Linspire CEO Explains OOoFF

[Kevin Carmony]

There was a thread here (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=136860) about OOoFF. I figured since many had read this thread, it was only fair that I get a chance to respond in a top-level post.

OOoFF was a VERY O L D product that was created specifically for RETAIL distribution. Not sure why this old page was still floating around. Thanks for pointing it out so we could take it down and that page now just redirects to OO.org

The history, for those who care...

Retails channels are not interested in carrying "free" software. Best Buy, COMPusa, Fry's, Micro Center, Wal-Mart, etc. are BUSINESSES and they stay in business by SELLING software. There is no reason at all for any of these businesses to promote or support open source software such as Firefox or OpenOffice. Some of these retailers WANTED to promote and distribute Firefox and OpenOffice.org, but it needed to: 1) come in a box, 2) have support included, and 3) have a list price so they could sell it and make money (they have rent, utilities, payroll, etc. to pay, and that's how they stay in business).

Linspire responded to this demand, thinking having these products available in retail stores was a GOOD thing for open source. We put this package together and many retailers carried it and it even sold well. However, Linspire also got pounded on by "the community" for trying to "sell" open source software. (All profits went directly to open source projects.) So, even though OOoFF did quite well, and millions of retail shoppers could be exposed to Firefox and OpenOffice.org, we dropped the product. We never made any profit on it. By the time we paid for packaging and distribution costs, and with the low margins in retail software, this was just a project to help expose more people to Firefox and OpenOffice. Millions of people still purchase software through retail channels, and Microsoft loves having all that shelf space to themselves.

Score:
- Microsoft: 1
- Open Source Software on Retail Store Shelves: 0

The interesting discussion I think that you can have in this thread, is this: "Should open source software only be available as a free download, or should people be exposed to it via the normal, retail distribution channels?"

Now, me, personally? I'm a big fan of choice. For example, some people like to change the oil in their car, and find it ridiculous that anyone would pay to have that done. I, on the other hand, am GLAD that Jiffy Lube and others exist to take care of this tedious task for me. Even though Linspire won't get in that business again (who needs the aggravation? =), it's a shame someone else doesn't. I think it's a shame that when people go shopping at all the retail outlets for software they don't find OpenOffice, Firefox, GIMP, Nvu, etc. Many would be HAPPY to pay a few bucks to have a box, manual, support, and have it distributed via retailers. Choice, I like it.

Kevin Carmony
President & CEO, Linspire, Inc.

[xequence]

Dude, I am so posting what I said to your post on the other thread in this one =O

now just redirects to OO.org

Good move.

Retails channels are not interested in carrying "free" software. Best Buy, COMPusa, Fry's, Micro Center, Wal-Mart, etc. are BUSINESSES and they stay in business by SELLING software.

Good point, however I feel there are better ways to promote open source software.

However, Linspire also got pounded on by "the community" for trying to "sell" open source software.

I understand it a bit better now after your post, but I still cant say I aggree with it.

It might also put some people off. They hear about linux and open source software being so absolutly free, yet an open source product is/was selling in stores.

You were just lucky they named it Openoffice.org instead of something like Freeoffice.org ;) Cant say someone would like to buy something with the word free in the name.

[PatrickMay16]

Wow! Are you really the CEO of Linspire? Hello! I'm your greatest fan.

[Kevin Carmony]

Good point, however I feel there are better ways to promote open source software.

That's because you're probably more technical than most. I mean, you and I are hanging out in the Ubuntu forums! :) Keep in mind that 95% of the world doesn't know what open source software even is yet. Many people still buy their software in retail stores, and they don't see GIMP, Nvu, OO, etc. So, they end up still paying money, but usually paying a lot more and for closed-source, proprietary software. How is THAT good for OS? I would LOVE to see OpenOffice sitting on the retail store shelves for $19.95, right next to MS Office selling for hundreds more.

If open source software is to always mean = no support, no manuals, no boxes, no retail distribution, then it will always remain at a disadvantage. Many people WANT support, manuals, etc., and those things cost $$$$$.


It might also put some people off. They hear about linux and open source software being so absolutly free, yet an open source product is/was selling in stores.

And that's why we dropped it. I personally get worn out trying to defend Linspire for trying to take open source software to the masses with "the community" always complaining to us about doing that. In this case it was just easier to drop it.

Here's a question for everyone...

If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels? Having it there for free is obviously NOT an option, because there are hard costs and these retailers need margin.

Kevin

[FoxLogic]

Hey Kevin.
We used to use Linspire on our desktop computers at TechSonic Network. I'm sorry to say we did make a change to Ubuntu. Nothing personal though, we just found Ubuntu best for our needs.


EDIT:



If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels? Having it there for free is obviously NOT an option, because there are hard costs and these retailers need margin.

Kevin


I would applaud them.

[aysiu]

Kevin, thanks for taking the time out to post on the Ubuntu Forums.

I understand completely about real-life retailers like Best Buy needing something in a box that costs money. That makes perfect sense.

Why, however, would that mean the website about the product wouldn't make it plainly visible that the same product is available as a free download? The way the page used to look (before re-directing to OpenOffice) gave the impression (to someone who didn't know any better) that the price offered was a major discount and that was more or less the only way to obtain the software.

If your reasoning holds, the page would have said something like, "Firefox and OpenOffice are wonderful pieces of open source software. Download them freely at these websites. You can also obtain packaged versions of these programs at Best Buy and other retailers for $X."

No one will mourn the loss of OOoFF. I do believe your intentions were noble, even if your reasoning seems a little shady.

That said, I have the utmost respect for Linspire, and I think it and CNR get a little too much slamming in the Linux community.

[jrib]

I agree with aysiu. The page made no mention of the fact that the products could be obtained for free and that they were indeed free software. I felt like it needed to be explained to consumers, who you admit are probably not aware of the free software movement, that they were paying for the packaging, manuals, support, and convenience.

Having said that, I think it was a good idea to provide more exposure for the products and make people aware of alternatives by having them available in retail stores. It just needed a little more information imo.

Also, were the profits (or some part of them) to be distributed back in some way to the firefox and OOo projects, or free software in some way?

[Kevin Carmony]

Why, however, would that mean the website about the product wouldn't make it plainly visible that the same product is available as a free download?

Yes, the retailers would love that. "Come to our store, check out the product, then when you go to the web page to learn more, find the link for the free download."

Again, this comes down to the realities of retailing. Yea, it would be really cool if all the employees at these places worked for free, then the owners of the stores wouldn't have to be smart business people and could just dedicate all their energies to promoting open source software. That's just not their business.

That would be like going to the web page for Evian, and they have a link to step-by-step instructions how you can bottle your own water for free. :) Water IS free, but if you want it in a bottle, distributed to you, and supported if there is a problem, it will cost.

No one will mourn the loss of OOoFF. I do believe your intentions were noble, even if your reasoning seems a little shady.

No one? We still get calls from retailers wanting to sell it. THEY will miss it. But, I'll tell you who will NOT mourn its loss...Microsoft. They are very happy to have all that shelf space back and no one in those stores knowing they can get an entire office suite for a few bucks.

That said, I have the utmost respect for Linspire, and I think it and CNR get a little too much slamming in the Linux community.

Thank you.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Also, were the profits (or some part of them) to be distributed back in some way to the firefox and OOo projects, or free software in some way?

Yes, every penny. Thanks for reminding me to point that out. Every cent (and the margins were very low, so it wasn't much), went to supporting these and other open source projects.

http://linspire.com/opensource

Kevin

[DigitalDuality]

This is my take personally.

And not wholly on topic either. BUt OpenSource is in a catch22 situation in what you propose(d) as to having it on shelves. Opensource will thrive when it's pre-installed on people's computers upon purchase.

The MS lockin and various anti-trust special deals with hardware manufacteurs make this incredibly difficult. Seeing that Dell was including FF on some PCs was a big blow IMO.

This is the model that MS used to rise to stardom. And it worked. and it will still work.

I do agree though that people do want support. How to supply that or notify the masses about that would be a task and a half.

From working in a CompUSA for a while through college though, i can tell you flat out right now.. most customer's will not care about the product that cost considerably less that sits on the same shelf as MS Office. The drastic price difference makes them extremely skeptical. And on top of that if they find out they could get it for free.. there would be more than a OSS community backlash.

Part of this though is the MS monoculture problem. People don't even think in terms of word processor, spreadsheet, presentation. They think Word, Excel, Powerpoint.


That's just my .02 cents.

[FoxLogic]

Would you ever try this again, but do it a bit different?

I believe it to be a great idea for open source software to have some kind of Retail version.
As said before, money can go back to the developers and also the company putting in it in a box.

But if done any other way, I would frown apon it.

[poofyhairguy]

If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels?

Depends. If the $20 bucks went STRAIGHT to the development of Firefox (so basically it was more like a donation to development) then I would see it as a good thing. If it was done to make some money for someone at the Mozilla Foundation, then maybe its not so good.

If Linspire would have put somewhere with the OOoFF thing that "proceeds go to improve development of said software" then that would be a different story. As it is it seems that the money way going to a pretty box, a manual, and your pocket Kevin.

That is the crucial point where it becomes an iffy practice.

Honestly I don't see it as a big deal to get OSS software on the shelf at Best Buy. As an American I know that the expectations of the Microsoft world might demand such for higher success and visibility, but I honestly think that such a market should be left to its own devices. OSS should be making inroads in places where they are no Best Buys and Wal-Marts for many reasons:

1. Selling OSS software is fine and all, but since it is often sold cheaper than the alternative then that gets across the point to my fellow Americans that our favorite software is just a cheap knock-off of "the real deal." No offense to what you have done with Linspire (which is amazingly actually on computers in the store) but I have never seen it preinstalled on a high end machines. Its always on the cheapest machine in the store, getting across this point that "this Linux thing is just a cheap knock off of Windows." People are funny about associating value with cost.

2. I think if people pay for the software and later find out it was availible online for free, then you might turn some people away from OSS software as they will feel (rightfully) cheated.

3. My local market (and yours Kevin) is long since lost. What Microsoft sells is best, whatever else is just junk. It would be better to move on to markets where the "Microsoft Mindset" has not taken hold. I remember hearing during your Lug Radio segment that Linspire tries to make it easy for some guy in Mexico who has never had any computer experiance what so ever get on the internet. THAT sounds like a noble goal and made me begin to really understand where Linspire can really help the world. It would be better to leave markets that need to buy all their software at Best Buy alone- they are too far gone to be saved.

Thanks for your time to respond to us on the Ubuntu Forums though Kevin. For the record, you now have more posts here than our leader (Mark). You are always welcome back.

[BWF89]

Well I personaly don't see a problem with someone taking a piece of free (as in beer and freedom) software, putting it in a box, and selling it in the stores. If the owners of the software didn't want to take the chance of someone selling their software than the shouldn't have chosen the GPL or MPL.

Plus if your too lazy to do a Google search for Firefox and OpenOffice to see if you can get it cheaper somewhere else or even for free on their official websites than you deserve to pay the retail price for it.

[aysiu]

Again, this comes down to the realities of retailing. Yea, it would be really cool if all the employees at these places worked for free, then the owners of the stores wouldn't have to be smart business people and could just dedicate all their energies to promoting open source software. That's just not their business.

