am obviously missing something in my logic. Is it the word persistent that troubles people? I always thought of a system that saved what you did was an advantage :confused:

Regards,

Phill.

How are you installing to the flash drive?

By booting the Live CD and then clicking on install?

Or using the USB-creator (aka: Startup Disc Creator)?

Or something else?

phillw
August 6th, 2011, 07:02 PM
I am naughty, putting a persistant install on to a hard drive has what problems? I really do fail to see the difference between a small hard drive and a USB stick.

Whilst Ubiquity addresses the out standing issues of RAM and HD requirement, it is indeed a dirty little hack. But, it works :)

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 6th, 2011, 08:33 PM
I am naughty, putting a persistant install on to a hard drive has what problems? I really do fail to see the difference between a small hard drive and a USB stick.

Whilst Ubiquity addresses the out standing issues of RAM and HD requirement, it is indeed a dirty little hack. But, it works :)

Regards,

Phill.

I've never tried it, but AFAIK live installs boot using syslinux and casper, whereas actual installs would commonly use grub. But you can boot live images with grub2. And what ronacc said :D

I'm just focusing on that one bug where ubiquity doesn't seem to allow installations if the disc space is not within a set limit. IMHO using the manual (aka: Something else) option should override any set parameters in ubiquity regardless ................... that's what I need to test for :)

A fully automated installation does some things that I don't fully understand. I have two sets of hardware that I commonly use now:

Box #1:
JetWay JATOM-GM1-230-LF Motherboard
Intel Atom 230 CPU @ 1.60GHz
System Memory 2GB DIMM
Intel 82945G/GZ Integrated Graphics
Intel N10/ICH 7 Family High Def Audio Controller

Box #2:
VIA PC2500 Mainboard
VIA Esther C7 CPU 1500MHz
System Memory 2GB DIMM
VT8233/A/8235/8237 AC97 Audio Controller
CN700/P4M800 Pro/P4M800 CE/VN800 [S3 UniChrome Pro] Graphics

But oddly using the fully automated installer wants to create more swap space on the older VIA box than it does on the Intel box, about 50% more. Why?

It really makes no sense to me since both have 2GB of RAM :confused:

But IMHO the manual install via the Live CD/DVD/USB should always allow installation unless there truly is insufficient space ............. much in the same way that one can install with no internet connection at all.

I should be able to run a bunch of these tests quite soon. IMHO I should be able to install Lubuntu to one of these 3.2GB drives. If not I should be able to provide some feedback at that bug report.

ronacc
August 7th, 2011, 12:01 AM
I have got something really bizzare going on here . I burned the 64bit iso to a dvd using xfburn , wouldn't boot , tried burning it with k3b from ubuntu , wouldn't boot .tried burning it on a different box , wouldn't boot tried booting each of the " coasters " on the different box , they all booted . Tried a previously burned Ubuntu a3 that I had used to reinstall my ubuntu ( gnome-shell ) partition , it booted , tried burning the lubuntu 32bit .iso using xfburn it boots . The bizzare thing is that the 64bit .iso's will boot on one box but not the other , tried puting it on a usb stick no luck there either . I'm going to re d/l the 64bit .iso and see if anything changes .

kansasnoob
August 7th, 2011, 01:21 AM
I have got something really bizzare going on here . I burned the 64bit iso to a dvd using xfburn , wouldn't boot , tried burning it with k3b from ubuntu , wouldn't boot .tried burning it on a different box , wouldn't boot tried booting each of the " coasters " on the different box , they all booted . Tried a previously burned Ubuntu a3 that I had used to reinstall my ubuntu ( gnome-shell ) partition , it booted , tried burning the lubuntu 32bit .iso using xfburn it boots . The bizzare thing is that the 64bit .iso's will boot on one box but not the other , tried puting it on a usb stick no luck there either . I'm going to re d/l the 64bit .iso and see if anything changes .

I have no 64 bit hardware but I noticed a butt-load of bugs with 64-bit Lubuntu:

http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/test/6095

ronacc
August 7th, 2011, 01:58 AM
I am all ( well 99.9% ) 64 bit here . Back when AMD came out with the first athalon 64 I swore off 32 bit . The only concession I have made is an eeepc that I got when they first came out , everything else is 64bit and as a mater of principle I refuse to run ( with a few specific exceptions ) a 32bit OS on 64bit hdw

garvinrick4
August 7th, 2011, 08:45 AM
Running 64 bit 11.04 lubuntu with 3.0.1 oneiric kernel from:
Index of /~kernel-ppa/mainline (http://kernel.ubuntu.com/%7Ekernel-ppa/mainline/)
Need "module-init-tools 3.13.1 have in .deb package launchpad.
Running fine, I use 3.0 and up because it uses intels iwlagn driver at N speeds
where 2.6. would only use G, had to config file out the N of your card with iwlagn driver.
Anyway runs fine:

kansasnoob
August 8th, 2011, 02:09 AM
Running 64 bit 11.04 lubuntu with 3.0.1 oneiric kernel from:
Index of /~kernel-ppa/mainline (http://kernel.ubuntu.com/%7Ekernel-ppa/mainline/)
Need "module-init-tools 3.13.1 have in .deb package launchpad.
Running fine, I use 3.0 and up because it uses intels iwlagn driver at N speeds
where 2.6. would only use G, had to config file out the N of your card with iwlagn driver.
Anyway runs fine:

That's great info. Since I use only wired networking I wouldn't have known that.

phillw
August 9th, 2011, 01:25 AM
Watching the capital of my country burn with riots does not really leave me in a good a frame of mind. I am old enough to recall that last time all this happened in the UK.

My thoughts on dealing with such rampant violence are not on the 'left' side. In the UK, our police force are one of the few not to be routinely armed & we do not have water cannon / tear gas / rubber bullets for the main part of UK. I fear that this may change.

If I could please ask that you raise bug report things, that is the 'official' way of tracking bugs & something lubuntu, and all variants must use.
the devs do not read the forums .

I'm really sorry for not being around as much as I usually am. We all love our own country's, and things happen...

Regards,

Phill.

slavinzing56
August 9th, 2011, 02:18 AM
I also have done many HD installs of puppy , I really like the way it handles random networks .

ronacc
August 9th, 2011, 03:00 AM
I also have done many HD installs of puppy , I really like the way it handles random networks .

I find it quite disappointing that the " major distros " can't seem to handle networking and initial display setup as well as Barry does with Puppy .

northwestuntu
August 9th, 2011, 04:34 AM
i havent used lubuntu for about a year now. im glad to hear a 64 bit version is out now. always thought it was missing out on a lot of users who want a 64 version. i look forward to testing this out on my new hardware i just bought.

kansasnoob
August 9th, 2011, 03:51 PM
Watching the capital of my country burn with riots does not really leave me in a good a frame of mind. I am old enough to recall that last time all this happened in the UK.

My thoughts on dealing with such rampant violence are not on the 'left' side. In the UK, our police force are one of the few not to be routinely armed & we do not have water cannon / tear gas / rubber bullets for the main part of UK. I fear that this may change.

If I could please ask that you raise bug report things, that is the 'official' way of tracking bugs & something lubuntu, and all variants must use. .

I'm really sorry for not being around as much as I usually am. We all love our own country's, and things happen...

Regards,

Phill.

