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Neil_The_Newbie
November 8th, 2009, 05:58 PM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?

munchen800
November 8th, 2009, 06:04 PM
I still wont use anything else. The bugs will be fixed. I haven't upgraded yet but will give it a try in a month or so. Ubuntu has great support and they are listening. Ubuntu will be king for a long time still, long after all this chaos is over.

ashishmalik10
November 8th, 2009, 06:06 PM
I don't think so.
There has been issues with previous releases as well but every release tends to make a better product. Although a professional opinion will be generated after some time when it be tested completely.
Just wait some time and we'll see.

For me 9.10 Karmic rocks......

bluelamp999
November 8th, 2009, 06:12 PM
There's been articles like this one popping up - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/11/03/karmic_koala_frustration/

So I think it has rattled Ubuntu's rep a little.

However, for me, it's been the best release ever - flawless install and everything just works...

Neil_The_Newbie
November 8th, 2009, 06:42 PM
Personally I am not sure what Ubuntu's testing process is (ignorance on my part). Maybe it just needs more people to participate at the testing stage?

Hosmion
November 8th, 2009, 06:44 PM
Those things happen a lot with new releases.. They will be fixed, and we will move on to our next upgrade :D..

So sit back and watch the magic happen :popcorn:

robtg
November 8th, 2009, 07:19 PM
After a fresh install of 9.10 on my system76 laptop, things were buggy enough that I scrapped the install and went back to 9.04. Canonical seems to be providing Ubuntu final releases that are better than beta but not as good as a release candidates.

This review of 9.10 sums up exactly the way I feel:

http://www.dedoimedo.com/computers/ubuntu-9-10.html

And another opinion which is a bit harsh maybe but not too far off the mark:

http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7600/1.html

Canonical's 6-month release cycle is beyond crazy. All it does is introduce new bugs along with some really great wallpaper. Ubuntu needs less gizmos and more stability.

darthmob
November 8th, 2009, 07:24 PM
I would say it's business as usual.

Cr0n_J0b
November 8th, 2009, 07:45 PM
I have to say the the install process had me start looking for another distibution. This was a complete failure in my mind. The install process is one of the most important pieces of a release, as it's often the first user experience with the product. As such, it needs to a) work, b) work in a way that is understandable c) be well documented. For me the one big issue was the DMRAID stuff that still completely boggles my mind. There is something wrong with the basic setup partitioning system...a very bad place to have things go wrong.

raymondh
November 8th, 2009, 07:47 PM
This happens at most every release. Wait a few weeks for the updates.

I still think/believe Ubuntu (and its' derivatives) is/are the best linux distro around.

Neil_The_Newbie
November 9th, 2009, 12:09 AM
i think on the next release i will wait for a couple of weeks before upgrading.

overdrank
November 9th, 2009, 12:11 AM
Moved to The Community Cafe

Frak
November 9th, 2009, 12:17 AM
See sig.

Naiki Muliaina
November 9th, 2009, 12:19 AM
Half the negative stuff ive read has come from people who are rattling sabers and would have been negative regardless of how awesome Karmic is / was. Doesn't matter what was fixed they would have found faults all the way.

Ubuntu's rep hasnt been damaged by the release, Ubuntu's rep may have been damaged / hindered by the saber rattlers.

Seishuku
November 9th, 2009, 12:20 AM
I honestly don't know why people are so frustrated with Karmic. Jaunty was a lot more difficult for me.

My Karmic fresh-install experience was flawless. I would say that most people who are having problems with 9.10 are upgraders, and upgrades aren't exactly reliable in terms of compatibility.

cariboo907
November 9th, 2009, 12:27 AM
I think the bigger harm is done by people installing Karmic, trying it, finding something that doesn't work as expected, then reinstalling Jaunty, then saying it doesn't work with out actually listing the problems they ran into.

In most cases, the problems people are running into can be repaired in minutes, just by using google to search the forums.

hoppipolla
November 9th, 2009, 12:29 AM
I think it's actually been improved. Based on the idea of "All publicity is good publicity" :)

Far more people know about Ubuntu now, and most of the problems with 9.10 are fairly common to desktop Linux at this point in time, so that would have happened anyway.

Anyone who gets curious and looks at the site will see a cool looking OS :)

I think if anything, this period has helped get the OS out there :)

hoppipolla
November 9th, 2009, 12:30 AM
See sig.

please, please, please, please go here: http://www.sevenforums.com/

Frak
November 9th, 2009, 12:32 AM
Ubuntu's rep hasnt been damaged by the release

If popular opinion, i.e. "What the columnists think", is that Karmic was a flop, it doesn't matter how good it was, the viewer opinion will consider it a flop, whether they tried it or not.

Ubuntu is getting a dose of the Vista flu this time, and I think it can do some good for the development as a whole. It's time to convince others that Ubuntu can stand up to the plate the next release, much that Microsoft is doing now with 7.

Xomm
November 9th, 2009, 12:38 AM
If ANYTHING's damaged Ubuntu's rep (9.10 or otherwise), It's Dell and Apple.

Dell:

Their Ubuntu Customer support seems awful.

See: http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19300868.aspx


Apple:

From the same article, it's the dreaded iTunes issue (No single best workaround available for the average user).

Frak
November 9th, 2009, 12:40 AM
Based on the idea of "All publicity is good publicity" :)

If you're marketing a TV show, and it gets such reviews as "Awful, vulgar, I don't know why people would watch this, It's very controversial." That's good publicity.

I need something to work 100% every day, and this thing is touted as bad because it barely works? I'll never use that.

Marketing 101

wojox
November 9th, 2009, 12:48 AM
That's a Big NO

oldsoundguy
November 9th, 2009, 12:51 AM
Really do not know what the MS employees are complaining about.
Installed flawlessly on two boxes that were running 8.10 and the improvements were noticeable the moment I re-booted.

The one thing .. it takes less time to boot including sign in than it takes for the POST and the NVida splash screen to load.

Program management has improved vastly. The installation procedure for script files change really is nice! All you have to do is install Ubuntu Tweaks and most of your repository and third party repository issues are over.

Yes, a couple of issues .. but the same damn issues that have been around SINCE 8.10 came out or even earlier .... Logitech web cam (legacy stuff) cross program usability and the inability to edit hardware files since the loss of xorg.conf in favor of hal.

gordintoronto
November 9th, 2009, 12:55 AM
For me, Karmic fixed the bugs in Jaunty.

Regenweald
November 9th, 2009, 12:56 AM
Looking forward to the LTS, this release HAD to be a technology push. If they were conservative with Karmic, then all of the new tech would have had to be introduced and completed in the Lucid cycle which simply would not have been enough time for testing an LTS. Also, the LTS would have remained largely the same for the next 2 years, so it's important to squeeze in all of the cutting edge bits now and sort them out for Lucid, else the LTS users would be stuck with a severely outdated desktop.

Karmic is what it is, but with a little forward thinking, it really makes sense.

SunnyRabbiera
November 9th, 2009, 01:00 AM
EXT4, GRUB 2 and pulseaudio are all still very new, all could be seriously improved by lucid

Frak
November 9th, 2009, 01:00 AM
Really do not know what the MS employees are complaining about.

I put my tinfoil hat on, so I should be ok.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 01:07 AM
Half the negative stuff ive read has come from people who are rattling sabers and would have been negative regardless of how awesome Karmic is / was. Doesn't matter what was fixed they would have found faults all the way.

Ubuntu's rep hasnt been damaged by the release, Ubuntu's rep may have been damaged / hindered by the saber rattlers.

Totally agreed and people should stop bitching about six months release cycle in Ubuntu, for all of them, there is good old LTS, stick to that. Why stop progress, if Ubuntu doesn't get to try out new stuff every six months, it would stagnate like other distros. It still is number one on the distro chart and there is a reason for that.

I had trouble free upgrade on my PC as well as thirty one other PCs at the place I run as a training center. All those PCs were on Jaunty and now were upgraded to Karmic. Sure there would be issues while upgrading but then long release cycle OS like Windows too suffer from it. Just take a look at the myriads of issues confronting those who are upgrading to Win7 from XP.

Joe_Strummer
November 9th, 2009, 01:13 AM
I don't think 9.10 has damaged Ubuntu's reputation. However, I do think that Ubuntu is being damaged by people who expect it to be something that it is not and then badmouthing it.

On the other hand, I also think that Ubuntu's reputation is being damaged by those who don't bother with anything else but Ubuntu or researching other distros besides Ubuntu (i.e. Ubuntu = Linux, Fedora ≠ Linux) and therefore appear narrow minded.

hoppipolla
November 9th, 2009, 01:15 AM
If you're marketing a TV show, and it gets such reviews as "Awful, vulgar, I don't know why people would watch this, It's very controversial." That's good publicity.

I need something to work 100% every day, and this thing is touted as bad because it barely works? I'll never use that.

Marketing 101

Yeah but more people are still aware of Ubuntu now, which is great. I mean I mention it to people and they have actually HEARD of it, which feels weird and is a positive step in my opinion :)

Besides, the media bash everything, so I'm not too shocked or bothered.