That would be like going to the web page for Evian, and they have a link to step-by-step instructions how you can bottle your own water for free. :) Water IS free, but if you want it in a bottle, distributed to you, and supported if there is a problem, it will cost. Maybe it's not a viable business model. You probably know more about business than I do, but I know Mepis does something like this.

You can go to the Mepis page and freely download Mepis. If you subscribe, you get special access to test builds, and you can also buy nicely packaged copies of Mepis. There's lot of reasons people would want to buy something they can download for free. Here are two main ones:

1. Some businesses just don't "trust" free stuff. If I handed my boss a copy of a CD I'd burnt and said, "Here, let's use OpenOffice instead of Microsoft Office," she'd take one look at the Sharpie scrawl on the Memorex CD and laugh. I'd have better luck selling her a nicely packaged OpenOffice--yes, even if it's available for free download over the internet. The packaged version probably also comes with support, which the free download doesn't.

2. Some people don't have internet connections or have really slow ones. 4 MB of download is pretty painful if you're on dial-up. And that's just for Firefox. OpenOffice is far larger and takes a long time to download even on broadband. If people can go to a store and buy something, they may prefer that convenience over getting something "free" that takes forever.

Concealing the freely available download is a little dishonest, I think. What's the point of promoting Firefox if you're hiding the fact that it's available for free download?

No offense to what you have done with Linspire (which is amazingly actually on computers in the store) but I have never seen it preinstalled on a high end machines. Its always on the cheapest machine in the store, getting across this point that "this Linux thing is just a cheap knock off of Windows." That's generally true (think Wal-Mart), but what about Koobox?

http://www.koobox.com

[Jucato]

The interesting discussion I think that you can have in this thread, is this: "Should open source software only be available as a free download, or should people be exposed to it via the normal, retail distribution channels?"

Of course open source software should not be only available as a free download. Imagine trying to download even a single CD Linux distro on dial-up. In fact, the GPL does not prohibit selling of GPL'ed software, as long as you give others the same rights to do the same (I'm not sure of the exact words, anyway).

But I guess the main problem why people don't like selling things like OO.o or Firefox, is that it gives the impression that you are actually selling/buying the software, which IMHO is not the case. What you are basically paying for is services: packaging, distribution, shipping, support. I guess that should be emphasized. Major enterprise Linux distros like Red Hat or Suse inform users of available free options. But the software itself is free. (Even MS doesn't sell the software. It only sells you the license to use the software)

Another problem that I see is misinforming/misleading people into thinking that what is being sold is a different software. Of course, OOoFf is, at least for those in the know, easy to interpret as OpenOffice.org and Firefox. But something like
comparesoft (http://www.comparesoft.com/products.html) comes up once in a while.

Packaging and selling OSS isn't a problem. It only becomes one when users are taken advantage of by some businesses, which is something that the FLOSS movement was trying to fight in the first place.

[xequence]

If open source software is to always mean = no support, no manuals, no boxes, no retail distribution, then it will always remain at a disadvantage. Many people WANT support, manuals, etc., and those things cost $$$$$.

I can understand how a complex operating system might need support, but I just dont see why everyone says stuff about support for a browser or an office suite.

I mean, my 12 year old brother used OpenOffice.org (just writer though) and MS Office (Just word though), both seamlessly.

I personally get worn out trying to defend Linspire for trying to take open source software to the masses with "the community" always complaining to us about doing that.

It seems like a hard job to do that.

If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels?

It just seems different where Mozilla is the company behind firefox. If Linspire made a standalone product that is open source but also sold it in a retail store I wouldent make a big deal about it.

Why, however, would that mean the website about the product wouldn't make it plainly visible that the same product is available as a free download? The way the page used to look (before re-directing to OpenOffice) gave the impression (to someone who didn't know any better) that the price offered was a major discount and that was more or less the only way to obtain the software.

If your reasoning holds, the page would have said something like, "Firefox and OpenOffice are wonderful pieces of open source software. Download them freely at these websites. You can also obtain packaged versions of these programs at Best Buy and other retailers for $X."


I aggree. It makes it look like firefox and openoffice were 49.95, with an X through that price, saying it is 29.95 now.

Hense my awesome parody of it, where 0$ is X-ed out.

No one will mourn the loss of OOoFF. I do believe your intentions were noble, even if your reasoning seems a little shady.

Yea, as far as I can tell it was the best of intentions, just sort of gone wrong.

Yes, every penny. Thanks for reminding me to point that out. Every cent (and the margins were very low, so it wasn't much), went to supporting these and other open source projects.

That does change quite alot.

Oh, and Kevin, I have two requests. Pull some strings up in linspire high command and change the "Launch" button to something else, please =)

My second request is to do what Duality suggested. Youre a company, you could pressure more hardware manufacturers (which would gain you more respect from the open source community) to include open source products in their windows installs, and possibley ultimatly a linux install. (And I dont mean the wal mart computers that everyone mentions that have 128MB RAM, hardly enough I feel to run KDE ;))

[DigitalDuality]

3. My local market (and yours Kevin) is long since lost. What Microsoft sells is best, whatever else is just junk. It would be better to move on to markets where the "Microsoft Mindset" has not taken hold. I remember hearing during your Lug Radio segment that Linspire tries to make it easy for some guy in Mexico who has never had any computer experiance what so ever get on the internet. THAT sounds like a noble goal and made me begin to really understand where Linspire can really help the world. It would be better to leave markets that need to buy all their software at Best Buy alone- they are too far gone to be saved.


I think this is an excellent, excellent point.

It's predicted MS is truly frightened about how to handle the African market right now. The One Lapto Per Child scenario is alot bigger than the media lets on i feel. This is putting linux in the hands of TONS of children who can't afford prices for 200 buck operating systems and 400 buck office suites. A good segment of latin american and and certain segments of south korea are also Linux as well. When Linux can grab a signifigant population anywhere, other than just "geeks", then it'll have some power to show the world what OSS can really do.

[aysiu]

I can understand how a complex operating system might need support, but I just dont see why everyone says stuff about support for a browser or an office suite.

I mean, my 12 year old brother used OpenOffice.org (just writer though) and MS Office (Just word though), both seamlessly. People want support for everything, especially businesses, but even some home users. I know plenty of people who manage to not be able to get basic functionality out of Microsoft Office (bullet points, formatting text, etc.) without some guidance. Too large a portion of the computing population is computer illiterate and would rather get "support" than actually learn how to use the programs they paid so much for.

[DigitalDuality]

People want support for everything, especially businesses, but even some home users.

The sad thing is why. Why does a company pay 30-80k a year (depending on skill level and tasks) per employee to support the systems in a network, and then pay for support? For instance. Lets say i build a FreeBSD webserver. My boss would say? "Well that doesn't have support?"

Well, why exactly is he paying me if he needs support?

Easy. Management needs someone to point a finger at so they don't have to take responsibility.

[Qrk]

I am appeased. I am not the target market for Linspire. Perhaps I do give Linspire too hard of a time.

In that case, it seems like Linspire's main market isn't really people who download and install their favorite OS like we do. It is rather the people looking for the cheap walmart PC with an OS, any OS, preinstalled. I don't understand this market, and I spoke too hastily.

For us here, the idea of paying for OO.o is absurd; but to someone looking at a Linspire laptop next to a Windows laptop on walmart's website; feature for feature, Linspire makes more sense.

[Zeroangel]

This actually made a lot of sense, and I applaud you for taking time to reply. $30.00 is more than a reasonable price to pay for such excellent software (if it is packaged right) and it is understandable for retailers to want to make money off of software (and your company to make even a small amount for time and effort spent).

In the past, Linux distributions sit themselves on shelves at stores like Staples, and you paid $40 to get a good OS with bundled in Tech Support. OO should have launched their own campaign as such to get their products on shelves or even bundled into retail machines with value-added features such as an auto-updater. If users had to pay for nice packaging, and added value features such as paper manuals, and an auto-updater then it would make a lot of sense as long as the free alternative remained.

NOTE: Edited to fix a few mistakes of logic.

[xequence]

This actually makes a lot of sense, and I applaud you for it. $20.00 is more than a reasonable price to pay for such excellent software and it is understandable for retailers to want to make money off of software (and your company to make even a small amount for time and effort spent)

Don't forget to include thunderbird!

It was 29.95, not 20$.

[poofyhairguy]

That's generally true (think Wal-Mart), but what about Koobox?


Honestly I have never seen a Koobox in a store, so I can't comment on what impression it gives.

[aysiu]

Honestly I have never seen a Koobox in a store, so I can't comment on what impression it gives. Oh, you're talking about actual physical stores, not online stores.

I've never seen Linspire or any Linux distro preloaded in an actual store.

[poofyhairguy]

I've never seen Linspire or any Linux distro preloaded in an actual store.

Its an amazing thing to see. I would buy Kevin a beer if I ever saw him face to face just for this. At the Frys and Microcenter in Houston there is an entire section of AMD Linspire machines.

[Kevin Carmony]

Would you ever try this again, but do it a bit different?

I believe it to be a great idea for open source software to have some kind of Retail version.
As said before, money can go back to the developers and also the company putting in it in a box.

But if done any other way, I would frown apon it.

Michael Robertson personally is still a big believer in the need for this with open source software, so he wants to do it, but no, I don't think Linspire ever would. It's not really our specialty anyway. We're trying to stay focused on our target market of pre-installing Linux on computers for the consumer market.

I think someone should do it. I'm sure OO and Moz will one day, in one way or another.

Kevin

[DigitalDuality]

Oh, you're talking about actual physical stores, not online stores.

I've never seen Linspire or any Linux distro preloaded in an actual store.
I've sold boxes of Red Hat, Suse, and FreeBSD before when i worked CompUSA. (it's been discontinued for quite a while now)

[Kevin Carmony]

If Linspire would have put somewhere with the OOoFF thing that "proceeds go to improve development of said software" then that would be a different story. As it is it seems that the money way going to a pretty box, a manual, and your pocket Kevin.

We did in fact donate all the proceeds to open source projects, and as I recall we mentioned that when we launched OOoFF.

As for "Kevin" pocketing some cash! Ha! That's a good one! The Linspire founders have invested MILLIONS of dollars into Linux and open source and we haven't taken out a dime. This is the most UNPROFITABLE business I've ever had the pleasure of working with. :) We do it because we believe in choice. I made my fortune with other successful businesses, long before I ever came to Linspire. Sounds like someone else I know. ;-)

Kevin

[xequence]

I still say you should go after Dell and HP and the bunch, trying to get them to include a choice of linux distros on their computers.

More profit for your company, more people using linux, more "Street cred" for linspire, the list goes on ;)

Sounds like someone else I know.

No... Are you saying.?.?.? No, you cant be...

[Kevin Carmony]

2. I think if people pay for the software and later find out it was availible online for free, then you might turn some people away from OSS software as they will feel (rightfully) cheated.

The majority of those who purchased OOoFF DID know it was available for free, but they wanted to get it on CD's, not have to download it, have a manual, and wanted the support that went along with it.

There are a tone of things that are "free," but we CHOOSE to pay for convenience. Have you ever paid to have someone cook a burger for you? Ever paid for bottled water? Ever paid someone to watch your children? Ever paid to have someone mow your law? Ever paid to have someone sew your clothes? Ever pay someone to cut your hair?

