Policies regarding promoting illegal activities.

[Bragador]

So to cut a long story short, I think that GNU/Linux needs companies like Linspire to provide temporary solutions and to encourage other software vendors to play ball. We can only do that if we gang up, and we gang up by sending money in the direction of those companies that help to solve our little missing "bits", so I would rather pay Linspire for codecs and DVD players than use legally dubious free versions.

If you pay for the codecs you are supporting the codecs. Instead I simply suggest you illegaly get them since you "have no choice" and give the money you would have used to open software foundations lile Xiph, Mozilla or for the new projects trying to create open flash softwares for example.

Or to Ubuntu :mrgreen:

[mstlyevil]

If you pay for the codecs you are supporting the codecs. Instead I simply suggest you illegaly get them since you "have no choice" and give the money you would have used to open software foundations lile Xiph, Mozilla or for the new projects trying to create open flash softwares for example.

Or to Ubuntu :mrgreen:

You are walking a fine line of breaking forum rules by promoting the illegal use of codecs and software.

[KiwiNZ]

Please do not promote illegal activity here.

Thanks

[xequence]

Please do not promote illegal activity here.

Thanks

I sware... You mod dudes just have that to a keybinding, dont ya?

And a list of other generic sayings.

[KiwiNZ]

I sware... You mod dudes just have that to a keybinding, dont ya?

And a list of other generic sayings.

We have to comply with the law.

[kassetra]

I sware... You mod dudes just have that to a keybinding, dont ya?

And a list of other generic sayings.

no, we have one that says, "oh CRAP! xequence is mouthing off again! OI!"
:p:p:p:p:p

[xequence]

We have to comply with the law.

As far as I know the law doesent say anywhere that you cant say anything good about piracy.

Though I do think it says you cant post links to any piracy stuff.

no, we have one that says, "oh CRAP! xequence is mouthing off again! OI!"
:p:p:p:p:p

And youve got that one set to the 0 on the numpad for rapid fire action ;)

I dont try to mouth off or anything. I just cant ever keep my opinion quiet.

It is just so... Impossible for me to sit here and see people saying things against my opinion, which would be perfectly fine, but I cant say my opinion back.

Ill try to put it in perspective... You dont like piracy I have assumed. What if me and many others said how awesome it was, while you wernt allowed to say that you were against it?

[KiwiNZ]

As far as I know the law doesent say anywhere that you cant say anything good about piracy.

Though I do think it says you cant post links to any piracy stuff.



And youve got that one set to the 0 on the numpad for rapid fire action ;)

I dont try to mouth off or anything. I just cant ever keep my opinion quiet.


Shhhhhhh

[jobezone]

You are walking a fine line of breaking forum rules by promoting the illegal use of codecs and software.
It's called Civil Disobedience: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience (http://www.transcendentalists.com/civil_disobedience.htm), by Henry David Thoreau.

[kassetra]

Ill try to put it in perspective... You dont like piracy I have assumed. What if me and many others said how awesome it was, while you wernt allowed to say that you were against it?

No, let me put this in perspective - and this is way off track so it ends here as well.

I wouldn't say anything if I knew that whatever I said could get the people that volunteer their time for my benefit into legal trouble.

Think of that the next time we ask you to stop.

(And if you don't think simply talking about it will earn us extra scrutiny and/or litigation - we're not going to provide you with the opportunity to learn that life lesson.)

[kassetra]

It's called Civil Disobedience: On the Duty of Civil Disobedience (http://www.transcendentalists.com/civil_disobedience.htm), by Henry David Thoreau.
Not on this forum, it's called a ban.
:p:p:p:p:p

[jobezone]

Ill try to put it in perspective... You dont like piracy I have assumed. What if me and many others said how awesome it was, while you wernt allowed to say that you were against it?
Good point, one which needs an answer.

P.S.-broke my promise...

[jobezone]

Not on this forum, it's called a ban.
:p:p:p:p:p
So promoting ilegal non-violent action as a form of protest and social change could make me be banned?

EDIT:just read what you posted previously:
"I wouldn't say anything if I knew that whatever I said could get the people that volunteer their time for my benefit into legal trouble.