Frak
November 9th, 2009, 01:49 AM
Yeah but more people are still aware of Ubuntu now, which is great. I mean I mention it to people and they have actually HEARD of it, which feels weird and is a positive step in my opinion :)

Besides, the media bash everything, so I'm not too shocked or bothered.

But it's a terrible first impression to make. As for media bashing everything, the media will praise anything that earns them a higher paycheck.

Sloppyunderfoot
November 9th, 2009, 02:04 AM
Not at all. Is there any new version of an operating system that comes off the line that works perfectly for everyone? I went from 8.04 to 9.10 with a fresh install. I love the feel and look of 9.10. Ubuntu just keeps getting better.

hoppipolla
November 9th, 2009, 03:05 AM
But it's a terrible first impression to make. As for media bashing everything, the media will praise anything that earns them a higher paycheck.

To be honest the problems people have had with Karmic are fairly typical of Linux on the desktop at the moment, coupled with the experimental bits and pieces that will be honed probably in time for Lucid.

To be fair it really doesn't bother me too much personally or concern me, as this is not when Linux on the desktop will truly shine, that will arise with Lucid and the successive releases over the next few years IMO. I'm just happy that Karmic got the attention that it did, and advanced so much over Jaunty :)

JDShu
November 9th, 2009, 03:08 AM
Ubuntu barely has a reputation to damage in the first place.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 03:14 AM
Nope Ubuntu has no rep, its after all not a paid hyped OS recycling old garbage in a new fancy shell and then forcing users to upgrade at a considerable cost.

I would rather Ubuntu have no rep than the rep of the other paid OS ;)

Jhongy
November 9th, 2009, 03:42 AM
What is this nonsense?

K.Mandla
November 9th, 2009, 03:49 AM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?
No.

And to be perfectly honest, all the negativity has gotten old.

blueshiftoverwatch
November 9th, 2009, 03:49 AM
Every Ubuntu release is "the worst ever". I barely even pay attention to user reviews for any piece of hardware/software anymore for that and similar reasons. It's like the Seagate vs Western Digital debate where each side will claim that they installed X number of the competitors brand hard drives and all of them failed so now they're only sticking with Y brand.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 03:55 AM
There are some good reviewers with proper perspective and approach and their criticism is constructive and objective and then there are those fly by night just writing for writing's sake. They would usually run it live or in virtual mode and pass a long stated judgement. Some would write that they don't see anything new, I guess the word NEW is one of the most over rated in these kind of reviews. What is the definition of the word NEW is beyond my understanding.

MasterNetra
November 9th, 2009, 03:55 AM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?

No.

wiredone
November 9th, 2009, 03:58 AM
no way..i'm gonna reload 9.04..i can't complain..im not computer saavy enough point any fingers..i appreciate everybody's collective efforts...its fun..i lost a doors album but that's one for the team.

Irihapeti
November 9th, 2009, 04:07 AM
Remember the OpenSSL vulnerability of about 18 months ago? Now, THAT's real reputation-damaging publicity - in that instance, for Debian. Some were predicting its demise, others that there'd have to be a fork for the Debian concept to be continued, and yet others that developers would be jumping ship in droves (or am I mixing my metaphors here?) Last time I looked, about 5 minutes ago, Debian was still there.

Compared with all that, the current brouhaha is a storm in a teacup. It will last until the next great shock-horror arrives.

23meg
November 9th, 2009, 04:27 AM
Short answer: Ubuntu's prospective new users in the five-year scale, for the most part, are either oblivious to, or smart enough to filter the current "bad press", which is unavoidable.

A prediction: in the course of the next ten Ubuntu releases, give or take two, the mainstream "IT" websites will have learned that trollumnism (http://bethesignal.org/blog/2009/11/05/trollumnist/) hurts themselves more in the long run than it hurts Ubuntu, or whatever they feel like senselessly bashing to make a few more advertising dollars this week. It will be mostly an economical change in the climate of ad brokers, not an ethical one on their part.

Ping me up and point me to this post in a few years, and we'll compare how Ubuntu is doing to how the "bad press" of the Karmic era is doing reputation-wise.

jeb800e
November 9th, 2009, 04:55 AM
I think 9.04 damaged Ubuntu's reputation more than any other version..... it ran so nicely with just a select few of computers, the rest were left in the dust until 9.10 came along and those people had to do a fresh install, as you can't uprade directly from 8.04 or 8.10 to 9.10.

anselm
November 9th, 2009, 05:48 AM
For me 9.10 didn't work out, slow internet, screen freezing up but I blame that on Intel mostly.


Back with 8.04 until the next LTS release. LTS upgrades are the only ones I will be doing from now on.

joeykuds
November 9th, 2009, 06:24 AM
As other posters have said, it's a question of getting those bugs fixed, which shouldn't take longer than a few weeks.
Personally, my experience with the upgrade was a breeze and it actually solved some issues I was having vs. creating any, so I am very pleased with Karmic. Good job Ubuntu! \\:D/

wilee-nilee
November 9th, 2009, 07:15 AM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?

A intangible question.

kansasnoob
November 9th, 2009, 06:41 PM
I didn't even respond to this because it's a rather ridiculous poll!

Now, Karmic has not been very stable for me. The same was true of Intrepid and pulse audio drove me nuts for the first few months of Hardy.

Gutsy had been incredibly stable for me and I'd done quite a little distro-hopping before I ended up there. So, when pulse audio in Hardy started driving me batty I decided why not a multi-boot?

I was already dual-booting with Win XP so I decided to give it a whirl! I've been multi-booting ever since then - currently Win XP, Jaunty (which has been incredibly stable), Mint Gloria, and Lucid which was Karmic until yesterday.

I love the six month release cycle! Will every single release be happy with my hardware? NO!

Will I like every new feature? NO!

BUT IMHO Ubuntu is still the best and I've tried in the neighborhood of two dozen different distros!

phrostbyte
November 9th, 2009, 06:42 PM
No.

vexorian
November 9th, 2009, 06:47 PM
It is always the same story with every release, even since the beginning of time, really. 9.04 had as many bugs and as many overreacting guys as it... So, this did not even damage ubuntuforum's reputation which has always been wrong due to the overreaction to bugs...

What changes of course is the people who get the bugs. In 8.04 I was one of the poor nvidia guys that had to install drivers manually due to a new bug. But in 9.04, it got reverted and it was the guys with Intel video cards that had the issues :)

mivo
November 9th, 2009, 07:14 PM
I voted for "a little", but I don't tbink it's a problem of 9.10 per se. I believe the issue is that dist upgrade has been flawed, or practically broken, for two years now and the general advice is to "just do a clean re-install". Having to do this every six months, if you want current software and new features gets old fairly fast.

Sure, you can (and should) have a separate /home, and you can make a list of your applications, etc., but it is still a hassle and takes time. It's fine the first time you do it, even the second time, but then many reach a point where they ask, "Why am I doing this every six months?". My solution was to switch one Ubuntu machine to a rolling release distro, and my primary work desktop runs Windows 7. I still have an Ubuntu box, but if this trend continues, it is likely to eventually get switched to another distro.

In my opinion, fixing or re-doing dist upgrade so that the large majority of people can just click "upgrade" every six months, keep their settings and applications, and have an updated system, should be the #1 priority for 10.4. Just like Service Packs in Windows. Unless that can be achieved, I don't consider Ubuntu to be ready for an average user's desktop.

But I have said this for a long time now ... and all we get is more unstable additions and, oh, eye candy.

nothingspecial
November 9th, 2009, 07:51 PM
Sure, you can (and should) have a separate /home, and you can make a list of your applications, etc., but it is still a hassle and takes time. It's fine the first time you do it, even the second time, but then many reach a point where they ask, "Why am I doing this every six months?".

One command before you boot into the live cd.

15 mins to install (in my experience it takes a lot longer to upgrade)

Three more commands and everythings back to how it was, but updated.

If you discount the download time it`s quicker an no more difficult than upgrading.

Now if they could automate that system ......... hey, I`ve just had an idea ;)

gn2
November 9th, 2009, 07:53 PM
A few people have problems with every release, it's no big deal and 9.10 is far less problematic than some earlier releases were.

issih
November 9th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Amongst experienced users - no

Amongst new users, potential new users and users lacking in computer savvy - yes (because they won't investigate beyond the initial issues/bad press)

Amongst the wider linux community...sort of. Those who are technically minded won't really even blink, but there are members of the wider linux community who hate ubuntu (mostly because any arbitrary allegiance is easier to hold onto if you invoke hatred). That reactionary section of the community will seize upon the bad press and present it as gospel truth, and proof of all that is "Wrong" with ubuntu...but they will do that with whatever they can find...and it should be disregarded as white noise.

So on balance.. its reputation has been tarnished a bit, but that is mostly as a result of rubbish lazy journalism and internet trolling than any technical shortcoming.