I'm glad we DON'T live in a world that believes if you pay, it's evil. I like eating out now and then. =)

Kevin

[aysiu]

Kevin, isn't there a page on the Linspire website that explains the ways Linspire gives back to the open source and Linux communities? I couldn't find it through a search, but I know I've seen it before.

[xequence]

Ever paid for bottled water?

Yes, because it totally pwns chlorine water from the tap.

And dude, your next post had better be telling me that you are planning to go after the big computer manufacturers =) Or atleast mention something about it. Because it is the only way I feel to bring linux to the mainstream.

Then when that happens to can be like that dude in the song "Lifes Been Good" and have a mansion and stuff ;O

[Kevin Carmony]

I am appeased. I am not the target market for Linspire. Perhaps I do give Linspire too hard of a time.

In that case, it seems like Linspire's main market isn't really people who download and install their favorite OS like we do. It is rather the people looking for the cheap walmart PC with an OS, any OS, preinstalled. I don't understand this market, and I spoke too hastily.

For us here, the idea of paying for OO.o is absurd; but to someone looking at a Linspire laptop next to a Windows laptop on walmart's website; feature for feature, Linspire makes more sense.

Well said.

And all I'll add is that MOST of the world is NOT like you. For every person that knows how to fix their own car, there are a hundred who just know how to drive one. Same is true with computers. For every techie who fiddles with computers, there are a hundred who just want to RUN their computer and have it work. Want to test this? Go to your local movie theater, and ask people, "Do you know what an iso file is?" "Do you know what a GIMP is?" and so on. :)

Kevin

[Kvark]

Yes, every penny. Thanks for reminding me to point that out. Every cent (and the margins were very low, so it wasn't much), went to supporting these and other open source projects.

http://linspire.com/opensource

Kevin
I think most of the people who are complaining assume that a couple bucks go to making the box and most of the end price goes straight into your pocket. Which makes it seem like a cheap way to make money on free software someone else made. There would probably be a whole lot less complaining if people where aware of that most of the price goes to costs and the profit goes back to the open source projects the software comes from.

The only negative point I see is that it would be good to mention that the software is available for free but I guess thats not how it works when you want to sell something. It's worse with CompareSoft that doesn't even mention on their site which programs they are actually selling rebranded and packaged.

It's great that you sell open source software. There is no apt-get on Windows so people won't find open source programs for Windows if it's not in the store. Even better would be if they found Linux, which also only happens if it's pre installed on computers in the store. Keep up the good work!

[Jucato]

Selling Linux distros, IMHO, is a good way of boosting the presence of Linux, especially in the market and business sectors, who seem to be allergic to the word "free". I just hope that not all Linux distros will become for sale one day. :D

Perhaps it's not a common marketing practice to inform someone that the product that they are buying can also be obtained for free. But I guess for people that are involved in the OSS field, that shouldn't be the case. If you (not you Kevin :D) are all for choice, you should give users/potential buyers the choice of how/where to obtain the product. But by shielding away information (such as OO.o and FF being free), you are, in a way, limiting their choice options. On the other hand, I haven't met anyone (yet) that will buy something that he or she knows nothing about. So most probably, those buyers of OOoFf do know that they can get it online as well.

[poofyhairguy]

As for "Kevin" pocketing some cash! Ha! That's a good one! The Linspire founders have invested MILLIONS of dollars into Linux and open source and we haven't taken out a dime. This is the most UNPROFITABLE business I've ever had the pleasure of working with. :)

I was pretty much joking. I know of your personal investments in the Linux community.

My point was one of "what it seems like," which is the biggest reason these products are still not on store shelves.

[Kevin Carmony]

Thanks for your time to respond to us on the Ubuntu Forums though Kevin. For the record, you now have more posts here than our leader (Mark). You are always welcome back.

Yes, I noticed that. =)

For the record, I have over four thousand posts on our forums. It's how I stay wired with our users. You guys have done a great job here on your forums to have such a good community, especially considering Mark doesn't spend more time here.

Kudo's to you and the U community, and thanks for making me feel at home when I come visit.

Kevin

[mstlyevil]

Oh, you're talking about actual physical stores, not online stores.

I've never seen Linspire or any Linux distro preloaded in an actual store.

Wal-Mart carries both Xandros and Linspire preloaded PC's in the budget PC section. I have actually seen them in the store myself.

[Kevin Carmony]

I was pretty much joking. I know of your personal investments in the Linux community.

My point was one of "what it seems like," which is the biggest reason these products are still not on store shelves.

Whew! For a minute there I thought there was some bank account with piles of cash waiting for me that I didn't know about! :-D

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin, isn't there a page on the Linspire website that explains the ways Linspire gives back to the open source and Linux communities? I couldn't find it through a search, but I know I've seen it before.

Yes...

http://linspire.com/opensource

We have invested millions in open source projects. (Linspire has spent almost $40MM to date on running this company and investing in the future of Linux. We're still not profitable, but hope to be one day, so that we can continue our work without just pouring in money from founders and investors. =) Everything we do is open source, with the exception of the CNR client. We give all our work and patches back. We love open source and think it's a brilliant way to see software developed. We just get misunderstood because we're trying to take this really cool thing called open source, that you and I get to appreciate every day, and share it with the other 95% of the world that's never heard of it, but would love it too. When we do that, we have to message and communicate in different ways, and sometimes that confuses the os community. That's why I try to make posts where I can in hopes of being a little better understood.

Kevin

[Stormy Eyes]

If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels? Having it there for free is obviously NOT an option, because there are hard costs and these retailers need margin.

Neither. I'd just buy a copy for the sake of having a printed manual, like I used to do with SuSE Linux when I was still a n00b.

[Kevin Carmony]

And dude, your next post had better be telling me that you are planning to go after the big computer manufacturers =) Or atleast mention something about it. Because it is the only way I feel to bring linux to the mainstream.

That has been our plan from day one of this company. Today we have over 350 OEM's pre-installing Linspire, including some of the bigger OEM's, including HP (http://www.tectonic.co.za/view.php?id=861) for example.

It's the main way we distribute Linspire and is the main thing we care about.

There are hundreds of retail locations you can walk into today and buy a Linspire computer, including Fry's, Micro Center, and many others (http://www.linspire.com/featured_partner/featured_partner.php?sent=1&country=1).

It takes time for the market to start adopting new things, especially after a 20-year monopoly, but we're doing all we can to get OEM's to consider desktop Linux.

Kevin

[KiwiNZ]

Profit from Linux is achievable and desirable. I know I have done it.

[Kevin Carmony]

This actually made a lot of sense, and I applaud you for taking time to reply. $30.00 is more than a reasonable price to pay for such excellent software (if it is packaged right) and it is understandable for retailers to want to make money off of software (and your company to make even a small amount for time and effort spent).

In the past, Linux distributions sit themselves on shelves at stores like Staples, and you paid $40 to get a good OS with bundled in Tech Support. OO should have launched their own campaign as such to get their products on shelves or even bundled into retail machines with value-added features such as an auto-updater. If users had to pay for nice packaging, and added value features such as paper manuals, and an auto-updater then it would make a lot of sense as long as the free alternative remained.

NOTE: Edited to fix a few mistakes of logic.

I think OO and Firefox should. Choice is good!

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

I think most of the people who are complaining assume that a couple bucks go to making the box and most of the end price goes straight into your pocket. Which makes it seem like a cheap way to make money on free software someone else made. There would probably be a whole lot less complaining if people where aware of that most of the price goes to costs and the profit goes back to the open source projects the software comes from.

The math, as I recall, went something like this:

Retail Price: $49.94 (which no one pays =)
Street Price: $30 (what most people would end up paying)
Price sold to Retailer at: $15 (so they made $15)
Price sold to Distributor at: $10 (so they made $5)
Cost to manufacture and ship: $6

"Profit" to Linspire: $4, which went to open source projects.

Linspire clearly "lost money" on this project, but we THOUGHT it would be good for open source. We like seeing alternatives and choice in front of the consumer.

Kevin

[FoxLogic]

Here in Nebraska, Wal*Mart doesn't sell any computers with Linux aleady on them. Most you can hope to find are HP and Compaq with the OEM version of Windows XP Home edition.


Kevin, maybe you should get in touch with some stores here in Nebraska. We don't have Linux being advertised in stores here at all. It would bring at least a few more users to Linux. I'd be happy just to see one computer with a Linux OS loaded on it. Just once...

Most poeple down here have Windows 98 Second Edition. When ever I go on call for computer repairs or just to clean them up, 87% of them are Windows 98.



EDIT: If you want a list of places around here or at least Kearney and Grand Island, I can name some off.

[Bragador]

There is just something I don't get. It's great to see that the money goes back to the project when you buy the software in stores but the fact is, if you use this money to pay your employees and the leaders of the enterprise, it still goes back in everybody's pockets.

We are just playing with words here.

I would simply ask for honesty and tell the buyers they are paying for the manual and support instead of the software. Also I would tell them they could get the software freely without the book and support at "insert location".

I don't mind that Linspire makes money (or tries to anyway) but the free alternative without support and books must be mentioned somewhere. I would even close my eyes on intelligent marketing sentences like "You can always find a free version of the software online but we believe your experience shall be better if you have the help you need when you need it, and a complete and professional manual by your side at all times" (or other variations).

It's a matter of not "screwing" people over their lack of knowledge, but instead making money out of "educating" them.

That was my humble opinion.

[ice60]

good luck, Kevin. i hope for your sake you become the biggest selling distro and make a real dent in the mainstream \\:D/

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin, maybe you should get in touch with some stores here in Nebraska. We don't have Linux being advertised in stores here at all. It would bring at least a few more users to Linux. I'd be happy just to see one computer with a Linux OS loaded on it. Just once...

If it's not there, it's not for lack of trying on our part. We have a full-time staff of great people out educating and talking about desktop Linux to all these retailers. It will just take time.

There are three "adoption curves" that we here at Linspire look at daily:

- The Technology
- The Channel
- The Demand

All three of these need to be in sync. Meaning, you can have great technology and great demand, but if the channel doesn't support it, the demand won't be met. Likewise, you can have huge demand and channel support, but if the technology isn't up to snuff, it will fail.

I'd give desktop Linux the following grades TODAY:

- The Technology B (it's getting pretty darn good, but there's room for improvement)

- The Channel C+ (it's getting better all the time, but it might still be a tad behind the technology)

- The Demand D (this one is where desktop Linux needs lots of work.)

The technology and channel are coming along nicely, and will in time, take care of themselves, but the DEMAND is very weak in the mass markets for Linux. That's not a slam on Linux, that's just the reality of where it is in the adoption cycle. The good news is, it IS heading in the right direction. But, end-user education and awareness takes a tremendous amount of time (and is VERY expensive if you want to try and buy it).

So, the moral...just add time, and things will get there.

Every month Linspire's sales through the channel increases. We see less and less "Linux techies" buying our product, and more and more non-techies buying it. That's a great trend for Linux, as it tries to find mainstream adoption.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

but the free alternative without support and books must be mentioned somewhere.

Fine, but just don't plan on retailers carrying it, that's all.

Keep in mind, Linspire is out of that business. So, you're discussing this with the wrong party. You need to go talk to Wal-Mart, Fry's, Best Buy, etc. about this. But, if you tell them you want to use their stores as a means of just educating people about free alternatives, they won't get very excited.

I agree, ideally it would be great if the box said, "This stuff is free, go get it at http://xyz.com, but if you want a CD, manual and support, buy this box." I just don't know if the retailers would go for it. Maybe someone should try it?

