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View Full Version : "Window Indicators" - Mark Shuttleworth



fluteflute
May 3rd, 2010, 11:22 AM
http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333

Mark plans to essentially introduce panel indicators in the top right corner of windows.

I think this is quite exciting to see Ubuntu coming up with truly new ideas/concepts. It's something that sets us apart from the competition.

Not quite sure how it will work yet though to be honest...

chriswyatt
May 3rd, 2010, 11:31 AM
Hmm, interesting. It's actually just reminded me of Hyperoid on Windows 3.1, that had indicators on the title bar (I think telling you how many lives, smart bombs you had etc. ).

matthew.ball
May 3rd, 2010, 11:39 AM
I believe they want to eliminate the "indicator applet" or whatever (where the wifi connectivity, battery and sound control applets are located), and this is probably the first step to doing so.

I think it could be pretty interesting, though I still haven't updated to 10.04 and thus haven't even experienced the left-side window controls...

standingwave
May 3rd, 2010, 12:04 PM
It looks to me like it's more of a move towards eliminating the status bar on application windows as this proposed icon area would be application specific rather than system specific. This might be especially handy for Netbooks and other small devices where vertical space is a premium.

Desktop and/or system-wide indicators (battery, sound, etc.) really should be handled on the panel/status bar/shell/conky etc. and not on application windows. If app developers are abusing the indicator and notification areas (and many are, imo) then that's a reason to address those developers and not a reason to create yet another piece of screen real estate for them to abuse.

elkikin
May 3rd, 2010, 01:06 PM
I like the idea that when a window is maximized, everything would show up in the panel: windows controls, title/menu (on hover), indicators, etc.

I hope they can pull this off even for apps such as OpenOffice and Firefox, because consistency is very important. IMO, it should at least support every app shipped by default.

Merk42
May 3rd, 2010, 02:44 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.

tgalati4
May 3rd, 2010, 03:24 PM
Ouch.

MindSz
May 3rd, 2010, 03:28 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.

hahaha +1

sydbat
May 3rd, 2010, 03:34 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, exactly like your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.There...fixed it for you...

Sand & Mercury
May 3rd, 2010, 03:37 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.
oh, you mad

jrothwell97
May 3rd, 2010, 03:37 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
It still is.

Available with hardware retailers like Dell
It still is.


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
*sigh* here we go again...

Windicators[/list]
Veering back to the thread topic, I rather like the idea. It certainly makes sense to make the top-right the "standard" area for notifications and indicators, given that that's how it is in GNOME, too.

Given the current mess around volume controls (consider that Rhythmbox, for example, has three: one in the app, one PulseAudio control, and the overall system volume control) the idea of integrating it into the title bar is very interesting.

So this is why the window controls moved to the left - that should satisfy some people.

(Not all, of course. ;))

Simian Man
May 3rd, 2010, 03:38 PM
Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.

Nice. Also, unlike Apple, Ubuntu doesn't have control over the way the software for their platform is written. Even if they remove the status bar and add these indicators for some programs, they can't (and shouldn't) do so for the plethora of Linux software available. If this isn't done in a uniform manner, I think it loses any appeal it may have.

brunovecchi
May 3rd, 2010, 03:42 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.

What makes you think that Mark alone came up with the design? He clearly states on his blogpost that he's working with the design team for UI improvements. And I think it shows.

NCLI
May 3rd, 2010, 03:57 PM
I'm not totally sold on this idea, but I think the main reason why is the horrible, horrible sketch Mark posted on his blog. No offense, but the Windicators sketched there (http://www.markshuttleworth.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/windicators-mockup.png) look horrible, IMO.

oedipuss
May 3rd, 2010, 04:07 PM
Even if they remove the status bar and add these indicators for some programs, they can't (and shouldn't) do so for the plethora of Linux software available. If this isn't done in a uniform manner, I think it loses any appeal it may have.

They wouldn't need to change every piece of software available, though. Not even a significant percentage of them. Just the ubuntu defaults, and a small number of frequently used extra applications would do the trick, as far as consistency is concerned. I'll agree that if something like that isn't consistent it isn't worth it, but it can give a pretty solid impression of consistency, just by changing (and maintaining) a manageable number of applications.

If I understand it correctly, these indicators would be drawn by the window decorator, wouldn't they? That could pose a problem with anything other than metacity / mutter.. Even possibly compiz. Any details on how it's actually going to be implemented?