It will be fine..

bluelamp999
November 9th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Looking forward to the LTS, this release HAD to be a technology push. If they were conservative with Karmic, then all of the new tech would have had to be introduced and completed in the Lucid cycle which simply would not have been enough time for testing an LTS. Also, the LTS would have remained largely the same for the next 2 years, so it's important to squeeze in all of the cutting edge bits now and sort them out for Lucid, else the LTS users would be stuck with a severely outdated desktop.

Karmic is what it is, but with a little forward thinking, it really makes sense.

This is a very good point, IMO.

maflynn
November 9th, 2009, 08:20 PM
I voted a little, but canonical needs to be careful with new releases of ubuntu. They need to focus on quality not just features. Besides some of the features touted in 9.10 are questionable. Faster boot times? One of the advantages linux has over windows is the fact you don't need to reboot it. I'd rather have a stable system then shave 30 seconds off my reboot.

23meg
November 9th, 2009, 08:27 PM
But I have said this for a long time now

If, instead, you'd like to actually contribute to the effort towards getting a better success rate in release upgrades, your help is more than welcome. Here are concrete steps you can take that will help:

Perform the upgrade test cases for the desktop (http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/DesktopUpgrade) and server (http://testcases.qa.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerUpgrade) variants whenever milestone releases are available, report (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs) any bugs you may find, and add the appropriate tag to them (for upgrades from Jaunty to Karmic, that would be "jaunty2karmic").


Perform general "ISO testing (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Procedures)" before milestone releases (more information here (http://ubuntutesting.wordpress.com/2009/09/21/old-friend-iso-testing-tracker/)).


Participate in Ubuntu testing days (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/UbuntuTestingDay/), and/or feel free to join #ubuntu-testing on IRC (https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat) or the testing and discussion forum (http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=377) for the current development branch at any time and ask how you can help.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 08:35 PM
I voted a little, but canonical needs to be careful with new releases of ubuntu. They need to focus on quality not just features. Besides some of the features touted in 9.10 are questionable. Faster boot times? One of the advantages linux has over windows is the fact you don't need to reboot it. I'd rather have a stable system then shave 30 seconds off my reboot.

Good point but you see, desktops are now being phased out by laptops, increasing number of PC buyers now upgrade their desktops for laptops and its that crowd which appreciates a faster boot.

maflynn
November 9th, 2009, 08:55 PM
Good point but you see, desktops are now being phased out by laptops, increasing number of PC buyers now upgrade their desktops for laptops and its that crowd which appreciates a faster boot.

True, but given the choice, I'd rather have a stable system then a faster booting computer.

wilee-nilee
November 9th, 2009, 09:01 PM
Without reading all the posts I saw one that suggested that experienced users no, but with a new user or somebody not willing to investigate the whole linux thang yes.

The funny thing about a experienced user are; I was at my college down loading W7 and I had my usb Karmic installer with me, I noticed another guy with the same model so I talked with him. It turned out that he was familiar with redhat and knew what grub was. He had XP on the net-book, and I showed him the thumb and explained it was the ISO formatted to a thumb for live use or install. He didn't even blink before he popped it in and installed karmic. He knew enough to know that no matter what he did he could fix it. the net-book has a recovery partition if he removed the Karmic to just reload or he could get a thumb of the XP cd and run fixmbr.

The easiest Linux conversion I have ever seen, he had seen the light in a system that has some advantages over the main common OS, but also limitation. All OS have their advantages, and it is really nice when you can run them in a virtual or partitioned separately, for ease of use.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 09:03 PM
True, but given the choice, I'd rather have a stable system then a faster booting computer.

I agree but then for stability, I would tilt my head towards the LTS releases.

PryGuy
November 9th, 2009, 09:05 PM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?Sounds like someone's trolling here again. Sorry if I'm wrong...

Neil_The_Newbie, what problems exactly do you mean?

Small_Nuke
November 9th, 2009, 09:09 PM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?

No, not at all. Anyone who has used Ununtu before knows that new releases usually have bugs that are not ironed out at first. Plus it's not like there's plenty of other distros including older versions of Ubuntu to use while you wait.

mivo
November 9th, 2009, 09:14 PM
Good point but you see, desktops are now being phased out by laptops, increasing number of PC buyers now upgrade their desktops for laptops and its that crowd which appreciates a faster boot.

Laptops are the weakest spot of Linux, however. Few laptops are fully supported, with suspend/hibernate, mic, camera, LEDs, card reader, wireless, etc. working. Also, W7 boots very fast on my desktop. It isn't slower than Ubuntu on my other, comparably specced desktop.

Arup
November 9th, 2009, 09:17 PM
Laptops are the weakest spot of Linux, however. Few laptops are fully supported, with suspend/hibernate, mic, camera, LEDs, card reader, wireless, etc. working. Also, W7 boots very fast on my desktop. It isn't slower than Ubuntu on my other, comparably specced desktop.

Actually the System 76 and Dell laptops with Ubuntu have everything working right out of the box. Having seen them both in action and used them as well, can tell you, there are no issues there. I have Xubuntu on my ancient Vaio and UNR on my ASUS EeePC and face no such issues regarding sleep etc. I shut down anyways instead of using hibernate or sleep.

ElSlunko
November 9th, 2009, 09:21 PM
I said a little, only because it's release was so public. Other than that it felt like the same old bumpy road from upgrades that are usually seen in these forums, just multiplied by the amount of users (I think anyways, I could easily be wrong ;P).

oldsoundguy
November 9th, 2009, 09:32 PM
Remember that nobody pisses and moans when things go right! With several MILLION linux users, weigh the complaints against those figures.
Also look at the computer SKILLS of those complaining.
The "Hi, I'm a noob and I can't get Ubuntu to work on this machine that crashed on me when I was running Windows" type of complaint.

Then there is the desktop vs laptop issue. Since most developers use DESKTOPS to work with and write their code (because of the POWER of a desktop alone to process numbers) Desktops will most likely work more often than a 5 year old laptop that you blew the dust off to TRY the system.

mivo
November 9th, 2009, 09:43 PM
Actually the System 76 and Dell laptops with Ubuntu have everything working right out of the box.

System 76 is small and expensive, and Dell charges more for Linux-preloaded systems, and doesn't make it easy to find a laptop without Windows. (They were more enarmoured with Linux two years ago, and their enthusiasm seems to have cooled down signficantly.)

My netbook (HP Mini 2140), my old laptop (Dell Inspiron 8500) and newer laptop (Samsung R510) all have various issues. Things have improved over the past couple years, but whether a laptop is fully supported by Linux (it's mostly a kernel and driver issue, so it's not Ubuntu-specific) is still hit or miss. There are also some obscure brands out there.

Well, I don't mean to sound pessimistic, as I don't really doubt that hardware support will improve. I just don't see it as a real advantage for Linux that people switch from desktops to laptops. Desktops seem much better supported.

vexorian
November 11th, 2009, 01:52 PM
My Acer Aspire one D250 got everything working out of the box with karmic, and it turns to be a fairy recent netbook.

VertexPusher
November 11th, 2009, 02:19 PM
Remember that nobody pisses and moans when things go right! With several MILLION linux users, weigh the complaints against those figures.
Also look at the computer SKILLS of those complaining.
Bull...t!

Those who complain are the ones who care. For everyone who comes here to complain about e.g. broken sound in Karmic, there are a dozen others who don't bother and just go back to Windows.

If you do a fresh install of Jaunty, then use Network Manager to set up a DSL connection, then upgrade to Karmic, the network connection will be broken, with no way to fix it other than the terminal. How is that a result of a lack of skills? In fact you need skills to make things work again that should not break in the first place. And again, lots of people won't bother. They will just return to Windows with the impression that Linux is even more broken.

In a world of 1 percent market share without significant growth, lack of feedback doesn't mean that everything is fine and dandy. It means that people get burned and leave.

Tristam Green
November 11th, 2009, 03:51 PM
If popular opinion, i.e. "What the columnists think", is that Karmic was a flop, it doesn't matter how good it was, the viewer opinion will consider it a flop, whether they tried it or not.

Ubuntu is getting a dose of the Vista flu this time, and I think it can do some good for the development as a whole. It's time to convince others that Ubuntu can stand up to the plate the next release, much that Microsoft is doing now with 7.

An astute observation, frak.

Also, raise your hand if you didn't see the poll going the way it currently is.

Posting a question that may cast an OS in a negative light, on that OS's very forums, and expecting anything but a biased (yes, biased. It's like asking if Windows 7 is a failure on the TechNet forums, or if Snow Leopard is a failure on Apple's forums) answer? For shame, neil_the_newbie. For shame.

Ask this very question on an independent, OS-agnostic forum, and see what the results are. Margin of error will be lower with the more users there are actually answering the poll.

Now, for my take:

I delved back into Linux and Ubuntu in particular in late 2007 with 7.10 Gutsy. Since then, I've upgraded every 6 months like a good little Tuxophile, and I'll say straight up: Ubuntu hasn't been the same since 8.10 Intrepid.