Kevin

[FoxLogic]

If it's not there, it's not for lack of trying on our part. We have a full-time staff of great people out educating and talking about desktop Linux to all these retailers. It will just take time.

There are three "adoption curves" that we here at Linspire look at daily:

- The Technology
- The Channel
- The Demand

All three of these need to be in sync. Meaning, you can have great technology and great demand, but if the channel doesn't support it, the demand won't be met. Likewise, you can have huge demand and channel support, but if the technology isn't up to snuff, it will fail.

I'd give desktop Linux the following grades TODAY:

- The Technology B (it's getting pretty darn good, but there's room for improvement)

- The Channel C+ (it's getting better all the time, but it might still be a tad behind the technology)

- The Demand D (this one is where desktop Linux needs lots of work.)

The technology and channel are coming along nicely, and will in time, take care of themselves, but the DEMAND is very weak in the mass markets for Linux. That's not a slam on Linux, that's just the reality of where it is in the adoption cycle. The good news is, it IS heading in the right direction. But, end-user education and awareness takes a tremendous amount of time (and is VERY expensive if you want to try and buy it).

So, the moral...just add time, and things will get there.

Every month Linspire's sales through the channel increases. We see less and less "Linux techies" buying our product, and more and more non-techies buying it. That's a great trend for Linux, as it tries to find mainstream adoption.

Kevin



Wait, can't you go into the hardware making business also? Think about it for a second. If your company can build and sell computers that are built for 100% compatibility with the hardware already on it. Think about how MAC did business with computers that were 100% compatible with their hardware/software.

Use this idea, to build the most Stable Linux desktops or at least put it on your todo list, so when you have the money, you can stomp with success.

[mstlyevil]

Fine, but just don't plan on retailers carrying it, that's all.

Keep in mind, Linspire is out of that business. So, you're discussing this with the wrong party. You need to go talk to Wal-Mart, Fry's, Best Buy, etc. about this. But, if you tell them you want to use their stores as a means of just educating people about free alternatives, they won't get very excited.

Kevin

The realities of living in a world wide Capitalist economy. I can see me going in to Wal-Marts headquarters and saying I want you to carry my free software but charge for the manuals, box and support with a disclaimer on the box that this product is available to download for free on the net. I am sure that will go over real well with Wal-Mart's marketing department.

[mstlyevil]

Wait, can't you go into the hardware making business also? Think about it for a second. If your company can build and sell computers that are built for 100% compatibility with the hardware already on it. Think about how MAC did business with computers that were 100% compatible with their hardware/software.

Use this idea, to build the most Stable Linux desktops or at least put it on your todo list, so when you have the money, you can stomp with success.

Then we can call them Lapple. :mrgreen:

[FoxLogic]

Then we can call them Lapple. :mrgreen:


Yeah that's kind of a side joke I did hope someone would pick up.

[Iandefor]

If it's not there, it's not for lack of trying on our part. We have a full-time staff of great people out educating and talking about desktop Linux to all these retailers. It will just take time.

There are three "adoption curves" that we here at Linspire look at daily:

- The Technology
- The Channel
- The Demand

All three of these need to be in sync. Meaning, you can have great technology and great demand, but if the channel doesn't support it, the demand won't be met. Likewise, you can have huge demand and channel support, but if the technology isn't up to snuff, it will fail.

I'd give desktop Linux the following grades TODAY:

- The Technology B (it's getting pretty darn good, but there's room for improvement)

- The Channel C+ (it's getting better all the time, but it might still be a tad behind the technology)

- The Demand D (this one is where desktop Linux needs lots of work.)

The technology and channel are coming along nicely, and will in time, take care of themselves, but the DEMAND is very weak in the mass markets for Linux. That's not a slam on Linux, that's just the reality of where it is in the adoption cycle. The good news is, it IS heading in the right direction. But, end-user education and awareness takes a tremendous amount of time (and is VERY expensive if you want to try and buy it).

So, the moral...just add time, and things will get there.

Every month Linspire's sales through the channel increases. We see less and less "Linux techies" buying our product, and more and more non-techies buying it. That's a great trend for Linux, as it tries to find mainstream adoption.

Kevin Sounds good, but how do you measure a consumer's technical expertise? Do you just include a survey in the box, or what?

[Bragador]

Fine, but just don't plan on retailers carrying it, that's all.

Keep in mind, Linspire is out of that business. So, you're discussing this with the wrong party. You need to go talk to Wal-Mart, Fry's, Best Buy, etc. about this. But, if you tell them you want to use their stores as a means of just educating people about free alternatives, they won't get very excited.

Kevin

That's where marketing comes in.

There's ALWAYS a way to sell your product. By barely mentioning the fact that there is another way to get the product online for free and by explaining to them that customers don't care if something is free or not as long as they get support, the retailers will listen. If your rep only talks about how "free and cool" linux is, you should simply fire him. I understand retailers listen to money and if you make sure they understand that, you are offering exactly what needs to be sold and everybody will be happy. And if the retailers ask too much questions on the free edition, I would simply state that only geeks can do that since the normal user would need to install the distro, troubleshoot it, try to find help online for things that don't wont work, etc. Thus they NEED the packaged version.

Anyway that's how I would do it but I might not have all the details and so I might not understand why retailers wont bow to your will.

In my mind it's simply a question of marketing.

[xequence]

That has been our plan from day one of this company. Today we have over 350 OEM's pre-installing Linspire, including some of the bigger OEM's, including HP for example.

Yay! I know it. The day you get atleast one company to put on all their windows computers an option to have linux and have the price of windows excluded is the day that ordinary people will really get into linux.

I mean, who can pass up the option to save money and get a super secure OS?

Initial suggestions were that the company would opt for the Ubuntu operating system, Owen-Jones said that after much experimentation they settled on the Linspire operating system because of the way it worked and because of its support offering.

Wow, I learned something new, I had always thought it was ubuntu they were gonna use. Good work negotiating that deal ;)

Wow. When I accually have someone that knows alot about linspire to tell me things I didnt know, I really have a new opinion on it... Maybe ill use that thingy for a free linspire (from the freespire thingy, way back when, I got it and put it in my shopping cart thingy) and get a free linspire and try it out, if I can still get it. While I cant pay for the click and run thingy, if apt still works it should be good.

I wonder what other things that I could change my opinion on o_O

[Jedeye]

Well this has been a great topic! Thanks for posting Kevin... this has really made me change my way of thought towards what I saw the other day. Keep up the great work at Linspire!

[blastus]

Hey Kevin, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I would love to see open source software like OpenOffice.org being sold in retail stores, nicely packaged with a manual and support information. Most people who use computers don't know much of anything about them and some don't know how to download software and still others don't trust downloading software from the Web. It is these people who make up the vast majority of the market and it is these people who may not have heard of the alternatives.

However, in order for it to work, sales staff have to be trained to identify consumer needs and sell OpenOffice.org where appropriate. But if the sales staff earn a commission, or get bonuses based on their sales, they may be biased to sell a $300 MS-Office suite over a $30 OpenOffice.org suite. Still, if a product like OpenOffice.org was packaged and sold in major retail outlets across the world, it could gain significant exposure and this could be a good thing. I would be cool with that as long as much proceeds as possible were pumped back into the open source community somehow.

[Stormy Eyes]

I am sure that will go over real well with Wal-Mart's marketing department.

Don't tell Wal-Mart, then. Just mention it in the manual. Never tell others things you don't need them to know.

[matthinckley]

On the topic of selling open source software in the retail channel... a few thoughts:

given that the consumer generally follows the 'you get what you pay for' thought process, a $30 office suite may not appeal that much sitting next to a $300 office suite..

so here's what you do.. I haven't worked in a retail channel that sold microsoft software so I don't know specifically what the retailer's margin is but I don't think it's very high.. but to be on the safe side i will say 50%... so if you can manufacture the pressed cd's with OO.o and FF on them plus a box and a set of manuals for lets say $20. I think Kevin said $6 but I'll try to err on the high side..

Take the retaililers profit on the MS product.. which we will say is 50% of $300 so $150.. then add 10% so we get $165. and make that the retailers profit..

So if we take our figures $20 for manufacture.. then we'll say $30 to distributor.. then $40 to retailer.. this is the scary part.. $40 plus $165 is $206 so lets round it down to $199.99. so we have $40 cost and $160 profit for the retailer

OK so now we have a pretty box of OpenOffice.org sitting on a shelf with FireFox on the CD and nice manuals for both.. for $199.99.. sounds really high right?

It does to me to, but here's the catch.. Each retailier recieves special training materials.. videos, pamphlets, sales-tips.. that explain to the sales-people why these products are better than their more expensive counterparts.. ie: community based support system(or if your company that was boxing these products wanted to have a telephone support system, that would be great, too), bugs dealt with in a much more timely manner, metadata is not hidden in your files, etc..

Now not only do we have a trained sales staff that knows how to present these products to any customer, but the retailer (and this is the kicker) makes 10 more dollars on every sale of OO.o than it does for MS Office.. and it costs over 60% less to stock it..

Tell me then that open source wouldn't make a dent..

Also I don't think personally that the margin on MS products is 50%.. I would guess more like 20%, which would drop the retail price of OO.o to 109.99 while still yeilding the retailer a higher profit than MS Office

I understand the communities feelings on charging outrageous prices for Open Source software, but If you look at the figures, almost 80% of the purchase price is going to the retailer, which I believe us as a community should just consider advertising expense.. And you could very well put on the box (in small print) that 20% of the purchase price is for packaging and documentation and the other 80% is advertising.. which would be the real estate that your product is taking up on the store shelves which (with the product being $100 dollars less than the competition while still netting the retailier a higher profit) will probably be a generous amount. Also I think most consumers would be more likely to buy a $200 alternative than a $30 or $50 alternative to a $300 product they know. Just because of that 'cheap knock-off' thought process.

Just my thoughts..

Matt

[Kevin Carmony]

Wow. When I accually have someone that knows alot about linspire to tell me things I didnt know, I really have a new opinion on it... Maybe ill use that thingy for a free linspire (from the freespire thingy, way back when, I got it and put it in my shopping cart thingy) and get a free linspire and try it out, if I can still get it. While I cant pay for the click and run thingy, if apt still works it should be good.

I'm glad my time here is helpful to you. I know there are a lot of misunderstandings about us out there. The funny thing is, Linspire does a FANTASTIC job of talking with our users. We have a very popular forum, and Linspire employees and management are always there posting away (as I said, I have over four thousand posts personally). So, you can image that with our users, they have very little confusion about who and what we are, and why we do what we do. But, outside of our users, there is often misunderstanding as to the meaning to our madness. So, I try when I can to clear things up outside of our own forums. (Again, thanks for being kind to my posts here. =)

Yes, if you took advantage of the free spire thing, and went through the process, your free access to Linspire should still be in your myLinspire account. Just go here (http://shop.linspire.com/user/mylindows_download_library.php) (it will ask you to login), and you can download the .iso. You get CNR for free for 15 days if you like, or yes, just use apt for free as well.

Kevin

[Taino]

Maybe its just me :mrgreen: but ive always had a vision of opensource being as available as possible to everyone so in my view if there was a cost associated with an application i always figured developers would go out of their way to keep the distribution and development costs down even on the packaging.