Think of that the next time we ask you to stop.

(And if you don't think simply talking about it will earn us extra scrutiny and/or litigation - we're not going to provide you with the opportunity to learn that life lesson.)"

Pheww, the first, reasonable answer I've seen for not discussing certain issues in the forum, even if too paranoid.

[xequence]

I wouldn't say anything if I knew that whatever I said could get the people that volunteer their time for my benefit into legal trouble.

EDIT: I wrote a big long thing trying to understand your opinion, but whatever, I wont even bother.

Im gonna press that little red X on the tab of this page and not come back for awhile because you seem to misunderstand my intentions and think that I am trying to annoy you and stuff. I am in no way trying to do that.

[kassetra]

So promoting ilegal non-violent action as a form of protest and social change could make me be banned?

Point blank - this forum is not the place for you to promote illegal activities (by USA laws) for any reason. Our goal is technical support for Ubuntu. If you read the policies you agreed to before creating your account, you agreed not to promote illegal activities. I suggest you re-read the policies of this forum again.

If you would like to talk about laws, without promoting illegal activities, we have an area for that.

And this will now be split away from the original thread.

[KiwiNZ]

Point blank - this forum is not the place for you to promote illegal activities (by USA laws) for any reason. Our goal is technical support for Ubuntu. If you read the policies you agreed to before creating your account, you agreed not to promote illegal activities. I suggest you re-read the policies of this forum again.

If you would like to talk about laws, without promoting illegal activities, we have an area for that.

And this will now be split away from the original thread.

Absolutely.Well put Kass

[towsonu2003]

wouldn't it be easier for mods to just put a notification to such posts like:
"This is illegal in the US, you have been warned. We may need to notify US authorities."

Not everyone is from the US you know ;) this way, no mess no fuss.

[kassetra]

wouldn't it be easier for mods to just put a notification to such posts like:
"This is illegal in the US, you have been warned. We may need to notify US authorities."

Not everyone is from the US you know ;) this way, no mess no fuss.

If you look and see, we have been giving out warnings, precisely because we do understand, quite well, that not everyone is from the USA. Not all of the staff are, even.

This is about *after* people have been warned, in some cases, repeatedly.

[DrFunkenstein]

http://help.ubuntu.com/starterguide/C/ch03.html#sect-music-and-movies
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats

And in many cases it isn't even clear if _using_ (as in not-distributing) these codecs is illegal.

[Bragador]

Ubuntu has repositories that links to these "illegal" codecs. VLC media player for exemple.

I don't see how I did something wrong but I'll post my idea in another way instead. Maybe I was too blunt and I'm sorry for that.

[bonzodog]

just to add, It is perfectly legal to promote the use of the codecs here in the EU. It does seem the forum is basing itself on US law, which I DO NOT respect or even want a part of. Ubuntu is NOT a US distro. Us here in the EU merely advocate the US users using the distro. Therefore, I would suggest that it should not be illegal to advocate the codecs use in the forums, just tack a warning on the end that using the Codecs is technically illegal inside the US.

[KiwiNZ]

[quote=kassetra]Point blank - this forum is not the place for you to promote illegal activities (by USA laws) for any reason. Our goal is technical support for Ubuntu. If you read the policies you agreed to before creating your account, you agreed not to promote illegal activities. I suggest you re-read the policies of this forum again.

/quote]

Kassetra stated the above and that is the Forum policy . These Forums are based in the US and are subject to US law.

[DrFunkenstein]

[quote=kassetra]Point blank - this forum is not the place for you to promote illegal activities (by USA laws) for any reason. Our goal is technical support for Ubuntu. If you read the policies you agreed to before creating your account, you agreed not to promote illegal activities. I suggest you re-read the policies of this forum again.

/quote]

Kassetra stated the above and that is the Forum policy . These Forums are based in the US and are subject to US law.
So does this mean one isn't allowed to link to the official wiki anymore, as this could clearly be seen as advocating illegal activity?