Intrepid was the pinnacle of Ubuntu-dom for me, and Jaunty was the real failure, especially with the lack of support for ATI "legacy" cards that weren't even two years old yet. That's shameful. So shameful, in fact, that I have absolutely zero interest in trying out 9.10 - I have high hopes that Canonical will get its stuff straight and actually do what it claims it can, but I keep my expectations way lower now.

fela
November 11th, 2009, 03:54 PM
You must remember that if something gets more attention, it gets more attention, it doesn't matter whether it's because of a bad release or a good one (although good is favourable of course). I think the KK release has put Ubuntu much more in the spotlight than it was. The bugs don't matter; they can be fixed. What matters is getting the knowledge into people's heads that Ubuntu exists and is a viable alternative to Windows.

mivo
November 11th, 2009, 08:03 PM
The bugs don't matter; they can be fixed. What matters is getting the knowledge into people's heads that Ubuntu exists and is a viable alternative to Windows.

If what they get into their heads is "Ubuntu = full of bugs, many things don't work", then that "knowledge" will persist much, much longer than the bugs that yielded the extra attention will be around. Negative PR isn't always better than no PR at all. First impressions matter.

tuebinger
November 11th, 2009, 08:08 PM
Ubuntu 9.10 has actually been the best version to date for my laptop. It feels the most polished so far. I've had no connection issues and all my programs work flawlessly. I'm surprised that so many people are having issues.

oldsoundguy
November 11th, 2009, 08:14 PM
Ever cross your mind that some of the complaints are from MS employees PAID (or not) to come on to the forums and stir up trouble and place bogus posts?

After all, it appears that the only buyers of Win7 are those running Vista that want to dump the system!

xx58
November 11th, 2009, 08:17 PM
:rolleyes: I like Ubuntu 8.10. Everything just was working and no problems. Ubuntu 9.04 I just don't like. Much problems. Ubuntu 9.10 have some problems, but let see 6 month from day?
New Ext4, new Grub2, so we will see. It is not bad. Remastersys working now with 9.10 too. Good.

uberdonkey5
November 11th, 2009, 08:17 PM
+1 to robtg

ChrischanM
November 11th, 2009, 08:26 PM
I don't have so much to compare, I used 9.04 only for some days. But in general it's difficult to recommend 9.10 to Non-Linux-guys and mention all the current bugs I'm on.

Artificial Intelligence
November 11th, 2009, 08:27 PM
Every Ubuntu release is "the worst ever". I barely even pay attention to user reviews for any piece of hardware/software anymore for that and similar reasons. It's like the Seagate vs Western Digital debate where each side will claim that they installed X number of the competitors brand hard drives and all of them failed so now they're only sticking with Y brand.

+1

Seen it since 5.04 when everybody jumped from 4.10
It's like an old record we have to hear every sixth month. It's just part of the life-cycle I guess. Every OSs/distros have doom-prediction-fortune-tellers.

Entertaining nontheless, like watching the same old Christmas movies on the TV year after year :popcorn:

blairm
November 11th, 2009, 08:31 PM
Don't think Ubuntu's reputation has been harmed a great deal by Karmic, but having said that I think this release has been more troublesome for me than the previous ones I've used (Feisty upwards).

The main issues were sound and browsing speed issues.

Yes, I've pretty much ironed those issues out now, but I'm hoping the next release is a bit better.

Blair

slumbergod
November 11th, 2009, 08:41 PM
Those things happen a lot with new releases.. They will be fixed, and we will move on to our next upgrade

Sometimes it feels like Canonical moves on to the next version BEFORE they finish fixing the bugs with the last one.

I'd like a statement from Mark Shuttleworth about the perception that Karmic is the buggiest release so far. He is forward-thinking and has great plans for Ubuntu but sometimes you need time to consolidate progress and make it more stable. I wonder what he thinks.

aysiu
November 11th, 2009, 08:42 PM
It's not the release of 9.10 that's damaged Ubuntu's reputation.

It's the incessant and unwarranted complaining about 9.10 that's damaged Ubuntu's reputation.

More details here:
Putting the bad press about Karmic in perspective (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1316155)

There are certainly people experiencing problems with Karmic, but Karmic actually appears to have a better success rate than the other previous four releases.

youbuntu
November 11th, 2009, 08:44 PM
FUDmasters will pick any story to cause a sensation. So what?. I'm a Mac user 99.9999% of the time, and I am used to almost perfect and worry-free computing. I recently started getting back into Ubuntu, having abandoned it for 3+ years, and i am *FAR* from disappointed - it works PERFECTLY so far, and if I have issues, I will pursue them and probably reach a solution. I am so impressed, that I am considering ridding my Mac mini of Snow Leopard for a month, to see how I get along with ONLY Ubuntu installed.

This is pure FUD.

Move alone, nothing to see here.

mivo
November 11th, 2009, 08:49 PM
Ever cross your mind that some of the complaints are from MS employees PAID (or not) to come on to the forums and stir up trouble and place bogus posts?

Yes, all the problem reports in the support sections, as well as all the numerous bug reports in Launchpad, are from MS employees. Everyone who has posted about issues and problems, is a troll, a MS employee, or otherwise disreputable.

So, are you on Canonical's payroll? Are you aiming for a staff position? What is your agenda that you follow by denying the obvious issues of 9.10? ;)

subdivision
November 11th, 2009, 08:51 PM
Yes, all the problem reports in the support sections, as well as all the numerous bug reports in Launchpad, are from MS employees. Everyone who has posted about issues and problems, is a troll, a MS employee, or otherwise disreputable.

That is clearly the case. Everyone knows Ubuntu is Perfect.

youbuntu
November 11th, 2009, 08:52 PM
Do we NEED to act like children?.


Bottom line: noone is forcing you to use it - it's not like Ubuntu is life-saving medicine. If you like it and are happy with it & know the possible pitfalls, great - use it and enjoy it. If you don't, DON'T.

There, simple really.

23meg
November 11th, 2009, 09:01 PM
FUDmasters will pick any story to cause a sensation.

Because they feed on sensation. FUD, mudslinging, trying to annoy people so that they click on your story and read it, makes money.

Does it sound far fetched that the likes of Information Week and The Register are bashing Ubuntu (or any other notable technology phenomenon that's popular this week, for that matter) in an effort to make more dollars on ad impressions?

Watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SAWDYaWAVQQ

That's how it works. These people make money, make a living, float their companies, whatever you call it, by trolling. It's their job (http://bethesignal.org/blog/2009/11/05/trollumnist/).

mivo
November 11th, 2009, 09:08 PM
Bottom line: noone is forcing you to use it - it's not like Ubuntu is life-saving medicine. If you like it and are happy with it & know the possible pitfalls, great - use it and enjoy it. If you don't, DON'T.

Except that this is not the subject of this topic.

I believe the "shut up or leave" attitude that you express is counter-productive and hinders progress. It is healthy that some issues are finally getting more attention. Many of the problems are caused by old bugs not getting fixed and new ones being added. Ubuntu needs a consolidation release where nothing new is added and only old bugs are fixed.

hoppipolla
November 11th, 2009, 09:09 PM
You must remember that if something gets more attention, it gets more attention, it doesn't matter whether it's because of a bad release or a good one (although good is favourable of course). I think the KK release has put Ubuntu much more in the spotlight than it was. The bugs don't matter; they can be fixed. What matters is getting the knowledge into people's heads that Ubuntu exists and is a viable alternative to Windows.

2nded :)

mavros
November 11th, 2009, 09:12 PM
I only know 9.04 and 9.10 and would say that 9.10 has brought me very close to switching from Windows to Ubuntu completely on all PC-s. Especially sound seems much easier to use when you switch from PC internal to external 5.1 sound card to headphones. I also appreciate the pst import possibility in Evolution.

On an HP5101 netbook I will probably make the switch as everything works including 3D effects and I have have the impression that i get about 45 minutes to 1 hour more out of the battery with Ubuntu than with XP. Two points which make the switch still impossible for my Acer laptop. I haven't found any way to make its finger print reader work at start-up or for root access nor the external USB WinTV card (unfortunately the HVR900H one).

So no reputation damage an improvement.

Ex0suit
November 11th, 2009, 09:18 PM
Even though Mandriva has taken #1 according to Distwoatch, Ubuntu is better, and will reclaim #1 :)

VertexPusher
November 11th, 2009, 09:48 PM
Ever cross your mind that some of the complaints are from MS employees PAID (or not) to come on to the forums and stir up trouble and place bogus posts?
If you are looking for a possibly Microsoft-sponsored submarine operation designed to damage Linux, consider this one: http://www.pulseaudio.org/

If I was Steve Ballmer, I would invest in those guys. Cheaper than the SCO Group, and much more toxic.

Brian Vaughan
November 11th, 2009, 09:54 PM
Of course there are some problems with Ubuntu 9.10, immediately after the upgrade. That happens with any major upgrade to any significant chunk of software. Look at the message boards for any software product immediately after a major patch has been released. People who didn't have any particular problem with the new version regard it as continuous with the prior version, and don't see much need to comment on it; people who have a problem complain about it.

misfitpierce
November 11th, 2009, 09:57 PM
I chose no, not at all. Only people that will put yes are those who give up easilly. Those are the people that should stick with LTS releases to avoid this! It had new technologies that had to be pushed out before next LTS. They did the right thing and it works fine for me and tons of others, even friends of mine not online. So I think it is a great release and this release can only improve on the new technologies and such.