Example: although $20.00 bucks may be pretty low for an opensource app compared to a $99.00 commercial app, The "$20 bucks U.S." is still quite a bit of money in alot of parts of the world when you do a currency conversion to other monetary systems and could still end up being pricey in some parts of the world for the average joe out there.

I envisioned "shelf packaged" opensource software would be made with a critical eye towards distribution for all and affordability to everyone price wise, So i always thought software boxes and packaging for opensource apps should be made of recycled paper and carboard, printed in simple primary colors, no gloss, no glitter, no sparkly things, just opensource software functional and effective in a simple colorful box for $7.00 a pop. :mrgreen:

opensource should always be free in my book, but if there must be a price on it for packagings sake to put it in a commercial setting like a store front, i think it should still be a minimal one.

but thats just me... [-(

[Kevin Carmony]

Well this has been a great topic! Thanks for posting Kevin... this has really made me change my way of thought towards what I saw the other day. Keep up the great work at Linspire!

Thanks. Likewise, keep up the great work here with Ubuntu. You're my fav distro to recommend when someone is looking for a completely "free" distro that is 100% open source. (Again, with the exception of the CNR client, all of Linspire's code is open source. We do, however, have several non-open source 3rd party things, such as support for mp3, dvd, real audio, java, flash, quick time, windows media, ati drivers, nvidia drivers, etc.)

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Hey Kevin, I pretty much agree with everything you've said. I would love to see open source software like OpenOffice.org being sold in retail stores, nicely packaged with a manual and support information. Most people who use computers don't know much of anything about them and some don't know how to download software and still others don't trust downloading software from the Web. It is these people who make up the vast majority of the market and it is these people who may not have heard of the alternatives.

However, in order for it to work, sales staff have to be trained to identify consumer needs and sell OpenOffice.org where appropriate. But if the sales staff earn a commission, or get bonuses based on their sales, they may be biased to sell a $300 MS-Office suite over a $30 OpenOffice.org suite. Still, if a product like OpenOffice.org was packaged and sold in major retail outlets across the world, it could gain significant exposure and this could be a good thing. I would be cool with that as long as much proceeds as possible were pumped back into the open source community somehow.


Yes, I agree.

FYI...I sent an email to the folks at Comparesoft and told them to come read this thread. I think there have been a lot of great ideas shared here, and they could benefit from everyone's comments. For example, how to message things on their box, make sure contributions go back to the open source projects (I believe they do that already), and so on.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Don't tell Wal-Mart, then. Just mention it in the manual. Never tell others things you don't need them to know.

The problem with only mentioning it in the manual, is that by the time they are reading the manual, they have already purchased it. =)

I do think there probably is some happy balance that could be achieved, so that people know their options, but not to the point of turning off the retailers. Of course, emphasizing the value of having it come on CD, with a manual, and with support is a big part of that.

Mark obviously appreciates the importance of having things easily available on CD, and why he offers such an aggressive free CD program. The problem is, that program needs subsidies, and even Mark runs out of money at some point. It's nice when a FAIR free enterprise system can take over, and everyone wins. It's only when you get to a monopoly system that things break down.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

On the topic of selling open source software in the retail channel... a few thoughts:

given that the consumer generally follows the 'you get what you pay for' thought process, a $30 office suite may not appeal that much sitting next to a $300 office suite..

so here's what you do.. I haven't worked in a retail channel that sold microsoft software so I don't know specifically what the retailer's margin is but I don't think it's very high.. but to be on the safe side i will say 50%... so if you can manufacture the pressed cd's with OO.o and FF on them plus a box and a set of manuals for lets say $20. I think Kevin said $6 but I'll try to err on the high side..

Take the retaililers profit on the MS product.. which we will say is 50% of $300 so $150.. then add 10% so we get $165. and make that the retailers profit..

So if we take our figures $20 for manufacture.. then we'll say $30 to distributor.. then $40 to retailer.. this is the scary part.. $40 plus $165 is $206 so lets round it down to $199.99. so we have $40 cost and $160 profit for the retailer

OK so now we have a pretty box of OpenOffice.org sitting on a shelf with FireFox on the CD and nice manuals for both.. for $199.99.. sounds really high right?

It does to me to, but here's the catch.. Each retailier recieves special training materials.. videos, pamphlets, sales-tips.. that explain to the sales-people why these products are better than their more expensive counterparts.. ie: community based support system(or if your company that was boxing these products wanted to have a telephone support system, that would be great, too), bugs dealt with in a much more timely manner, metadata is not hidden in your files, etc..

Now not only do we have a trained sales staff that knows how to present these products to any customer, but the retailer (and this is the kicker) makes 10 more dollars on every sale of OO.o than it does for MS Office.. and it costs over 60% less to stock it..

Tell me then that open source wouldn't make a dent..

Also I don't think personally that the margin on MS products is 50%.. I would guess more like 20%, which would drop the retail price of OO.o to 109.99 while still yeilding the retailer a higher profit than MS Office

I understand the communities feelings on charging outrageous prices for Open Source software, but If you look at the figures, almost 80% of the purchase price is going to the retailer, which I believe us as a community should just consider advertising expense.. And you could very well put on the box (in small print) that 20% of the purchase price is for packaging and documentation and the other 80% is advertising.. which would be the real estate that your product is taking up on the store shelves which (with the product being $100 dollars less than the competition while still netting the retailier a higher profit) will probably be a generous amount. Also I think most consumers would be more likely to buy a $200 alternative than a $30 or $50 alternative to a $300 product they know. Just because of that 'cheap knock-off' thought process.

Just my thoughts..

Matt


I think it's important to remember that what we're talking about IS being done in a way with StarOffice. Sun takes OpenOffice (which no one should begrudge them for doing, because they have invested MILLIONS into OO, and it wouldn't be even remotely as good as it is without all the support Sun has given OO over the years), and they add a box, manual, some additional features, support, etc. and sell it for $100.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Maybe its just me :mrgreen: but ive always had a vision of opensource being as available as possible to everyone so in my view if there was a cost associated with an application i always figured developers would go out of their way to keep the distribution and development costs down even on the packaging.

Example: although $20.00 bucks may be pretty low for an opensource app compared to a $99.00 commercial app, The "$20 bucks U.S." is still quite a bit of money in alot of parts of the world when you do a currency conversion to other monetary systems and could still end up being pricey in some parts of the world for the average joe out there.

I envisioned "shelf packaged" opensource software would be made with a critical eye towards distribution for all and affordability to everyone price wise, So i always thought software boxes and packaging for opensource apps should be made of recycled paper and carboard, printed in simple primary colors, no gloss, no glitter, no sparkly things, just opensource software functional and effective in a simple colorful box for $7.00 a pop. :mrgreen:

opensource should always be free in my book, but if there must be a price on it for packagings sake to put it in a commercial setting like a store front, i think it should still be a minimal one.

but thats just me... [-(

The problem is, there needs to be enough margin in it for the retailer to bother with. How much shelf space do you think Fry's is going to give to a product they only make $.50 on? Not much.

Keep in mind, when you purchase a $100 software product at a retail store, about half of that is going in margin to the retailer, just to get him jazzed about selling it. The bigger the margin, the more jazzed they get, the more training they give their salespeople, the more advertising they do for it, etc.

Kevin

[DigitalDuality]

Kevin

I gotta pat you on the back man. Some people (myself included) lashed out some pretty harsh criticisms in that earlier thread. You just earned yourself 10,000 respect points in my book by coming here today. I have nothing to add debate wise. Just thought i'd leave on this note tonight.

[lotusleaf]

As others have said (and like I said at length here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=771985&postcount=13)) it's all about marketing.

If people can get Linux and software for Linux in stores, great. But I think the whole "free=crap" perception that a lot of people have needs to be turned on its head. This is happening slowly of course through offers like Mozilla Firefox and the like. This isn't going to happen as easily by selling people Linux in stores if they bring it home and can't open Windows file formats (and games) without reaching to a web site they may not have a link to for more details. Shake up the perception, introduce them to something free and better, and the playing field will change.

What we need is a corporation with the funds and the balls to market a totally free version of Linux the right way without having to sell it. (in my linked post above I speculate about why Google took such a negative hit in the news because of the rumor about Goobuntu, and about the power of name. (remember Lindows?) We need to change the view of what 'free' really can and does mean. More light needs to be shed on why closed file formats are bad for everyone. Please see my linked post within this post prior to replying to this. :)

The first item on the menu should be to loosen up the OEM grip:

"Congress: Clear the Air and Stop Preloads" (http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/50179/)

IMO: Going head to head, rank and file, tooth and nail via the retail shelf battle is just a quick way to meet the ghost of OS/2 for tea.

[drizek]

Thanks. Likewise, keep up the great work here with Ubuntu. You're my fav distro to recommend when someone is looking for a completely "free" distro that is 100% open source. (Again, with the exception of the CNR client, all of Linspire's code is open source. We do, however, have several non-open source 3rd party things, such as support for mp3, dvd, real audio, java, flash, quick time, windows media, ati drivers, nvidia drivers, etc.)

Kevin


somewhat off topic, but have you ever considered porting cnr to other distros?

[matthinckley]

I think it's important to remember that what we're talking about IS being done in a way with StarOffice. Sun takes OpenOffice (which no one should begrudge them for doing, because they have invested MILLIONS into OO, and it wouldn't be even remotely as good as it is without all the support Sun has given OO over the years), and they add a box, manual, some additional features, support, etc. and sell it for $100.

Kevin

Yes but my thought would be to set the price so the retailer would make more profit on our office app versus the closed-source app.. yes i realise this means a higher cost to the customer, but my thoughts are more on how the retailer would react to a lower cost higher profit solution that is still cheaper to the customer.. I think we would then see a larger open source software section that would start to dwarf the MS section.. but this could be just a dream of mine.. picturing a retail store with giant 20 foot Open Source Software section with a little 4 foot MS section at the end brings a smile to my face.. lol

Matt

[mstlyevil]

Kevin, would your company consider selling a multimedia pack for distros like Ubuntu to provide a legal way to obtain codecs and other proprietary multimedia software. One of my major concerns is the fact I may be breaking the law just to have multimedia support under Ubuntu and I have been waiting for some one to step up and offer these at a reasonable price. Since your company already has contracts with the makers of these codecs and software it would be in the perfect position to offer this to the end users of the free distros who share my concerns. It could also help your company's bottom line and open source in general. What are your thoughts on doing something like this and is it feasible?

BTW, I would be the first in line to buy it and promote it.

[mykill]

I should add one interesting tidbit which illustrates where retailers are at:.

On the original CompareSoft products we put on the checklist of features:

- Make unlimited copies!

We thought this would be a great feature to point out that really differentiates open source products from their proprietary competitors.

However, the retailers and distributors REFUSED to approve carry the product with that language. Since they are in the business to sell boxes of hardware and software, they don't want you telling customers that they can buy just one box and copy it as many times as you like. We were forced to change the box so now it says something about "no annoying activation codes" or something to that effect to try and convey that there's no barriers to copying without expliciting saying it.

I think it's important for people to understand the mindset of retailers. They won't carry $10 or $20 software. They want higher prices so they can make more profit to cover overhead. They will end the meeting if you show them sample product with language about "this software is available for free on the net".

-- MR

[matthinckley]

As others have said (and like I said at length here (http://www.ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=771985&postcount=13)) it's all about marketing.

