Dell Windows Tax: Advice needed

[ethanay]

Just ordered a Dell Inspiron 1440 for one of my parents. Opened it up, did not agree to the EULA, formatted the hard drive, and installed Ubuntu 9.10. Works Wonderfully!

Now, it came preinstalled with Windows Vista. Contacted Dell through both e-mail and phone. Tried to get a refund through Dell US for the unused license and unopened software. They kept saying that their return policy was that

1. They do not charge for the Windows -- it is "subsidized"
2. It is preinstalled and they do not offer any refund on preinstalled software
3. It is part of a bundled package -- I must return the entire computer if I am to return anything
4. I need to check with Microsoft instead. However, Microsoft's policies clearly state that I need to contact the OEM!

Any advice? Should I just sell the unused software on E-bay?

I know that the legality of what Dell/Microsoft are doing is questionable, and definitely not very fair. And certainly very frustrating. But we just want to get rid of our unused software and some of the Microsoft Tax that came with it. $450 is a lot to us folks, so even $25 is helpful.

[EvilPhoenix]

Just ordered a Dell Inspiron 1440 for one of my parents. Opened it up, did not agree to the EULA, formatted the hard drive, and installed Ubuntu 9.10. Works Wonderfully!

Now, it came preinstalled with Windows Vista. Contacted Dell through both e-mail and phone. Tried to get a refund through Dell US for the unused license and unopened software. They kept saying that their return policy was that

1. They do not charge for the Windows -- it is "subsidized"
2. It is preinstalled and they do not offer any refund on preinstalled software
3. It is part of a bundled package -- I must return the entire computer if I am to return anything
4. I need to check with Microsoft instead. However, Microsoft's policies clearly state that I need to contact the OEM!

Any advice? Should I just sell the unused software on E-bay?

I know that the legality of what Dell/Microsoft are doing is questionable, and definitely not very fair. And certainly very frustrating. But we just want to get rid of our unused software and some of the Microsoft Tax that came with it. $450 is a lot to us folks, so even $25 is helpful.

Just keep the Windows software, just in case. Besides, the Windows OS was already installed, so the reg key has already been used, not very useful if you sell the discs and stuff...

[benj1]

just point out to them the dell cases here, where they have already refunded people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund#License_refund_cases

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/6144782.stm

failing that, threaten to take them to court for breach of contract / applicable law in your area.

i would be very surprised if they don't give in by then.

the trick is just to let them know youre serious

EDIT: do this by letter, they tend to be taken more seriously.

[mikewhatever]

Just keep the Windows software, just in case. Besides, the Windows OS was already installed, so the reg key has already been used, not very useful if you sell the discs and stuff...

Just in case what? Flies gather on the porch and you need to scare them away?;)
You can get a refund, but be prepared for a bit of fighting.
Read how others did it.
http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7671300#post7671300

And here is something really Dell specific:
http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381

[ethanay]

hey all,

thanks for the resources and suggestions -- will follow through and post the progress (or lack thereof...) :p

FYI, i posted a link to this thread on the Windows EULA thread:

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=7671300

[ethanay]

We are currently going around in circles w/Dell Support...their latest response:
I do undertand your concern, however, we will not be able to process refund for an unused pre-installed software. You may contact manufacturer of the software for any further details and assistance on this matter.

Sounds familiar...here is another recent refund:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/10/19/windows_dell_linux_refund/

This is nearly identical to our case (Vista, but no Win7 upgrade)

[benj1]

try a different address, failing that send a letter direct to head office, citing the emails you have already sent

if all else fails threaten to request your money back for the entire pc, due to breach of contract, or take them to court.

another interesting article here.
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

[snowpine]

Dell sells computers with Ubuntu preinstalled (as do many other vendors, like System76).

Yet, you chose to buy a different computer, knowing full well it came with Windows.

I would not give you a refund if I were Dell.

[mikewhatever]

Dell sells computers with Ubuntu preinstalled (as do many other vendors, like System76).

Yet, you chose to buy a different computer, knowing full well it came with Windows.

I would not give you a refund if I were Dell.

I find it odd that this very argument comes up in every Windows refund thread. I think it's perfectly understandable and acceptable that a user should be able to shop around, find a good deal, and make it even better by getting a refund for the unneeded Windows OS. Why don't some understand such very simple basics?

[snowpine]

I find it odd that this very argument comes up in every Windows refund thread. I think it's perfectly understandable and acceptable that a user should be able to shop around, find a good deal, and make it even better by getting a refund for the unneeded Windows OS. Why don't some understand such very simple basics?

I don't like bacon; can I get my money back on this BLT I ordered?
I only drive during the daytime; why should I have to pay the "headlight tax"?
I bought Hannah Montana shoelaces for my Chucks; I demand Converse send me $1 for the factory-installed shoelaces I don't need!