The End of The World
November 11th, 2009, 10:07 PM
I dont actually have Ubuntu 9.10 (lol), but i do however, have UNR 9.10 on my netbook, (currently downloading Ubuntu 9.10 for my play laptop :popcorn: ), which is nearly the same, and it seems pretty awesome...and from the reveiws and videos etc...id say it looks pretty awesome ;) awesome. how many times have i said awesome? lol

but no, until reading a few of the replys HERE i havent heard anything said bad about Ubuntu 9.10 (except by wind*ws users lol - but theyre always trying to find reasons why they think wind*ws is better :o )

teh603
November 12th, 2009, 03:10 PM
Sometimes, everybody bites off more than they can chew. Plus there's nothing wrong with porting back to Jaunty (not to be confused with linux-modules-backports-jaunty) from Karmic. I'll be here when Lucid comes out, and I'll see if I want to upgrade then.

Perturbed Penguin
November 13th, 2009, 12:55 AM
I do think it would be wise to switch Ubuntu's release schedule to once a year, I just don't see any need for 6-month release cycles... it is almost overwhelming sometimes to be out of date in such a short amount of time. This would give the devs a good solid amount of time to put things together and a bit extra time for beta-testers to jump on board and do more testing before the final release. ...just my opinion though and Karmic works great for me, I'm loving it more than any Ubuntu previously!! Best of luck to those still having problems!

hoppipolla
November 13th, 2009, 01:08 AM
If you are looking for a possibly Microsoft-sponsored submarine operation designed to damage Linux, consider this one: http://www.pulseaudio.org/

If I was Steve Ballmer, I would invest in those guys. Cheaper than the SCO Group, and much more toxic.

but I've never had a bad experience with PulseAudio ._. At least not since being on KDE, I can't speak for Gnome as I never use it..

ibutho
November 13th, 2009, 01:15 AM
There certainly are a lot of negative sentiments about 9.10 on the web. I think the QA and testing processes need to be improved or more people need to help iron out bugs before a release.

Arup
November 13th, 2009, 01:17 AM
System 76 is small and expensive, and Dell charges more for Linux-preloaded systems, and doesn't make it easy to find a laptop without Windows. (They were more enarmoured with Linux two years ago, and their enthusiasm seems to have cooled down signficantly.)

My netbook (HP Mini 2140), my old laptop (Dell Inspiron 8500) and newer laptop (Samsung R510) all have various issues. Things have improved over the past couple years, but whether a laptop is fully supported by Linux (it's mostly a kernel and driver issue, so it's not Ubuntu-specific) is still hit or miss. There are also some obscure brands out there.

Well, I don't mean to sound pessimistic, as I don't really doubt that hardware support will improve. I just don't see it as a real advantage for Linux that people switch from desktops to laptops. Desktops seem much better supported.

Strange, I have no issues with my ancient vaio except for the brightness button which is insignificant, I would have regular issues with Windows power management refusing to shut down the screen from time to time but none with Ubuntu. Same goes for my latest Panasonic Toughbook which runs like a dream on Ubuntu.

Kunkles
November 13th, 2009, 01:17 AM
I had some wireless issues yes, but after asking the right questions I finally found someone who knew what they were talking about and were willing to help.

Karmic has been great so far

Arup
November 13th, 2009, 01:18 AM
but I've never had a bad experience with PulseAudio ._. At least not since being on KDE, I can't speak for Gnome as I never use it..

hoppipolla,

If I am not mistaken, KDE doesn't use Pulse but I maybe wrong. Seriously though, I have not faced any issues with Pulse and I am thankful for Linux support for my Yamaha sound card, without it this wonderful and very expensive pro card would have ended up in garbage.

Radioman991
November 13th, 2009, 05:28 AM
I voted Yes, a lot.

User since 7.04. Until KK, every version has been an improvement. KK basically made my Acer Aspire One unusable. Slow choppy screen draws, horrible sound, and no workarounds, like the ones I had found for JJ on the AAO (1366 x 768 resolution, for example).

Ubuntu installed on 5 pcs and 1 server. One AAO netbook was enough for me not to blow up the wife's netbook with KK.

Your mileage may vary.

-pk

toxicpoison
November 13th, 2009, 05:38 AM
i don't think ubuntus any worse than any of the other top linux releases, In the last month I've fideled with Debian, Fedora and mandriva . Trust me when I say they have alot more problems than ubuntu. Bottom line I always end up back to Ubuntu. so to answer the question, No I don't think ubuntu's rep. has been damaged in any way what so ever.

Neil_The_Newbie
November 14th, 2009, 12:56 AM
Hmm.. My thread seems to have caused a stir. My own thoughts (from someone who is very pro Ubuntu and a big fan of the Open Source philosophy) is that the 6 month release cycle is too frequent. I think a 12month cycle would be better and allow time for more testing. But thats just my opinion and my personal feedback. If computers are here primarily as a tool to allow us to do things better and quicker then for the most part robustness and stability take precedence over new features. For some 9.10 has been a smooth transition for others its bought issues. I had no agenda in posting the poll - just wanted to see what others thought and its been intersting to follow the debate.

For me - I'll be sticking with Ubuntu.:)

starcannon
November 14th, 2009, 01:05 AM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10?
End users are not system installers. Those having issues had issues in every other OS they used. The problem with "free" is that many don't value it, and refuse to pay to have it set up correctly to begin with.

9.10 has been in my opinion the best release yet. We use Ubunt GNU/Linux exclusively here at my house, 5 netbooks, 3 desktops, all went with out a hitch.

aysiu
November 14th, 2009, 01:06 AM
For some 9.10 has been a smooth transition for others its bought issues. The same can be said of any Ubuntu release--just sub in 9.04 for 9.10 or 8.10 for 9.10.

If you look at the upgrade/install experience polls for the last five releases, 9.10 actually looks to have the highest success rate. (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1316155&highlight=bad+press+perspective)

fidelandche
November 14th, 2009, 02:14 AM
For me I would have to say yes a little for my laptop but no for my partners laptop. But after reinstalling 9.04 after I broke 9.10 and upgraded from the upgrade manager, 9.10 now works out of the box. NO SLOW browsing, NO SOUND issues, even the S-cable I nearly tossed in the bin because it would not work with vista works!!!

If you look at techsupportforum, I have noticed after the release of Win 7 in one week the amount of BSOD posts people were posting, I think if I remember correctly that one user of win 7 had 20, yes 20 BSOD in one day!!!! and that was just upgrading from xp!!!!

Has this damaged M$ rep?? I do not think so, as alot of people on this thread have pointed out that the release of 9.10 has not really damaged Ubuntu.

If it was me running the company, I would focus more on getting Ubuntu to be seen as not just for 'geeks' and I am not one.

So to sum up for myself, it appears to me that most new releases of ANY OS do have problems/bugs in the first few weeks but they are soon sorted and the press will continue to slate that OS no matter what. I mean look at the report done by the BBC they did not think much of 9.10 but what OS did the reporter use at work ?? It will be an M$ one, so perhaps it is just because it is something new and a bit cutting edge, that the general press will slate it because they just do not understand/get it /like it.

I mean how many people are scared of newer and better things? Just look at the cavemen and fire!!

END

oldsoundguy
November 14th, 2009, 02:34 AM
I had an issue with stability on one machine and it lost the mouse for some unknown reason .. did another clean install and UPDATED FIRST. Added Ubuntu Tweaks to the repositories (followed their directions) let the dust settle and then went in and did my customization INCLUDING a issue I had with screen rotation that did NOT want to work. Works now!

ALL is solid as a rock now , streams beautifully, plays audio to the point of ear pain, is BLAZINGLY FAST on a 2.4 P IV and multi tasks better than any build yet. BUT this is a DESKTOP .. not some proprietary hardware laptop that needs all kinds of tweaking to even turn on!

NintendoTogepi
November 14th, 2009, 02:37 AM
I don“t think so!

BrMBr
November 14th, 2009, 02:43 AM
i think on the next release i will wait for a couple of weeks before upgrading.

That's the idea.

jerrylamos
November 14th, 2009, 02:46 AM
No, not at all. Ubuntu's reputation with me is not running reliably on my 1 gHz IBM Thinkpad R31 nor my 2 gHz IBM ThinkCentre A30.

When Ubuntu has things right, both these are comfortably usable systems.

When something's broken on Ubuntu it stays that way for 2 to 6 months or so. What breaks?? Video. Sound. Performance. You name it. Just look at launchpad.

Then the "Dread Update" hits me right between the eyes. Ow!

Rhetorical question, does anyone ever test updates before they go out?? How many of you have been broken by "Partial Updates?"

Yep, Ubuntu is what I use since Dapper Drake Beta. Just keep lots of partitions around for when one breaks.