If people can get Linux and software for Linux in stores, great. But I think the whole "free=crap" perception that a lot of people have needs to be turned on its head. This is happening slowly of course through offers like Mozilla Firefox and the like. This isn't going to happen as easily by selling people Linux in stores if they bring it home and can't open Windows file formats (and games) without reaching to a web site they may not have a link to for more details. Shake up the perception, introduce them to something free and better, and the playing field will change.

What we need is a corporation with the funds and the balls to market a totally free version of Linux the right way without having to sell it. (in my linked post above I speculate about why Google took such a negative hit in the news because of the rumor about Goobuntu, and about the power of name. (remember Lindows?) We need to change the view of what 'free' really can and does mean. More light needs to be shed on why closed file formats are bad for everyone. Please see my linked post within this post prior to replying to this. :)

The first item on the menu should be to loosen up the OEM grip:

"Congress: Clear the Air and Stop Preloads" (http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/50179/)

IMO: Going head to head, rank and file, tooth and nail via the retail shelf battle is just a quick way to meet the ghost of OS/2 for tea.

I understand what you are saying, but i don't see where someone would lose with a non-profit set up to put a product on the retail shelf that would beat the competition in profit to the retailer.. and even if we had a corp that had the funds and balls to market a totally free version, there are still the customers that want to 'go into a store to buy their software' and there is no way any retail store is going to put a free product on their shelf. And if they do (yes I know you can pick up aol discs at some retailers) the most it is going to get is a little 6 inch section nowhere near the top selling products. Also, if your product nets the retailer a higher profit you can bet that it will be more prominent in the retailers advertising, which means yet more advertising for Open Source.

[FoxLogic]

I'm glad my time here is helpful to you. I know there are a lot of misunderstandings about us out there. The funny thing is, Linspire does a FANTASTIC job of talking with our users. We have a very popular forum, and Linspire employees and management are always there posting away (as I said, I have over four thousand posts personally). So, you can image that with our users, they have very little confusion about who and what we are, and why we do what we do. But, outside of our users, there is often misunderstanding as to the meaning to our madness. So, I try when I can to clear things up outside of our own forums. (Again, thanks for being kind to my posts here. =)

Yes, if you took advantage of the free spire thing, and went through the process, your free access to Linspire should still be in your myLinspire account. Just go here (http://shop.linspire.com/user/mylindows_download_library.php) (it will ask you to login), and you can download the .iso. You get CNR for free for 15 days if you like, or yes, just use apt for free as well.

Kevin


You know, I've always wanted to try Linspire. Thanks for the link, I'm going to give it a shot. :D

[mstlyevil]

You know, I've always wanted to try Linspire. Thanks for the link, I'm going to give it a shot. :D

That was a limited time offer. If you did not sign up for an account at that time then the free copy is not available to you.

[TeeAhr1]

No... Are you saying.?.?.? No, you cant be...
That's right, Batman!

[vayu]

Thanks Keven for spending the time on this forum, and more importantly spending more time, energy (and money) than many of us who enjoy open source software can conceive of being able to contribute.

[jal]

A tiny bit off topic. I'm trying to contrast you Unix brilliants against the market Kevin's looking at. I applaud Kevin's attemp to introduce the Masses to alternatives to MicroSoft technology.

a use case:
I wanted to google something at a (very intellegent) aquaintance's home, went to the computator and was faced with an IE homed to a framed up MSN search engine page _without_ an address line.

I know a bit about computatoring machines and said "how do you use this thing?"
<expletive deleted> It was his 'default' install, what did simply come with the box.

He 'searched' for any interesting pages (by URL by crickey) and just DID NOT CARE about the setup. As far as he was concerned it was perfectly normal to portal through MSN.

I installed the FireFox, and that is what he uses now. *Not* because he cares. Just because it works.

It works, you see. Buy the box, take it home, hit 'install'. Stand back, close your eyes and think of England. Use it like it says on the box by pressing the mouse at various points and filling in the boxes. Really really simple. If it doesn't go, get yer money back. A commodity. A TV is a good example of the UI which will work.

People want that. They don't want to know about computers.

Now, anyone know why I need to install GTK+ before eclipse will work?

[Ubunted]

Ah, so that Dell I was helping a lady work with wasn't the only computer to come without an address bar. That was a serious "WTF?" moment - who takes away the address bar?

Anyways I was really on the fence about the Linspire issue until I read through this thread. Kevin, your efforts are admirable and I truly hope that Linspire can become a word that keeps Ballmer and Gates up at night, if it isn't already.

[Iandefor]

somewhat off topic, but have you ever considered porting cnr to other distros? Not that I'm qualified to speak for Mr. Carmony, but it would seem that would make matters excessively difficult for Linspire if they had to support a whole realm of users who weren't using Linspire's distro.
Imagine paying for people to support major distributions. They would have to ensure that software available through CNR was workable on other distributions, ie, other distributions met the dependencies for software, etc.

[bonzodog]

Ah, so that Dell I was helping a lady work with wasn't the only computer to come without an address bar. That was a serious "WTF?" moment - who takes away the address bar?


Welcome to the wonderful world of MSN explorer. It is actually a hacked version of IE, and of course you can still access IE through the add/remove programs dialog. MSN explorer is best thought of as a seperate version of IE, it still uses the IE engine, but has a hacked front end. However, IE itself is still on the machine hiding somewhere, with the links removed. When you stumble into a machine like that get them firefox!!

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin

I gotta pat you on the back man. Some people (myself included) lashed out some pretty harsh criticisms in that earlier thread. You just earned yourself 10,000 respect points in my book by coming here today. I have nothing to add debate wise. Just thought i'd leave on this note tonight.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I'm glad this topic came up. 1) It gave me a chance to address it and clear up any misunderstanding, and 2) Some good ideas have been shared here as to how open source software CAN find its way to retailers shelves. Linspire isn't doing that anymore, but Comparesoft and others are. They can learn from this discussion.

Thanks again.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

somewhat off topic, but have you ever considered porting cnr to other distros?

Absolutely. And guess which distro is top on our list? =)

I've talked to Mark about it. We both like the idea a great deal. We'd just make a way to apt-get the CNR client for free, then Ubuntu users could choose to simply use apt, OR, for those who want the one-click convenience of CNR, they could try CNR for free for 15 days, and if they like it, pay for the service ($20 per year).

You can use apt or CNR with Linspire today. I think that would be a great choice for Ubuntu users as well. Having more choices is always a good thing.

Yes, I don't want to get off topic here with more about this here in this thread, so I'll make a separate post and get input from you all about this idea there. So, save any comments, and look for that post.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Yes but my thought would be to set the price so the retailer would make more profit on our office app versus the closed-source app.. yes i realise this means a higher cost to the customer, but my thoughts are more on how the retailer would react to a lower cost higher profit solution that is still cheaper to the customer.. I think we would then see a larger open source software section that would start to dwarf the MS section.. but this could be just a dream of mine.. picturing a retail store with giant 20 foot Open Source Software section with a little 4 foot MS section at the end brings a smile to my face.. lol

Matt

Yes, you're exactly right. This is exactly what it would take for retailers to do something like that. It's not that they are greedy and want to make piles of cash, but they have REAL overhead costs (employees, rent, utilities, etc.). So yes, they are profit driven. The key is finding a healthy balance for all parties concerned.

The excellent point you bring up, however, is that because the hard costs to open source software are so low, you could still have the total dollar margin be better for the retailer, but the total cost to the consumer is still much less. That's some good thinking. And yes, if the retailer is making $50 from the open source product, and only $40 from the MS product, we know which one he'll want to push people to.

Some will say, "Yes, but that would rip off the customer, because he COULD have downloaded it for free." But, if he doesn't know about that option (many retail shoppers don't), then he ends up paying much more for closed-source solutions. That's the worst of all.

Kevin

[Kevin Carmony]

Kevin, would your company consider selling a multimedia pack for distros like Ubuntu to provide a legal way to obtain codecs and other proprietary multimedia software. One of my major concerns is the fact I may be breaking the law just to have multimedia support under Ubuntu and I have been waiting for some one to step up and offer these at a reasonable price. Since your company already has contracts with the makers of these codecs and software it would be in the perfect position to offer this to the end users of the free distros who share my concerns. It could also help your company's bottom line and open source in general. What are your thoughts on doing something like this and is it feasible?

BTW, I would be the first in line to buy it and promote it.

This is one of the big driving motivators behind our consideration of offering CNR to Ubuntu users (see my post a couple higher).

Again, more on this in another post.

Kevin

[Master Shake]

Fine, but just don't plan on retailers carrying it, that's all.

Keep in mind, Linspire is out of that business. So, you're discussing this with the wrong party. You need to go talk to Wal-Mart, Fry's, Best Buy, etc. about this. But, if you tell them you want to use their stores as a means of just educating people about free alternatives, they won't get very excited.

I agree, ideally it would be great if the box said, "This stuff is free, go get it at http://xyz.com, but if you want a CD, manual and support, buy this box." I just don't know if the retailers would go for it. Maybe someone should try it?

Kevin

Coming in on this part of the discussion late (and having only read about fivee pages of it)...


Why not try this for a model for Linspire or other future OSS projects?

Create a very in-depth book based upon the product your sellng (like a 300+ page book, like all the other computer books on the market), and in big, bold letters on the front of the book "FREE COPY OF (Linspire / OOo / Firefox or what have you) INSIDE!" ?

[Kevin Carmony]

That was a limited time offer. If you did not sign up for an account at that time then the free copy is not available to you.

Shoot me an email, and I'll be happy to give you a coupon code to get a free copy of Linspire. (I'd just post a coupon code here, but I don't want to be accused of using the Ubuntu forum as a way of pitching out Linspire.)

Kevin
kevin at linspire dot come

[Kevin Carmony]

Not that I'm qualified to speak for Mr. Carmony, but it would seem that would make matters excessively difficult for Linspire if they had to support a whole realm of users who weren't using Linspire's distro.
Imagine paying for people to support major distributions. They would have to ensure that software available through CNR was workable on other distributions, ie, other distributions met the dependencies for software, etc.

And that's why we wouldn't do it for "every" distro, but we COULD certainly do it for Ubuntu. 1) there are a lot of U users, so it could be worth the work, and 2) you're Debian based, so our whole CNR Warehousing system can wrap around U easily.

Again, more on this in another post.

Kevin

[Stormy Eyes]

And that's why we wouldn't do it for "every" distro, but we COULD certainly do it for Ubuntu. 1) there are a lot of U users, so it could be worth the work, and 2) you're Debian based, so our whole CNR Warehousing system can wrap around U easily.

I've used Ubuntu since the Warty Warthog release, and I've seen several people advised not to use Debian's Sid repository or the Marillat repository because of the possibility that packages from these repositories might break one's Ubuntu install. How would you go about ensuring that CNR does not have the same install-breaking potential?

[Bragador]

Well, I learned a lot from that discussion thanks to Mr. Carmony. I now understand more how retailers work.

I also love the idea of the book with "free open office offer inside", but it does make it sound like a cheap product though.