MaxIBoy
May 3rd, 2010, 04:12 PM
Shuttleworth had a good idea for once! And I finally begin to understand why the window management buttons got moved over to the left. (Although I still think they should stay on the right, with the status buttons laid out between them and the title.)

Bravo, Shuttleworth! (Or Canonical's UI department, as the case may be.) I hope the compiz devs implement this!

Although, what about windows that are minimized? I think in that case, notifications should go in the window list. That would be sort of like what Apple tried to do, but without all the ambiguity.

m4tic
May 3rd, 2010, 04:18 PM
you could always reinstall fresh GNOME, debian style

antenna
May 3rd, 2010, 04:18 PM
I don't want to be rude (okay a little) but this sounds like something KDE would come up with. Don't like the idea so far but will see I guess.

Simian Man
May 3rd, 2010, 04:21 PM
They wouldn't need to change every piece of software available, though. Not even a significant percentage of them. Just the ubuntu defaults, and a small number of frequently used extra applications would do the trick, as far as consistency is concerned. I'll agree that if something like that isn't consistent it isn't worth it, but it can give a pretty solid impression of consistency, just by changing (and maintaining) a manageable number of applications.
One of Linux's biggest selling points is that there is so much selection when it comes to software. When you start adding in software that doesn't come installed and it changes the way your desktop works, that is a bad thing. Also if you install anything outside of the package manager you will lose these notifications as well.


If I understand it correctly, these indicators would be drawn by the window decorator, wouldn't they? That could pose a problem with anything other than metacity / mutter.. Even possibly compiz. Any details on how it's actually going to be implemented?
That's another big problem. If you have Ubuntu's version of, say, Rhythmbox that has been hacked to move key functionality into the title bar, what happens if you use Xfwm as your window manager? Or Kwin, Openbox or one of the other plethora of WMs? Even if they implement this for Metacity, Mutter and Compiz - which is going to be hard itself - they will still have broken programs for tons of other users.

The fact is that Linux desktops just don't work this way. It's fine and dandy to think of some idea and post it on your blog, but actually implementing this would break so many things and make desktop Linux even more of a mess than it already is.

MaxIBoy
May 3rd, 2010, 04:26 PM
If I understand it correctly, these indicators would be drawn by the window decorator, wouldn't they? That could pose a problem with anything other than metacity / mutter.. Even possibly compiz. Any details on how it's actually going to be implemented?
Nope. From the blog:

Cody Russell is leading some work in Canonical around the technology which actually draws the window title bar and borders. It’s called “client side window decorations”. We are moving the rendering of the window decorations into the app itself, so that you don’t have the window manager and application drawing those pieces separately. That simplifies certain things (of course it also makes some things harder).
I've said this before, but I just hope they push this upstream. It would be a mistake of mind-boggling proportions to make this Ubuntu-only. Maybe the GNOME devs won't accept the patches, but Canonical can still maintain them as a "patchset" similar to what Con Kolivas does for the kernel.

I also hope they have fallbacks to a traditional freedesktop-specified systray built into their API.

EDIT: It appears Shuttleworth isn't stupid. This is a reply to one of the comments on his blog:

Mark Shuttleworth: I don’t think we’d want the added overhead of a control mechanism per-app. I think app’s would likely have some options for this, when it was relevant. Apps would certainly also need to detect when the windicator mechanism was not present, and fall back to a traditional UI approach.So the responsibility is on those who write applications. However, I bet there'll be some kind of wrapper library which does all the work for you.

23meg
May 3rd, 2010, 04:33 PM
That's another big problem. If you have Ubuntu's version of, say, Rhythmbox that has been hacked to move key functionality into the title bar, what happens if you use Xfwm as your window manager? Or Kwin, Openbox or one of the other plethora of WMs? Even if they implement this for Metacity, Mutter and Compiz - which is going to be hard itself - they will still have broken programs for tons of other users.

That would be the least of your worries, since

Key functionality wouldn't ever exclusively be moved to the title bar without a sane fallback for systems without client-side window decoration capabilities (which would perhaps be a more widespread use case than alternative WMs for some years)


Since this will apparently be handled through a standardized D-BUS framework similar to (and possibly based on) KStatusNotifier / application indicators (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators), there would be nothing stopping anyone from implementing a simple host functionality in their favorite WM (by means of a plugin, branch or patch set even if upstreams aren't interested in maintaining the facility).

zekopeko
May 3rd, 2010, 04:41 PM
I remember everyone raving about this video some time ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsZvwyxJ9vk

Pretty similar in some aspects. At least for the Netbook Edition.

proxess
May 3rd, 2010, 04:42 PM
Can someone give us a PROPER mock-up of Windicators?