Jerry

markbuntu
November 14th, 2009, 03:04 AM
If you want to be sure your hardware is supported, make a little partition, put an alpha on it and run it in your spare time and file lots of bug reports. If you want a stable working system all the time, wait six months after release.

mikeymouse
November 14th, 2009, 03:27 AM
9.1 is great. I have installed it on my laptop and everything works just fine.
I have installed it on my desk top system and it works fine. I have had no problems with it.
Actually 9.04 was the first system that i could install on my laptop and everything worked, no fixes everything just worked.
I could not ask for a better system..
mikeymouse

Mike'sHardLinux
November 14th, 2009, 03:40 AM
This is the first release in a while that has given me the most issues, but still, overall, it is fantastic. I especially like the improvements in boot time and even more so, shutdown time. I also like all the eye candy that is so easy (even easier) to add. compiz-fusion, gdesklets, etc....

On the other hand, I ended up removing pulseaudio and still cannot play [encrypted] DVDs ...ya, and please don't suggest installing libdvdcss2....for crying out loud!!!! geez

Overall, though, I love Karmic!!!!

SLEEPER_V
November 14th, 2009, 03:44 AM
It seems that every 'upgrade' has initial install issues. When I 'upgraded' to 9.04 it wouldnt boot and I had to do a fresh install. When I 'upgraded' to 9.10 it wouldnt boot and I had to do a fresh install. In between the 'upgrade' and fresh install, I tried Windows 7. I really liked it, it seemed more pulled together, but I kept getting random reboots which is not acceptable, hence the fresh install. I like 9.10, but not as much as Win7.

To answer, I think everytime there is an 'upgrade' it damages Ubuntu's reputation with people who dont have the time to fix it, ie, the 'I just need it to work' crowd.

lewk
November 14th, 2009, 03:54 AM
I upgraded an Asus eee 900 fom jaunty jackolope. All went well save for no quit button. "alt+f2" or a momentary push of the power button works fine though. Perhaps a nine month cycle for releases would make the deb derivative crowd feel more like mature OS users, rather than "torqued to the edge" windows beta testers! Get to the middle of the bell curve UBUNTU !!!!!

Dok
November 14th, 2009, 03:57 AM
9.10 is working great for me. It even fixed the problem of not turning the computer off at the end of a shutdown. For me it is the least buggy version yet. I did a fresh install as always.
Dok

J-Buntu
November 14th, 2009, 04:14 AM
Damaged how ? I think anyone who bashes a free OS is the sort of person who is never likely to try it anyway. I've only had minor problems. I'm very happy with Ubuntu.

BrMBr
November 14th, 2009, 04:15 AM
It seems that every 'upgrade' has initial install issues. When I 'upgraded' to 9.04 it wouldnt boot and I had to do a fresh install. When I 'upgraded' to 9.10 it wouldnt boot and I had to do a fresh install. In between the 'upgrade' and fresh install, I tried Windows 7. I really liked it, it seemed more pulled together, but I kept getting random reboots which is not acceptable, hence the fresh install. I like 9.10, but not as much as Win7.

To answer, I think everytime there is an 'upgrade' it damages Ubuntu's reputation with people who dont have the time to fix it, ie, the 'I just need it to work' crowd.

Offtopic: what a cuuuuuuuuuuuuuute dog!!! :KS

macogw
November 14th, 2009, 05:10 AM
Personally I am not sure what Ubuntu's testing process is (ignorance on my part). Maybe it just needs more people to participate at the testing stage?

Yes, but many people seem to assume if they test RC and report bugs, these bugs will 1) be considered release critical 2) magically disappear during the week til release. In truth, you're going to need to report the bug during alpha if it's not the sort of thing that is going to prevent releasing at all. Also, fixing the bugs yourself works well.

RealG187
November 14th, 2009, 05:13 AM
I have had problems everytime I upgraded Ubuntu. That's why now I just stick with what I have and know is working. Since older versions have been out longer everyone knows the fixes and stuff.

With that being said, I am using 9.10 in VM Ware and it seems to work fine.

papangul
November 14th, 2009, 07:19 AM
I just stick with what I have and know is working.
You proove to be a man of character, it's really hard to resist the temptation to upgrade once a new release becomes available.

Nerd King
November 14th, 2009, 07:37 AM
Tbh Karmic's excellent. It's really pretty, very nicely put together, and when you start to look at the work Canonical put into taking Gnome and making it something better and cooler it's actually kinda amazing. I can't run it sadly due to my wireless not liking the 31 kernel (28 is just fine so I'm on Jaunty, and I don't fancy fiddling with kernels thanks) but that's an upstream problem as it works fine on every other kernel version but any distro using 31 is causing lock-ups. Hopefully a fix will come out soon enough. In the meantime Jaunty works like a charm so I'm pretty sorted really.

murderslastcrow
November 14th, 2009, 08:01 AM
I don't have any problems. Linux has never given me much grief at all.

I think every release you see a lot of people talking about minute problems, since people don't really go to support forums to talk about how seamless, easy, and problem-less their installation was.

So I think these problems are largely exaggerated with this release in particular. They've improved a lot over Jaunty, and hopefully nothing like the Intel problems with the previous release will crop up again in the future. Looks like a very good, solid step forward to me. Ready for primetime! (my friends and family are always incredibly impressed by it, so much so that more than half of them have switched over of their own accord, calling me once or twice just to set up some basic programs or tell them how to activate hardware drivers)

So yeah, I don't think this is ruining Ubuntu's reputation at all. Being the most popular Linux distro, you'd think there would be more people complaining.

mivo
November 14th, 2009, 01:52 PM
Yes, but many people seem to assume if they test RC and report bugs, these bugs will 1) be considered release critical 2) magically disappear during the week til release.

These continued attempts to somehow blame the users for 9.10's rushed release state get a little tiresome. Canonical employs 200 paid developers. Many other distros have fewer or no paid developers, do not release bug-riddled versions, and do not constantly blame the users for allegedly "not testing" (which Launchpad proves to be an inaccurate statement). In my opinion, you are making excuses.

23meg
November 14th, 2009, 02:17 PM
These continued attempts to somehow blame the users for 9.10's rushed release state get a little tiresome. Canonical employs 200 paid developers. Many other distros have fewer or no paid developers, do not release bug-riddled versions, and do not constantly blame the users for allegedly "not testing" (which Launchpad proves to be an inaccurate statement). In my opinion, you are making excuses.

Regardless of how many paid developers and what kind of workforce you may have, it makes sense not to make substantial changes to the code you'll be shipping in one week, barring absolute showstoppers that have been triaged. It's well known and clearly stated that the bug fixing focus will get more and more conservative towards the end of the release cycle, especially past feature freeze. And that's essentially what macogw stated.

If you have any technical arguments as to why it may be the wrong way to go, the burden is on you to present them before blaming people for "making excuses".

Arup
November 14th, 2009, 02:19 PM
I was just over at the Mandriva forum, I suggest all should pay a visit there and see the nightmares some are going through upgrading or installing Mandriva's latest which is indeed among their best offerings till date. Its not just Ubuntu, its part of a new distro, Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva or Win7.

Ubu2009
November 14th, 2009, 02:36 PM
With so many users having issues with sound and slow internet access etc do you think Ubuntu's reputation has been damaged by the release of 9.10? I have none of this issues you talking about. 9.10 is the best Ubuntu release EVER. I love it :D

ikt
November 14th, 2009, 02:41 PM
I was just over at the Mandriva forum, I suggest all should pay a visit there and see the nightmares some are going through upgrading or installing Mandriva's latest which is indeed among their best offerings till date. Its not just Ubuntu, its part of a new distro, Ubuntu, Fedora, Mandriva or Win7.

So maybe it's time to consider 'updating' the 'upgrade' methods for linux overall, surely there's a more better way to do it than go through this every release.

Though I had no failures and everything went perfect for me :(

arashiko28
November 14th, 2009, 02:57 PM
Not from my exact point of view, where I consider myself a half experienced Linuxer and therefore can handle a some sort of problems. Every release need a couple of twitches to work the way we want, but hey, at least you can ask and will be answered, you have about a million people around the world willing to help waiting absolutely nothing on return. For me it didn't worked I had a serious kernel oops that gave a huge headache, how ever, I went back to 9.04 which has been perfect from start and voilą!

From the other side, a new user that finds the same problems as I did, will get horribly frustrated and just go and rant about being a waste of time and bla bla bla...

I'm happy with 9.04 and waiting for 9.10 problems to be solved to make a clean install again. :D

Old Marcus
November 14th, 2009, 03:11 PM
I voted a little, but canonical needs to be careful with new releases of ubuntu. They need to focus on quality not just features. Besides some of the features touted in 9.10 are questionable. Faster boot times? One of the advantages linux has over windows is the fact you don't need to reboot it. I'd rather have a stable system then shave 30 seconds off my reboot.
Also, some people do pay their own electricity bills, so can't afford to have their computer running 24/7.

mivo
November 14th, 2009, 03:54 PM
It's well known and clearly stated that the bug fixing focus will get more and more conservative towards the end of the release cycle, especially past feature freeze.

There were critical bugs, such as the USB modem issue, that got down-rated as "medium", and as such, they would not delay the release. 9.10, the 10 standing for October, was released at the very end of the month, and had been heavily announced and hyped in the weeks prior.

