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macroshaft
May 6th, 2011, 12:50 PM
I found this rather interesting interview with Mark Shuttleworth today.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/05/mark-shuttleworth-talks-windicators-changes-for-unity-in-oneiric-and-whole-lot-more/

CreativeReach
May 6th, 2011, 07:36 PM
I found this rather interesting interview with Mark Shuttleworth today.

http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2011/05/mark-shuttleworth-talks-windicators-changes-for-unity-in-oneiric-and-whole-lot-more/

I almost dropped dead when I read he preferred the Iphone!

macroshaft
May 6th, 2011, 07:56 PM
I almost dropped dead when I read he preferred the Iphone!

To be honest I saw that coming, show's he's open minded I guess.

dext
May 7th, 2011, 12:26 AM
I almost dropped dead when I read he preferred the Iphone!

that wouldnt surprise me being that Unity is a MacOSX rippoff

cariboo907
May 7th, 2011, 12:49 AM
that wouldnt surprise me being that Unity is a MacOSX rippoff

Many people say this, but nobody has done a comparison, would you care to?

dext
May 7th, 2011, 01:00 AM
Many people say this, but nobody has done a comparison, would you care to?

so you say. but i think its quite obvious where the MacOSX rippoff is in Unity.

CreativeReach
May 7th, 2011, 01:49 AM
They have some major differences, now if Ubuntu had adopted docky, you would have a leg to stand on

http://netdna.webdesignerdepot.com/uploads/2009/03/mac-osx-leopard.jpg

Big difference!

http://tipsneeded.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Download-Ubuntu-11.04-Beta.jpg

we also have the dash :KS

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/_1QSDkzYY2vc/TW6uXrtwwTI/AAAAAAAADRQ/ZOSmtFdK3kc/ubuntu_11.04-screenshot.png

VMC
May 7th, 2011, 05:27 AM
I don't see any similarities. In fact Gnome Classic looks more like a Mac than Unity ever did.

jamesjenner
May 7th, 2011, 05:41 AM
The only thing I can see borrowed from the Mac is the application menu being at the top of the screen.

It's about the only thing in Unity that annoys me. This is because I run at a very high resolution on a humongously big monitor and when I have multiple applications open it's a pain in the *** moving the mouse all the way to the top. Oh I know, keyboard shortcuts, and as I get used to the short cuts then it wont be suck a big deal, but I find a visual issue when I'm looking at an app that is over 20 inches away from the menu and then having to adjust where I'm looking. I'm sure on monitors smaller than say 22 inches it's not a big deal, but on my 30 inch, it gets old fast.

I spose one could argue that the dock with how it's a combined launcher and indicator for what is running is similar in it's functionality to the dock on OSX, though to me it's more echoing Windows 7 in it's approach, and even then it's still got differences IMO.

Cheers,

James.

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 08:52 AM
The only thing I can see borrowed from the Mac is the application menu being at the top of the screen.

It's about the only thing in Unity that annoys me. This is because I run at a very high resolution on a humongously big monitor and when I have multiple applications open it's a pain in the *** moving the mouse all the way to the top. Oh I know, keyboard shortcuts, and as I get used to the short cuts then it wont be suck a big deal, but I find a visual issue when I'm looking at an app that is over 20 inches away from the menu and then having to adjust where I'm looking. I'm sure on monitors smaller than say 22 inches it's not a big deal, but on my 30 inch, it gets old fast.

Join the Ayatana mailing list and complain to the designers. That's what I've been trying to do.

teachop
May 7th, 2011, 09:40 AM
I don't see any similarities. In fact Gnome Classic looks more like a Mac than Unity ever did.
What is similar is the concept. The elimination of a window list is to me the biggest usability change introduced in the natty/unity cycle. Relying on icons in the dock with small markers for active programs seems mac-like. The introduction of expose was a big usability improvement on the mac filling this gap somewhat. Now I find myself using compiz scale on unity exactly the same way.

As has been stated global menus are also mac-like.

In use I find them similar in work flow, I agree they look somewhat different.

Kazade
May 7th, 2011, 10:40 AM
I don't see any similarities. In fact Gnome Classic looks more like a Mac than Unity ever did.