Merk42
May 3rd, 2010, 04:47 PM
Is the fact that two of the most popular default applications, Firefox and OpenOffice.org, are not written in GTK+ a problem?

jrothwell97
May 3rd, 2010, 04:50 PM
Is the fact that two of the most popular default applications, Firefox and OpenOffice.org, are not written in GTK+ a problem?
I'd imagine not, since DBus handles this in a similar way to the new indicator system. (Incidentally, it seems possible that they might move away from Firefox in Maverick anyway, given that one of the goals is speed and Firefox... well... isn't speedy.)

zekopeko
May 3rd, 2010, 05:21 PM
I'd imagine not, since DBus handles this in a similar way to the new indicator system. (Incidentally, it seems possible that they might move away from Firefox in Maverick anyway, given that one of the goals is speed and Firefox... well... isn't speedy.)

Try 3.7. Speedy. Plus you can't beat addons.

Merk42
May 3rd, 2010, 05:30 PM
(Incidentally, it seems possible that they might move away from Firefox in Maverick anyway, given that one of the goals is speed and Firefox... well... isn't speedy.)

To what? Chrome/Chromium? As far as I know that's even worse. Nontheless there is OpenOffice.org anyway.

So I went to post the following on Mark's blog and it has been "flagged by Akismet as potential spam, and is awaiting moderation."

Everyone is excited about sound. So there will be the volume indicator, the volume windicator and the applications existing volume level? I thought Ayatana was about removing clutter?

Why exactly did this require the close/maximize/minimize buttons on the left?
Why couldn’t the buttons have remained where they were and the “Windicators” up against them on the left?
Look at the existing top bar, going from right to left, it’s shutdown, me menu, clock THEN indicator applet.
For consistency it should have Close (shutdown) Maximize/Minize (status of window like me status), then the Windicators. What, anything that's not a glowing review of how our almighty Lord Shuttleworth shall not be questioned is potential spam now?

zekopeko
May 3rd, 2010, 05:35 PM
To what? Chrome/Chromium? As far as I know that's even worse. Nontheless there is OpenOffice.org anyway.

So I went to post the following on Mark's blog and it has been "flagged by Akismet as potential spam, and is awaiting moderation."
What, anything that's not a glowing review of how our almighty Lord Shuttleworth shall not be questioned is potential spam now?

Akismet is an anti-spam app. Stop being paranoid.

I don't see why the close button should be on the right. Makes more sense to have them on the left and all the indicators on the right.
Close/Minimize/Maximize aren't windows states. They are actions.

Mark76
May 3rd, 2010, 05:44 PM
I like the idea that when a window is maximized, everything would show up in the panel: windows controls, title/menu (on hover), indicators, etc.

Isn't that Amiga workbench? :confused:

mosshorn
May 3rd, 2010, 06:09 PM
Personally I think this would be a great idea. I'm one of those people that hate taskbars, docks, and usually anything to put any seam on my desktop. I have 1 taskbar for everything right now, so if an effective way to bring that to the window itself was implemented, I would be happy indeed :)

Merk42
May 3rd, 2010, 06:17 PM
Akismet is an anti-spam app. Stop being paranoid.

I don't see why the close button should be on the right. Makes more sense to have them on the left and all the indicators on the right.
Close/Minimize/Maximize aren't windows states. They are actions.

And Shutdown is an action, guess that should go on the left before Applications Places System

I see my comment has been entered in. It just bothered me that mine was flagged for spam, yet when I looked the following comment by Dylan McCall was already accepted.

Mr. Picklesworth
May 3rd, 2010, 06:23 PM
Given the current mess around volume controls (consider that Rhythmbox, for example, has three: one in the app, one PulseAudio control, and the overall system volume control) the idea of integrating it into the title bar is very interesting.