No worries, just stay safe :D

I'll probably be tied up for the better part of a week here.

caieng
August 10th, 2011, 02:17 PM
I submitted this message to an earlier thread, but, turns out, it was marked "solved", which is misleading, because this problem is most definitely, NOT SOLVED.

So, I resubmit it, on its own.

The previous thread sought input from the forum, on a comparison of XFCE versus LXDE. I would like to try them both, but, the newest iteration of Lubuntu, i.e. released for download a couple weeks ago, exceeds the capacity of the blank Verbatim CDROM's.

This is rather peculiar, not only because it would seem obvious that the size has exceeded the 700 megabyte capacity of the blank disks, but also because EARLIER versions of LXDE, including alpha releases from a couple of months ago, were NOT excessively large.

From a marketing perspective, it does look clumsy to release a distro that won't fit on the intended media....One wonders whether the engineers may have miscalculated some other aspects of the distro??? In the best case, it looks sloppy. In the worst case, the excessive size conveys the impression, at least to me, that folks in Ubuntuland, simply added some stuff to the Gnome version, and sent it on its merry way, one supposes without much testing, and certainly, without much thought.

But, apart from that, this is a thread which asks: XFCE, versus LXDE, which is "more Lightweight". (great question, by the way, at least in my opinion.)

So, can anyone explain to me, WHY the LXDE (supposedly "light weight" version of Ubuntu, IS LARGER than the burly Gnome version of Ubuntu (which, however, is ALSO too big to fit on a 700 MByte blank CDROM, but, it is nevertheless, less obese, than LXDE.)

CAI ENG

Basher101
August 10th, 2011, 02:19 PM
I did not look at the lubuntu or xubunut isos, but my 11.04 natty iso niceley fits on blanks. You can still use a Live USB tho

kerry_s
August 10th, 2011, 04:32 PM
It's always like that during development.
When it is released it should be normal.
The only version you should be using/trying is 11.04. http://lubuntu.net/

Your not a tester, nor would you know what to do if something go's wrong, other wise you wouldn't be asking. 11.10 is developing, it's an unfinished product.

XubuRoxMySox
August 10th, 2011, 06:12 PM
Most distros include alot of software, like LibreOffice, Firefox, all that stuff. And most distros are getting too full of the software for CDs now and going with DVDs instead.

But the applications included on a distro's LiveCD or LiveDVD have nothing to do with the resource demands of the desktop environment. LXDE (the desktop environment, not the distro Lubuntu) is "lighter" than Xfce. It had nothing to do with the size of the software files on the CD, but it's performance on your computer once installed.

Hoping that helps,
Robin

Megaptera
August 10th, 2011, 08:02 PM
it's always like that during development.
When it is released it should be normal.
The only version you should be using/trying is 11.04. http://lubuntu.net/

your not a tester, nor would you know what to do if something go's wrong, other wise you wouldn't be asking. 11.10 is developing, it's an unfinished product.


+ 1

Megaptera
August 10th, 2011, 08:03 PM
... But the applications included on a distro's livecd or livedvd have nothing to do with the resource demands of the desktop environment. Lxde (the desktop environment, not the distro lubuntu) is "lighter" than xfce. It had nothing to do with the size of the software files on the cd, but it's performance on your computer once installed.

Hoping that helps,
robin

+ 1 !

kerry_s
August 11th, 2011, 01:18 AM
my theory is there's extra debugging tools, plus there still in the process of selecting applications, like i hear there switching to the xfce4-power-manager, which i think is good, with that they can get rid of xscreensaver & gnome-power-manager.

claracc
August 11th, 2011, 07:02 AM
You can download the current stable relase for lubuntu 11.04 from here: http://lubuntu.lafibre.info/11.04/, all of these iso downloads fit a cdrom capacity.

caieng
August 11th, 2011, 02:50 PM
Thanks to several forum members, GOOD REPLIES.

I should have written more carefully.

Start again: Lubuntu, 11.04, downloads and fits just fine, on a single CDROM, as advertised.

This thread was started, because I THEN downloaded the NEWER (or, perhaps, even, the newest) version, 11.10 alpha or beta, i.e. a model intended for TESTING.

I am running a test, comparing different versions of LXDE. I thought it would be useful/interesting/worthwhile to compare 11.04 with 11.10, to learn what advantage, if any, arose upon exploiting the newer version, on the target hardware: OLDER computers.

I am unable to accomplish that goal, because the newest version is LARGER than the capacity of the CDROM.

"Older" hardware, remember? no dvd player.....

Two questions remain, despite the excellence of the previous responses....

a. WHY is the LXDE version of Ubuntu, i.e. Lubuntu, LARGER, (even if only for TESTING purposes), than the plain vanilla Ubuntu itself.....
Am I the only person who finds strange the notion that a "lighter" desktop environment, would nevertheless contain MORE software to download and install????
At least to me, that is terribly counter-intuitive. Why would a testing version have MORE on it, than the final version??? That's also not good programming practice, from a software engineering point of view.

In my opinion, the BEST written software is that which is MORE compact, smaller, and faster, than the behemoth KDE's and GNOME's of this world. I would not have been able to predict, ahead of time, that an LXDE version, whether FINISHED, or IN TESTING, would be LARGER in size, than the ordinary parent source: Ubuntu itself.

Again I ask, as before: Did the developers of Lubuntu simply ADD more software to an existing compilation of Ubuntu, and shove it out the door, on its merry way, to be "tested", evidently NOT on older computers, which lack the ability to pretend that "cdroms or dvd's what's the difference, anyway"????

b. Since the older version DOES fit on a CDROM, am I able, with Synaptic, to upgrade to the newest "testing" version, without downloading the "testing version"?

CAI ENG

mcduck
August 11th, 2011, 03:02 PM
Thanks to several forum members, GOOD REPLIES.

I should have written more carefully.

Start again: Lubuntu, 11.04, downloads and fits just fine, on a single CDROM, as advertised.

This thread was started, because I THEN downloaded the NEWER (or, perhaps, even, the newest) version, 11.10 alpha or beta, i.e. a model intended for TESTING.

I am running a test, comparing different versions of LXDE. I thought it would be useful/interesting/worthwhile to compare 11.04 with 11.10, to learn what advantage, if any, arose upon exploiting the newer version, on the target hardware: OLDER computers.

I am unable to accomplish that goal, because the newest version is LARGER than the capacity of the CDROM.

"Older" hardware, remember? no dvd player.....

Two questions remain, despite the excellence of the previous responses....

a. WHY is the LXDE version of Ubuntu, i.e. Lubuntu, LARGER, (even if only for TESTING purposes), than the plain vanilla Ubuntu itself.....
Am I the only person who finds strange the notion that a "lighter" desktop environment, would nevertheless contain MORE software to download and install????
At least to me, that is terribly counter-intuitive. Why would a testing version have MORE on it, than the final version??? That's also not good programming practice, from a software engineering point of view.

In my opinion, the BEST written software is that which is MORE compact, smaller, and faster, than the behemoth KDE's and GNOME's of this world. I would not have been able to predict, ahead of time, that an LXDE version, whether FINISHED, or IN TESTING, would be LARGER in size, than the ordinary parent source: Ubuntu itself.