Normally I love to talk about money and making profits but for something like linux I'm kind of sensible. I'll still promote linux softwares by word of mouth unless I become a rep for a linux company lol

[Brunellus]

For those who are wondering what the original fuss was all about, archive.org's "wayback machine" has backed up the relevant OOOoFf page:

http://web.archive.org/web/20041115130653/http://www.oooff.com/openoffice.html

[nblythin]

Firstly, I'd like to say "Thank You" to Kevin for coming on here, and replying to so many posts on this topic. I can't think of too many people in a position like yours who would have done that. I must also say that I'm impressed by the fact that the CEO of Linspire hangs out on the forum of another distribution! With this industry having that type of a community - how can we not (eventually) win!

So from what I gather, the uproar was about the ethics of selling Open Source Software? Well (and please know that I mean no offence), I think perhaps Ubuntu users have become just a little bit spoiled... I can't think of any other free/open source project that has the luxury of being able to produce and freely distribute pressed CDs in professionally designed packaging like Ubuntu does. In fact, I still have a hard time believing it (despite having one sitting in front of me as I type this). That is a huge advantage over any other project when it comes to getting software into the hands of people.

Kevin and others, are right when they talk about both public perception and the need to "play ball" (so to speak) when dealing with a retail environment. I'm sure every one of us who are the resident "computer guy", whether at home or work, have had the experience of being asked to fix someones MS/Win computer. So, you try to preach the virtues of Linux and FOSS to them, but to no avail. Some people just can't / don't see any value in something that is free.

So one option is to have a tangible product (pressed CDs, in retail packaging). I do think this will help to change the perceptions of the general public, that what they are getting is real, professional and legitimate. How do you get them to see it, it MUST be in stores. And how do you get stores to carry it? Well, certainly NOT by printing "get this for free from..." all over the packaging.

My first impression of the OOoFf! page was the same as most of yours - disbelief and some degree of anger - that someone would have that much nerve! But then I thought about it, and rapidly changed my mind. That is because I remembered the negative responses I've had when trying to give away burned CDs of Linux distros and FOSS to my friends vs. the rather positive reactions I've received to passing around the packaged Ubuntu CDs.

And for those who are getting really upset by it, there are 2 factors you may not have considered:

1. Not everyone has the knowledge or capability to download & burn CDs of this software. We still have rural areas where the phone lines are so bad that dial-up connections regularly get dropped. Not everyone has CD burners or burning software. (not that it matters for smaller applications, just to install on their own systems - but as a general concept).

2. Even the most biggest preacher of free / open source, R.M.S. himself, thinks its perfectly acceptible to charge money for free software. If you aren't familiar with the GNU / FSF philosophy on the subject, perhaps you should read this:

Free Software Foundation (http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html)
Selling Free Software

http://www.gnu.org/graphics/philosophical-gnu-sm.jpg

Many people believe that the spirit of the GNU project is that you should not charge money for distributing copies of software, or that you should charge as little as possible -- just enough to cover the cost.

Actually we encourage people who redistribute free software to charge as much as they wish or can. If this seems surprising to you, please read on.

The word ``free'' has two legitimate general meanings; it can refer either to freedom or to price. When we speak of ``free software'', we're talking about freedom, not price. (Think of ``free speech'', not ``free beer''.) Specifically, it means that a user is free to run the program, change the program, and redistribute the program with or without changes.

Free programs are sometimes distributed gratis, and sometimes for a substantial price. Often the same program is available in both ways from different places. The program is free regardless of the price, because users have freedom in using it.

Non-free programs are usually sold for a high price, but sometimes a store will give you a copy at no charge. That doesn't make it free software, though. Price or no price, the program is non-free because users don't have freedom.

Since free software is not a matter of price, a low price isn't more free, or closer to free. So if you are redistributing copies of free software, you might as well charge a substantial fee and make some money. Redistributing free software is a good and legitimate activity; if you do it, you might as well make a profit from it.

Free software is a community project, and everyone who depends on it ought to look for ways to contribute to building the community. For a distributor, the way to do this is to give a part of the profit to the Free Software Foundation or some other free software development project. By funding development, you can advance the world of free software.

[TeeAhr1]

First, thank you, Kevin, for taking the time to stop in here and make your case. I know that I've learned a lot from this thread, and from the comments, I think many others have as well.

Now, for a moment of shocking personal honesty, I must admit that I have been quite vocal, here and elsewhere, in voicing my (typically negative) opinions about Linspire. This thread, and particularly your admirable handling of the questions raised, has really challenged my preconceptions. I was up late last night when I came across this, and even though I was exhausted, I had to stay up and finish the thread, because it was so interesting, and when I was done, I just sat back and thought, I'll be damned, he's right!

It's such a common refrain in FLOSS circles: Why can't we compete? When will we be able to compete? And then, when someone comes along who tries to compete, we **** all over them for "selling out." But you're right, we've got to get on the store shelves and fight, and I really hope Mozilla and/or Sun take the hint here.

One last thought: Don't take it personally, but I sincerely hope that in ten years, your job is obsolete. I'd like to see software out of the capitalist system altogether, and I think that's an achievable goal within the next ten years. But to get there, we need people like you and companies like yours to build the bridge. For instance, I'd be very curious to know what percentage of your customer base moves on to other distros within two or three years.

That's not a slam on your company or your product; quite the opposite. I think it's great that a distro like that exists, there's obviously a need in the market. And lord knows that there's enough MSFT customers in the world to make that a viable business model for a good, long time.

So here's hoping you put yourself out of business real soon, Kevin. But I wish you all the success on the way there :)

(EDIT: Edited for punctuation and spelling.)

[Ubunted]

Welcome to the wonderful world of MSN explorer. It is actually a hacked version of IE, and of course you can still access IE through the add/remove programs dialog. MSN explorer is best thought of as a seperate version of IE, it still uses the IE engine, but has a hacked front end. However, IE itself is still on the machine hiding somewhere, with the links removed. When you stumble into a machine like that get them firefox!!

Actually I even tried running "iexplore" in the Run box but it wouldn't even come up there. And she only had one search bar in the browser and it only searched the Dell support site.

Someone at Dell tried pretty damn hard to screw that computer up.

[xequence]

We have a very popular forum

I got bored once and did a thingy of how big the linux distros forums were and I think linspire was up close to the top.

and Linspire employees and management are always there posting away (as I said, I have over four thousand posts personally).

Thats wonderful, it makes it much more personal. It sort of turns it away from the "you are users that buy our products and make us money" of traditional companies to the "you are users, thanks for your support, any suggestions?"

You know, I've always wanted to try Linspire. Thanks for the link, I'm going to give it a shot.

That was a free offer awhile ago. Someone made a version of Linspire called Freespire, which was basically Linspire but without some things. I think the guys at linspire didnt mind it except the name sounded like it was a free version of linspire, so they stopped making freespire and linspire did a thingy where you could get a free version of Linspire. I jumped on the offer and have it waiting in myLinspire account thingy for if I ever want to try it.

Absolutely. And guess which distro is top on our list? =)

That is a cool idea, and its great you chose ubuntu for it to (possibly) happen to =O

Kevin, would your company consider selling a multimedia pack for distros like Ubuntu to provide a legal way to obtain codecs and other proprietary multimedia software.

That is a good idea. For the people who feel scared by the "grey area" of legality.

Coming in on this part of the discussion late (and having only read about fivee pages of it)...

Im happy I was the first one on this topic, I dont have to read 10 pages at once =D

[nickle]

1. Some businesses just don't "trust" free stuff.

Ah there the rub. i work for a very big company. My job is doing mathematical modelling. In our area there are some great free packages available which are simply better than any commercial equivalent. Take the statistical package R for example; it beats the pants of the commercial equivalents such as S-Plus. However try to get this past the IT dept is like the proverbial camel and needle eye. They will drown you out with validation paperwork that you simply give up. In many cases the IT guys have a point, but in our specialist area, they are holding up progress and some great "free" software will not get used to the degree it should.
So there is a point to selling good software with customer focused support. If this software is otherwise "free" I don't care. The companies that sell it will also have to provide the level of service many big companies expect.
I have supported and used open-source products for many years and many of them (such as the Ubuntu dist) are simply great. If people want to buy them (and get the support) as provided by companies such as Novell/(SuSE), let them.
At the end of the day, the more ways in which Linux distro's and apps are put on offer, the more they will be used, and that's what matters. I see no conflict between open-source and commercialisation, on the contrary, I see many great synergies...

[lotusleaf]

but i don't see where someone would lose with a non-profit set up to put a product on the retail shelf that would beat the competition in profit to the retailer..

As I said, if people can get Linux and open source software in stores, great. Open source products on the shelf to compete with commercial closed source offerings is great. However, when comparing the attempts in the past of other OS in the retail environment to face off against Windows, much of them, like OS/2, failed. Linux has been different in changing the playing field with the power of being free. Were a corporation with a powerful, well known name to market a free Linux distribution for free, the public perception of 'free' would change in a heartbeat, and, like the internet has changed the face of business with the world becoming ever smaller, poorer countries are now more easily able to compete with U.S. companies. As one book spells it out, The World Is Flat (by Thomas L. Friedman).

So long as there is a monopoly's product, which the majority of desktop users use, with closed file formats, things like DirectX, a grip on gaming, etc., the real need is to level the playing field with a 100% free alternative. The free aspect of Linux has forced closed source entities to bounce their ball a little in the open source court. Couple this free aspect with the backing of a well known corporation who won't back down to name change requests, dangling of millions of dollars, etc., and the public will quickly learn the power of free.

All of the people I've switched to Linux now know of the value of free Linux and open source, and while they saw Linux on the shelves at stores, it meant nothing to them. Change the landscape, level the playing field, and things will change. Until then, IMO, it will just be one company after another changing the names of their products or selling out to appease another corporation.

Many people are quick to quote famous and rare individuals who hold true to their philosophies, but so rarely do they emulate them. And so the gullet of greed and profit never goes hungry with so many willing followers.

[Brunellus]

I only went to Linux after buying it off a shelf--and, sorry Kevin, it wasn't Linspire, but SuSE 9.1 Personal, which was on sale that week. My computer was unbootable, I needed an operating system, I couldn't afford any of the competitors.

So in my own, narrow, case, the only reason I got involved was because it was available to me retail. Since that initial purchase, I've been connected to the internet (thanks to Linux!).

[dickohead]

Awesome, absolutely awesome! I've always been a fan of Linspires simplicity, but I did feel bad when you had to change your name from Lindows to Linspire, Lindows is very much what the idea was all about, which is great!

Selling OpenSource software is not evil, hell it's a great idea! None of these projects would exist without money, especially those like OpenOffice and Firefox, who are gaining users all the time.

I'm from Australia, so when I read that retails chains were selling OpenOffice and Firefox bundled for $30 US dollars (i do a quick head conversion) and come to about $45 - $50 Aussie dollars, which is still a (excuse me herE) SHITLOAD less expensive than Office is in our parts. The cheapest office we can buy is $188 (aussie dollars) which is the Student/Teacher version of the Standard edition, the standard full version is $669, which is one reason why we have such a high rate of piracy when compared to the rest of the world.

It's a very Aussie value to buy something, like it, and then say to Dave (a very aussie name) "Try this mate, it's great" - but doing that with Microsoft products labels you as a criminal, doing that with Open-Source applications labels you as hero.

I honestly think that selling OpenOffice and Firefox in Australia for less than $100 will generate a lot of interest, revenue for you and comfortable profit margins for the retailer.