That's actually been brought down to two things that affect volume in Rhythmbox. The in-app volume control directly adjusts the volume of its PulseAudio stream. So, if you use the knob in Rhythmbox with the Sound Preferences Applications section open, you'll see something magical happen. Same for Totem. Still waiting for Banshee to do the same…

Oh well, back to the discussion! :)

DeadSuperHero
May 3rd, 2010, 06:25 PM
Truthfully, I'm not a very big fan of this idea.

Ayatana notifications - good
Indicator applets replacing Notification Area - good
Window buttons on the left - Eh, alright. Why not.
Adding a bunch of indicator applets specific to the program on the right side of the window - WTF

I rather preferred that one designer's mockup of using Zeitgeist for related applications and files. Seemed more intuitive to me.

Simian Man
May 3rd, 2010, 06:30 PM
That would be the least of your worries, since

Key functionality wouldn't ever exclusively be moved to the title bar without a sane fallback for systems without client-side window decoration capabilities (which would perhaps be a more widespread use case than alternative WMs for some years)


Since this will apparently be handled through a standardized D-BUS framework similar to (and possibly based on) KStatusNotifier / application indicators (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopExperienceTeam/ApplicationIndicators), there would be nothing stopping anyone from implementing a simple host functionality in their favorite WM (by means of a plugin, branch or patch set even if upstreams aren't interested in maintaining the facility).

That doesn't change the fact that this idea is either going to have to be implemented in a half-assed fashion - ie some applications behaving differently from others and possibly different with different window managers running. Or it's going to require a ton of work on several different projects which will create an even bigger rift between Ubuntu and the rest of the Linux ecosystem.

Is this idea really worth either of those cases? It seems pretty stupid to me.

chriswyatt
May 3rd, 2010, 06:42 PM
Sticking a per-application volume control on the top-right would be neat :).

EDIT: Oops, should've read the thread properly first, apologies.

zekopeko
May 3rd, 2010, 06:44 PM
That doesn't change the fact that this idea is either going to have to be implemented in a half-assed fashion - ie some applications behaving differently from others and possibly different with different window managers running. Or it's going to require a ton of work on several different projects which will create an even bigger rift between Ubuntu and the rest of the Linux ecosystem.

Is this idea really worth either of those cases? It seems pretty stupid to me.

You mean like notify-osd? Or application indicators? Applications are supporting the first and are starting to support the second. If the app doesn't support it no loss of functionality there. It's optional.

Madspyman
May 3rd, 2010, 07:10 PM
Saw the mock up, it looks like Ubuntu's got a real mess on its hands for Maverick. I thought Ubuntu was supposed to be light themed now. I like how uncluttered the windows are now, as opposed to the top panel. I don't think moving a mess to a different area constitutes as cleaning it up. Also moving things seems to be the only idea sabdfl can think of these days.

Ariakkas
May 3rd, 2010, 08:03 PM
while the change of the buttons to the left didnt bother me, i got used to it quite quickly, i understand some peoples worries in here.

i use chromium as my default browser, and am midly irked that the close button for individual tabs cannot be moved to the left side to match.

so while i got used to going to the left to close, i now go to the left side of the tab to close, and causes a mental hiccup when i realize it isnt there.

if these windicators are working for some apps, and not for others, the whole idea falls apart

Mark76
May 3rd, 2010, 08:18 PM
Yeah. What's the point unless Ubuntu is only going to ship with GTK specific apps in the future? And we all know how likely that is to happen :p ;)

MacUntu
May 3rd, 2010, 08:27 PM
Mark is the new Steve! >:D

Roasted
May 3rd, 2010, 08:32 PM
I believe they want to eliminate the "indicator applet" or whatever (where the wifi connectivity, battery and sound control applets are located), and this is probably the first step to doing so.

I think it could be pretty interesting, though I still haven't updated to 10.04 and thus haven't even experienced the left-side window controls...

I hope that's not entirely true. I always *always* want my volume/wifi/battery to be visible to me no matter what window I'm on...

Polmac
May 3rd, 2010, 09:05 PM
I hope that's not entirely true. I always *always* want my volume/wifi/battery to be visible to me no matter what window I'm on...

No, they're not removing it, they are just going to make it different. Indicators will be there, including of course a sound indicator, that will be always visible.

What is proposed here is having 2 sound indicators: one global, to change the sound of all the apps, and another one related to every single window, which would affect only this window.

For example, you are browsing the web and you enter a website which plays sound and offers no way to disable it; you will be able to turn off the sound of the Firefox window so that it don't disturb using its sound indicator, and the rest of the system will still have sound enabled. If you want to disable the sound for all your system, you turn it off in your global indicator.