Again I ask, as before: Did the developers of Lubuntu simply ADD more software to an existing compilation of Ubuntu, and shove it out the door, on its merry way, to be "tested", evidently NOT on older computers, which lack the ability to pretend that "cdroms or dvd's what's the difference, anyway"????

b. Since the older version DOES fit on a CDROM, am I able, with Synaptic, to upgrade to the newest "testing" version, without downloading the "testing version"?

CAI ENG
Like others have said, lighter has nothing to do with the amount of software included, but on the amount of resources it uses. Less load on CPU and lower RAM requirements are what make an OS lighter. (larger amount of software doesn't increase the CPU or RAM requirements, only the amount of hard drive space used. And that depends on how much program the user installs anyway, so amount of disc space used is in no way a good measure for the lightness of an OS)

And the size of the disc image is pretty much among the least relevant things when it's still in development. It's not intended to be used by anybody other than developers and testers at this point (testing meaning bug testing, not testing to see if you like it or not, as it's not finished product yet).

Development versions are larger simply because the developers are still working on it, and at that point it only slows down the development if they bother thinking about if the image is exactly the same size as a CD, especially since the included packages and their versions are still changing, and in addition all the bug tracing code makes the packages larger than what they would be in a final release.

XubuRoxMySox
August 11th, 2011, 03:39 PM
Yup. It still has to "just work out of the box," and it still should have the latest versions, if possible, of a browser, e-mail client, office apps, music player, video player, and other commonly used desktop apps. Most of the latest versions of these things come in larger file sizes, even if they are "lightweight" when installed on a computer.

I use a few "legacy" applications (Seamonkey in place of Firefox and Thunderbird, for example) just because they're easier on my hardware, instantly available in the repositories, and just suit my own tastes better. But most people - even those with older hardware and seeking a distro that will run well on it - prefer the latest versions of their own favorite applications. During the experimental / testing phase of the elease cycle, the developers are trying out different ones to see how they work and what their users want.

By the time they are finally released in their final form, I promise, both Lubu and Xubu will easily fit on a regular CD. Both teams are committed to iso files no bigger than 700 MB by release time. Until then, the trial versions may be bigger or smaller just depending on how the testing is going.

-Robin

TBABill
August 11th, 2011, 04:14 PM
The devs will chop it down before release. Keep in mind all the software comes from Debian Sid originally so they have to make their changes, repackage, reconfigure and test, change or whatever until they feel they have a final product. Until then it's pretty normal to have more software than they intend to finish with because it's all probably, in theory, up for removal in the event something doesn't work right.

caieng
August 11th, 2011, 07:18 PM
Less load on CPU and lower RAM requirements are what make an OS lighter.
Hi McDuck,

I don't agree, at all. When we write, or read, "lighter", with reference to LXDE, (or XFCE), we are NOT referring to CPU or RAM, or hard disk either. We are referencing the quantity of running processes.

Now, are those processes using up cpu resources? YES. Memory? yes. But, can you envision a "light" os that has a huge burden on both memory and cpu---> yes... M$ Windows....

The fastest implementations use memory, lots of it, in fact, loading the entire OS into memory, bypassing the hard drive, after boot up.

The question, you have thus far not addressed, is why plain vanilla Ubuntu should be SMALLER on the CDROM than Lubuntu.

That makes no sense to me, whether one is testing, or has included gobs of testing software, or not.

CAI ENG

caieng
August 11th, 2011, 07:26 PM
@dixiedancer and TBABill:

Thank you both, for skillful rejoinders, well written, and much appreciated.

Here's the problem, simplified:

Box A contains 500 trinkets, Box B contains 400 trinkets. Both boxes are marketing research, experimental allocations. When the final version is offered at the county fair next month, there will be only 300 trinkets in each box.

Salesman BBB complains to the head office that he would prefer to market boxes containing only 300 trinkets, since that is what will be offered at the county fair. He protests that it makes little sense, from a marketing research perspective, to test public reception to the boxes if the contents differ from that intended for distribution at the County Fair.

Would you fire him/her for insubordination? I would paste a gold star on his forehead.

CAI ENG

mcduck
August 11th, 2011, 07:29 PM
Hi McDuck,

I don't agree, at all. When we write, or read, "lighter", with reference to LXDE, (or XFCE), we are NOT referring to CPU or RAM, or hard disk either. We are referencing the quantity of running processes.

Now, are those processes using up cpu resources? YES. Memory? yes. But, can you envision a "light" os that has a huge burden on both memory and cpu---> yes... M$ Windows....

The fastest implementations use memory, lots of it, in fact, loading the entire OS into memory, bypassing the hard drive, after boot up.

The question, you have thus far not addressed, is why plain vanilla Ubuntu should be SMALLER on the CDROM than Lubuntu.

That makes no sense to me, whether one is testing, or has included gobs of testing software, or not.

CAI ENG
The amount of running processes would be a false indicator of system lightness, and the amount of installed software definitely is false as well (since installed software doesn't equal running software).

You can have many running processes that use very little resources, and you can have a few that are extremely heavy. So simply counting the number of processes doesn't tell you anything.

And yes, I have addressed your question. It's still under development, so it's not yet at the stage when there's any reason to fit it into a CD image. And even then the image will be pretty much the exact same size as any other Ubuntu version, the size of a CD. Since, once again, the amount available or installed software doesn't have anything to do with how new or powerful computer you need to run the OS. That only affects the amount of hard drive space required.

(I assume when you say "we" in the post, you mean "I", as that's definitely the strangest definition of a lightweight operating system I've heard this far. :))

dFlyer
August 11th, 2011, 07:33 PM
I submitted this message to an earlier thread, but, turns out, it was marked "solved", which is misleading, because this problem is most definitely, NOT SOLVED.

So, I resubmit it, on its own.

The previous thread sought input from the forum, on a comparison of XFCE versus LXDE. I would like to try them both, but, the newest iteration of Lubuntu, i.e. released for download a couple weeks ago, exceeds the capacity of the blank Verbatim CDROM's.

This is rather peculiar, not only because it would seem obvious that the size has exceeded the 700 megabyte capacity of the blank disks, but also because EARLIER versions of LXDE, including alpha releases from a couple of months ago, were NOT excessively large.

From a marketing perspective, it does look clumsy to release a distro that won't fit on the intended media....One wonders whether the engineers may have miscalculated some other aspects of the distro??? In the best case, it looks sloppy. In the worst case, the excessive size conveys the impression, at least to me, that folks in Ubuntuland, simply added some stuff to the Gnome version, and sent it on its merry way, one supposes without much testing, and certainly, without much thought.

But, apart from that, this is a thread which asks: XFCE, versus LXDE, which is "more Lightweight". (great question, by the way, at least in my opinion.)

So, can anyone explain to me, WHY the LXDE (supposedly "light weight" version of Ubuntu, IS LARGER than the burly Gnome version of Ubuntu (which, however, is ALSO too big to fit on a 700 MByte blank CDROM, but, it is nevertheless, less obese, than LXDE.)

CAI ENG

If your referring to 11.10 you are correct. Read the Release Notes. They state that you will need to use a dvd to burn the cd live desktops.

mcduck
August 11th, 2011, 07:36 PM
@dixiedancer and TBABill:

Thank you both, for skillful rejoinders, well written, and much appreciated.

Here's the problem, simplified:

Box A contains 500 trinkets, Box B contains 400 trinkets. Both boxes are marketing research, experimental allocations. When the final version is offered at the county fair next month, there will be only 300 trinkets in each box.