It's quite common for people to position their dock on the left on OSX. Take that into account and:

1. The dock
2. The monochrome logo at the top left
3. The monochrome notification area, made up of menus
4. The location and order of the window buttons
5. The global menu (although Unity managed to mess up that concept)

Yes we have the dash, and yes we have music players in the sound menu. But everything else is basically OSX. I thought the indicators were us being innovative until I tried OSX. Sigh.

teachop
May 7th, 2011, 10:54 AM
It's quite common for people to position their dock on the left on OSX. Take that into account and:

1. The dock
2. The monochrome logo at the top left
3. The monochrome notification area, made up of menus
4. The location and order of the window buttons
5. The global menu (although Unity managed to mess up that concept)

Yes we have the dash, and yes we have music players in the sound menu. But everything else is basically OSX. I thought the indicators were us being innovative until I tried OSX. Sigh.
Now lets learn one more Apple trick, the Snow Leopard cycle was for OSX not about features, it was about refinement. Lets have a cycle like that for 11.10, and take care of underlying stability and performance. Hardware compatibility and support could stand to get a large share of resources and attention this time.

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 11:03 AM
It's quite common for people to position their dock on the left on OSX. Take that into account and:

1. The dock
2. The monochrome logo at the top left
3. The monochrome notification area, made up of menus
4. The location and order of the window buttons
5. The global menu (although Unity managed to mess up that concept)

Yes we have the dash, and yes we have music players in the sound menu. But everything else is basically OSX. I thought the indicators were us being innovative until I tried OSX. Sigh.
I'll list some differences for you then :)

1. The dash
2. Lenses
3. When you close an application, it is actually closed, not just minimised.
4. The Ubuntu Software Center(This is a case of Mac adapting an Ubuntu feature, if anything)
5. Quicklists

Unity is an amalgam of Windows and OSX, there's nothing wrong with that.

teachop
May 7th, 2011, 11:28 AM
I'll list some differences for you then :)

1. The dash

I clicked on that once or twice early on, but I am finding in actual use that is no longer happening...

Kazade
May 7th, 2011, 01:16 PM
I'll list some differences for you then :)

1. The dash
2. Lenses
3. When you close an application, it is actually closed, not just minimised.
4. The Ubuntu Software Center(This is a case of Mac adapting an Ubuntu feature, if anything)
5. Quicklists

Unity is an amalgam of Windows and OSX, there's nothing wrong with that.

#1 and #2 are basically the same thing, and in fact I find #1 less than useful and both far from complete. Anyway, I've never used it but it looks to me just like Apple's spotlight in a different layout.

#3 is not true. The software center for example doesn't quit when you close it, neither do indicator apps. MPT said that we are moving that way.

#4 The software center is just an improvement on the previous Add/Remove.

#5 Hardly innovative, existed on docks for ages.

I don't mind borrowing features. What I do mind is almost entirely mimicking OSX, pretending that we aren't and then adding our own broken twist on those features to make them less usable than OSX (e.g. global menu).

I just hope to god that this cycle MPT gets more say, he seems to be overruled way too often.

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 01:39 PM
I clicked on that once or twice early on, but I am finding in actual use that is no longer happening...
Then I fully understand why you don't like using Unity. If you don't use the dash or the lenses, Unity sucks. Because "You're doing it wrong" (TM)

#1 and #2 are basically the same thing, and in fact I find #1 less than useful and both far from complete. Anyway, I've never used it but it looks to me just like Apple's spotlight in a different layout.
As you've never used it, your opinion isn't worth much, honestly.


#3 is not true. The software center for example doesn't quit when you close it, neither do indicator apps. MPT said that we are moving that way.
Have you used a Mac? What MPT talks about is not the same as what a Mac does. When you close the software center, Gwibber, or Empathy, the applications itself closes, and leaves only a light daemon running in the background. In the case of the Software Center, it completes the tasks you've asked it to do, then closes. In the case of Gwibber and Empathy, it monitors your social networking accounts.

What I am talking about on Mac is that when you click the close button on an application window, it seems like it's closed, but it's actually just been hidden and minimised. In order to really close it, you have to right-click on it on the dock. There s a big difference.


#4 The software center is just an improvement on the previous Add/Remove.
I don't disagree with you, but this is an argument against Unity being an OSX rip-off, so this has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion.


#5 Hardly innovative, existed on docks for ages.
Yes, but not ripped from OSX. That is the point.


I don't mind borrowing features. What I do mind is almost entirely mimicking OSX, pretending that we aren't and then adding our own broken twist on those features to make them less usable than OSX (e.g. global menu).
How is it less usable?? On Mac, you hardly ever have you windows maximised, always leaving space between the menubar and the application window. Unity seems way more efficient to me, I don't understand how you.. Oh, wait, you haven't used it.