[jobezone]

Yeah, like this:
Get Your Hot Codecs Here!$!! ----> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats

[Xian]

Yeah, like this:
Get Your Hot Codecs Here!$!! ----> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RestrictedFormats

I'll have to issue you a citation. Don't do that again. :)

[KiwiNZ]

Again when you joined this commuity you agreed to follow the policies and rules of this community.

We have restated that policy here and on several other occasions.

We expect you to honor your agreement.

[az]

Point blank - this forum is not the place for you to promote illegal activities (by USA laws) for any reason. Our goal is technical support for Ubuntu. If you read the policies you agreed to before creating your account, you agreed not to promote illegal activities. I suggest you re-read the policies of this forum again.

Distribution of the w32codecs are illegal in the US. Should the forums prohibit mentioning Automatix because of that?



And this will now be split away from the original thread.

This thread makes no sense unless you know what "splitting" a thread means and you realise that this is a split thread. Also, the title of the newly split thread (or it's first post) should mention that it is split. I am sure many users are reading this and scrathing their heads.

[DrFunkenstein]

Again when you joined this commuity you agreed to follow the policies and rules of this community.

We have restated that policy here and on several other occasions.

We expect you to honor your agreement.
Yes, I absolutely agree.
The problem is that I honestly don't know what this policy means, that's why I asked you guys to clarify it.
Unfortunately you still haven't done so, but only stated again that users have to follow the rules.

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, I absolutely agree.
The problem is that I honestly don't know what this policy means, that's why I asked you guys to clarify it.
Unfortunately you still haven't done so, but only stated again that users have to follow the rules.

Fair enough DrFunkenstein ,

Its late and I will try. OK it is OK to point folks to the Ubuntu repositories where say Codecs are available as there is legal notices there.The same also goes for Automatix as there is also warnings there. What we dont want is things like "Instead I simply suggest you illegaly get them" Promoting the piracy of software eg windows and the illegal copying of DVD's ,Music and download of illegal material is not permitted.

To put it simply if it is illegal activity take it elsewhere.

[az]

What we dont want is things like "Instead I simply suggest you illegaly get them" Promoting the piracy of software eg windows and the illegal copying of DVD's ,Music and download of illegal material is not permitted.
This is not providing a link to an illegal bittorrent download, it's stating an opinion about how to change the status quo. It's quite different.

"I suggest you illegaly download them" is the same thing as John Lennon's "imagine there's no heaven" Automatix is a much more concrete road to illegally distributing the codecs than this statement of opinion.


To put it simply if it is illegal activity take it elsewhere.

Sure, but how illegal is that statement? How can you discuss the legal distribution of these codecs without mentioning the current state of affairs (the codecs are not licenced for redistribution)

[jesse]

It appears that the forum mods who are making these arguments about what people are and are not allowed to say or for that matter what personal opinions Ubuntu forums is allowed to let people post "due to U.S. law" are not themselves located in the U.S. and possibly for this reason fail to understand U.S. law as much as they claim to as far as constitutionally protected free speech law is concerned.

Even if this forum is based in the U.S. and [B]use[B] of certain codecs without a certain software license is illegal, the U.S. constitution guarantees free speech, which means that if someone wants to express their constitutionally protected opinion in a public forum that people should break the law and use such codecs illegally, such speech, even if it amounts to "promotion of illegal activity," is protected by the U.S. constitution. This free speech protection afforded by the U.S. constitution may even make it illegal under U.S. law for forum moderators to censor such free speech.

Analogy: It's not illegal in the United States to campaign for the legalization of marijuana, or even to suggest in a public online forum that people violate U.S. law and smoke it illegally. Such speech is protected by U.S. law. What is illegal is actually smoking marijuana. It's not illegal to tell people to break the law, it's only illegal if they actually do it--and the people who do it may be breaking the law, but not the people who suggested they violate it. :mrgreen:

[ubuntu27]

It appears that the forum mods who are making these arguments about what people are and are not allowed to say or for that matter what personal opinions Ubuntu forums is allowed to let people post "due to U.S. law" are not themselves located in the U.S. and possibly for this reason fail to understand U.S. law as much as they claim to as far as constitutionally protected free speech law is concerned.