Salesman BBB complains to the head office that he would prefer to market boxes containing only 300 trinkets, since that is what will be offered at the county fair. He protests that it makes little sense, from a marketing research perspective, to test public reception to the boxes if the contents differ from that intended for distribution at the County Fair.

Would you fire him/her for insubordination? I would paste a gold star on his forehead.

CAI ENG
the example might be more appropriate if you also accounted for the fact that each trinket has a different weight and value. And one box was actually for sale, while the other is still for the internal use of the research/development department of the company. ;)

I also said that the testing version of Lubuntu is not for testing how people like it. It's for bug testing. You should probably start by reading Ubuntu's wiki page for testing before you even try a development release. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing

drs305
August 11th, 2011, 08:00 PM
This thread has been moved to the Ubuntu+1 forum since the majority of the discussions relate to the image size of a pre-release version of the OS.

caieng
August 11th, 2011, 09:42 PM
If your referring to 11.10 you are correct. Read the Release Notes. They state that you will need to use a dvd to burn the cd live desktops.

Thanks for that Gary, umm, no, mea culpa, I DID NOT READ the Release notes, but I did read the text on the download page, which specifically stated CDROM, not DVD.

However, that is really IRRELEVANT to the central issue. WHY in the world would Ubuntu folks issue a "light" distro, INTENDED FOR OLDER HARDWARE, and then make it impossible to install that software, by demanding use of DVD?

Moreover, why are folks here, on this forum, defending the shoddy practice of sending out "testing" versions which are OBVIOUSLY different from (and quite possibly defective) the intended RELEASE version, n months from now...? That is an UNACCEPTABLE engineering practice. For sure, this thread would never have arisen, for I would not have downloaded the distro, if it had insisted upon a DVD.

One does NOT test a version which is KNOWN to contain redundant software, in the amount of hundreds of megabytes.......

A few kilobytes, for some special testing routines, ok, no problem. But, 70 MEGABYTES?

That's absurd.

WHY, if all this extra testing software is so crucial to assess the performance of this TEST version of LUBUNTU, does the plain vanilla version of Ubuntu NOT CONTAIN this SAME "testing" software? Ubuntu itself is a good 50 Megabytes smaller than Lubuntu. Why?


I also said that the testing version of Lubuntu is not for testing how people like it. It's for bug testing.

I know nothing, or perhaps, LESS than nothing, about Ubuntu and Ubuntu's method of testing software. But, I have a few DECADES of experience testing software in the industrial and aerospace sectors (no, I am not the guy who incorrectly computed the trajectory of that Mars capsule that crashed), and I am very confident, that you will NOT find a reference in the literature to support your idea that one should issue a pre-release version of software on a medium different from that intended for the final distribution.

"It's for bug testing." Did you think about the implications of your sentence?

How do you want folks to test for bugs, if they cannot even make the cdrom? Absurd.

Let's start over, shall we?

1. LUBUNTU is a version of Ubuntu, destined for computers of LOW, or LIMITED resources, or those of ANTIQUE vintage, or at least, those with slow cpu's and modest sums of memory.

Now, if that premise is erroneous, and you, the developers of Lubuntu, intend instead, that I should test this distro on my 4 GHz Intel Core i7 with 16 GB DDR3, ok, that's also possible, but, that's NOT what most folks imagine, as the advantage offered by LXDE.

2. Testing, whether for "bugs", or identifying user preferences, demands, if properly executed, a method of conveying the item to be examined to those folks engaged in the task of analyzing any potential defects.

3. Whether or not it is correct, peoples' perceptions about a company, or a Linux distribution, are influenced by what many perhaps, might term as insignificant details. I for one, judge the quality of a Linux distro by three factors, and I have never encountered anyone else who identifies the same factors as significant in judging the quality of the distro:

a. out of the box, effortless installation:
(I am on record, as attesting to the fact, that in my opinion, the Ubuntu installer is the best, hands down, in the business)

b. out of the box, effortless installation of VLC (if not already installed by default). If VLC is present, but does not function properly by translating streaming audio, as it should, the distro is worthless, in my view (LINT). Sorry, I am so used to speaking and writing LINT, I should write more respectfully, MINT.

c. easy installation of Opera, my preferred browser.

Thus far, I have found very few Linux distros which fulfil those criteria. I was hoping that Lubuntu would join that elite group. Thus far, it is impossible to assess, using the 11.10 alpha/beta version.

Streaming audio reception (internet radio station receiver) is one application, where a 4GHz cpu will not outshine my simple 1GHz PIII with half a Gig of RAM.

I can connect both computers to two different inputs on the Yamaha receiver, and fail then, on switching between the two inputs, to distinguish which computer is the faster/slicker/better....Remember the violinist or pianist performing behind a curtain, at competitions, so that the judges are focused on the sound, and not the visual appearance.

CAI ENG

ronacc
August 11th, 2011, 11:14 PM
@ kansasnoob I finaly got things straightened out and got a 64 bit install going . just for info the size on disk of a fresh 64 bit install is 3.45 gb ( no swap) .

cariboo
August 11th, 2011, 11:37 PM
You are trying to run a testing version, all of the isos are ususally to big to fit on a cd until around the beta release when all the debugging files are removed. Instead of getting upset about it, if you'd read the release notes, you would have been warned about the problem.

This is normal, it has nothing to do with whether it is a lighter distribution designed for older systems, or a full version designed for up to date systems. Check back after the beta is released, and you should get what you want.

If you to want to run a testing version, that may well be broken at various times, I'd suggest you read the stickies at the top of the page, and this (http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html) page, on how to report bugs.

kerry_s
August 12th, 2011, 12:30 AM
i under stand what he's saying, but to me the problem is on his end.

wants to test but:
no dvd, not ubuntu's fault, a personal hardware limitation. work around or fix.



1. LUBUNTU is a version of Ubuntu, destined for computers of LOW, or LIMITED resources, or those of ANTIQUE vintage, or at least, those with slow cpu's and modest sums of memory.


on a finished version that might be true, but it's not a finished version.

as far as testing go's, i assume that if you wanted to really test, you would find away.
can you use a usb device?

my computer doesn't even have cd, so i always use the start up disk creator to burn to usb flash drive and use that, i have several in different sizes.

caieng
August 12th, 2011, 12:33 AM
You are trying to run a testing version, all of the isos are ususally to big to fit on a cd until around the beta release when all the debugging files are removed. Instead of getting upset about it, if you'd read the release notes, you would have been warned about the problem.

This is normal, it has nothing to do with whether it is a lighter distribution designed for older systems, or a full version designed for up to date systems. Check back after the beta is released, and you should get what you want.

Thanks to all, for the encouragement. Very good.

OK, I will wait....

I wish someone would explain why "debugging files" are so much larger (50 MB) on Lubuntu than ordinary Ubuntu....Is it perhaps, not clear, that the impression conveyed, by this anomaly, is that the Lubuntu variant is just the same old Ubuntu, upon which an extra 50 MB of LXDE has been tacked on. The fact that the gnome testing version is SMALLER than the LXDE testing version, by some 50 MB, suggests, absent clarification, that Lubuntu is just a sorry step child....

I welcome clarification of this issue.

CAI ENG

caieng
August 12th, 2011, 12:41 AM
my computer doesn't even have cd, so i always use the start up disk creator to burn to usb flash drive and use that, i have several in different sizes.