NCLI
May 3rd, 2010, 09:31 PM
This mockup(Posted by Dieki over at OMG! Ubuntu!) looks great, and has officially removed my design apprehension.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_117_dSzJg2A/S98R6M-ntCI/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6qkkF0zP1iY/s720/Mockup.png

YuiDaoren
May 3rd, 2010, 09:49 PM
Just so long as the buttons can be moved back to the right.

I'm really not interested in having to re-do decades of habit just to accommodate moving some widgets into the title bar. (Plus, given the example in NCLI's post, really not looking forward to clicking the window closed and finding myself desperately trying to turn the volume back down.)

Ariakkas
May 3rd, 2010, 09:52 PM
i dont understand why people are so against change. if you honestly gave it effort and were open to the idea, you would get used to the new buttons very quickly.


you are far more resilient than you give yourself credit for.

NCLI
May 3rd, 2010, 09:53 PM
Just so long as the buttons can be moved back to the right.

I'm really not interested in having to re-do decades of habit just to accommodate moving some widgets into the title bar. (Plus, given the example in NCLI's post, really not looking forward to clicking the window closed and finding myself desperately trying to turn the volume back down.)

Please remember that the mock-up I posted is in no way official.

YuiDaoren
May 3rd, 2010, 09:54 PM
Please remember that the mock-up I posted is in no way official.
Please understand that, like the mock-up illustrates an idea, what I was saying merely illustrates a concern.

Chrysantine
May 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM
i dont understand why people are so against change. if you honestly gave it effort and were open to the idea, you would get used to the new buttons very quickly.
People hate change of any kind. They're only comfortable with what they know which is slightly ironic as one of the driving factors of innovation is trying out new things to see if they work better than your old ones adopting them if they do. :)

YuiDaoren
May 3rd, 2010, 09:56 PM
i dont understand why people are so against change. if you honestly gave it effort and were open to the idea, you would get used to the new buttons very quickly.


you are far more resilient than you give yourself credit for.
I have no interest in re-establishing habits. I prefer to spend that time and effort, no matter how small you might consider it to be, being productive.

chriswyatt
May 3rd, 2010, 10:40 PM
This mockup(Posted by Dieki over at OMG! Ubuntu!) looks great, and has officially removed my design apprehension.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_117_dSzJg2A/S98R6M-ntCI/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6qkkF0zP1iY/s720/Mockup.png

I know this is just a mockup and there's a good chance the controls won't get moved up there. But I'm personally not in favour of the controls being in the top-right like they are in this example. They seem too out of the way.

Things like turning Rhythmbox into a mini-player or minimising to a GNOME app would be far better things to stick up here IMO.

chriswyatt
May 3rd, 2010, 10:47 PM
Then again, I'm not sure. Maybe I do like the controls up there. I'm confused.

kavon89
May 3rd, 2010, 11:09 PM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.

Well put.

Sand & Mercury
May 3rd, 2010, 11:25 PM
I still pretty much think my idea was awesomer. (http://sand-and-mercury.deviantart.com/art/Shelf-UI-Part-I-Animated-128473929)

oldos2er
May 3rd, 2010, 11:28 PM
I think this is quite exciting to see Ubuntu coming up with truly new ideas/concepts.

Meh. I searched in vain for some screenshots of x-it on OS/2, but stuffing icons/buttons on a titlebar is not new.

seeker5528
May 3rd, 2010, 11:46 PM
I don't want to be rude (okay a little) but this sounds like something KDE would come up with. Don't like the idea so far but will see I guess.

Apparently not..... Why you should not use client side window decorations (http://blog.martin-graesslin.com/blog/2010/05/why-you-should-not-use-client-side-window-decorations/)

Personally I don't really see the usefulness of windicators.

Is there going to be a fallback process where depending what's available it will fall back from windicator to indicator to notification area?

Will it even make sense to have a fallback? The windicator area may get used for stuff you wouldn't want to have in the indicator/tray area.

I'm not making any judgments until there is something to see. As long as the windicators don't get in the way when they are active and the application doesn't seem broken when they are not able to be displayed, I'm happy.