While it's obvious that there is a lot of Anti-Windows/Microsoft sentiment out there, it's much worse here is Oz, because we're stuck with it! Apple is present, but not wide spread, and VERY expensive when compared to PC's, so Introducing an alternative that is not a new operating system bundled with a new PC would sell VERY well here.... especially if it was sold highlighting the following:

Free to pass around to your mates (mates not friends :))
Install on as many PC's in your house as you like
Works on any version of Windows
Works with MS-OFfice documents
Saves to PDF (huge bonus)
Online support
etc etc etc

I'd opt to become a re-seller the second it became available, my only problem with OpenOffice is that because we do not yet have a "standard" office document format (odt is lovely yes, but not widely used) people would NEED to have it save everything in Microsoft Format, especially students who need to submit in this format, and end-users creating documents for accountants, job interviews etc etc... is this issue addressed at all?

[adamb10]

Ah yes, Linspire. I tried installing it a few days ago but removed it(mouse wasn't working right, couldnt figure out how to update the os, could figure out why apt wasnt working). Besides those problems Linspire is a nice distro. It has a windows feel to it and bravo to you for trying to make the Linux Desktop succeed.

My advice though is to try what Apple is doing with the permissions system. You lose a layer of security making the default user root.

[madjo]

People want support for everything, especially businesses, but even some home users. I know plenty of people who manage to not be able to get basic functionality out of Microsoft Office (bullet points, formatting text, etc.) without some guidance. Too large a portion of the computing population is computer illiterate and would rather get "support" than actually learn how to use the programs they paid so much for.
Can you call Microsoft to ask about those topics in Word (bullets, formatting text)?
No, you can't, you have to scour the web to find it, so you pay large sums of money, but you can't get that level of support. So that point is moot.
It really is not wise to think that MS will support their products at such a low level, because they will not do that (they might have done so in the past, but not anymore).

Furthermore, businesses can get support from MS directly, but have to pay for that too... So in essence you pay twice, once for the product, and once for the support. So why exactly are people paying hundreds of bucks for MS products? It sure isn't support.
It is most likely the idea that paying money for software somehow guarantees the quality of it, at least that is the general idea that I can see around me, however stupid that idea is.


Everyone likes support, but it is not the main reason people pay through their nose to get their software, it is because they do not know that there are other solutions, that there are other ways of getting software, and they don't know that it can be retrieved for free.


Now the OOoFF idea is a nice one, but it could have been handled better. Perhaps by making people aware of the very nature of free software... and explicitly say that people only pay for the packaging, and that by paying for it, they directly support the authors of the software (although not by much, perhaps show how much?), and that support for it is free of charge (in most cases). (and then link to the support pages)

[bugmenot]

Hi Kevin

There is no easy way to say it, so i'll say it.

All this sounds to me like linspire(lindows) attempt to coup
Ubuntu(software/users/developers).

Linspire is increasingly becoming irrelevent, as ubuntu's ease of
use grows......
with the features which add to ease of use in Ubuntu being free,
users are begining to question the purchase of linspire over ubuntu.

as i see it, ubuntu has climbed over Fedora to get just below suse in ratings

So i propose the following actions:-
>start selling ubuntu in lieu of linspire
>find a new value add service, that you can ethically charge for
(in lieu of ease of use CNR service)
>IDEA: Start a QA firm, that helps other software firms port their apps
to run on Ubuntu, natively or under wine(ala codeweavers)
>IDEA: start a firm selling training videos, so that users can skip the howto's
Videos detailing how to install >17000 software packages from Debian repositories will be welcome.
>people have found niche's like montavista linux, find something else.

In conclusion what i am trying to say is that instead of a business,
hell bent on selling a commodity(hardware/software DVDs)
Sell Services, poeple need to be shown the way

Freaky IDEA
One fine day, a shopper buys complete commodity hardware from
say walmart, he/she gets a coupon to avail the personal services of
an Ubuntu nazi, you know the guy from LUG install fest,
the coupon has a charge $18 say.SO the geek configures everything for
this shopper, and teaches him a few tricks, shows him/her the way
...in short its the $18 coupon is a membership to a lug,
go run wild with the idea

probably enter into a contract with kinko's for printing manuals, and fedexing
it to the customer.

[Marquis_de_Carabas]

Many people have said it already in this thread, but it bears repeating: I have the utmost of respect for Kevin taking the time to come here and argue his point, and argue it very well I feel. I certainly have abandoned the negative impression I had of Linspire (the company and the distro).

Creative Commons is becoming more and more popular. Many bands release their music under a Creative Commons license - meaning you're free to download it, share it amongst your friends etc. - but most of them will also sell you a CD with fancy printed inlay card etc. if you wish. Cory Doctorow licences his novels and short stories under a Creative Commons license (check them out if you haven't already; Down & Out in the Magic Kingdom is well worth a read) and you can download them straight from his website. But you can also buy them from your local bookstore, or indeed from Amazon. And you know what? The Amazon page you can buy it from makes no mention of the fact that you can download it for free. Funny that...

[Iandefor]

Many people have said it already in this thread, but it bears repeating: I have the utmost of respect for Kevin taking the time to come here and argue his point, and argue it very well I feel. I certainly have abandoned the negative impression I had of Linspire (the company and the distro). As have I. He's impressed me.

Oh, and do you mind if I keep quoting you in my sig :-D?

[Marquis_de_Carabas]

Oh, and do you mind if I keep quoting you in my sig ?

Not at all :) I've been without a computer for several months and was pleasantly surprised upon returning to these forums to find another Neverwhere fan, and somebody else with my Einstein signature (I forget who they are now, but they're around here somewhere :))

[usfour]

Yes, every penny. Thanks for reminding me to point that out. Every cent (and the margins were very low, so it wasn't much), went to supporting these and other open source projects.

http://linspire.com/opensource

Kevin


Bravo.

:D

[Sushi]

I just wanted to say that I think that it's absolutely awesome to have Mr. Carmony on these forums, and actually discussing things with people! Mr. Carmony, my respect for you just went up for quite a few notches :). Quite often I see "upper-level" people hide behind secretaries and the like, instead of directly talking with the "regural folks". Bravo!

[forrestcupp]

If the Mozilla foundation decided to release Firefox through these retail channels, and charged $20 (to cover box, manual, distribution, and leave margin for retailers), would you crucify them? Or would you applaud them for seeing Firefox hitting the mainstream channels? Having it there for free is obviously NOT an option, because there are hard costs and these retailers need margin.

Kevin

I would applaud them, because they're the ones who came up with Firefox. But I don't know about someone who had nothing to do with Firefox taking it upon themselves to sell it to the masses. Maybe I'll take Gnome 2.14 and package it and sell it at Wal-mart.

[GeneralZod]

Maybe I'll take Gnome 2.14 and package it and sell it at Wal-mart.

Nobody's stopping you :)

[Brunellus]

this is a blast from the past. Is KC still reading these forums, or has he decided to keep his ubuntu contacts limited to sabdfl?

[Rhapsody]

Ah, Linspire. Of all the worlds we can imagine, I would like to think that there is one where I could've called you a friend.

On a less poetic note, I have frequently thought that if Microsoft were to suddenly implode tomorrow, it would likely fall to Linspire and company (Mandriva, Xandros, etc) to pick up the slack. As much as I love Ubuntu, I see it as more of an alternative to Windows than an outright replacement. Which is also why I love it actually. :)

[drizek]

MS cant just "implode". windows will still be there and people can continue to use windows xp. If ms does go bankrupt though, I think the ubuntu devs would kick it up a few notches and get ubuntu installed on every dell/hp on store shelves.

[G Morgan]

MS cant just "implode". windows will still be there and people can continue to use windows xp. If ms does go bankrupt though, I think the ubuntu devs would kick it up a few notches and get ubuntu installed on every dell/hp on store shelves.

Linspire doesn't have the financial resources Mark Shuttleworth could theorectically put behind Ubuntu nore does it have the mind share. If MS did implode you'd see a big step up I imagine. The battle for all those service contracts would be interesting.

[bruce89]

MS cant just "implode"
I think it was a hypothetical situation.

[Iandefor]

I think it was a hypothetical situation. As implied by "If" :-D.

[Artificial Intelligence]

Well there's no harm in dreaming :mrgreen:

[Iandefor]

Maybe I'll take Gnome 2.14 and package it and sell it at Wal-mart. And I'll make a fat profit off selling people the operating system that makes GNOME run ;).

[forrestcupp]

And I'll make a fat profit off selling people the operating system that makes GNOME run ;).

Do you want to become business partners?

[ilushkin]

Microsoft + Novell; now Microsoft + Linspire, next Ubuntu + Microsoft?

[newbie2]

this is a blast from the past. Is KC still reading these forums, or has he decided to keep his ubuntu contacts limited to sabdfl?

this is ALSO a blast from the past :
It's interesting to see the way Linspire has changed colour - no chameleon could do better. In November 2006, this is what the chief executive officer, Kevin Carmony had to say about Microsoft at the time of the Novell deal (and I quote):"I just finished watching a joint news conference with Microsoft and Novell, announcing a new set of agreements for technology, interoperability and intellectual property (IP).

"During the conference, Steve Ballmer conceded that Linux has in fact become a very important part of the technology landscape and embraced by Microsoft Windows customers worldwide. There was a lot of talk about interoperability, working together, mutual-admiration banter and back-slapping. Microsoft will have to excuse me if I don't take everything that was said at face value. Microsoft, a twice-convicted monopolist, has a history that is hard to forget."

http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36
As the late Kerry Packer, Australia's richest man, once said during the negotiations with MCC after he organised a rebel cricket series in Australia in the late 70s: "There is a little bit of the ***** in every one of us; gentlemen, name your price."

PS: It may be a good idea to read the pages linked above and save them somewhere safe. I have a feeling that at least one will disappear from the public internet soon.

http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12899/1090/1/1/
:roll:

[kevinlyfellow]

this is ALSO a blast from the past :


http://www.linspire.com/linspire_letter_archives.php?id=36


http://www.itwire.com.au/content/view/12899/1090/1/1/
:roll:

You know, there is only one thing about Linspire that makes me feel at least a little bit better about this: freespire is not covered. This means that Kevin Carmony was not implying Linux is infringing (at least not as strongly). I still don't like it though!

[Rhapsody]

This means that Kevin Carmony was not implying Linux is infringing (at least not as strongly).
If he doesn't think Linux is infringing, why make a deal in the first place? If there's no infringement in Linux, he'd know full well that other big Linux companies would be ready to get together and show up Microsoft for the liars that they are. But why do this? Why risk alienating those who would otherwise defend him? It's lunacy.

[kevinlyfellow]

If he doesn't think Linux is infringing, why make a deal in the first place? If there's no infringement in Linux, he'd know full well that other big Linux companies would be ready to get together and show up Microsoft for the liars that they are. But why do this? Why risk alienating those who would otherwise defend him? It's lunacy.

A business does not want to get involved in lawsuits, especially patent lawsuits. Most businesses do not care about whether MS is telling the truth or not, they just don't want to take a risk. We all know its a load, but people who do not have exposure to linux do not know this. I'd prefer that companies selling linux would indemnify its users, not MS.

Besides, when I started using linux, Lindows was not exactly held in high esteem. They seemed to have won over more people, but I seriously think that their primary users are not typical linux users.

[bapoumba]

This thread had been dead for a year.Please continue here:
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=473363
I'm closing this one, sorry.