Thank you Kerry, for confirming that at least SOME of the audience for Lubuntu, contrary to my assertion, is using MODERN computers, and NOT the old, obsolete junk like I use.....

Good luck booting from "usb flash drive" on my older computers. Technology didn't exist in those days....


Some computers, particularly older ones, may not have a BIOS that supports USB booting.

Of course, if the developers are all using Core I5's to develop Lubuntu, then, "eh, what's all the fuss about"???

CAI ENG

cariboo
August 12th, 2011, 12:45 AM
Threads merged by request.

zealibib slaughter
August 12th, 2011, 12:45 AM
You can boot from usb even on old hardware. Here is a link: http://www.pendrivelinux.com/boot-from-usb-without-bios-support-via-plop-cd/

One of the reasons for difference in size between ubuntu and lubuntu betas could be that lubuntu uses a complete different DE and set of apps that may be more buggy than ubuntu at this point in the dev.

23dornot23d
August 12th, 2011, 12:50 AM
Now, if that premise is erroneous, and you, the developers of Lubuntu, intend instead, that I should test this distro on my 4 GHz Intel Core i7 with 16 GB DDR3, ok, that's also possible, but, that's NOT what most folks imagine, as the advantage offered by LXDE.
:D You are hitting the nail right on the head there ......

Your options as far as I can see ..... and I can see you really want to get involved as I first did
a lot of us on here are not developers - but we have a desire to try to help .....

The thing is ...... you as you state ..... have two machines .... and you can test it on the machine it does not need testing on ........ right ..... the 7 core proves nothing ........

Now to the point ......

You want to test it on the machine that is the older one with only a CD drive in it - so what possibility do you have of doing this ....... :confused:

Me if it was me ..... in this situation ....

I would not let it stop me .....

I would go out and buy a USB Dvd drive just to become part of this wonderful development cycle .........

and if you do not have USB ports ....

I would in that situation go out and buy a USB card presuming its a desktop computer.
If it is a desktop computer ..... you could maybe get a DVD drive for it ......

But you say ....... why should I have to do any of the above ......

Well from what I can gather reading this thread ..... then they leave you very few options ...... as they obviously do not think its worth putting it onto a CD ...... :confused:

I like solving problems ..... but what a dilema .... you ask for a CD .... they say no its DVD only .....

Your only options .... USB or DVD ...... new attachments for your computer are the only way I can see for you to get into this development cycle ..... and then you can start breaking things in this world of development .......

Unless its a laptop with no USB's ..... then its a PCMIA card with USB Adaptop on it (http://discountcablesusa.com/usb-video.html).....
and a USB DVD drive ..... :confused: .... starts costing you money already just to get involved.

Oh for a CD ..... ( not sure that they can do that ..... !!!! ) .....



"debugging files" are so much larger (50 MB) on Lubuntu than ordinary Ubuntu
I also guess this is impossible to download after a install from a CD too ......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you do have USB's though on the older machine ... and a USB stick ...... that is another possibility ,,,,,


cheaper too .....

ronacc
August 12th, 2011, 01:26 AM
not everyone is running lubuntu because they have old hardware although I do like the fact that it runs quite happily on my amd64x2 6000+ with 4 gig of ram and 1.5 TB disk space AND also my first edition EEEPC 701 with an 800mhz celeron throtled to 600mhz and 512mb ram and a 4gb ssd .MY main reason for now using lubuntu is that I despise unity .

Catharsis
August 12th, 2011, 02:06 AM
I can sympathize with your complaints. You'd just like to test the OS on a system that it's designed for.

How old is your system though? Is it even within the System Requirements? I think Lubuntu was designed for my 1.4 GHz 512MB RAM Dell Latitude, but not my 333MHz 192MB RAM Dell Inspiron. I use Tiny Core Linux on the Inspiron because it's more appropriate. And my Latitude can boot a LiveUSB (which would fit the oversized ISO), but my Inspiron cannot. Funny how that works out, eh? Maybe you just have one of the few computers who are unlucky enough to fit the System Requirements but are not be able to boot from USB or DVD.

If I were you I would install Lubuntu Natty and then upgrade to Oneiric using "update-manager -d". (Is that the right way to upgrade to a pre-release?)


In response to Lubuntu being larger than Ubuntu, I think that might be because Ubuntu has already started to work towards slimming the ISO down. Why hasn't Lubuntu done as much work in this regard? It's probably because Lubuntu has, what, 3 developers? For the entire distro? You have to realize that they're humans, not machines. Volunteer humans, even. :)

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 02:18 AM
This thread has been moved to the Ubuntu+1 forum since the majority of the discussions relate to the image size of a pre-release version of the OS.

I truly wish this hadn't been merged :D

Merging basically turns this one thread into a separate Lubuntu dev forum which is difficult.

It becomes like your old grub2 thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1195275

Things get run together and become difficult to focus on ;)

Catharsis
August 12th, 2011, 02:20 AM
i truly wish this hadn't been merged :d

merging basically turns this one thread into a separate lubuntu dev forum which is difficult.

It becomes like your old grub2 thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1195275

things get run together and become difficult to focus on ;)

+1

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 02:49 AM
Getting back to the original rant about Lubuntu Alpha 3 not fitting on a CD the answer has already been put out there .............. development versions should not be compared to a finished product!

Lubuntu was only accepted as an official offspring of Ubuntu a few months ago. The Oneiric Alpha 1 was not built as an official Ubuntu child, and there was no Alpha 2.

The first official daily build only appeared about a week before Alpha 3 and a lot of development has gone into merging Lubuntu as a full fledged member of the Ubuntu family.

No one should doubt the devotion of the original Lubuntu devs at "getting things right", nor should anyone doubt that Canonical will fail to fully integrate Lubuntu into the family ..... it's happening, SABDFL always goes through with his promises :D

Some patience is required. There is a reason for having a development cycle. Those of us with a tiny bit of FOSS knowledge understand that the word development means we're still working on it! Would you prefer that all development go on behind closed doors?

And IMHO anyone that fails to read the release notes for any distro is only looking for trouble.

BTW Lubuntu will remain "light" but there will still be even lighter distros out there.

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 02:53 AM
I can sympathize with your complaints. You'd just like to test the OS on a system that it's designed for.

How old is your system though? Is it even within the System Requirements? I think Lubuntu was designed for my 1.4 GHz 512MB RAM Dell Latitude, but not my 333MHz 192MB RAM Dell Inspiron. I use Tiny Core Linux on the Inspiron because it's more appropriate. And my Latitude can boot a LiveUSB (which would fit the oversized ISO), but my Inspiron cannot. Funny how that works out, eh? Maybe you just have one of the few computers who are unlucky enough to fit the System Requirements but are not be able to boot from USB or DVD.

If I were you I would install Lubuntu Natty and then upgrade to Oneiric using "update-manager -d". (Is that the right way to upgrade to a pre-release?)


In response to Lubuntu being larger than Ubuntu, I think that might be because Ubuntu has already started to work towards slimming the ISO down. Why hasn't Lubuntu done as much work in this regard? It's probably because Lubuntu has, what, 3 developers? For the entire distro? You have to realize that they're humans, not machines. Volunteer humans, even. :)

+1!