Later, Seeker

MCVenom
May 3rd, 2010, 11:47 PM
I still pretty much think my idea was awesomer. (http://sand-and-mercury.deviantart.com/art/Shelf-UI-Part-I-Animated-128473929)
It was, but -1 for the shameless self-promotion. :p

Mutiny32
May 4th, 2010, 12:19 AM
Do not want.](*,)

Merk42
May 4th, 2010, 04:59 AM
This mockup(Posted by Dieki over at OMG! Ubuntu!) looks great, and has officially removed my design apprehension.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_117_dSzJg2A/S98R6M-ntCI/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6qkkF0zP1iY/s720/Mockup.png

So let's take commonly used buttons and make them half their size and cluttered together?

How is that an improvement?

Mr. Picklesworth
May 4th, 2010, 07:59 AM
So let's take commonly used buttons and make them half their size and cluttered together?

How is that an improvement?

Thankfully, that mockup, though certainly pretty, rather completely misinterprets what is being proposed here :/

Think of it this way: Windicators replace the status bar.

Wim Sturkenboom
May 4th, 2010, 09:43 AM
Who needs buttons :confused: Just use the keyboard and we again have saved some space :lol:

pelle.k
May 4th, 2010, 10:18 AM
Drawing windows client side would mean one can introduce any kind of button (or widget) on the title bar really. I think people are afraid it will be over used. Right?

If you could focus on the possibilities for one second, and not give in to the fear automatically;
There's lots of cool uses for this. As i've proposed before, this enables the idea of having the menu in the window title bar instead of in it's own "bar". It could also enable developers to integrate global buttons (almost like notifications icons) that would enable features such as having window tiling options built right into the window title bar.

But then again, maybe it'll all be horrible, and we will all die a painful death! ;D

Random_Dude
May 4th, 2010, 10:20 AM
It might be a good idea, if I can still change it.

Ylon
May 4th, 2010, 10:22 AM
So let's take commonly used buttons and make them half their size and cluttered together?

How is that an improvement?

Well, I think the idea is to make become regular windows as natural desktop winget.
IE:
http://i41.tinypic.com/10f6n1s.png
Once an application cast their own "special buttons" the DM is free to manage them as it wish.

Grenage
May 4th, 2010, 10:30 AM
I think it's a retarded conception, doomed to fail. I've been wrong before.

mihai007
May 4th, 2010, 12:35 PM
This mockup(Posted by Dieki over at OMG! Ubuntu!) looks great, and has officially removed my design apprehension.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_117_dSzJg2A/S98R6M-ntCI/AAAAAAAAA3Y/6qkkF0zP1iY/s720/Mockup.png

Great! Now let's apply the same at Firefox! so place all back/forward/reload/go in the title bar. There...just for good measure. Now every time you want to use those buttons you will remember how stupid it is. Why on earth the most used buttons on a browser should be as tiny as possible and in a place that does not help at all??

So by the rhythmbox image, WHY on earth would you need play/pause/previous/next in the titlebar???
The idea of the buttons is to be able to easily use them (making them 12pixels buttons and placing in the farthest corner will not help the situation... )

And yes, I also think that the idea of those icons in titlebar was not meant to make prev/next/play/pause window indicators after all.
See, we don't have the feature yet but there are people already starting to make mock ups with all those useless indicators. Imagine some months from now when every programmer will think it looks good to have those 8 window indicators for all those functions he thinks (not the user) are handy. Then we have a mess interface! Full of small buttons everywhere...

I am not against this idea, but you have to prove it IS USEFUL.
Take gEdit. tell me how it could benefit with this idea, why using gEdit will be better using window indicators?

Just because you use one music/video player application that would benefit from volume control in there does not justify all the effort. What about the other 90% of the applications you use?
How applications like (gEdit,Terminal,Firefox,Transmission,Fspot,Brasero ,Pitivi,SimpleScan,OpenOffice) will benefit from this new invention?
Or are you only thinking about the volume control and online/offline (a feature that never used anywhere, did someone actually thought on investigating how many people use this feature before thinking of an window indicator that will be there for all people, even if used by 10-20%).

It's just that from what I saw, this idea does not improve something, it is just a new added feature along the existing ones, just to have something to talk about in the new version of application X or Y. I don't see how it can solve any problem... Convince me that this WILL in deed solve problems.

Half-Left
May 4th, 2010, 12:44 PM
Looks like bad usability to me. There are very small click points for such important features of the application, like play and such.

Rhythmbox is hardly a good example, since the progress bar takes up the full width of the window, which is silly and a waste of UI space.