Don't buy something you don't want and then complain about it. Buy what you want in the first place and be happy. Life is short. :)

(edit) Obviously it is a different story if you feel Dell scammed you or somehow misrepresented the fact that Windows came pre-installed. (For example, I would send a dish back to the kitchen if it had secret bacon that was not listed on the menu.) In my experience with Dell, their advertising is very clear that most of their computers have Windows pre-installed.

[ugm6hr]

Good luck trying to get a refund, but I think you'll find it is wasted time.

Additionally, you can't sell OEM software - the license is only valid on your pre-bought hardware.

Unfortunately, Dell's position is that they bundled everything together; they are unable to separate costs for individual components. Microsoft's EULA explains their "refund" policy; Dell are not bound by their terms.

There are a multitude of similar threads here with stories and anecdotes of successful refunds. However, they are an extreme minority.

[benj1]

(edit) Obviously it is a different story if you feel Dell scammed you or somehow misrepresented the fact that Windows came pre-installed. (For example, I would send a dish back to the kitchen if it had secret bacon that was not listed on the menu.) In my experience with Dell, their advertising is very clear that most of their computers have Windows pre-installed.

to be fair they say it comes with windows, that would indicate you would actually own that copy of windows, when you read the EULA you realise you don't own the software, if you don't wish to accept that you have the right to get a refund.
if your blt came with a license agreement saying that the bacon remains the property of farmer hog, and that if you eat it, he will own your soul, but you don't have to accept and you can request your money back, you would?

plus not all dell pcs are available with ubuntu anyway.

[Maheriano]

Did you read the EULA? It specifies it's for copies bought over the counter only, not preinstalled versions of Windows. Your case doesn't apply to the refund portion.

[blur xc]

Dell sells computers with Ubuntu preinstalled (as do many other vendors, like System76).

Yet, you chose to buy a different computer, knowing full well it came with Windows.

I would not give you a refund if I were Dell.

Every time I hear this argument it just keeps sounding stupider and stupider (and yes, I said stupider because it's stupider than saying more stupid).

Go to dell's site, and search for all laptops that offer Ubuntu as an alternate os. There's like 4* of them. Why settle, when the computer w/ the hardware that I might want, is only offered w/ Windows OS?

Microsoft's EULA explicitly states you are entitled to a refund if you do not agree to the EULA and install something else. The OE should give you a refund. The only issue might be providing proof that the EULA was never agreed to, and windows was never run. IMO, a trip to a dell dealer, like Best Buy, and a quick examination by their geek squad (or something similar) should suffice.

BM

[mikewhatever]

I don't like bacon; can I get my money back on this BLT I ordered?
I only drive during the daytime; why should I have to pay the "headlight tax"?
I bought Hannah Montana shoelaces for my Chucks; I demand Converse send me $1 for the factory-installed shoelaces I don't need!

Well, some of the examples are rather ridiculous, but the answer is 'Yes' to all, in case you've agreed to the license agreement, which specifically outlines that you are entitled to a refund, should you wish to get one.

Don't buy something you don't want and then complain about it. Buy what you want in the first place and be happy. Life is short. :)

I take it for granted that the OP had bought a computer he/she wanted, because of the price/model/hardware, and now wants to exercise his/her right to get a refund for Windows, as outlined in the EULA. I also take it for granted, that had there been the very same model available for the very same price - Windows discounted, the OP would have picked the latter.


(edit) Obviously it is a different story if you feel Dell scammed you or somehow misrepresented the fact that Windows came pre-installed. (For example, I would send a dish back to the kitchen if it had secret bacon that was not listed on the menu.) In my experience with Dell, their advertising is very clear that most of their computers have Windows pre-installed.

You are missing the point entirely here. No one had ever said the OP is entitled to a refund because Dell had concealed that the computer comes with Windows. The only relevant argument is the clause in the EULA, that states you may get a refund, period.

[ethanay]

This thread is getting off-topic. That said:

The only reason Microsoft still has a majority market share is because they successfully pursue and maintain tacit agreements with OEMs that prevents them from offering more options. It's not "just Dell" -- it is MOST manufacturers, and especially most every manufacturer that offers an affordable laptop with decent hardware. They could be more affordable by offering free software.

I would happily click "no OS" if there was an option. But there isn't. I suspect Dell's relationship with Microsoft is in jeopardy if they offer such an option. Dell has a somewhat hidden page that offers a few Ubuntu options and often for more money than similarly-configured Windows options. Even on the Ubuntu page, Dell tries to redirect users back to Windows with warnings.