And the first official iso was spun about a week to 10 days before Alpha 3 :D

I have enough faith in the Lubuntu and Canonical devs to believe the final will be good .............. and 12.04 will be excellent :guitar:

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 02:58 AM
Thanks for that Gary, umm, no, mea culpa, I DID NOT READ the Release notes, but I did read the text on the download page, which specifically stated CDROM, not DVD.

However, that is really IRRELEVANT to the central issue. WHY in the world would Ubuntu folks issue a "light" distro, INTENDED FOR OLDER HARDWARE, and then make it impossible to install that software, by demanding use of DVD?

Moreover, why are folks here, on this forum, defending the shoddy practice of sending out "testing" versions which are OBVIOUSLY different from (and quite possibly defective) the intended RELEASE version, n months from now...? That is an UNACCEPTABLE engineering practice. For sure, this thread would never have arisen, for I would not have downloaded the distro, if it had insisted upon a DVD.

One does NOT test a version which is KNOWN to contain redundant software, in the amount of hundreds of megabytes.......

A few kilobytes, for some special testing routines, ok, no problem. But, 70 MEGABYTES?

That's absurd.

WHY, if all this extra testing software is so crucial to assess the performance of this TEST version of LUBUNTU, does the plain vanilla version of Ubuntu NOT CONTAIN this SAME "testing" software? Ubuntu itself is a good 50 Megabytes smaller than Lubuntu. Why?



I know nothing, or perhaps, LESS than nothing, about Ubuntu and Ubuntu's method of testing software. But, I have a few DECADES of experience testing software in the industrial and aerospace sectors (no, I am not the guy who incorrectly computed the trajectory of that Mars capsule that crashed), and I am very confident, that you will NOT find a reference in the literature to support your idea that one should issue a pre-release version of software on a medium different from that intended for the final distribution.

"It's for bug testing." Did you think about the implications of your sentence?

How do you want folks to test for bugs, if they cannot even make the cdrom? Absurd.

Let's start over, shall we?

1. LUBUNTU is a version of Ubuntu, destined for computers of LOW, or LIMITED resources, or those of ANTIQUE vintage, or at least, those with slow cpu's and modest sums of memory.

Now, if that premise is erroneous, and you, the developers of Lubuntu, intend instead, that I should test this distro on my 4 GHz Intel Core i7 with 16 GB DDR3, ok, that's also possible, but, that's NOT what most folks imagine, as the advantage offered by LXDE.

2. Testing, whether for "bugs", or identifying user preferences, demands, if properly executed, a method of conveying the item to be examined to those folks engaged in the task of analyzing any potential defects.

3. Whether or not it is correct, peoples' perceptions about a company, or a Linux distribution, are influenced by what many perhaps, might term as insignificant details. I for one, judge the quality of a Linux distro by three factors, and I have never encountered anyone else who identifies the same factors as significant in judging the quality of the distro:

a. out of the box, effortless installation:
(I am on record, as attesting to the fact, that in my opinion, the Ubuntu installer is the best, hands down, in the business)

b. out of the box, effortless installation of VLC (if not already installed by default). If VLC is present, but does not function properly by translating streaming audio, as it should, the distro is worthless, in my view (LINT). Sorry, I am so used to speaking and writing LINT, I should write more respectfully, MINT.

c. easy installation of Opera, my preferred browser.

Thus far, I have found very few Linux distros which fulfil those criteria. I was hoping that Lubuntu would join that elite group. Thus far, it is impossible to assess, using the 11.10 alpha/beta version.

Streaming audio reception (internet radio station receiver) is one application, where a 4GHz cpu will not outshine my simple 1GHz PIII with half a Gig of RAM.

I can connect both computers to two different inputs on the Yamaha receiver, and fail then, on switching between the two inputs, to distinguish which computer is the faster/slicker/better....Remember the violinist or pianist performing behind a curtain, at competitions, so that the judges are focused on the sound, and not the visual appearance.

CAI ENG

If you'd like I'll answer each of your questions. Just let me know :D

cariboo
August 12th, 2011, 03:26 AM
@kansasnoob

I merged the threads at the request of phillw.

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 04:56 AM
@kansasnoob

I merged the threads at the request of phillw.

Oops. My bad :redface:

My biggest problem ATM is time. Simply more to do than there are hours in the day ;)

But this actually breaks down into areas beyond Lubuntu. Like Ubuntu development itself, how long a cycle should be, who should be involved, etc, etc.

IMHO we've got it about right and I've even played my part in trying to be sure important stuff gets included in the release notes :D

wojox
August 12th, 2011, 05:06 AM
@kansanoob

Why don't you folks gussy up http://wiki.lxde.org/en/Ubuntu

I've started using Lubuntu 11.04 and think it's a great spin. Would be more the happy to help out. :D

arpanaut
August 12th, 2011, 07:14 AM
@kansasnoob

I merged the threads at the request of phillw.


Given the spirit of this thread thus far: wouldn't it have been better to have just moved the "obese" thread to Ubuntu +1 rather than pollute this thread with something that is just a development issue, rather than a lubuntu issue per se. Just saying... With your position in the forum cannot you use some editorial discretion?

I am not in any way trying to be disrespectful, I admire the work you do here... I just agree with kansasnoob it is not OT in this thread. Oversize images are commonplace in development.

Just my humble opinion.

caieng
August 12th, 2011, 01:29 PM
WHY, if all this extra testing software is so crucial to assess the performance of this TEST version of LUBUNTU, does the plain vanilla version of Ubuntu NOT CONTAIN this SAME "testing" software? Ubuntu itself is a good 50 Megabytes smaller than Lubuntu. Why?


If you'd like I'll answer each of your questions. Just let me know

Thank you kansasnoob. Yes, I am looking forward to learning the definitive answer to this question. Sorry, then, to inquire, but as I am totally ignorant of all matters Ubuntu, are you one of the folks who is, or was, involved in release of this software? Alternatively, you may simply be a very well informed, or very intelligent, or a very experienced Linux user, but not someone intimately aware of the decision making process, regarding release of this particular testing software (Lubuntu 11.10 alphaxxx) to the public for evaluation....




@kansasnoob

I merged the threads at the request of phillw.
Oops. My bad

I have absolutely no idea at all, what this shuffling and moving is all about. why has kansasnoob committed an error? phillw?

Very mysterious.

If I had been involved with the decision making process, regarding release of this software, I would have issued the following ultimatum, to whoever is running the ship:

1. Keep the maximum size to fit on a cdrom, if it is the intention of Ubuntu to release the FINAL version on cdrom. (i.e. the TESTING version, and the FINAL version, MUST be on the same medium.) This is part and parcel of the ABC's of software engineering. (Brooks, McConnell, DeMarco, Fowler)

2. Include no extra programs beyond those required to confirm that LXDE itself is working properly with this Linux kernel and the Debian sources. If synaptic is working properly, then, anyone seeking to install "open office", (or whatever other, gargantuan program,) on their computer, can download that particular application. The size of the final TESTING version should be well under 700 megabytes, because MANY other Linux versions, based on LXDE, including Lubuntu from last year, easily fit on a cdrom.

I would have resigned, rather than accept issuance of software INTENTIONALLY defective, i.e. unable to fit on the target medium. Whoever runs this Ubuntu ship, needs to realize the impression conveyed, upon issuance of a testing version of the STANDARD version of Ubuntu, based on the bloated Gnome desktop environment, which is decisively, obviously, SMALLER than the LXDE testing version. Even if kansasnoob finds some magical words to explain this disparity, the ordinary guy off the street, like me, uninformed, unaware of what is going on, cannot but help, feeling, that the engineering aspect of Lubuntu, is in disarray. Neither the Gnome version, nor the LXDE version, in my opinion, should have been released, in excess of the capacity of the cdrom, as both were.