I just hope to god that this cycle MPT gets more say, he seems to be overruled way too often.
Source please. Also, go try Unity for a few days before bitching again please.

teachop
May 7th, 2011, 01:46 PM
Then I fully understand why you don't like using Unity. If you don't use the dash or the lenses, Unity sucks. Because "You're doing it wrong" (TM)
I have been using unity at home and work all week, used it some in the Alpha and Beta phases. I didn't say I didn't like it or that Unity sucks. Did I?

I have a Mac too, so it seemed like my input was relevant, as this topic veered off in that direction. What am I doing wrong? I like using Compiz slide for task switching, and alt-F2 to start stuff that isn't on the Launcher, is that wrong?

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 01:50 PM
I have been using unity at home and work all week, used it some in the Alpha and Beta phases. I didn't say I didn't like it or that Unity sucks. Did I?

I have a Mac too, so it seemed like my input was relevant, as this topic veered off in that direction. What am I doing wrong? I like using Compiz slide for task switching, and alt-F2 to start stuff that isn't on the Launcher, is that wrong?

No, but it does seem a little silly when the dash is superior to alt+F2, especially in its current state.

teachop
May 7th, 2011, 01:55 PM
No, but it does seem a little silly when the dash is superior to alt+F2, especially in its current state.
Try typing "gconf-editor" in Dash and see how superior it is... You are expressing a personal preference, you know.

NCLI
May 7th, 2011, 02:30 PM
Try typing "gconf-editor" in Dash and see how superior it is... You are expressing a personal preference, you know.
Ah, but that is a very technical application, which really shouldn't show up in the dash if you ask me. The dash is for day-to-day application launching, and for that purpose, it is superior to alt+F2, which actually requires that you know the exact name of the application you want to launch.

macroshaft
May 7th, 2011, 02:58 PM
I have been using unity at home and work all week, used it some in the Alpha and Beta phases. I didn't say I didn't like it or that Unity sucks. Did I?

I have a Mac too, so it seemed like my input was relevant, as this topic veered off in that direction. What am I doing wrong? I like using Compiz slide for task switching, and alt-F2 to start stuff that isn't on the Launcher, is that wrong?

Canonical have provided us with a set of tools, does it really matter how we choose to use them as long as we are happy? I don't think there is such a thing as a right way to use unity is there? Whatever you're comfortable with.

Kazade
May 7th, 2011, 06:19 PM
Then I fully understand why you don't like using Unity. If you don't use the dash or the lenses, Unity sucks. Because "You're doing it wrong" (TM)

As you've never used it, your opinion isn't worth much, honestly.


Sigh, I haven't used SPOTLIGHT, of course I've used Unity.



Have you used a Mac? What MPT talks about is not the same as what a Mac does. When you close the software center, Gwibber, or Empathy, the applications itself closes, and leaves only a light daemon running in the background. In the case of the Software Center, it completes the tasks you've asked it to do, then closes. In the case of Gwibber and Empathy, it monitors your social networking accounts.

What I am talking about on Mac is that when you click the close button on an application window, it seems like it's closed, but it's actually just been hidden and minimised. In order to really close it, you have to right-click on it on the dock. There s a big difference.


Seems like semantics... really. The program is still running.


I don't disagree with you, but this is an argument against Unity being an OSX rip-off, so this has absolutely nothing to do with the current discussion.

Yes, but not ripped from OSX. That is the point.


I didn't bring up the software center... it's not related to Unity, it's a separate project.



How is it less usable?? On Mac, you hardly ever have you windows maximised, always leaving space between the menubar and the application window. Unity seems way more efficient to me, I don't understand how you.. Oh, wait, you haven't used it.


Mac uses the global menu because it's an easier target to hit if it's at the edge of the screen. This is Fitt's Law in action, and that was part of the reason why it was chosen for use in Ubuntu. MPT has written about it several times. Then, unknown to him, Mark came up with the idea of hiding the menu behind the title, making it impossible for you to target a menu item correctly and undoing the benefit of the global menu in the first place. MPT was annoyed and ranted about it in a bug report and on the Ayatana mailing list. He was overruled.


Source please. Also, go try Unity for a few days before bitching again please.