It is certainly unethical. It inhibits fair market competition. Customers get lower quality products as a result.

A little reminder:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/1

The original purpose of Ubuntu is a direct challenge Microsoft. If Ubuntu users agree, one way they can help is to challenge the vice-grip hardware monopoly of borderline legality that Microsoft maintains. There are several ways of doing this -- pursuing the right to a refund for unused OS as per the EULA is one.

Ubuntu users don't have to agree to support Ubuntu's purpose at all -- in fact, we are all free to disagree and support Microsoft (or any other corporation with questionable ethics) if we please. At the end of the day, just remember that Microsoft doesn't offer such freedom willingly -- only by threat of the law, which "impedes" Microsoft's cancerous "business model" of domination and control.

In contrast, various Linux distributions and other FOSS compete and cooperate at the same time. I don't want Linux domination, but I would be much more comfortable with it than with closed-source domination, and I think it would be safer and more beneficial in general.

Look at what FOSS has been able to achieve with only what, 1% of the desktop market? If FOSS could gain the resources of 10-25% of the desktop market, it would wipe the floor with Windows and Microsoft would have to step up its game or perish. I would not miss Microsoft at all.

To be fair, I am not anti-Microsoft -- the entire OS market and its relationship to hardware is unhealthy, and Microsoft is simply a symptom as much as it is part of the disease. Other corporations in other sectors of our economy use Microsoft's same tactics. The US economy collapsed because our financial sector operated like Microsoft does -- both individual corporations and the sector as a whole. It represents a sick, sociopathic modus operandi.

Ubuntu/FOSS is not perfect. Nothing is. However, it represents a much healthier alternative to the dominant modus operandi. I don't think everything should be FOSS, but many more things could be and closed-source needs to play nice.
sudo topic restart :P

[snowpine]

If you really want to "stick it to Microsoft," buy a computer with Linux. That is just my opinion. :) Good luck chasing the refund, and please post back if you are successful!

[blur xc]

If you really want to "stick it to Microsoft," buy a computer with Linux. That is just my opinion. :) Good luck chasing the refund, and please post back if you are successful!

I challenge you to make a complete list of ALL computers manufactured by popular, and maybe even slightly less popular OEM's that come w/ some decent Linux distro preinstalled.

It' won't be a long list.

What do you do if you don't like any of them, but there's one that you absolutely love, except for the fact that it comes w/ Windows only? Get the Linux computer out of spite?

BM

[blur xc]

http://www.linux.com/archive/articles/59381

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_refund

BM

[aysiu]

The list has already been compiled:
http://lxer.com/module/db/viewby.php?uid=120&sort=120&offset=0&dbn=14

No one is arguing that Linux preinstalled options are as plentiful as Windows preinstalled options.

If you don't mind buying Windows preinstalled, then buy it preinstalled. But if you really don't want Windows on principle, then don't buy Windows. Sure it isn't the path of least resistance, but that's how life is. If you have principles you want to stand by, it requires a little inconvenience, whether that means seeking out an obscure vendor, buying a configuration that isn't quite what you want, paying a little more, or spending endless hours pursuing a refund you probably won't get.

[blur xc]

The list has already been compiled:
http://lxer.com/module/db/viewby.php?uid=120&sort=120&offset=0&dbn=14

No one is arguing that Linux preinstalled options are as plentiful as Windows preinstalled options.

If you don't mind buying Windows preinstalled, then buy it preinstalled. But if you really don't want Windows on principle, then don't buy Windows. Sure it isn't the path of least resistance, but that's how life is. If you have principles you want to stand by, it requires a little inconvenience, whether that means seeking out an obscure vendor, buying a configuration that isn't quite what you want, paying a little more, or spending endless hours pursuing a refund you probably won't get.

Yeah, I've been going down that list and it's pretty pathetic. A great many of those links are broken (company out of business?), or have crap websites, and doing a search on their site for "linux" comes up w/ nothing. So, either you have to call in and talk to a sales person or what, I don't know. One of them, don't recall which one, charges $188 for Win 7 home premium, and $150 for Ubuntu. Woo hoo... Another I found, looked like nice notebooks, didn't offer any linux preinstalls that I found, but did sell notebooks w/o any os installed. None of them have the convenience of popping into my local best buy and picking out a computer I want, either.

BM

[aysiu]

None of them have the convenience of popping into my local best buy and picking out a computer I want, either. I agree with you.

See my post above.

Either suck it up and buy Windows or be prepared for some inconvenience. You're arguing with a straw man, not me.

[snowpine]

It is certainly unethical. It inhibits fair market competition. Customers get lower quality products as a result.