Not everyone in the world has access to high speed internet, and DVD drives.

CAI ENG

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 07:15 PM
@kansanoob

Why don't you folks gussy up http://wiki.lxde.org/en/Ubuntu

I've started using Lubuntu 11.04 and think it's a great spin. Would be more the happy to help out. :D

Indeed, a lot of info on that page is pretty badly out of date IMHO. Phillw could tell you much more than I could about what work needs to be done with the wiki.

I generally begin my searches at one of these two links:

http://lubuntu.net/

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu

We could certainly use all the help we can get, so thanks in advance :)

ATM I'm quite busy with unrelated activities but I've been doing Ubuntu iso-testing for quite some time but I'm gradually shifting my focus to Lubuntu.

My primary focus is on ubiquity (the live-installer) and casper, and currently I'm most concerned about these two bugs:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/766265

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/819538

I should be able to get around to doing some testing regarding the latter of the two very soon, and regarding the other one I need to check and see what recent changes, if any, have been made to ubiquity since the 4th.

cariboo
August 12th, 2011, 07:16 PM
If you want to learn more about the development of Lubuntu, have a look at the developer wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers).

I would also suggest you tone down your posting style a bit, as it comes across as very demanding. Keep in mind that we are all volunteers here, we do this for fun.

phillw
August 12th, 2011, 08:28 PM
If you want to learn more about the development of Lubuntu, have a look at the developer wiki page (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Lubuntu/Developers).

I would also suggest you tone down your posting style a bit, as it comes across as very demanding. Keep in mind that we are all volunteers here, we do this for fun.

thanks boss, I do really struggle to realise why people complain about a test alpha. When we get 11.10 released, we WILL get a 10.04.3 released. For our devs to run on two completely incompatible systems for iso building is a part of us being accepted.

Have none you learned the word
PATIENCE If not, then go use some different system.

Regards,

Phill.
:lolflag:

kansasnoob
August 12th, 2011, 08:32 PM
Thank you kansasnoob. Yes, I am looking forward to learning the definitive answer to this question. Sorry, then, to inquire, but as I am totally ignorant of all matters Ubuntu, are you one of the folks who is, or was, involved in release of this software? Alternatively, you may simply be a very well informed, or very intelligent, or a very experienced Linux user, but not someone intimately aware of the decision making process, regarding release of this particular testing software (Lubuntu 11.10 alphaxxx) to the public for evaluation....



I have absolutely no idea at all, what this shuffling and moving is all about. why has kansasnoob committed an error? phillw?

Very mysterious.

If I had been involved with the decision making process, regarding release of this software, I would have issued the following ultimatum, to whoever is running the ship:

1. Keep the maximum size to fit on a cdrom, if it is the intention of Ubuntu to release the FINAL version on cdrom. (i.e. the TESTING version, and the FINAL version, MUST be on the same medium.) This is part and parcel of the ABC's of software engineering. (Brooks, McConnell, DeMarco, Fowler)

2. Include no extra programs beyond those required to confirm that LXDE itself is working properly with this Linux kernel and the Debian sources. If synaptic is working properly, then, anyone seeking to install "open office", (or whatever other, gargantuan program,) on their computer, can download that particular application. The size of the final TESTING version should be well under 700 megabytes, because MANY other Linux versions, based on LXDE, including Lubuntu from last year, easily fit on a cdrom.

I would have resigned, rather than accept issuance of software INTENTIONALLY defective, i.e. unable to fit on the target medium. Whoever runs this Ubuntu ship, needs to realize the impression conveyed, upon issuance of a testing version of the STANDARD version of Ubuntu, based on the bloated Gnome desktop environment, which is decisively, obviously, SMALLER than the LXDE testing version. Even if kansasnoob finds some magical words to explain this disparity, the ordinary guy off the street, like me, uninformed, unaware of what is going on, cannot but help, feeling, that the engineering aspect of Lubuntu, is in disarray. Neither the Gnome version, nor the LXDE version, in my opinion, should have been released, in excess of the capacity of the cdrom, as both were.

Not everyone in the world has access to high speed internet, and DVD drives.

CAI ENG

Well, it's quite typical for development releases to have bugs. An oversize image is a bug and it's mentioned as such in the release notes and also on the daily image download page:

http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/lubuntu/daily-live/current/

Generally very little effort is made during the alpha stage to ensure that images will fit on a CD, this is true of all flavors of Ubuntu. Generally beta releases are more likely to fit on a CD, but the daily builds still may not.

But alpha, beta, and release candidate images are intended for testing and reporting bugs, and IMHO it's unfair to compare them to a final release. The Ubuntu philosophy on testing (in my words, not Canonical's) is that the more people who test and report bugs the better, therefore development images are made available to anyone and everyone.

I happen to like that. When I first started iso-testing I'd probably only filed half a dozen bug reports in my life so I had to learn a lot, and I still have a lot to learn. I'd get bored if there were no challenge involved whatsoever :)

Some other distros do keep testing very much "in house". PCLinuxOS is probably one of the best examples of that, or even Linux Mint generally releases only one or two "release candidates" shortly before the final release.

All Ubuntu testing releases (as well as the finals) include release notes which are intended to be read:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Alpha3

Specifically:

https://wiki.ubuntu.com/OneiricOcelot/TechnicalOverview/Alpha3#Download_the_Alpha_3


This release is for developers only. Most of these images are oversize; you can use either a DVD or USB for installation instead of a CD.

Some of us like the way Canonical/Ubuntu does things, sometimes we disagree with the designers and/or developers so we use the proper channels to try and change things. In my own case I've won a few fights and lost a few others, and that's OK.

I certainly hope that Ubuntu keeps development releases easily available to all who are interested (Fedora does this as well) rather than closing the dev process to only a chosen few :)

In the grand scheme of things I'm both a nobody and a somebody, that's sort of how Ubuntu works. We all try to help each other, but we're all just human beings so we sometimes say or do things wrong. I apologized with an "oops" when I found out that phillw had requested the merging of these threads because I respect him and the work he's done towards improving Lubuntu.

I hope this answers most of your questions :)

cariboo
August 12th, 2011, 08:42 PM
I agree with kansasnoob, the way Canonical/Ubuntu does development, and allows anyone to run testing releases and report bugs is one of the things that brought me to Ubuntu. I participated in a closed testing session for Xandros, and look where it is now, I feel that if the process had been more open, we would have squashed a lot more bugs that showed up in the final release.

phillw
August 12th, 2011, 08:53 PM
I apologized with an "oops" when I found out that phillw had requested the merging of these threads because I respect him and the work he's done towards improving Lubuntu.

I hope this answers most of your questions :)

There is no apology nor 'oops' needed, as you said, our fantastic forum admins did their best to get everything lubuntu & oneric into one area. This will have and still will take time. For that 'bosses', thank you.

Herding cats is not too easy, any one who disagrees is welcome to join!