Even if this forum is based in the U.S. and [B]use[B] of certain codecs without a certain software license is illegal, the U.S. constitution guarantees free speech, which means that if someone wants to express their constitutionally protected opinion in a public forum that people should break the law and use such codecs illegally, such speech, even if it amounts to "promotion of illegal activity," is protected by the U.S. constitution. This free speech protection afforded by the U.S. constitution may even make it illegal under U.S. law for forum moderators to censor such free speech.

Analogy: It's not illegal in the United States to campaign for the legalization of marijuana, or even to suggest in a public online forum that people violate U.S. law and smoke it illegally. Such speech is protected by U.S. law. What is illegal is actually smoking marijuana. It's not illegal to tell people to break the law, it's only illegal if they actually do it--and the people who do it may be breaking the law, but not the people who suggested they violate it. :mrgreen:

That's good point.

[KiwiNZ]

jesse I remind you that you agree to abide by the rules of this forum when you establish an account here.

Also posting on this forum is a privilage and not a right.

[Ubuntu_User]

jesse I remind you that you agree to abide by the rules of this forum when you establish an account here.

He is questioning the rational behind your forum policies, he never said one shouldn't abide by them.
So how about at least once addressing the issues he and others have raised here, instead of repeating again and again that people have to abide by the rules (which, I can only repeat it, nobody doubted).


Also posting on this forum is a privilage and not a right.
While this is of course true to an extend, may I also remind you that these are the official ubuntu forums? So don't you think it's at least reasonable to expect that the forum admins don't place arbitrary restrictions on what people are allowed to say?

Now, I know that you don't think the restrictions are arbitrary, however, you repeatedly failed to give a convincing rational for the forum policy. Instead you constantly ignore all the arguments people make against this policy and instead tell them again and again that it is the forum policy. This is frustrating, to say the least.

[KiwiNZ]

Analogy: It's not illegal in the United States to campaign for the legalization of marijuana, or even to suggest in a public online forum that people violate U.S. law and smoke it illegally. Such speech is protected by U.S. law. What is illegal is actually smoking marijuana. It's not illegal to tell people to break the law, it's only illegal if they actually do it--and the people who do it may be breaking the law, but not the people who suggested they violate it. :mrgreen:

I would suggest that you research laws concerning inciting to commit crime.By inciting to commit a crime if said crime is committed those inciting said crime commit a crime.Also inciting lawlessness and disobedience may also be a crime .

[nocturn]

Ubuntu has repositories that links to these "illegal" codecs. VLC media player for exemple.


Yes. But Universe is not enabled by default, so when it is added, it is the user that did it (not Ubuntu) and it is the user that points and selects VLC.

I guess the actual repository is hosted in a country that does not have a DMCA like law.

I think that even talking about circumventing copyright protection is illegal in the US, so with the forums hosted there and many of the admins being US residents, it is not a risk worth to take.

[Ubuntu_User]

I would suggest that you research laws concerning inciting to commit crime.By inciting to commit a crime if said crime is committed those inciting said crime commit a crime.Also inciting lawlessness and disobedience may also be a crime .
May I suggest that you also do some research on this?
After all, as people have pointed out time and time again, calling for something like civil disobedience may well be covered under free speech laws, though it also may incite doing something illegal.

Further, as others have also already pointed out, your policy on this matter is far from consistent.
How can linking to instruction to install the codecs you presume to be illegal, or tell people to simply install w32codecs to get things working in a support thread be considered not promoting illegal activities by your standards, while simply stating that someone uses them does?

Add to this that people were banned for simply stating that they thought the codecs are not illegal (which might be an uniformed opinion, but certainly not a banable offense), that you even prevent people from stating that they think something shouldn't be illegal, which clearly is covered by free speech rights and also clearly does not promote illegal activity and you might get the idea where the problem lies.

To sum it up, simply refering people to the law, which is far from clear in this case and not addressing the problems and inconsistencies of your policies will not make this issue go away.

[KiwiNZ]

The Administration and staff of this forum has made its position regarding this matter very clear.