[snip]

Ubuntu users don't have to agree to support Ubuntu's purpose at all -- in fact, we are all free to disagree and support Microsoft (or any other corporation with questionable ethics) if we please. At the end of the day, just remember that Microsoft doesn't offer such freedom willingly -- only by threat of the law, which "impedes" Microsoft's cancerous "business model" of domination and control.


Buying a Dell computer with Windows pre-installed is a strange form of protest against these perceived injustices.

[ethanay]

Buying a Dell computer with Windows pre-installed is a strange form of protest against these perceived injustices.

Sarcasm noted. I don't believe that anyone ever said that purchasing a Windows system is in itself an act of protest. Wiping the software from that system and installing FOSS is an act of protest (and, fortunately, an act of sanity).

Rightfully requesting a refund for unused OS that was forced on me with the computer purchase is an act of protest. If enough people did it, Dell would pay more attention and re-evaluate their one-sided relationship with Microsoft, because they would have more leverage.

I've asked this before and I'll ask it again here: If anyone knows where to buy affordable modern laptops that are built to spec (so I can ensure compatibility) and have option for no OS, please let me know. I will support that business instead of pulling teeth from Dell.

There are many ways to support the Ubuntu mission through hardware/software purchases, few of them are convenient, and the ones that are convenient are not affordable for my family. So as it stands, we will continue to pursue a refund from Dell.

[aysiu]

I've asked this before and I'll ask it again here: If anyone knows where to buy affordable modern laptops that are built to spec (so I can ensure compatibility) and have option for no OS, please let me know. I will support that business instead of pulling teeth from Dell. Your profile says pacific northwest. So you can probably try ZaReason or System76.

[snowpine]

Newegg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&SubCategory=773&N=2010030773&SpeTabStoreType=1) has a few options.

[ethanay]

Your profile says pacific northwest. So you can probably try ZaReason or System76.

Thank you! Prices for the laptops from both ZaReason and System76 are much more expensive and lower specs than comparable Windows machines...frustrating! Additionally...if I were ever to replace my current laptop (Dell; was a gift), I do not see any with firewire :(

However, my dad has a clunky old, failing Pentium 4 XP tower in his office that desperately needs to be retired. He wants a small, quiet, efficient alternative. The system76 Meerkat would be a great alternative to a Dell desktop. I will let Dell know that as well :P

"We were going to buy a desktop from you as well. However, you refuse to offer a small refund on *unused* Windows Vista as per the Vista EULA, and you refuse to acknowledge that you have given refunds in the past. We will purchase the desktop from a different vendor. We are also letting friends and family know about the hassle of Dell and are recommending alternative vendors."

[ethanay]

Back on topic...This looks like a great resource for dealing with Dell:
http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040

Wish I had known about it at the beginning of the process!

[RedRat]

I would remind those here who complain about the higher cost of the Linux machines from Dell, that Dell does provide a specialized Ubuntu installation (currently 9.04). Dell Engineers add appropriate drivers and other things to that disk. Furthermore, Dell does offer Linux help at the Linux Help Desk (NOT the regular tech service help center). It does a reasonable job of providing quality computers and it does offer Ubuntu. Dell also maintains a forum and wiki site for Linux users. All of this does cost money. Dell is not a charity for Linux.

[ethanay]

How fortunate is it that Dell doesn't have to provide drivers or tech support for Windows? Because it's not a Windows char...oh, wait...:p

Dell basically rebrands generic hardware and ensures that it all plays nice, right? Which is why you can buy a computer from them with some standard specifications and can be ensured of compatibility at the time of purchase. Except you have to pay for Windows on top of that.

Just checked: Dell Inspiron 15 (Windows) is $20 less than 15n (Ubuntu). Same hardware specs. Dell XPS Studio 13 with Windows is $105 less than with Ubuntu, with a faster processor and modern wireless-n card, and many more upgrade options. You MUST buy a monitor with the 537s Ubuntu computer.

Maybe there is a justification for the higher cost of Ubuntu computers. But Dell disagrees (http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS9933912441.html). Seems to me that people who buy Dell Ubuntu computers are still paying something like a Windows tax. Maybe Dell is in contract to buy wholesale one Windows per computer it produces.

Listen, it's not all Dell's or even Microsoft's fault. There are plenty of us ignorant customers out there as well who would see a lower-priced "barebones" system, jump on it without thinking, and then complain/return the system to Dell either because
a. they assumed it would be operational "out of the box" or
b. they didn't think about compatibility issues and bought hardware anyway just assuming it would work

But there is more then enough funny stuff happening behind closed doors to overshadow, exploit or even perpetuate (http://blogs.computerworld.com/14687/microsofts_latest_linux_lies) customer ignorance.

My terminal seems to be non-responsive...let me try this again
sudo topic restart