The issues were known, Launchpad was and is packed with bug reports, so to me, it seems quite obvious that meeting the release schedule is of far higher importance than putting out a polished product without glaring issues. These forums, as well as the site, heavily promoted 9.10 as soon as it hit, once again recommending the unreliable and, in my opinion, practically broken upgrade feature. There were no warnings that this may break a system, or that users may wish to wait a few weeks for more fixes. No, it was all, "GET IT NOW!!".


If you have any technical arguments as to why it may be the wrong way to go, the burden is on you to present them before blaming people for "making excuses".

If you start a week before release looking into major bugs, then yes, you are perfectly right. You are also right that if you introduce bugs into the RC that weren't present in 9.04, the beta and the alpha, then again, you are right. I disagree however that the USB modem issue is not critical enough to delay the release, or at least warn people, instead of hyping them into installing a new release that did and does have known issues. Where's the "known issues" link on the "GET IT NOW!!" banners and pages?

I also read her post differently than you. The way I read it, and still do read it, is that this is more of the "You could've tested the beta and the alpha, and if you didn't, why are you whining?" lines. She didn't put it like this, and I don't want to put words into her mouth, nor am I a mind reader, but that is how the message was received on this end of the line.

Now, even if she didn't mean it that way, it's still a common "argument" on these forums. Here's why I feel that it doesn't cut it:

Ubuntu deliberately aims at the type of people who are not computer-savvy, to the "use a computer like a toaster" audience. A distro like Arch or Slack or Gentoo can fall back on the "test it or shut up" line. They are genuine "from users, for users" distros, without employees. Ubuntu cannot. Canonical wants to compete with MS and Apple on the desktop, so QA is the company's responsibility, and Canonical does have the man-power and the resources to do this properly.

Joe User is not suited for doing competent QA (yet they are the most strongly affected by issues and bugs), because even if they know what doesn't work, they lack the knowledge to figure out the reason for it. What happens to bug reports that don't include any details beyond the observation of what isn't working?

The Kubuntu developers didn't have a problem admitting that there are issues (http://www.kubuntu.org/news/timelord), and that they are self-inflicted. I don't understand why the people who represent the "flagship" distro seem to have a much harder time facing some of the issues frequently brought up here. It is also about credibility. I have to say the Kubuntu developers definitely impressed me.

While I don't actually enjoy being on this end (which is easily mistaken as negative) of a discussion like the present one, I'm also glad that this is being discussed, and it's my sincere hope that the situation will improve. Ubuntu is the one distro that has the community, the reputation (though slightly damaged now, I feel) and the philosophy to bring Linux to more desktops.

aaronchall
November 14th, 2009, 06:33 PM
So, I'm holding off my 9.10 install (i'm going to upgrade, just to see how it works out, then I'm just going to wipe and reinstall everything.)

I don't think Ubuntu is targeting the "non savvy." I think it is targeting the "non Masters in C.S., but still wants to have a computer system that doesn't break for inexplicable reasons, and once fixed, doesn't inexplicably rebreak." Apple targets the "I just want to push a button (and I'll pay for it) crowd." Microsoft targets the "I just want to run an OS that everyone else has crowd." I just wanted to weigh in here, since we were discussing the targeted customer of Ubuntu, and I've been taking a marketing class where clearly defining the customer is of great importance.

The above brings me to an important distinction between MS and Ubuntu. MS's OS's seem to continuously degrade in performance. Install and uninstall programs, and as time goes by it slows to a crawl. Ubuntu seems to just get better (apart maybe from the version changes). If you install it with no issues, it will continue to have no issues. If you have issues, and fix them, they remain fixed.

It would seem to me that a fresh install or new-version install would lose whatever workarounds or modifications one has made, as well as possibly create new issues. I'm ok with this, personally, because I love learning about my computer and how the software works with the hardware, and how the OS works with the other software components. If I installed Ubuntu on my family's computers, however, I would keep them perpetually on the same version, so a LTS distribution would be best for them. I figure by the time the next distribution comes out, I'll be ready to start putting them on it, so maybe I have good timing, but perhaps I'll need to wait about a month for any kinks to get ironed out. I've been waiting myself for 9.10. I'll be ready soon, but I have to work on a couple of papers...

Aaron

supermelon928
November 14th, 2009, 06:39 PM
Also, some people do pay their own electricity bills, so can't afford to have their computer running 24/7.

Definitely true. If anything, faster boot time would encourage me not to leave my computer on so much. Not having to reboot the OS is kind of a different matter entirely.

praveenthivari
November 14th, 2009, 06:43 PM
Hi friends,

Read almost all posts here. I am of the opinion that Ubuntu's image is NOT tarnished by this.
I have read of being linked it to Vista, but I bet it is needed in distributions like this. I am new to ubuntu but just want to say that stability, improvements and user satisfaction wont go together. Now, for example, if it wasn't for better look and feel of Karmic I never would have looked on this side of world. I really appreciate the work behind such an OS. (Even with certain things not working for me right now). But there are people who care for getting work done than any look or feel, for them it would be disaster if features were given at cost of their work.

So, in the end it becomes a tremendous load over people working on OS to look into both groups and satisfy both. But I feel that right now Ubuntu is doing the right thing by incorporating latest and improved features first and then trying to solve the problem one by one. After all 6 mts release cycle is for that purpose. And if I wanted strict stability then I would go with LTS (It's like playing cricket were more big hitter you are, the more you are liked and the more u rely on stability the lower order u go. You cant be a big hitter and stable at same time).

Wat I wanted to tell in nut shell is this: We cant have both stability and new features at one go. It takes time to bring them unison(ie. to remove bugs). But it takes time and by that time a new advancement is made and that is incorporated and the cycle goes on and on and on........

Bucky Ball
November 14th, 2009, 06:45 PM
Whatever reputation loss that occurs from a newbie installing 9.10 and having a nightmare would be adequately restored were they to load 8.04 LTS. Rock solid and I wouldn't use anything else (but my machines can't go down).

I waited over 6 months after its release before I upgraded to 8.04 and will do the same for the next LTS release.

mivo
November 14th, 2009, 06:58 PM
Whatever reputation loss that occurs from a newbie installing 9.10 and having a nightmare would be adequately restored were they to load 8.04 LTS.

That is an option if you are content with old software versions. 8.04 LTS doesn't even have FF 3.5. Thankfully it also no longer has Firefox 3.0 Beta 4 that it shipped with (a LTS release).

Bucky Ball
November 14th, 2009, 07:01 PM
Mivo, and it is also rock solid stable for production machines and easy enough to upgrade Firefox. Would I load 9.10 right now when 99% of the threads on the forums are about its problems? Yes, they will be fixed eventually, and that is fine if you have hours on your hands to tweak and fix when an upgrade breaks something or presents you with another unexpected surprise. :)

But it does need to be used to be fixed. Don't get me wrong there. Just my machines being unstable is not an option and the LTS support is ideal. I think 9.10 is 18 months.

mivo
November 14th, 2009, 07:27 PM
Oh, I am not recommending 9.10 to you, and I agree that your approach is much smarter than updating as soon as new version is released. I just think there are downsides to the LTS releases, too. Thing is, if you start to manually add or update software, in a way you defeat the purpose of running a LTS in the first place.

witeshark17
November 14th, 2009, 07:35 PM
I vote not at all. As many have pointed out, new releases have issues. The upgrade was very smooth in my case over all :popcorn:

23meg
November 15th, 2009, 03:48 PM
There were critical bugs, such as the USB modem issue, that got down-rated as "medium", and as such, they would not delay the release. 9.10, the 10 standing for October, was released at the very end of the month, and had been heavily announced and hyped in the weeks prior.

The issues were known, Launchpad was and is packed with bug reports, so to me, it seems quite obvious that meeting the release schedule is of far higher importance than putting out a polished product without glaring issues. These forums, as well as the site, heavily promoted 9.10 as soon as it hit, once again recommending the unreliable and, in my opinion, practically broken upgrade feature. There were no warnings that this may break a system, or that users may wish to wait a few weeks for more fixes. No, it was all, "GET IT NOW!!".

It's indeed quite obvious and clearly stated that Ubuntu follows a time based release model (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases), where even short release delays don't happen unless there are multiple high-impact bugs which have been triaged, that aren't feasible to fix with stable release updates. Ubuntu is also popular, and every release gets "hyped" a while before and after it happens.

These two facts, together, still don't mean that people must install a new Ubuntu release on release day. If you think that's a problem, you may want to do some advocacy in that direction.

And if you'd like to help towards a future with a better success rate on release upgrades, I had listed some concrete steps you could take in a previous post in this thread (http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=8280357#post8280357).

Matt Zimmerman's (Ubuntu Technical Board member and CTO) "Ubuntu quality: or, “but what about my bug?” (http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2008/10/29/ubuntu-quality/)" is also good reading on this topic.


If you start a week before release looking into major bugs, then yes, you are perfectly right. You are also right that if you introduce bugs into the RC that weren't present in 9.04, the beta and the alpha, then again, you are right.