23meg
May 4th, 2010, 01:05 PM
That doesn't change the fact that this idea is either going to have to be implemented in a half-assed fashion - ie some applications behaving differently from others and possibly different with different window managers running. Or it's going to require a ton of work on several different projects which will create an even bigger rift between Ubuntu and the rest of the Linux ecosystem.

Is this idea really worth either of those cases? It seems pretty stupid to me.

I would wait until the precise technical details emerge to judge that. Before that happens, we can only speculate.

Merk42
May 4th, 2010, 01:13 PM
Thankfully, that mockup, though certainly pretty, rather completely misinterprets what is being proposed here :/

Think of it this way: Windicators replace the status bar.

I don't think that's completely what's being proposed.
If you look at the mockup on markshuttleworth.com it looks like the status bar would temporarily pop-up when needed, like Chrome.

Typically the application status bar has:

* Some status icons (“online”)
* Some tools (“Yslow”)
* A transient status message (“Saving draft…”)

We can replace these with a combination of windicators and temporary, overlay status bars.

If it's "status icons", MAYBE I could see Windicators working, but if it's also "some tools" then you run into the problems being shown in the Rhythmbox mockup

praveesh
May 4th, 2010, 01:14 PM
I think the window indicators a wonderful idea .

magneze
May 4th, 2010, 01:40 PM
This is why the min/max/close moved to the left? :confused:

This is nuts. Maybe we need some examples for commonly used applications like Firefox, OpenOffice and Evolution.

I'm sure our feedback will be greatly received. :popcorn:

pelle.k
May 4th, 2010, 09:18 PM
I think some of you are missing the point here. They are using metacity, because it's the common denominator among all of the applications on the desktop. This way, they need only patch metacity, and not every single gtk/qt/wx application in existance to have an area that isn't necessarily a part of the application, *in* the application window.
It's a plugin system, so yes, sure, they can add functionality to the application in question as well. But i'm pretty sure this is not meant to remove buttons from the application in question just to put them in the window titlebar, but adding a sort of plugin system to some applications without patching/forking them too much. Perhaps, only light modifications (probably only some type of signaling system) are needed to the apps that will make significant use of this functionality, but that woulds also mean it should be backwards comaptible (if done right) with a normal (or vanilla gnome desktop if you will). So don't cry wolf just yet.

oedipuss
May 4th, 2010, 11:38 PM
I am not against this idea, but you have to prove it IS USEFUL.
Take gEdit. tell me how it could benefit with this idea, why using gEdit will be better using window indicators?

Just because you use one music/video player application that would benefit from volume control in there does not justify all the effort. What about the other 90% of the applications you use?
How applications like (gEdit,Terminal,Firefox,Transmission,Fspot,Brasero ,Pitivi,SimpleScan,OpenOffice) will benefit from this new invention?
Or are you only thinking about the volume control and online/offline (a feature that never used anywhere, did someone actually thought on investigating how many people use this feature before thinking of an window indicator that will be there for all people, even if used by 10-20%).

It's just that from what I saw, this idea does not improve something, it is just a new added feature along the existing ones, just to have something to talk about in the new version of application X or Y. I don't see how it can solve any problem... Convince me that this WILL in deed solve problems.


As far as indicators go, a keyboard layout indicator would make more sense on the title bar than on the panel, and perhaps some kind of keyboard status (INS, CAPS, etc) would also be useful for apps like gedit. Or some kind of root privileges indicator, with the ability to enable/disable superuser rights for a while, for that app. Something like the 'open as root' script in nautilus.
Boring stuff, but maybe that's the most useful after all.
Now that I think about it, those three are the only things I can think of that would be clearer in a windicator than on the panel or the statusbar.
Even volume controls that seem to be very logical, and the favorite example, would on second thought cause inconsistencies or duplication. How would system sounds be handled for apps that don't regularly play audio? As for the rest, I can think of only two cases where there might be audio but not a control : in the browser (rarely), and in nautilus previews.

Also, the online/offline indicator would only be somewhat useful if it allowed per application bandwidth limits and monitoring. Otherwise what's the point. It would be just a green thingy that would sometimes go red everywhere simultaneously.

What I mean is I think it _can_ be useful, just maybe not in the most spectacular ways.