See above point, go check the Ayatana archives. And for christ's sake don't jump to conclusions. I've used Unity for months.

jbicha
May 7th, 2011, 10:49 PM
Now lets learn one more Apple trick, the Snow Leopard cycle was for OSX not about features, it was about refinement. Lets have a cycle like that for 11.10, and take care of underlying stability and performance. Hardware compatibility and support could stand to get a large share of resources and attention this time.

That's what the 12.04 cycle is for.

Merk42
May 8th, 2011, 12:33 AM
When he said iPhone, my thought wasn't the whole Unity / OS X thing, but rather "so you use a phone that's not officially supported by your own OS?"

NCLI
May 8th, 2011, 01:44 PM
Sigh, I haven't used SPOTLIGHT, of course I've used Unity.
Regardless of which one you haven't used, the point still stands.

Seems like semantics... really. The program is still running.
No, it isn't. A daemon is running, the application itself has been closed. If you'd used a Mac, you'd know the difference.


I didn't bring up the software center... it's not related to Unity, it's a separate project.
Fair point, I'll use a different example: The integration of both menubar and window controls into the top panel.


Mac uses the global menu because it's an easier target to hit if it's at the edge of the screen. This is Fitt's Law in action, and that was part of the reason why it was chosen for use in Ubuntu. MPT has written about it several times. Then, unknown to him, Mark came up with the idea of hiding the menu behind the title, making it impossible for you to target a menu item correctly and undoing the benefit of the global menu in the first place. MPT was annoyed and ranted about it in a bug report and on the Ayatana mailing list. He was overruled.
MPT is one designer out of many. Once you've discovered where the menubar is, I don't see how it being hidden has anything to do with Fitt's law, it's still an easy target.


See above point, go check the Ayatana archives. And for christ's sake don't jump to conclusions. I've used Unity for months.
Sorry, but your post was unclear in some parts.

Ironically, you jump to conclusions here: I subscribe to the Ayatana mailing list, and read it pretty much every day.

jamesjenner
May 9th, 2011, 12:48 AM
Join the Ayatana mailing list and complain to the designers. That's what I've been trying to do.

I'll give that a bash but I don't hold much hope. I presume that the next release will include more customisation options but I suspect that this won't not include positioning of the menu, it has the feel of a specific design decision. I just don't think they've thought through the implications.

Cheers,

James.

rg4w
May 9th, 2011, 03:16 AM
Mac uses the global menu because it's an easier target to hit if it's at the edge of the screen. This is Fitt's Law in action, and that was part of the reason why it was chosen for use in Ubuntu. MPT has written about it several times. Then, unknown to him, Mark came up with the idea of hiding the menu behind the title, making it impossible for you to target a menu item correctly and undoing the benefit of the global menu in the first place. MPT was annoyed and ranted about it in a bug report and on the Ayatana mailing list. He was overruled.
What time frame should I go to in the Ayatana archives for that exchange?

cgroza
May 9th, 2011, 03:19 AM
I don't see any similarities. In fact Gnome Classic looks more like a Mac than Unity ever did.
Non techie persons actually make that confusion when they see GNOME the first time.

Happened to me.

cgroza
May 9th, 2011, 03:22 AM
When he said iPhone, my thought wasn't the whole Unity / OS X thing, but rather "so you use a phone that's not officially supported by your own OS?"
Can't the guy have a personal preference? Everything does not need to be about the OS.

CreativeReach
May 9th, 2011, 03:32 AM
Can't the guy have a personal preference? Everything does not need to be about the OS.

It's his preference, but Ubuntu is great because its open. And Android is great because it is open, so it would be cool, but theirs nothing ethicly wrong.

Merk42
May 9th, 2011, 03:59 AM
It's his preference, but Ubuntu is great because its open. And Android is great because it is open, so it would be cool, but theirs nothing ethicly wrong.I don't even care about the whole open/closed thing, I just found it funny he uses a phone that's not officially supported on the OS he uses.

Johnsie
May 9th, 2011, 02:06 PM
Maybe he likes the features it has

seeker5528
May 10th, 2011, 02:08 AM
No, but it does seem a little silly when the dash is superior to alt+F2, especially in its current state.

Two different things.

If you want to type a command to run, the run box ('Alt'+'F2') is superior.

If you want to search through a more limited selection of installed applications and don't need to specify any arguments, then Dash is superior.

Are you one of those people who go to Google to type in a web address, instead of just typing the address in the address bar? :p

Later, Seeker