Both of these statements are unsubstantiated until you point to evidence proving that they have indeed been the case.


I disagree however that the USB modem issue is not critical enough to delay the release, or at least warn people, instead of hyping them into installing a new release that did and does have known issues.

You may have a different definition of what constitutes a "critical bug", to which you'd be entitled. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance lists the current Ubuntu criteria.

If by "the USB modem issue" you mean bug #446146 (https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/446146) (it's always a good idea to cite specific bugs when talking about "issues"), it seems it was not triaged before the release, or even the RC, which means that it wasn't known clearly whether it was a genuine bug, and it's not a good idea to cite untriaged potential bugs in the release notes. It's now fixed with a stable release update.

On the note of "hyping": Every Ubuntu release will have known issues, and yet every Ubuntu release will be "hyped". There will be no flawless victory.


Where's the "known issues" link on the "GET IT NOW!!" banners and pages?

If you think the release notes page should be easier to find in the "visit ubuntu.com and grab an ISO as soon as possible" case, which sounds like a valid concern to me, please file a bug report in ubuntu-website (http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug).


Now, even if she didn't mean it that way, it's still a common "argument" on these forums. Here's why I feel that it doesn't cut it:

Ubuntu deliberately aims at the type of people who are not computer-savvy, to the "use a computer like a toaster" audience. A distro like Arch or Slack or Gentoo can fall back on the "test it or shut up" line. They are genuine "from users, for users" distros, without employees. Ubuntu cannot. Canonical wants to compete with MS and Apple on the desktop, so QA is the company's responsibility, and Canonical does have the man-power and the resources to do this properly.

This approach assumes that Canonical is the sole controller of Ubuntu, and is the entity that sits on top of everything, while a community of freeloaders consumes its products, which is wrong. Ubuntu has many times more volunteer developers, QA people and testers than paid ones, and blaming Canonical whenever you're dissatisfied with the outcome is not the way to go. QA is not Canonical's responsibility; it's the responsibility of the whole community.

If we are to delegate responsibility of release quality entirely to a certain company, we might as well be passive proprietary software consumers.


Joe User is not suited for doing competent QA (yet they are the most strongly affected by issues and bugs), because even if they know what doesn't work, they lack the knowledge to figure out the reason for it.

But experienced users, dedicated testers and bug triagers, of which we also have many, are.


What happens to bug reports that don't include any details beyond the observation of what isn't working?

They get triaged, which involves lots of manual labor, which fortunately is amended partly by Apport / ubuntu-bug. There's indeed a lot that can be improved with this process, but then it also constantly happening.


The Kubuntu developers didn't have a problem admitting that there are issues, and that they are self-inflicted. I don't understand why the people who represent the "flagship" distro seem to have a much harder time facing some of the issues frequently brought up here.

Where exactly do you get the impression that "people who represent the "flagship" distro" have a hard time facing Ubuntu's issues? This is a genuine question, not a challenge to your point.


It is also about credibility. I have to say the Kubuntu developers definitely impressed me.

You seem to be fixated on grandiose acts of "coming out", as in "OK, we admit, Ubuntu has significant issues!", and seem to think that unless some kind of revolutionary masterplan is advertised loudly, no improvement is being made to the processes.

If, however, you were to look in depth at the various QA and development-related mailing lists, blueprints and UDS sessions, where constant and significant changes to the way Ubuntu is maintained are discussed and planned, you'd be pleasantly surprised at the amount of "facing issues" that goes on. I invite you to do so.


While I don't actually enjoy being on this end (which is easily mistaken as negative) of a discussion like the present one, I'm also glad that this is being discussed, and it's my sincere hope that the situation will improve. Ubuntu is the one distro that has the community, the reputation (though slightly damaged now, I feel) and the philosophy to bring Linux to more desktops.

It's discussed all the time. The trick is to discuss it in the right place, with the right people, and with an attitude focused on solving specific, well defined problems.

Ylon
November 15th, 2009, 03:55 PM
Evolve mean that your reputation is going to be damaged. Much easy make what everyone else is doing.



Ubuntu is continuing evolving thanks to many people efforts: making the evolution (make things "unstable"), and turn it back to normal people (fixing for "out of box" solution).

If you haven't the income of "tax" every PC on this planet (as Microsoft is doing with Windows), this is the best way to improve your project.

mivo
November 15th, 2009, 07:15 PM
Ubuntu is also popular, and every release gets "hyped" a while before and after it happens.

I referred to the official announcements done on this site and the official site. I realise that you are not responsible for any external "marketing".


Both of these statements are unsubstantiated until you point to evidence proving that they have indeed been the case.

The references were posted here several time, including Launchpad links. I will make sure I bookmark them in the future, but I'm not going to spend significant time to track down the statements of players who tested the beta and then suddenly found new, significant bugs in the RC. They seemed credible to me, and they have little reason to make this up. Your request for links is understandable, though, and if I had a good idea how to find the posts again within a reasonable amount of time, I would do so.


If you think the release notes page should be easier to find in the "visit ubuntu.com and grab an ISO as soon as possible" case, which sounds like a valid concern to me, please file a bug report in ubuntu-website (http://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-website/+filebug).

See, this doesn't seem like a bug to me, but a deliberate decision (marketing?). It's not really the release notes that are hard to find, either, it's the absence of some sort of "disclaimer" that new releases may cause problems and a visible recommendation to run the Live CD first to ensure that the hardware is still fully supported. Perhaps something about backing up /home, too. (Does the graphical installer recommend/create a separate /home partition? I think I last used it in 7.04 or so when it didn't do that, but have been using the alternate discs since, so this may have been added.)

I honestly don't know how you can add something like, "Dist upgrade is likely to break your system", though, without looking rather bad. Are there plans to improve the reliability of the upgrade feature? Has it been considered to remove it, or at least add a disclaimer when the button is pressed, until its success rate seems higher? (You will probably ask for percentages here, and I cannot offer them, but I can say that since Dapper I never had this work for me, on any box, which seems to be a common experience -- most people recommend a clean install.)


QA is not Canonical's responsibility; it's the responsibility of the whole community.

Ubuntu is less of a community project than distros assembled and maintained by distros that don't have a company with employees behind them, though. There also seems a little less influence. This isn't to say that it isn't also a community project, since there are plenty of ways to contribute. But since there is a company behind the distro that does pay 200 or so developers/employees, I feel that crucial tasks, such as QA, should be one of the chief priorities of Canonical. It would really be in their own interest, too. Users can help, and should help (if they can, cf. my previous comment about the target audience), but relaying too much on the user base to do proper and efficient QA is dangerous.


Where exactly do you get the impression that "people who represent the "flagship" distro" have a hard time facing Ubuntu's issues? This is a genuine question, not a challenge to your point

I generally see very little critical statements from "red names", or really form anyone who has more official ties to the distro or Canonical. (Considering something else you said, though, it is possible that I look in the wrong places.) I want to stress that this is not an accusation. I do respect those who volunteer their time, skill and energy, and actually, I would extend this to paid employees, too, as you can't really work on a project like this without having a vision and going the extra mile all the time. I never worked in a job where money was the driving force for me, and I feel it is the same for anyone at Canonical.

Still, there are so many threads and problem reports, and rarely do I see any kind of acknowlegment that perhaps, yes, there have been some not so great decisions, and that there are areas that need improvement. I do see statements (not so much from you) that seem a little "apologetic" in nature, along the "oh, this happens every new release, so really, no big deal" line.


You seem to be fixated on grandiose acts of "coming out", as in "OK, we admit, Ubuntu has significant issues!", and seem to think that unless some kind of revolutionary masterplan is advertised loudly, no improvement is being made to the processes.

Are you admitting it? Come on, do it! ;) (Just kididng here.)

It boils down to "honesty" (too strong a word -- "openness" is closer to what I mean) and communication. Or perhaps only communication. If you are working on improvement of the processes or have plans to tackle the upgrade feature, why not talk more about it with the community? The Kubuntu devs didn't really "come out" and didn't post a lot of details, but they acknowledged the situation, without any downplaying (and they weren't in any way "pathetic" either). The important part was that everyone now knows they are aware and working on it, which greatly calms the waves. I've always found that this works really well with customers and that people are super understanding if things are explained and they get reassured that yes, indeed, we're working on it.


It's discussed all the time. The trick is to discuss it in the right place, with the right people, and with an attitude focused on solving specific, well defined problems.

This forum here is the "main window" to the world, though. Or at least I think so. It seems to be read more frequently than the lists/etc, so perhaps it might be beneficial to put out regular summaries of what's going on in the more "behind the scenes" places. Just a few brief points, with links to where further information can be found. Could be a banner, or even just an announcements like the "malicious code" one.

Thanks for the constructive exchange, by the way. It is appreciated.

ikt
November 24th, 2009, 02:04 PM
Ubuntu is also popular, and every release gets "hyped" a while before and after it happens.

Indeed, shows up as a big bump on the chart:

http://www.google.com/trends?q=ubuntu%2C+windows+7%2C+os+x