D3mon_Spawn
May 4th, 2010, 11:41 PM
looks cool :KS

YuiDaoren
May 5th, 2010, 12:35 AM
I've made a mock-up of another Window Indicator idea:

(See attached)

randomizer101
May 5th, 2010, 01:44 AM
I don't understand how you can be on a "less is more" kick while simply adding more.

PryGuy
May 5th, 2010, 06:19 AM
Ubuntu with Mark as CEO
Most popular linux distribution
Available with hardware retailers like Dell


Ubuntu with Mark focusing on design
Buttons on the left
Windicators

Dear Mark, unlike your idol Steve Jobs, you are not a designer. Please go back to contributing to Ubuntu solely financially.Absolutely agree!!!

NCLI
May 5th, 2010, 09:23 AM
Great! Now let's apply the same at Firefox! so place all back/forward/reload/go in the title bar. There...just for good measure. Now every time you want to use those buttons you will remember how stupid it is. Why on earth the most used buttons on a browser should be as tiny as possible and in a place that does not help at all??

So by the rhythmbox image, WHY on earth would you need play/pause/previous/next in the titlebar???
The idea of the buttons is to be able to easily use them (making them 12pixels buttons and placing in the farthest corner will not help the situation... )

And yes, I also think that the idea of those icons in titlebar was not meant to make prev/next/play/pause window indicators after all.
See, we don't have the feature yet but there are people already starting to make mock ups with all those useless indicators. Imagine some months from now when every programmer will think it looks good to have those 8 window indicators for all those functions he thinks (not the user) are handy. Then we have a mess interface! Full of small buttons everywhere...

I am not against this idea, but you have to prove it IS USEFUL.
Take gEdit. tell me how it could benefit with this idea, why using gEdit will be better using window indicators?

Just because you use one music/video player application that would benefit from volume control in there does not justify all the effort. What about the other 90% of the applications you use?
How applications like (gEdit,Terminal,Firefox,Transmission,Fspot,Brasero ,Pitivi,SimpleScan,OpenOffice) will benefit from this new invention?
Or are you only thinking about the volume control and online/offline (a feature that never used anywhere, did someone actually thought on investigating how many people use this feature before thinking of an window indicator that will be there for all people, even if used by 10-20%).

It's just that from what I saw, this idea does not improve something, it is just a new added feature along the existing ones, just to have something to talk about in the new version of application X or Y. I don't see how it can solve any problem... Convince me that this WILL in deed solve problems.

Ok, first of all, I posted that mock-up because Marks sketches had left me disgusted with the design, and I feared that it would be extremely ugly. Those were the concerns the mock-up dispelled for me. I didn't mean it to represent what they will actually do, just what they should look like.

Shakz
May 5th, 2010, 07:43 PM
Doh...wrong thread!

okplayer02
May 5th, 2010, 08:01 PM
Ok fine i had a chance to look at mock up of this new concept being floated but i am curious what about upstream for other distributions. I mean come on now i use Arch Linux and their concept to KISS is very good, as in they do not alter what comes from GNOME for example. So how does this fit into overall scheme of Open Source. I had to have GNOME being forked due to things like this. One version GNOME for Ubuntu and another GNOME for the other distributions.

8Kuula
May 5th, 2010, 08:30 PM
I think, button like application volume control would be nice idea to put there. But I do not see point to have there something like bluetooth control, network control, session control or message control. Those are all general controls that do not need to be in every window. Not even to speak about any icons that pop in notification area.

Most working way (I think) would have GUI (like add to panel GUI for example) to enable users to put buttons to any order/place to their window that they like. Menu, minimize, close, etc. And just make "button" window indicators where would be controls for application level only. And use indicator applet general level controls.

seeker5528
May 6th, 2010, 08:12 PM
I think, button like application volume control would be nice idea to put there. But I do not see point to have there something like bluetooth control, network control, session control or message control. Those are all general controls that do not need to be in every window. Not even to speak about any icons that pop in notification area.

What part of.....

We’ll start with “window indicators”, or “windicators” for fun. Windicators are indicators displayed in the window title bar that behave just like the indicators in the panel: they have an icon which shows state, and clicking on the icon brings up a menu. Applications can create, update and remove window indicators using an API more or less like the AppIndicator framework first put to use in 10.04 LTS.
.... makes you think the windicator from one application will show up in the title bar of another application?

Or did you not follow the link in the first post and read the stuff first hand?

http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/333

Later, Seeker