Regards,
Phill.

kansasnoob
August 13th, 2011, 12:13 AM
I agree with kansasnoob, the way Canonical/Ubuntu does development, and allows anyone to run testing releases and report bugs is one of the things that brought me to Ubuntu. I participated in a closed testing session for Xandros, and look where it is now, I feel that if the process had been more open, we would have squashed a lot more bugs that showed up in the final release.

I can also remember when Xandros PROMISED to keep a free edition of Linspire/Freespire available. Does anyone use Xandros?

ronacc
August 13th, 2011, 12:42 AM
xandros came pre installed on my eeepc 701 , it didn't last very long . I replaced it with puppy and now lubuntu .

cariboo
August 13th, 2011, 04:38 AM
I'd have to check my email archive, but if I remember correctly the Xandros Beta was in 2000-2001.

Now lets get back on topic. :)

phillw
August 13th, 2011, 11:29 PM
yeah, as we approach the cut off, and we are a democracy. for those not on the Mailing List,
Hello people,

I believe I've never introduced myself to this mailing list so I'll do it quick.
My name is Alexander Andjelkovic [1] and I'm very interested in
artwork and design.
My current task is to manage a poll which will help us select
community wallpapers for Lubuntu.

The poll is made out of contributions submitted to our Flickr group [2] and the top six most popular wallpapers will be added to the Lubuntu artwork package.

We have a problem with the current tool for polling however, users can only vote on one alternative. Keep this in mind when you vote, as you might want to vote on a less popular wallpaper to make it more popular. I know it's pretty dull, but we'll solve it for the next time we do a poll like this.

The poll is located here:
http://vote.statsr.net/vote/140/lubuntu-11-10-community-wallpapers/

The poll is public and you do not need to register anywhere to be able to vote. It will be up and running for approximatly two weeks.

Hopefully the mailing list will be enough to get peoples voices heard, but maybe someone with rights could add the poll in the IRC topic?

Regards,
Alexander Andjelkovic.

[1]: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/frankbooth
[2]: http://www.flickr.com/groups/uawt-8/ and, yes we do pay attention as to what you good people wish for Lubuntu.

Regards,

Phill.

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 01:47 PM
Just received this on the mailing list and it's quite important so thought I'd share it with all:

About GTK2 -> GTK3 Migration, a critical issue


I'm not sure what Lubuntu devs will do on this issue, but from the LXDE side, there is no plan for the migration at this moment. For now, migration to gtk3 brings much more problems and bugs with no visible benefit. XFCE also keeps using gtk2 in the near future.
The Chromium browser, is going to use gtk2 for quite a long time, too. They needs to support some older commercial systems on which gtk3 is not available. For current applications used in LXDE, migration to gtk3 brings no benefit but the work needs to be done is very huge.

The problems we will have after the migration:
1. PCManFM: desptop icons will be broken and this part needs some sort of rewrite for gtk3. In addition, some theming stuff uses gtk2 only features.
2. LibFM: this part still uses much GTK2 APIs. Though I already started the preperation for migration, this won't happen recently. As gtk3 now changed its user input handling and the change is not backward compatible, I'm not sure what bugs this will bring.
3. The XSettings daemon inside LXSession doesn't seem to be working for both gtk2 and gtk3 at the same time.
4. LXAppearance cannot configure gtk2/gtk3 at the same time. Technically it's not possible to make it work for both of them at the same time.
5. LXPanel is completely broken under gtk3. The work needs to fix the panel and port it to gtk3 is even more than developing a new panel. Hence, I plan to develop a new one based on gtk3 from scratch later. I will use libwnck at that time to avoid some low level X11 hacks. Some new widgets provided in gtk3 are useful for the new desktop panel. This could decrease much maintaince load and many unresolved bugs. I'll also do some UI redesign then. For now, migration to gtk3 for this one is 100% impossible and nobody is going to do it.
6. Migration of other components are possible, but since the major components still need more love, spending the time for migration to gtk3 for the least important components is pointless.
7. GTK+ 2 and gtk+ 3 modules are incompatible. So I'm not sure what will hapen to IM module (input method) after the migration. We will need two different IM modules. One for gtk2, and the other one is for gtk 3. Otherwise we cannot type non-English characters.
8. GTK2 and 3 programs can coexist, but this requires two librraries to be installed on the disk and loaded at runtime. Having a desktop environment composed by mixed gtk2/3 programs is a very bad idea since the resource usage is doubled for no additional benefit. This is not acceptable for LXDE. As most non-Gnome GTK+ based applications are not yet ported to gtk3, unless we're going to depend on gnome components, migration to gtk3 now brings harms only.

To sum up, we're not going to do gtk3 migration in LXDE now. The reasonable timing for the migration is when XFCE and other non-Gnome programs, especially Chromium, which has many users, start the migration.

Xubuntu will not use gtk3 this time, and it's really time for Lubuntu and others to think about the issue.



That comes from the lead developer of pcmanfm so I think this info is reliable. I wonder what the full implications will be switching DE's like installing 'lubuntu-desktop' on top of 'ubuntu-desktop', etc :confused:

ronacc
August 14th, 2011, 02:06 PM
If I may be allowed a bit of heresy it might be a good idea to have a non ubuntu based fall-back install .

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 02:59 PM
If I may be allowed a bit of heresy it might be a good idea to have a non ubuntu based fall-back install .

IMHO it's times like these that show the true brilliance of Ubuntu's release cycle. I have both Lucid and Natty running quite well (although I've had a few crashes with Firefox 5) and that allows plenty of transition time :)

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 09:16 PM
I had to take a break from the physical work .......... really had to because my cardiac dysrhythmia kicked up :)

So I took a look at the disc space requirement bug and made a comment:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/775124

Does that make sense?

teh603
August 14th, 2011, 09:20 PM
Makes sense, but I don't think the developers will go for either one. The fact that it *has* to have an internet connection now makes me think there's some essential package being held back in the repositories and not being put on the install CD. Which makes it vulnerable to packet scrambling by ISPs and such.

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 09:26 PM
Makes sense, but I don't think the developers will go for either one. The fact that it *has* to have an internet connection now makes me think there's some essential package being held back in the repositories and not being put on the install CD. Which makes it vulnerable to packet scrambling by ISPs and such.

Well your comment tends to tell me that I didn't communicate well enough that the "internet connection" requirement does NOT stop installation.

OTOH the disc space requirement can NOT be overridden :D

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 09:38 PM
Reading that over again I just don't see how I can better clarify that :confused:

I wish someone could comment there regarding whether the lack of a wired power source stops installation or not :D

Something I hadn't thought to mention there is how most installation options are displayed following that screen. It varies greatly depending on how many drives/partitions/OS's you have ;)

Maybe the following screen should just say something like, "the installer shows you lack sufficient space, continue only if you wish to override the default specs, this may result in a failed installation".

kansasnoob
August 14th, 2011, 09:47 PM
Actually this bug is still included in the release notes:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/766265

Specifically:


Ubiquity desktop installer proceeds to use free space without warning, if sufficient free space exists, and "install alongside" is selected, then clicking on the forward button just begins the installation without warning.

I think they even used my poor punctuation :oops:

So maybe if they plan on making some changes regarding that they could also tweak things to display the type of warning I'm suggesting instead of preventing installation altogether.

I dunno :confused:

ronacc
August 14th, 2011, 11:40 PM
over the years ubiquity has caused me more grief than any other part of Ubuntu although the pathological hatred some of the devs have for Nvidia is a close second .